Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

[David Katz]

William
I have a grid tie system with a Outback Radian and Xantrex 600 volt charge 
controller with 4kw of modules and it sells back flawlessly.  I have 
revenue-grade monitoring on the system and I am very happy with the output.
David Katz

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:51 AM, "William Miller"  wrote:

> Friends:
> 
> There has been recent discussion on this forum about PV production in 
> grid-tied with battery systems.  I have been faced with this same problem 
> in a 3 XW system installed in 2009.
> 
> The customer's power bill never went down.  PV harvest was abysmal.  The 
> system would create great short circuit current but would not harvest into 
> the batteries.
> 
> It is starting to appear the XW firmware was at fault.  The inverters would 
> charge the batteries too high so the charge controllers would back 
> off.  Upgraded firmware seems to be helping, but the data set is still 
> limited.
> 
> Remember this:  just because a PV system can produce does not mean it 
> will.  The charge controller knows only one thing:  battery voltage.  If it 
> is high, production is curtailed.
> 
> Off-grid production will also be reduced is consumption is curtailed.
> 
> Charge controllers that can be set for grid-tied applications help, but 
> only if the inverter(s) do not keep the battery voltage too high.
> 
> William Miller
> 
> 
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600
> email: will...@millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

[Bill Loesch]

David,

What did you choose for revenue-grade monitoring?

Comments?

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094


On 18-Apr-12 4:01 AM, David Katz wrote:

William
I have a grid tie system with a Outback Radian and Xantrex 600 volt charge 
controller with 4kw of modules and it sells back flawlessly.  I have 
revenue-grade monitoring on the system and I am very happy with the output.
David Katz

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:51 AM, "William Miller"  wrote:


Friends:

There has been recent discussion on this forum about PV production in
grid-tied with battery systems.  I have been faced with this same problem
in a 3 XW system installed in 2009.

The customer's power bill never went down.  PV harvest was abysmal.  The
system would create great short circuit current but would not harvest into
the batteries.

It is starting to appear the XW firmware was at fault.  The inverters would
charge the batteries too high so the charge controllers would back
off.  Upgraded firmware seems to be helping, but the data set is still limited.

Remember this:  just because a PV system can produce does not mean it
will.  The charge controller knows only one thing:  battery voltage.  If it
is high, production is curtailed.

Off-grid production will also be reduced is consumption is curtailed.

Charge controllers that can be set for grid-tied applications help, but
only if the inverter(s) do not keep the battery voltage too high.

William Miller


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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-
No virus found in this message.
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Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4943 - Release Date: 04/17/12



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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Darryl Thayer]

Nathan, the problem should not be in the size of the GFDI breaker, put the GFDI 
between the array and the charge controller.  certainly your array voltage is 
100 or greater, meaning you have 45 amps of less through the breaker.   Also if 
you have a large array parallel the arrays, and run each of the "hots" through 
each of the two breakers in the Outback dual GFDI,.  Also increase the series 
string count and use a HV controller, such as Apollo T80HV or Classic.  If 
depending upon climate, you might be able to work near 150 V string.  or 9000+ 
watts, you will not find a charge controller this size.  If you are working at 
48 volts the largest charge controller is about 3600 watts.  If you are working 
at 24 volts, you will need three strings, and I do not know if there is a 4x80 
GFDI available.  The Trace Xantres used to offer a 4x80 GFDI but I have not 
seen for several years.  
 
BTW I am not sure if code allows the Xantrex 60 with fused GFDI to be 
paralleled at all.  
 
BTW never connect charge controllers in parallel on the Array side. and if you 
are connecting on the battery side besure the charge controllers can talk to 
each other,  If the charge controller is charging the second charge controller 
may interpet the batteries to be full and not be charging.  Apollo T-80 can be 
paralleled,  the old MX60 would trick itself and did not charge well in 
parallel.  .    
 


 From: William Miller 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:42 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers
  

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG CU
wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to the FM
or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be
helpful.

Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All
they do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find
the problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is
removed and module mounting framework could be energized.  PV GFD
breakers are completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground fault
detection and interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers.  The
AC versions interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt power 
downstream from the fault.

See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html
for some musings on the subject.

As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"

William Miller





At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Nathan,
>
>I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker model 
>that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp breaker.
>
>The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP for it. 
>You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp GFP would work.
>
>You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the same time 
>if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the charge controller 
>input. That's where Outback's instructions used to show the GFP, and it is a 
>better place for it than on the charge controller output anyway. Midnite's 
>instructions show the GFP on the charge controller input, but their 80-amp GFP 
>is a single.
>
>
>Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com 
>On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote: 
>
>Wrenches,
>> 
>>In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 controller,  520 
>>watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, including adding a 4 kW solar 
>>array with Classic 150 charge controller. I am trying to figure out how to 
>>handle the GFP.
>> 
>>For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A is not an 
>>option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an option.
>> 
>>Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never seen? Is there a way 
>>to use the Classic’s GFP to run an external relay via AUX (to trip the FM60 
>>output breaker at the same time)? Any ideas?
>> 
>>Thanks,
>>-Nathan
>> 
>>--
>>Nathan J. Stumpff - Arctic Sun, LLC
>>NABCEP Ceritified PV Installer #091209-175
>>nat...@arcticsun-llc.com
>>Office: 907/457-1297
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[jay peltz]

Hi William,

I agree with you on the GFP.

There is a work around for the larger breaker size and that is to install a 
prebreaker from the array then to the GFP breaker then to the CC.
You then get to work on the smallest breaker size for wiring, if my 
understanding of the code is correct.

jay

peltz power


On Apr 17, 2012, at 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

> Friends:
> 
> Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault detection) 
> breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG CU wire from the 
> battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to the FM or MX60.  This 
> seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of charging.  A variety of sizes of 
> GFD breakers would be helpful.
> 
> Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they do is 
> turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the problem.  In 
> the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed and module mounting 
> framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers are completely different from 
> standard AC GFDI (ground fault detection and interruption) receptacles and 
> circuit breakers.  The AC versions interrupt power upstream, the PV versions 
> interrupt power downstream from the fault.
> 
> See:  
> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html
>  for some musings on the subject.
> 
> As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"
> 
> William Miller
> 
> 

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[RE-wrenches] pressure switch question

[jay peltz]

HI All,

I'm looking for a contact pressure gauge with built in switches.

( this is an example..http://www.indumart.com/P84.pdf)

I am looking to turn on/off a hydro with pressure increase/decrease.

But I just can't seem to find one to buy for anything less than $600.

SPECs:
switching 24vdc
less than 1 amp.

Any suggestions?

thanks,

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

[David Katz]

William 
I am using an Elkor meter with RS485 output connected to a SolarLog1000. There 
are two current transformers connected to the Elkor meter. I ran each wire from 
the 240 vac from the main load center through a current transformer to the 
Radian ac input. Then I ran the Ac output line from the radian back through the 
same current transformers to the subpanel for backed up loads. That way the ac 
passing through the radian from the grid to the subpanel reads 0 since it 
passes both way through the CTs, but power coming from the Radian is measured 
going to the grid and to the loads in the subpanel.
I am traveling in Europe at the moment and I done have a computer so I do not 
have the link to the monitoring. I will try to get it so you can take a look.
David

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:30 PM, "Bill Loesch"  wrote:

> 
> David,
> 
> What did you choose for revenue-grade monitoring?
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> 314 631 1094
> 
> 
> On 18-Apr-12 4:01 AM, David Katz wrote:
>> William
>> I have a grid tie system with a Outback Radian and Xantrex 600 volt charge 
>> controller with 4kw of modules and it sells back flawlessly.  I have 
>> revenue-grade monitoring on the system and I am very happy with the output.
>> David Katz
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:51 AM, "William Miller"  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Friends:
>>> 
>>> There has been recent discussion on this forum about PV production in
>>> grid-tied with battery systems.  I have been faced with this same problem
>>> in a 3 XW system installed in 2009.
>>> 
>>> The customer's power bill never went down.  PV harvest was abysmal.  The
>>> system would create great short circuit current but would not harvest into
>>> the batteries.
>>> 
>>> It is starting to appear the XW firmware was at fault.  The inverters would
>>> charge the batteries too high so the charge controllers would back
>>> off.  Upgraded firmware seems to be helping, but the data set is still 
>>> limited.
>>> 
>>> Remember this:  just because a PV system can produce does not mean it
>>> will.  The charge controller knows only one thing:  battery voltage.  If it
>>> is high, production is curtailed.
>>> 
>>> Off-grid production will also be reduced is consumption is curtailed.
>>> 
>>> Charge controllers that can be set for grid-tied applications help, but
>>> only if the inverter(s) do not keep the battery voltage too high.
>>> 
>>> William Miller
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
>>> Voice :805-438-5600
>>> email: will...@millersolar.com
>>> http://millersolar.com
>>> License No. C-10-773985
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2411/4943 - Release Date: 04/17/12
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

[toddcory]

im curious david, how you measure the output of the radian since the system is 
grid tie/w battery backup. the only way i have seen to do this is with a kv2c 
meter on each 120 volt leg. is that how you are monitoring the output of the 
inverter?
 
thanks,
 
todd
 
 
 
 
On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 2:01am, "David Katz"  said:



> William
> I have a grid tie system with a Outback Radian and Xantrex 600 volt charge
> controller with 4kw of modules and it sells back flawlessly.  I have 
> revenue-grade
> monitoring on the system and I am very happy with the output.
> David Katz
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:51 AM, "William Miller" 
> wrote:
> 
> > Friends:
> >
> > There has been recent discussion on this forum about PV production in
> > grid-tied with battery systems.  I have been faced with this same problem
> > in a 3 XW system installed in 2009.
> >
> > The customer's power bill never went down.  PV harvest was abysmal.  The
> > system would create great short circuit current but would not harvest into
> > the batteries.
> >
> > It is starting to appear the XW firmware was at fault.  The inverters would
> > charge the batteries too high so the charge controllers would back
> > off.  Upgraded firmware seems to be helping, but the data set is still
> limited.
> >
> > Remember this:  just because a PV system can produce does not mean it
> > will.  The charge controller knows only one thing:  battery voltage.  If it
> > is high, production is curtailed.
> >
> > Off-grid production will also be reduced is consumption is curtailed.
> >
> > Charge controllers that can be set for grid-tied applications help, but
> > only if the inverter(s) do not keep the battery voltage too high.
> >
> > William Miller
> >
> >
> > Miller Solar
> > Voice :805-438-5600
> > email: will...@millersolar.com
> > http://millersolar.com
> > License No. C-10-773985
> >
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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Re: [RE-wrenches] pressure switch question

[toddcory]

why not just use a well pump pressure switch?
 
todd
 
 
 
 
 
On Wednesday, April 18, 2012 8:29am, "jay peltz"  said:



> HI All,
> 
> I'm looking for a contact pressure gauge with built in switches.
> 
> ( this is an example..http://www.indumart.com/P84.pdf)
> 
> I am looking to turn on/off a hydro with pressure increase/decrease.
> 
> But I just can't seem to find one to buy for anything less than $600.
> 
> SPECs:
> switching 24vdc
> less than 1 amp.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

[Dana]

We have a 7 year old Outback Dual GTFX 3624 system with around 1100 AHR of
24 volt battery backup supplied by 2400 PV watts - 1200 PV watts tracked
[wins by 32% output over the fixed array] and 1200 PV watts fixed on the
roof of our office. Consistently the utility back feed is 750-900 watts/hour
during a sunny day after meeting all of our home and office loads. 
Home, Office, battery charging & approx. 750-900 watts spin the meter
backwards during the sunny part of the day. Right now it is 724 watts back
feed to the utility and hazy with little cumulus floating about.


Dana Orzel -  Great Solar Works, Inc -  E - d...@solarwork.com -  V
970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com  
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
P Please consider the environment before printing this email


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 3:01 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV harvest in grid-tied systems

William
I have a grid tie system with a Outback Radian and Xantrex 600 volt charge
controller with 4kw of modules and it sells back flawlessly.  I have
revenue-grade monitoring on the system and I am very happy with the output.
David Katz

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 16, 2012, at 6:51 AM, "William Miller" 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
> There has been recent discussion on this forum about PV production in 
> grid-tied with battery systems.  I have been faced with this same 
> problem in a 3 XW system installed in 2009.
>
> The customer's power bill never went down.  PV harvest was abysmal.  
> The system would create great short circuit current but would not 
> harvest into the batteries.
>
> It is starting to appear the XW firmware was at fault.  The inverters 
> would charge the batteries too high so the charge controllers would 
> back off.  Upgraded firmware seems to be helping, but the data set is
still limited.
>
> Remember this:  just because a PV system can produce does not mean it 
> will.  The charge controller knows only one thing:  battery voltage.  
> If it is high, production is curtailed.
>
> Off-grid production will also be reduced is consumption is curtailed.
>
> Charge controllers that can be set for grid-tied applications help, 
> but only if the inverter(s) do not keep the battery voltage too high.
>
> William Miller

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Kent Osterberg]

William,

Square D used to make a QO breaker body without the overcurrent trip 
mechanism. Internally it just had the switch contacts and it was 
intended for use as a disconnect in locations where overcurrent 
protection was already provided. The reason I mention this is that the 
80-amp PV GFP should not be thought of as overcurrent protection. In 
fact it would be most appropriate if the 80-amp side of the GFP didn't 
have an overcurrent trip mechanism. It /should/ only be sensitive to 
ground faults. If it is sensitive to overcurrent, then it may be 
activated when there isn't a ground fault and unnecessarily disconnect 
the negative conductor from ground.


Code prohibits the use of a GFP as a disconnect for the PV array. I 
believe that's because they intend the power system to remain bonded to 
ground except in the event of ground fault. It follows that the GFP 
should not be used as a disconnect between the batteries and charge 
controller either. That's my interpretation. The Code doesn't mention 
the possibility of putting the GFP between the batteries and charge 
controller as Outback's instructions for the GFDI require. So, even 
though Outback's instructions for the GFDI don't show it, put an 
appropriate breaker for overcurrent protection between the battery and 
the GFDI, then use wire that's appropriate for the charge controller and 
overcurrent protection.


In my opinion putting the GFDI between the batteries and charge 
controller is a really bad idea. Nearly all charge controllers warn that 
the battery should be turned on first and turned off last. It puts much 
more stress on the charge controller when the battery circuit is opened 
under load than it does when the PV circuit is opened. In fact opening 
the battery circuit may well cause the charge controller to fail. 
Outback warns that if their charge controllers are connected to a 
positive ground system, the communication port of the charge controller 
or the Hub may be damaged. If there is a fault in the PV array that 
causes the GFDI to open, it very well may leave the system in a positive 
ground condition.


When upgrading an older PSDC Outback system which instructions are more 
appropriate to follow? The ones for the PSDC that show the GFP before 
the charge controller. Or the newer instructions for the GFDI that show 
it after the charge controller. Except the the label and instructions 
the GFP and the GFDI are identical. In case you don't remember, the PSDC 
came with a schematic showing all possible options attached to the back 
of the front panel. When it comes time to troubleshoot sometime in the 
future, that schematic is still going to be there.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882


On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault 
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG 
CU wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to 
the FM or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of 
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be helpful.


Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they 
do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the 
problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed and 
module mounting framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers are 
completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground fault detection and 
interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers.  The AC versions 
interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt power /downstream/ 
from the fault.


See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html 
for some musings on the subject.


As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"

William Miller





At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Nathan,

I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker 
model that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp breaker.


The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP 
for it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp GFP 
would work.


You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the 
same time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the 
charge controller input. That's where Outback's instructions used to 
show the GFP, and it is a better place for it than on the charge 
controller output anyway. Midnite's instructions show the GFP on the 
charge controller input, but their 80-amp GFP is a single.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com  

On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote:

Wrenches,

In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, 
including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150 charge 
controller. I am trying t

[RE-wrenches] Washington made

[Mark Dickson]

Hello Wrenches, 

We have been asked to participate in a small bid on Washington State.  I am
having a hard time finding made in Washington grid-tied inverters and solar
modules in order to fulfill their rebate requirements.  So far I have come
across Silicon Energy and Itek Energy.  A micro-inverter would be a plus.
Are there any others that I should be looking into?

 

Best regards,

 

Mark Dickson,

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

Oasis Montana Inc.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Washington made

[Jonathan Hill]

Mark-
Outback makes several good grid-tied inverters in Washington. They do need 
batteries however.

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  
world wide web:  

On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Mark Dickson wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> We have been asked to participate in a small bid on Washington State.  I am 
> having a hard time finding made in Washington grid-tied inverters and solar 
> modules in order to fulfill their rebate requirements.  So far I have come 
> across Silicon Energy and Itek Energy.  A micro-inverter would be a plus.  
> Are there any others that I should be looking into?
>  
> Best regards,
>  
> Mark Dickson,
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™
> Oasis Montana Inc.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

A lot of good replies have come by here but here goes another one...

The GFP cannot be used for dual purpose as a disconnect for battery
or PV input and you are not allowed to un-ground the system by turning
off the DC input or output breaker.

4 AWG should be fine for 80 amps. If you need/want to use smaller wire
than that required for an 80 amp GFP, MidNite makes a 63 amp GFP.

boB




On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault 
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG 
CU wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to 
the FM or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of 
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be helpful.


Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they 
do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the 
problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed and 
module mounting framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers are 
completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground fault detection and 
interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers.  The AC versions 
interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt power /downstream/ 
from the fault.


See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html 
for some musings on the subject.


As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"

William Miller



At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Nathan,

I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker 
model that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp 
breaker.


The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP 
for it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp GFP 
would work.


You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the 
same time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the 
charge controller input. That's where Outback's instructions used to 
show the GFP, and it is a better place for it than on the charge 
controller output anyway. Midnite's instructions show the GFP on the 
charge controller input, but their 80-amp GFP is a single.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com  

On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote:

Wrenches,

In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, 
including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150 charge 
controller. I am trying to figure out how to handle the GFP.


For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A 
is not an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an option.


Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never seen? Is 
there a way to use the Classic's GFP to run an external relay via 
AUX (to trip the FM60 output breaker at the same time)? Any ideas?


Thanks,
-Nathan

Nathan J. Stumpff - Arctic Sun, LLC
NABCEP Ceritified PV Installer #091209-175
nat...@arcticsun-llc.com 
Office: 907/457-1297

_


Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Washington made

[Mark Dickson]

I should have mentioned battery-less grid tied.  Thanks!

 

Best regards,

 

Mark Dickson,

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

Oasis Montana Inc.

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Hill
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 4:02 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Washington made

 

Mark-

Outback makes several good grid-tied inverters in Washington. They do need
batteries however.

 

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  

world wide web:  

 

On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Mark Dickson wrote:





Hello Wrenches, 

We have been asked to participate in a small bid on Washington State.  I am
having a hard time finding made in Washington grid-tied inverters and solar
modules in order to fulfill their rebate requirements.  So far I have come
across Silicon Energy and Itek Energy.  A micro-inverter would be a plus.
Are there any others that I should be looking into?

 

Best regards,

 

Mark Dickson,

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

Oasis Montana Inc.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Washington made

[Bill Hoffer]

Mark

Try http://bluefrogsolar.com/wa-made-solar-products  I believe that they
are now shipping a Washington made micro inverter.  There is one other
microinverter, but I do not believe that they have passed UL yet and have
not gone public.

Bill Hoffer

Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Mark Dickson  wrote:

> ** ** ** **
>
> Hello Wrenches, 
>
> We have been asked to participate in a small bid on Washington** **
> State.  I am having a hard time finding made in 
> Washingtongrid-tied inverters and solar modules in order to fulfill 
> their rebate
> requirements.  So far I have come across Silicon Energy and Itek Energy.  A
> micro-inverter would be a plus.  Are there any others that I should be
> looking into?
>
> ** **
>
> Best regards,
>
> ** **
>
> Mark Dickson,
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Kent Osterberg]

William,

There have been too many fires where GFP failed to operate correctly to 
argue that they are really good at what they are supposed to do. But, I 
think it is inappropriate to say they don't really work at all. How many 
fires could have or would have happened without the GFP devices? Does 
anyone have stats?


In every PV system I've installed, and since you do high quality work, 
I'm confident that in every one that you have installed, the mounting 
framework is securely grounded. The GFP device does not change that 
circumstance. Every junction box, conduit, mounting rail, and PV module 
is grounded and safe to touch regardless of what the GFP does. If 
someone removes /the /module grounding while looking for a ground fault, 
then it is possible to have an energized module frame, but the GFP 
didn't create this risk. The system could be solidly grounded with no 
GFP device and the module frame would be just as energized. It's 
important that every PV installer understand that risk and also 
understand that every properly grounded component of the system is still 
perfectly safe.


My major complaint about the GFP is that, in battery systems, they 
expose the homeowner to unsafe conditions. 690.5(C) requires that a GFP 
hazard warning be located within site of the batteries. Unfortunately, 
the person servicing the 12-volt or 24-volt refrigerator or lights isn't 
going to see that warning. In the event of a ground fault that opens the 
GFP device, the negative wire going to the lights or refrigerator or any 
other dc load may be energized to -150-volts to ground. Or maybe -300 
volts or -600 volts with some of the new charge controllers. Ground, the 
green wire running everywhere, is connected to the positive PV wire 
someplace in the array and the negative wire is connected to every 
negative wire in the system. If the unexpected voltage isn't a bad 
enough risk, the current may be worse. There is nothing to stop the arc 
from the shorted PV array if someone accidently connects negative to 
ground. This is actually a preventable circumstance: the GFP simply 
needs to open both PV+ and PV-. The manufacturers need to step up and 
correct this. The NEC needs to be changed to require it. This won't 
reduce the risks at the PV array, but it is certainly worth it to design 
components that don't but homeowners at unnecessary risk.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault 
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG 
CU wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to 
the FM or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of 
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be helpful.


Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they 
do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the 
problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed and 
module mounting framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers are 
completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground fault detection and 
interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers.  The AC versions 
interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt power /downstream/ 
from the fault.


See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html 
for some musings on the subject.


As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"

William Miller





At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Nathan,

I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker 
model that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp breaker.


The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP 
for it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp GFP 
would work.


You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the 
same time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the 
charge controller input. That's where Outback's instructions used to 
show the GFP, and it is a better place for it than on the charge 
controller output anyway. Midnite's instructions show the GFP on the 
charge controller input, but their 80-amp GFP is a single.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com  

On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote:

Wrenches,

In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, 
including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150 charge 
controller. I am trying to figure out how to handle the GFP.


For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A 
is not an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an option.


Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never seen? Is 
there a way to use the Classic's GFP to run an external relay via 
AUX (t

Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Darryl Thayer]

Bob do you know of a 4x80 GFDI breaker?  Midnight has a 2X80 correct? and 
Outback has a 2X80   
Wire size use the tap rule, 10 feet 10% of wire size.  
 


 From: "b...@midnitesolar.com" 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers
  


A lot of good replies have come by here but here goes another
  one...

The GFP cannot be used for dual purpose as a disconnect for
  battery
or PV input and you are not allowed to un-ground the system by turning
off the DC input or output breaker.

4 AWG should be fine for 80 amps. If you need/want to use smaller
  wire
than that required for an 80 amp GFP, MidNite makes a 63 amp GFP.

boB




On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:
 
Friends:
>
>Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground
fault
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use
3AWG CU
wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker
to the FM
or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be
helpful.
>
>Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All
they do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone
will find
the problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is
removed and module mounting framework could be energized.  PV
GFD
breakers are completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground
fault
detection and interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers. 
The
AC versions interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt
power downstream from the fault.
>
>See: 

http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html
for some musings on the subject.
>
>As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"
>
>William Miller
>
>
>
>At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote: 
> 
>Nathan,
>>
>>I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount
  breaker model that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include
  a 100-amp breaker. 
>>
>>The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an
  external GFP for it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 -
  a single 80-amp GFP would work.
>>
>>You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays
  at the same time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV
  array from the charge controller input. That's where Outback's
  instructions used to show the GFP, and it is a better place
  for it than on the charge controller output anyway. Midnite's
  instructions show the GFP on the charge controller input, but
  their 80-amp GFP is a single.
>>
>> 
>>Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com  
>>On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote: 
>> 
>>Wrenches,
>>> 
>>>In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of
work, including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150
charge controller. I am trying to figure out how to handle
the GFP.
>>> 
>>>For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker
minimum. 80 A is not an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80
A, and so it not an option.
>>> 
>>>Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never
seen? Is there a way to use the Classic’s GFP to run an
external relay via AUX (to trip the FM60 output breaker at
the same time)? Any ideas?
>>> 
>>>Thanks,
>>>-Nathan
>>>  
>>>Nathan J. Stumpff - Arctic Sun, LLC
>>>NABCEP Ceritified PV Installer #091209-175
>>>nat...@arcticsun-llc.com 
>>>Office: 907/457-1297
>>>  _
>> Voice :805-438-5600
>email: will...@millersolar.com
>http://millersolar.com
>License No. C-10-773985
>   
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

On 4/18/2012 4:41 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

Bob do you know of a 4x80 GFDI breaker?  Midnight has a 2X80 correct?



No, but we have a 1 X 63 amp /  300 volt GFP that can be configured as 2 
X 63 amp GFP.


boB







and Outback has a 2X80
Wire size use the tap rule, 10 feet 10% of wire size.

*From:* "b...@midnitesolar.com" 
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Sent:* Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:08 PM
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers


A lot of good replies have come by here but here goes another one...

The GFP cannot be used for dual purpose as a disconnect for battery
or PV input and you are not allowed to un-ground the system by turning
off the DC input or output breaker.

4 AWG should be fine for 80 amps. If you need/want to use smaller wire
than that required for an 80 amp GFP, MidNite makes a 63 amp GFP.

boB




On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault 
detection) breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG 
CU wire from the battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to 
the FM or MX60.  This seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of 
charging.  A variety of sizes of GFD breakers would be helpful.


Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they 
do is turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find 
the problem.  In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed 
and module mounting framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers 
are completely different from standard AC GFDI (ground fault 
detection and interruption) receptacles and circuit breakers.  The AC 
versions interrupt power upstream, the PV versions interrupt power 
/downstream/ from the fault.


See:  
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html 
for some musings on the subject.


As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"

William Miller



At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote:

Nathan,

I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker 
model that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp 
breaker.


The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP 
for it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp 
GFP would work.


You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the 
same time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the 
charge controller input. That's where Outback's instructions used to 
show the GFP, and it is a better place for it than on the charge 
controller output anyway. Midnite's instructions show the GFP on the 
charge controller input, but their 80-amp GFP is a single.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com  

On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote:

Wrenches,

In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, 
including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150 charge 
controller. I am trying to figure out how to handle the GFP.


For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A 
is not an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an 
option.


Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never seen? Is 
there a way to use the Classic's GFP to run an external relay via 
AUX (to trip the FM60 output breaker at the same time)? Any ideas?


Thanks,
-Nathan

Nathan J. Stumpff - Arctic Sun, LLC
NABCEP Ceritified PV Installer #091209-175
nat...@arcticsun-llc.com 
Office: 907/457-1297

_

Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com 
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Philip]

Darryl, OutBack makes GFDI in single, double and quad pole flavors:  80 Amps 
per pole, 1/2 Amp between the ground and grounded conductor. 

The current method of ground fault protection is an imperfect beast, 
absolutely. However, it's been the industry standard and both the Code and 
standards have been written, interpreted and enforced in a manner that left 
installers and manufacturers little option. Like Kent, as an installer I never 
felt comfortable installing a device that, in a battery system, disabled the 
return fault current bond while leaving the inverter and DC loads operating. 
However, I want to call out and take exception to one of Kent's comments -- 
when there is a ground fault and the GF device lifts the bond, no metal object 
should be considered safe, no matter how securely you've grounded the array and 
all objects. By definition, all grounded surfaces which are normally at zero 
potential to ground should be considered as potentially energized when the 
system is indicating a fault. Think rattlesnake, loaded gun, whatever keeps 
your crew attentive and focused. 

I think (but have no proof) that much of what passes as unusual or inexplicable 
behavior with PV arrays and ground faults resides in first-fault failures in 
the grounded conductors of PV arrays, to which current GFDI methods are blind. 

I think the real solution will be when we as an industry transition to a more 
advanced method of GFDI, similar to what Europe does and what Bill Brooks and 
others are advocating. It's a better way. 

Phil



On Apr 18, 2012, at 4:41 PM, Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> Bob do you know of a 4x80 GFDI breaker?  Midnight has a 2X80 correct? and 
> Outback has a 2X80   
> Wire size use the tap rule, 10 feet 10% of wire size.  
> 
> From: "b...@midnitesolar.com" 
> To: RE-wrenches  
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2012 5:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers
> 
> 
> A lot of good replies have come by here but here goes another one...
> 
> The GFP cannot be used for dual purpose as a disconnect for battery
> or PV input and you are not allowed to un-ground the system by turning
> off the DC input or output breaker.
> 
> 4 AWG should be fine for 80 amps. If you need/want to use smaller wire
> than that required for an 80 amp GFP, MidNite makes a 63 amp GFP.
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> Friends:
>> 
>> Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault detection) 
>> breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG CU wire from the 
>> battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to the FM or MX60.  This 
>> seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of charging.  A variety of sizes of 
>> GFD breakers would be helpful.
>> 
>> Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they do is 
>> turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the problem.  
>> In the meantime, the negative-to-ground bond is removed and module mounting 
>> framework could be energized.  PV GFD breakers are completely different from 
>> standard AC GFDI (ground fault detection and interruption) receptacles and 
>> circuit breakers.  The AC versions interrupt power upstream, the PV versions 
>> interrupt power downstream from the fault.
>> 
>> See:  
>> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/ground_fauilt/_ground_fault.html
>>  for some musings on the subject.
>> 
>> As they say on TV: "There had to be a better way!"
>> 
>> William Miller
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 05:54 PM 4/17/2012, Kent Osterberg wrote: 
>>> Nathan,
>>> 
>>> I don't think anyone makes a 100-amp PV GFP. The panel mount breaker model 
>>> that's being used for the PV GFP doesn't include a 100-amp breaker. 
>>> 
>>> The Classic has a built-in GFP so you shouldn't need an external GFP for 
>>> it. You will need to add a GFP for the FM60 - a single 80-amp GFP would 
>>> work.
>>> 
>>> You can use the dual 80-amp GFP and shut down both PV arrays at the same 
>>> time if the GFP is wired to disconnect the PV array from the charge 
>>> controller input. That's where Outback's instructions used to show the GFP, 
>>> and it is a better place for it than on the charge controller output 
>>> anyway. Midnite's instructions show the GFP on the charge controller input, 
>>> but their 80-amp GFP is a single.
>>> 
>>>  Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>>> www.bluemountainsolar.com
>>> 
>>> On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote: 
 Wrenches,
  
 In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 controller,  
 520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, including adding a 4 kW 
 solar array with Classic 150 charge controller. I am trying to figure out 
 how to handle the GFP.
  
 For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A is not 
 an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an option.
  
 Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just 

Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Philip]

Hi Kent, 

I wanted to add a little more re positive grounding. OutBack's communication 
structure, like many other manufacturers, is referenced to Negative. If you 
install multiple devices in a positive ground system and connect them together 
via a Hub and add disconnects/overcurrent protection like normal in the 
ungrounded (this time negative) conductor, any time the breaker opens current 
will try to return to the battery by any means possible, and that means through 
the comm cables. That pretty much takes out all the connected devices, it aint 
pretty.  Therefore, OutBack recommends using double pole breakers, in both 
positive and negative conductors, when using multiple connected 
current-generation devices in positive grounded systems.  Not a perfect 
solution, but it is what it is. 

To answer your question about upgrading older systems, if I were working on my 
mother's house and I had the option, I would not install any of the current 
generation GFDI devices. That might be heresy and not technically Code 
compliant, but on a battery based system I believe it to be the safer option.  
If I had to install one, it could go on either the battery or the array side of 
the controller.  Once there is a better solution I would go back and retrofit 
Mom's system, because it's worth it. 

BTW, OutBack's double and quad GFDI can be used to simultaneously disconnect 
both positive and negative, per your desire. That's another advantage of a 
multi-pole device. 

Phil




On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> William,
> 
> Square D used to make a QO breaker body without the overcurrent trip 
> mechanism. Internally it just had the switch contacts and it was intended for 
> use as a disconnect in locations where overcurrent protection was already 
> provided. The reason I mention this is that the 80-amp PV GFP should not be 
> thought of as overcurrent protection. In fact it would be most appropriate if 
> the 80-amp side of the GFP didn't have an overcurrent trip mechanism. It 
> should only be sensitive to ground faults. If it is sensitive to overcurrent, 
> then it may be activated when there isn't a ground fault and unnecessarily 
> disconnect the negative conductor from ground. 
> 
> Code prohibits the use of a GFP as a disconnect for the PV array. I believe 
> that's because they intend the power system to remain bonded to ground except 
> in the event of ground fault. It follows that the GFP should not be used as a 
> disconnect between the batteries and charge controller either. That's my 
> interpretation. The Code doesn't mention the possibility of putting the GFP 
> between the batteries and charge controller as Outback's instructions for the 
> GFDI require. So, even though Outback's instructions for the GFDI don't 
> show it, put an appropriate breaker for overcurrent protection between the 
> battery and the GFDI, then use wire that's appropriate for the charge 
> controller and overcurrent protection. 
> 
> In my opinion putting the GFDI between the batteries and charge controller is 
> a really bad idea. Nearly all charge controllers warn that the battery should 
> be turned on first and turned off last. It puts much more stress on the 
> charge controller when the battery circuit is opened under load than it does 
> when the PV circuit is opened. In fact opening the battery circuit may well 
> cause the charge controller to fail. Outback warns that if their charge 
> controllers are connected to a positive ground system, the communication port 
> of the charge controller or the Hub may be damaged. If there is a fault in 
> the PV array that causes the GFDI to open, it very well may leave the system 
> in a positive ground condition. 
> 
> When upgrading an older PSDC Outback system which instructions are more 
> appropriate to follow? The ones for the PSDC that show the GFP before the 
> charge controller. Or the newer instructions for the GFDI that show it after 
> the charge controller. Except the the label and instructions the GFP and the 
> GFDI are identical. In case you don't remember, the PSDC came with a 
> schematic showing all possible options attached to the back of the front 
> panel. When it comes time to troubleshoot sometime in the future, that 
> schematic is still going to be there.
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> www.bluemountainsolar.com
> t: 541-568-4882
> 
> On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> 
>> Friends:
>> 
>> Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault detection) 
>> breaker, even for a very small array, we have to use 3AWG CU wire from the 
>> battery buss to the breaker and from the breaker to the FM or MX60.  This 
>> seems like a big hassle for 5 or 10 amps of charging.  A variety of sizes of 
>> GFD breakers would be helpful.
>> 
>> Here is a bigger problem:  GFD breakers don't really work.  All they do is 
>> turn off the charge function in hopes that someone will find the proble

Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Here is Robin's 2 cents worth on this subject

In a PV input circuit to a charge controller that has a 63 or 80 amp 
DC-GFP, it is perfectly legal to use a small wire. That is because you 
will also have the appropriate sized breaker in series with the DC-GFP 
breaker. If you want to use 10AWG wire, you will need a 30 amp DC 
breaker in series with your 63 or 80 amp DC-GFP breaker. The DC-GFP is 
being used as a switch, not as a breaker. I used to use an 80 amp switch 
on the dual Outback DC-GFP rather than a breaker, but it really does not 
matter if it is a breaker or a switch. The real over-current disconnect 
breaker is the device that should determine your wire size.


I'm not sure why Outback changed the DC-GFP to the battery circuit? It 
will work, but you still are required to have another breaker in series 
with it. The NEC intends for the DC-GFP to be installed in the PV circuit.


If you need a 100 amp DC-GFP, then you will need to use a Classic. I 
cannot think of any system today that would require a 100 amp DC-GFP though.


Robin Gudgel

MidNite Solar







On 4/17/2012 11:08 AM, Nathan Stumpff wrote:

Wrenches,

In a job coming up I have a customer with an existing FM60 
controller,  520 watt (!!) array. We are doing a ton of work, 
including adding a 4 kW solar array with Classic 150 charge 
controller. I am trying to figure out how to handle the GFP.


For the Classic, I need a 90 or 100 A output breaker minimum. 80 A 
is not an option. The OutBack dual GFP is 80 A, and so it not an 
option.


Is there a 100 A GFP breaker assembly I have just never seen? Is 
there a way to use the Classic's GFP to run an external relay via 
AUX (to trip the FM60 output breaker at the same time)? Any ideas?


Thanks,
-Nathan

--
Nathan J. Stumpff - Arctic Sun, LLC
NABCEP Ceritified PV Installer #091209-175
nat...@arcticsun-llc.com 
Office: 907/457-1297


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Re: [RE-wrenches] GFP and multiple charge controllers

[Kent Osterberg]

Phil,

While using a dual GFDI to open both positive and negative array 
conductors is the safest thing to do in battery systems, and it is 
clearly compliant with 690.5 to do so, it is not consistent with the 
manufacturer's instructions or the device listing. So that leads back to 
a violation of 110.3(B). I find the present situation very disturbing.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882


On 4/18/2012 8:28 PM, Philip wrote:

Hi Kent,

I wanted to add a little more re positive grounding. OutBack's 
communication structure, like many other manufacturers, is referenced 
to Negative. If you install multiple devices in a positive ground 
system and connect them together via a Hub and add 
disconnects/overcurrent protection like normal in the ungrounded (this 
time negative) conductor, any time the breaker opens current will try 
to return to the battery by any means possible, and that means through 
the comm cables. That pretty much takes out all the connected devices, 
it aint pretty.  Therefore, OutBack recommends using double pole 
breakers, in both positive and negative conductors, when using 
multiple connected current-generation devices in positive grounded 
systems.  Not a perfect solution, but it is what it is.


To answer your question about upgrading older systems, if I were 
working on my mother's house and I had the option, I would not install 
any of the current generation GFDI devices. That might be heresy and 
not technically Code compliant, but on a battery based system I 
believe it to be the safer option.  If I had to install one, it could 
go on either the battery or the array side of the controller.  Once 
there is a better solution I would go back and retrofit Mom's system, 
because it's worth it.


BTW, OutBack's double and quad GFDI can be used to simultaneously 
disconnect both positive and negative, per your desire. That's another 
advantage of a multi-pole device.


Phil




On Apr 18, 2012, at 2:21 PM, Kent Osterberg > wrote:



William,

Square D used to make a QO breaker body without the overcurrent trip 
mechanism. Internally it just had the switch contacts and it was 
intended for use as a disconnect in locations where overcurrent 
protection was already provided. The reason I mention this is that 
the 80-amp PV GFP should not be thought of as overcurrent protection. 
In fact it would be most appropriate if the 80-amp side of the GFP 
didn't have an overcurrent trip mechanism. It /should/ only be 
sensitive to ground faults. If it is sensitive to overcurrent, then 
it may be activated when there isn't a ground fault and unnecessarily 
disconnect the negative conductor from ground.


Code prohibits the use of a GFP as a disconnect for the PV array. I 
believe that's because they intend the power system to remain bonded 
to ground except in the event of ground fault. It follows that the 
GFP should not be used as a disconnect between the batteries and 
charge controller either. That's my interpretation. The Code doesn't 
mention the possibility of putting the GFP between the batteries and 
charge controller as Outback's instructions for the GFDI require. So, 
even though Outback's instructions for the GFDI don't show it, put an 
appropriate breaker for overcurrent protection between the battery 
and the GFDI, then use wire that's appropriate for the charge 
controller and overcurrent protection.


In my opinion putting the GFDI between the batteries and charge 
controller is a really bad idea. Nearly all charge controllers warn 
that the battery should be turned on first and turned off last. It 
puts much more stress on the charge controller when the battery 
circuit is opened under load than it does when the PV circuit is 
opened. In fact opening the battery circuit may well cause the charge 
controller to fail. Outback warns that if their charge controllers 
are connected to a positive ground system, the communication port of 
the charge controller or the Hub may be damaged. If there is a fault 
in the PV array that causes the GFDI to open, it very well may leave 
the system in a positive ground condition.


When upgrading an older PSDC Outback system which instructions are 
more appropriate to follow? The ones for the PSDC that show the GFP 
before the charge controller. Or the newer instructions for the GFDI 
that show it after the charge controller. Except the the label and 
instructions the GFP and the GFDI are identical. In case you don't 
remember, the PSDC came with a schematic showing all possible options 
attached to the back of the front panel. When it comes time to 
troubleshoot sometime in the future, that schematic is still going to 
be there.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com
t: 541-568-4882

On 4/17/2012 6:42 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

Here is a related problem:  If we use an 80 amp GFD (ground fault 
detection) breaker, even for a very small 

Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 5, Issue 113

[William Korthof]

Interesting update I've installed dozens of non-isolated
transformerless inverters
with LADWP customers since those genius inverters first became available
from
Power-One's inverter ancestor, Magnetek. I don't remember ever having a
conflict or
technical issue with an engineer or inspector questioning the suitability
of that class
of inverter, or even looking for the double-insulated solar wire that is
supposed to be
required for the exposed solar wires.

/wk


Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 09:05:24 -0700
> From: "Joel  Davidson" 
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Transformerless inverter reliability
> Message-ID: <96EAA55766654E9C812C769F3412FD7F@JOEL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>reply-type=original
>
> Wrenches,
> Los Angeles Department of Water & Power (LADWP), the largest and most
> influential municipal utility in the US is finally going to allow
> transformerless inverters for residential PV systems. Are there any design,
> installation or reliability issues to consider with the SMA and other
> high-frequency transformerless inverters. Can they be mounted on a hot
> south
> or west wall or do the have to be kept cool in the shade?
> Joel Davidson
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:58:37 -0600
> From: "Dana" 
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out
> Message-ID: <009001cd1be1$67d5aa60$3780ff20$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ditto Excellent service from One stop.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Dana Orzel -  Great Solar Works, Inc -  E - d...@solarwork.com -  V
> 970.626.5253
>
> F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com
>
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
>
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of mac Lewis
> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2012 7:08 AM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out
>
>
>
> Hi Allan,
>
>
>
> I have used the One Stop Cop Shop in Colorado Springs for repairs on an SW
> recently, with success.  They can be contacted at  (719) 495-2740.  I have
> found it has been best for customers to deal directly with them, because
> repairs can vary widely in price, based on what has failed.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 6:32 AM,  wrote:
>
> As I recall, AC IN2 sets the Gen input limit, any load beyond that the
> inverter lights up and makes up the difference. Batt charge amps AC sets
> the
> charge rate (up to the AC IN set point). SWs have been the industry war
> horse for years. And for lots of folks, are still the cat's pajamas
> (especially if they're set up so the defaults work out), but I've been
> replacing gobs of them (Especially Grid Tied). I like Outback only only
> because I'm more familiar with them (and I'm in love with Katy), but Magnum
> seems to have more bells and whistles. I'll need to be heading that way
> PDQ.
> (Just to tune in).
>
>
>
> I think Tekris Power out of NJ still repairs SWs (But not SW Plus?).
>
>
>
> Good luck.
>
>
>
> db
>
>
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564 
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> NABCEP #092907-44
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace Change out
>
> From: "frenergy" 
> Date: Sat, April 14, 2012 9:21 pm
> To: 
>
> Wrenches,
>
>
>
>I have a customer that may be having some issues with the
> reliability of his 11 year old Trace4024.  If my current fix doesn't solve
> the problem, I have suggested having the unit fixed, which I think still
> happens on these puppies. I have also suggested replacing it with either an
> Outback 3524 or a Magnum MS 4024.  He is now running a 1 HP Submersible
> pump
> ala autoformer along with the usual array of  house loads.
>
>
>
>The issue is the inverter accepting and then rejecting the generator
> power, which I have been watching recent comments here regarding this
> issue.
> I have not thoroughly checked out pump wiring (was apparently already done
> by the well/pump guy, whom is reputable), but have checked the output of
> the
> Kohler 8.5 genny and Hz and voltage appear stable with and without load.
>  So
> far I've gone the route of programming in a few less amps on the "battery
> charging" and "AC2 IN" functions.   The inverter seems to be happy with new
> settings, this new programming was just done a few hours ago.
>
>
>
>So this may be a more generic question for those with more
> experience than I: Are both the OB and Magnum inverters considered equally
> capable of replacing the Trace? I guess I'm thinking mainly of that pump,
> but are there other considerations?
>
>
>
>Thanks Folks
>
>
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA  95983
> 530-284-7849/6544 fax
>
> solar powere