[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Mike Mane]

Thank you for the advice, Frank. I haven't thought of it that way,  
that's very helpful.

—Mike Måne

Message sent by way of mobile device

On Aug 23, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Frank Pittelli  
 wrote:

>
> Mike Mane wrote:
>> I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the  
>> cheapest
>> (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage X  
>> volts to
>> power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require > volts? Is
>> there any way to reduce voltage like this without harming the  
>> circuit or
>> messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> The venerable "7805 Voltage Regulator" would be the weapon of  
> choice, as
> described here:
>
> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062599
>
> It also comes in other voltages, with "78XX" designations, where XX is
> the voltage.  They come in 1A and 3A packages and can be used with
> little or no external components (depends on how hard you are using
> them).  They are sold by the millions by every electronics supplier
> around the world.
>
> Hook up the input supply voltage (up to 35v) on Pin 1, Ground on Pin 2
> and draw your regulated voltage from Pin 3.
>
> NOTE: Even with a voltage regulator, it is *NOT* recommended that you
> power logic circuits or receivers from the same battery used for  
> motors
> drawing large currents.  The large current/voltage spikes and the  
> large
> amount of electrical noise generated by the motors can affect and/or
> destroy the logic circuits.  Whenever possible, especially in combat
> vehicles of any kind (tanks, boats, etc), you should use a separate
> battery to drive logic circuits and receivers. That also allows you to
> power up the electronics and test things without the main battery  
> supply
> turned on, an additional safety feature.  You would still use a  
> voltage
> regulator on the separate battery, allowing you to use any convenient
> battery voltage (not many 5v batteries to be found out there).
>
>Frank P.
>
> >

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Mike Mane wrote:
> I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the cheapest 
> (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage X volts to 
> power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require  there any way to reduce voltage like this without harming the circuit or 
> messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?

The venerable "7805 Voltage Regulator" would be the weapon of choice, as 
described here:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062599

It also comes in other voltages, with "78XX" designations, where XX is 
the voltage.  They come in 1A and 3A packages and can be used with 
little or no external components (depends on how hard you are using 
them).  They are sold by the millions by every electronics supplier 
around the world.

Hook up the input supply voltage (up to 35v) on Pin 1, Ground on Pin 2 
and draw your regulated voltage from Pin 3.

NOTE: Even with a voltage regulator, it is *NOT* recommended that you 
power logic circuits or receivers from the same battery used for motors 
drawing large currents.  The large current/voltage spikes and the large 
amount of electrical noise generated by the motors can affect and/or 
destroy the logic circuits.  Whenever possible, especially in combat 
vehicles of any kind (tanks, boats, etc), you should use a separate 
battery to drive logic circuits and receivers. That also allows you to 
power up the electronics and test things without the main battery supply 
turned on, an additional safety feature.  You would still use a voltage 
regulator on the separate battery, allowing you to use any convenient 
battery voltage (not many 5v batteries to be found out there).

Frank P.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

ok, armed with a DC SSR, hooked it all up via the one 12v battery
again (thinking positive) and h...@y, it all works perfectly!

totally l33t, thanks all for your help and advice, its assistance such
as this that makes this such a great place.

Now I have an RC controlled single-shot musket (first the shot, then
the powder...then pack it all down). Semi-automatic reload capability
next.

Ben

On Aug 23, 3:23 pm, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
> Heh, I was right then. Shows that it's always the simplest things that make
> the biggest problems.
>
> -Gregory
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Modena  wrote:
>
> > well I am officially an idiot. Looking a little closer, the SSR is AC
> > load. Some googling on "SSR not switching off" told me that if you try
> > to switch DC with an AC SSR this may happen.
>
> > 
>
> > will report back later
>
> > On Aug 23, 1:01 pm, Modena  wrote:
> > > no I am not sure, but the way I see it if the input voltage is zero to
> > > the SSR, the load pins should not make a circuit, but it seems once it
> > > does make a circuit, it stays that way
>
> > > Mike Mane: you can get voltage regulators, in  either kit form or pre-
> > > fab, I'm using one in T067 to drop 24v -> 12v, and then another one to
> > > drop 12v -> 6v. They are rated at certain max amps, heat being the
> > > issue.
>
> > > On Aug 23, 12:44 pm, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
>
> > > > Are you sure it's not the solenoid that's causing your problems?
>
> > > > -Gregory
>
> > > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Modena  wrote:
>
> > > > > I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a
> > 6v
> > > > > and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on
> > and
> > > > > stays on.
>
> > > > > basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
> > > > > the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
> > > > > to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
> > > > > battery.
>
> > > > > when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
> > > > > makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?
>
> > > > > driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
> > > > > blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
> > > > > 555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
> > > > > switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
> > > > > load circuit stays complete
>
> > > > > I'm confused
>
> > > > > On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> > > > > > I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the
> > > > > > cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's
> > voltage
> > > > > > X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that
> > require
> > > > > >  > harming
> > > > > > the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> > > > > > —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
>
> > > > > > Message sent by way of mobile device
>
> > > > > > On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin 
> > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror
> > > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power
> > > > > > > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also
> > > > > > > have 1600uf capacitors :)
>
> > > > > > > -Gregory
>
> > > > > > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
> > > > > frank.pitte...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > > > > > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > > > > > > controlled
> > > > > > > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> > > > > > > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected
> > MOSFETs"
> > > > > > > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and
> > that
> > > > > > > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
> >http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> > > > > > > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced
> > them
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > > > > > > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this
> > > > > > > question, I
> > > > > > > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages,
> > so
> > > > > > > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as
> > > > > > > well.
>
> > > > > > > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed
> > for
> > > > > > > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > > > > > > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used
> > with
> > > > > > > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > > > > > > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit
> > designs in
> > > > > > > the winter 

[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

Heh, I was right then. Shows that it's always the simplest things that make
the biggest problems.

-Gregory

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Modena  wrote:

>
> well I am officially an idiot. Looking a little closer, the SSR is AC
> load. Some googling on "SSR not switching off" told me that if you try
> to switch DC with an AC SSR this may happen.
>
> 
>
> will report back later
>
>
> On Aug 23, 1:01 pm, Modena  wrote:
> > no I am not sure, but the way I see it if the input voltage is zero to
> > the SSR, the load pins should not make a circuit, but it seems once it
> > does make a circuit, it stays that way
> >
> > Mike Mane: you can get voltage regulators, in  either kit form or pre-
> > fab, I'm using one in T067 to drop 24v -> 12v, and then another one to
> > drop 12v -> 6v. They are rated at certain max amps, heat being the
> > issue.
> >
> > On Aug 23, 12:44 pm, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Are you sure it's not the solenoid that's causing your problems?
> >
> > > -Gregory
> >
> > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Modena  wrote:
> >
> > > > I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a
> 6v
> > > > and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on
> and
> > > > stays on.
> >
> > > > basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
> > > > the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
> > > > to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
> > > > battery.
> >
> > > > when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
> > > > makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?
> >
> > > > driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
> > > > blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
> > > > 555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
> > > > switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
> > > > load circuit stays complete
> >
> > > > I'm confused
> >
> > > > On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> > > > > I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the
> > > > > cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's
> voltage
> > > > > X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that
> require
> > > > >  harming
> > > > > the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
> >
> > > > > —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
> >
> > > > > Message sent by way of mobile device
> >
> > > > > On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin 
> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Good call, just be careful around those caps
> >
> > > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror
> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power
> > > > > > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also
> > > > > > have 1600uf capacitors :)
> >
> > > > > > -Gregory
> >
> > > > > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
> > > > frank.pitte...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > wrote:
> >
> > > > > > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > > > > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > > > > > controlled
> > > > > > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
> >
> > > > > > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected
> MOSFETs"
> > > > > > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and
> that
> > > > > > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
> >
> > > > > >
> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
> >
> > > > > > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced
> them
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > > > > > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this
> > > > > > question, I
> > > > > > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages,
> so
> > > > > > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as
> > > > > > well.
> >
> > > > > > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed
> for
> > > > > > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > > > > > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used
> with
> > > > > > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > > > > > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit
> designs in
> > > > > > the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on
> > > > > > playing
> > > > > > with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap,
> durable,
> > > > > > easy to repair).
> >
> > > > > >Frank P.
> >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Donald Shankin
> > > > > > Computer Engineering Undergrad
> > > > > > Blue Marble Security Member
> > > > > > IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > > > NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > > > CAEL Partner
> > > > > > (507) 301-2499
> > > > > > dtsha...@mtu.edu
> > > > > >

[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

no I am not sure, but the way I see it if the input voltage is zero to
the SSR, the load pins should not make a circuit, but it seems once it
does make a circuit, it stays that way

Mike Mane: you can get voltage regulators, in  either kit form or pre-
fab, I'm using one in T067 to drop 24v -> 12v, and then another one to
drop 12v -> 6v. They are rated at certain max amps, heat being the
issue.



On Aug 23, 12:44 pm, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
> Are you sure it's not the solenoid that's causing your problems?
>
> -Gregory
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Modena  wrote:
>
> > I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a 6v
> > and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on and
> > stays on.
>
> > basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
> > the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
> > to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
> > battery.
>
> > when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
> > makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?
>
> > driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
> > blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
> > 555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
> > switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
> > load circuit stays complete
>
> > I'm confused
>
> > On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> > > I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the
> > > cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage
> > > X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require
> > >  > > the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> > > —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
>
> > > Message sent by way of mobile device
>
> > > On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin  wrote:
>
> > > > Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power
> > > > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also
> > > > have 1600uf capacitors :)
>
> > > > -Gregory
>
> > > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
> > frank.pitte...@gmail.com
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > > > controlled
> > > > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> > > > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> > > > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> > > > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
> > > >        http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> > > > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them
> > > > in
> > > > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > > > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this
> > > > question, I
> > > > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> > > > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as
> > > > well.
>
> > > > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> > > > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > > > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> > > > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > > > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> > > > the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on
> > > > playing
> > > > with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> > > > easy to repair).
>
> > > >        Frank P.
>
> > > > --
> > > > --
> > > > Donald Shankin
> > > > Computer Engineering Undergrad
> > > > Blue Marble Security Member
> > > > IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > CAEL Partner
> > > > (507) 301-2499
> > > > dtsha...@mtu.edu
> > > > dshan...@gmail.com
> > > > --
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

well I am officially an idiot. Looking a little closer, the SSR is AC
load. Some googling on "SSR not switching off" told me that if you try
to switch DC with an AC SSR this may happen.



will report back later


On Aug 23, 1:01 pm, Modena  wrote:
> no I am not sure, but the way I see it if the input voltage is zero to
> the SSR, the load pins should not make a circuit, but it seems once it
> does make a circuit, it stays that way
>
> Mike Mane: you can get voltage regulators, in  either kit form or pre-
> fab, I'm using one in T067 to drop 24v -> 12v, and then another one to
> drop 12v -> 6v. They are rated at certain max amps, heat being the
> issue.
>
> On Aug 23, 12:44 pm, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Are you sure it's not the solenoid that's causing your problems?
>
> > -Gregory
>
> > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Modena  wrote:
>
> > > I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a 6v
> > > and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on and
> > > stays on.
>
> > > basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
> > > the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
> > > to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
> > > battery.
>
> > > when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
> > > makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?
>
> > > driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
> > > blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
> > > 555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
> > > switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
> > > load circuit stays complete
>
> > > I'm confused
>
> > > On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> > > > I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the
> > > > cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage
> > > > X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require
> > > >  > > > the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> > > > —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
>
> > > > Message sent by way of mobile device
>
> > > > On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin  wrote:
>
> > > > > Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> > > > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror
> > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power
> > > > > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also
> > > > > have 1600uf capacitors :)
>
> > > > > -Gregory
>
> > > > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
> > > frank.pitte...@gmail.com
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > > > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > > > > controlled
> > > > > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> > > > > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> > > > > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> > > > > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
> > > > >        http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> > > > > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them
> > > > > in
> > > > > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > > > > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this
> > > > > question, I
> > > > > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> > > > > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as
> > > > > well.
>
> > > > > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> > > > > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > > > > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> > > > > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > > > > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> > > > > the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on
> > > > > playing
> > > > > with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> > > > > easy to repair).
>
> > > > >        Frank P.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > > --
> > > > > Donald Shankin
> > > > > Computer Engineering Undergrad
> > > > > Blue Marble Security Member
> > > > > IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > > NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > > > CAEL Partner
> > > > > (507) 301-2499
> > > > > dtsha...@mtu.edu
> > > > > dshan...@gmail.com
> > > > > --
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

You could try a voltage regulator, but I don't know how well they would work
with a high power circuit, you can generally get them in 5v variants.

-Gregory

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Mike Mane  wrote:

> I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the cheapest (or
> at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage X volts to power
> small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require  way to reduce voltage like this without harming the circuit or messing up
> the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
>
> Message sent by way of mobile device
>
> On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin  wrote:
>
> Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror < 
> sockles...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power supply,
>> they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also have 1600uf
>> capacitors :)
>>
>> -Gregory
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
>> frank.pitte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Don Shankin wrote:
>>> > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
>>> > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>>>
>>> Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
>>> that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
>>> protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>>>
>>> 
>>> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>>>
>>> The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them in
>>> tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
>>> soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this question, I
>>> see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
>>> I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as well.
>>>
>>> The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
>>> logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
>>> problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
>>> inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
>>> switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
>>> the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on playing
>>> with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
>>> easy to repair).
>>>
>>>Frank P.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Donald Shankin
> Computer Engineering Undergrad
> Blue Marble Security Member
> IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> CAEL Partner
> (507) 301-2499
> dtsha...@mtu.edu
> dshan...@gmail.com
> --
>
>
>
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

Are you sure it's not the solenoid that's causing your problems?

-Gregory

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:42 PM, Modena  wrote:

>
> I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a 6v
> and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on and
> stays on.
>
> basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
> the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
> to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
> battery.
>
> when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
> makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?
>
> driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
> blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
> 555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
> switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
> load circuit stays complete
>
> I'm confused
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> > I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the
> > cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage
> > X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require
> >  > the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
> >
> > —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
> >
> > Message sent by way of mobile device
> >
> > On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Good call, just be careful around those caps
> >
> > > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror
> > >  wrote:
> > > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power
> > > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also
> > > have 1600uf capacitors :)
> >
> > > -Gregory
> >
> > > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli <
> frank.pitte...@gmail.com
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > > controlled
> > > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
> >
> > > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> > > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> > > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
> >
> > >http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
> >
> > > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them
> > > in
> > > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this
> > > question, I
> > > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> > > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as
> > > well.
> >
> > > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> > > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> > > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> > > the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on
> > > playing
> > > with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> > > easy to repair).
> >
> > >Frank P.
> >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Donald Shankin
> > > Computer Engineering Undergrad
> > > Blue Marble Security Member
> > > IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> > > CAEL Partner
> > > (507) 301-2499
> > > dtsha...@mtu.edu
> > > dshan...@gmail.com
> > > --
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

I just tried seperating the PSU's, powering the logic and SSR off a 6v
and the solenoid totally seperate off 12v, same issue, switches on and
stays on.

basically the whole thing was connected to a 6v battery, one lead of
the solenoid went to + of a 12v battery, the other solenoid wire went
to a load pin on the SSR, the other load pin went to - on the 12v
battery.

when it stays on, the relay is NOT powered at the input, yet it still
makes a load circuit, WTF ? how can this happen?

driving an LED off the same terminals as the SSR input and the LED
blinks as expected for the time delay and then switches off, so the
555 seems to be doing its thing; press button, LED comes on, solenoid
switches on, time delay expires LED goes off, solenoid stays on, SSR
load circuit stays complete

I'm confused



On Aug 23, 11:51 am, Mike Mane  wrote:
> I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the  
> cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage  
> X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require  
>  the circuit or messing up the battery? Is resistance the answer?
>
> —Mike "not the electrician" Måne
>
> Message sent by way of mobile device
>
> On Aug 22, 2009, at 7:49 PM, Don Shankin  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror  
> >  wrote:
> > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power  
> > supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also  
> > have 1600uf capacitors :)
>
> > -Gregory
>
> > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli  > > wrote:
>
> > Don Shankin wrote:
> > > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-
> > controlled
> > > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> > Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> > that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> > protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
> >        http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> > The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them  
> > in
> > tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> > soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this  
> > question, I
> > see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> > I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as  
> > well.
>
> > The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> > logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> > problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> > inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> > switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> > the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on  
> > playing
> > with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> > easy to repair).
>
> >        Frank P.
>
> > --
> > --
> > Donald Shankin
> > Computer Engineering Undergrad
> > Blue Marble Security Member
> > IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> > NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> > CAEL Partner
> > (507) 301-2499
> > dtsha...@mtu.edu
> > dshan...@gmail.com
> > --
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Mike Mane]

I might as well ask an electrical question myself. What is the  
cheapest (or at least simplest) way to reduce the main tank's voltage  
X volts to power small, intricate IC's, etc on a circuit that require  
 wrote:

> Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror  
>  wrote:
> If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power  
> supply, they usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also  
> have 1600uf capacitors :)
>
> -Gregory
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli  > wrote:
>
> Don Shankin wrote:
> > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage- 
> controlled
> > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
>http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them  
> in
> tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this  
> question, I
> see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as  
> well.
>
> The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on  
> playing
> with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> easy to repair).
>
>Frank P.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> --
> Donald Shankin
> Computer Engineering Undergrad
> Blue Marble Security Member
> IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> CAEL Partner
> (507) 301-2499
> dtsha...@mtu.edu
> dshan...@gmail.com
> --
>
> >

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Don Shankin]

Good call, just be careful around those caps

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror wrote:

> If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power supply, they
> usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also have 1600uf capacitors
> :)
>
> -Gregory
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Don Shankin wrote:
>> > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
>> > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>>
>> Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
>> that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
>> protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>>
>>http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>>
>> The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them in
>> tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
>> soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this question, I
>> see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
>> I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as well.
>>
>> The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
>> logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
>> problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
>> inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
>> switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
>> the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on playing
>> with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
>> easy to repair).
>>
>>Frank P.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> >
>


-- 
--
Donald Shankin
Computer Engineering Undergrad
Blue Marble Security Member
IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
CAEL Partner
(507) 301-2499
dtsha...@mtu.edu
dshan...@gmail.com
--

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

thanks guys, I shall attempt to understand all of this

BTW I am powering the whole setup (including the 555) from the one 12v
supply


On Aug 23, 10:49 am, Don Shankin  wrote:
> Good call, just be careful around those caps
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Gregory Pwneror wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power supply, they
> > usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also have 1600uf capacitors
> > :)
>
> > -Gregory
>
> > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli 
> > wrote:
>
> >> Don Shankin wrote:
> >> > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
> >> > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> >> Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> >> that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> >> protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
> >>        http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> >> The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them in
> >> tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> >> soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this question, I
> >> see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> >> I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as well.
>
> >> The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> >> logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> >> problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> >> inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> >> switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> >> the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on playing
> >> with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> >> easy to repair).
>
> >>        Frank P.
>
> --
> --
> Donald Shankin
> Computer Engineering Undergrad
> Blue Marble Security Member
> IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> CAEL Partner
> (507) 301-2499
> dtsha...@mtu.edu
> dshan...@gmail.com
> --
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

If you need to find a MOSFET look inside an old computer power supply, they
usually have half a dozen of them inside. They also have 1600uf capacitors
:)

-Gregory

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 7:36 AM, Frank Pittelli wrote:

>
> Don Shankin wrote:
> > Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
> > transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).
>
> Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs"
> that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that
> protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:
>
>http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819
>
> The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them in
> tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and
> soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this question, I
> see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so
> I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as well.
>
> The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for
> logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load
> problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with
> inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for
> switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in
> the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on playing
> with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable,
> easy to repair).
>
>Frank P.
>
>
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Don Shankin wrote:
> Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled 
> transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).

Yes, there is a new breed of MOSFETs called "self-protected MOSFETs" 
that are specifically designed to be driven from logic levels and that 
protect against all kinds of problems.  For example, see:

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/parametrics.do?id=819

The last time I looked (about 6 months ago), they only produced them in 
tiny surface mount packages (which are too small for my eyes and 
soldering skills :-)  However, while googling to answer this question, I 
see that they are now producing them in good old TO-220 packages, so 
I'll have to see if my normal electronics suppliers stock them as well.

The nice thing about this new breed is that (a) they are designed for 
logic level inputs, (b) they protect the logic circuit from load 
problems and (c) they don't need suppression diodes when used with 
inductive loads.  Basically, they are a one package solution for 
switching 4-6A loads.   When I start noodling with circuit designs in 
the winter (the official season for circuit noodling) I plan on playing 
with them to see how well they work for my purposes (cheap, durable, 
easy to repair).

Frank P.


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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Modena wrote:
> Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
> of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
> after the SSR?

An SSR is functionally equivalent to an opto-isolator/relay circuit in 
that it can be controlled by logic level signals and drive isolated 
loads.  The advantage of the SSR is that it doesn't have any mechanical 
parts and it can be switched much faster than a mechanical relay 
(although SSRs also have a switching speed limit that vary from one 
model to another).  The disadvantage of the SSR is that it costs more 
(sometimes 10x or more) than an opto-isolator/relay solution.

When I need to switch loads on or off (no PWM), I use a 4N29 
opto-isolator to drive an appropriately sized relay. The 4N29 can sink 
about 150ma of current, which means it can handle all mini-relays 
(1-15A) and most automotive relays (20-80 amps).  Door-lock actuators, 
however, draw much more than 150ma when the motor stalls (which is why 
they can't be activated for too long as well), so you can't drive them 
directly from the 4N29 and you'll need to drive them from a relay (a 
little 10A mini-relay will suffice).

I've attached a schematic of how I use 4N29's to drive a relay coil.  I 
show a pushbutton on the schematic instead of the actual logic 
connection for illustration purposes.  (Clearly, if you wanted to 
mechanically activate a relay, you would simply add the pushbutton to 
the relay coil itself ... but that's another discussion.)

Basically, when switch SW1 is depressed (ie. your logic circuit goes 
HIGH), 5 volts is seen by Pin 1 of the opto-isolator (OPT1) which causes 
it's internal LED to light.  That triggers the transistor between Pins 4 
and 5 to allow current to flow to ground.  When the transistor is 
activated, current can flow from the 12v supply, through the coil, 
through the 4N29 to ground, thereby activating the relay coil.  When the 
relay coil is activated, current can flow from the 24v supply to the 
load on Pin 30 of the relay.

This is a very reliable circuit because of the following:

1) All three of the supply/ground circuits can be completely separate 
from each other, allowing you to use different logic, relay coil and 
load voltages.  That keeps the electrical noise (and failures) generated 
by each circuit isolated from the others.

2) Resistor R1 ensures that you don't (accidentally) pump too much 
current through the opto-isolator LED.

3) Resistors R2 and R3 keep the opto-isolator inputs and relay coil 
inputs shorted when SW1 is not pressed (floating input) and when 
powering up.  This prevents spurious activations of the relay.

4) Diode D1 suppresses the nasty little reverse voltage spike generated 
by the relay coil when it turns off (simultaneously proving that both 
Maxwell and Murphy were right).

Hope this helps get you activated.

Frank P.

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<>

[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Derek Engelhaupt]

It's conversations like this that make me want to remember all of that
electronic theory I learned for my job in the Army.  Since all that theory
was just theory in my job and not much use in the age of throw away
electronic boards, that knowledge is lng gone. ;)

Derek
T065

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Don Shankin  wrote:

> @ Modena:
>
> Also don't forget the appropriate resistors on the base and collector
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Don Shankin  wrote:
>
>> @ Frank:
>>
>> Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
>> transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).  They can be had with
>> an extremely low "on-resistance" which makes them ideal for very high
>> current applications, since they dissipate much less heat than an equiv. BJT
>> (if you can even find an equiv. BJT with the same current handling
>> capability).  Another useful feature is because they're voltage controlled,
>> you can wire many of them in parallel to essentially make one huge MOSFET
>> (this is how the open-source motor controller is able to handle several
>> hundred amps of current draw and still stay cool)  They certinally exist in
>> through-hole packaging.  You can check out Digikey, or Futurlec (where I get
>> all of my components from).  Here's a link:
>> http://futurlec.com/TransMosIRF.shtml  They can be a little pricey, but
>> they have pretty impressive characteristics.  LoL @ "new kids on the block"
>>
>> @ Modena:
>>
>> I'm guessing that your problem has to do with the fact that you're trying
>> to switch a 12v valve with a 555 timer that's running on 5v.  You should
>> place a small NPN transistor (like a PN or similar) between the 555 and
>> the valve.  Connect your 12v source the collector and your 555 output to the
>> base.  Connect the valve to the emitter.  Give that a try
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Modena  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> hrm, have I made an error of judgement in assuming that the SSR I
>>> bought is in fact opto-isolated?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 8:17 pm, Modena  wrote:
>>> > Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
>>> > of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
>>> > after the SSR?
>>> >
>>> > I tried today hooking up output to an automotive relay, which produced
>>> > weird results, no doubt because the relay could not switch fast
>>> > enough. Then I tried a 12v SSR, less weird, but it still stays "on" -
>>> > again, reverting to just the LED and all was well.
>>> >
>>> > On Aug 22, 2:09 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > > Modena wrote:
>>> > > > testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
>>> > > > actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something
>>> because
>>> > > > pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on
>>> indefinitely,
>>> > > > hence the valve stays open.
>>> >
>>> > > > anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?
>>> >
>>> > > You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic
>>> > > solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.
>>> >
>>> > > If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry
>>> trying
>>> > > to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are
>>> > > deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them
>>> working
>>> > > properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web,
>>> which
>>> > > tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect"
>>> > > transistor switching circuit.
>>> >
>>> > > The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a
>>> more
>>> > > official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic
>>> > > circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds
>>> of
>>> > > safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all
>>> those
>>> > > fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find
>>> one
>>> > > with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny
>>> little
>>> > > surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll
>>> use
>>> > > them for everything.
>>> >
>>> > > The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves
>>> an
>>> > > opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator
>>> (5v,
>>> > > very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v
>>> or
>>> > > 12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any
>>> > > load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired
>>> it
>>> > > a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching
>>> approaches.
>>> >
>>> > > Frank P.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Donald Shankin
>> Computer Engineering Undergrad
>> Blue Marble Security Member
>> IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
>> NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
>> CAEL Partner
>> (507) 301-2499
>> dtsha...@mtu.edu
>> dshan...@gmail.com
>> 

[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Don Shankin]

@ Modena:

Also don't forget the appropriate resistors on the base and collector

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Don Shankin  wrote:

> @ Frank:
>
> Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
> transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).  They can be had with
> an extremely low "on-resistance" which makes them ideal for very high
> current applications, since they dissipate much less heat than an equiv. BJT
> (if you can even find an equiv. BJT with the same current handling
> capability).  Another useful feature is because they're voltage controlled,
> you can wire many of them in parallel to essentially make one huge MOSFET
> (this is how the open-source motor controller is able to handle several
> hundred amps of current draw and still stay cool)  They certinally exist in
> through-hole packaging.  You can check out Digikey, or Futurlec (where I get
> all of my components from).  Here's a link:
> http://futurlec.com/TransMosIRF.shtml  They can be a little pricey, but
> they have pretty impressive characteristics.  LoL @ "new kids on the block"
>
> @ Modena:
>
> I'm guessing that your problem has to do with the fact that you're trying
> to switch a 12v valve with a 555 timer that's running on 5v.  You should
> place a small NPN transistor (like a PN or similar) between the 555 and
> the valve.  Connect your 12v source the collector and your 555 output to the
> base.  Connect the valve to the emitter.  Give that a try
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Modena  wrote:
>
>>
>> hrm, have I made an error of judgement in assuming that the SSR I
>> bought is in fact opto-isolated?
>>
>>
>> On Aug 22, 8:17 pm, Modena  wrote:
>> > Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
>> > of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
>> > after the SSR?
>> >
>> > I tried today hooking up output to an automotive relay, which produced
>> > weird results, no doubt because the relay could not switch fast
>> > enough. Then I tried a 12v SSR, less weird, but it still stays "on" -
>> > again, reverting to just the LED and all was well.
>> >
>> > On Aug 22, 2:09 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > Modena wrote:
>> > > > testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
>> > > > actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something
>> because
>> > > > pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on
>> indefinitely,
>> > > > hence the valve stays open.
>> >
>> > > > anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?
>> >
>> > > You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic
>> > > solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.
>> >
>> > > If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry
>> trying
>> > > to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are
>> > > deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them working
>> > > properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web,
>> which
>> > > tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect"
>> > > transistor switching circuit.
>> >
>> > > The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a
>> more
>> > > official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic
>> > > circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds of
>> > > safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all
>> those
>> > > fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find one
>> > > with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny
>> little
>> > > surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll
>> use
>> > > them for everything.
>> >
>> > > The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves
>> an
>> > > opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator
>> (5v,
>> > > very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v or
>> > > 12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any
>> > > load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired
>> it
>> > > a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching
>> approaches.
>> >
>> > > Frank P.
>> >>
>>
>
>
> --
> --
> Donald Shankin
> Computer Engineering Undergrad
> Blue Marble Security Member
> IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
> NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
> CAEL Partner
> (507) 301-2499
> dtsha...@mtu.edu
> dshan...@gmail.com
> --
>



-- 
--
Donald Shankin
Computer Engineering Undergrad
Blue Marble Security Member
IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
CAEL Partner
(507) 301-2499
dtsha...@mtu.edu
dshan...@gmail.com
--

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Don Shankin]

@ Frank:

Are you talking about MOSFETs?  They're essentially voltage-controlled
transistors (as opposed to being current controlled).  They can be had with
an extremely low "on-resistance" which makes them ideal for very high
current applications, since they dissipate much less heat than an equiv. BJT
(if you can even find an equiv. BJT with the same current handling
capability).  Another useful feature is because they're voltage controlled,
you can wire many of them in parallel to essentially make one huge MOSFET
(this is how the open-source motor controller is able to handle several
hundred amps of current draw and still stay cool)  They certinally exist in
through-hole packaging.  You can check out Digikey, or Futurlec (where I get
all of my components from).  Here's a link:
http://futurlec.com/TransMosIRF.shtml  They can be a little pricey, but they
have pretty impressive characteristics.  LoL @ "new kids on the block"

@ Modena:

I'm guessing that your problem has to do with the fact that you're trying to
switch a 12v valve with a 555 timer that's running on 5v.  You should place
a small NPN transistor (like a PN or similar) between the 555 and the
valve.  Connect your 12v source the collector and your 555 output to the
base.  Connect the valve to the emitter.  Give that a try

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 5:26 AM, Modena  wrote:

>
> hrm, have I made an error of judgement in assuming that the SSR I
> bought is in fact opto-isolated?
>
>
> On Aug 22, 8:17 pm, Modena  wrote:
> > Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
> > of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
> > after the SSR?
> >
> > I tried today hooking up output to an automotive relay, which produced
> > weird results, no doubt because the relay could not switch fast
> > enough. Then I tried a 12v SSR, less weird, but it still stays "on" -
> > again, reverting to just the LED and all was well.
> >
> > On Aug 22, 2:09 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Modena wrote:
> > > > testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
> > > > actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something
> because
> > > > pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
> > > > hence the valve stays open.
> >
> > > > anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?
> >
> > > You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic
> > > solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.
> >
> > > If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry trying
> > > to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are
> > > deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them working
> > > properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web,
> which
> > > tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect"
> > > transistor switching circuit.
> >
> > > The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a
> more
> > > official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic
> > > circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds of
> > > safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all
> those
> > > fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find one
> > > with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny
> little
> > > surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll use
> > > them for everything.
> >
> > > The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves
> an
> > > opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator
> (5v,
> > > very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v or
> > > 12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any
> > > load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired
> it
> > > a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching approaches.
> >
> > > Frank P.
> >
>


-- 
--
Donald Shankin
Computer Engineering Undergrad
Blue Marble Security Member
IEEE Vice Chair, MTU Chapter
NSBE Telecommunications Chair, MTU Chapter
CAEL Partner
(507) 301-2499
dtsha...@mtu.edu
dshan...@gmail.com
--

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

hrm, have I made an error of judgement in assuming that the SSR I
bought is in fact opto-isolated?


On Aug 22, 8:17 pm, Modena  wrote:
> Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
> of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
> after the SSR?
>
> I tried today hooking up output to an automotive relay, which produced
> weird results, no doubt because the relay could not switch fast
> enough. Then I tried a 12v SSR, less weird, but it still stays "on" -
> again, reverting to just the LED and all was well.
>
> On Aug 22, 2:09 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
>
>
>
> > Modena wrote:
> > > testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
> > > actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something because
> > > pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
> > > hence the valve stays open.
>
> > > anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?
>
> > You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic
> > solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.
>
> > If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry trying
> > to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are
> > deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them working
> > properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web, which
> > tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect"
> > transistor switching circuit.
>
> > The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a more
> > official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic
> > circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds of
> > safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all those
> > fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find one
> > with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny little
> > surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll use
> > them for everything.
>
> > The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves an
> > opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator (5v,
> > very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v or
> > 12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any
> > load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired it
> > a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching approaches.
>
> >         Frank P.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

Frank, so my basic understanding is that the opto-isolator you speak
of is an SSR, if this is the case why do I need another relay in-line
after the SSR?

I tried today hooking up output to an automotive relay, which produced
weird results, no doubt because the relay could not switch fast
enough. Then I tried a 12v SSR, less weird, but it still stays "on" -
again, reverting to just the LED and all was well.



On Aug 22, 2:09 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
> Modena wrote:
> > testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
> > actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something because
> > pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
> > hence the valve stays open.
>
> > anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?
>
> You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic
> solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.
>
> If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry trying
> to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are
> deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them working
> properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web, which
> tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect"
> transistor switching circuit.
>
> The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a more
> official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic
> circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds of
> safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all those
> fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find one
> with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny little
> surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll use
> them for everything.
>
> The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves an
> opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator (5v,
> very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v or
> 12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any
> load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired it
> a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching approaches.
>
>         Frank P.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Modena wrote:
> testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
> actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something because
> pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
> hence the valve stays open.
> 
> anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?

You need to isolate the load from the logic.  There are three basic 
solutions: transistor, logic-level FET or opto-isolator/relay.

If the load isn't too big and you like ruining lots of circuitry trying 
to make things reliable, a simple transistor can be used.  There are 
deceptive devices, however, and when you think you've got them working 
properly, they bite you.  There are dozens of circuits on the web, which 
tells you just how many people have tried to design the "perfect" 
transistor switching circuit.

The new kids on the block are logic-level FETs (I think they have a more 
official name) have been designed to be fool-proof, allowing logic 
circuits to directly drive a high current FET.  They have all kinds of 
safeguards built into them (designed to eliminate the need for all those 
fancy transistor circuits mentioned above), but I have yet to find one 
with good old-fashioned solder leads ... they all seem to be tiny little 
surface mount packages.  If you find one, let me know, because I'll use 
them for everything.

The approach that I've used the most (along with Dr. Sommer) involves an 
opto-isolator IC and a relay.  The logic triggers the opto-isolator (5v, 
very low current), the opto-isolator triggers the relay (usually 5v or 
12v, 100ma or so) and the relay triggers the load (any voltage, any 
load).  It sounds like a lot, but it's quite simple once you've wired it 
a couple times and it is one of the most reliable switching approaches.

Frank P.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[OdysseySlipways]

 
 
In a message dated 8/21/2009 10:55:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
b...@holnet.net writes:

ok well  they say nothing is ever easy...I have hit another problem;

testing the  circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
actual 12v valve, it  must be causing interference or something because
pressing fire and the  circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
hence the valve stays  open.

its either causing the circuit to continually re-trip, or  shorting it
somewhere causing a constant "on"

anyone have any ideas  how I might filter this?


what about the current draw? for a LED it's nothing, but a valve  might be 
too much, what about putting a relay in between and see how that  works?
 
Chris,
_Odyssey  Slipways_ (http://hometown.aol.com/odysseyslipways/index.html) 

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

ok well they say nothing is ever easy...I have hit another problem;

testing the circuit with an LED works fine, but when I hook up my
actual 12v valve, it must be causing interference or something because
pressing fire and the circuit switches on, and stays on indefinitely,
hence the valve stays open.

its either causing the circuit to continually re-trip, or shorting it
somewhere causing a constant "on"

anyone have any ideas how I might filter this?


On Aug 22, 11:11 am, Gregory Pwneror  wrote:
> Ahh, so simple, but so elegant. That should work rather well. The other
> option is to just use a couple of transistors and capacitors, but I don't
> know how well you could control the on time for. I would make one right now,
> but my electronics time right now is being taken up by making a synthesiser.
>
> -Gregory
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Modena  wrote:
>
> > are you building 10 tanks Chris?  :-)
>
> > On Aug 22, 9:13 am, "Chris. b"  wrote:
> > > ^great news! if you ever get this circuit into production I'll take
> > > 10! I would love a .5 second "open time" (valve that is) and a 5-10
> > > second load time for semi acurate reload times
>
> > > Chris. b
>
> > > On Aug 21, 10:08 pm, Modena  wrote:
>
> > > > I have progress!
>
> > > > Catching up on 30+ years of electronics evolution, I discovered that
> > > > the 555 timer chip can be wired in monostable mode, also called "one-
> > > > shot" mode. In this mode it can be activated by a momentary
> > > > pushbutton, upon which it activates an output pin, said pin stays high
> > > > for a time period derived by changing values of two components, a
> > > > capacitor (C) and a resistor (R), at expiration of time the pin goes
> > > > low again.
>
> > > > The timing delay is calculated with T(secs) = 1.1 x R x C
>
> > > > where R is resistor in ohms and C is capacitor in farads. Apparently
> > > > the 555 can reliably goes as low as 10 milliseconds for this timing
> > > > cycle, and as high as many many hours, and wiring multiple circuits of
> > > > this type in series can give you days and days, not that I need this,
> > > > but I thought it was cool anyway.
>
> > > > therefore a 22uf cap and a 10k resistor will give 1.1 x 1 x
> > > > 0.22 = 220 milliseconds
>
> > > > I have built such a circuit on a breadboard and am happy to say it
> > > > works.
>
> > > > I used a 22uf cap and a potentiometer resistor adjustable from 0 - 10k
> > > > ohms. I connected the output of the 555 to a 12v LED, and can see the
> > > > difference in length of flash when adjusting the pot, yay! This gives
> > > > me 0 - 220 (approx) milliseconds of adjustable "on" time. This
> > > > adjustability is critical with a homemade canon as different valves
> > > > are going to vary on air flow, and I don't have a marker-engineering
> > > > R&D department :)
>
> > > > When you push the button, the output goes high and the timing cycle
> > > > starts, milliseconds later (depending on where the pot is set) the led
> > > > switches off (output goes low again). It matters not if you release
> > > > the button before the end of the timing cycle or if you hold the
> > > > button in, it is a one-shot circuit, to "fire" again you must release
> > > > the button and then press it again.
>
> > > > To accomplish the second part of my requirement (delay to allow
> > > > reload) another similar circuit can easily be connected in series.
>
> > > > The one-shot circuit diagram is all over the net, but I used the below
> > > > one as a reference as it seemed to have more protection built in than
> > > > other examples I looked at:
>
> > > >http://www.circuitdb.com/circuits/id/107
> > > > (tis the one on the right, and I have my 10K pot in place of the 47K
> > > > resistor shown in the diagram)
>
> > > > here is a pic of the buggery box, not pretty even for a prototype but
> > > > it works like a champ :)
>
> > > >http://www.holnet.net/images/tank/20090821/555%20one%20shot%20timer%2.
> > ..
>
> > > > runs of 12vdc
>
> > > > In practice the output pin will switch a small solid state relay,
> > > > which will switch the air valve.
>
> > > > Canon firing-range data will determine if I guessed the right values
> > > > for my resistor and capacitor, but being adjustable up to 0.22 seconds
> > > > I think it will be ok and if not it can be easily changed.
>
> > > > Ben
> > > > Electronic-Battlefield Warfare Regiment - Southern Tankers
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

Ahh, so simple, but so elegant. That should work rather well. The other
option is to just use a couple of transistors and capacitors, but I don't
know how well you could control the on time for. I would make one right now,
but my electronics time right now is being taken up by making a synthesiser.

-Gregory

On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Modena  wrote:

>
> are you building 10 tanks Chris?  :-)
>
> On Aug 22, 9:13 am, "Chris. b"  wrote:
> > ^great news! if you ever get this circuit into production I'll take
> > 10! I would love a .5 second "open time" (valve that is) and a 5-10
> > second load time for semi acurate reload times
> >
> > Chris. b
> >
> > On Aug 21, 10:08 pm, Modena  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have progress!
> >
> > > Catching up on 30+ years of electronics evolution, I discovered that
> > > the 555 timer chip can be wired in monostable mode, also called "one-
> > > shot" mode. In this mode it can be activated by a momentary
> > > pushbutton, upon which it activates an output pin, said pin stays high
> > > for a time period derived by changing values of two components, a
> > > capacitor (C) and a resistor (R), at expiration of time the pin goes
> > > low again.
> >
> > > The timing delay is calculated with T(secs) = 1.1 x R x C
> >
> > > where R is resistor in ohms and C is capacitor in farads. Apparently
> > > the 555 can reliably goes as low as 10 milliseconds for this timing
> > > cycle, and as high as many many hours, and wiring multiple circuits of
> > > this type in series can give you days and days, not that I need this,
> > > but I thought it was cool anyway.
> >
> > > therefore a 22uf cap and a 10k resistor will give 1.1 x 1 x
> > > 0.22 = 220 milliseconds
> >
> > > I have built such a circuit on a breadboard and am happy to say it
> > > works.
> >
> > > I used a 22uf cap and a potentiometer resistor adjustable from 0 - 10k
> > > ohms. I connected the output of the 555 to a 12v LED, and can see the
> > > difference in length of flash when adjusting the pot, yay! This gives
> > > me 0 - 220 (approx) milliseconds of adjustable "on" time. This
> > > adjustability is critical with a homemade canon as different valves
> > > are going to vary on air flow, and I don't have a marker-engineering
> > > R&D department :)
> >
> > > When you push the button, the output goes high and the timing cycle
> > > starts, milliseconds later (depending on where the pot is set) the led
> > > switches off (output goes low again). It matters not if you release
> > > the button before the end of the timing cycle or if you hold the
> > > button in, it is a one-shot circuit, to "fire" again you must release
> > > the button and then press it again.
> >
> > > To accomplish the second part of my requirement (delay to allow
> > > reload) another similar circuit can easily be connected in series.
> >
> > > The one-shot circuit diagram is all over the net, but I used the below
> > > one as a reference as it seemed to have more protection built in than
> > > other examples I looked at:
> >
> > >http://www.circuitdb.com/circuits/id/107
> > > (tis the one on the right, and I have my 10K pot in place of the 47K
> > > resistor shown in the diagram)
> >
> > > here is a pic of the buggery box, not pretty even for a prototype but
> > > it works like a champ :)
> >
> > >http://www.holnet.net/images/tank/20090821/555%20one%20shot%20timer%2.
> ..
> >
> > > runs of 12vdc
> >
> > > In practice the output pin will switch a small solid state relay,
> > > which will switch the air valve.
> >
> > > Canon firing-range data will determine if I guessed the right values
> > > for my resistor and capacitor, but being adjustable up to 0.22 seconds
> > > I think it will be ok and if not it can be easily changed.
> >
> > > Ben
> > > Electronic-Battlefield Warfare Regiment - Southern Tankers
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Chris. b]

^great news! if you ever get this circuit into production I'll take
10! I would love a .5 second "open time" (valve that is) and a 5-10
second load time for semi acurate reload times

Chris. b

On Aug 21, 10:08 pm, Modena  wrote:
> I have progress!
>
> Catching up on 30+ years of electronics evolution, I discovered that
> the 555 timer chip can be wired in monostable mode, also called "one-
> shot" mode. In this mode it can be activated by a momentary
> pushbutton, upon which it activates an output pin, said pin stays high
> for a time period derived by changing values of two components, a
> capacitor (C) and a resistor (R), at expiration of time the pin goes
> low again.
>
> The timing delay is calculated with T(secs) = 1.1 x R x C
>
> where R is resistor in ohms and C is capacitor in farads. Apparently
> the 555 can reliably goes as low as 10 milliseconds for this timing
> cycle, and as high as many many hours, and wiring multiple circuits of
> this type in series can give you days and days, not that I need this,
> but I thought it was cool anyway.
>
> therefore a 22uf cap and a 10k resistor will give 1.1 x 1 x
> 0.22 = 220 milliseconds
>
> I have built such a circuit on a breadboard and am happy to say it
> works.
>
> I used a 22uf cap and a potentiometer resistor adjustable from 0 - 10k
> ohms. I connected the output of the 555 to a 12v LED, and can see the
> difference in length of flash when adjusting the pot, yay! This gives
> me 0 - 220 (approx) milliseconds of adjustable "on" time. This
> adjustability is critical with a homemade canon as different valves
> are going to vary on air flow, and I don't have a marker-engineering
> R&D department :)
>
> When you push the button, the output goes high and the timing cycle
> starts, milliseconds later (depending on where the pot is set) the led
> switches off (output goes low again). It matters not if you release
> the button before the end of the timing cycle or if you hold the
> button in, it is a one-shot circuit, to "fire" again you must release
> the button and then press it again.
>
> To accomplish the second part of my requirement (delay to allow
> reload) another similar circuit can easily be connected in series.
>
> The one-shot circuit diagram is all over the net, but I used the below
> one as a reference as it seemed to have more protection built in than
> other examples I looked at:
>
> http://www.circuitdb.com/circuits/id/107
> (tis the one on the right, and I have my 10K pot in place of the 47K
> resistor shown in the diagram)
>
> here is a pic of the buggery box, not pretty even for a prototype but
> it works like a champ :)
>
> http://www.holnet.net/images/tank/20090821/555%20one%20shot%20timer%2...
>
> runs of 12vdc
>
> In practice the output pin will switch a small solid state relay,
> which will switch the air valve.
>
> Canon firing-range data will determine if I guessed the right values
> for my resistor and capacitor, but being adjustable up to 0.22 seconds
> I think it will be ok and if not it can be easily changed.
>
> Ben
> Electronic-Battlefield Warfare Regiment - Southern Tankers
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

are you building 10 tanks Chris?  :-)

On Aug 22, 9:13 am, "Chris. b"  wrote:
> ^great news! if you ever get this circuit into production I'll take
> 10! I would love a .5 second "open time" (valve that is) and a 5-10
> second load time for semi acurate reload times
>
> Chris. b
>
> On Aug 21, 10:08 pm, Modena  wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have progress!
>
> > Catching up on 30+ years of electronics evolution, I discovered that
> > the 555 timer chip can be wired in monostable mode, also called "one-
> > shot" mode. In this mode it can be activated by a momentary
> > pushbutton, upon which it activates an output pin, said pin stays high
> > for a time period derived by changing values of two components, a
> > capacitor (C) and a resistor (R), at expiration of time the pin goes
> > low again.
>
> > The timing delay is calculated with T(secs) = 1.1 x R x C
>
> > where R is resistor in ohms and C is capacitor in farads. Apparently
> > the 555 can reliably goes as low as 10 milliseconds for this timing
> > cycle, and as high as many many hours, and wiring multiple circuits of
> > this type in series can give you days and days, not that I need this,
> > but I thought it was cool anyway.
>
> > therefore a 22uf cap and a 10k resistor will give 1.1 x 1 x
> > 0.22 = 220 milliseconds
>
> > I have built such a circuit on a breadboard and am happy to say it
> > works.
>
> > I used a 22uf cap and a potentiometer resistor adjustable from 0 - 10k
> > ohms. I connected the output of the 555 to a 12v LED, and can see the
> > difference in length of flash when adjusting the pot, yay! This gives
> > me 0 - 220 (approx) milliseconds of adjustable "on" time. This
> > adjustability is critical with a homemade canon as different valves
> > are going to vary on air flow, and I don't have a marker-engineering
> > R&D department :)
>
> > When you push the button, the output goes high and the timing cycle
> > starts, milliseconds later (depending on where the pot is set) the led
> > switches off (output goes low again). It matters not if you release
> > the button before the end of the timing cycle or if you hold the
> > button in, it is a one-shot circuit, to "fire" again you must release
> > the button and then press it again.
>
> > To accomplish the second part of my requirement (delay to allow
> > reload) another similar circuit can easily be connected in series.
>
> > The one-shot circuit diagram is all over the net, but I used the below
> > one as a reference as it seemed to have more protection built in than
> > other examples I looked at:
>
> >http://www.circuitdb.com/circuits/id/107
> > (tis the one on the right, and I have my 10K pot in place of the 47K
> > resistor shown in the diagram)
>
> > here is a pic of the buggery box, not pretty even for a prototype but
> > it works like a champ :)
>
> >http://www.holnet.net/images/tank/20090821/555%20one%20shot%20timer%2...
>
> > runs of 12vdc
>
> > In practice the output pin will switch a small solid state relay,
> > which will switch the air valve.
>
> > Canon firing-range data will determine if I guessed the right values
> > for my resistor and capacitor, but being adjustable up to 0.22 seconds
> > I think it will be ok and if not it can be easily changed.
>
> > Ben
> > Electronic-Battlefield Warfare Regiment - Southern Tankers
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

I have progress!

Catching up on 30+ years of electronics evolution, I discovered that
the 555 timer chip can be wired in monostable mode, also called "one-
shot" mode. In this mode it can be activated by a momentary
pushbutton, upon which it activates an output pin, said pin stays high
for a time period derived by changing values of two components, a
capacitor (C) and a resistor (R), at expiration of time the pin goes
low again.

The timing delay is calculated with T(secs) = 1.1 x R x C

where R is resistor in ohms and C is capacitor in farads. Apparently
the 555 can reliably goes as low as 10 milliseconds for this timing
cycle, and as high as many many hours, and wiring multiple circuits of
this type in series can give you days and days, not that I need this,
but I thought it was cool anyway.

therefore a 22uf cap and a 10k resistor will give 1.1 x 1 x
0.22 = 220 milliseconds

I have built such a circuit on a breadboard and am happy to say it
works.

I used a 22uf cap and a potentiometer resistor adjustable from 0 - 10k
ohms. I connected the output of the 555 to a 12v LED, and can see the
difference in length of flash when adjusting the pot, yay! This gives
me 0 - 220 (approx) milliseconds of adjustable "on" time. This
adjustability is critical with a homemade canon as different valves
are going to vary on air flow, and I don't have a marker-engineering
R&D department :)

When you push the button, the output goes high and the timing cycle
starts, milliseconds later (depending on where the pot is set) the led
switches off (output goes low again). It matters not if you release
the button before the end of the timing cycle or if you hold the
button in, it is a one-shot circuit, to "fire" again you must release
the button and then press it again.

To accomplish the second part of my requirement (delay to allow
reload) another similar circuit can easily be connected in series.

The one-shot circuit diagram is all over the net, but I used the below
one as a reference as it seemed to have more protection built in than
other examples I looked at:

http://www.circuitdb.com/circuits/id/107
(tis the one on the right, and I have my 10K pot in place of the 47K
resistor shown in the diagram)

here is a pic of the buggery box, not pretty even for a prototype but
it works like a champ :)

http://www.holnet.net/images/tank/20090821/555%20one%20shot%20timer%2001.JPG

runs of 12vdc

In practice the output pin will switch a small solid state relay,
which will switch the air valve.

Canon firing-range data will determine if I guessed the right values
for my resistor and capacitor, but being adjustable up to 0.22 seconds
I think it will be ok and if not it can be easily changed.

Ben
Electronic-Battlefield Warfare Regiment - Southern Tankers

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Sgt.A.Johnson]

ive been using sketchyphysics in google sketchup and have been looking
into moethods of controlling things mechanically because i cant code
ruby very well. Something i came up with is using sensors that set a
servos value to whatever and have an arm move through them. this arm
would set various servos to x amount in sequence. i bring this up
because ive seen mechanical speed controllers activating switches to
operate a motor. this is really not different to what i explained
above. so why not do the same. make a servo that completes a circuit.
the servo would be able to move pretty quick and with some playing
aboout you should get it so the servo moves to full, activates valve,
on its return closes the valve, and then is ready to fire again. would
sortof be adjustablle but it would be more hit and miss than a circuit
board. But in theory should work. anyone got any servos kicking around
to give it a shot. i reckon it might work. as i dont know how the
valve works i could be wrong so dont blame me if you waste some servos
trying

On Jul 11, 8:10 pm, Frank Pittelli  wrote:
> Chris Malton wrote:
> > OK then, so how many people are interested? And how many boards are we
> > looking at?  I might start a similar business to Frank and his C6Cs for
> > trigger systems.
>
> Good luck.
>
>         Frank P.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Chris Malton wrote:
> OK then, so how many people are interested? And how many boards are we 
> looking at?  I might start a similar business to Frank and his C6Cs for 
> trigger systems.

Good luck.

Frank P.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Mike Mangus]

I would go for 3.

Mike





From: Chris Malton 
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:33:17 PM
Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?


OK then, so how many people are interested? And how many boards are we 
looking at?  I might start a similar business to Frank and his C6Cs for 
trigger systems.

Chris Malton

Assets: FA006, T027

On 11/07/2009 01:13, Gregory Pwneror wrote:
> Use a PIC, PICaxe, BASIC stamp. or Arduino
>
> PICs (Programmable Integrated Circuit) are simply a programmable chip.
>
>
> Pros|Cons
> --+ 
> Cheap per chip | Have to buy/make a programmer board, which cost a bit.
> Very flexable| Can be hard to program and you have to buy software
> to do it.
>
> PICaxes are a PIC with special firmware pre-programmed into them so that
> minimal componants are required to program them. Generally you buy them
> as a kit, which comes with programming software, componants, a circuit
> board and a uplink cable.
>
>
> Pros | Cons
> ---+-
> Easy to program| Expensive
> Minimal componants needed to program  | Less memory for programs
> Kits come with all componants needed|
>
> BASIC stamps are like PICaxes, but you can'y get the single chips.
> Arduinos are like BASIC stamps, but are more powerful and harder to program.
>
> -Greg
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Chris. b  <mailto:barthelso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I am also after this sort of thing
>
> What I want is a setup that limits firing time (valve open) that is
> adjustable to suit.
> then limits rate of fire (im thinking 1-10 seconds per shot)
>
> so yes count me in for 4 if they can do this.
>
> Chris. b
>
> On Jul 9, 5:48 am, "Adams, Kevin"  <mailto:kad...@sheldon.k12.tx.us>> wrote:
>  > Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.
>   The problem is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a
> paintball at a respectable speed.  Often the small valve works a
> larger valve that also serves as the markers bolt and closes the
> breach before the paint is fired.
>http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.htmlcan walk you down just about
> every reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve
> designs and methods come out all the time but generally they are
> rehashes of old designs with the parts flipped around a bit.
>  >
>  > -Original Message-
>  > From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Modena
>  > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
>  > To: R/C Tank Combat
>  > Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?
>  >
>  > > A couple questions:
>  >
>  > > 1) When do you need it done?
>  >
>  > > 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>  >
>  > > Frank P.
>  >
>  > 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>  >
>  > 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
>  > it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
>  > milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
>  > manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds
> about
>  > right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
>  > seconds.
>  >
>  > For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
>  > trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
>  > adjustments.
>
>
>
> >




  
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Ben Holko]

I'll take a couple at least



On 11/07/09 5:33 PM, "Chris Malton"  wrote:

> 
> OK then, so how many people are interested? And how many boards are we
> looking at?  I might start a similar business to Frank and his C6Cs for
> trigger systems.
> 
> Chris Malton
> 
> Assets: FA006, T027
> 
> On 11/07/2009 01:13, Gregory Pwneror wrote:
>> Use a PIC, PICaxe, BASIC stamp. or Arduino
>> 
>> PICs (Programmable Integrated Circuit) are simply a programmable chip.
>> 
>> 
>> Pros|Cons
>> --+ 
>> Cheap per chip | Have to buy/make a programmer board, which cost a bit.
>> Very flexable| Can be hard to program and you have to buy software
>> to do it.
>> 
>> PICaxes are a PIC with special firmware pre-programmed into them so that
>> minimal componants are required to program them. Generally you buy them
>> as a kit, which comes with programming software, componants, a circuit
>> board and a uplink cable.
>> 
>> 
>> Pros | Cons
>> ---+-
>> 
>> Easy to program| Expensive
>> Minimal componants needed to program  | Less memory for programs
>> Kits come with all componants needed|
>> 
>> BASIC stamps are like PICaxes, but you can'y get the single chips.
>> Arduinos are like BASIC stamps, but are more powerful and harder to program.
>> 
>> -Greg
>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Chris. b > <mailto:barthelso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I am also after this sort of thing
>> 
>> What I want is a setup that limits firing time (valve open) that is
>> adjustable to suit.
>> then limits rate of fire (im thinking 1-10 seconds per shot)
>> 
>> so yes count me in for 4 if they can do this.
>> 
>> Chris. b
>> 
>> On Jul 9, 5:48 am, "Adams, Kevin" > <mailto:kad...@sheldon.k12.tx.us>> wrote:
>>> Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.
>>   The problem is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a
>> paintball at a respectable speed.  Often the small valve works a
>> larger valve that also serves as the markers bolt and closes the
>> breach before the paint is fired.
>> http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.htmlcan walk you down just about
>> every reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve
>> designs and methods come out all the time but generally they are
>> rehashes of old designs with the parts flipped around a bit.
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>
>> [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
>> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Modena
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
>>> To: R/C Tank Combat
>>> Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?
>>> 
>>>> A couple questions:
>>> 
>>>> 1) When do you need it done?
>>> 
>>>> 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>>> 
>>>> Frank P.
>>> 
>>> 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>>> 
>>> 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
>>> it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
>>> milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
>>> manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds
>> about
>>> right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
>>> seconds.
>>> 
>>> For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
>>> trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
>>> adjustments.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> > 


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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Chris Malton]

OK then, so how many people are interested? And how many boards are we 
looking at?  I might start a similar business to Frank and his C6Cs for 
trigger systems.

Chris Malton

Assets: FA006, T027

On 11/07/2009 01:13, Gregory Pwneror wrote:
> Use a PIC, PICaxe, BASIC stamp. or Arduino
>
> PICs (Programmable Integrated Circuit) are simply a programmable chip.
>
>
> Pros|Cons
> --+ 
> Cheap per chip | Have to buy/make a programmer board, which cost a bit.
> Very flexable| Can be hard to program and you have to buy software
> to do it.
>
> PICaxes are a PIC with special firmware pre-programmed into them so that
> minimal componants are required to program them. Generally you buy them
> as a kit, which comes with programming software, componants, a circuit
> board and a uplink cable.
>
>
> Pros | Cons
> ---+-
> Easy to program| Expensive
> Minimal componants needed to program  | Less memory for programs
> Kits come with all componants needed|
>
> BASIC stamps are like PICaxes, but you can'y get the single chips.
> Arduinos are like BASIC stamps, but are more powerful and harder to program.
>
> -Greg
> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Chris. b  <mailto:barthelso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> I am also after this sort of thing
>
> What I want is a setup that limits firing time (valve open) that is
> adjustable to suit.
> then limits rate of fire (im thinking 1-10 seconds per shot)
>
> so yes count me in for 4 if they can do this.
>
> Chris. b
>
> On Jul 9, 5:48 am, "Adams, Kevin"  <mailto:kad...@sheldon.k12.tx.us>> wrote:
>  > Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.
>   The problem is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a
> paintball at a respectable speed.  Often the small valve works a
> larger valve that also serves as the markers bolt and closes the
> breach before the paint is fired.
> http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.htmlcan walk you down just about
> every reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve
> designs and methods come out all the time but generally they are
> rehashes of old designs with the parts flipped around a bit.
>  >
>  > -Original Message-
>  > From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>
> [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Modena
>  > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
>  > To: R/C Tank Combat
>  > Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?
>  >
>  > > A couple questions:
>  >
>  > > 1) When do you need it done?
>  >
>  > > 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>  >
>  > > Frank P.
>  >
>  > 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>  >
>  > 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
>  > it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
>  > milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
>  > manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds
> about
>  > right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
>  > seconds.
>  >
>  > For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
>  > trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
>  > adjustments.
>
>
>
> >


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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Gregory Pwneror]

Use a PIC, PICaxe, BASIC stamp. or Arduino

PICs (Programmable Integrated Circuit) are simply a programmable chip.


Pros|Cons
--+ 
Cheap per chip | Have to buy/make a programmer board, which cost a bit.
Very flexable| Can be hard to program and you have to buy software to do
it.

PICaxes are a PIC with special firmware pre-programmed into them so that
minimal componants are required to program them. Generally you buy them as a
kit, which comes with programming software, componants, a circuit board and
a uplink cable.


Pros | Cons
---+-
Easy to program| Expensive
Minimal componants needed to program  | Less memory for programs
Kits come with all componants needed|

BASIC stamps are like PICaxes, but you can'y get the single chips. Arduinos
are like BASIC stamps, but are more powerful and harder to program.

-Greg
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Chris. b  wrote:

>
> I am also after this sort of thing
>
> What I want is a setup that limits firing time (valve open) that is
> adjustable to suit.
> then limits rate of fire (im thinking 1-10 seconds per shot)
>
> so yes count me in for 4 if they can do this.
>
> Chris. b
>
> On Jul 9, 5:48 am, "Adams, Kevin"  wrote:
> > Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.  The
> problem is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a paintball at a
> respectable speed.  Often the small valve works a larger valve that also
> serves as the markers bolt and closes the breach before the paint is fired.
>  http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.htmlcan walk you down just about every
> reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve designs and methods
> come out all the time but generally they are rehashes of old designs with
> the parts flipped around a bit.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> rctankcom...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Modena
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
> > To: R/C Tank Combat
> > Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?
> >
> > > A couple questions:
> >
> > > 1) When do you need it done?
> >
> > > 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
> >
> > > Frank P.
> >
> > 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
> >
> > 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
> > it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
> > milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
> > manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
> > right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
> > seconds.
> >
> > For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
> > trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
> > adjustments.
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Chris. b]

I am also after this sort of thing

What I want is a setup that limits firing time (valve open) that is
adjustable to suit.
then limits rate of fire (im thinking 1-10 seconds per shot)

so yes count me in for 4 if they can do this.

Chris. b

On Jul 9, 5:48 am, "Adams, Kevin"  wrote:
> Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.  The 
> problem is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a paintball at a 
> respectable speed.  Often the small valve works a larger valve that also 
> serves as the markers bolt and closes the breach before the paint is fired.  
> http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.htmlcan walk you down just about every 
> reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve designs and methods 
> come out all the time but generally they are rehashes of old designs with the 
> parts flipped around a bit.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcom...@googlegroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Modena
> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
> To: R/C Tank Combat
> Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?
>
> > A couple questions:
>
> > 1) When do you need it done?
>
> > 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>
> >         Frank P.
>
> 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>
> 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
> it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
> milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
> manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
> right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
> seconds.
>
> For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
> trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
> adjustments.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Adams, Kevin]

Some small pilot valves can switch fast enough for paintball use.  The problem 
is their flow rates are generally to low to fire a paintball at a respectable 
speed.  Often the small valve works a larger valve that also serves as the 
markers bolt and closes the breach before the paint is fired.  
http://www.zdspb.com/tech/index.html can walk you down just about every 
reasonable path to putting paint down range.  New valve designs and methods 
come out all the time but generally they are rehashes of old designs with the 
parts flipped around a bit.


-Original Message-
From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcom...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Modena
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:43 AM
To: R/C Tank Combat
Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?


> A couple questions:
>
> 1) When do you need it done?
>
> 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>
>         Frank P.

1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks

2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
seconds.

For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
adjustments.


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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Chris Malton]

I shall have a look into this.

It shouldn't be much effort to tweak my current code to do this.

A rough guess says maybe 3 weeks to get a prototype designed and built.

Can't promise this, as it relies on me getting some parts in, and it's 
really not worth the £5 shipping on £1 of goods, so next time I'm in the 
electronics shop I'll get the stuff I need.

Chris Malton

Assets: FA006, T027

On 08/07/2009 15:43, Modena wrote:
>
>> A couple questions:
>>
>> 1) When do you need it done?
>>
>> 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>>
>>  Frank P.
>
> 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>
> 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
> it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
> milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
> manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
> right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
> seconds.
>
> For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
> trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
> adjustments.
> >


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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

copperhead wrote:
> There is a company that makes RC switches for bb cannon used by model
> ship clubs like MWCI that may help. Different ammo but the triggering
> mechanism is similar - 1 shot per pull. http://www.teamdelta.com/

I don't think those circuits "pulse" the load for a fixed period of time 
like Modena wants to prevent the load from being active too long.  Nor 
do they prevent the load from firing again after a "wait" period.

To provide both "pulse" and "wait" capabilities, we can insert another 
circuit between the R/C receiver and a standard R/C switch (like those 
sold by TeamDelta and others) that changes the servo signal as desired. 
  Such a "control-side" approach allows the circuit to be used equally 
well with any servo-signal device, including servos, servo switches and 
even ESCs.  So, for example, you could use the circuit in conjunction 
with your servo/poppet configuration to ensure that the poppet is 
depressed by the servo for a certain period of time or to prevent the 
operator from firing too quickly in succession (a problem experienced by 
many battlers in a panic).

In addition to the servo signal filtering, I'll also throw in a simple 
pair of 5v signal lines that can be used to actuate a $10 commercially 
available dual relay board kit, thereby eliminating the need for the far 
more expensive dual relay switches sold by TeamDelta ($36+) and others. 
  Such an approach has been used on the battlefield in the Tiger, 
Navarone and now Brumbar with great success.  By far the cheapest and 
most reliable way to actuate loads up to 10amps.

Frank P.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Jason R Schafer]

You need a microcontroller (I think, maybe there is something simpler out
there).  Check out www.sparkfun.com for all sorts of neat electronic
components.  I am working with a Microchip microcontroller (PIC32) but don't
know much yet.  I have read and heard the Arduino is easier to start out on.

Jason

On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:56 AM, Modena  wrote:

>
> Good day all,
>
> I am going to be using a home-made canon, driven by c02 with a 12v
> solenoid valve designed for 1000psi air.
>
> Standard paintball tank and adjustable pressure regulator will be used
> to bring down pressure to around 200psi or whatever I find is required
> through testing.
>
> Fire control will be by actuating the GEAR switch on my aero-style TX,
> this switch will be replaced with a momentary push button. In effect
> you could think of this as an electronic marker built to be controlled
> by RC.
>
> So..
>
> what I need is an adjustable timing circuit, something that works like
> this:
>
> 1) press fire
> 2) custom circuit switches a relay which provides power to the 12v air
> valve, air valve opens, paintball shoots
> 3) custom circuit "un-switches" relay after X milliseconds (time
> adjustable via pot or similar) which removes power from valve which
> causes valve to close
> 4) custom circuit enters "delay" mode of Y milliseconds (adjustable
> again) to allow canon to re-chamber the next round
> 5) circuit is ready to fire again (as long as fire button was released
> between step 1 and step 5)
>
> I really want this to operate as above regardless of whether the fire
> button is "tapped" or held in.holding the fire button down must
> only operate the circuit once, so if you press and HOLD fire the
> circuit will stop at the end of step 4 above and will not be ready
> again until the fire button is released - otherwise it would be fully-
> automatic, cool, but not playing by the rules!
>
> I know about the picoswitch which can do the relay switching off an RC
> input for me, and this type of thing looks ideal for the timing logic,
> but the timings are in the wrong range:
> http://www.apogeekits.com/interval_timer_555.htm
>
> Can anyone assist here? I know stuff all about electronics, but it
> seems if we can get this nailed down then certainly other RCTankers in
> AU will have a need for this also.
>
> Ben
>
> >
>

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[copperhead]

There is a company that makes RC switches for bb cannon used by model
ship clubs like MWCI that may help. Different ammo but the triggering
mechanism is similar - 1 shot per pull. http://www.teamdelta.com/

I havent tried them because I like to use a poppet valve made by
Clippard called the MAV-3. I have a servo push down on it. At 10PSI,
it fires pretty fast. Just make sure the valve and servo ar emounted
solidly together. I use a bracked fashiones out of aluminum.

BTW: I should have my M3A1 ready by the end of the month.

- Martin

On Jul 8, 10:43 am, Modena  wrote:
> > A couple questions:
>
> > 1) When do you need it done?
>
> > 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>
> >         Frank P.
>
> 1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks
>
> 2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
> it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
> milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
> manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
> right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
> seconds.
>
> For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
> trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
> adjustments.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Modena]

> A couple questions:
>
> 1) When do you need it done?
>
> 2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?
>
>         Frank P.

1) anytime - I'm not ready for it yet, but will be in a few weeks

2) I am almost totally guessing here, but I think for X (dwell time)
it would need to be in the order 0.005 - 0.050 of a second (5 - 50
milliseconds). I have not been able to find a lot of info on
manufacturers dwell time, but from what I have found that sounds about
right. For Y (reload time) I would think adjustable between 0.5 - 5
seconds.

For X I have no idea if my valve can switch on and off that fast,
trial and error will have to sort that out, along with pressure
adjustments.
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Frank Pittelli]

Modena wrote:
> 1) press fire
> 2) custom circuit switches a relay which provides power to the 12v air
> valve, air valve opens, paintball shoots
> 3) custom circuit "un-switches" relay after X milliseconds (time
> adjustable via pot or similar) which removes power from valve which
> causes valve to close
> 4) custom circuit enters "delay" mode of Y milliseconds (adjustable
> again) to allow canon to re-chamber the next round
> 5) circuit is ready to fire again (as long as fire button was released
> between step 1 and step 5)

A couple questions:

1) When do you need it done?

2) What range for X and Y would you like to have?

Frank P.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[HV]

My quick take on a circuit using discrete components would be two "one-
shots" in series. A one-shot is basically a flip-flop that generates a
pulse of desired duration. The first one-shot generates a pulse of x+y
milliseconds. When it is triggered by the pushbutton it generates a
pulse, and no further pushbutton actions can affect it for x+y
milliseconds. The output of that one-shot then triggers another one-
shot that generates a pulse of x milliseconds to drive the relay for
the solenoid.

You have to ask yourself though, wouldn't it be better in the long run
to invest some time and a few extra bucks in a microcontroller, rather
than go through the trouble of building and testing a custom circuit.

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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Pete Curran]

If your circuit does what Ben has asked then I think you may be onto a good
thing and maybe think of manufacturing or licencing to as part of the C6C
project etc

My little comment will go back to lurking

Pete

-Original Message-
From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcom...@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of Chris Malton
Sent: Wednesday, 8 July 2009 16:54
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?


Ben,
I had the same issue here, only needing to trigger a battleswitch to

trigger a door lock actuator.  My solution is PIC based.  I had plans to 
share the diagram and code but never quite got round to it.

Do you want the circuit and code?

Chris Malton

Assets: FA006, T027

On 08/07/2009 06:56, Modena wrote:
>
> Good day all,
>
> I am going to be using a home-made canon, driven by c02 with a 12v
> solenoid valve designed for 1000psi air.
>
> Standard paintball tank and adjustable pressure regulator will be used
> to bring down pressure to around 200psi or whatever I find is required
> through testing.
>
> Fire control will be by actuating the GEAR switch on my aero-style TX,
> this switch will be replaced with a momentary push button. In effect
> you could think of this as an electronic marker built to be controlled
> by RC.
>
> So..
>
> what I need is an adjustable timing circuit, something that works like
> this:
>
> 1) press fire
> 2) custom circuit switches a relay which provides power to the 12v air
> valve, air valve opens, paintball shoots
> 3) custom circuit "un-switches" relay after X milliseconds (time
> adjustable via pot or similar) which removes power from valve which
> causes valve to close
> 4) custom circuit enters "delay" mode of Y milliseconds (adjustable
> again) to allow canon to re-chamber the next round
> 5) circuit is ready to fire again (as long as fire button was released
> between step 1 and step 5)
>
> I really want this to operate as above regardless of whether the fire
> button is "tapped" or held in.holding the fire button down must
> only operate the circuit once, so if you press and HOLD fire the
> circuit will stop at the end of step 4 above and will not be ready
> again until the fire button is released - otherwise it would be fully-
> automatic, cool, but not playing by the rules!
>
> I know about the picoswitch which can do the relay switching off an RC
> input for me, and this type of thing looks ideal for the timing logic,
> but the timings are in the wrong range:
> http://www.apogeekits.com/interval_timer_555.htm
>
> Can anyone assist here? I know stuff all about electronics, but it
> seems if we can get this nailed down then certainly other RCTankers in
> AU will have a need for this also.
>
> Ben
>
> >




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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Mike Mangus]

I've been wanting a circuit like this for my model warships.  Now that I'm 
moving into Treaty warship combat, a timer that gives a .5 second delay between 
firing would be nice.  Of course, it would have to do all the things Ben 
listed.  :)

Mike





From: Modena 
To: R/C Tank Combat 
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 2:56:46 PM
Subject: [TANKS] Timing circuit for canon firing - help?


Good day all,

I am going to be using a home-made canon, driven by c02 with a 12v
solenoid valve designed for 1000psi air.

Standard paintball tank and adjustable pressure regulator will be used
to bring down pressure to around 200psi or whatever I find is required
through testing.

Fire control will be by actuating the GEAR switch on my aero-style TX,
this switch will be replaced with a momentary push button. In effect
you could think of this as an electronic marker built to be controlled
by RC.

So..

what I need is an adjustable timing circuit, something that works like
this:

1) press fire
2) custom circuit switches a relay which provides power to the 12v air
valve, air valve opens, paintball shoots
3) custom circuit "un-switches" relay after X milliseconds (time
adjustable via pot or similar) which removes power from valve which
causes valve to close
4) custom circuit enters "delay" mode of Y milliseconds (adjustable
again) to allow canon to re-chamber the next round
5) circuit is ready to fire again (as long as fire button was released
between step 1 and step 5)

I really want this to operate as above regardless of whether the fire
button is "tapped" or held in.holding the fire button down must
only operate the circuit once, so if you press and HOLD fire the
circuit will stop at the end of step 4 above and will not be ready
again until the fire button is released - otherwise it would be fully-
automatic, cool, but not playing by the rules!

I know about the picoswitch which can do the relay switching off an RC
input for me, and this type of thing looks ideal for the timing logic,
but the timings are in the wrong range:
http://www.apogeekits.com/interval_timer_555.htm

Can anyone assist here? I know stuff all about electronics, but it
seems if we can get this nailed down then certainly other RCTankers in
AU will have a need for this also.

Ben



  
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[TANKS] Re: Timing circuit for canon firing - help?

[Chris Malton]

Ben,
I had the same issue here, only needing to trigger a battleswitch to 
trigger a door lock actuator.  My solution is PIC based.  I had plans to 
share the diagram and code but never quite got round to it.

Do you want the circuit and code?

Chris Malton

Assets: FA006, T027

On 08/07/2009 06:56, Modena wrote:
>
> Good day all,
>
> I am going to be using a home-made canon, driven by c02 with a 12v
> solenoid valve designed for 1000psi air.
>
> Standard paintball tank and adjustable pressure regulator will be used
> to bring down pressure to around 200psi or whatever I find is required
> through testing.
>
> Fire control will be by actuating the GEAR switch on my aero-style TX,
> this switch will be replaced with a momentary push button. In effect
> you could think of this as an electronic marker built to be controlled
> by RC.
>
> So..
>
> what I need is an adjustable timing circuit, something that works like
> this:
>
> 1) press fire
> 2) custom circuit switches a relay which provides power to the 12v air
> valve, air valve opens, paintball shoots
> 3) custom circuit "un-switches" relay after X milliseconds (time
> adjustable via pot or similar) which removes power from valve which
> causes valve to close
> 4) custom circuit enters "delay" mode of Y milliseconds (adjustable
> again) to allow canon to re-chamber the next round
> 5) circuit is ready to fire again (as long as fire button was released
> between step 1 and step 5)
>
> I really want this to operate as above regardless of whether the fire
> button is "tapped" or held in.holding the fire button down must
> only operate the circuit once, so if you press and HOLD fire the
> circuit will stop at the end of step 4 above and will not be ready
> again until the fire button is released - otherwise it would be fully-
> automatic, cool, but not playing by the rules!
>
> I know about the picoswitch which can do the relay switching off an RC
> input for me, and this type of thing looks ideal for the timing logic,
> but the timings are in the wrong range:
> http://www.apogeekits.com/interval_timer_555.htm
>
> Can anyone assist here? I know stuff all about electronics, but it
> seems if we can get this nailed down then certainly other RCTankers in
> AU will have a need for this also.
>
> Ben
>
> >


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