[RE-wrenches] Defective modules
Greetings wrenches, I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp_r=1; I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling his project. First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, what brands? Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is no-name brands? Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film? And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm. Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules
Hilton We have been seeing catastrophic failures with 3C panels here in Panama mostly either No-Name or Re-Branded from a discounter in the USA (who shall remain nameless) The problems seem to occur within the first three years. BTW we don't sell any Chinese 3C panels. We have had some luck with Canadian Solar Tom Duffy Senior Solar Design Engineer [Real-logo-X-195] Toll Free 888-895-8179 t...@thesolar.bizmailto:t...@thesolar.biz Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179 SKYPE: thesolarbiz From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 8:09 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules Greetings wrenches, I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp_r=1; I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling his project. First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, what brands? Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is no-name brands? Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film? And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm. Thanks, Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 inline: image002.png___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?
I find that at least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV buying market really doesn't care what goes on their roof or who puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets too saturated and unable to accommodate much more PV) and they want it cheap. Being in this business for 35 years, I've concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors as far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from manufacturers or integrators. How many of you bother to put anything away to cover future warranty liabilities? Doesn't happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter manufacturer or integrator. On the flip side, the fact that the costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even if mods and inverters have to be replaced at some point in the future, it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg. My theory is that those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are more likely to be left standing in the years to come. But then, look at BP's decision to pull out of the PV sphere several years ago and the Schott group's decision to bail last June. Maybe all bets are off? And note that in that New York Times piece of today: Non-Chinese manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The defective panels installed on the Los Angeles area warehouse, for instance, were made by an American manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the project on the condition that the parties' identities not be disclosed because of a confidential legal settlement. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-d ark-side.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers- dark-side.html?pagewanted=all_r=2 _r=2 Names need to be made public for the good of all concerned. marco From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap? On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not confident that any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the effects of the unsustainable drop in module prices on the global PV industry. It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure. There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes. Better to tell the world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just possibly the shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath: as long as commercial systems are based on short-term third-party financial gain - accelerated depreciation and the 30% federal tax credit - there's no incentive for systems to be built to last, or to cost more than whatever is cheapest up front. Have you reviewed the list of deceased solar companies? https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Rest-in-Peace-The-List-of-Decea sed-Solar-Companies This could turn into quite a rant, so Rant: OFF. We all just need to be careful what we ask for, because we might get it. Allan Allan Sindelar mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder and Chief Technology Officer Positive Energy, Inc. 3209 Richards Lane (note new address) Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ On 5/29/2013 9:01 AM, frenergy wrote: Hilton, I have not been experiencing anything unusual in failure rates.of course I have not caved to the up-front lower cost tease of Chinese PVs and have only sold USA made PVs built by manus in biz for decades. This choice has lost me only a few customers, maybe now they will come back. It seems interesting to me that you would mention 3 Chinese companies as 'first tier'. When I think of first tier I think of companies that have been around for much longer than that. You are absolutely right though, as an industry, we need to identify this problem and deal with it now, like now, lest we go the path of solar thermal in the 80's. Possibly the solar bandwagon has become overloaded? Bill - Original Message - From: Hilton
Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-American crap?
Our only protection at this point is the Wrenches list. If anybody on the list is seeing premature failures, we need to know. You folks have saved my tushy many times in the past. For now, I've stuck mostly with Solar World, and not had problems. I will not be afraid to call any module manu out if I have to, to help save this industry. If the failure rate is high enough, and energy production effected enough, I could see Congress even pulling the 30% tax credit. Tying warranties to nondisclosure agreements is bordering on unethical. I always knew something was fishy with modules selling for under $1/ watt R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: I find that at least out here in Hawaii, a substantial portion of the PV buying market really doesnt care what goes on their roof or who puts it up; they just want it now (before the grid gets too saturated and unable to accommodate much more PV) and they want it cheap. Being in this business for 35 years, Ive concluded that warranties are mostly smoke and mirrors as far as 10 year or longer coverages, whether coming from manufacturers or integrators. How many of you bother to put anything away to cover future warranty liabilities? Doesnt happen in our business, whether a modco, inverter manufacturer or integrator. On the flip side, the fact that the costs of going PV have gone down so much means that even if mods and inverters have to be replaced at some point in the future, it shouldnt cost an arm and a leg. My theory is that those manufacturers who are mostly or wholly owned subsidiaries of larger, deeper pocketed parent companies are more likely to be left standing in the years to come. But then, look at BPs decision to pull out of the PV sphere several years ago and the Schott groups decision to bail last June. Maybe all bets are off? And note that in that New York Times piece of today: Non-Chinese manufacturers have had quality problems as well. The defective panels installed on the Los Angeles area warehouse, for instance, were made by an American manufacturer. A reporter was granted access to the project on the condition that the parties identities not be disclosed because of a confidential legal settlement. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?pagewanted=all_r=2 Names need to be made public for the good of all concerned. marco From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 5:56 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules-Chinese crap? On more than one occasion in the last year or so I have told a potential customer that with the possible exception of Sunpower, and perhaps (vertically-integrated and long-established) Kyocera, I'm not confident that any manufacturer will be still around in 25 years to honor the 25-year warranty that all manufacturers routinely offer. This is also one of my points when I do public presentations (my focus is always on off grid/battery-based applications). It's partly a cautionary note about going for the cheapest price, and the effects of the unsustainable drop in module prices on the global PV industry. It's not just Chinese modules, either. We had BP replace entire arrays of 160s under warranty when 25% showed the familiar hot-spot failure. There is essentially no way to know what's inside of a PV module. The NYTimes article is right on: the emperor has no clothes. Better to tell the world about the naked emperor sooner than later, so that just possibly the shift can begin, from cheapest overall cost-per-watt to something akin to a system that will last. But I'm not holding my breath: as long as commercial systems are based on short-term third-party
[RE-wrenches] Defective modules
Greetings Wrenches, I looked at the article a bit more closely and a crack emerged. The article mentions two Spanish projects that were tested and the modules had a 34% defect rate. I looked at the study (linked in the article) and what they were talking about was thermographic defects - hot spots, not absolute failures. They didn't specify how relatively hot these spots were, either. They noted that the modules by that manufacturer (E, no names mentioned) had a power loss rate over three years that was 0.9% greater than others. None of the modules in the study lost more than 4% in the first three years. No mention of absolute failures. Allan Sindelair's and Jim Duncan's points about vertically integrated companies are good. Better chance of survival and better control over inputs. Hilton -- Hilton Dier III Renewable Energy Design Partner, Solar Gain LLC 453 East Hill Rd. Middlesex, VT 05602 Tel: 802-223-6652 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance
Wrenches, I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic understandings of electrical circuit theory: Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and 4A on negative conductor. I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the circuit. I've noticed this imbalance on several different inverter brands. Has anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this and satisfy my curiosity? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance
Try rotating the meter so the current flows the other way and see if the effect is reversed. You probably have to zero the meter. the current should be the same in every part of the circuit. On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com wrote: Wrenches, I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic understandings of electrical circuit theory: Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and 4A on negative conductor. I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the circuit. I've noticed this imbalance on several different inverter brands. Has anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this and satisfy my curiosity? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance
Hi Corey, Are you sure the meter was zeroed? If the meter was reading 0.5A at rest, then that would happen. On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com wrote: Wrenches, I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic understandings of electrical circuit theory: Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and 4A on negative conductor. I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the circuit. I've noticed this imbalance on several different inverter brands. Has anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this and satisfy my curiosity? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Cordially, *Nick Soleil* *Field Applications Engineer * *Enphase Energy* Mobile: (707) 321-2937 ** *Enphase Commercial Solar.* *Limitless.*http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 * *http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 1420 North McDowell Petaluma, CA 94954 www.enphase.com http://www.enphaseenergy.com/ P: (707) 763-4784 x7267 F: (707) 763-0784 E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com [image: nabcep logo] Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless! .” - William McDonough This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. image002.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Input Current Imbalance
I use a Fluke 36 amp clamp and i have to flip the meter to get the current flow direction right otherwise I always get a difference like that. Carl Hansen On 5/29/2013 6:48 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Try rotating the meter so the current flows the other way and see if the effect is reversed. You probably have to zero the meter. the current should be the same in every part of the circuit. On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com wrote: Wrenches, I recently noticed something that seems to defy one of my basic understandings of electrical circuit theory: Single string input at inverter. Clear skies, full sunlight. With inverter turned on my clamp meter reads (for example) 5A on positive conductor and 4A on negative conductor. I've always assumed that the current should be equal at every point in the circuit. I've noticed this imbalance on several different inverter brands. Has anyone else ever observed this? Can someone offer an explanation for this and satisfy my curiosity? -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
