Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex GT wired monitor
Hi Ryan, Is the cat 5 cable in the same conduit or really close to the AC lines? I have seen other remotes (Trace) in the same conduit that would scramble, one would do it in a day or so after power was applied. I did not do that install but figured out what i thought was happening and have avoided that situation.. The owner never did correct it as he would have had to rip up the driveway to cure it. Bob On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 5:55 PM, ryan r...@solar4maine.com wrote: Wrenches i have a unique problem. I have a 2.5kw grid tied system installed using a Xantrex GT inverter I also have the wired monitor that uses the standard Cat5 cable. The problem is the Remote meter dumps its data randomly sometimes once a month and sometimes it will go 3 months. We have changed the Inverter, The remote and the Cat5 cable. I am stumped I have made sure there is no dc lines any where near by. the only thing remotely close is a cordless phone but it is 16 inches away at least. Any ideas? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Ron Young To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Raintight top entrance of Carlon box
William and Wrenches, To go into the top of a Carlon outdoor enclosure, box connectors are available. The Carlon part numbers are E996D for a 1/2 connector. The numbers for other sizes are E996E for 3/4, E996F for 1, etc. These are glue in connectors with a NEMA TC - 3 approval. http://www.edwardssupply.com/product.php?productid=63777cat=1530page=18 Since the tops of Carlon enclosures are beveled, it might be necessary to heat the pipe to make it bend into the box without strain. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-| I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with reference to PV: POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Ron Young To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Ron, Here is a definition for Power Factor that we used in our String Inverter guide in SP1.1: POWER FACTOR AT RATED OUTPUT Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power in the inverter ac output circuit at its rated power. Importance: True power is measured in units of watts and describes the ability to do useful work. Apparent power includes both work-producing power and reactive power measured in volt-amperes. Power factor is a comparison of watts to volt-amperes or real power to apparent power in an ac circuit. If the power factor in a circuit is 1.0, then all of the power generated is available to do useful work. The point is that you can describe the power factor for an inverterit approaches unity (see the Table in SP1.1)but this does not apply for PV modules. You can simply write ³NA² in the space provided. If they ask why, the simplest explanation it that PV modules are part of a DC circuit and power factor applies to AC circuits. It¹s not at all uncommon for interconnection documents to request information that is not applicable to PV systems. Best, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 Fax: 541.512.0343 Visit our Web site at solarprofessional.com (Sample copy available for download at: solarprofessional.com/sample) On 7/30/09 2:00 PM, Ron Young solarea...@solareagle.com wrote: Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-| I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with reference to PV: POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. . . Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ . . - Original Message - From: Ron Young mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. There is much more to it, with reactance, real and imaginary numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1. Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most situations. Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches, R. Walters Solarray.com NABCEP # 04170442 On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Ron Young wrote: Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-| I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % It was most likely just a trick question. You're gonna fool them, though ! :) boB I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with reference to PV: POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/ industry08_trainingdetails.pdf Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. ... ... Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - *From:* Ron Young mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com *To:* RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re- wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE- wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches- re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/ etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org - --- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
R. Walters wrote: Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters. For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current spikes up at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). Apparent power is what you get when you multiply your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless the PF = 1.0 in which case both will measure the same. Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be in phase and is the real or true power. Some of that VA may be reactive, (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the out of phase portion. Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase in current and voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90 degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the voltage, then the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0 It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically it. Feel free to add to this. boB power meters. There is much more to it, with reactance, real and imaginary numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1. Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most situations. Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches, R. Walters Solarray.com NABCEP # 04170442 On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Ron Young wrote: Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-| I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % It was most likely just a trick question. You're gonna fool them, though ! :) boB I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with reference to PV: POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues. So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after. Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: boB Gudgel wrote: So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power Factor... Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that ! Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two HP magazines. boB R. Walters wrote: Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters. For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current spikes up at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). Apparent power is what you get when you multiply your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless the PF = 1.0 in which case both will measure the same. Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be in phase and is the real or true power. Some of that VA may be reactive, (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the out of phase portion. Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase in current and voltage It's just a matter of how MUCH of your power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or - 90 degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the voltage, then the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power factor = 1.0 It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's basically it. Feel free to add to this. boB power meters. There is much more to it, with reactance, real and imaginary numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1. Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that most inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most situations. Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches, R. Walters Solarray.com NABCEP # 04170442 On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: Ron Young wrote: Ok, so all seem to be in agreement
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it seems like the PF could be an issue?? Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues. So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after. Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: boB Gudgel wrote: So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power Factor... Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that ! Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two HP magazines. boB R. Walters wrote: Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters. For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current spikes up at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). Apparent power is what you get when you multiply your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is unless the PF = 1.0 in which case both will measure the same. Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be in phase and is the real or true power. Some of that VA may be reactive, (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the out of phase portion. Capacitive and
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Matt wrote: Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it seems like the PF could be an issue?? Matt T Well, an inverter is just (supposed to be) a low impedance Voltage Source and the current does whatever it is going to do... And what that current - voltage relationship is, is definitely related to power factor. Is the generator (which works fine) passing ~through~ the Magnum and out to the loads and pump ? If so, then you know it's not a high resistance circuit or loose terminal block screw I guess. If the generator goes around the Magnum AE internal relays then I would suspect a high resistance connection somewhere. I would measure the voltage at the pump and note what it does when the pump is switched on from the inverter. I bet you a drink, (next time I see you), that the voltage drops to zero or at least very low. boB boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues. So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after. Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: boB Gudgel wrote: So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power Factor... Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that ! Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two HP magazines. boB R. Walters wrote: Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters. For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current spikes up at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
jay peltz wrote: Hi Matt, I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter won't even get a try out of the motor. I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start. And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too. I would check the current under load and surge if possible. Check the battery voltage. Could be a bad cap on the motor too. I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems like this. jay peltz power Shall we try for 4 out of a million plus ??Maybe it's another dreaded CBI breaker ? boB On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Matt wrote: Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would go for the bad starter or motor, but it seems like the PF could be an issue?? Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833 boB The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with no issues. So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the pump once, but not after. Matt T boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: boB Gudgel wrote: So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just said Power Factor... Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent power as David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can give you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that ! Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the phase shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article on PF recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of the two HP magazines. boB R. Walters wrote: Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage peak and current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and voltage waves are in time, (their wave peaks match up) power factor is 1. If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction of a second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. There is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very little lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have horrible PF. This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some power meters. For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power supplies without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current spikes up at the AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in phase, BUT the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non-linear. Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a PF of 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly the same AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always best to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) power, or VA to reactive power (VARS or Volt Ampere Reactive). That will work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). Apparent
Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
Matt and boB, This is only somewhat relevant, but may help: A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work, although I expected that it would. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM To: Matt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
Allan Sindelar wrote: Matt and boB, This is only somewhat relevant, but may help: A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work, although I expected that it would. Allan Sindelar H If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it was trying to start or not ? Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ? Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the inverter and also the generator just for a reference point. Sounds like a great use of a PF meter actually. boB al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM To: Matt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
Allan, Yeah. If I could talk him into a better pump (it's the money!) the whole issue would go away. Sort of. Like a lot of folks, they save their dough and pay for improvements piecemeal, and the pump is the last big hit (if they only knew!) being saved for. Matt Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Matt and boB, This is only somewhat relevant, but may help: A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work, although I expected that it would. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM To: Matt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
Geeze, Are the PF meters available separately without having to replace a perfectly fine 337? Matt boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Allan Sindelar wrote: Matt and boB, This is only somewhat relevant, but may help: A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work, although I expected that it would. Allan Sindelar H If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it was trying to start or not ? Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ? Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the inverter and also the generator just for a reference point. Sounds like a great use of a PF meter actually. boB al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM To: Matt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ?425-353-8833 boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor
Well, as it's the first grid-tie system in this region they are paying close attention. The guy I am dealing with is very stern and precise. I put down 100%, as they wanted a percentage. So we'll see. Thx all for the feedback, helpful as always! Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 5:58 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Ron, Why try to break it to them at all? Just answer the question. Put down 1.0 or unity. That's what they're looking for. Then go on to the next question. They'll never catch it. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 1:20 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Ron Young wrote: Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I break it to British Columbia Hydro? :-| I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking for but the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as the total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % It was most likely just a trick question. You're gonna fool them, though ! :) boB I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully understand what power factor is which will make it hard to argue my case. My understanding is that it is the difference between what the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads being used by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor with reference to PV: POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? This session will explain the role of power factor correction as it applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal energy savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant savings. http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/ industry08_trainingdetails.pdf Ron On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. .. .. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. .. .. - Original Message - *From:* Ron Young mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com *To:* RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power factor for Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a net metering interconnection application. Ron Young earthRight Products - Solareagle.com -- -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org - --- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor)
Hi all When trying to run the pump with the inverter, make the following measurements. DC amps, and DC volts to the inverter, multiply by about 0.9, this is the true power. Then measure at the same time the AC volts and the AC amps. this it the apparent power. Power factor is the ratio of apparent power to true power. Also if the AC current exceeds the inverter rating, you will know. Use a meter with surge capability, If the surge is to high the inverter may not restore voltage, kind of lock up until it reaches overload. Darryl --- On Thu, 7/30/09, Matt solar...@charter.net wrote: From: Matt solar...@charter.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Starting 3/4 Sub Pump (was Power Factor) To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Thursday, July 30, 2009, 7:38 PM Geeze, Are the PF meters available separately without having to replace a perfectly fine 337? Matt boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Allan Sindelar wrote: Matt and boB, This is only somewhat relevant, but may help: A few days ago, on initial bootup of a new system with a Magnum MS4024AE, we easily ran a 1HP submersible at nearly 500' head plus pressurizing (single pump system). However, this was a Grundfos SQ, so the soft-start made it much easier. Steady draw was about 88ADC at 25 VDC, or around 2200 watts. I had cautioned the client that this combination wasn't certain to work, although I expected that it would. Allan Sindelar H If this is a submersible pump, how would you really know it was trying to start or not ? Maybe he just can't hear it trying to start, as short as that try might be ? Yeah, I'd check the current and voltage when trying to start off the inverter and also the generator just for a reference point. Sounds like a great use of a PF meter actually. boB al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:45 PM To: Matt Cc: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Power Factor Matt wrote: Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No workee. Sounds kind of like a pump is broken or worn out problem, doesn't it ? If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do ~something~, or lights should dim or some kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I would suspect it might be a surge problem. Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is involved, the inverter must be able to sink current from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other decent inverter. Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? 425-353-8833 boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
