[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[BSWP]

Oh, sorry if it was! I searched on the peterverdone link, and nothing came 
back up from this list. Just thought it was pretty funny trolling.

- Andrew

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:12:53 AM UTC-8, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> Seems to me this one was beaten to death in an earlier thread... but it's 
> got a certain zombie-like resilience...
>
> rod
>

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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[John Phillips]

I want a "Garbage Pail Bike" patch to go next to my "Just Ride" patch!

Thank you Andrew, you made my day! I must have missed this the first time 
round.

John "Garbage Pail Hunqapillar", Berkeley ( I love it when people try to 
dis' my hometown! ) 



On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:02:56 AM UTC-8, BSWP wrote:
>
> Humor is where you find it.
>
> http://www.peterverdone.com/?p=7511
>
> - Andrew "fresh Jack Browns", Berkeley
>

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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Wayne Naha]

This 'comfort' he speaks of.  I do not think it means what he thinks it 
means.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 6:58:55 PM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Well crap, it appears I was wrong all along. Clearly what I need is a 
> plastic bike from China!

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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Ron Mc]

Second time this has gone around.  First time, I got into a conversation 
with him about it and ended up blocking him.  He's sold on Chinese Giant, 
and his riding position is what the world needs.  

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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

Free speech and markets and choices and whatnot. 'Merica!

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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Garth]

   What's that saying ... "one persons trash is another's treasure" ?


This is not really true . .  .. it's All treasure and there is no other ! 


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[RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[JohnS]

If this guy is a designer, then he really doesn't get the concept of, *the 
devil is in the details*. His bullet list of reasons as to why the bike is 
all wrong, are actually, when used together produce a harmonious and 
enjoyable ride. If one were to take anyone of these design features and put 
them on the Giant, it most likely won't work well, just as most of the 
design details on the Giant won't work well on a Riv. Please note, that 
some of us do use some of the features on the Giant, but overall our Rivs 
are very different from the Giant.

JohnS


On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 12:02:56 PM UTC-5, BSWP wrote:

> Humor is where you find it.
>
> http://www.peterverdone.com/?p=7511
>
> - Andrew "fresh Jack Browns", Berkeley
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[cyclotourist]

All I can say is that bike needs a much better lock.
Not the place to scrimp on your garbage pail in Berkeley!

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> Free speech and markets and choices and whatnot. 'Merica!
>
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Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[cyclotourist]

I retract the above statement... I see the U-lock now!

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 6:11 PM, cyclotourist  wrote:
> All I can say is that bike needs a much better lock.
> Not the place to scrimp on your garbage pail in Berkeley!
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>> Free speech and markets and choices and whatnot. 'Merica!
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
>
> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>
> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal



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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

I see that lovely frame leaning against a Berkeley pole. You can talk about 
beausage all day, but I will NEVER get used to that. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[LeahFoy]

Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof. How can anyone 
look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends with a garish image of that 
revolting Giant (ok, that is harsh, but you know my feelings about Giant these 
days, see kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over that other 
useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was laughing at that point, 
but stopped when I realized he was serious. Oh well, it takes all kinds, I 
suppose.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

I was quite bewildered by the assumed superiority of carbon forks over steel. I 
get that people think they're light and swoopy, but the implication that 
they're the only thing worth considering and steel sucks is criminally 
misinformed. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[cyclotour...@gmail.com]

My exact response as well ... I originally thought it was a goof... but 
then serious? I do agree about the pedals though.



On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:16:53 AM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof. How can 
> anyone look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends with a garish image of 
> that revolting Giant (ok, that is harsh, but you know my feelings about 
> Giant these days, see kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over 
> that other useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was laughing 
> at that point, but stopped when I realized he was serious. Oh well, it 
> takes all kinds, I suppose.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[El Sapo]

I took that as sarcasm. He's serious? 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

Which pedals?  He mocked two different ones.  He said MKS Sneaker pedals 
suck.  He said Powergrips on pedals suck.  He said toe clips suck, and he 
said Shimano 600 pedals with toe clips are the worst pedals ever to ride 
without cleated shoes.  Which ones are you agreeing with?  

I'll submit that I would prefer to use Shimano 600s without cleated shoes 
over these pedals without cleated shoes:  SPDs suck with non-cycling shoes 


Being a bad pedal with Vans doesn't make it a universally bad pedal.  

The guy says at the beginning that his entire post spews hatred.  If 
anybody prefaces a commentary with "I'm about to spew a bunch of hatred", 
then I know not to take any of it seriously.  The opposite is probably 
closer to the truth, when so-prefaced.  

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> My exact response as well ... I originally thought it was a goof... but 
> then serious? I do agree about the pedals though.
>
>
>
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:16:53 AM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote:
>>
>> Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof. How can 
>> anyone look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends with a garish image of 
>> that revolting Giant (ok, that is harsh, but you know my feelings about 
>> Giant these days, see kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over 
>> that other useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was laughing 
>> at that point, but stopped when I realized he was serious. Oh well, it 
>> takes all kinds, I suppose.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

This post made me go to the group web site to read the original post.  
Now that I have done, I must ask: why are we wasting time on this 
idiotic raving?  The guy is an ignorant idiot.  It's not even a new 
posting - he copyrighted it 5 years ago, and I'm almost certain we've 
discussed it before, if not here then on the IBOB list.  What belongs in 
the garbage pail is this web posting, not the bike he's raving against.



On 01/15/2016 01:57 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
Which pedals?  He mocked two different ones.  He said MKS Sneaker 
pedals suck.  He said Powergrips on pedals suck.  He said toe clips 
suck, and he said Shimano 600 pedals with toe clips are the worst 
pedals ever to ride without cleated shoes.  Which ones are you 
agreeing with?


I'll submit that I would prefer to use Shimano 600s without cleated 
shoes over these pedals without cleated shoes: SPDs suck with 
non-cycling shoes 



Being a bad pedal with Vans doesn't make it a universally bad pedal.

The guy says at the beginning that his entire post spews hatred.  If 
anybody prefaces a commentary with "I'm about to spew a bunch of 
hatred", then I know not to take any of it seriously.  The opposite is 
probably closer to the truth, when so-prefaced.


On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
wrote:


My exact response as well ... I originally thought it was a
goof... but then serious? I do agree about the pedals though.



On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:16:53 AM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote:

Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof.
How can anyone look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends
with a garish image of that revolting Giant (ok, that is
harsh, but you know my feelings about Giant these days, see
kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over that
other useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was
laughing at that point, but stopped when I realized he was
serious. Oh well, it takes all kinds, I suppose.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

"why are we wasting time on this idiotic raving?"

because it's Winter?  
because nobody has said anything about helmets lately?
because we like the sounds of our virtual voices?
no particular reason at all?

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 11:07:43 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> This post made me go to the group web site to read the original post.  Now 
> that I have done, I must ask: why are we wasting time on this idiotic 
> raving?  The guy is an ignorant idiot.  It's not even a new posting - he 
> copyrighted it 5 years ago, and I'm almost certain we've discussed it 
> before, if not here then on the IBOB list.  What belongs in the garbage 
> pail is this web posting, not the bike he's raving against.
>
>
> On 01/15/2016 01:57 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Which pedals?  He mocked two different ones.  He said MKS Sneaker pedals 
> suck.  He said Powergrips on pedals suck.  He said toe clips suck, and he 
> said Shimano 600 pedals with toe clips are the worst pedals ever to ride 
> without cleated shoes.  Which ones are you agreeing with?   
>
> I'll submit that I would prefer to use Shimano 600s without cleated shoes 
> over these pedals without cleated shoes:  SPDs suck with non-cycling shoes 
> 
>
> Being a bad pedal with Vans doesn't make it a universally bad pedal.  
>
> The guy says at the beginning that his entire post spews hatred.  If 
> anybody prefaces a commentary with "I'm about to spew a bunch of hatred", 
> then I know not to take any of it seriously.  The opposite is probably 
> closer to the truth, when so-prefaced.  
>
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com 
> wrote: 
>>
>> My exact response as well ... I originally thought it was a goof... but 
>> then serious? I do agree about the pedals though. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:16:53 AM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote: 
>>>
>>> Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof. How can 
>>> anyone look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends with a garish image of 
>>> that revolting Giant (ok, that is harsh, but you know my feelings about 
>>> Giant these days, see kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over 
>>> that other useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was laughing 
>>> at that point, but stopped when I realized he was serious. Oh well, it 
>>> takes all kinds, I suppose.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

Because I'd never seen it before, and I haven't seen those cheap/light 
Dia-Compe brakes in 15 years? Trivia: Brew - out of Canada, I think - used to 
take those brakes, shave the arms and put ti bolts on 'em, and sell them to 
weight weenies for an hilarious amount of money. They were awesome!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

He's a putz.

On 01/15/2016 02:37 PM, Ron Mc wrote:

I talked to the guy, he is serious.  His way or the highway.

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 12:47:32 PM UTC-6, El Sapo wrote:

I took that as sarcasm. He's serious? 





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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Ron Mc]

I talked to the guy, he is serious.  His way or the highway.  

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 12:47:32 PM UTC-6, El Sapo wrote:
>
> I took that as sarcasm. He's serious? 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 11:39:15 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> He's a putz.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[JohnS]

Thanks Bill, your cartoon made me laugh and helps put it into perspective.

JohnS

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 3:30:40 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 11:39:15 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> He's a putz.
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

Peter Von-whoever likes Chinese plastic so I don't have to ;)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[cyclotourist]

The Shimano 600s. Had the full 600 group on my '86 Allez

and they were NOT comfortable to ride in at all if you didn't have a
cleated shoe. But yeah, better than SPD pedals with reg. shoes :-)

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Which pedals?  He mocked two different ones.  He said MKS Sneaker pedals
> suck.  He said Powergrips on pedals suck.  He said toe clips suck, and he
> said Shimano 600 pedals with toe clips are the worst pedals ever to ride
> without cleated shoes.  Which ones are you agreeing with?
>
> I'll submit that I would prefer to use Shimano 600s without cleated shoes
> over these pedals without cleated shoes:  SPDs suck with non-cycling shoes
> 
>
> Being a bad pedal with Vans doesn't make it a universally bad pedal.
>
> The guy says at the beginning that his entire post spews hatred.  If
> anybody prefaces a commentary with "I'm about to spew a bunch of hatred",
> then I know not to take any of it seriously.  The opposite is probably
> closer to the truth, when so-prefaced.
>
>
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>>
>> My exact response as well ... I originally thought it was a goof... but
>> then serious? I do agree about the pedals though.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 7:16:53 AM UTC-8, LeahFoy wrote:
>>>
>>> Truly, until the end of the post, I thought this was a spoof. How can
>>> anyone look at that Riv and think "garbage"? He ends with a garish image of
>>> that revolting Giant (ok, that is harsh, but you know my feelings about
>>> Giant these days, see kid bike thread) and celebrates it's superiority over
>>> that other useful and comfortable bike and beautiful bike.  I was laughing
>>> at that point, but stopped when I realized he was serious. Oh well, it
>>> takes all kinds, I suppose.
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[drew]

>From another of his posts which is near one celebrating A full 
>suspension,electronic shifting,disc braking "enduro" bike. Seems like 
>conflicting info.
.
"Good engineering rely’s on several key concepts:

Simple design

Few parts
Cheap materials
Loose tolerances
Withstands abuse
Easy to use
Easy to repair
Inexpensive production

Bad Engineering is easy to spot:

Complex design
Many parts
Expensive materials
Lot’s of tight tolerances
Intolerant to abuse
Delicate structure
Difficult to use
Difficult to repair
Expensive production"

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[James Warren]

Either a bleeping idiot or a performance artist.


On Jan 17, 2016, at 9:15 AM, drew wrote:

> From another of his posts which is near one celebrating A full 
> suspension,electronic shifting,disc braking "enduro" bike. Seems like 
> conflicting info.
> .
> "Good engineering rely’s on several key concepts:
> 
> Simple design
> 
> Few parts
> Cheap materials
> Loose tolerances
> Withstands abuse
> Easy to use
> Easy to repair
> Inexpensive production
> 
> Bad Engineering is easy to spot:
> 
> Complex design
> Many parts
> Expensive materials
> Lot’s of tight tolerances
> Intolerant to abuse
> Delicate structure
> Difficult to use
> Difficult to repair
> Expensive production"
> 
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James Warren
jimcwar...@earthlink.net

- 700x33






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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[cyclotourist]

Why not both?

On Sun, Jan 17, 2016 at 9:20 AM, James Warren  wrote:
>
> Either a bleeping idiot or a performance artist.
>
>
> On Jan 17, 2016, at 9:15 AM, drew wrote:
>
> From another of his posts which is near one celebrating A full
> suspension,electronic shifting,disc braking "enduro" bike. Seems like
> conflicting info.
> .
> "Good engineering rely’s on several key concepts:
>
> Simple design
>
> Few parts
> Cheap materials
> Loose tolerances
> Withstands abuse
> Easy to use
> Easy to repair
> Inexpensive production
>
> Bad Engineering is easy to spot:
>
> Complex design
> Many parts
> Expensive materials
> Lot’s of tight tolerances
> Intolerant to abuse
> Delicate structure
> Difficult to use
> Difficult to repair
> Expensive production"
>
> --
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>
>
> James Warren
> jimcwar...@earthlink.net
>
> - 700x33
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[masmojo]

Riding a garbage pail bike is one of those things that only makes sense to 
those who do it!
Try it you'll like it! :-)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[masmojo]

Well I looked at his website and it becomes a little clearer! He's a designer,  
his interest is in making new stuff that he feels is better,  so naturally the 
tried & true is going to be boring to him. Also it looks like he may have done 
some work for Giant,  so that explains that!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Zed Martinez]

Hey now, I'm a designer and I went Riv because I think Grant's one of the 
few always constantly applying the real tenants of design to his work, 
while a lot of the bigger companies chase something a little closer to 
fashion. Good design should always seek to first solve the problems of the 
user, the aesthetic should derive from that. To that end, it's certainly 
acceptable that Rivendell doesn't solve the problems this guy identifies as 
core to his needs. But, I do find it a bit odd how much he hates Riv 
considering that rather decent article he has on trying as a younger man to 
suss out the geometry of the Breezer mountain bikes, and even talking with 
Joe about them later to really get it right. But, even in that one, you can 
tell a bit that the problem is more that he fetishizes technology than 
lauds the principles of design, I feel.

On Monday, January 18, 2016 at 1:56:19 AM UTC-5, masmojo wrote:
>
> Well I looked at his website and it becomes a little clearer! He's a 
> designer,  his interest is in making new stuff that he feels is better,  so 
> naturally the tried & true is going to be boring to him. Also it looks like 
> he may have done some work for Giant,  so that explains that!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Surlyprof]

*"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly 
accepted constraints."*  - Charles Eames

I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers.  Carbon 
fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic 
material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or 
eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes.  It 
continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was 
led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the 
flaws in carbon.  This is why the resurgence we've witnessed in steel bikes 
has been driven primarily by small manufacturers rather than larger ones. 
 Those same smaller manufacturers such as Surly, have gained popularity 
only to get bought by larger companies (such as QBP) so they can produce 
steel bikes without tarnishing the rep of their brands who produce carbon 
ones. 
 
Unfortunately, many younger designers haven't witnessed the cost cutting 
that has gone on the past few decades so they aren't as aware of the 
shortcuts companies take in order to hit a certain price point in the 
market.  We build with cheaper materials, ship those materials to the 
manufacturing vendor who offers the most for the least money and we don't 
oversee what goes on in their plants as tightly as we should (which is why 
Apple's manufacturer of choice, Foxconn is now under such scrutiny for 
problems at their plants).  Consumers and company shareholders shoulder a 
large portion of the blame with consumers demanding more and more cheap 
goods and shareholders demanding higher profits fueling this race to the 
bottom.  We like stuff.  I bought a Riv (as well as many other products I 
own) because they make great bikes that make me happy and I believe in 
Grant's relationships with their manufacturers, his choice of materials and 
processes and ability to create magic within those constraints.  That 
authenticity costs a great deal more than the cost-reduced products 
generated by a large percentage of the companies today (Giant being one of 
them).  You get what you pay for and sometimes even less.  I wouldn't be 
surprised if that Giant frame probably cost $20-50 bucks to build. 
 Granted, you get a great deal on the parts because they are swinging such 
mass quantity discounts with Shimano (who are also shortcutting their 
processes to make their profits).  The rest of that $1999 he mentioned 
covers the assembly, marketing and Giant's massive overhead costs (which 
were reduced a bit by offloading manufacturing overheads to vendors in 
China).  This doesn't even allow for much expense allocated to "clean 
manufacturing" which is why China (and previously Mexico) is suffering so 
badly from manufacturing generated pollution.  Paul Hawkin's "Ecology of 
Commerce" is a good read that starts to get at some of the issues related 
to the real costs of goods, at least from a sustainability angle.

That blog writer/designer's treasure will be trash long before a Rivendell, 
or any of those vintage, lugged steel project bikes we refurbish because 
they were so well designed and manufactured in long lasting materials with 
methods intended to withstand the test of time.

John (Who has designed products that had to be manufactured for $6.50 in 
order to retail for $79.95)
Niles, CA

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 10:56:19 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:
>
> Well I looked at his website and it becomes a little clearer! He's a 
> designer,  his interest is in making new stuff that he feels is better,  so 
> naturally the tried & true is going to be boring to him. Also it looks like 
> he may have done some work for Giant,  so that explains that!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/19/2016 10:01 AM, Surlyprof wrote:
/"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly 
accepted constraints."/  - Charles Eames


I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers. 
 Carbon fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any 
plastic material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be 
reducing or eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing 
processes.  It continues to be a staple in the bike industry because 
(1) the public was led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to 
steel would reveal the flaws in carbon.


Well, also it's lighter.  It's debatable how significant that is for 
recreational riders, but at some point in competition when all else is 
equal it does become very significant: 2 seconds slower on a climb and 
you get dropped from the pace line, and then it's game over.  Total BS 
for most of us, especially those who don't ever ride in pace lines, but 
for racing it's a big deal.



This is why the resurgence we've witnessed in steel bikes has been 
driven primarily by small manufacturers rather than larger ones. 
 Those same smaller manufacturers such as Surly, have gained 
popularity only to get bought by larger companies (such as QBP) so 
they can produce steel bikes without tarnishing the rep of their 
brands who produce carbon ones.
Unfortunately, many younger designers haven't witnessed the cost 
cutting that has gone on the past few decades so they aren't as aware 
of the shortcuts companies take in order to hit a certain price point 
in the market.  We build with cheaper materials, ship those materials 
to the manufacturing vendor who offers the most for the least money 
and we don't oversee what goes on in their plants as tightly as we 
should (which is why Apple's manufacturer of choice, Foxconn is now 
under such scrutiny for problems at their plants).  Consumers and 
company shareholders shoulder a large portion of the blame with 
consumers demanding more and more cheap goods and shareholders 
demanding higher profits fueling this race to the bottom.  We like 
stuff.  I bought a Riv (as well as many other products I own) because 
they make great bikes that make me happy and I believe in Grant's 
relationships with their manufacturers, his choice of materials and 
processes and ability to create magic within those constraints.  That 
authenticity costs a great deal more than the cost-reduced products 
generated by a large percentage of the companies today (Giant being 
one of them).  You get what you pay for and sometimes even less.  I 
wouldn't be surprised if that Giant frame probably cost $20-50 bucks 
to build.  Granted, you get a great deal on the parts because they are 
swinging such mass quantity discounts with Shimano (who are also 
shortcutting their processes to make their profits).  The rest of that 
$1999 he mentioned covers the assembly, marketing and Giant's massive 
overhead costs (which were reduced a bit by offloading manufacturing 
overheads to vendors in China).  This doesn't even allow for much 
expense allocated to "clean manufacturing" which is why China (and 
previously Mexico) is suffering so badly from manufacturing generated 
pollution.  Paul Hawkin's "Ecology of Commerce" is a good read that 
starts to get at some of the issues related to the real costs of 
goods, at least from a sustainability angle.


That blog writer/designer's treasure will be trash long before a 
Rivendell, or any of those vintage, lugged steel project bikes we 
refurbish because they were so well designed and manufactured in long 
lasting materials with methods intended to withstand the test of time.


Two of my main rides, one steel and one titanium, were made in 1991, and 
one of my bikes dates to the mid-80s.  I don't think of any of them as 
"vintage" partly because they either were initially built for, or have 
been modified to accommodate 130mm OLD indexed 8 or 9 speed drive trains 
rather than 120mm 5 speed friction-shifting.  I can't imagine seeing any 
25-30 year old carbon bikes in regular use.  Of course, partly that's 
because there were few to begin with, and the old ones are badly 
obsolete now; but also because I doubt carbon bikes hold up that well 
over time.  It's not quite so bad as "dispose of the frame when the 
chain wears out," but I don't think anyone expects them to be in service 
as long as we expect for steel and titanium.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:18:13 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> On 01/19/2016 10:01 AM, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly 
> accepted constraints."*  - Charles Eames 
>
> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers.  Carbon 
> fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic 
> material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or 
> eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes.  It 
> continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was 
> led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the 
> flaws in carbon.  
>
>
> Well, also it's lighter.  It's debatable how significant that is for 
> recreational riders, but at some point in competition when all else is 
> equal it does become very significant: 2 seconds slower on a climb and you 
> get dropped from the pace line, and then it's game over.  Total BS for most 
> of us, especially those who don't ever ride in pace lines, but for racing 
> it's a big deal.
>
I agree that the "lighter" factor is huge and the biggest seller of why 
carbon is better than other material. The general thinking, at least 
according to my friends, is that ever little bit helps. Therefore, if I'm 
getting a bike that is lighter, i.e., 15-16lb carbon bikes with standard 
parts like Sram Red, DA or Record/Chorus, why get steel or any other 
material?!  So if they can get a bike that is 3-5lbs lighter, it will help 
them get up the hill, even if it is only "2 seconds faster."

>
>
> This is why the resurgence we've witnessed in steel bikes has been driven 
> primarily by small manufacturers rather than larger ones.  Those same 
> smaller manufacturers such as Surly, have gained popularity only to get 
> bought by larger companies (such as QBP) so they can produce steel bikes 
> without tarnishing the rep of their brands who produce carbon ones. 
>  
> Unfortunately, many younger designers haven't witnessed the cost cutting 
> that has gone on the past few decades so they aren't as aware of the 
> shortcuts companies take in order to hit a certain price point in the 
> market.  We build with cheaper materials, ship those materials to the 
> manufacturing vendor who offers the most for the least money and we don't 
> oversee what goes on in their plants as tightly as we should (which is why 
> Apple's manufacturer of choice, Foxconn is now under such scrutiny for 
> problems at their plants).  Consumers and company shareholders shoulder a 
> large portion of the blame with consumers demanding more and more cheap 
> goods and shareholders demanding higher profits fueling this race to the 
> bottom.  We like stuff.  I bought a Riv (as well as many other products I 
> own) because they make great bikes that make me happy and I believe in 
> Grant's relationships with their manufacturers, his choice of materials and 
> processes and ability to create magic within those constraints.  That 
> authenticity costs a great deal more than the cost-reduced products 
> generated by a large percentage of the companies today (Giant being one of 
> them).  You get what you pay for and sometimes even less.  I wouldn't be 
> surprised if that Giant frame probably cost $20-50 bucks to build. 
>  Granted, you get a great deal on the parts because they are swinging such 
> mass quantity discounts with Shimano (who are also shortcutting their 
> processes to make their profits).  The rest of that $1999 he mentioned 
> covers the assembly, marketing and Giant's massive overhead costs (which 
> were reduced a bit by offloading manufacturing overheads to vendors in 
> China).  This doesn't even allow for much expense allocated to "clean 
> manufacturing" which is why China (and previously Mexico) is suffering so 
> badly from manufacturing generated pollution.  Paul Hawkin's "Ecology of 
> Commerce" is a good read that starts to get at some of the issues related 
> to the real costs of goods, at least from a sustainability angle.
>
> That blog writer/designer's treasure will be trash long before a 
> Rivendell, or any of those vintage, lugged steel project bikes we refurbish 
> because they were so well designed and manufactured in long lasting 
> materials with methods intended to withstand the test of time.
>
>
> Two of my main rides, one steel and one titanium, were made in 1991, and 
> one of my bikes dates to the mid-80s.  I don't think of any of them as 
> "vintage" partly because they either were initially built for, or have been 
> modified to accommodate 130mm OLD indexed 8 or 9 speed drive trains rather 
> than 120mm 5 speed friction-shifting.  
>
 
Agree. A couple of years ago I bought an old litespeed classic ti frame. It 
was only $400 and that included a Serotta ti head tube extender (heads 
up!).  A great deal. I bought a carbon fork (Columbus Minimal 1" fork) and 
put on a mix of campy and shimano and it 

Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/19/2016 01:41 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:


On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:18:13 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

I can't imagine seeing any 25-30 year old carbon bikes in regular
use.  Of course, partly that's because there were few to begin
with, and the old ones are badly obsolete now; but also because I
doubt carbon bikes hold up that well over time.  It's not quite so
bad as "dispose of the frame when the chain wears out," but I
don't think anyone expects them to be in service as long as we
expect for steel and titanium.

I have to disagree in part with this point. My 1994 Calfee that I 
bought used is considered a dinosaur compared to the lightweight 
carbon coming out of Taiwan these days. The calfee is build like a 
tank compared to the newer carbon stuff. Nevertheless, I bought it 
used in 1997 and it is still going strong today. Since it is over 20 
years old, wow has it been that long?!, it is still in great shape and 
I expect it to easily last another 20 years.  Further, if it gets 
damaged, I can always drive down to Santa Cruz, about an hour or so 
south of SF, to have it repaired.  Good Luck!




Fair polnt: I wasn't thinking of a Calfee when I wrote that, but rather 
production carbon bikes.   Of course, the people who like modern carbon 
frames probably wouldn't be attracted to a Calfee in the first place, as 
it looks "all wrong" and doesn't have that "modern" swoopy appearance.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[masmojo]

The head scratcher for me was the Giant that he showed as being superior,  
really wasn't,  it might have been good for a quick club ride. But, it would be 
of little use for anyone who you might classify as the classic Garbage pail 
bike, there's no racks or rack mounts, there not enough room for fenders,  
can't accommodate wider tires, is not upright enough to be a good commuter,  
etc.
Honestly I view carbon fiber bikes as a fad and unless they address long term 
reliability issues,  they will begin to lose sales, as it stands now, resale on 
these is pretty low, honestly as unlikely as I am to buy one new I am even more 
unlikely to buy a used one! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:35:25 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 01/19/2016 01:41 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:18:13 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
>  
>
>> I can't imagine seeing any 25-30 year old carbon bikes in regular use.  
>> Of course, partly that's because there were few to begin with, and the old 
>> ones are badly obsolete now; but also because I doubt carbon bikes hold up 
>> that well over time.  It's not quite so bad as "dispose of the frame when 
>> the chain wears out," but I don't think anyone expects them to be in 
>> service as long as we expect for steel and titanium.
>>
>  
> I have to disagree in part with this point. My 1994 Calfee that I bought 
> used is considered a dinosaur compared to the lightweight carbon coming out 
> of Taiwan these days. The calfee is build like a tank compared to the newer 
> carbon stuff.  Nevertheless, I bought it used in 1997 and it is still going 
> strong today. Since it is over 20 years old, wow has it been that long?!, 
> it is still in great shape and I expect it to easily last another 20 
> years.  Further, if it gets damaged, I can always drive down to Santa Cruz, 
> about an hour or so south of SF, to have it repaired.  Good Luck! 
>
>
> Fair polnt: I wasn't thinking of a Calfee when I wrote that, but rather 
> production carbon bikes.   Of course, the people who like modern carbon 
> frames probably wouldn't be attracted to a Calfee in the first place, as it 
> looks "all wrong" and doesn't have that "modern" swoopy appearance.
>
 
Agree. Interestingly, for a "production carbon bike," Trek has the Emonda 
which when built up with Sram Red weighs in at 10.25lb for the complete 
bike!  
 
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road/performance-race/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10/p/1479200-2016
 
This bike supposedly has a rider weight limit of 275lb!  Now, if I had an 
extra $15k laying around, I think it would be a very interesting bike to 
check outGood Luck!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

You think if they gave a donation somewhere Trek could buy a few extra 
letters to use in their bike names?  I mean, how many more anagrams can 
they come up with to make out of "Madone"?


On 01/19/2016 03:09 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
Agree. Interestingly, for a "production carbon bike," Trek has the 
Emonda which when built up with Sram Red weighs in at 10.25lb for the 
complete bike!

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road/performance-race/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10/p/1479200-2016
This bike supposedly has a rider weight limit of 275lb!  Now, if I had 
an extra $15k laying around, I think it would be a very interesting 
bike to check outGood Luck!


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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/19/2016 11:44 AM, masmojo wrote:

Honestly I view carbon fiber bikes as a fad and unless they address long term 
reliability issues,  they will begin to lose sales, as it stands now, resale on 
these is pretty low, honestly as unlikely as I am to buy one new I am even more 
unlikely to buy a used one!


disposables...


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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

How ever many anagrams they come up with, I sincerely hope that whenever 
they choose to retire that family of letters, that their final anagram 
model is called:

AM DONE



On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:20:39 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> You think if they gave a donation somewhere Trek could buy a few extra 
> letters to use in their bike names?  I mean, how many more anagrams can 
> they come up with to make out of "Madone"? 
>
> On 01/19/2016 03:09 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
> > Agree. Interestingly, for a "production carbon bike," Trek has the 
> > Emonda which when built up with Sram Red weighs in at 10.25lb for the 
> > complete bike! 
> > 
> http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road/performance-race/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10/p/1479200-2016
>  
> > This bike supposedly has a rider weight limit of 275lb!  Now, if I had 
> > an extra $15k laying around, I think it would be a very interesting 
> > bike to check outGood Luck! 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Mark Reimer]

SO






Who's gonna make up some Garbage Pail Bike patches then??? Put me down for 
two. 




On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:15:39 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> How ever many anagrams they come up with, I sincerely hope that whenever 
> they choose to retire that family of letters, that their final anagram 
> model is called:
>
> AM DONE
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:20:39 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> You think if they gave a donation somewhere Trek could buy a few extra 
>> letters to use in their bike names?  I mean, how many more anagrams can 
>> they come up with to make out of "Madone"? 
>>
>> On 01/19/2016 03:09 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
>> > Agree. Interestingly, for a "production carbon bike," Trek has the 
>> > Emonda which when built up with Sram Red weighs in at 10.25lb for the 
>> > complete bike! 
>> > 
>> http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road/performance-race/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10/p/1479200-2016
>>  
>> > This bike supposedly has a rider weight limit of 275lb!  Now, if I had 
>> > an extra $15k laying around, I think it would be a very interesting 
>> > bike to check outGood Luck! 
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Bill Lindsay]

[image: your front design]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 2:23:58 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> SO
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Who's gonna make up some Garbage Pail Bike patches then??? Put me down for 
> two. 
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:15:39 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> How ever many anagrams they come up with, I sincerely hope that whenever 
>> they choose to retire that family of letters, that their final anagram 
>> model is called:
>>
>> AM DONE
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:20:39 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>> You think if they gave a donation somewhere Trek could buy a few extra 
>>> letters to use in their bike names?  I mean, how many more anagrams can 
>>> they come up with to make out of "Madone"? 
>>>
>>> On 01/19/2016 03:09 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
>>> > Agree. Interestingly, for a "production carbon bike," Trek has the 
>>> > Emonda which when built up with Sram Red weighs in at 10.25lb for the 
>>> > complete bike! 
>>> > 
>>> http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/bikes/road/performance-race/%C3%A9monda/%C3%A9monda-slr-10/p/1479200-2016
>>>  
>>> > This bike supposedly has a rider weight limit of 275lb!  Now, if I had 
>>> > an extra $15k laying around, I think it would be a very interesting 
>>> > bike to check outGood Luck! 
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Garbage Pail Riv sighted in Berkeley

[Joe Bernard]

Nice! I'd buy that shirt. 

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