Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for this perspective. It seems that one great disadvantage of CF is
that it suffers easily from wear, or at least from scratches; overcoming
this and building for long term durability for everyday use and inexpert
maintenance by the ill trained masses, I wonder how much of a weight
advantage would be left. Of course, you may be able to tune the ride better
than you can with steel --? I don't know.

Perhaps Wayne is right and CF is best left for special use high maintenance
short life sorts of applications?

CF Pros for mass market bicycle use:
Weight and Strength? Weight but not strength/strength but not weight?
Ride tuneability
Shape tuneability


Steel ditto:
Lasts years
Easily adaptable for size and ride qualities
Easy to maintain
Inexpensive (relatively)
Easy to repair and modify


I hope others will add to these lists -- after thinking about their entries!



On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Wayne Naha  wrote:

> I used to work for a well known helicopter manufacturer.  I worked as a
> mechanic, building helicopters.  I can tell you, those helicopters use a
> lot of carbon fiber composite.  They wouldn't fly without it.  And being
> that it has to fly, they are pretty weight weenie about parts, spare no
> expense, really.  $50.00 titanium screws and what not.  But the main thing
> the manufacturer can't do is kill people, though.  The equivalent of one
> steerer tube failure would put an end to that.  The FAA is not the most
> proactive agency, but one thing they do not like is headlines about
> aircraft falling out of the sky.  That's bad for business.  So design tends
> to be conservative.  This is what amazes me about the current state of
> carbon fiber bicycle frame manufacturing.  The disregard for customer
> safety and the complacency with respect to safety.  Carbon fiber works in
> aviation because the design emphasis is on safety and reliability, then
> weight.  Qualified technicians inspect the aircraft before every flight and
> at regular specified intervals, and damage tolerance is very low.  Good ol'
> Bubba doesn't decide if a nick or scratch requires a repair, the structural
> repair manual does.  Also, carbon fiber is not used exclusively.  If wear
> and abrasion is expected, as in the leading edge of a main rotor blade,
> then metal, usually very thin titanium or stainless steel is bonded on top
> of the carbon fiber.  So I would say that carbon fiber is an excellent
> material if designed intelligently and used intelligently, but it is not as
> forgiving as steel.  Steel tolerates damage that carbon fiber doesn't.
> People are used to steel, but don't understand that carbon fiber requires
> more from them.  Is that stone chip a problem?  With steel it's not, but
> with carbon fiber it's different.  It's an easy answer in aviation.  Look
> it up in the structural repair manual.  There you will read: does the
> damage exceed such a depth, such a width, such a length, is it located in a
> critical area, and so forth.  Then you will know, yes its safe or no it
> needs a repair.  Do carbon fiber bikes come with structural repair
> manuals?  They should.  In my mind, carbon fiber is best reserved for
> professional rides for whom weight is critical AND who have qualified
> mechanics inspecting the bikes every time they are ridden.  I really doubt
> that individual users understand the maintenance requirements of carbon
> fiber, or are capable of and willing to meet them.  Carbon fiber requires
> maintenance, and that is expensive and inconvenient.  Even aluminum is a
> lot more rugged.
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

['Bikie#4646' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Scott, if you do decide to have Dave do the work for you, you can't go 
wrong, IMHO. My Ellis SS: 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/ssg/2010/ssg298-paulgermain0510.htm

Paul Germain

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 7:14:04 PM UTC-5, Scott G. wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:34:00 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>>
>> Scott: do you own a  ?
>>
>
> No, just seen them.
>
> I own a Chris Kvale, next bike will be by Dave Wages.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could 
> be worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent 
> material for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my 
> riding, the 52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in 
> weight and (possible) improvement in strength.
>
 
I think the problem is you're not comparing apples to apples.  
Yes, a Crumpton will cost $5300 for a frame. But he is considered one of 
the top carbon frame builders in the US and maybe the world. Yes, you can 
get a "premium" steel frame for less, maybe even 52% less. But, if you 
really want to compare a Crumpton, then you should compare it to what the 
top steel frame builders charge.
 
Since there are 100s of steel frame builders in the US, one way to compare 
is to look at wait list. Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla have 
arguably the longest wait list for steel builders that has people waiting 5 
to 6 YEARS?!  If that makes them the "top" steel frame builders, then the 
price of a custom Sachs or Vanilla is around $5000 or about the same as a 
Crumpton. 
 
Further, Brent Steelman is asking $4850 for a custom lug frame and others 
like Bruce Gordon and Mark DiNucci are in the $4000+ range. In contrast, a 
custom Riv is "only" $3500 and I last I heard, their wait list is about two 
years?! 
 
Of course, you can find quality steel builders for less, i.e., Della Santa 
or Paul Sadoff/Rock Lobster, but if you want to compare apples to apples, 
you look at the builders with the longest wait list first. Or at least, 
that is one criteria.
 
Good Luck!

>
> I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories, 
> steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and 
> so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*" 
> history.)
>
> *1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903.
>
> Scott: do you own a Crumpton?
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G.  > wrote:
>
>> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm 
>> tires.
>> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike.
>>
>> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike.
>>
>> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy.
>>
>>
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>
>
>
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> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

It's not a problem at all! If I had $5,300 to put on a frame, I'd seriously
research the pros and cons of carbon fiber. I am not convinced that CF is
better than steel for bike frames, but I am starting to believe that, at
its best, it may well be so. That's why I'd like to see a rigorous,
dispassionate comparison.

But for my own purposes and budget, even if CF should be better than steel
when optimally used, it wouldn't be worth the premium at current custom CF
prices. (Once again, I have little interest in current mass market CF
offerings.)

Now if someone started making a $3K custom frameset in CF that rode and
lasted like a Rivendell, I'd seriously consider it. Seriously! I need one
with 120 OL rear spacing for my new AM hub.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could
>> be worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent
>> material for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my
>> riding, the 52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in
>> weight and (possible) improvement in strength.
>>
>
> I think the problem is you're not comparing apples to apples.
> Yes, a Crumpton will cost $5300 for a frame. But he is considered one of
> the top carbon frame builders in the US and maybe the world. Yes, you can
> get a "premium" steel frame for less, maybe even 52% less. But, if you
> really want to compare a Crumpton, then you should compare it to what the
> top steel frame builders charge.
>
> Since there are 100s of steel frame builders in the US, one way to compare
> is to look at wait list. Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla have
> arguably the longest wait list for steel builders that has people waiting 5
> to 6 YEARS?!  If that makes them the "top" steel frame builders, then the
> price of a custom Sachs or Vanilla is around $5000 or about the same as a
> Crumpton.
>
> Further, Brent Steelman is asking $4850 for a custom lug frame and others
> like Bruce Gordon and Mark DiNucci are in the $4000+ range. In contrast, a
> custom Riv is "only" $3500 and I last I heard, their wait list is about two
> years?!
>
> Of course, you can find quality steel builders for less, i.e., Della Santa
> or Paul Sadoff/Rock Lobster, but if you want to compare apples to apples,
> you look at the builders with the longest wait list first. Or at least,
> that is one criteria.
>
> Good Luck!
>
>>
>> I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories,
>> steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and
>> so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*"
>> history.)
>>
>> *1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903.
>>
>> Scott: do you own a Crumpton?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G.  wrote:
>>
>>> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm
>>> tires.
>>> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike.
>>>
>>> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike.
>>>
>>> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Ryan Fleming]

There isn't much of a wait and they are still available. I've been told my 
frame could be ready by this spring. I'm not too fussed if it's later

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 12:29:38 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> The last update about customs from Riv is that there's not much of a wait. 
> They haven't promoted them in years, and I suspect a lot of people think 
> custom Rivendells aren't a thing anymore. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Joe Bernard]

The last update about customs from Riv is that there's not much of a wait. They 
haven't promoted them in years, and I suspect a lot of people think custom 
Rivendells aren't a thing anymore. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Scott G.]

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:34:00 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

>
> Scott: do you own a Crumpton?
>

No, just seen them.

I own a Chris Kvale, next bike will be by Dave Wages.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

Photos, please!

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Bill M.  wrote:

> Calfee can provide such a bike as well.
>
> Double the price?  Maybe, maybe not.  I have owned a Rivendell Road and
> still own a Calfee Tetra.  A Calfee Tetra Pro frame with fork runs $3670 -
> $3895, though options can push that higher.  Certainly not double the price
> of a custom Riv ($3500), not quite double the price of a Roadeo ($2200).
> Both are hand built frames.  The Riv is prettier, the Calfee is lighter.
> Both handle well.  The Calfee is, dare I say it, faster in a sprint or up a
> hill.  Neither one ever let me down.  Either one could be repaired should
> it be damaged, but I suspect fixing the steel bike would be more expensive
> (the Calfee has no paint, so no repaint needed after mending).  Different
> horses for different courses.  There's room for both in the world.
>
> Now I'll put on my nomex and fix a bowl of popcorn.
>
> Bill
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:23:36 PM UTC-8, Scott G. wrote:
>>
>> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm
>> tires.
>> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike.
>>
>> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike.
>>
>> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy.
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

I hear that such breakages are common, *BUT!* How much of this is due to
poor design, and how much due to the material? I suspect that, if such
things were well designed for the material, they'd be plenty strong and --
I wonder? -- as light as aluminum?

Again, I'd like to see a comparison of the materials as suitable for bikes,
abstracting from stupid or otherwise inadequate design.

Certainly durability would be a very important criterion to compare.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> I don't know from carbon, but I don't trust it because of:
>
> 1.  *The strict torque requirements.* Two of my Giant Defy's composite
> seatposts longitudinally cracked with use over shorts periods of time -
> like one a year or something. The first one may have been my fault, I don't
> know, as I didn't know about torque specs at the start of my road biking,
> but I am not a ham fisted mechanic. The* second seat post* came to me
> under warranty and  I used a torque wrench. As time passed I discovered
> that this second one *still split*. I finally just got an aluminum one. I
> don't even know if they split due to tightening or some other factor.
>
> With my metal bikes and components I tighten to feel, but don't over do
> it. I usually snug in a smooth motion, and then give it one smooth
> tightening movement, stopping short of overdoing it. Never jerky. I don't
> tighten it 'til it smokes, either.
>
>
> 2. Also, the myriad stories of busted carbon, and how a little knick turns
> into an epic fail, and even time can lead to a catastrophic fail, *and
> the fact that inspecting the bike can't always tell you when something is
> failing* all lead me to look for an all metal bike for my next one. Giant
> didn't have any all alu bikes at the time. So I looked around online for
> all metal bikes and that's how I found Rivendell.
>
> I'm not saying anything is wrong with carbon. I just don't feel safe on
> it. And sure, steel can fail, too. But I feel safer on metal than on
> carbon. I like the lightness of carbon, though.
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks Zed; interesting, and this was almost 20 years ago; doubtless CF
technology has improved since.

I was amused to see "1,200 grams!" for the lightest frames. Aren't the
latest and greatest now well below 900 grams? Of course, such gram boasting
is (i expect) the real problem, since it pimps
"lightweightgofasterbelikethepros!!!" to sell new stuff. I expect that CF
is pretty darn good for bikes if used properly. "I expect."

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Zed Martinez 
wrote:

> Hmph. I could swear I saw something more recent, but all I can find in my
> history is this quite dated (though still interesting) article from
> Sheldon's site:
> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm
>
> And this white paper that doesn't do any comparisons but just talks about
> a lot of the factors that make it hard to just compare all carbon fiber
> equally (and along with that the different factors that can lead to CF
> failure more, or lead to it less):
> http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/technical-white-paper/
>
> I'd like to see anything more recent myself.
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this
>> just recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is
>> strong. Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test.
>> Even Grant has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the
>> CF one actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always
>> find it a bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score
>> it.) The thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to
>> advocate steel for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as
>> intended and not abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel
>> one. It's just they don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of
>> usual knocks, falls, and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once
>> there's been some damage, the failure mode tends to be sudden and
>> catastrophic rather than slow and visible. A good chance to take as a
>> performance-minded person for performance-minded uses, but at odds with
>> that core Rivendell belief of making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking
>> for the link on the strength and durability of the materials.
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate
>>> analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and
>>> steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames?
>>>
>>> For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this
>>> was 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon
>>> fiber one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing
>>> car cockpit tubs?
>>>
>>> Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both
>>> lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material,
>>> than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither?
>>>
>>> The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials
>>> so often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers
>>> to sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an
>>> intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof  wrote:
>>>
 *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly
 accepted constraints."*  - Charles Eames

 I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers.
 Carbon fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any
 plastic material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be
 reducing or eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing
 processes.  It continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1)
 the public was led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel
 would reveal the flaws in carbon.

>>>
>>> --
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
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>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>> *
>>> ***
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
>>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
>>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>>
>>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>>
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *
>>> Aristotle
>>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

Suu-*wt!*

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D.  wrote:

> just because...:p
>
> https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3
>
>>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Patrick Moore]

Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could be
worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent material
for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my riding, the
52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in weight and
(possible) improvement in strength.

I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories,
steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and
so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*"
history.)

*1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903.

Scott: do you own a Crumpton?

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G.  wrote:

> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm
> tires.
> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike.
>
> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike.
>
> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy.
>
>
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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Daniel D.]

I'd probably take it in to a qualified person to judge, same as I'd do with 
a steel bike I rammed into my house.  But then carbon isn't for me doesn't 
mean it's not right for someone else.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:22:45 PM UTC-8, Statrixbob wrote:
>
> But would you now ride that bike (with a new wheel of course) at speed?
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> Suu-*wt!*
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D. > > wrote:
>>
>>> just because...:p
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3
>>>

 -- 
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>>> .
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Robert Harrison
> Honolulu, HI
> rfhar...@gmail.com 
> statrix.com
> Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Robert F. Harrison]

But would you now ride that bike (with a new wheel of course) at speed?

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Suu-*wt!*
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D.  wrote:
>
>> just because...:p
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3
>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
> --
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>



-- 
Robert Harrison
Honolulu, HI
rfharri...@gmail.com
statrix.com
Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere

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