[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
i am a true believer in most of grant's ideas on bicycles. after talking to him for quite awhile in his shop, i bought a "ram" framset. i cannot ride with the saddle as far back as grant would like.but, my ram with a "zero offset" seatpost and my b-17 works perfectly. however, along with my forward saddle position, i still need a 9cm stem. the saluki would require a much shorter stem. by the way, my ram is the best descending bike that i have ever experienced. On May 14, 8:10 pm, PATRICK MOORE wrote: > On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery < > > thill@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Semi-related: In our shop, we often see people sliding saddles forward > > to reduce the reach to the bars (simulates a shorter TT by increasing > > the effective seat tube angle). > > A mortal sin of bike fitting. > > > Curiously, this practice often makes > > the problem worse, because of the way it changes rider weight > > distribution. Often, the stresses on hands, backs, etc, are mitigated > > by sliding the saddle backwards, thereby simulating an even longer > > TT. > > Nay, I will go so far as to say that the most important element of back, > shoulder, neck, and hand comfort is saddle setback. Am I exaggerating? I > wonder. It certainly works wonders, a waaay back saddle. > > -- > Patrick Moore > Albuquerque, NM > Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery < thill@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Semi-related: In our shop, we often see people sliding saddles forward > to reduce the reach to the bars (simulates a shorter TT by increasing > the effective seat tube angle). A mortal sin of bike fitting. > Curiously, this practice often makes > the problem worse, because of the way it changes rider weight > distribution. Often, the stresses on hands, backs, etc, are mitigated > by sliding the saddle backwards, thereby simulating an even longer > TT. Nay, I will go so far as to say that the most important element of back, shoulder, neck, and hand comfort is saddle setback. Am I exaggerating? I wonder. It certainly works wonders, a waaay back saddle. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM Professional Resumes. Contact resumespecialt...@gmail.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
On May 13, 8:02 pm, Donald Compton wrote: > the only thing is that the toptube is measured along its top horizontal line. > thats after the shallow headtube is taken into consideration. and, because of > the necessary increase in fork rake, there will be more toe clip space. it > just seems to me that the saluki is a long bike relative to the "riv" > traditional geo. > don c. > Don, The TT length is measured from the HT/TT junction. The head tube extension and the stem quill angle back from that point, and the shallower the HA the further back they lean. It's not a huge amount, but if the stem has a long quill it can reduce the effective reach by a cm or so. I realized this while trying to figure out why my Riv Road had a longer reach than my Miyata 1000 even though both had 57 cm top tubes, Brooks saddles set all the way back, and the bars level with the saddle. The only difference I could find was the head angle, 73.5 vs. 72 degrees respectively. Bill --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
Not an answer to your specific question, but I have some recent experience relating to non-intuitive top-tube length issues. A few months ago I picked up my long-awaited Curt Goodrich fat-tire touring frame. When discussing geometry with Curt, I asked him to make it like my 58 Atlantis, but maybe a tiny bit shorter in the TT. When I inspected the new frame, I was surprised that the TT was actually about 1-1.5 cm LONGER than on my Atlantis. But, for whatever reason, it works, and is very comfortable. Probably has something to do with shallower seat and head angles. I've even been toying with the idea of trying a longer stem (1-1/8 threadless, so it's easy to experiment), but I doubt I'll get around to it anytime soon. I've come to agree with some of Grant's published opinions that TT length isn't that important, and has to be considered in the context of frame angles, rider fitness, riding style, stem/handlebar choice, etc. Simply comparing TT lengths isn't a productive way to evaluate the suitability of one frame vs another. Semi-related: In our shop, we often see people sliding saddles forward to reduce the reach to the bars (simulates a shorter TT by increasing the effective seat tube angle). Curiously, this practice often makes the problem worse, because of the way it changes rider weight distribution. Often, the stresses on hands, backs, etc, are mitigated by sliding the saddle backwards, thereby simulating an even longer TT. On May 13, 9:19 pm, dpco wrote: > to grant, > why is the toptube on a 58cm saluki .5cm longer than a 60cm ram? > don c. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
Quoting "Frederick, Steve" : > > Not Grant, but I was concerned about this when I ordered a Saluki, > too. (I also have a Rambouillet) The slacker seat angle on the > Saluki The seat angles on the Saluki and Rambouillet are the same. 72.5 in the smaller sizes, 72 in the larger sizes. http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/geometry.html --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
on 5/13/09 7:19 PM, dpco at dcompton1...@sbcglobal.net wrote: > > to grant, > why is the toptube on a 58cm saluki .5cm longer than a 60cm ram? Please remember than this list is a discussion about Rivendell bicycles. It is not the best means to correspond with Rivendell Bicycle Works. Although Grant and other RBW staff do post here from time to time, it's best to email them directly on specific questions. Their contact info can be found here: http://www.rivbike.com/staff_directory I don't really have any conjecture on the answer, I was going to suggest the Saluki had more upslope on the TT, but that does not appear to be the case. Of course they were different bikes with different wheelsizes, and it just may have been the way it worked out. - Jim -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines "I had to ride slow because I was taking my guerrilla route, the one I follow when I assume that everyone in a car is out to get me." -- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac" --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
Not Grant, but I was concerned about this when I ordered a Saluki, too. (I also have a Rambouillet) The slacker seat angle on the Saluki means that, assuming you put your seat in the same position relative to the bottom bracket on either bike, your saddle will be slightly further forward on the seatpost rails of the Saluki. My Rambouillet and Saluki are the same size (54cm) and the Saluki toptube is nominally longer, but the seat is further forward, too, due to the slacker seat tube angle, so the reach to the bars (with the same length stem) is identical within a couple of mm's. Bike fit magic! Steve -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of dpco Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:20 PM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] toptube length on saluki? to grant, why is the toptube on a 58cm saluki .5cm longer than a 60cm ram? don c. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
the only thing is that the toptube is measured along its top horizontal line. thats after the shallow headtube is taken into consideration. and, because of the necessary increase in fork rake, there will be more toe clip space. it just seems to me that the saluki is a long bike relative to the "riv" traditional geo. don c. --- On Wed, 5/13/09, Bill M. wrote: > From: Bill M. > Subject: [RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki? > To: "RBW Owners Bunch" > Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 7:47 PM > Don, > > I'm not Grant, but I can hazard a couple of guesses. > > The longer TT provides more room for fat tires and fenders > on the > Saluki, with less toe overlap. The intended owner for the > sportier > Ram would probably be more likely to tolerate a bit of > overlap than > the presumably more touring-oriented Saluki owner. > > The shallower head angle of the Saluki actually brings the > stem back a > bit towards the rider. That reduces the reach to the bars > making the > TT act a bit shorter than it measures. The taller the > stem, the more > that effect will be seen. The hypothetical Ram owner is > likely to > have a more sporting bent and keep the bars a tad lower, > which moves > the bars further forward and lengthens the reach. So, the > 'luki gets > a longer TT. > > Sound reasonable? > > Bill > > > > On May 13, 7:19 pm, dpco > wrote: > > to grant, > > why is the toptube on a 58cm saluki .5cm longer than a > 60cm ram? > > don c. > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: toptube length on saluki?
Don, I'm not Grant, but I can hazard a couple of guesses. The longer TT provides more room for fat tires and fenders on the Saluki, with less toe overlap. The intended owner for the sportier Ram would probably be more likely to tolerate a bit of overlap than the presumably more touring-oriented Saluki owner. The shallower head angle of the Saluki actually brings the stem back a bit towards the rider. That reduces the reach to the bars making the TT act a bit shorter than it measures. The taller the stem, the more that effect will be seen. The hypothetical Ram owner is likely to have a more sporting bent and keep the bars a tad lower, which moves the bars further forward and lengthens the reach. So, the 'luki gets a longer TT. Sound reasonable? Bill On May 13, 7:19 pm, dpco wrote: > to grant, > why is the toptube on a 58cm saluki .5cm longer than a 60cm ram? > don c. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
