Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[J G]

Agree with Patrick that whatever change you make, give it a 100 miles.

Only disagree with the idea to toe in more.  Centerpull brakes work best 
with no toe in, in my experience.  

I have 2 bikes with Paul Racers, with one center mount and one post mount. 
 No toe in for either and no squeal or shudder.  Just some of the best 
braking power and modulation of any bikes I have.

Here is a good link that discusses center pull brakes and toe in:

https://www.renehersecycles.com/a-better-way-to-adjust-toe-in/

Here is a key excerpt from page and the theory stands IMHO for both center 
and post mount, even though the statement specifically alludes to post 
mount:

"Centerpull brakes attach close to the fork crown, so the fork blades don’t 
twist significantly. This is why centerpull brakes offer such consistent 
brake modulation. It’s also the reason they don’t require toe-in. 
Centerpull brakes work best when the pads are parallel to the rim.
When we introduced the Compass centerpull brakes, the toe-in was not 
adjustable. In our testing of prototypes, we found that the brakes might 
squeal for the first few rides, but they became quiet as the pads wore 
until they were parallel to the rim. Most of our customers have had similar 
experiences."


On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 1:34:07 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> Are the rims and pads clean? 
>
> Are the rims new? I've found that a hundred miles or so of not-too-clean 
> riding surfaces can do a lot to "match" pads to rims.
>
> I had horrible squeal and front judder with Tektro CR 720s on my then-new 
> 2020 Matthews (26" wheels on largish frame, so very long steerer). I toed 
> the salmon pads in to a comical degree and both stopped or -- judder -- 
> reduced to a barely noticeable hint under medium braking pressures. The 
> braking effectiveness remained much the same; that is to say, mediocre -- 
> but: when I replaced the Tektros with Pauls the braking effectiveness 
> remained the same even through the squeal and judder went away with the 
> same pads normally toed in.
>
> OTOH again, after several hundreds of miles on the pads the "force" of the 
> brakes is now noticeably better and there is no more squeal or judder than 
> at first. (There is just a faint hint of judder in front under medium 
> braking, but it does not bother me who am excessively obsessive about such 
> things. I can't drill the fork crown because of the deep front fender 
> mounting boss under the crown.)
>
> If I were in your place I'd increase toe-in and ride the bike on some 
> dusty roads and re-evaluate the situation after 100 miles or so.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[Patrick Moore]

Are the rims and pads clean?

Are the rims new? I've found that a hundred miles or so of not-too-clean
riding surfaces can do a lot to "match" pads to rims.

I had horrible squeal and front judder with Tektro CR 720s on my then-new
2020 Matthews (26" wheels on largish frame, so very long steerer). I toed
the salmon pads in to a comical degree and both stopped or -- judder --
reduced to a barely noticeable hint under medium braking pressures. The
braking effectiveness remained much the same; that is to say, mediocre --
but: when I replaced the Tektros with Pauls the braking effectiveness
remained the same even through the squeal and judder went away with the
same pads normally toed in.

OTOH again, after several hundreds of miles on the pads the "force" of the
brakes is now noticeably better and there is no more squeal or judder than
at first. (There is just a faint hint of judder in front under medium
braking, but it does not bother me who am excessively obsessive about such
things. I can't drill the fork crown because of the deep front fender
mounting boss under the crown.)

If I were in your place I'd increase toe-in and ride the bike on some dusty
roads and re-evaluate the situation after 100 miles or so.

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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[Ben Mihovk]

For sure! I'll see if I can find time when I get home from work.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 12:12 PM JohnS  wrote:

> Hello Ben, maybe it would help the group if you were to post a picture or
> two of your current set up.
>
> Thanks,
> JohnS
>
>
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 10:56:34 AM UTC-4 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Good to know...but if my brake is mounted on the fork, I'm not sure where
>> I'd mount a fork-mounted cable hanger.
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-5 Jay Lonner wrote:
>>
>>> This is a common complaint with headset-mounted cable hangers. Changing
>>> to a fork-mounted hanger usually alleviates the problem. Shovel Research
>>> just released a nice one:
>>> https://shovelresearch.com/fork-mounted-brake-cable-hanger
>>>
>>> Jay Lonner
>>> Bellingham, WA
>>>
>>> Sent from my Atari 400
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
>>>
>>> Good morning,
>>>
>>> I just got a new set of Racer (regular) brakes for my sidepull
>>> Hillborne. Everything's set up, the brakes are grabbing/stopping, but I'm
>>> getting the most horrific noises from the pads on the front brakes. I'm
>>> using the Kool Stop Thinlines that Paul sends with the brakes. I set them
>>> up following the instructions from Paul initially (no toe-in), and the
>>> brakes squealed on the first test ride. So I toed them in and now I'm
>>> getting this awful vibration when the pads touch the rims that gets
>>> louder/more intense with speed. The vibration can be felt in the
>>> saddle...all through the frame. Truly harrowing stuff here. When I full
>>> pull the brake levers, the vibration kind of goes away but I get a light
>>> squeal (even with brakes toed in).
>>>
>>> I've never set up centerpull brakes or any brakes with a straddle
>>> wire/hanger. I can't see how the problem could be from anything but how the
>>> pads are hitting. I've double checked to see that the unit is centered when
>>> I tighten it. The one goofy thing I'm noticing is that the right arm of the
>>> brake seems lower because I have the pad set higher in the arm than on the
>>> left side...but I've taken the pads off completely and recentered the brake
>>> unit and I'm getting the same results.
>>>
>>> I've read a little about how big frames (this is a 62cm Sam) can have
>>> the vibrations because of the length of cable and how tension varies
>>> through the pull (or something like that). I've also read that this kind
>>> issue could be from cheap/flimsly brakes...but I would hope that Paul
>>> brakes would be above suspicion here. I've also heard that if something is
>>> loose on the brake assembly, the vibrations can happen.
>>>
>>> However...I'm convinced it's in how I have the pads set...I don't get
>>> vibrations when the pads are not toed-in...toeing in almost seems to bring
>>> about the vibrations.
>>>
>>> Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful. I'm at the end of my rope
>>> and considering removing the Pauls and going back to the squisy and not
>>> very good Tektros Riv put on it originally.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Ben in Omaha
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[J G]

I am a big fan of the Racer brakes.  Would hope that you would not need to 
dump.  Set mine up many years ago, but seem to remember them not being toed 
in.

I would recommend going back to no toe in and first see if the squealing 
ceases once bedded in, before considering other changes.

As far as the shudder, big bikes with 1" tubes and a canti hanger above the 
top of the headset, is a candidate for said shudder so a plus that you are 
not seeing that when not toed.

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:11:55 PM UTC-5 JohnS wrote:

> Hello Ben, maybe it would help the group if you were to post a picture or 
> two of your current set up.
>
> Thanks,
> JohnS
>
>
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 10:56:34 AM UTC-4 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Good to know...but if my brake is mounted on the fork, I'm not sure where 
>> I'd mount a fork-mounted cable hanger. 
>>
>> Ben
>>
>> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-5 Jay Lonner wrote:
>>
>>> This is a common complaint with headset-mounted cable hangers. Changing 
>>> to a fork-mounted hanger usually alleviates the problem. Shovel Research 
>>> just released a nice one: 
>>> https://shovelresearch.com/fork-mounted-brake-cable-hanger
>>>
>>> Jay Lonner
>>> Bellingham, WA
>>>
>>> Sent from my Atari 400
>>>
>>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
>>>
>>> Good morning,
>>>
>>> I just got a new set of Racer (regular) brakes for my sidepull 
>>> Hillborne. Everything's set up, the brakes are grabbing/stopping, but I'm 
>>> getting the most horrific noises from the pads on the front brakes. I'm 
>>> using the Kool Stop Thinlines that Paul sends with the brakes. I set them 
>>> up following the instructions from Paul initially (no toe-in), and the 
>>> brakes squealed on the first test ride. So I toed them in and now I'm 
>>> getting this awful vibration when the pads touch the rims that gets 
>>> louder/more intense with speed. The vibration can be felt in the 
>>> saddle...all through the frame. Truly harrowing stuff here. When I full 
>>> pull the brake levers, the vibration kind of goes away but I get a light 
>>> squeal (even with brakes toed in). 
>>>
>>> I've never set up centerpull brakes or any brakes with a straddle 
>>> wire/hanger. I can't see how the problem could be from anything but how the 
>>> pads are hitting. I've double checked to see that the unit is centered when 
>>> I tighten it. The one goofy thing I'm noticing is that the right arm of the 
>>> brake seems lower because I have the pad set higher in the arm than on the 
>>> left side...but I've taken the pads off completely and recentered the brake 
>>> unit and I'm getting the same results.
>>>
>>> I've read a little about how big frames (this is a 62cm Sam) can have 
>>> the vibrations because of the length of cable and how tension varies 
>>> through the pull (or something like that). I've also read that this kind 
>>> issue could be from cheap/flimsly brakes...but I would hope that Paul 
>>> brakes would be above suspicion here. I've also heard that if something is 
>>> loose on the brake assembly, the vibrations can happen.
>>>
>>> However...I'm convinced it's in how I have the pads set...I don't get 
>>> vibrations when the pads are not toed-in...toeing in almost seems to bring 
>>> about the vibrations. 
>>>
>>> Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful. I'm at the end of my rope 
>>> and considering removing the Pauls and going back to the squisy and not 
>>> very good Tektros Riv put on it originally.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Ben in Omaha
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4f5914bb-774a-43b7-b5b9-c943686493e9n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[JohnS]

Hello Ben, maybe it would help the group if you were to post a picture or 
two of your current set up.

Thanks,
JohnS


On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 10:56:34 AM UTC-4 bjmi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Good to know...but if my brake is mounted on the fork, I'm not sure where 
> I'd mount a fork-mounted cable hanger. 
>
> Ben
>
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-5 Jay Lonner wrote:
>
>> This is a common complaint with headset-mounted cable hangers. Changing 
>> to a fork-mounted hanger usually alleviates the problem. Shovel Research 
>> just released a nice one: 
>> https://shovelresearch.com/fork-mounted-brake-cable-hanger
>>
>> Jay Lonner
>> Bellingham, WA
>>
>> Sent from my Atari 400
>>
>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
>>
>> Good morning,
>>
>> I just got a new set of Racer (regular) brakes for my sidepull Hillborne. 
>> Everything's set up, the brakes are grabbing/stopping, but I'm getting the 
>> most horrific noises from the pads on the front brakes. I'm using the Kool 
>> Stop Thinlines that Paul sends with the brakes. I set them up following the 
>> instructions from Paul initially (no toe-in), and the brakes squealed on 
>> the first test ride. So I toed them in and now I'm getting this awful 
>> vibration when the pads touch the rims that gets louder/more intense with 
>> speed. The vibration can be felt in the saddle...all through the frame. 
>> Truly harrowing stuff here. When I full pull the brake levers, the 
>> vibration kind of goes away but I get a light squeal (even with brakes toed 
>> in). 
>>
>> I've never set up centerpull brakes or any brakes with a straddle 
>> wire/hanger. I can't see how the problem could be from anything but how the 
>> pads are hitting. I've double checked to see that the unit is centered when 
>> I tighten it. The one goofy thing I'm noticing is that the right arm of the 
>> brake seems lower because I have the pad set higher in the arm than on the 
>> left side...but I've taken the pads off completely and recentered the brake 
>> unit and I'm getting the same results.
>>
>> I've read a little about how big frames (this is a 62cm Sam) can have the 
>> vibrations because of the length of cable and how tension varies through 
>> the pull (or something like that). I've also read that this kind issue 
>> could be from cheap/flimsly brakes...but I would hope that Paul brakes 
>> would be above suspicion here. I've also heard that if something is loose 
>> on the brake assembly, the vibrations can happen.
>>
>> However...I'm convinced it's in how I have the pads set...I don't get 
>> vibrations when the pads are not toed-in...toeing in almost seems to bring 
>> about the vibrations. 
>>
>> Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful. I'm at the end of my rope and 
>> considering removing the Pauls and going back to the squisy and not very 
>> good Tektros Riv put on it originally.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Ben in Omaha
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4f5914bb-774a-43b7-b5b9-c943686493e9n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[Ben Mihovk]

Good to know...but if my brake is mounted on the fork, I'm not sure where 
I'd mount a fork-mounted cable hanger. 

Ben

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 9:50:52 AM UTC-5 Jay Lonner wrote:

> This is a common complaint with headset-mounted cable hangers. Changing to 
> a fork-mounted hanger usually alleviates the problem. Shovel Research just 
> released a nice one: 
> https://shovelresearch.com/fork-mounted-brake-cable-hanger
>
> Jay Lonner
> Bellingham, WA
>
> Sent from my Atari 400
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:
>
> Good morning,
>
> I just got a new set of Racer (regular) brakes for my sidepull Hillborne. 
> Everything's set up, the brakes are grabbing/stopping, but I'm getting the 
> most horrific noises from the pads on the front brakes. I'm using the Kool 
> Stop Thinlines that Paul sends with the brakes. I set them up following the 
> instructions from Paul initially (no toe-in), and the brakes squealed on 
> the first test ride. So I toed them in and now I'm getting this awful 
> vibration when the pads touch the rims that gets louder/more intense with 
> speed. The vibration can be felt in the saddle...all through the frame. 
> Truly harrowing stuff here. When I full pull the brake levers, the 
> vibration kind of goes away but I get a light squeal (even with brakes toed 
> in). 
>
> I've never set up centerpull brakes or any brakes with a straddle 
> wire/hanger. I can't see how the problem could be from anything but how the 
> pads are hitting. I've double checked to see that the unit is centered when 
> I tighten it. The one goofy thing I'm noticing is that the right arm of the 
> brake seems lower because I have the pad set higher in the arm than on the 
> left side...but I've taken the pads off completely and recentered the brake 
> unit and I'm getting the same results.
>
> I've read a little about how big frames (this is a 62cm Sam) can have the 
> vibrations because of the length of cable and how tension varies through 
> the pull (or something like that). I've also read that this kind issue 
> could be from cheap/flimsly brakes...but I would hope that Paul brakes 
> would be above suspicion here. I've also heard that if something is loose 
> on the brake assembly, the vibrations can happen.
>
> However...I'm convinced it's in how I have the pads set...I don't get 
> vibrations when the pads are not toed-in...toeing in almost seems to bring 
> about the vibrations. 
>
> Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful. I'm at the end of my rope and 
> considering removing the Pauls and going back to the squisy and not very 
> good Tektros Riv put on it originally.
>
> Thanks!
> Ben in Omaha
>
>
> -- 
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Paul Racer Brake Noise/Vibration

[Jay Lonner]

This is a common complaint with headset-mounted cable hangers. Changing to a fork-mounted hanger usually alleviates the problem. Shovel Research just released a nice one: https://shovelresearch.com/fork-mounted-brake-cable-hangerJay LonnerBellingham, WASent from my Atari 400On Sep 8, 2023, at 5:54 AM, Ben Mihovk  wrote:Good morning,I just got a new set of Racer (regular) brakes for my sidepull Hillborne. Everything's set up, the brakes are grabbing/stopping, but I'm getting the most horrific noises from the pads on the front brakes. I'm using the Kool Stop Thinlines that Paul sends with the brakes. I set them up following the instructions from Paul initially (no toe-in), and the brakes squealed on the first test ride. So I toed them in and now I'm getting this awful vibration when the pads touch the rims that gets louder/more intense with speed. The vibration can be felt in the saddle...all through the frame. Truly harrowing stuff here. When I full pull the brake levers, the vibration kind of goes away but I get a light squeal (even with brakes toed in). I've never set up centerpull brakes or any brakes with a straddle wire/hanger. I can't see how the problem could be from anything but how the pads are hitting. I've double checked to see that the unit is centered when I tighten it. The one goofy thing I'm noticing is that the right arm of the brake seems lower because I have the pad set higher in the arm than on the left side...but I've taken the pads off completely and recentered the brake unit and I'm getting the same results.I've read a little about how big frames (this is a 62cm Sam) can have the vibrations because of the length of cable and how tension varies through the pull (or something like that). I've also read that this kind issue could be from cheap/flimsly brakes...but I would hope that Paul brakes would be above suspicion here. I've also heard that if something is loose on the brake assembly, the vibrations can happen.However...I'm convinced it's in how I have the pads set...I don't get vibrations when the pads are not toed-in...toeing in almost seems to bring about the vibrations. Any ideas anyone has would be very helpful. I'm at the end of my rope and considering removing the Pauls and going back to the squisy and not very good Tektros Riv put on it originally.Thanks!Ben in Omaha



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