Re: [RE-wrenches] TR Inverter Problems
Ray An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel. I have using one on my off grid house for may years. They also have great remote monitoring over the internet. David Katz Sent from my iPhone On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: I couldn't agree more Bob-O Pharmaceutical company? Ethics? Opps. I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what they're even selling these days. Have you seen their website? I can't even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that Solutions for PV systems mumbo jumbo. Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map, is the bottom of the heap now. I like your 3C term. I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain in the a__ ) factor. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago. Bob-O On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Ray, I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Folks: I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had anotherinstaller put in a Xantrex TR inverter. We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places! The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator. You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that: A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent h. B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did) C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads 2nd big hm. I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail..) As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group, ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive:
Re: [RE-wrenches] TR Inverter Problems
I gotta agree with Bobbo on this one. What a hunk of garbage! It has about a 50% failure rate in my experience. I guess that means you've got a 50-50 chance of not having a problem though! Jon Hill solar...@gmail.com 530-559-3781 On Apr 30, 2013, at 4:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze bo...@electronconnection.com wrote: The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago. Bob-O On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: Ray, I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com t: 541-568-4882 On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Folks: I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had anotherinstaller put in a Xantrex TR inverter. We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places! The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator. You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that: A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent h. B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did) C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads 2nd big hm. I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail..) As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group, ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems)
I will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me the same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I decided to install and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in a remote area, and to expect it to actually work. The inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some charge into the batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the charge rate above 8A / 24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface and software to program charge rate, that the default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I recall him going on at length about why that's such a great idea and not interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in fact is a terrible idea. I'm in the middle of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485 interface gear with be but could not get it to work, issues with firmware, serial numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with doing this all over satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few CFLs and a water pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues with CFL's. The DC Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all apart and re-wired. I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly designed as this. Ditto everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another direction. Kevin -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: May 1, 2013 12:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems) In my opinion, based upon personal experience, Apollo is not a company of high integrity, and I would not encourage use of their products. I have kept my mouth shut for too long. About three years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect package to use in my own home, with the understanding that if I liked it I'd use my bully pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my communication private with them - standard stuff. Their inverter was advertised as being configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had, and because many off grid homes were set up this way). I received a split-phase unit; when I pointed this out, I was sent instructions on how to do the internal wiring changes for straight 120. (First red flag: while advertised as either, this may have been the first one tried this way.) Upon boot-up, the inverter worked but could not charge from a generator. Eventually, working with tech support we determined that engineering had put the hall-effect sensing transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was corrected, it still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a replacement unit. I used this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed in an always on mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable failure, but needed the unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement: wouldn't charge. They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had been aware of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He offered me a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I removed the Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator, and all has worked well since then. On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of Apollo's tech support: Herb, As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo equipment. When the fan control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for a bit over a year) failed in an always on at full speed mode, you sent a refurbished replacement, as this failure is not field repairable. The replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and would not charge. The replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday (2nd day air) and also would not charge - different technical issue, same net effect. There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo inverter that prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous minor deficiencies. 1. In my application, with the unit installed indoors, when charging at full capacity from a generator, after about one to two hours the unit shuts down from overheating, even with the fan at full speed. The problem is that the entire inverter shuts down, rather than just the charger. 2. As we have discussed previously, the inverter is incapable of equalizing from my generator, as it leaves EQ mode long before it has completed a programmed cycle. 3. The unit
Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems)
I have had similar experience with Apollo. I have found the config software to be very buggy and difficult to use, and I believe having no way to change parameters on site without a computer with a specialized connector and program is a mistake. On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Kevin Pegg kp...@energyalternatives.cawrote: ** I will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me the same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I decided to install and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in a remote area, and to expect it to actually work. The inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some charge into the batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the charge rate above 8A / 24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface and software to program charge rate, that the default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I recall him going on at length about why that's such a great idea and not interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in fact is a terrible idea. I'm in the middle of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485 interface gear with be but could not get it to work, issues with firmware, serial numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with doing this all over satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few CFLs and a water pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues with CFL's. The DC Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all apart and re-wired. I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly designed as this. Ditto everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another direction. Kevin -Original Message- *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]*On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar *Sent:* May 1, 2013 12:16 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter Problems) In my opinion, based upon personal experience, Apollo is not a company of high integrity, and I would not encourage use of their products. I have kept my mouth shut for too long. About three years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect package to use in my own home, with the understanding that if I liked it I'd use my bully pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my communication private with them - standard stuff. Their inverter was advertised as being configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had, and because many off grid homes were set up this way). I received a split-phase unit; when I pointed this out, I was sent instructions on how to do the internal wiring changes for straight 120. (First red flag: while advertised as either, this may have been the first one tried this way.) Upon boot-up, the inverter worked but could not charge from a generator. Eventually, working with tech support we determined that engineering had put the hall-effect sensing transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was corrected, it still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a replacement unit. I used this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed in an always on mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable failure, but needed the unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement: wouldn't charge. They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had been aware of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He offered me a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I removed the Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator, and all has worked well since then. On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of Apollo's tech support: Herb, As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo equipment. When the fan control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for a bit over a year) failed in an always on at full speed mode, you sent a refurbished replacement, as this failure is not field repairable. The replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and would not charge. The replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday (2nd day air) and also would not charge - different technical issue, same net effect. There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo inverter that prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous minor deficiencies. 1. In my application, with the unit installed indoors, when charging at full capacity from a generator, after about one
