Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

Barlow Pass tires are currently installed on my Redwood and it's a
nice ride with them.  No room for fenders, though.

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 7:50 AM, David Banzer  wrote:
> Thanks for this. I'm rebuilding my Redwood as a 700c road bike (think 38mm
> Barlow Pass tires will fit) and already have a Shimano 8-speed cassette and
> derailleur. I'd just need to add Campy 10-speed shifters and it'd work. I've
> been looking at options and it looks like Campy redesigned the brake lever
> shape somewhat recently, is that correct?
> I'm trying to decide if I should buy new, or find a used pair (I think
> version 2 of the hood shape).
> David
> Chicago
>
> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 4:32:18 PM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> Ah, this is what it was called - Hubbub, after Hubbub cycles.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo#Shimergo
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:
>>>
>>> Curious anybody know the pull ratios for Shimano 9, 10 & 11 and Campy 10
>>> & 11?
>>>
>>> On Dec 21, 2015 2:23 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:



 On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was
> running 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) 
> with a
> Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable 
> at
> a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get perfectly
> indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette, while 
> using
> the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters. I was
> impressed.


 Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard
 that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[David Banzer]

Thanks for this. I'm rebuilding my Redwood as a 700c road bike (think 38mm 
Barlow Pass tires will fit) and already have a Shimano 8-speed cassette and 
derailleur. I'd just need to add Campy 10-speed shifters and it'd work. 
I've been looking at options and it looks like Campy redesigned the brake 
lever shape somewhat recently, is that correct?
I'm trying to decide if I should buy new, or find a used pair (I think 
version 2 of the hood shape).
David
Chicago

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 4:32:18 PM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> Ah, this is what it was called - Hubbub, after Hubbub cycles. 
>
>
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo#Shimergo
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Hugh Smitham  > wrote:
>
>> Curious anybody know the pull ratios for Shimano 9, 10 & 11 and Campy 10 
>> & 11?
>> On Dec 21, 2015 2:23 PM, "Steve Palincsar" > 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>
 On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was 
 running 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with 
 a Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the 
 cable 
 at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get 
 perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette, 
 while using the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters. 
 I was impressed.

>>>
>>> Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard 
>>> that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Richard]

For Winter riding with gloves or mittens, brifters can be difficult to use. In 
my case Campy ergos, or Shimano brifters. Never used SRAM stuff.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Hugh Smitham]

Or in mittens when it's freezing.
On Dec 21, 2015 2:59 PM, "Mark Reimer"  wrote:

> I love that thumb tab because you can also click it with your pinkie
> finger when your hands are on the 'tops'.
>
> > On Dec 21, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Jim Bronson  wrote:
> >
> > I like the ergonomics of the way the Campy hoods attach to the bars,
> > but I don't like the thumb operated Campy downshift mechanism.  I
> > prefer the Shimano style, but that method is probably patented.
> >
> >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Mark Reimer 
> wrote:
> >> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was
> running
> >> 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with a
> Shimano
> >> 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable at a
> >> slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get perfectly
> >> indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette, while
> using
> >> the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters. I was
> >> impressed.
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:18 PM, islaysteve 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> There's no arguing that Shimano STI brifters are difficult to repair,
> >>> whether to remove broken cable or to deep clean in order to get them
> >>> shifting properly again.  I did it about 15 years ago, successfully,
> and I
> >>> did my right one recently with the help of some excellent YouTube
> >>> instructions.  It's still hard.  I'd like to try Campy, will have to
> look
> >>> into the economics and practicalities of that for the future!  Cheers,
> Steve
> >>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Tim Gavin]

I didn't mind the thumb tab on my 8 speed Campy Ergos (but I don't like
them for triple cranks, so they came back off my Riv).

I prefer Campy's lever-and-thumb system to Shimano's moving brake lever.
Ugh.

Now that I'm getting used to the SRAM Rival 10s Double-tap shifters on my
Foundry Auger, I can say that I like the feel/actuation of the SRAM system
better than Shimano but less than Campagnolo.
SRAM's double tap system is pretty easy to use once you get the hang of
it.  The two different actuations (short and full) are pretty easy to tell
apart by feel.  Upshifting the front derailer (full sweep left brifter,
small to large chainring) is a bit awkward, but downshifting the rear
derailer (full sweep right brifter, small to large cog) is easy.
The SRAM brifters use a single shift lever (like Campagnolo) but without
the thumb button.  Like Campy, SRAM's brake levers don't pivot sideways to
shift.

However, I give SRAM higher brifter points because its road and MTB
shifters and rear derailleurs are all cross-compatible (for the same speed
category).  Therefore, SRAM makes it easy to fit a wide range cassette with
drop bar controls.
That capability is limited to mid-cage road RDs (that fit a 32t cog) for
Shimano, and Campy doesn't make any RD that will take a wide range cassette
(which is why a "Shimergo" combination is so popular).

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

I've never ridden SRAM brifters.  Not requiring the usage of the thumb
would be preferred for me, but I've only tried it on a stand at the
Hotter N Hell 100 expo.  Seems logical, but I guess I'd have to see
how well I got used to it in practice.  It seems like downshifting
would be similar to mashing the Shimano brake lever to the left,
except it's only the button you're mashing to the left harder than
when you upshift.

My younger sister has one bike with Shimano brifters and one bike with
SRAM brifters.  Unfortunately with her job and travel requirements she
rides on her trainer more often than on the road.  And she is hardcore
about it, she doesn't think anything of riding in the trainer for 4
hours.  When she first got the SRAM bike, a crabon fibre Cervelo, I
asked her if she found it quite a bit different than Shimano and she
said no it didn't seem different at all, but she had at that time not
ridden the bike on an actual road.  When she finally got it out on the
road she was like whoa this is way different, but the last time I rode
with her a few months back she seemed pretty well adapted to it.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> On 12/21/2015 05:53 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I like the ergonomics of the way the Campy hoods attach to the bars,
>> but I don't like the thumb operated Campy downshift mechanism.  I
>> prefer the Shimano style, but that method is probably patented.
>
>
> How do you feel about SRAM's Double Tap approach?
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Mark Reimer]

I love that thumb tab because you can also click it with your pinkie finger 
when your hands are on the 'tops'. 

> On Dec 21, 2015, at 4:53 PM, Jim Bronson  wrote:
> 
> I like the ergonomics of the way the Campy hoods attach to the bars,
> but I don't like the thumb operated Campy downshift mechanism.  I
> prefer the Shimano style, but that method is probably patented.
> 
>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
>> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was running
>> 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with a Shimano
>> 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable at a
>> slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get perfectly
>> indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette, while using
>> the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters. I was
>> impressed.
>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:18 PM, islaysteve  wrote:
>>> 
>>> There's no arguing that Shimano STI brifters are difficult to repair,
>>> whether to remove broken cable or to deep clean in order to get them
>>> shifting properly again.  I did it about 15 years ago, successfully, and I
>>> did my right one recently with the help of some excellent YouTube
>>> instructions.  It's still hard.  I'd like to try Campy, will have to look
>>> into the economics and practicalities of that for the future!  Cheers, Steve
>>> 
>>> --
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>> 
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 05:53 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:

I like the ergonomics of the way the Campy hoods attach to the bars,
but I don't like the thumb operated Campy downshift mechanism.  I
prefer the Shimano style, but that method is probably patented.


How do you feel about SRAM's Double Tap approach?


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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

I like the ergonomics of the way the Campy hoods attach to the bars,
but I don't like the thumb operated Campy downshift mechanism.  I
prefer the Shimano style, but that method is probably patented.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Mark Reimer  wrote:
> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was running
> 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with a Shimano
> 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable at a
> slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get perfectly
> indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette, while using
> the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters. I was
> impressed.
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:18 PM, islaysteve  wrote:
>>
>> There's no arguing that Shimano STI brifters are difficult to repair,
>> whether to remove broken cable or to deep clean in order to get them
>> shifting properly again.  I did it about 15 years ago, successfully, and I
>> did my right one recently with the help of some excellent YouTube
>> instructions.  It's still hard.  I'd like to try Campy, will have to look
>> into the economics and practicalities of that for the future!  Cheers, Steve
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Hugh Smitham]

Sweet!  And a big thank you!!
On Dec 21, 2015 2:32 PM, "Mark Reimer"  wrote:

> Ah, this is what it was called - Hubbub, after Hubbub cycles.
>
>
> http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo#Shimergo
>
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Hugh Smitham 
> wrote:
>
>> Curious anybody know the pull ratios for Shimano 9, 10 & 11 and Campy 10
>> & 11?
>> On Dec 21, 2015 2:23 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>>
 On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was
 running 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with
 a Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable
 at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get
 perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette,
 while using the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters.
 I was impressed.

>>>
>>> Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard
>>> that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Mark Reimer]

Ah, this is what it was called - Hubbub, after Hubbub cycles.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/cyclists-library/components/transmission-gears/derailleur-gears/shimergo#Shimergo

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> Curious anybody know the pull ratios for Shimano 9, 10 & 11 and Campy 10 &
> 11?
> On Dec 21, 2015 2:23 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>>> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was
>>> running 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with
>>> a Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable
>>> at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get
>>> perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette,
>>> while using the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters.
>>> I was impressed.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard
>> that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Hugh Smitham]

Curious anybody know the pull ratios for Shimano 9, 10 & 11 and Campy 10 &
11?
On Dec 21, 2015 2:23 PM, "Steve Palincsar"  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
>> On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was running
>> 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with a
>> Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable
>> at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get
>> perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette,
>> while using the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters.
>> I was impressed.
>>
>
> Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard
> that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 05:20 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was 
running 11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) 
with a Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached 
the cable at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able 
to get perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range 
shimano cassette, while using the more comfortable, reliable and 
rebuildable campy brifters. I was impressed.


Yes, it's said Campag 11 indexes Shimano 9 perfectly, but I'd not heard 
that it would to Shimano 10 with an "alternate" cable mounting location.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Mark Reimer]

On the oregon outback I ran into a guy on an Elephant NFE who was running
11-speed Campy athena brifters (aka the nice silver brifters) with a
Shimano 11-36 TEN speed cassette and XT derailleur. By attached the cable
at a slightly differently location on the bolt, he was able to get
perfectly indexed 10-speed performance with a wide-range shimano cassette,
while using the more comfortable, reliable and rebuildable campy brifters.
I was impressed.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 4:18 PM, islaysteve  wrote:

> There's no arguing that Shimano STI brifters are difficult to repair,
> whether to remove broken cable or to deep clean in order to get them
> shifting properly again.  I did it about 15 years ago, successfully, and I
> did my right one recently with the help of some excellent YouTube
> instructions.  It's still hard.  I'd like to try Campy, will have to look
> into the economics and practicalities of that for the future!  Cheers, Steve
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[islaysteve]

There's no arguing that Shimano STI brifters are difficult to repair, whether 
to remove broken cable or to deep clean in order to get them shifting properly 
again.  I did it about 15 years ago, successfully, and I did my right one 
recently with the help of some excellent YouTube instructions.  It's still 
hard.  I'd like to try Campy, will have to look into the economics and 
practicalities of that for the future!  Cheers, Steve

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 02:14 PM, Jim Bronson wrote:

A good rando always carries a spare shifter cable!  I do!


Thing is, if you get unlucky the cable breaks and leaves little shards 
stuck inside the gears in the shifter mechanism.  Getting them means a 
near disassembly, and several hours of work by a skilled mechanic which 
may end up unsuccessful.  My first encounter with the STI shifter cable 
problem was a few years ago at Bike Virginia in the mountains of SW 
Virginia, when a friend from my bike club showed up at the first rest 
stop with a broken cable.  They had an onsite mechanic, but only at the 
rest stop about 40 miles and 5,000' of elevation change down the road.  
When she got there, they looked at it and told her they had too much of 
a backlog (mainly people whose front derailleurs wouldn't shift on the 
hills) and told her to come to their tent at the end of the ride; when 
she did they told her she'd have to buy a new set brifters.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

A good rando always carries a spare shifter cable!  I do!

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:25 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>
> On 12/21/2015 09:55 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:
>>
>>
>> I did a 200k with the downtube shifting with no ill effects. On a
>> subsequent ride, one rider broke a drive side shifter cable using Shimano
>> brifter. Eventhough he had a replacement, getting the broken cable out of
>> the shifter proved difficult. There is an added layer of complexity to
>> brifters.
>
>
> Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting
> sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  There's something about the
> cable routing inside the shifter unit that tends to fatigue and fray the
> cable, and it happens inside the mechanism where you can't see or feel it
> (bar ends fray cables too, only much more slowly, and when the cable frays
> the loose ends stick you in the finger and alert you to the problem before
> it gets anywhere near the point of failure).  Your first alert usually is
> poor shifting, and sometimes you only have one or two shifts left before the
> cable lets go entirely.  And then, good luck getting the pieces out.   By
> contrast, downtube levers don't seem to fray the cable at all.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

I always just looked down at my cassette to see where I was, when I
ran brifters.

Actually, I do that with bar ends also, just a quick glance.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 7:08 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:
> I do have a question about brifters.  On both my thumbies, and bar-end
> friction shifters on my moustache-cockpit bike, I get a quick visual index
> to what gear I'm in from the shifter position.  Do brifters offer any
> feedback like that? i.e., is there a way to tell what gear you're in by
> looking at your brifters?
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jeremy Till]

The thing about the last two generations of Shimano STI stuff, with the 
shift cables routed along the bar under the tape, is that they are 
extremely sensitive to cable friction, so much so that the 11 speed stuff 
is specified with special polymer-coated shift cables and according to 
Shimano, it will not work properly without them.  My impression of SRAM 
stuff is the same.  So if you're racking up the miles on most brifters 
these days, you're going to feel your shift performance degrade from cable 
friction, and I would guess most people end up replacing their cables and 
housing for this reason long before they've stressed the cable head to the 
point of fraying. As a mechanic I haven't seen frayed cables stuck inside 
of recent Shimano, SRAM, or Campy brifters, only on the older 
external-cable Shimano units, but maybe that's because they route the cable 
so cleanly that they keep on working and working and working until you snap 
your cable?

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 7:57:43 AM UTC-8, William deRosset wrote:
>
> >Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting  
> >sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  Dear Steve,
>
> The current generation (6800;9000;5800) 11-speed shimano shifters 
> reportedly eat cables faster than the 8/9s stuff ever did. The cables are 
> now consumables--replace cable inners with every other chain to be on the 
> safe side? The sad thing is that the minimum bend radius to prevent fraying 
> is known (or easily calculated anyway if the cable is specified), and 
> Shimano has consistently failed to make that effort. The Campagnolo shifter 
> drum is probably pretty close to that radius. Their 8/9/10s Ergo levers and 
> index-only downtube shifters didn't/don't eat cables at all. Honestly, 
> neither do Shimano's DT levers, but the Simplex and Suntour drums were 
> smaller sometimes did. I can't speak to bar-ends, as I've never really 
> warmed up to them. I reluctantly use them on cyclocross bikes (not 
> high-mileage machines, and the bike in a race only needs two gears--42X25 
> and something in the middle of the freewheel given my skills. I end up 
> running a lot), tried really hard to like them back when I first adopted 
> half-step gearing. John Forrester said they were the right thing to use 
> with that gear system, and I just can't agree. Downtube shifters win 
> there). If I must keep my hands on the bars (some tandems, mtb, and cx), I 
> prefer thumbshifters or Ergo levers.
>
> Best,
>
> Will
> William M. deRosset
> Fort Collins, CO
>
>
> On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:25:11 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/21/2015 09:55 AM, Brian Campbell wrote: 
>> > 
>> > I did a 200k with the downtube shifting with no ill effects. On a 
>> > subsequent ride, one rider broke a drive side shifter cable using 
>> > Shimano brifter. Eventhough he had a replacement, getting the broken 
>> > cable out of the shifter proved difficult. There is an added layer of 
>> > complexity to brifters. 
>>
>> Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting 
>> sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  There's something about 
>> the cable routing inside the shifter unit that tends to fatigue and fray 
>> the cable, and it happens inside the mechanism where you can't see or 
>> feel it (bar ends fray cables too, only much more slowly, and when the 
>> cable frays the loose ends stick you in the finger and alert you to the 
>> problem before it gets anywhere near the point of failure).  Your first 
>> alert usually is poor shifting, and sometimes you only have one or two 
>> shifts left before the cable lets go entirely.  And then, good luck 
>> getting the pieces out.   By contrast, downtube levers don't seem to 
>> fray the cable at all. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Mark Reimer]

I have Campy Athena ergo levers on my Gios Torino Super Record, same cables
for about five years. My riding season is shorter here so consider that,
but the ergo levers were really a 'set it and forget it' system. I didn't
even have in-line cable adjusters. They never went out of alignment ONCE,
and this is 11-speed! The campy system is just so good. Plus the brifters
are 100% rebuildable!

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/21/2015 10:57 AM, William deRosset wrote:
>
>> >Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting
>> >sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  Dear Steve,
>>
>> The current generation (6800;9000;5800) 11-speed shimano shifters
>> reportedly eat cables faster than the 8/9s stuff ever did. The cables are
>> now consumables--replace cable inners with every other chain to be on the
>> safe side? The sad thing is that the minimum bend radius to prevent fraying
>> is known (or easily calculated anyway if the cable is specified), and
>> Shimano has consistently failed to make that effort. The Campagnolo shifter
>> drum is probably pretty close to that radius. Their 8/9/10s Ergo levers and
>> index-only downtube shifters didn't/don't eat cables at all. Honestly,
>> neither do Shimano's DT levers, but the Simplex and Suntour drums were
>> smaller sometimes did. I can't speak to bar-ends, as I've never really
>> warmed up to them. I reluctantly use them on cyclocross bikes (not
>> high-mileage machines, and the bike in a race only needs two gears--42X25
>> and something in the middle of the freewheel given my skills. I end up
>> running a lot), tried really hard to like them back when I first adopted
>> half-step gearing. John Forrester said they were the right thing to use
>> with that gear system, and I just can't agree. Downtube shifters win
>> there). If I must keep my hands on the bars (some tandems, mtb, and cx), I
>> prefer thumbshifters or Ergo levers.
>>
>>
> In my experience, Shimano indexed bar ends fray a cable about every 5,000
> miles.  Sun Tour Sprint levers adapted to bar end use will fray a right
> hand cable about every 10,000 miles.
>
> I have heard that Ergo does not eat cables.  No word at all on SRAM --
> either that means not many are using it (which I doubt) or it means cable
> fraying isn't an issue with SRAM Double Tap either.
>
> How much you like downtube levers depends a lot in my experience on where
> your hand is when you drop it.  For Jan, when he drops his hand it is on
> the downtube shift lever.  I assume for you it's the same.  For me, it's
> way high up, and requires a body bend and reach almost on a par with
> reaching for a water bottle.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 10:57 AM, William deRosset wrote:

>Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting
>sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  Dear Steve,

The current generation (6800;9000;5800) 11-speed shimano shifters 
reportedly eat cables faster than the 8/9s stuff ever did. The cables 
are now consumables--replace cable inners with every other chain to be 
on the safe side? The sad thing is that the minimum bend radius to 
prevent fraying is known (or easily calculated anyway if the cable is 
specified), and Shimano has consistently failed to make that effort. 
The Campagnolo shifter drum is probably pretty close to that radius. 
Their 8/9/10s Ergo levers and index-only downtube shifters 
didn't/don't eat cables at all. Honestly, neither do Shimano's DT 
levers, but the Simplex and Suntour drums were smaller sometimes did. 
I can't speak to bar-ends, as I've never really warmed up to them. I 
reluctantly use them on cyclocross bikes (not high-mileage machines, 
and the bike in a race only needs two gears--42X25 and something in 
the middle of the freewheel given my skills. I end up running a lot), 
tried really hard to like them back when I first adopted half-step 
gearing. John Forrester said they were the right thing to use with 
that gear system, and I just can't agree. Downtube shifters win 
there). If I must keep my hands on the bars (some tandems, mtb, and 
cx), I prefer thumbshifters or Ergo levers.




In my experience, Shimano indexed bar ends fray a cable about every 
5,000 miles.  Sun Tour Sprint levers adapted to bar end use will fray a 
right hand cable about every 10,000 miles.


I have heard that Ergo does not eat cables.  No word at all on SRAM -- 
either that means not many are using it (which I doubt) or it means 
cable fraying isn't an issue with SRAM Double Tap either.


How much you like downtube levers depends a lot in my experience on 
where your hand is when you drop it.  For Jan, when he drops his hand it 
is on the downtube shift lever.  I assume for you it's the same.  For 
me, it's way high up, and requires a body bend and reach almost on a par 
with reaching for a water bottle.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[William deRosset]

>Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting  
>sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  Dear Steve,

The current generation (6800;9000;5800) 11-speed shimano shifters 
reportedly eat cables faster than the 8/9s stuff ever did. The cables are 
now consumables--replace cable inners with every other chain to be on the 
safe side? The sad thing is that the minimum bend radius to prevent fraying 
is known (or easily calculated anyway if the cable is specified), and 
Shimano has consistently failed to make that effort. The Campagnolo shifter 
drum is probably pretty close to that radius. Their 8/9/10s Ergo levers and 
index-only downtube shifters didn't/don't eat cables at all. Honestly, 
neither do Shimano's DT levers, but the Simplex and Suntour drums were 
smaller sometimes did. I can't speak to bar-ends, as I've never really 
warmed up to them. I reluctantly use them on cyclocross bikes (not 
high-mileage machines, and the bike in a race only needs two gears--42X25 
and something in the middle of the freewheel given my skills. I end up 
running a lot), tried really hard to like them back when I first adopted 
half-step gearing. John Forrester said they were the right thing to use 
with that gear system, and I just can't agree. Downtube shifters win 
there). If I must keep my hands on the bars (some tandems, mtb, and cx), I 
prefer thumbshifters or Ergo levers.

Best,

Will
William M. deRosset
Fort Collins, CO


On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:25:11 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 12/21/2015 09:55 AM, Brian Campbell wrote: 
> > 
> > I did a 200k with the downtube shifting with no ill effects. On a 
> > subsequent ride, one rider broke a drive side shifter cable using 
> > Shimano brifter. Eventhough he had a replacement, getting the broken 
> > cable out of the shifter proved difficult. There is an added layer of 
> > complexity to brifters. 
>
> Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting 
> sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  There's something about 
> the cable routing inside the shifter unit that tends to fatigue and fray 
> the cable, and it happens inside the mechanism where you can't see or 
> feel it (bar ends fray cables too, only much more slowly, and when the 
> cable frays the loose ends stick you in the finger and alert you to the 
> problem before it gets anywhere near the point of failure).  Your first 
> alert usually is poor shifting, and sometimes you only have one or two 
> shifts left before the cable lets go entirely.  And then, good luck 
> getting the pieces out.   By contrast, downtube levers don't seem to 
> fray the cable at all. 
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 09:55 AM, Brian Campbell wrote:


I did a 200k with the downtube shifting with no ill effects. On a 
subsequent ride, one rider broke a drive side shifter cable using 
Shimano brifter. Eventhough he had a replacement, getting the broken 
cable out of the shifter proved difficult. There is an added layer of 
complexity to brifters.


Right hand Shimano STI levers - especially those with the cable exiting 
sideways - are known for eating shifter cables.  There's something about 
the cable routing inside the shifter unit that tends to fatigue and fray 
the cable, and it happens inside the mechanism where you can't see or 
feel it (bar ends fray cables too, only much more slowly, and when the 
cable frays the loose ends stick you in the finger and alert you to the 
problem before it gets anywhere near the point of failure).  Your first 
alert usually is poor shifting, and sometimes you only have one or two 
shifts left before the cable lets go entirely.  And then, good luck 
getting the pieces out.   By contrast, downtube levers don't seem to 
fray the cable at all.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 09:54 AM, Ron Mc wrote:
Kind of a cryptic question, but.  Our 30 miles was from their house, 
neighborhood rolling hills, onto a major thoroughfare to access a 
paved greenway path for the bulk of the ride. The greenway is twisty 
and up and down bluffs following a creek (flood zone) - part of it was 
also along a bike expressway, exposed to a stiff south wind.  Tandems 
are inertia machines with twice the power and half the drag for 
similar rolling resistance.  My bike is a very good climbing machine, 
but keeping up with the tandem on descents required using each one of 
my gears to chase when they were coasting by maintaining a good spin. 
I did the same thing on climbs, which was also my catch-up, where he 
would typically make one shift to their low spin/mash gear.  I made a 
dozen shifts for each of theirs.  My shifts were rolling knuckle or 
pulling thumb.  His shifts were at least partly spared by the fact 
that it's a laborious reach from the hoods to the bottom outside of 
the woodchipper bars.




I've never used Woodchipper handlebars, but I have used drop bars with 
bar end shifters for many years, including on tandems (having owned a 
tandem since 1975).  I really don't understand "laborious reach" in this 
context, unless the bars really don't fit the captain and have far too 
much drop.  If that's true, then the bar end position is basically 
unusable for him -- and if so, then what's the point of those bars?


Come to it, I have difficulty understanding the captain's shifting 
strategy based on your description.   Riding tandem in rolling country I 
shift a lot: often all the way to top gear on the way down, then through 
the bottom and up the other side dropping gear after gear to keep the 
pedal effort the same and paying out momentum to keep the roll going.  
Go over the top and start down and it's upshift, upshift and upshift, 
building momentum.   I'd coast when I had spun out my 54x12.


That's pretty much the exact opposite of what you're describing, and 
probably pretty close to your shifting strategy.  It definitely means a 
lot of shifting, and it does as you say depend on quickly and 
effortlessly reaching the shifters.  For me, with bar ends it would be 
dead simple, since on those downhill stretches I'd usually be on the bar 
ends anyway, where I could shift with the heel of my hand or with my 
pinkie and ring finger.   But even if I'm not riding on the bar ends, on 
the hoods instead, it's still not much of a reach to the shifters, 
certainly nothing like the reach to downtube levers, and doesn't involve 
bending the body -- again, unless there's something really off about how 
the bars are sized (excessively deep drop, for example).





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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Brian Campbell]

I have used Shimano Ultegra and Tiagra level brifters, as well as, Campy 8 
Speed Ergo power. All worked fine. I have currently switched my bikes back 
to indexed downtube shifters. (10 speed Dura Ace on my Hilsen and 7 Speed 
Shimano, on my Woodrup). Having learned to ride on downtube shifters, I 
don't find them that off-putting. Recently, I have been doing core 
strengthening exercises, about 7 months now, and find this makes using down 
tube shifters easier. On longer rides I am fining I like the additional 
movement that is a part of down tube shifter use. Bending forward, sitting 
up a bit, all help keep me from getting fixed in one position.

I did a 200k with the downtube shifting with no ill effects. On a 
subsequent ride, one rider broke a drive side shifter cable using Shimano 
brifter. Eventhough he had a replacement, getting the broken cable out of 
the shifter proved difficult. There is an added layer of complexity to 
brifters. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Ron Mc]

Kind of a cryptic question, but.  Our 30 miles was from their house, 
neighborhood rolling hills, onto a major thoroughfare to access a paved 
greenway path for the bulk of the ride. The greenway is twisty and up and 
down bluffs following a creek (flood zone) - part of it was also along a 
bike expressway, exposed to a stiff south wind.  Tandems are inertia 
machines with twice the power and half the drag for similar rolling 
resistance.  My bike is a very good climbing machine, but keeping up with 
the tandem on descents required using each one of my gears to chase when 
they were coasting by maintaining a good spin. I did the same thing on 
climbs, which was also my catch-up, where he would typically make one shift 
to their low spin/mash gear.  I made a dozen shifts for each of theirs.  My 
shifts were rolling knuckle or pulling thumb.  His shifts were at least 
partly spared by the fact that it's a laborious reach from the hoods to the 
bottom outside of the woodchipper bars.  

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:05:14 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12/21/2015 08:05 AM, Ron Mc wrote: 
> > I've never even considered clipless pedals.  Still on the first year 
> > of my first ever index-shift bike (9-speed thumbies).  I chased my 
> > friends on their tandem for 30 miles yesterday (it was a good workout, 
> > and I left them behind for the last 4 miles).  Watching him bar-end 
> > (index) shift on the end of his woodchippers, I saw what a chore bar 
> > end shifting could be, 
>
> What kind of chore was that? 
>
> > and really made me appreciate my thumbies.  Part of the reason I was 
> > able to keep up with a tandem (those two turn Fast together) was the 
> > quick mindless shifting of my setup.  So  while I'm still not tempted, 
> > I can see the advantage to brifters. 
> > 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 08:05 AM, Ron Mc wrote:
I've never even considered clipless pedals.  Still on the first year 
of my first ever index-shift bike (9-speed thumbies).  I chased my 
friends on their tandem for 30 miles yesterday (it was a good workout, 
and I left them behind for the last 4 miles).  Watching him bar-end 
(index) shift on the end of his woodchippers, I saw what a chore bar 
end shifting could be,


What kind of chore was that?

and really made me appreciate my thumbies.  Part of the reason I was 
able to keep up with a tandem (those two turn Fast together) was the 
quick mindless shifting of my setup.  So  while I'm still not tempted, 
I can see the advantage to brifters.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/21/2015 08:08 AM, Ron Mc wrote:
I do have a question about brifters.  On both my thumbies, and bar-end 
friction shifters on my moustache-cockpit bike, I get a quick visual 
index to what gear I'm in from the shifter position.  Do brifters 
offer any feedback like that? i.e., is there a way to tell what gear 
you're in by looking at your brifters?




No, that's why some versions include little gauges to show you what gear 
you're in.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 6:08:28 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "Brifter" is a mashup of BRake lever and shIFTER. I'm pretty sure it was 
> invented by Grant, and not intended to be a denigrating label. It's simply 
> a way to call them something without using "STI" or a long phrase like 
> "integrated brake/shift lever."

 
 Sheldon Brown's glossary names the person who coined the term:
 
A combination brake/shift lever, such as a *Campagnolo* 
 *Ergo* 
 or *Shimano* 
 *S.T.I.* 
 unit. This term was coined by 
Bruce Frech.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Joe Bernard]

"Brifter" is a mashup of BRake lever and shIFTER. I'm pretty sure it was 
invented by Grant, and not intended to be a denigrating label. It's simply a 
way to call them something without using "STI" or a long phrase like 
"integrated brake/shift lever."

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

I think the reason i use "brifter" is because I'm too lazy to type out
"dual control lever".  Perhaps if we used an acronym?  DCL?

"I decided to go with DCL instead of bar-ends"

perhaps?

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:01 PM, Eddie Flayer  wrote:
> tongue in cheek, but to some degree I think the term Luddite is apropos in
> this conversation. Of course bar ends and downtubes are just fine, but the
> dual control lever is a work of engineering art all to itself. Maybe we
> should call them paddle shifters. Me thinks a great invention. To each their
> own.
>
>
> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:05:33 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I find myself re-thinking my allegiance to bar-ends, because I sweat
>> so much between May and September riding here in Texas, that I gum
>> them up fairly regularly.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Christopher Murray]

I think brifters are great if I am riding on the hoods. With any other position 
the advantage/ convenience compared to BEs is negligible (and maybe advantage 
BE). That said, I almost always ride on the hoods on my roadish bike.

Cheers!
Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

When I used brifters more often, I did simultaneous shifts all the
time, especially when transitioning from the big ring to the middle
ring.  I'd hit the button on both brifters to go to a smaller ring on
both front and back, and it would be a perfect transition every time.
Well ok one time I dropped my chain, but that was the only time I can
ever remember that happening and I'd done a similar shift hundreds if
not thousands of times.

Now, the remnants of my go-fast bike are in spare parts boxes in my garage.

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:40 PM, jeffrey kane  wrote:
> Personally, I prefer the term dual-control lever. And while I love them --
> loved Shimano 9, loved Campy Record 10 -- I didn't like Shimano 10 and
> haven't been able to settle on a choice for a new set. I hate telling myself
> how much I like D/T shifters. I mean, I'm already a grouch but still ... I
> can't get over how much I like their ease, ergonomics and overall genius of
> design .. and I love that simultaneous one-handed front and back shifting.
> Heck, I'm currently running D/T shifters as preference over Shimano 10 dual
> control levers on my commuter bike these days ... in NYC traffic!
>
> That said, Sram has my eye. I'd like to do a 1x set up with that crazy
> 10-/42 rear cassette on my commuter ... and one day I swear I'm gonna shave
> off my cable stops and go for that e-Tap system. Come on man: just 4 parts
> and no wires, cables or housing ... just bolt 'em on, pair 'em up and go.
> But first, lets see how the pros do next season all bunched up together
> mixing up wireless signals and all. I 'm happy to wait a few years for the
> wide range mtb/touring version anyway.
>
> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 11:05:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I find myself re-thinking my allegiance to bar-ends, because I sweat
>> so much between May and September riding here in Texas, that I gum
>> them up fairly regularly.
>>
>> Then something like this comes up.
>>
>> http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?partNumber=YS-ST4600-BASE&catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&langId=-1&utm_source=nashbar&utm_medium=email&utm_content=151210Th&utm_campaign=Products&cm_mmc=Email-_-nashbar-_-151210Th-_-Products&cm_em=jim.bron...@gmail.com&spMailingID=12498453&spUserID=NjA1MzcwOTY2NDES1&spJobID=643355659&spReportId=NjQzMzU1NjU5S0
>>
>> And I find myself feeling conflicted.  This is only a little more than
>> what Riv sells bar-ends for...
>>
>> --
>> --
>> signature goes here
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Jim Bronson]

My experience is the opposite.  I've never worn out 9 speed 105 or
Ultegra brifters, but I go through a set of bar ends every year.

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:38 PM, cyclotour...@gmail.com
 wrote:
> I like them a lot. I didn't go out of my way to get some, but they came on a
> used bike I bought. And, they're great! Especially for spirited off-road
> riding, when you're in the drops and don't want to let go of your grip to
> move your hand. Amazing in that application!
>
> But they do wear out significantly faster than bar-ends, and I can see how
> they're prone to ride-ending damage in a crash. I almost treat them like a
> replaceable wear item like a chain or even tires. They last longer than
> those of course, but nowhere near what bar ends (decade) or friction
> (lifetime) shifters do.
>
> Very intrigued by the Simergo 11 to 9 set set up, and will probably do that
> when my current Ultegras wear out (they're starting to shift poorly right
> now).
>
>
> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:05:33 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I find myself re-thinking my allegiance to bar-ends, because I sweat
>> so much between May and September riding here in Texas, that I gum
>> them up fairly regularly.
>>
>> Then something like this comes up.
>>
>> http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?partNumber=YS-ST4600-BASE&catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&langId=-1&utm_source=nashbar&utm_medium=email&utm_content=151210Th&utm_campaign=Products&cm_mmc=Email-_-nashbar-_-151210Th-_-Products&cm_em=jim.bron...@gmail.com&spMailingID=12498453&spUserID=NjA1MzcwOTY2NDES1&spJobID=643355659&spReportId=NjQzMzU1NjU5S0
>>
>> And I find myself feeling conflicted.  This is only a little more than
>> what Riv sells bar-ends for...
>>
>> --
>> --
>> signature goes here
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Joe Bernard]

I agree about the Silver bar-end for triple cranks. My highly eccentric Bike 
Friday cockpit is a SOMA mustache-like bar (Ergon grips, I don't use the curved 
portion) with a Shimano Sora brifter for the rear and Silver bar-end for the 
front. My Itty bitty hands struggle to make front shifts by pushing a lever 
sideways, I'm much happier with the pull-up/push-down movement for front 
shifting. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Bill Lindsay]

"I'll say this though:   The comfort/ergonomics of most brifters, including 
the one you linked, is *vastly* superior to any lever-only design out 
there, that I've found"

Another notable exception is SRAM.  The S500 brakelevers are brifters with 
the guts ripped out.  They are still very heavy (~270g) and are still very 
expensive (~$100), but they have a that contemporary ergonomic shape of a 
brifter...because it's the same thing.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Tim Gavin]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:54 AM, iamkeith  wrote:

>
>
> I'll say this though:   The comfort/ergonomics of most brifters, including
> the one you linked, is *vastly* superior to any lever-only design out
> there, that I've found. The hoods themselves are large enough that they're
> actually a joy to rest your hands on (indeed this seems to be the primary
> hand position for most modern road bikes), and the levers are way easier to
> reach from the drop position even when the brake body is mounted high
> enough to be utilized as a true hand perch.  (Hopefully that makes sense -
> I'm a mountain biker who happens to own a couple of road bikes, but the
> terminology is foreign to me.  Basically, on a bar like the noodle, I seem
> to have to choose between being able to comfortably and readily reach the
> levers from the drop position without a strained contortion of my hands and
> body, or being able to comfortably rest on the hoods when I want to ride in
> that position.  The brake levers are also easier and more effective to
> operate from the hoods themselves, but the TRP ones that Riv sells do a
> better job of this than most.
>
>
I agree that most brake-only levers have dated ergonomics, and don't really
give good hand positions on the hoods or ramps.  That's because most
brake-only levers haven't been re-designed since the early 90s.  I didn't
grow up with non-aero levers, so I don't appreciate a point at the top of
the hood.

The TRP RRL levers, in contrast, have modern ergonomics that mirror
Campagnolo 10s Ergopowers.  I find that they are very comfortable on the
hoods and ramps, as are most modern brifters.  I have no problem reaching
the brake lever from any hand position, but then again I have pretty large
hands.  A small wedge is included with the TRP RRL levers that may change
that lever reach somewhat.


To the overall discussion, I'll add that my control choice is definitely
influenced by my gearing configuration.
With a triple crank, I accept only a Silver bar-end shifter.  Every other
shifter I've tried with a triple crank has been disappointing (twist grip
shifters, Campy 8s Ergos, Shimano STI brifters, thumb shifters, or trigger
shifters).
The left Silver bar-end seems to pull a lot of cable (compared to Shimano
bar-ends), so shifts require only a small movement of the lever.  I can
over-shift it a bit if I want to force a shift, and it's super easy to trim.
No other shifter is as satisfactory for me with a triple crank.  Therefore,
both of my bikes with triples have bar-ends.
I haven't tried more modern Campy Ergos with a triple, and their multiple
standards (quickshift, ultrashift) keeps me from even trying.

With a double crank, I've found indexed/integrated shifters to work just
fine.  And, with a wide-range 10s cassette, I don't really see the need for
a triple crank any more.  I don't think I'll spec one on any new builds.
 (Sorry for any offense to the retro-grouches out there.  I respect the
retro-simple aesthetic and ascribe to most of its tenets, but triples are
losing ground in my preferences.)


With all that said, I'll admit that I don't like the wrist twisting motion
required for brifters.  I've injured my wrists enough over the years that
they're usually a bit tender, and that twisting gets uncomfortable,
especially when my arms are tired from riding.  The up/down motion of a
bar-end or downtube shifter is much more comfortable for my wrist.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Patrick Moore]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:54 AM, iamkeith  wrote:

> I have one set, of Ultegra STI 9 speeds on my RB-1.  I do like them, but
> mostly for variety's sake.  It's kind of fun to have one bike upon which
> regular and frequent shifting is part of the ride experience. If I had to
> choose or only had one bike, I still like simple, separate shift levers of
> one sort of another though.  Ignoring the durability and adjustment issues,
> something about the inherent side-to-side wobble of the brifter levers is
> unnerving to me.  My favorite system for drop bars are the Kelly take-off
> mounts.
>

I've only tried brifters "around the block" and found the shift action
rather awkward and annoying -- I had to push the lever inward so far it
felt awkward. I do love Silver BES and use them on my off road bike -- 9
speed; they are precise enough and the lever is long enough that I get
pretty good control; interesting: the Microshift derailleur that got into
the spokes and exploded was more precise than the replacement Dura Ace
7410; but the last shifts fine anyway -- just a lot more movement of the
derailleur for a given movement of the BES.

But!! With the new Race Lite and its 9 speed trigger shifters --- man, *how
easy it is to shift!!* I generally don't shift much, either on- or off
road, but I find myself tempted to shift a lot more with these triggers --
partly of course because the gaps between gears are so big and I'm always
searching for the right one. New cog and ring arrangements in planning.

One shifting system I liked a great deal on road was the old Kelly
Take-Offs, that put dt shifters just inboard of the brake hoods. I found
these particularly nice for half stepping, and I could shift from hoods as
well as hooks. I wonder how they'd do off road 


>
> I'll say this though:   The comfort/ergonomics of most brifters, including
> the one you linked, is *vastly* superior to any lever-only design out
> there, that I've found. The hoods themselves are large enough that they're
> actually a joy to rest your hands on (indeed this seems to be the primary
> hand position for most modern road bikes), and the levers are way easier to
> reach from the drop position even when the brake body is mounted high
> enough to be utilized as a true hand perch.
>
>
I know that it's each to his-er-her own, but I find the "traditional"
Shimano aero, pre-brifter hoods very comfortable, and try to install these
on all my road bikes. In fact, I like them better than the Tektro or Cane
Creek V-brake drop bar levers on the dirt road bike (formerly known as
Fargo, shortly, God willing, to be known as Matthews Custom Cycles) which I
find, frankly, too long. There seems to be a natural transition between the
long, flat ramp of the Maes Parallel and the Shimano aero hood, with a very
definite stop in just the right place.

I suppose all of this is simply to say that brake hood shapes and shifter
positions are almost as personal a taste as saddles and gearing.


>
> --
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Patrick Moore
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

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Re: [RBW] Re: Do you ever find yourself tempted by brifters?

[Randall Rupp]

I've got a bike with Shimano Ultegra 6800 11-speed shifters and they are
really nice.  Light touch and shifts great.  Haven't had them more than 18
months so I can't comment on durability.  I have had some Campy Veloce
10-speed shifters in a shimergo setup for more the 4 years and they have a
more mechanical feel to them which I like.  I haven't had any problems with
them.

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 1:38 PM, cyclotour...@gmail.com <
cyclotour...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I like them a lot. I didn't go out of my way to get some, but they came on
> a used bike I bought. And, they're great! Especially for spirited off-road
> riding, when you're in the drops and don't want to let go of your grip to
> move your hand. Amazing in that application!
>
> But they do wear out *significantly *faster than bar-ends, and I can see
> how they're prone to ride-ending damage in a crash. I almost treat them
> like a replaceable wear item like a chain or even tires. They last longer
> than those of course, but nowhere near what bar ends (decade) or friction
> (lifetime) shifters do.
>
> Very intrigued by the Simergo 11 to 9 set set up, and will probably do
> that when my current Ultegras wear out (they're starting to shift poorly
> right now).
>
>
> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:05:33 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
>> I find myself re-thinking my allegiance to bar-ends, because I sweat
>> so much between May and September riding here in Texas, that I gum
>> them up fairly regularly.
>>
>> Then something like this comes up.
>>
>> http://www.nashbar.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?partNumber=YS-ST4600-BASE&catalogId=10052&storeId=10053&langId=-1&utm_source=nashbar&utm_medium=email&utm_content=151210Th&utm_campaign=Products&cm_mmc=Email-_-nashbar-_-151210Th-_-Products&cm_em=jim.bron...@gmail.com&spMailingID=12498453&spUserID=NjA1MzcwOTY2NDES1&spJobID=643355659&spReportId=NjQzMzU1NjU5S0
>>
>> And I find myself feeling conflicted.  This is only a little more than
>> what Riv sells bar-ends for...
>>
>> --
>> --
>> signature goes here
>>
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-- 
Randall Rupp
rcr...@gmail.com

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