Re: [RE-wrenches] PENTAMETRIC
On Jan 8, 2010, at 9:39:59 PM, frenergy frene...@psln.com wrote: Don, Seems the benefit of using % charge would go out the window if your batteries were sulphatedjust when you would need the voltage based/temp comp logic the most. No experience with your proposal though. Bill Feather River Solar Electric Thanks Bill, Ken's approach is interesting. ---Use the Pentamatic for bulking and voltage control less frequently for completing the charge cycle. You are right that we need to pay attention to both AH and finish voltage. Don ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Can someone recommend a PV integrator on Kona area of the Big Island? I have a friend who is in the early stages of designing his retirement home and he wants to incorporate PV into his design. He is leaning towards a standing metal roof and Unisolar PV laminate and of course SDHW. Any help would be much appreciated. - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 image001.gif___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Thanks, Mr Brearley..i have looked into the Solar Bos disconncecting combiners and also the Blue Oak..both look very well designed and we look forward to using them when we have a project where it makes sense.small and medium residential projects dont pencil out for us based on the price of these productsI encouraged both companies to come up with a smaller version which has a price more in line with the smaller sized systems.. Luckily the latest inverters from most manufacturers take care of this need with their included/integrated but seperated fused DC disconnects. However seems to me that in the nearer future we need to be moving towards having disconnects located as close as possible to the array.. My dream combiner for all you manufacturers out there would be similar to the readywatt 3 or 4 circuit, fused, rail mountable, combiner with disconnect integrated I am still pondering how square D could have overlooked this important listing requirement..makes me wonder!?!?!? -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:41 AM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: (Unless, of course, you are working with a transformerless inverter and an ungrounded array, in which case both the positive and negative conductors would need to be switched, since both are ungrounded.) On 1/10/10 9:10 AM, Drake Chamberlin drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: At 05:14 PM 1/9/2010, you wrote: I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches/Heavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf).. We would need to use method D with the three pole. Method C would break the negative, leaving it ungrounded. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Kirpa: Have you considered using the Outback PSPV combiner with the 600 VDC touch-safe fuse holders and appropriate fuses? I belive this configuration meets the 600 VDC rating. William Miller At 12:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: Thanks, Mr Brearley..i have looked into the Solar Bos disconncecting combiners and also the Blue Oak..both look very well designed and we look forward to using them when we have a project where it makes sense.small and medium residential projects dont pencil out for us based on the price of these productsI encouraged both companies to come up with a smaller version which has a price more in line with the smaller sized systems.. Luckily the latest inverters from most manufacturers take care of this need with their included/integrated but seperated fused DC disconnects. However seems to me that in the nearer future we need to be moving towards having disconnects located as close as possible to the array.. My dream combiner for all you manufacturers out there would be similar to the readywatt 3 or 4 circuit, fused, rail mountable, combiner with disconnect integrated I am still pondering how square D could have overlooked this important listing requirement..makes me wonder!?!?!? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square D¹s self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesn¹t say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They won¹t admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 1/9/10 4:14 PM, Kirpal Khalsa solarwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All.. I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches/H eavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf )..we have for years been using the Square D DC Disconnect of various amperages (30, 60, 100) as disconnects leading upto the inverter from the array.we have frequently wired one string to each of the three poles of the disconnect..we have had this configuration inspected by inspectors regularly with approval everytime..this new revision of the document from Square D shows this is no longer a UL listed method.they are now stating in this document that they are self certifying this technique...have any of you come across this or know why Square D has back tracked? Something else I noticed is that they have raised the amperage rating on the 30A disconncect per pole by 2 amps from 18 to 20 which is good especially when using higher amperage modules like Evergreen ES-A series which would not have ben allowed to use the 30A disconnect as the short circuit current rating was too high for the derated poles. This is not a huge concern as more and more of the inverters we are using these days have an appropriate disconnect included with the inverter negating the need for an additional stand alone disconnect. On a side noteAre there any other manufacturers making listed muiti
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC disconnects
In response to this: Luckily the latest inverters from most manufacturers take care of this need with their included/integrated but seperated fused DC disconnects. I actually wish the integrated disconnects for the new inverters were an option when purchasing, i.e. when I order the inverter it comes with it automatically, and is therefore reflected in the price. Where I live the AHJ and utlities are requiring the handled-lockable-'regular' AC and DC disconnects regardless of whether or not there is a UL-listed integrated disconnect with the inverter. Alas, for me it is redundancy and extra cost for materials and electrical work either way. I can either have the electrician wire it up and pay their cost, or I can leave the integrated inverter out (when it is listed as optional in the installation manual) but now I have a non-returnable part sitting around, which is wasteful too. Alas, the best solution is more solar so everyone becomes more familiar with it! Keep Shining! Rebecca Lundberg Powerfully Green, Minnesota ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
William.we love the Outback FWPV12 and 8...a good improvement over the PSPV..we use them high voltage apps, but alas..don't open fuse under load.thats why we need a version which is disconnectable.. Cheers, -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:16 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Kirpa: Have you considered using the Outback PSPV combiner with the 600 VDC touch-safe fuse holders and appropriate fuses? I belive this configuration meets the 600 VDC rating. William Miller At 12:08 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: Thanks, Mr Brearley..i have looked into the Solar Bos disconncecting combiners and also the Blue Oak..both look very well designed and we look forward to using them when we have a project where it makes sense.small and medium residential projects dont pencil out for us based on the price of these productsI encouraged both companies to come up with a smaller version which has a price more in line with the smaller sized systems.. Luckily the latest inverters from most manufacturers take care of this need with their included/integrated but seperated fused DC disconnects. However seems to me that in the nearer future we need to be moving towards having disconnects located as close as possible to the array.. My dream combiner for all you manufacturers out there would be similar to the readywatt 3 or 4 circuit, fused, rail mountable, combiner with disconnect integrated I am still pondering how square D could have overlooked this important listing requirement..makes me wonder!?!?!? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects The testing for the HU series switches was performed by Square D according to a procedure that I wrote when working with SMA. The procedure was reviewed and accepted by UL as valid for the dedicated purpose of PV disconnect when used with the SMA SB2500. See ya! Marv 707 763-4784 x7016 David Brearley wrote: Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square Ds self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesnt say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, "Bill Brooks" billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They wont admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 1/9/10 4:14 PM, "Kirpal Khalsa" solarwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All.. I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches/Heavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf )..we have for years been using the Square D DC Disconnect of various amperages (30, 60, 100) as disconnects leading upto the inverter from the array.we have frequently wired one string to each of the three poles of the disconnect..we have had this configuration inspected by inspectors regularly with approval everytime..this new revision of the document from Square D shows this is no longer a UL listed method.they are now stating in this document that they are "self certifying" this technique...have any of you come across this or know why Square D has back tracked? Something else I noticed is that they have raised the amperage rating on the 30A disconncect per pole by 2 amps from 18 to 20 which is good especially when using higher amperage modules like Evergreen ES-A series which would not have ben
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects David, The NEC doesn't require UL listing. The most appropriate section of the code about this is Article 110, Requirements for Electrical Installations, it requires equipment to be approved. In many jurisdictions, such as Oregon, that means evaluated and approved by a testing lab such as UL. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. David Brearley wrote: Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square Ds self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesnt say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, "Bill Brooks" billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They wont admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 1/9/10 4:14 PM, "Kirpal Khalsa" solarwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All.. I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches/Heavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf )..we have for years been using the Square D DC Disconnect of various amperages (30, 60, 100) as disconnects leading upto the inverter from the array.we have frequently wired one string to each of the three poles of the disconnect..we have had this configuration inspected by inspectors regularly with approval everytime..this new revision of the document from Square D shows this is no longer a UL listed method.they are now stating in this document that they are "self certifying" this technique...have any of you come across this or know why Square D has back tracked? Something else I noticed is that they have raised the amperage rating on the 30A disconncect per pole by 2 amps from 18 to 20 which is good especially when using higher amperage modules like
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
David, The state by the Eaton guy at SPI shows that person's lack of understanding. The person I talked to was adamant that all disconnects had to be tested to the disconnect standard that assumes a high (10,000-amp) current source behind any fault. Switch openings are also tested based on the inductance in the circuit since that has a major impact on the size and duration of the arc-especially in ac systems. Square D did an evaluation based on the limited fault currents and inductance in PV system circuit that has no batteries. I believe their evaluation is valid. The issue is that there is no specific test at UL yet-that's why UL did not list it (I'm pretty sure they were involved at some level, but that is impossible to prove). It will probably be added to UL1741. Perhaps that was what the Eaton rep was referring-we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I still use my basic rule similar to the rule for politicians-how do you know if a marketing guy is lying?== his lips are moving. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 3:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: 'Tim Townsend' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square D's self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesn't say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They won't admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer T david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 1/9/10 4:14 PM, Kirpal Khalsa solarwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All.. I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches /Heavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf )..we have for years
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Right, Kent, but 690.4(D) does require the use of products ³identified and listed for the application.² So, for example, UL-listed combiner boxes are required per NEC 2008, whereas integrators could previously site build combiners using UL-listed parts. The appropriate listing for a PV combiner, everyone agrees, is UL1741. This code article lists most major components in a PV system, but not discos. I¹m simply wondering if there is some activity I am unaware of seeking to add dc discos to this list or to the UL1741 standard. Just curious. On 1/11/10 6:27 PM, Kent Osterberg k...@coveoregon.com wrote: David, The NEC doesn't require UL listing. The most appropriate section of the code about this is Article 110, Requirements for Electrical Installations, it requires equipment to be approved. In many jurisdictions, such as Oregon, that means evaluated and approved by a testing lab such as UL. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. David Brearley wrote: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square D¹s self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesn¹t say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They won¹t admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer david.brear...@solarprofessional.com On 1/9/10 4:14 PM, Kirpal Khalsa solarwo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All.. I recently came across a revised technical bulletin from square D ( http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches /Heavy%20Duty/3110DB0401.pdf )..we have for years been using the Square D DC Disconnect of various amperages (30, 60, 100) as disconnects leading upto the inverter from the array.we
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Thanks for the clarification, Bill. If they add this to UL1741, I hope they will do so in a manner that recognizes the unique characteristics of PV applications. Definitely easier to interrupt a 10A source than a 10,000A one. On 1/11/10 6:43 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David, The state by the Eaton guy at SPI shows that person¹s lack of understanding. The person I talked to was adamant that all disconnects had to be tested to the disconnect standard that assumes a high (10,000-amp) current source behind any fault. Switch openings are also tested based on the inductance in the circuit since that has a major impact on the size and duration of the arcespecially in ac systems. Square D did an evaluation based on the limited fault currents and inductance in PV system circuit that has no batteries. I believe their evaluation is valid. The issue is that there is no specific test at UL yetthat¹s why UL did not list it (I¹m pretty sure they were involved at some level, but that is impossible to prove). It will probably be added to UL1741. Perhaps that was what the Eaton rep was referringwe¹ll give him the benefit of the doubt. I still use my basic rule similar to the rule for politicianshow do you know if a marketing guy is lying?== his lips are moving. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 3:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: 'Tim Townsend' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square D¹s self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesn¹t say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They won¹t admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the Square D HU Series disconnects were not UL-listed when used as described in the older tech notes. The fact that this is not a UL-listed use of the heavy duty safety switch, pretty much means that it is not an option for integrators. As far as I know, there is no other product that is listed for this use. David Brearley, Senior
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Kirpal: Can't you disconnect the load at the inverter and then go back to the array to disconnect the feeder? William At 04:01 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: William.we love the Outback FWPV12 and 8...a good improvement over the PSPV..we use them high voltage apps, but alas..don't open fuse under load.thats why we need a version which is disconnectable.. Cheers, -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:16 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Kirpa: Have you considered using the Outback PSPV combiner with the 600 VDC touch-safe fuse holders and appropriate fuses? I belive this configuration meets the 600 VDC rating. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Not sure why the following reply which I posted a couple of hours ago never got posted on the list. I can offer more detail as to the considerations the test process must be given for this application if anybody is interested. Begin previous message: The testing for the HU series switches was performed by Square D according to a procedure that I wrote when working with SMA. The procedure was reviewed and accepted by UL as valid for the dedicated purpose of PV disconnect when used with the SMA SB2500. See ya! Marv 707 763-4784 x7016 See ya! Marv 707 763-4784 x7016 Bill Brooks wrote: David, The state by the Eaton guy at SPI shows that persons lack of understanding. The person I talked to was adamant that all disconnects had to be tested to the disconnect standard that assumes a high (10,000-amp) current source behind any fault. Switch openings are also tested based on the inductance in the circuit since that has a major impact on the size and duration of the arcespecially in ac systems. Square D did an evaluation based on the limited fault currents and inductance in PV system circuit that has no batteries. I believe their evaluation is valid. The issue is that there is no specific test at UL yetthats why UL did not list it (Im pretty sure they were involved at some level, but that is impossible to prove). It will probably be added to UL1741. Perhaps that was what the Eaton rep was referringwell give him the benefit of the doubt. I still use my basic rule similar to the rule for politicianshow do you know if a marketing guy is lying?== his lips are moving. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 3:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Cc: 'Tim Townsend' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Thanks, Bill. Glad to hear you think the HU series is still a good option. When I was making the rounds at SPI, I stopped by the Eaton booth and got the sense that they were gunning for Square D. They made light of Square Ds self-certification of the HU series discos. The rep also made a statement about the new Eaton dc discos being the only ones designed to meet UL1741 requirements. When I got home, the first thing I looked up was 690.4(D). This doesnt say anything about dc disconnects needing to be listed to some special PV standard. Is there a movement in this direction? Is there a UL1741 standard for dc discos that is somehow different that the standard used for other dc disconnects? Best, David On 1/11/10 5:28 PM, "Bill Brooks" billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: David and Kirpal, It is ultimately up to the AHJ whether or not they accept the Schneider/Square D self certification. That is a judgment call the installer needs to clear with the AHJ. That being said, having Square D behind the rating of a switch is a whole lot more than any one of the smaller companies making equipment for the PV industry. I will continue to use the 30, 60, and 100-amp versions in the way recommended by the manufacturer because it is a huge saving in cost and they are well made switches. I will also check with the local AHJ before installing them in case they are not going to pass it. You have to remember you are working with one of the largest electrical suppliers in the world. They have a huge reputation with local jurisdictions. Eaton has been in the process of trying to make a big deal out of this issue since they want a piece of the market. Fortunately, they are starting to build products specifically for the PV industry, which I applaud. However, they need to be given a hard time for the way they have tried to imply that all Square D switches are not properly listed. They wont admit to that because they would end up in a legal battle, but that is essentially what they have been doing. Square D still has the largest selection of dc-rated equipment on the market. Eaton has a long way to go. In a recent project that I reviewed, the engineer pulled the Square D 400-amp disconnect and replaced it with an Eaton disconnect at the insistence of the Eaton rep. The Eaton product was not properly rated or listed for the voltage while the Square D product was. This is the insanity that needs to stop. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 11:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects Kirpal, Have you checked out the SolarBOS disconnecting combiners? Their 28A version might be ideal for large resi or small commercial applications. For larger projects, Blue Oak PV Products and AMtec Solar also have disconnecting combiners. Thanks for sharing the updated Square D tech note. I had no idea that the
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
Yes, we could do that...however during instances of testing, trouble shooting, or in the event of a fire it can be helpful to have a wayto quikly disconnect the inverter from the combiner/fusing *at* the array. In most standard electrical work having a disconnect located not in line of sight from location of work leads to lock out/ tag out proceduresI see no difference here. It prevents one from having an inverter/disconnect from accidentally being turned on when you are working on the roof out of sight from a homeowner trying to help, or a co worker not paying attention. Sunny Regards, Kirpal On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:39 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Kirpal: Can't you disconnect the load at the inverter and then go back to the array to disconnect the feeder? William At 04:01 PM 1/11/2010, you wrote: William.we love the Outback FWPV12 and 8...a good improvement over the PSPV..we use them high voltage apps, but alas..don't open fuse under load.thats why we need a version which is disconnectable.. Cheers, -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:16 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote: Kirpa: Have you considered using the Outback PSPV combiner with the 600 VDC touch-safe fuse holders and appropriate fuses? I belive this configuration meets the 600 VDC rating. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] OB VFX3648 vs Munchkin?
Heyall;I have a customer eyeing their new OB VFX3648 for their Boiler (Munchkin (sp?)) malfunction. anyone seen this or any similar issues? thanks. dbDan BrownPresidentFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3648 vs Munchkin?
I seem to remember someone having problems and it was that the voltage of the outback would sag when operating just very small control currents. --- On Mon, 1/11/10, d...@foxfire-energy.com d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: From: d...@foxfire-energy.com d...@foxfire-energy.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3648 vs Munchkin? To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Monday, January 11, 2010, 9:35 PM Heyall;I have a customer eyeing their new OB VFX3648 for their Boiler (Munchkin (sp?)) malfunction. anyone seen this or any similar issues? thanks. db Dan Brown President Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3648 vs Munchkin?
Hey Dan, I have had a persistent issue with a Boderus low mass boiler at one of my off-grid clients (dual stack VFX3648's, FM80, FNDC, etc. It goes into error sporadically, perhaps after a longer generator (Kohler 12 kW propane) charge run, maybe as it (the generator) shuts off. We tried to isolate the boiler's power supply with a small UPS with now luck. Outback couldn't help. Seems Boderus may know something about this issue in regards to generator/inverter setups, but the install base is so small they choose to ignore it. Don't know if this is related, and I have no solutions after many attempts at fixing it. Sorry... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Mon, January 11, 2010 10:35 pm, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote: I have a customer eyeing their new OB VFX3648 for their Boiler (Munchkin (sp?)) malfunction. anyone seen this or any similar issues? thanks. db ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] OB VFX3648 vs Munchkin?
Dan, Long-winded response compendium below. This is my record of a on-list and off-list Wrenches discussion of a similar boiler issue on one of our jobs, about a year ago. The issue never got resolved with Magnum or Buderus, but when the customer's hydronic contractor changed to a different boiler the problem disappeared and hasn't returned. Below the thread is my email to Buderus, with a reply from engineering acknowledging the problem. This isn't Munchkin, but you might find some material here to use in your situation.
Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D DC disconnects
I got into that one a few years ago with an inspector. He cited 110.2. Approved according to article 100 means: acceptable to the AHJ. So put article 100 into 110.2 and you get: Conductors and Equipment required or permitted shall be acceptable only if 'acceptable to the AHJ' Basically I call these 2 sections of the code read together as the 'AHJ = The Man' ruling. I guess there was some politics involved in NOT putting that together for all to see? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Jan 11, 2010, at 5:27 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: David, The NEC doesn't require UL listing. The most appropriate section of the code about this is Article 110, Requirements for Electrical Installations, it requires equipment to be approved. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
