[RBW] Re: How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Instead of front/back weight distribution, the thing I have noticed that affects handling more than anything is how the rear weight is distributed from bottom to top. If I have too much weight (and/or height) piled on top of the rack itself the handling gets much worse. This is true for all the bikes I've toured with including my Riv. Is that the case with you? Are you placing heavy items directly on top of the rack? 35 pounds is not that much if at least 25 of it is in the panniers. It's easy to check to see if this is the culprate. Do a test ride with your same load but have your rear panniers as full and heavy as possible and put little or nothing on top of the rack itself and see if the ride changes. Pete On Jun 19, 8:27 am, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for all the advice, suggestions and encouragement. I do find it hard to believe that a Riv bike would have inferior handling, based on the other 3 I've owned. I will try moving weight for'ard and see what happens. Saddle: I've got the saddle where I like it, about 3 to 31/2 behind the bb. I just moved it forward a tiny bit yesterday, this for sake of postion, not weight distribution. I do like a butt-back position, so this may put too much weight in the rear. To answer Bill's question: I noticed the light front end when I first rode the bike unladen; this at normal cruising speeds on straight flats; and this evaluation judged in comparison to my other two custom Rivs and my Motobecane, which have shorter and lower cockpits; somewhat like the feel of my Monocog when I ride on the tops; the Monocog also having a much longer and higher cockpit than my 2 customs and the Motobecane, but probably moderated by the huge and ponderous tires and rims. But back to Bill's question: the Sam feels light unladen, especially on the flats -- sign again of the effect of rear weight bias. When laden as yesterday, it felt no different on flat and straight routes at cruising speed: the same slight tendency to wander. It was on the fast downhill sweeper that I noticed the sketchiness of the handling -- too brief to analyze, but IIRC, a hesitation and then a sudden small flop in turning. But it was worst at slow speed up a quite steep hill which combined said rear load, the efffect of the steep inclination, and my own body position for the climbing effort, that is, weight back and upright posture. All of this indicates moving weight forward might help -- again, starting with proper rear pannier setup and some weight in the Ostrich. Thanks to all for helping me think this through. Very, very odd how my old Fuji Royale handled like a pig -- front end wandering around like an excited dog let out for a walk when I had weight in the Nitto Boxy Bag, but sweetly stable and demurely controllable with a heavy load in rear panniers. The SH may be just the opposite. Interesting. The rack is a (at least to judge by its much lighter and very stiff cousin, the Fly) a stiff Tubus Logo, but the bags are not the Ortliebs that I intend to use, but a pair of Axiom grocery panniers borrowed temporarily off the Motobecane and sitting further back than they need to be. I shall install and load the Ortliebs as my next step, then after that add 5+ lb to the Ostrich front bag. Perhaps low riders are in order. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Bill Gibson bill.bgib...@gmail.comwrote: Methodically move weight from back to front, if possible try a low rider front, even overloading the front to see what the matter is. Keep light stuff that you need handy in the handlebar bag. I try to keep all loads between the axles and low, so long as it doesn't interfere with pedaling, etc. Analysis: How does speed change it? Is it worse at low speed? Does it go away at higher speed, or do high speed corrections go too far, or seem sluggish? Is it - the flop- more of a low speed lunging left to right when the front bag is heavily loaded? Flop has a technical meaning beyond what the front feels like in some literature... but the easy thing is to change the way the bike is loaded. I'm sure all loads are well secured. I usually adapt to a bike's idiosyncrasies after a few rides... we ride the bike, not the other way round, mostly. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 3:56 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.comwrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher.
[RBW] Re: How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Patrick: Sorry to hear you're disappointed with the handling as loaded. However, I know from experience that my Atlantis handles poorly for my riding style with 25-30 lbs of rear load on a Nitto big rear rack. My solution has been to distribute the load front rear. Yes, it requires 4 bags another rack but with low riders in front the bike is rock solid. My camping load is a total of around 40 lbs in the bags (Acorn Boxy Rando not included in totals). Most neutral, least sensitive handling is with 25 lbs in front and 15 lbs rear. IMHO, the optimal placement for loads is impacted more by the rider than the bike. Others have been pleased with rear only loads of course the conventional wisdom is that Rivs are rear loaders. Do some experiments to see what works for you; you may be pleasantly surprised. dougP On Jun 18, 3:56 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: How can I improve the rear-loaded handling of my new Sam Hill?
Similarly for me, but not with a Riv. My Woodrup has a tendency for the front end to wander when climbing at low speed. Adding my moderate front load with as close to a constructeur arrangement as possible for that bike has made the front somewhat more stable than it was. The Woodrup has less trail than your Rivs, I'm pretty sure. On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 10:35 PM, doug peterson dougpn...@cox.net wrote: Patrick: Sorry to hear you're disappointed with the handling as loaded. However, I know from experience that my Atlantis handles poorly for my riding style with 25-30 lbs of rear load on a Nitto big rear rack. My solution has been to distribute the load front rear. Yes, it requires 4 bags another rack but with low riders in front the bike is rock solid. My camping load is a total of around 40 lbs in the bags (Acorn Boxy Rando not included in totals). Most neutral, least sensitive handling is with 25 lbs in front and 15 lbs rear. IMHO, the optimal placement for loads is impacted more by the rider than the bike. Others have been pleased with rear only loads of course the conventional wisdom is that Rivs are rear loaders. Do some experiments to see what works for you; you may be pleasantly surprised. dougP On Jun 18, 3:56 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Disappointment. I've owned 3 Riv customs, designed for fast road riding, and all, particularly the second two, have been magnificent in fit, feel and handling, even with rear loads. So I was hugely disappointed to take my SH out for a quick 20 mile shakedown ride with 35 lb or so in the rear (An Ostrich in the front, but lightly loaded). Too much front end vagueness: fast downhill sweeper was uneasy-making, and, coming back up sitting at 5-6 mph, the front end wandered all over the place. I have the bars about even with the plane between rump and nose of saddle; don't want them higher. Riv build, so Jack Browns; stiff Tubus Logo rack. The panniers were not optimal, having been borrowed from my (better handling under rear load, actually) '73 Motobecane flexy 531 racing bike and sitting a bit further back than they need to be. But what can I do to reduce the front end flop? New fork? New bike? -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Ken Freeman Ann Arbor, MI USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
