[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I have hit this one a couple of times but not with the equipment you are listing. It turned out to be how the sine wave crossed the X axis and the controls did not like the wave form. Thanks - Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 11:16 AM To: RE Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I second Dana's response. I have observed that the MS4448 waveform quality degenerates quite rapidly with imbalanced loading of one or the other of the 120 volt output legs. I can't give a quantitative (% distortion/amps) number to it, but I would classify it as severe. I first noticed it when doing some test measurements in the shop, and found large discrepancies between various current metering devices I was using, as some of the meters were not measuring RMS, and the distortion was throwing them way off. And when using 120 volt motors, even though their surge may be well within specified load limits, count on things not going well. I'm generally satisfied with the Magnum MS4448, but this is one the two key shortcomings that I see with the product. The other is the idle power draw when not in search. John Raynes RE Solar Torrey, UT At 11:16 AM 2/9/2009, you wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.comallan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT remote display issues
I have a customed with a Xantrex gt inverter and the remote wired display he has repetetive problems of the display losing or dumping the Monthly and Yearly history. It will go random lengths of time between losing this data sometimes 2 months sometime 1 month it varys. the remote was replaced once for this problem and the inverter has been replaced for a failure to wake up. Any thoughts before i wait on hold with Xantrex?___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT remote display issues
I had this same issue about 2 years ago in CA. Xantrex replaced the inverter. On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 12:55 PM, r...@solar4maine.com wrote: I have a customed with a Xantrex gt inverter and the remote wired display he has repetetive problems of the display losing or dumping the Monthly and Yearly history. It will go random lengths of time between losing this data sometimes 2 months sometime 1 month it varys. the remote was replaced once for this problem and the inverter has been replaced for a failure to wake up. Any thoughts before i wait on hold with Xantrex? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jason Lombard Open Hand Solar LLC. Certified Sustainable Building Adviser www.openhandsolar.com 505 795 8646 I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. —Thomas Edison ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] St Croix
Any random brown spots on the trace lines intersections? [on the back encapsulate] Thanks - Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc www.solarwork.com E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March 1931 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lombard Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:37 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interesting question This is from an installer in St Croix about and issue he had. Any thoughts? I have a client w/ an older solar array. They are at least as old as 1991, and I installed 1 new panel and new SW4048 and L-16 bats in Jan 2000. The 24 modules are Solarex SX 110 but they have a 2.1 Isc and they measure 17.5 x 42 each I believe they are @ 35W each. They are wired 4 modules in series , 6panels@ 48V nom. w/ 2 panels parallel in J box on roof w/no fuse, or diode. 3 pos power leads go down to SQ D fused Disconnect (3, 10A FLNR fuses). After opening PV disconnect at array site, and measuring Voc on each input terminal (@ 75Voc each) I measured Isc . I got 3.9 on West, 1.9 in middle, and 3.9 on east. After I had finished w/this measure, I Heard a loud pop, and when we inspected array found 1 panel w/cracked glass and an electrical blow out on underneath on back sheet of module. This was the East panel, and measuring Isc on all again, got 3.9 West, 1.9 Mid, and 1.9 Isc East. I did not wire the array, though I did rewire the j box w.new busses. Interestingly, each 48 V panel has 2 Pos wires, each measuring 75 Voc .; i.e. each output circuit (to 10A fuse) has 4 Pos wires coming into it. Though I did not confirm w/isc test, I imagine that 2 wires were used for Pos on each 48 V panel. There are also a total of 4 -ve wires for ea panel as well, all -ve on 1 buss. All panels were in direct sun when this blowout event occurred. Also, all modules had severe darkening of cells. Care to comment on this, what happened and why? -- Jason Lombard Open Hand Solar LLC. Certified Sustainable Building Adviser www.openhandsolar.com 505 795 8646 I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. -Thomas Edison ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Point of connection
Hello With the growth of the solar industry coupled with the generous incentives now offered on fed part of the equation, we are seeing some trends here and wondering what the approach has been in other areas. What kind of feedback are you receiving from the AHJ? There are some integrators who now are installing systems meaning, multiple small inverters that are married to smaller arrays as opposed to one large array with one large inverter. So, it is quite conceivable to have, for example, 3- 3000 W SMA inverters on a customers home. So, the point of connection issues arise. When you look at 690.64B, it speaks to the 120% of the busbar rating. What are folks doing in other areas, for this above example to address the mechanical/electrical challenges associated with this situation, when if you had 1- 200 amp residential service? There is alot of discussion, like installing a 125 amp rated subpanel; interuppting the feeder from the electric service and installing a 225 amp panel with a higher rated buss (hard to find or custom made thru Cutler Hammer or others) etc. We can also see a trend using the enphase products as well, but not as much pronounced. It could be conceivable for a client to want to build their system up over a few years and have 15, 175 watt panels on a circuit (2P15 amp) and grow the system up to lets say, 45, 175 watt panels (3-2P15 amp). Same situation, different inverter manufacturer. My sense is this trend will continue for the forseeable future, and alot of wrenches will find orphaned systems out there and we should look at ways to address point of connection issues that are bound to present themselves. Thanks Keith ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] On demand Electric with pre heated water
Hi Wrenches, Have any of you experience with on demand electric water heaters? I have a large space heating system I'm putting in a cramped utility room, and the on demand water heater might be the only option. family of 4, 3 bath house. marathon 105 gal solar storage tank. I'm looking for any information or suggestions on which if any electric on demand heater will manage pre heated water. The other option is to use a marathon 40 gal backup and use a variable speed well pump, and therefore a tiny pressure tank. (#15) that'd be my preferred, but I want to give the customer options. thanks in advance, karl -- Karl Schwingel NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer NorthWind Renewable Energy LLC PO Box 723 Stevens Point, WI 54481 k...@northwindre.com Cell: 715 209 0446 Fax : 715 952 4501 This e-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above, and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not a named recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand Electric with pre heated water
Hi karl We are trying a HeatPump heater as backup for a solar hotwater system. Trying to get away from propane. http://www.airgenerate.com/products/specs.html http://www.toolbase.org/TechInventory/TechManufacturers.aspx?ContentDetailID=862 Time will tell it it works. Logan Hi Wrenches, Have any of you experience with on demand electric water heaters? I have a large space heating system I'm putting in a cramped utility room, and the on demand water heater might be the only option. family of 4, 3 bath house. marathon 105 gal solar storage tank. I'm looking for any information or suggestions on which if any electric on demand heater will manage pre heated water. The other option is to use a marathon 40 gal backup and use a variable speed well pump, and therefore a tiny pressure tank. (#15) that'd be my preferred, but I want to give the customer options. thanks in advance, karl -- Karl Schwingel NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer NorthWind Renewable Energy LLC PO Box 723 Stevens Point, WI 54481 k...@northwindre.com Cell: 715 209 0446 Fax : 715 952 4501 This e-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above, and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not a named recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay activated by the original board and fed by the inverter direct? I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the generator, not Magnums but old Hearts. Bob On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar ***allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand Electric with pre heated water
On 2/9/09 12:24 PM, Karl Schwingel wrote: Have any of you experience with on demand electric water heaters? At the recommendation of someone on this list a few years back, we purchased a Stiebel-Eltron Tempra 36 for a project. It seems quite happy with preheated water and is nicely engineered. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Heat pump water heaters (was: On demand Electric with pre heated water)
On 2/9/09 3:36 PM, wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com wrote: We are trying a HeatPump heater as backup for a solar hotwater system. Trying to get away from propane. http://www.airgenerate.com/products/specs.html If that 7,000 BTU/hr rating is correct, it equates to 2kW of resistance heat, which is typical of under the sink bathroom applications in restaurants and gas stations. Might work as makeup heat if you have a large enough tank. The Stiebel-Eltron unit we used draws 36 kW (!) The COP of compressor-driven heat pumps drops as output temperature increases (which is why they make such a nice pairing with radiant floor heat.) Even at the lower COP that a 120-140F hot side produces, it would be a huge win in the southwest deserts if it pulled that heat from the interior air. Remember that in the winter, you are stealing heat from the house to heat that water. If you put the evaporater outside like Solahart does, you are then pulling heat from the outside in winter, which is harder work. Ideally, you'd want a vented box that could use either inside or outside air depending on the season. Better yet, find a source of waste heat like refrigeration or dehydration. We are working on a commercial project where we will recover heat from the kitchen refrigeration systems (12-14 compressors overall) to heat domestic water. I'd love to see this applied on a residential scale. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Have you tried a different SW inverter at the site? There is a difference between brands. Also, have you tried a clean wave form gennie like the Honda inverter series. Finally I don't think that most manufacturers will guarantee that their wave form will power a specific load. Regards, Ezra Auerbach On 9-Feb-09, at 4:18 PM, robert ellison reelli...@gmail.com wrote: I wonder if a work around might be to run the igniter off a relay activated by the original board and fed by the inverter direct? I have seen things not start when the charger was drawing off the generator, not Magnums but old Hearts. Bob On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot- surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Cost per kW of a 2 mega watt installation
Can anyone out there give me this info or have a site that I can get these figures. How about the area required for a project of this size? Thanks in advance. Tump Sent via BlackBerry by ATT ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Point of connection
Keith: No matter how you slice it, every breaker panel and every conductor in the feeder from the inverter to the meter must meet the 120% rule. You can not dedicate one panel as an AC Combiner and exceed the 120% rating on that panel only. It does not matter if the source is one inverter or 10 inverters. You either meet the 120% requirement from section (B) or you supply a supply side tap as allowed in (A). William Miller At 02:40 PM 2/9/2009, you wrote: Hello With the growth of the solar industry coupled with the generous incentives now offered on fed part of the equation, we are seeing some trends here and wondering what the approach has been in other areas. What kind of feedback are you receiving from the AHJ? There are some integrators who now are installing systems meaning, multiple small inverters that are married to smaller arrays as opposed to one large array with one large inverter. So, it is quite conceivable to have, for example, 3- 3000 W SMA inverters on a customers home. So, the point of connection issues arise. When you look at 690.64B, it speaks to the 120% of the busbar rating. What are folks doing in other areas, for this above example to address the mechanical/electrical challenges associated with this situation, when if you had 1- 200 amp residential service? There is alot of discussion, like installing a 125 amp rated subpanel; interuppting the feeder from the electric service and installing a 225 amp panel with a higher rated buss (hard to find or custom made thru Cutler Hammer or others) etc. We can also see a trend using the enphase products as well, but not as much pronounced. It could be conceivable for a client to want to build their system up over a few years and have 15, 175 watt panels on a circuit (2P15 amp) and grow the system up to lets say, 45, 175 watt panels (3-2P15 amp). Same situation, different inverter manufacturer. My sense is this trend will continue for the forseeable future, and alot of wrenches will find orphaned systems out there and we should look at ways to address point of connection issues that are bound to present themselves. Thanks Keith Please note new e-mail address and domain: William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David David Katz President AEE Solar 1155 Redway Drive P.O. Box 339 Redway, CA 95560 Tel (707) 825-1200 Fax (707) 825-1202 da...@aeesolar.com mailto:da...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com DISCLAIMER: This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different manufacturer's boiler might work. The Lochinvar boiler, which uses a different control and a spark ignition rather than a hot surface igniter, worked on site without any problems. I'm looking for solutions. Magnum tech support had not heard of this. Have you? Also, if indeed we have an inverter that is incapable of running this load, how do we make it right to the homeowner and the mechanical contractor? What should be Magnum's obligation? What should be ours? This issue hasn't come up here since the days when the Trace SW mod-sine series was the waveform standard. Thanks, Allan Sindelar allan_(at)_positiveenergysolar.com mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP certified solar PV installer Positive Energy, Inc. 3225A Richards Lane Santa Fe NM 87507 505 424-1112 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
