Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Nash Taylor]

Using a torque wrench would help.  May be over tightening.

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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Patrick Moore]

L O *L!*

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Peter Adler  wrote:

> Some of us would be grateful just to strip fasteners.
>
> I've ridden 50.4 5-pin French cranksets for a long time. For reasons
> related to backward compatibility to bits developed in the 1930s, those
> cranks/chainrings use 8mm fasteners, noticea smaller than the 10mm
> chainring bolts common since the rise of Campagnolo. For reasons related to
> limited materials access after WWII (and possibly French stubbornness),
> said teeny connectors were typically made of wussy soft steel. This is an
> unfortunate combination.
>
> I have a stash of TA/Stronglight/Nervar chainring bolts that I attempted
> to tighten to the point where the connection wouldn't wiggle, when POP! the
> head of the near-unobtainium hex bolt snapped off, leaving me with the
> stump of the bolt plugging the near-unobtainium sleeved nut. I've hung onto
> the nuts, in the wishful fantasy that someday I'll get a teeny-tiny
> easy-out and extract the stumps, leaving me with nuts in case I ever find
> replacement bolts. Yeah, right.
>
> VO sells substitute cyclotouriste bolts, but only for doubles. I harangued
> them for years to get them to sell triples (same bolt, same spacers, same
> nut with a longer sleeve), and they kept doing the VO classic "Well, maybe!
> We'll see if there's a demand!", which is their polite way of saying "get
> outta here, and stop bothering us with your fringy obsessions. We're not
> actually trying to make parts for cyclotouristes; we're trying to make
> parts that make you *look* like a cyclotouriste. Can't you see that
> cassettes+compact doubles is all we care about?". I haven't tried to
> harangue the new owners; maybe they'll be more interested.
>
> I've come to adopt the position of the great midcentury photographer Henri
> Cartier-Bresson: When tightening the teeny French chainring bolts, there is
> a *decisive moment*: the moment at which you've gotten the connector
> tight enough to perform its function but not yet tight enough to destroy
> the connector. Some days I feel that decisive moment, and other days I
> *don't*. I try to avoid messing with my chainrings on the *don't* days.
> And always root around in the bolt bins at the bike kitchen, looking for
> the ones that got tossed in because they're obviously too small to be
> useful for anything.
>
> Peter "if you love your weirdo chainring bolts, let them go. If they
> break, they were never really yours" Adler
> Berkeley, CA/USA
>
> PS for Patrick: It is equally well known that small children are resistant
> to use the "sh" sound, as it is a weapon frequently used for small-child
> oppression.
>
> "No, *you* be quiet, Daddy!"
>
> On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 3:41:31 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> O! Very well known!
>>
>> Patrick "torque it some more" Moore
>>
>> Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some
>> elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!".
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>
>>> Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit"
>>> zone when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you
>>> stripped it.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Peter Adler]

Some of us would be grateful just to strip fasteners.

I've ridden 50.4 5-pin French cranksets for a long time. For reasons 
related to backward compatibility to bits developed in the 1930s, those 
cranks/chainrings use 8mm fasteners, noticea smaller than the 10mm 
chainring bolts common since the rise of Campagnolo. For reasons related to 
limited materials access after WWII (and possibly French stubbornness), 
said teeny connectors were typically made of wussy soft steel. This is an 
unfortunate combination.

I have a stash of TA/Stronglight/Nervar chainring bolts that I attempted to 
tighten to the point where the connection wouldn't wiggle, when POP! the 
head of the near-unobtainium hex bolt snapped off, leaving me with the 
stump of the bolt plugging the near-unobtainium sleeved nut. I've hung onto 
the nuts, in the wishful fantasy that someday I'll get a teeny-tiny 
easy-out and extract the stumps, leaving me with nuts in case I ever find 
replacement bolts. Yeah, right.

VO sells substitute cyclotouriste bolts, but only for doubles. I harangued 
them for years to get them to sell triples (same bolt, same spacers, same 
nut with a longer sleeve), and they kept doing the VO classic "Well, maybe! 
We'll see if there's a demand!", which is their polite way of saying "get 
outta here, and stop bothering us with your fringy obsessions. We're not 
actually trying to make parts for cyclotouristes; we're trying to make 
parts that make you *look* like a cyclotouriste. Can't you see that 
cassettes+compact doubles is all we care about?". I haven't tried to 
harangue the new owners; maybe they'll be more interested.

I've come to adopt the position of the great midcentury photographer Henri 
Cartier-Bresson: When tightening the teeny French chainring bolts, there is 
a *decisive moment*: the moment at which you've gotten the connector tight 
enough to perform its function but not yet tight enough to destroy the 
connector. Some days I feel that decisive moment, and other days I *don't*. 
I try to avoid messing with my chainrings on the *don't* days. And always 
root around in the bolt bins at the bike kitchen, looking for the ones that 
got tossed in because they're obviously too small to be useful for anything.

Peter "if you love your weirdo chainring bolts, let them go. If they break, 
they were never really yours" Adler
Berkeley, CA/USA

PS for Patrick: It is equally well known that small children are resistant 
to use the "sh" sound, as it is a weapon frequently used for small-child 
oppression.

"No, *you* be quiet, Daddy!"

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 3:41:31 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> O! Very well known!
>
> Patrick "torque it some more" Moore
>
> Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some 
> elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!". 
>
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
>> Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" zone 
>> when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you stripped it.
>>
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Patrick Moore]

O! Very well known!

Patrick "torque it some more" Moore

Aside: recall one day my then 3 year old daughter frustrated by some
elementary task, saying earnestly to herself, oh SIT!".

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

> Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" zone
> when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you stripped it.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

['Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I figured this out when I broke off the bolt in one of my Ergon grips.  Now 
I have a Ritchey 5NM wrench that I use for everything around the handlebars 
and stem clamp.   

To the OP, I would also add it is VERY easy to strip a bolt if the bolt is 
soft metal and the hex wrench is hardened.  I had it happen on two out of 
four bolts on my crankset.  I felt like an idiot taking it to a mechanic 
but I'm sure they see stuff like that on a regular basis.  I also told them 
to trash those aluminum chainring bolts and get me some steel ones.  


On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 4:35:09 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque 
> proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit more 
> tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago incident, 
> where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- she had bought 
> a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the saddle to an efficient 
> height, and I said something amusing about being uptight and overtightening 
> bolts and nuts.
>
> Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, that 
> one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding this or 
> that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of bolt/nut 
> integrity.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/23/2017 05:35 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:


One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque 
proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit 
more tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago 
incident, where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- 
she had bought a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the 
saddle to an efficient height, and I said something amusing about 
being uptight and overtightening bolts and nuts.


Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, 
that one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding 
this or that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of 
bolt/nut integrity.





Another important step is going beyond that point into the "Oh Shit" 
zone when instead of getting tighter it just spins free because you 
stripped it.


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Re: [RBW] Re: mechanical question

[Patrick Moore]

One important principle that hasn't been mentioned so far is: torque
proportional to need. I am habitually someone who thinks, "Just a bit more
tight and you'll be safe" -- funny, I just recalled a long-ago incident,
where I met a pretty young woman by using a similar line -- she had bought
a bike at Canadian Tire and I helped her adjust the saddle to an efficient
height, and I said something amusing about being uptight and overtightening
bolts and nuts.

Anyway, getting your head to accept the reality that certain torques, that
one might at first feel inadequate, are fully capable of holding this or
that part in place, is an early step to wisdom in the field of bolt/nut
integrity.

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