[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-30 Thread René Sterental 
Yes. For sure! Thanks again!

On Monday, May 30, 2016, Lungimsam  wrote:

> No problem, Rene. Have a great ride! Also, I forgot to mention to try to
> rest the day before the ride. Don't ride the day before. Let the legs
> recharge.
>
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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-30 Thread Lungimsam 
No problem, Rene. Have a great ride! Also, I forgot to mention to try to 
rest the day before the ride. Don't ride the day before. Let the legs 
recharge.

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread Deacon Patrick 
René,

I've replied off list with info on the "no man's land" of the dangers of 
eating above ketogenic, which keeps the liver from kicking in) but not 
enough to meet the body's daily needs. I suspect there is grey area on the 
number that divide low/low; medium/low; and high/low carb amounts, but the 
takeaway is that if you aren't eating ketogenically (and medical issues 
aside (brain and diabetes issues mainly), you should eat 200-600 gms of 
carb a day via "safe carb" sources (per the Perfect Health Diet).

Here's a link to a post exploring ideas on ketogenic: 
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/is-constant-ketosis-necessary-or-even-desirable/#axzz4A3um2b6C

With abandon,
Patrick 

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 3:55:40 PM UTC-6, René wrote:
>
>
> @Patrick: I'm confused about the higher vs. lower but avoiding the middle 
> ground with the Ketogenic diet. Can you point me to information about this? 
> I fully understand everything else you say, and I do understand the changes 
> don't happen overnight. But I know I feel great eating LCHF in general, and 
> would like to understand more about the Ketogenic approach as well.
>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread René Sterental 
@Lungimsam: Thanks for the totally sensible approach and recommendations.
That's exactly how I'll approach it. It's funny that my 23 mile ride
yesterday felt horrible, everything hurt, but then in the evening, after
some brooding during the day, I took my wife out and we went to the movies
(Don't go to watch Lobster... It's so weird and potentially awful... Yet
interesting and baffling at the same time... H) and afterwards, when
talking about the movie which my wife found repulsive, I just decided that
there was no point in fretting and worrying and sabotaging myself over
this, and that I'd just ride to see how far I got. Then this morning I rode
31 miles and felt wonderful doing it. Well, the butt gets sore, but
otherwise it felt great. So thanks again for all the guidance.

@Patrick: I'm confused about the higher vs. lower but avoiding the middle
ground with the Ketogenic diet. Can you point me to information about this?
I fully understand everything else you say, and I do understand the changes
don't happen overnight. But I know I feel great eating LCHF in general, and
would like to understand more about the Ketogenic approach as well.

@Everyone: Your insights are invaluable. I'm now excited again about this
ride; I'll make sure I write a report and post photos. :-)

So awesome to have an extra free day tomorrow!!! Enjoy everyone!!!

René

On Sunday, May 29, 2016, Deacon Patrick  wrote:

> A few more thoughts as Iv'e been thinking on this:
>
> -- Bonking is non-existant once you convert to fat burning.
> -- "Fading" (what I call it) can happen, especially in the first few years
> of fat burning. Think of energy consumption as a fire burning. Sugar
> burners are always burning duff and kindling. It flairs hot and high and
> burns out fast. No logs involved with sugar burning. Fat burners burn logs,
> slowly "sipping" the sugar kindling of body stores to keep the logs burning
> and to fuel the occasional burst. In a fully ketogenic mode, our liver
> converts protein to glucose, replenishing our kindling supply without us
> needing to eat. Thus, so long as our kindling burning is below our liver
> conversion capacity we can ride however long our fat and protein stores
> last (that's a loong time). However, the liver has to get strong at
> this conversion process and that can take a few years (with increasing
> results along the way), with compounding factors like how many carbs you
> have (all sorts of debate on if you go higher than ketogenic if you should
> avoid the "middle" ground of 51-200 gm of carbs a day and focus more on
> 201-600 gms/day -- the idea being the middle ground yields the worst of
> both worlds while suppressing the best of both worlds). "Fading" happens
> when our effort (due to level and/or longevity) exceeds our liver's
> capacity to replenish our kindling sugar, so we are burning a "smoldering"
> fire rather than a dancing, popping fire that feeds off itself. It is
> possible to continue a very long time in this mode, but at a diminished
> pace and recovery is not as easy as ingesting carbs. Time and rest are
> required at that point.
> -- Thus, the suggestion of resistant starch, and perhaps also brining
> dates or other sugar source (honey) to supplement your liver along the way
> and avoid fading (which while far less severe that bonking, takes longer to
> recover from. Best to avoid it altogether).
> -- I haven't faded in several years, as my liver is now able to easily
> keep up with my rides.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:41:27 AM UTC-6, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses.
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some
>> relapses.
>
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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread Deacon Patrick 
A few more thoughts as Iv'e been thinking on this:

-- Bonking is non-existant once you convert to fat burning.
-- "Fading" (what I call it) can happen, especially in the first few years 
of fat burning. Think of energy consumption as a fire burning. Sugar 
burners are always burning duff and kindling. It flairs hot and high and 
burns out fast. No logs involved with sugar burning. Fat burners burn logs, 
slowly "sipping" the sugar kindling of body stores to keep the logs burning 
and to fuel the occasional burst. In a fully ketogenic mode, our liver 
converts protein to glucose, replenishing our kindling supply without us 
needing to eat. Thus, so long as our kindling burning is below our liver 
conversion capacity we can ride however long our fat and protein stores 
last (that's a loong time). However, the liver has to get strong at 
this conversion process and that can take a few years (with increasing 
results along the way), with compounding factors like how many carbs you 
have (all sorts of debate on if you go higher than ketogenic if you should 
avoid the "middle" ground of 51-200 gm of carbs a day and focus more on 
201-600 gms/day -- the idea being the middle ground yields the worst of 
both worlds while suppressing the best of both worlds). "Fading" happens 
when our effort (due to level and/or longevity) exceeds our liver's 
capacity to replenish our kindling sugar, so we are burning a "smoldering" 
fire rather than a dancing, popping fire that feeds off itself. It is 
possible to continue a very long time in this mode, but at a diminished 
pace and recovery is not as easy as ingesting carbs. Time and rest are 
required at that point. 
-- Thus, the suggestion of resistant starch, and perhaps also brining dates 
or other sugar source (honey) to supplement your liver along the way and 
avoid fading (which while far less severe that bonking, takes longer to 
recover from. Best to avoid it altogether).
-- I haven't faded in several years, as my liver is now able to easily keep 
up with my rides.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:41:27 AM UTC-6, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses. 

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread Lungimsam 
How hilly is the ride? I was nervous before my first 62 mile ride. It 
turned out to be way easier than I ever thought it would be.

I don't do low carb riding or diets, but here are a few general long ride 
tips:

1. *Keep it in perspective*: If *there is SAG*, there is nothing to worry 
about. If you get tired/bonk, then you can get a ride back. You may even 
feel like getting back on the bike after the rest while waiting for them to 
come get you and finish the ride. *So don't give up too quickly. *I have 
heard that some riders regret ending a ride and felt they did so too early.

2. If tired, try* recovering on the bike*. Ride as gentle and slow as you 
need to. Soft/light on the pedals. You may find yourself feeling better and 
doing fine after a while.

3. Same for bonking. I have heard of a person continuing to ride through a 
bonk gently and successfully, like in #2 above.

4. *Hard boiled eggs*. Pure energy.

5. *Rest stops:* Start gently after each rest stop until you warm up again. 
Some people stop for long periods (30min.). Some only long enough to get 
food and drink, then they take off. Both work for me. But I tend to stay 
looser if I just have a quick stop.

6. *Focus on getting to each rest stop*. Do not think about how many miles 
you have left in the total ride. Just do it chunk at a time. The goal is 
the next rest stop. "Yes,I can do 15 more miles!"

7. *If it is a hilly ride, gear down and accept slow*. Keep a pace on the 
hills where your breathing stays calm and you don't start huffing and 
puffing. Do not blow yourself up trying to power up hills and getting out 
of breath. I did that once on a 4700ft. climbing 72 mile ride and was blown 
up at 50 miles. Had to lay down for 20 minutes to get going again for the 
last 25. It took all I had to finish. *But it was my fault* for repeatedly 
blowing myself up trying to go fast up the repeated steep hills. I had to 
walk the bike up anything steeper than ~5% grades for the rest of the ride. 
Legs were shot. Unsupported ride, too. No SAG. By God's grace I made it to 
the end happily!

8. *Have fun enjoying the rolling bike show!* It is fun to see all the 
different people and bikes on the ride. You may even be encouraged when you 
see elderly people on walmart bikes doing the same ride you are doing. Also 
if you meet people at the rest stops who say "this is my first ride"." No 
training." "I bought this bike yesterday at a garage sale". Then you will 
feel encouraged at how prepared you are for the ride. You will feel that if 
they can do it, you can do it, too.

9. *Don't get demoralized* if you see people laying down on the ground or 
if you hear about people who dropped out. It may not be the ride that got 
them or lack of prep. It may be they have medical issues, and no indicator 
of how hard the ride is to you. Relax and have fun.

10. If you just did a 4 hour, 40 mile ride of similar elevation, I am sure 
you will be able to pump out a 72 miler. Be confidant! At of it is mental. 
If you eventually do longer rides, then 72 miles will seem an easily 
mentally managed distance.

11. *Find your forever pace. *Cruise along at a comfortable pace that you 
feel you can ride at all day. Don't try to keep up with others at all. Just 
temper your enthusiasm and take it easy and make it a fun cruise of a 
ride

Have a great time and don't forget the pics!!!

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread Ron Mc 
riding in s. Texas summers, taking along SmartWater is a good idea, and 
can't describe to you how wonderful fresh fruit can be, mandarin oranges, 
tangelos, etc.  Around here, it's fresh peaches at roadside stands.  

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 5:28:46 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I suspect that most bonk is caused by electrolyte loss, not glucose.  On 
> very long rides in very hot weather I drink half water & half sport drink. 
>  I carry salty snacks and for century rides and some potassium tablets. 
>  Eat what you like.
> Michael
>
>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread Michael Hechmer 
I suspect that most bonk is caused by electrolyte loss, not glucose.  On 
very long rides in very hot weather I drink half water & half sport drink. 
 I carry salty snacks and for century rides and some potassium tablets. 
 Eat what you like.
Michael


On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 7:49:43 PM UTC-4, stonehog wrote:
>
> Hi René!  Congrats on sticking to the low carb stuff - I've been off and 
> on for a while - like most diets, I find it hard to "stay different" from 
> what others are eating around me.  Need to find the zen chi and become 
> myself...
>
> As far as what to eat on longer rides, here's my take.  I did brevets for 
> a few years before low carb and used stuff like Perpetuum which is just 
> maltodextrose (carbs) mixed with water.  Easy to get down on longer rides, 
> and kept me from bonking, but not satisfying at all.  Everyone was 
> different.  One guy ate dried fruits and seaweed chips - seemed like a pro 
> to me.  Others ate lots of junk and gels.
>
> On the Oregon Outback trip last year, I went with mainly coconut, nuts, 
> and meat/cheese snacks.  This worked great - did five 70+ mile days and 
> never felt like I was hungry.  Here's a pic of what I packed (wayyy too 
> much, BTW - had half of it left at the end of the trip):
>
> https://flic.kr/p/u3G4Nk
>
> Just bring something with salt, and plenty of water, and you'll be fine. 
>  If you feel like your are tired, stop and take a rest.  
>
> Brian
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:41:27 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. 
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably 
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about 
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some 
>> relapses.
>>
>> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
>> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
>> next Sunday.
>>
>> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite 
>> fat adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the 
>> morning, and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR 
>> of 124 (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I 
>> previously couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in 
>> the aerobic base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short 
>> climbs I couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>>
>> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
>> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
>> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
>> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
>> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
>> headwind.
>>
>> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home 
>> I feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
>> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>>
>> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
>> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
>> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
>> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
>> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
>> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
>> my pace and my nutrition.
>>
>> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
>> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
>> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
>> also welcome.
>>
>> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
>> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
>> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
>> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>>
>> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
>> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
>> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
>> to do the whole ride.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>>
>> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as 
>> well?
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> René 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-29 Thread René Sterental 
Thank you all for your insights and feedback.

I'm feeling quite nervous and am trying to relieve the mental pressure. If
I need to get bailed out, so be it. I don't know if I'm aiming too much too
soon, sometimes it certainly feels that way when I assess how I feel after
2 - 3 hour rides. This, unfortunately, leads to personal sabotage so my
diet has suffered these past 3 days. It's why I had said I wouldn't set
goals for myself, because usually all I got was that psychological pressure
that always leads to some form of sabotage. But I couldn't resist...

So I'm not dead set in doing the whole ride, just as much as I feel OK
doing. I'll be by myself as my wife cannot come, but there is SAG support
I've used in previous occasions.

@Patrick: You are absolutely correct about how Maffetone describes the
feeling or "correct" progress. I feel usually feel great durning the day
after my rides, but my legs remain sore, my knees a bit and I'm taking a
day between rides where I just go for a long walk, usually.

I'm now reading his long book on endurance, and it's the principle of
"Listen to your Body" the one I'm focusing on to give me my final green/red
light. His insights about becoming fit aerobically and avoiding illness and
injury hit a nerve.

I think 8 weeks is still too soon, but I have to say I really enjoy the
approach and how it's making me feel. Can't measure progress on speed yet,
but definitely in being able to ride longer.

Again, the insights on nutrition during the events are very valuable. I
think I still have a long way to go before I become much better fat
adapted, lose the weight I still have to lose and become much more
aerobically fit. But at least I now know what the journey map is. Before,
it was a dark puzzling mystery to me!

I'll figure something out with all your suggestions and will start to try
them to see what works for me and what doesn't. But nothing will accelerate
the process so I'll just work on removing the pressure, enjoying the
journey and listening to my body.

Hope you're having a great long weekend!

René

On Saturday, May 28, 2016, Eric Karnes  wrote:

> Hi Rene-
>
> I went low carb / high fat this winter. And with the school year not quite
> over, I have yet to do any really long rides yet this season. But...in one
> of the Gary Taubes talks on YouTube (I forget which one), he mentions that
> he often brings a water bottle full of chicken broth (in addition to water)
> when he does intense workouts at the gym. As I said, I haven't tried it on
> long rides. But during the first week of my diet transition, I found a cup
> a day to be really helpful when I was feeling a bit weak from the 'carb
> withdrawal.'
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 2:41:27 AM UTC-4, René wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses.
>> Lost the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably
>> went a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about
>> just lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some
>> relapses.
>>
>> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the
>> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe
>> next Sunday.
>>
>> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite
>> fat adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the
>> morning, and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR
>> of 124 (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I
>> previously couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in
>> the aerobic base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short
>> climbs I couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>>
>> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've
>> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in
>> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind,
>> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like
>> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant
>> headwind.
>>
>> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home
>> I feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my
>> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>>
>> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm
>> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without
>> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I
>> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so
>> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the
>> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control
>> my pace and my nutrition.
>>
>> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way
>> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right

[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-28 Thread Eric Karnes 
Hi Rene-

I went low carb / high fat this winter. And with the school year not quite 
over, I have yet to do any really long rides yet this season. But...in one 
of the Gary Taubes talks on YouTube (I forget which one), he mentions that 
he often brings a water bottle full of chicken broth (in addition to water) 
when he does intense workouts at the gym. As I said, I haven't tried it on 
long rides. But during the first week of my diet transition, I found a cup 
a day to be really helpful when I was feeling a bit weak from the 'carb 
withdrawal.'

Eric


On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 2:41:27 AM UTC-4, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses.
>
> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
> next Sunday.
>
> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite fat 
> adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the morning, 
> and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR of 124 
> (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I previously 
> couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in the aerobic 
> base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short climbs I 
> couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>
> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
> headwind.
>
> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home I 
> feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>
> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
> my pace and my nutrition.
>
> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
> also welcome.
>
> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>
> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
> to do the whole ride.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>
> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as well?
>
> Best,
>
> René 
>

 

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-28 Thread 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch 
I didn't find brevets and low carb eating to be compatible. I was rigorously on 
the Eat Bacon Don't Jog way of eating. I lost weight and found it, at the time, 
easy to do and satisfying. I seemed to have reached nutritional ketosis and to 
have adapted to burning fat for energy. I could easily ride 4-6 hours with only 
water. But when it came time to do longer rides I struggled. I completed one 
200km ride eating meats and cheese, but was pretty sluggish at times, and had 
that bonking feeling. I did another a few weeks later and bonked pretty badly 
when I finally decided to give in and eat something. Of course, I immediately 
felt better. I finished the ride on Starbucks Doubleshots. The sugar and 
caffeine got me through. So then I would eat low carb except for when it was 
time for a brevet, and that seemed to work pretty well for me. Like any "diet" 
I didn't find low carb to be sustainable, but plenty of people do. There are a 
lot of people eating low carb and participating in endurance events these days, 
so there are numerous sources to help you find what works for you.

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-28 Thread stonehog 
Hi René!  Congrats on sticking to the low carb stuff - I've been off and on 
for a while - like most diets, I find it hard to "stay different" from what 
others are eating around me.  Need to find the zen chi and become myself...

As far as what to eat on longer rides, here's my take.  I did brevets for a 
few years before low carb and used stuff like Perpetuum which is just 
maltodextrose (carbs) mixed with water.  Easy to get down on longer rides, 
and kept me from bonking, but not satisfying at all.  Everyone was 
different.  One guy ate dried fruits and seaweed chips - seemed like a pro 
to me.  Others ate lots of junk and gels.

On the Oregon Outback trip last year, I went with mainly coconut, nuts, and 
meat/cheese snacks.  This worked great - did five 70+ mile days and never 
felt like I was hungry.  Here's a pic of what I packed (wayyy too much, BTW 
- had half of it left at the end of the trip):

https://flic.kr/p/u3G4Nk

Just bring something with salt, and plenty of water, and you'll be fine. 
 If you feel like your are tired, stop and take a rest.  

Brian

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:41:27 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses.
>
> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
> next Sunday.
>
> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite fat 
> adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the morning, 
> and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR of 124 
> (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I previously 
> couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in the aerobic 
> base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short climbs I 
> couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>
> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
> headwind.
>
> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home I 
> feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>
> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
> my pace and my nutrition.
>
> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
> also welcome.
>
> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>
> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
> to do the whole ride.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>
> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as well?
>
> Best,
>
> René 
>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-28 Thread Deacon Patrick 
Excellent job! Way to go! Remember one of the "principles" of Maffetone 
(one I wasn't very good at adhering to while building up my base -- now it 
just happens naturally) is to return home feeling like you could do it all 
again (but not). 

Look into resistant starch (think uber green banana). Here's a good place 
to start learning about 
them. 
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/search-results/?cx=004987908667488763946%3Akd-fp2c7jek=FORID%3A11=UTF-8=resistant+starch=www.marksdailyapple.com%2F==1564j355074j9#

My transition was before I learned about resistant starch. I took nuts. 
Macadamias. With salami.

What I found was that a lot of my "need" was less need to ingest and more 
my body needing to learn where to look for what it needs. So I let it go 
"hungry" and it figured it out. The transition took longer than I'd've 
liked though.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 12:41:27 AM UTC-6, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses.
>
> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
> next Sunday.
>
> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite fat 
> adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the morning, 
> and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR of 124 
> (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I previously 
> couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in the aerobic 
> base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short climbs I 
> couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>
> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
> headwind.
>
> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home I 
> feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>
> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
> my pace and my nutrition.
>
> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
> also welcome.
>
> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>
> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
> to do the whole ride.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>
> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as well?
>
> Best,
>
> René 
>

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[RBW] Re: Long rides on low carb...

2016-05-28 Thread Jeremy Tavan 
Hi, René,

The Lake Tahoe ride sounds like lots of fun. Can't make it next Sunday, but 
maybe the next time it's done - I might even be almost in shape by then!

As for high-fat, bike-portable snacks, we have enjoyed nut balls made from 
macadamia nuts, coconut oil and coconut butter, cacao nibs, and a few dates 
ground up, formed into balls, and chilled. Very energy dense, not too sweet 
or carby. I haven't used them specifically on a ride yet, but I plan to. 
Maybe add a bit of salt for use DURING exercise. Anyone else enjoy these?

/Jeremy

On Friday, May 27, 2016 at 11:41:27 PM UTC-7, René wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been low carb high fat for about a year now, with some relapses. Lost 
> the 40 lbs between May and October last year, then plateaued, probably went 
> a bit off with and gained 10 lbs after the holidays which I've about just 
> lost back again in the last 8 weeks, albeit slowly and with some relapses.
>
> 7 weeks ago, I also started riding aerobically after discovering the 
> Maffetone method and signed up to do the 72 mile ride around Lake Tahoe 
> next Sunday.
>
> During this "training period" I noticed that since I was already quite fat 
> adapted, I had no trouble doing my bike rides on no food in the morning, 
> and that ensuring I didn't exceed my Maximum Aerobic Function HR of 124 
> (for my sweet age) I started managing to do the longer rides I previously 
> couldn't do without a lot of suffering and bonking. To stay in the aerobic 
> base building zone, I mostly chose flat rides and on the short climbs I 
> couldn't avoid, slowed to a crawl. Balance training I call it.
>
> Last Sunday, I did a 42 mile ride in just under 4 hours. This week I've 
> ridden twice to work and back, total of 36 miles each day, just split in 
> two rides. The afternoon rides home are with a very strong head/side wind, 
> where again, I have to slow down significantly and take it like 
> "meditation". Character building I call riding 18 miles with a constant 
> headwind.
>
> On all these rides I only drink water, nothing else. But when I get home I 
> feel like I can't keep riding. Once I rest a bit I feel fine, although my 
> legs and my butt "feel" it.
>
> I don't think I can do the 72 mile ride next Sunday on just water, so I'm 
> looking for some guidance and suggestions for how to fuel myself without 
> making it all sugary with gels and the traditional cycling fuels. When I 
> first did these long rides with Team in Training in 2005, I would finish so 
> bloated from all the gels I needed to take just to keep going, and also the 
> pace was too high for me. This time I'm riding by myself so I can control 
> my pace and my nutrition.
>
> I'm also hoping that during the day of the ride, I'll somehow find a way 
> to ride for 7 - 8 hours. Right now, it seems impossible as my longest ride 
> has been 4 hours, and most of my rides are around 2 hours. Suggestions are 
> also welcome.
>
> I know there is a lot of "mental" stuff needed to do these long rides, as 
> well as more aerobic training and losing the other 40+ lbs I'm still 
> carrying on me. I'm just hoping that persevering will make them truly 
> enjoyable, vs. fighting to just finish them.
>
> I welcome any other tips as well regarding managing the long hours on the 
> saddle. Frequency of stops to stretch out, rest the butt, hands, feet, 
> etc.? I know I can always get bailed out if necessary, but I'm going to try 
> to do the whole ride.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience and feedback!
>
> I'm riding my Homer. Is anyone from this list going to do the ride as well?
>
> Best,
>
> René 
>

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