Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] Photocopy of a thesis in RDA?
J. McRee (Mac) Elrod posted:
It is a fiction that current print theses are manuscripts. They are
now usually printouts from the electronic version which is online at
the institution. Bit I don't think 264 2nd indicator 0 vs. 1 is
worth fighting over. (Coding state university press publications as
state documents IS worth fighting over, and I hope will not be a carry
over to Bibframe from MARC.)
Mac, I could not agree with you any more :)
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 6:36 PM, J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca wrote:
Mark asked:
Does the Degree Granting Institution produce the thesis? Or the
student?
The student might have been 264 3 earlier, but physically producing
it is not publication. While the student probably typed that 1948
thesis, it was not a thesis until accepted by the institution. The
official original copy probably exists in the institution's library
archives.
At client demand, we have been putting degree granting institution in
260$b for years. Their argument was they needed it in brief display.
We do 260/264 $c for serials for the same reason. Neither 502 nor 362
are often in brief display. It's good to have rules catch up with us
once again.
It is a fiction that current print theses are manuscripts. They are
now usually printouts from the electronic version which is online at
the institution. Bit I don't think 264 2nd indicator 0 vs. 1 is
worth fighting over. (Coding state university press publications as
state documents IS worth fighting over, and I hope will not be a carry
over to Bibframe from MARC.)
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
--
Zhonghong (Joan) Wang, Ph.D.
Cataloger -- CMC
Illinois Heartland Library System (Edwardsville Office)
6725 Goshen Road
Edwardsville, IL 62025
618.656.3216x409
618.656.9401Fax
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
I think it’s more to do with “political correctness” than universality. less surprising, then, that you end up with obscurity rather than clarity as a result!! ;-) Martin Kelleher Metadata Manager University of Liverpool From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: 05 July 2013 14:32 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.camailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
If circa is too Latinate--even though, to reiterate, it is a perfectly good English word--then why not just around (which is essentially what circa means)? Agatha, Saint, died around 250. Tilting at RDA windmills, Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Kelleher, Martin Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 10:36 AM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I think it's more to do with political correctness than universality. less surprising, then, that you end up with obscurity rather than clarity as a result!! ;-) Martin Kelleher Metadata Manager University of Liverpool From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Benjamin A Abrahamse Sent: 05 July 2013 14:32 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points I agree that the heading -approximately 250 borders on incoherence. died circa 250 is much less ambiguous. Do users really not know what ca. or circa means? It's in both Webster's and the OED. --Ben Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137 From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Gene Fieg Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 2:43 PM To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.camailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points And meanwhile the patron is wandering in the desert supplicating the deity for meaning. On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 11:25 AM, James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com wrote: On 04/07/2013 18:07, Elizabeth O'Keefe wrote: snip On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone else bothered by the display when only a death date is known? Smith, John, -1932 /snip I have experienced the same thing. I recently cataloged an item with the subject heading: Agatha, Saint, -approximately 250. I copied and pasted it unthinkingly but when I was editing my record, I couldn't understand what this meant, and it was only when I realized that the earlier heading was: Agatha, Saint, d. ca. 250 and the d. was changed to a hyphen, and the ca. was changed to approximately, did I understand what the heading was supposed to say. But that was only because I know the AACR2 heading. The new heading is incoherent. -- James Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.commailto:weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ First Thus Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/FirstThus Cooperative Cataloging Rules http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ Cataloging Matters Podcasts http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Gene Fieg Cataloger/Serials Librarian Claremont School of Theology gf...@cst.edumailto:gf...@cst.edu Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
We do have a separate field in the authority format to indicate uncertainty
about dates. RDA distinguishes between probable and approximate dates. EDTF
distinguishes between uncertain and approximate dates (
http://www.loc.gov/standards/datetime/pre-submission.html#uncertain ). EDTF
dates can be used in authority field 046, but we don't as yet have ways of
using those to generate access points.
I agree with those who say some access points produced by RDA as interpreted by
LC-PCC can be too long and unintelligible. We should take a clue from how
names and dates are presented for display in other contexts, such as museums.
It is common in some contexts to display dates within parentheses, but is there
any context where dates would be shown as just -1932?
--
John Hostage
Senior Continuing Resources Cataloger
Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services
Langdell Hall 194
Harvard Law School Library
Cambridge, MA 02138
host...@law.harvard.edu
+(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
+(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Elizabeth O'Keefe
[eoke...@themorgan.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2013 12:07
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
In the best of all possible worlds, lack of certainty about a piece of
information such as a birth or death date could be expressed in a
separate field, from which displays could be generated using whatever
terminology was preferred (ca., circa, approximately, ?). This
is more or less what CCO (Cataloging Cultural Objects) does. In the
environment we are working in, a question mark would be preferable to
approximately. The headings are way too long, especially if both the
birth and the death date are approximate, as often happens with
pre-modern names.
On a somewhat related issue (it was raised in Mac's post), is anyone
else bothered by the display when only a death date is known?
Smith, John, -1932
The hyphen looks like a typo (as if it should come after the date) or
like a minus sign; a user asked (jokingly, but ...), was this a B.C.
date? Prefixing a death date, when only that date is available, with
died would be a lot clearer.
Liz O'Keefe
Elizabeth O'Keefe
Director of Collection Information Systems
The Morgan Library Museum
225 Madison Avenue
New York, NY 10016-3405
TEL: 212 590-0380
FAX: 212-768-5680
NET: eoke...@themorgan.org
Visit CORSAIR, the Library’s comprehensive collections catalog:
http://corsair.themorgan.org
Lasater, Mary Charles mary.c.lasa...@vanderbilt.edu 7/4/2013
10:05 AM
Mac,
This seems like a suggestion that would serve two purposes... 1.
eliminate a very long access point ...
2. eliminate confusion about when to use 'approximately' vs. the
question mark.
I like this suggestion.
Mary Charles Lasater
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 11:58 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] approzimately in access points
Autocatters RDA-lers,
It was my assumption that we would have to follow LC/LAC authority
forms. But we are encountering opposition to approximately replacing
ca., and I agree. It makes an unsightly access point.
I'm suggesting we weplace ca. and approximately with a question
mark following the year before which either of these appear. (Perhaps
by the time linked data comes, RDA will have made that change, as they
replaced b. and d. with hyphens after or before the year.)
More than a score of things our clients have demanded have shown up in
rules since 1979. Our clients can't be the only ones who don't like
those cumbersome access points?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing http://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] approximately in access points
Benjamin said:
If circa is too Latinate--even though, to reiterate, it is a perfectly
good English word--then why not just around (which is essentially what
circa means)?
While it is true RDA tends toward using longer words where shorter
ones would be better *cf. some if those media phrases), I favour the
language neutrality of symbols.
A hyphens replacing b. or d. is fine with me, as as a question
mark replace ca. (or approximately). I've thought of no symbol to
replace fl., nor do I see the advantage of replacing it with a
longer word.
Locally we can usually avoid those long English phrases in 264 by
Google searching and educated guess work, but verbose authority
records are more difficult. Two approximately in one authority are
two too many IMNSHO.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] approximately in access points
J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca wrote: A hyphens replacing b. or d. is fine with me, as as a question mark replace ca. (or approximately). RDA's question mark is the same AACR2's. It's AACR2's ca. altering to RDA's approximately that evokes consternation. Or do you see collapsing the separate ? and ca. practices (and RDA equivalents) into a single somewhere around this date approach? -- Mark K. Ehlert Minitex http://www.minitex.umn.edu/
Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviating place of publication (was 264 question)
One thing we're regularly coming across in our copy cataloging is someone
changing transcription to postal codes. For example, we get many records from
Thorndike Press. It says Waterville, Maine on the item. DLC does a pre-pub with
the transcription and that's how it stays in their catalog. But by the time it
reaches us, and has alphabet soup in the 040, it's always Waterville, ME. Which
isn't even the version in the RDA Appendix, of course. I change them back
whenever allowed but is there a way to identify which library is doing that and
clarifying things?
Kristen Northrup
Head, Technical Services State Document Depository
North Dakota State Library
Bismarck, ND
701-328-4610
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 4:35 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 264 question
Dana said:
I feel that in this case it would be very helpful if there was another
example under Rule 2.8.2.6.2 with a state name spelled out
You transcribe in 264$a what is on the item, and more often than not, the
jurisdiction is abbreviated. If supplying in brackets, spell it out. NEVER
supply a postal code. (Some would accept abbreviations as used in access
points for cities.)
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviating place of publication (was 264 question)
Northrup, Kristen D. knorth...@nd.gov wrote: One thing we're regularly coming across in our copy cataloging is someone changing transcription to postal codes. For example, we get many records from Thorndike Press. It says Waterville, Maine on the item. DLC does a pre-pub with the transcription and that's how it stays in their catalog. But by the time it reaches us, and has alphabet soup in the 040, it's always Waterville, ME. Which isn't even the version in the RDA Appendix, of course. I change them back whenever allowed but is there a way to identify which library is doing that and clarifying things? OCLC might be able to pin down the who if you're using their database. There's no equivalent to Show... LC Superseded Versions command for bib records in WorldCat, unfortunately. -- Mark K. Ehlert Minitex http://www.minitex.umn.edu/
Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviating place of publication (was 264 question)
I would contact OCLC Quality Control and let them know and ask them to
contact the offending library.
^^
Adam L. Schiff
Principal Cataloger
University of Washington Libraries
Box 352900
Seattle, WA 98195-2900
(206) 543-8409
(206) 685-8782 fax
asch...@u.washington.edu
http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff
~~
On Fri, 5 Jul 2013, Northrup, Kristen D. wrote:
One thing we're regularly coming across in our copy cataloging is someone
changing transcription to postal codes. For example, we get many records from
Thorndike Press. It says Waterville, Maine on the item. DLC does a pre-pub with
the transcription and that's how it stays in their catalog. But by the time it
reaches us, and has alphabet soup in the 040, it's always Waterville, ME. Which
isn't even the version in the RDA Appendix, of course. I change them back
whenever allowed but is there a way to identify which library is doing that and
clarifying things?
Kristen Northrup
Head, Technical Services State Document Depository
North Dakota State Library
Bismarck, ND
701-328-4610
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2013 4:35 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] 264 question
Dana said:
I feel that in this case it would be very helpful if there was another
example under Rule 2.8.2.6.2 with a state name spelled out
You transcribe in 264$a what is on the item, and more often than not, the
jurisdiction is abbreviated. If supplying in brackets, spell it out. NEVER
supply a postal code. (Some would accept abbreviations as used in access
points for cities.)
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
