Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Ray Walters]

Its alright Todd.  I'm actually about as hippie as you get. I started in 
PV in the Peace Corp in Africa in the 80s doing water pumping systems.  
I built a solar adobe with my own hands from my own mud.  Raised my kids 
there.  I built electric vehicles when I realized that our energy habit 
extended beyond our dwelling.  In the long run though, I quit taking my 
self so seriously.  We're all doing what we can.  Even the energy 
monster of the city is actually people living together more 
sustainably.  Just to live off grid on your own piece of land isn't 
sustainable.  How can 8 billion people all live like that? There isn't 
enough land, we have to live together.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:


so sorry list members, this was supposed to be off list.

todd

On Friday, August 16, 2013 8:51pm, toddc...@finestplanet.com said:

"If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for

it, why is it our business to judge them?"

hi ray,

is it judging them? or simply saying:

"i do this work because i believe in trying to make a more sustainable 
world... and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these people 
can afford... i care about what the earth can afford and we already 
have too many people consuming too much and teaching my clients to 
live energy and resource wisely benefits us all."


maybe it is like bob-o said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to 
realize we are all in this together and there is no room for greedy 
sociopaths. mega systems take mega resources. there is no free lunch:


this is a great article:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions

my .o2

todd



On Friday, August 16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters"  said:

> I find its also about the money. If they're expecting a $20k system to
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on. I agree with Daryl that
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and
> fuel. They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels
> on site. If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for
> it, why is it our business to judge them?
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from 
the job
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is 
no such
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good 
lawyer,

> > the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
> > takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached 
for many
> > systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have 
learned that

> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
> > customer.
> >
> > Daryl
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi William,
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep 
up with

> >> load demand
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, 
having too

> >> much RE is a waste because it will
> >> result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
> >> (i.e. water heating).
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity,
> and
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
> >> batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> >> closely as possible.
> >> Hope that helps,
> >> Rgds,
> >>
> 
_

> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED
> >> STATES | Technical Support Representative
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# |
> >> Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site:
> >> www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> >> Livermore, CA 94551
> >>
> >>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> Jay Peltz 
> >> To:
> >> RE-wrenches 
> >> Date:
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >> Sent by:
> >> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> Thx helps a lot.
> >> I can only 

[RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

With all due respect, Ozzie Zehner—cited in the piece that Todd notes below—is 
at least a bit whacked.  Read his entire diatribe of an error-filled book, 
which I have.  Geez…..talk about making condemnatory judgments…most of Zehner’s 
book is pretty much a judgment filled rant.

 

Since when do we as contractors become the Morality, Virtues and Ethics Police 
with our clients?  Sure, if one’s own code and judgment says no to a particular 
client or situation, then walk away.  But to cast aspersions on others who do 
seek to help them and make a sale in the process crosses the line.

 

marco

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 5:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

 

"If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for 

it, why is it our business to judge them?"

 

 

hi ray,

 

is it judging them? or simply saying: 

 

"i do this work because i believe in trying to make a more sustainable world... 
and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these people can afford... i 
care about what the earth can afford and we already have too many people 
consuming too much and teaching my clients to live energy and resource wisely 
benefits us all."

 

maybe it is like bob-o said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to realize we 
are all in this together and there is no room for greedy sociopaths. mega 
systems take mega resources. there is no free lunch:

this is a great article:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions

 

my .o2

 

todd

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Friday, August 16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters"  said:

> I find its also about the money. If they're expecting a $20k system to
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on. I agree with Daryl that
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and
> fuel. They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels
> on site. If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for
> it, why is it our business to judge them?
> 
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
> > the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
> > takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
> > systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
> > customer.
> >
> > Daryl
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi William,
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
> >> load demand
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
> >> much RE is a waste because it will
> >> result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
> >> (i.e. water heating).
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity,
> and
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
> >> batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> >> closely as possible.
> >> Hope that helps,
> >> Rgds,
> >>
> _
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | UNITED
> >> STATES | Technical Support Representative
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# |
> >> Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com | Site:
> >> www.schneider-electric.com/solar | Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> >> Livermore, CA 94551
> >>
> >>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> Jay Peltz 
> >> To:
> >> RE-wrenches 
> >> Date:
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >> Sent by:
> >> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> Thx helps a lot.
> >> I can only say how I do it.
> >> I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances
> and
> >> usually the price differe

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[toddcory]

so sorry list members, this was supposed to be off list.
 
todd
 
 
 
On Friday, August 16, 2013 8:51pm, toddc...@finestplanet.com said:



"If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for 
it, why is it our business to judge them?"
 
 
hi ray,
 
is it judging them? or simply saying: 
 
"i do this work because i believe in trying to make a more sustainable world... 
and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these people can afford... i 
care about what the earth can afford and we already have too many people 
consuming too much and teaching my clients to live energy and resource wisely 
benefits us all."
 
maybe it is like bob-o said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to realize we 
are all in this together and there is no room for greedy sociopaths. mega 
systems take mega resources. there is no free lunch:

this is a great article:
[http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions] 
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions

 
my .o2
 
todd
 


 
 


 
On Friday, August 16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters"  said:



> I find its also about the money.  If they're expecting a $20k system to
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on.  I agree with Daryl that
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and
> fuel.  They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels
> on site.  If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for
> it, why is it our business to judge them?
> 
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
> > the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
> > takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
> > systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
> > customer.
> >
> > Daryl
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi William,
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
> >> load demand
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
> >> much RE is a waste because it will
> >>   result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
> >>   (i.e. water heating).
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity,
> and
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
> >>   batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> >> closely as possible.
> >> Hope that helps,
> >> Rgds,
> >>
> _
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED
> >> STATES  |   Technical Support Representative
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |
> >> Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site:
> >> www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> >> Livermore, CA 94551
> >>
> >>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> Jay Peltz 
> >> To:
> >> RE-wrenches 
> >> Date:
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >> Sent by:
> >> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> Thx helps a lot.
> >> I can only say how I do it.
> >> I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances
> and
> >> usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other.
> >>
> >> Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$.
> >>
> >> Good luck
> >>
> >> Jay
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"
> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jay:
> >>
> >> There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round
> and
> >> one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads
> day
> >> and night.
> >>
> >> One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
> >> One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[toddcory]

"If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for 
it, why is it our business to judge them?"
 
 
hi ray,
 
is it judging them? or simply saying: 
 
"i do this work because i believe in trying to make a more sustainable world... 
and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these people can afford... i 
care about what the earth can afford and we already have too many people 
consuming too much and teaching my clients to live energy and resource wisely 
benefits us all."
 
maybe it is like bob-o said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to realize we 
are all in this together and there is no room for greedy sociopaths. mega 
systems take mega resources. there is no free lunch:

this is a great article:
[http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions] 
http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions
 
 
my .o2
 
todd
 


 
 


 
On Friday, August 16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters"  said:



> I find its also about the money.  If they're expecting a $20k system to
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on.  I agree with Daryl that
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and
> fuel.  They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels
> on site.  If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for
> it, why is it our business to judge them?
> 
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
> > the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
> > takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
> > systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
> > customer.
> >
> > Daryl
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi William,
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
> >> load demand
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
> >> much RE is a waste because it will
> >>   result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
> >>   (i.e. water heating).
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity,
> and
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
> >>   batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> >> closely as possible.
> >> Hope that helps,
> >> Rgds,
> >>
> _
> >>
> >>
> >> Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED
> >> STATES  |   Technical Support Representative
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |
> >> Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site:
> >> www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> >> Livermore, CA 94551
> >>
> >>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:
> >> Jay Peltz 
> >> To:
> >> RE-wrenches 
> >> Date:
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> >> Subject:
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> >> Sent by:
> >> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi William
> >>
> >> Thx helps a lot.
> >> I can only say how I do it.
> >> I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances
> and
> >> usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other.
> >>
> >> Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$.
> >>
> >> Good luck
> >>
> >> Jay
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"
> 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jay:
> >>
> >> There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round
> and
> >> one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads
> day
> >> and night.
> >>
> >> One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
> >> One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water
> >> heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince
> >> them to change appliances.)
> >> One is an animal rescue 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Bob-O Schultze]

Folks,
I've heard lots of good advice on this subject and as an old off-grid system 
designer, energy conservation has long been a field I take seriously. 
Generating power that you wouldn't otherwise need because you refuse to use the 
power wisely is just...  Stupid. Stupid financially and stupid in just about 
any other category I can think of. To quote some redneck (but funny!) comic, 
"You can't fix stupid." Like Todd, I've walked away from big money clients who 
just didn't -and wouldn't- get it. Heresy, I know, in a capitalistic economy. I 
blame my Hippie roots, but I make no apology for them. We am what we am.
That said, I disagree with Eric that excess PV is a waste. At a module price of 
$6.00/Watt, you bet! At $1.50/W or less to the end user these days, not so 
much. I live off-grid and have for 40 years. I have what you might consider to 
be "excess PV" in the air. Ya know, if you don't take it to ridiculous lengths, 
there really ain't no such thing. During the high season, you will have 
electrons coming out your ears. As Jay and others have said, use them! Make hot 
water. Don't need hot water in the summer? Pump some water! Run an evaporative 
cooler. A freakin' water feature. Whatever. Be creative! Make your clients' 
lives funner and maybe make a few bucks at that.
It's in the early Spring and Late Fall that excess PV really pays for itself. 
What's the real cost of an hour of generator time? I reckon it's somewhere 
between $4 and $8/ hour depending on fuel type, size, yada yada. The heavier 
the consumption, the more those sorta sunny or sorta cloudy PV days count.  
Even if you saved just 10% of genny time during those periods, do that math. 
Plus, for whatever that extra PV saves in genny time, the planet thanks you 
-and them. As a side bene, they don't have to listen to the damn thing. A 
feature, sell it!
I also disagree with his suggestion to do things that "minimizes user 
interaction" I strive to MAXIMIZE user interaction! My experience shows me that 
the more the client relates to his/her system, the more reliable it is. That 
goes triple for generators. "Did I just hear the generator start? Damn, I was 
gonna check the oil. Ah well, next time." Ya know?
I totally understand that some folks will just not pay attention no matter how 
logical it is or despite your best efforts to explain that. But you have to 
try. It's an important part of our job and we need to do it. With passion.
Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, but those uninvolved folks will be a thorn in 
your side for a long time. Sooner or later, there is a VERY good chance that 
they will cost you money. Believe it.
Good Luck, bob-O


On Aug 16, 2013, at 2:24 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote:


Hi William, 
In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with load 
demand 
and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too much RE 
is a waste because it will 
 result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion controllers 
can allow the excess energy to be utilized 
 (i.e. water heating). 
Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity, and 
maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the 
 batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with staggered 
start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge 
more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the total 
daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as 
closely as possible. 
Hope that helps, 
Rgds,
_
 

Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED STATES  |  
 Technical Support Representative 
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |   
Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: 
www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, 
CA 94551 


*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 



From:   Jay Peltz 
To: RE-wrenches 
Date:   08/16/2013 02:01 PM
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
Sent by:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org




Hi William 

Thx helps a lot. 
I can only say how I do it. 
I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and 
usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other. 

Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$. 

Good luck 

Jay 



Sent from my iPhone 

On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"  wrote:

Jay: 
  
There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and one 
is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day and 
night. 
  
One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences. 
One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water heaters, AC 
units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince them to change 
appliances.) 
One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads. 
One is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[William Miller]

Friends:

I am a bit surprised at the responses I have gotten on this thread.  I
appreciate the technical advice and I don't mind the polite philosophical
discussion like the one below.  However, I received one reply, fortunately
off-line, that was not very polite, to say the least.

I have been advised to abandon the clients that don't fit someone's criteria
of green living.  I don't think this is appropriate advice, especially if
the adviser does not know what the whole story is. 

For example, one of the aforementioned clients was sold a bill of goods by a
now defunct local installer. He retired, bought the property, moved in with
a generator and then waited way too long for the scam artist to build a
system that would "power everything with the rays of the sun."

Tens of thousands of dollars later the client fired the scammer and asked me
to help as best I could.  He is on a fixed income, he lives with extended
family, the daughter has severe health problems, the son in law is out of
work, etc..  My client is in a tight situation, with no good choices.  

Yes, I could tell the guy f*** you, you don't meet my standards.  But I am
not that kind of person.  I am trying to help the customer get by as best he
can by working as a team.  This, my friends, is the professional and humane
thing to do, and I make no apologies.

Have a nice weekend everyone.

William Miller

PS:  the "good" customers are not necessarily the greenest people, they are
the ones that reduce consumption as best they can, do their homework, trust
me and pay on time.

Wm

 



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [

mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 3:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer, the
best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to takejust one
man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many systems like this,
particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that there is such a thing
as a good solar customer and also a bad solar customer.

Daryl




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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Ray Walters]

Hi Kevin;

Which watering system did you find that worked?  We've been through a 
bunch that were worse than no watering system at all.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/16/2013 5:38 PM, Kevin Pegg wrote:
For either config, a single point battery watering system is ideal, as 
uses a lot of water. Can be automated so the filling system pump runs 
for xx seconds at the start of each absorb cycle. I've had to go 
through a lot of junk & few dry cells to find one system that does 
this reliably.


Kevin Pegg
EA Energy Alternatives Ltd.
British Columbia, Canada.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Ray Walters]

I find its also about the money.  If they're expecting a $20k system to 
perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on.  I agree with Daryl that 
you keep a good record by picking your clients.
On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy customers that don't want 
to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for it both in PV and 
fuel.  They've been excellent long term customers, so I'm not about to 
be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.
I currently have a very energy minded customer that wants an electric 
stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to use any fossil fuels 
on site.  If the customer wants a mega system and is willing to pay for 
it, why is it our business to judge them?


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:

Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
customer.

Daryl




Hi William,
In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
load demand
and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
much RE is a waste because it will
  result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
  (i.e. water heating).
Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity, and
maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
  batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
closely as possible.
Hope that helps,
Rgds,
_


Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED
STATES  |   Technical Support Representative
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |
Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site:
www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
Livermore, CA 94551


*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail




From:
Jay Peltz 
To:
RE-wrenches 
Date:
08/16/2013 02:01 PM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
Sent by:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org



Hi William

Thx helps a lot.
I can only say how I do it.
I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and
usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other.

Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$.

Good luck

Jay



Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller" 
wrote:

Jay:

There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and
one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day
and night.

One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water
heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince
them to change appliances.)
One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and
frugal AC units

I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they
will hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the
best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.

William

PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with
problems.  Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died
because of wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive
battery bank and, at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances.
They complain can't afford both and they have to have the batteries, so
that is what they get.  Repeat every two years.  Sad

Wm


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

Hi William

I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics.

For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so
often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a
extremely expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able
etc

I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure
others as well

Jay

Peltz power.





Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "W

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Kevin Pegg]

Hi William, 
 
I have done many systems in identical situations & share your philosophy. 
Remote communities, work camps, highway maintenance compounds, etc... 
 
I have used two general philosophies on batteries for these systems. 
 
1. Cheap batteries, ie L16's. Cycle them hard and realize they will be dead in 
18-24 months. Keeping them cool is the biggest challenge with multiple cycles a 
day. Special attention to air flow in battery box helps. One site was able to 
config the room so the cold air intake for generator passes through the battery 
bank. Worked quite well. Also good for billable hrs to be replacing batteries 
constantly. 
 
2. Higher quality flat plate 2V cells. Spend more now, shallow cycle them to 
around 60-70% DOD, have the gens set to kick in based on high continual AC 
demand (and shut down when that load abates). Generally speaking the threshold 
for that is 50% of the inverter rating but each site is unique. Some sites I 
have the gen may kick in up to 6x a day, not full cycles. Some sites with 
predictable peaks ie camps have timers to run gen from 6-8am then 5-7pm, to 
coincide with meals. Though I prefer based on AC demand. More flexible to adapt 
to the conditions ie if the site is shut down. 
 
For either config, a single point battery watering system is ideal, as uses a 
lot of water. Can be automated so the filling system pump runs for xx seconds 
at the start of each absorb cycle. I've had to go through a lot of junk & few 
dry cells to find one system that does this reliably. 
 
Pricing wise over 10 years generally works out about the same, but cash flow is 
easier for cheap batteries, they just know they will have to spend a couple 
grand a year on batteries. They are saving 10's of thousands in diesel so still 
works out economically. 
 
Generally speaking, inverter capacity is 50% of generator. Several 50 kW diesel 
/ 30 kW inverter / 100 kWh battery systems out there. A larger system we put in 
16 months ago uses 100 kW diesels, 60 kW inverter, 400 kWh battery storage. 
 
I've worked with every inverter out there, and the SMA Sunny Island does the 
best job of properly charging batteries / and keeping generator runtime as low 
as possible. It can be set to short-charge batteries most of the time, ie 
shortened absorb stage and then every x cycles (defined) it will do a full 
charge. Find that is the very best balance between fuel use / battery life. 
 
Solar PV (or other renewables) are easy add ons. Every kWh from renewables is 
saving diesel. 
 
Hope that is useful. 
 
Kevin Pegg
EA Energy Alternatives Ltd. 
British Columbia, Canada. 
 
 
 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: August 16, 2013 12:49 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist


Jay:
 
There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and one 
is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day and 
night.
 
One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water heaters, AC 
units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince them to change 
appliances.)
One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and frugal 
AC units
 
I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they will 
hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the best I 
can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
 
William
 
PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with problems.  
Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died because of 
wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive battery bank and, at 
the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances.  They complain can't 
afford both and they have to have the batteries, so that is what they get.  
Repeat every two years.  Sad
 
Wm
 
 
  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist


Hi William

I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. 

For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so often 
vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a extremely 
expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able etc

I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure others 
as well

Jay

Peltz power. 





Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller" < will...@millersolar.com> wrote:



Friends:
 
We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems 
where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It is 
obvious that the size of 

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[penobscotsolar]

Honestly, William, in these type of cases I usually walk away from the job
if the customer isn't willing to reduce where possible. There is no such
thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV system. Like a good lawyer,
the best way to have a stellar record is to know which cases to
takejust one man's opinion of course, but we get approached for many
systems like this, particularly in the Caribbean and I have learned that
there is such a thing as a good solar customer and also a bad solar
customer.

Daryl



> Hi William,
> In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with
> load demand
> and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too
> much RE is a waste because it will
>  result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion
> controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
>  (i.e. water heating).
> Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity, and
> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
>  batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with
> staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge
> more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the
> total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as
> closely as possible.
> Hope that helps,
> Rgds,
> _
>
>
> Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED
> STATES  |   Technical Support Representative
> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |
> Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site:
> www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> Livermore, CA 94551
>
>
> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
>
>
>
>
> From:
> Jay Peltz 
> To:
> RE-wrenches 
> Date:
> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM
> Subject:
> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> Sent by:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> Hi William
>
> Thx helps a lot.
> I can only say how I do it.
> I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and
> usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other.
>
> Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$.
>
> Good luck
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller" 
> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
> There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and
> one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day
> and night.
>
> One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
> One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water
> heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince
> them to change appliances.)
> One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
> One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and
> frugal AC units
>
> I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they
> will hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the
> best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
>
> William
>
> PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with
> problems.  Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died
> because of wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive
> battery bank and, at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances.
> They complain can't afford both and they have to have the batteries, so
> that is what they get.  Repeat every two years.  Sad
>
> Wm
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
>
> Hi William
>
> I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics.
>
> For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so
> often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a
> extremely expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able
> etc
>
> I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure
> others as well
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller" 
> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
> We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems
> where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements. It
> is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is
> beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery
> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
>
> These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my
> understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.
> Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run
> time in order to prolong battery life.
>
> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Eric . Bentsen]

Hi William,
In off grid applications, you want to have sufficient RE to keep up with 
load demand 
and only run the generator when RE cannot keep up. However, having too 
much RE is a waste because it will
 result in energy not harvested (if regulating), however, diversion 
controllers can allow the excess energy to be utilized
 (i.e. water heating).
Running the gen up to the bulk level replaces approx 80% of capacity, and 
maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to get the
 batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic gen start capability with 
staggered start voltages allow you to target 50% discharge 
more accurately, and minimizes user interaction. Try to calculate the 
total daily kWhrs and match the demand with RE as 
closely as possible. 
Hope that helps,
Rgds,
_
 


Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED 
STATES  |   Technical Support Representative 
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |   
Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: 
www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., 
Livermore, CA 94551 


*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 




From:
Jay Peltz 
To:
RE-wrenches 
Date:
08/16/2013 02:01 PM
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
Sent by:
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org



Hi William 

Thx helps a lot. 
I can only say how I do it. 
I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and 
usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other. 

Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$. 

Good luck

Jay



Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"  
wrote:

Jay:
 
There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and 
one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day 
and night.
 
One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water 
heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince 
them to change appliances.)
One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and 
frugal AC units
 
I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they 
will hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the 
best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
 
William
 
PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with 
problems.  Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died 
because of wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive 
battery bank and, at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances. 
They complain can't afford both and they have to have the batteries, so 
that is what they get.  Repeat every two years.  Sad
 
Wm
 
 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

Hi William

I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. 

For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so 
often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a 
extremely expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able 
etc

I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure 
others as well

Jay

Peltz power. 





Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller"  
wrote:

Friends:
 
We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems 
where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements. It 
is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is 
beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery 
with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
 
These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my 
understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life. 
Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run 
time in order to prolong battery life.
 
The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high 
battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery 
bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe 
shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage 
window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
 
We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing 
absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage 
start at least once per day allowing full absorption.
 
Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
 
I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I 
throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from t

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Jay Peltz]

Hi William 

Thx helps a lot. 
I can only say how I do it. 
I'll give the client some options, including the change of appliances and 
usually the price difference makes the sale one way or the other. 

Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller loads/$. 

Good luck

Jay



Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller"  wrote:

> Jay:
>  
> There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and 
> one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day 
> and night.
>  
> One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
> One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges,  water heaters, 
> AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince them to change 
> appliances.)
> One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
> One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and 
> frugal AC units
>  
> I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they 
> will hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the 
> best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
>  
> William
>  
> PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with problems.  
> Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died because of 
> wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive battery bank and, 
> at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances.  They complain can't 
> afford both and they have to have the batteries, so that is what they get.  
> Repeat every two years.  Sad
>  
> Wm
>  
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist
> 
> Hi William
> 
> I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. 
> 
> For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so 
> often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a extremely 
> expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able etc
> 
> I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure 
> others as well
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz power. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller"  
> wrote:
> 
>> Friends:
>>  
>> We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems 
>> where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It 
>> is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is 
>> beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery 
>> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
>>  
>> These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my 
>> understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.  
>> Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run 
>> time in order to prolong battery life.
>>  
>> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high 
>> battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery 
>> bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow 
>> cycling isa problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, 
>> i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
>>  
>> We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing 
>> absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start 
>> at least once per day allowing full absorption.
>>  
>> Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
>>  
>> I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I throuroughlyenjoy 
>> and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting.  
>> Thanks in advance.
>>  
>> William Miller
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Change email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
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> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wr

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[William Miller]

Jay:
 
There are four systems in question.  In three the loads are year round and
one is summer only AC loads.  The year round loaded systems have loads day
and night.
 
One is a highway maintenence station with at least 4 residences.
One is a family compound with two homes with electric ranges, water heaters,
AC units (I know its stupid, lord knows I've tried to convince them to
change appliances.)
One is an animal rescue operation with heater loads.
One is a large home with 5 very small, very new, very sophisticated and
frugal AC units
 
I know it is silly to move these loads off-grid, but people do it and they
will hire someone to work on the systems.  It may as well be me, doing the
best I can to use the resources as wisely as possible.
 
William
 
PS:  It always happens like this:  I get a call from a client with problems.
Well, of course their expensive battery bank died and it died because of
wasteful appliances.  The prescription is a new, expensive battery bank and,
at the same time, new, expensive, efficient appliances.  They complain can't
afford both and they have to have the batteries, so that is what they get.
Repeat every two years.  Sad
 
Wm
 
 
  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist


Hi William

I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. 

For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so
often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a
extremely expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able etc

I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure
others as well

Jay

Peltz power. 





Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller" 
wrote:



Friends:
 
We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems
where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It
is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is
beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery
with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
 
These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my
understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.
Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run
time in order to prolong battery life.
 
The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high
battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery
bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow
cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e.
the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
 
We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing
absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start
at least once per day allowing full absorption.
 
Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
 
I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I throuroughlyenjoy
and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting.
Thanks in advance.
 
William Miller
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Jason Szumlanski]

Not to hijack the thread, but I'd like to add that the inverter rating
required for enormous loads can also be beyond practical limits. We are
getting a flood of grid-tie with PV and battery backup requests for whole
house coverage. The reason for the consumer demand is obvious here in
hurricane-prone SW Florida, especially this time of year.

The answer is usually to steer the customer into a critical load system,
still with a sizable battery, and a very large PV array. Theoretically this
could result in similar multiple discharge cycles per day if daytime loads
are significant enough relative to the battery and the PV production is
variable (think air conditioning).

I'll watch this discussion with interest...


Jason Szumlanski

Fafco Solar





On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 1:53 PM, William Miller wrote:

> **
> Friends:
>
> We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems
> where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It
> is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is
> beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery
> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
>
> These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my
> understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.
> Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run
> time in order to prolong battery life.
>
> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high
> battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery
> bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe
> shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage
> window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
>
> We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing
> absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start
> at least once per day allowing full absorption.
>
> Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
>
> I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I
> throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually
> conflilcting.  Thanks in advance.
>
> William Miller
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[Exeltech]

William,

Sounds like the coating on the board wasn't of the best quality.  It reacted 
with the alcohol (which good conformal coatings won't), but has since dried, 
and should be OK.  (The better silicone-based conformal coatings react only 
with acetone, and then very slowly at that.)

Visual appearances aside, as you mentioned .. the circuit board works.  
Congrats.  The powdery appearance won't affect the circuit board or components. 
 However, this is one time where, if after a period of a couple of weeks or so, 
the circuit board continues to work properly and remains glitch-free, I might 
suggest purchasing a can of a quality conformal coating and carefully going 
back over the board (front and back) with a couple of thin layers.

On the other hand .. if it ain't broke

Dan


On Fri, 8/16/13, William  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
 To: "RE-wrenches" 
 Date: Friday, August 16, 2013, 1:48 PM
 
 Friends:
 
 So I tried the experiment below. The board looked pristine
 when I set it out in the sun to dry but one hour later it
 looks terrible!  It is covered top and bottom by a
 white, powdery residue.  I'll get a photo up on my
 website. 
 
 But..  It works  The inverter is cobbled
 together on my tailgate quietly humming. Granted this
 problem has been intermittent all along so I am still
 skeptical. 
 
 If I were to do it again I'd skip the alcohol and dry it
 slowly and carefully. It is amazing how resilient
 electronics can be. I even laundered my Bluetooth. 
 
 I will let you know after I install it if it stop works. 
 
 William
 
 On Aug 15, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Exeltech 
 wrote:
 
 > William,
 > 
 > Urine is conductive, and apparently has formed some
 unwanted electrical pathways between components.  This
 conductivity could easily continue after the board has
 "dried" due to humidity in the air.
 > 
 > If the need is dire, you can try the following:
 > 
 > You will need two 9" x 12" ceramic ("Pyrex" etc.) cake
 pans (or of a size appropriate for the PCB); a gallon of
 *steam distilled* water (not de-ionized, not "purified", but
 >steam distilled<); and some 91% rubbing alcohol (the
 70% variety has too much water content):
 > 
 > 1) Remove the contaminated PC boards from the
 inverter.
 > 
 > 2) If there are no water-sensitive components (where
 water ingress would be problematic), wash (agitate) the
 board gently in a ceramic pan filled with approx 1/2" to 1"
 of *steam distilled* water.  Nothing less.  Water
 depth should be adequate to submerge and cover the affected
 area.   Do this for approximately 10
 minutes.  The objective is to dissolve the
 contaminants.  This can take time, especially if in
 tight areas between components where water doesn't readily
 circulate.
 > 
 > 3) Remove the PCB from the distilled water.
 > 
 > 4) Gently rinse the PCB in another ceramic pan filled
 with sufficient alcohol to at least partially cover the PCB
 components.  The objective here is to displace the
 distilled water.
 > 
 > 5) Put the PCB in a *LIGHTLY* warm oven or a sunny warm
 location.  Allow the alcohol to completely
 evaporate.  This may take time (an hour or more), as
 the alcohol may have entered various tight areas on the PCB
 where air doesn't readily penetrate.
 > 
 > 6) Once dry, reinstall the PCB in the inverter .. and
 hope.
 > 
 > Follow normal precautions for work with AC power and
 for static electricity abatement.  Be wary of any large
 high-voltage capacitors that may have retained some charge.
 > 
 > Also .. more than one PCB may be affected.
 > 
 > 
 > And as always .. do so at your own risk.
 > 
 > Dan Lepinski
 > Industry Veteran
 > 
 > 
 > On Thu, 8/15/13, Allan Sindelar 
 wrote:
 > 
 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
 > To: "RE-wrenches" 
 > Date: Thursday, August 15, 2013, 5:39 PM
 > 
 > 
 > William,
 > 
 > I don't have a definitive answer, but I doubt it's
 either display or chipset; more likely in the boards. The
 chips are EEPROMs that contain programming for the firmware;
 unless there's a bad socket connection from the pee, they
 won't be affected. The display is pretty much self-contained
 within its plastic case, and not where the corrosive pee is
 likely to end up. I'd more suspect circuit board troubles,
 but I can't tell you which ones.
 > 
 > Allan
 > 
 > Allan Sindelar
 > al...@positiveenergysolar.com
 > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 
 > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
 > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
 > Founder and Chief Technology Officer
 > Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM
 > 3209 Richards Lane
 > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
 > 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
 > www.positiveenergysolar.com 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > On 8/15/2013 3:36 PM, William Miller wrote:
 > 
 > Friends:
 > 
 > I had a mouse take up residency in an SW inverter
 (SW4024).
 > 
 > It peed on the top circu

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Jay Peltz]

Hi William

I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics. 

For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just run the genny) so often 
vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense vs cycling a extremely 
expensive battery 4 x day),  vs year round vs what is do able etc

I would be curious to know what some of the parameters are, as I'm sure others 
as well

Jay

Peltz power. 





Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller"  wrote:

> Friends:
>  
> We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems 
> where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It 
> is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is 
> beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery 
> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
>  
> These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my 
> understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.  Since 
> generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run time in 
> order to prolong battery life.
>  
> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high battery 
> start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery bank.  I 
> know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow cycling 
> is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e. the 
> batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
>  
> We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing 
> absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start 
> at least once per day allowing full absorption.
>  
> Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
>  
> I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I throuroughlyenjoy 
> and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting.  
> Thanks in advance.
>  
> William Miller
>  
> ___
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> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[William]

Wrenches:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:  Todd, you can hold the lecture:  I agree with 
you but the repetition is wasting energy.  

William

On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:01 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> "off-grid systems where the loads are enormous,"
>  
> i realize this is not popular now in these days of "solar is so cheap", but i 
> will not work for people who wont conserve or be efficient.
>  
> as we all know, pv contains lots of embedded energy and to my thinking... 
> having it power waste is simply greenwashing... so the "race to the bottom" 
> will have to happen without my help.
> i start every job (on or off grid) with an energy audit. the result is 
> radically lower consumption levels, more conscious customers, a smaller 
> system (so less resource use and less economic investment). this yields a 
> win-win for the customer and planet. with propane/wood powering the water and 
> space heating loads (and sometimes refrigeration), line drying laundry... 
> generally the maximum consumption i see is in the 5 to 6 kWh/day area.
>  
> around here, with our seasonal precipitation it is nearly impossible to do 
> off grid without generator use in the winter. here again, conservation helps 
> as it reduces the overall load, battery cycling (and wear) and generator use.
>  
> i realize you were asking about battery cycling, but with lower consumption 
> profiles, this becomes less of an issue.
>  
> thats my "old school" .02
>  
> todd
>  
>  
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[toddcory]

"off-grid systems where the loads are enormous,"
 
i realize this is not popular now in these days of "solar is so cheap", but i 
will not work for people who wont conserve or be efficient.
 
as we all know, pv contains lots of embedded energy and to my thinking... 
having it power waste is simply greenwashing... so the "race to the bottom" 
will have to happen without my help.

i start every job (on or off grid) with an energy audit. the result is 
radically lower consumption levels, more conscious customers, a smaller system 
(so less resource use and less economic investment). this yields a win-win for 
the customer and planet. with propane/wood powering the water and space heating 
loads (and sometimes refrigeration), line drying laundry... generally the 
maximum consumption i see is in the 5 to 6 kWh/day area.
 
around here, with our seasonal precipitation it is nearly impossible to do off 
grid without generator use in the winter. here again, conservation helps as it 
reduces the overall load, battery cycling (and wear) and generator use.
 
i realize you were asking about battery cycling, but with lower consumption 
profiles, this becomes less of an issue.
 
thats my "old school" .02
 
todd
 
 
 
 
On Friday, August 16, 2013 10:53am, "William Miller"  
said:



Friends:
 
We have been  receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems 
where the loads  are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It is 
obvious that  the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is beyond 
what is  practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery with PV 
assist,  or PV assist for short.
 
These systems will  cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my 
understanding that the  extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.  Since 
generator run is  expected, we are willing to increase generator run time in 
order to prolong  battery life.
 
The parameters I  suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high battery 
start  parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery bank.  I  
know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow cycling is 
a  problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e. the 
batteries  achieve absorption at least once per day.
 
We know a load  start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing 
absorption  period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start at 
least once  per day allowing full absorption.
 
Has anyone else  considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
 
I am looking forward  to a spirited discussion as usual.  I throuroughlyenjoy 
and beneift from  them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting.  
Thanks in  advance.
 
William  Miller
 


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[William]

Friends:

So I tried the experiment below. The board looked pristine when I set it out in 
the sun to dry but one hour later it looks terrible!  It is covered top and 
bottom by a white, powdery residue.  I'll get a photo up on my website. 

But..  It works  The inverter is cobbled together on my tailgate 
quietly humming. Granted this problem has been intermittent all along so I am 
still skeptical. 

If I were to do it again I'd skip the alcohol and dry it slowly and carefully. 
It is amazing how resilient electronics can be. I even laundered my Bluetooth. 

I will let you know after I install it if it stop works. 

William

On Aug 15, 2013, at 4:33 PM, Exeltech  wrote:

> William,
> 
> Urine is conductive, and apparently has formed some unwanted electrical 
> pathways between components.  This conductivity could easily continue after 
> the board has "dried" due to humidity in the air.
> 
> If the need is dire, you can try the following:
> 
> You will need two 9" x 12" ceramic ("Pyrex" etc.) cake pans (or of a size 
> appropriate for the PCB); a gallon of *steam distilled* water (not 
> de-ionized, not "purified", but >steam distilled<); and some 91% rubbing 
> alcohol (the 70% variety has too much water content):
> 
> 1) Remove the contaminated PC boards from the inverter.
> 
> 2) If there are no water-sensitive components (where water ingress would be 
> problematic), wash (agitate) the board gently in a ceramic pan filled with 
> approx 1/2" to 1" of *steam distilled* water.  Nothing less.  Water depth 
> should be adequate to submerge and cover the affected area.   Do this for 
> approximately 10 minutes.  The objective is to dissolve the contaminants.  
> This can take time, especially if in tight areas between components where 
> water doesn't readily circulate.
> 
> 3) Remove the PCB from the distilled water.
> 
> 4) Gently rinse the PCB in another ceramic pan filled with sufficient alcohol 
> to at least partially cover the PCB components.  The objective here is to 
> displace the distilled water.
> 
> 5) Put the PCB in a *LIGHTLY* warm oven or a sunny warm location.  Allow the 
> alcohol to completely evaporate.  This may take time (an hour or more), as 
> the alcohol may have entered various tight areas on the PCB where air doesn't 
> readily penetrate.
> 
> 6) Once dry, reinstall the PCB in the inverter .. and hope.
> 
> Follow normal precautions for work with AC power and for static electricity 
> abatement.  Be wary of any large high-voltage capacitors that may have 
> retained some charge.
> 
> Also .. more than one PCB may be affected.
> 
> 
> And as always .. do so at your own risk.
> 
> Dan Lepinski
> Industry Veteran
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8/15/13, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Thursday, August 15, 2013, 5:39 PM
> 
> 
> William,
> 
> I don't have a definitive answer, but I doubt it's either display or chipset; 
> more likely in the boards. The chips are EEPROMs that contain programming for 
> the firmware; unless there's a bad socket connection from the pee, they won't 
> be affected. The display is pretty much self-contained within its plastic 
> case, and not where the corrosive pee is likely to end up. I'd more suspect 
> circuit board troubles, but I can't tell you which ones.
> 
> Allan
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM
> 3209 Richards Lane
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
> www.positiveenergysolar.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 8/15/2013 3:36 PM, William Miller wrote:
> 
> Friends:
> 
> I had a mouse take up residency in an SW inverter (SW4024).
> 
> It peed on the top circuit board and chewed on one wire, at least that we 
> found.  We have had this happen before and solved the problem by cleaning and 
> drying. 
> 
> 
> This time the mouse pee was minimal and cleaned off easily and what appeared 
> to be throughly.  However we can't get the inverter to work reliably.  
> Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not.  The overload light is solid 
> and the error light flashes.  The controls work on some menus and not on 
> others.  If I shut the inverter down it won't come back on. 
> 
> I take off the cover, look around, connect and disconnect ribon cables and it 
> comes back on, only to go out a day later.
> 
> I have a spare display and chipset.  I am considering changing out one then 
> the other.
> 
> Any adivce would be appreciated.
> 
> As always, I am very grateful to all of you.  It seems I have been receiving 
> more advice than I have been giving lately so I look forwards to the 
> opportuntiy to reciprocate.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> William Miller
> 
> ___

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[Ray Walters]

Hi William;

One thing to consider is that you want to cycle the batteries at least 
20% DOD.  If you look at the cycle charts for regular Lead acid 
batteries, the total KWH you can get from a battery for its lifetime is 
fairly equal from around 20% DOD to 80% DOD. (basically you can get 
twice the cycles at half the discharge rate)  However this nice linear 
relationship goes out at the ends (over 80% DOD, or less than 20% DOD) 
You just don't get your money's worth cycling deep cycle batteries at 
very shallow depths.
 Another consideration is that it is very inefficient to charge a 
battery completely with generator power.  The last half of the 
absorption phase is at fairly low current for fairly long time periods.  
You should have the genny shut down when its efficiency gets low  (might 
be less than 25% of rated capacity, depends on the generator)
My basic design philosophy is to not cycle the bank more than 50%, but 
have the generator shut off once the total  watts  (charging + loads - 
PV ) drops below a certain threshold.  Also having the generator kick in 
when loads exceed a certain discharge rate (say C20) is important too.  
If they discharge at higher rates, you won't have your design amp hours 
because of the Puekert's exponent.  (basically: batteries have less 
capacity at high discharge rates)
Last point, I don' think its reasonable to expect the system to reach 
full charge every day,  I'd shoot for once a week, and save a bunch of 
fuel.  Deep cycle batteries can sit at less than full charge for  a 
couple of weeks before the lead sulfate starts crystallizing into a 
non-disolvable form.  In this case, you want a balance of fuel and 
generator run time vs battery life.
I have a large system like this that the batteries have already outlived 
the generator, so that's probably not exactly optimum. I've since 
starting using smaller battery banks, also because batteries have gone 
up in price.
For these types of designs, I find software like PV Design Pro to be 
very useful.  It can characterize the total % of energy from PV, as well 
as model an hourly basis of the system operation over an average weather 
year.  You still have to ride herd on software simulations, as they can 
turn out some pretty stupid designs if you're not careful.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/16/2013 11:53 AM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:
We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid 
systems where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid 
requirements.  It is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to 
power these loads is beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these 
systems Generator/battery with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my 
understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery 
life.  Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase 
generator run time in order to prolong battery life.
The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high 
battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the 
battery bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't 
believe shallow cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of 
the voltage window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption at least 
once per day.
We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, 
curtailing absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a 
battery votage start at least once per day allowing full absorption.

Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I 
throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them, even thought the advice is 
usually conflilcting.  Thanks in advance.

William Miller


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[RE-wrenches] PV Assist

[William Miller]

Friends:
 
We have been receiving a flurry of requests for design of off-grid systems
where the loads are enormous, relative to normal off-grid requirements.  It
is obvious that the size of PV and battery arrays to power these loads is
beyond what is practical.  We have dubbed these systems Generator/battery
with PV assist, or PV assist for short.
 
These systems will cycle batteries multiple times per day.  It is my
understanding that the extra battery cycels will shorten battery life.
Since generator run is expected, we are willing to increase generator run
time in order to prolong battery life.
 
The parameters I suggest are an aggressive load start and a very high
battery start parameter.  This will prevent deep discharge of the battery
bank.  I know shallow discharge is not the norm, but I don't believe shallow
cycling is a problem as long is it as at the top of the voltage window, i.e.
the batteries achieve absorption at least once per day.
 
We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated run time, curtailing
absorption period, but we are assuming there will be a battery votage start
at least once per day allowing full absorption.
 
Has anyone else considered these issues, and what conclusions did you make
 
I am looking forward to a spirited discussion as usual.  I throuroughlyenjoy
and beneift from them, even thought the advice is usually conflilcting.
Thanks in advance.
 
William Miller
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[Exeltech]

Hello Jay,

>  For those of us not so adventurous, how well would electrical spray Cleaner 
> work? 

Good question.  I've never used contact/electrical cleaner for this type of 
task.  My guess is, it might work .. but only marginally if at all.  Cleaners 
are solvents intended to remove oxidation and organic films (think "oily", as 
in waxy buildup, etc).  Some cleaners also include a silicone or other residual 
lubricant, which would tend to seal in the remaining contaminents to the 
circuit board.  Not good.  Urine, though organic, is water-based, and may or 
may not dissolve in the spray cleaner.  This is why I recommended the distilled 
water wash, followed by the alcohol rinse.

You could try some spray cleaner for this task  and report the results to the 
group.I'm aways open to adding information to my knowledge base.  :)

(Finding a cooperative mouse may be problematic  but I'm sure you can come 
up with alternatives.)

Dan


On Fri, 8/16/13, jay peltz  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
 To: "RE-wrenches" 
 Date: Friday, August 16, 2013, 10:39 AM
 
 Hi Dan
 
 Amazing about what can be done!
 
 For those of us not so adventurous, how well would electrical spray Cleaner 
work?  I have used it before to clean a SW that was in a room with a leaky 
diesel generator. The inside of the inverter was coated in soot, which coupled 
with sea air, well not such a good combo. 

 It did work after the cleaning though. 
 
 Thanks
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power
 
 
 
 
 On Aug 16, 2013, at 5:11 AM, Exeltech 
 wrote:
 
 > Bill,
 > 
 > My short answer is .. if things work after all this .. I wouldn't recommend 
 > doing anything to the circuit board after cleaning it.  Instead, I'd take 
 > steps to keep the mice from ever getting into the inverter again.
 > 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[jay peltz]

Hi Dan

Amazing about what can be done!

For those of us not so adventurous, how well would electrical spray 
Cleaner work?
I have used it before to clean a SW that was in a room with a leaky diesel 
generator. The inside of the inverter was coated in soot, which coupled with 
sea air, well not such a good combo. 
It did work after the cleaning though. 

Thanks

Jay

Peltz power




On Aug 16, 2013, at 5:11 AM, Exeltech  wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> My short answer is .. if things work after all this .. I wouldn't recommend 
> doing anything to the circuit board after cleaning it.  Instead, I'd take 
> steps to keep the mice from ever getting into the inverter again.
> 
> :
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[RE Ellison]

Thanks Dan,
That was an interesting read I thoroughly plan to never have to do that 
anything that I or my customers own !

Bob ellison


Bob Ellison

On Aug 16, 2013, at 8:11 AM, Exeltech  wrote:

> Bill,
> 
> My short answer is .. if things work after all this .. I wouldn't recommend 
> doing anything to the circuit board after cleaning it.  Instead, I'd take 
> steps to keep the mice from ever getting into the inverter again.
> 
> 
> Long answer...
> 
> Normally, circuit boards will have been coated with a conformal protective 
> material at the time of manufacture.  For those who may not know what 
> "conformal coating" is, it's a clear polymer liquid (usually silicone based) 
> that's applied to circuit boards, typically as a spray (like spray paint).  
> When dry, it forms a very durable polymer layer that's highly protective 
> against moisture, dirt, and moisture.  It's also very electrically resistant, 
> and is accepted by Underwriters Laboratories and other Nationally Recognized 
> Testing Labs as an insulating material.  However, unless the circuit board is 
> literally dunked in the liquid conformal material (not done for a variety of 
> reasons), there are always going to be areas on the circuit board (under 
> components, or the back-side of integrated circuit pins away from our view) 
> that are not covered by the conformal coating.
> 
> Even when conformal coating is well applied, urine can and will still sit on 
> top of the coating and form a conductive path to otherwise unprotected areas 
> of pins and leads.  This is what I suspect happened here.  Done properly, a 
> distilled water / alcohol bath combination will dissolve and remove these 
> unwanted conductive paths without harming the conformal coating.  A concern I 
> still have in this: there may be components on the circuit board that would 
> be damaged or otherwise affected by the water and/or alcohol.  Examples would 
> be transformers, switches, relays, etc..
> 
> Good quality conformal coating materials aren't affected by water or alcohol, 
> so this procedure is safe to use for cleaning purposes as long as none of the 
> electronic parts themselves would be affected.  Parts that have very small 
> distances between their pins, such as microprocessors and similar, are the 
> components most subject to unwanted conductive paths.
> 
> Another aspect of the circuit board to consider are where "through-hole" 
> parts are installed, such as relays or other components have leads that 
> penetrate through the circuit board.  Such parts can be very difficult to 
> fully seal with conformal coating because the spray simply doesn't penetrate 
> shadowed or hidden locations.
> 
> One still must be cautious in cleaning a circuit board, as it's possible the 
> water could penetrate the circuit board edges if it's not completely sealed, 
> and either liquid may affect parts on the circuit board itself.  As 
> mentioned, this procedure is only if the need is dire .. and replacement 
> isn't an easy option.
> 
> I'd also be concerned with static electricity issues.  I'd wager few if 
> anyone in the Wrench kingdom has the necessary static abatement protections 
> in place.  Static electricity can and does permanently damage components, and 
> you'll never know it happened - except the circuit no longer works.  Doesn't 
> take carpet either.  Did you know you can walk across a tile floor and build 
> up a static charge?  (The voice of experience here!)
> 
> 
> Bill .. to your question:
> Where would you apply the conformal coating?
> 
> First .. if it were me, and I were lucky enough to recover from a mouse-pee 
> episode, I'd not use Krylon for this purpose.  EVER.  In fact, I'd be 
> hesitant to use anything at all.  Instead, I'd take steps t protect the 
> hole(s) where the mouse got in so this never happens again.  If it's a vent, 
> use metal window screen cut to size, and attach the screen on the inside of 
> the enclosure with a quality silicone adhesive, making sure not to create any 
> electrical or other hazards in the process.  (Note I said "silicone 
> adhesive", not "silicone caulk" or "silicone seal".  There's a difference.)  
> Use fine-mesh screen.  Anything larger wont' work.  Mice are better than 
> Houdini at getting in and out of tight spaces.  (I've seen a mouse flatten 
> its body and squeeze through a louvered vent with less than 3/8 inch spacing.)
> 
> If you're still totally bent on trying to increase the protection on the 
> circuit board, use a genuine conformal material from a company such as MG 
> Chemicals, Tech Spray, or others.  It will be certified to a UL Standard for 
> the purpose.  Expect to pay $20-30 for a spray-paint sized can, and it won't 
> be available from any hardware store.  Buy it from Mouser, Digi-Key, or 
> similar sources.  Get the version with the UV "tattle-tale" built in.  That 
> way, when you spray the board, you can take it outside in bright sunlight and 
> see where the spray exists -

Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[Exeltech]

Bill,

My short answer is .. if things work after all this .. I wouldn't recommend 
doing anything to the circuit board after cleaning it.  Instead, I'd take steps 
to keep the mice from ever getting into the inverter again.


Long answer...

Normally, circuit boards will have been coated with a conformal protective 
material at the time of manufacture.  For those who may not know what 
"conformal coating" is, it's a clear polymer liquid (usually silicone based) 
that's applied to circuit boards, typically as a spray (like spray paint).  
When dry, it forms a very durable polymer layer that's highly protective 
against moisture, dirt, and moisture.  It's also very electrically resistant, 
and is accepted by Underwriters Laboratories and other Nationally Recognized 
Testing Labs as an insulating material.  However, unless the circuit board is 
literally dunked in the liquid conformal material (not done for a variety of 
reasons), there are always going to be areas on the circuit board (under 
components, or the back-side of integrated circuit pins away from our view) 
that are not covered by the conformal coating.

Even when conformal coating is well applied, urine can and will still sit on 
top of the coating and form a conductive path to otherwise unprotected areas of 
pins and leads.  This is what I suspect happened here.  Done properly, a 
distilled water / alcohol bath combination will dissolve and remove these 
unwanted conductive paths without harming the conformal coating.  A concern I 
still have in this: there may be components on the circuit board that would be 
damaged or otherwise affected by the water and/or alcohol.  Examples would be 
transformers, switches, relays, etc..

Good quality conformal coating materials aren't affected by water or alcohol, 
so this procedure is safe to use for cleaning purposes as long as none of the 
electronic parts themselves would be affected.  Parts that have very small 
distances between their pins, such as microprocessors and similar, are the 
components most subject to unwanted conductive paths.

Another aspect of the circuit board to consider are where "through-hole" parts 
are installed, such as relays or other components have leads that penetrate 
through the circuit board.  Such parts can be very difficult to fully seal with 
conformal coating because the spray simply doesn't penetrate shadowed or hidden 
locations.

One still must be cautious in cleaning a circuit board, as it's possible the 
water could penetrate the circuit board edges if it's not completely sealed, 
and either liquid may affect parts on the circuit board itself.  As mentioned, 
this procedure is only if the need is dire .. and replacement isn't an easy 
option.

I'd also be concerned with static electricity issues.  I'd wager few if anyone 
in the Wrench kingdom has the necessary static abatement protections in place.  
Static electricity can and does permanently damage components, and you'll never 
know it happened - except the circuit no longer works.  Doesn't take carpet 
either.  Did you know you can walk across a tile floor and build up a static 
charge?  (The voice of experience here!)


Bill .. to your question:
Where would you apply the conformal coating?

First .. if it were me, and I were lucky enough to recover from a mouse-pee 
episode, I'd not use Krylon for this purpose.  EVER.  In fact, I'd be hesitant 
to use anything at all.  Instead, I'd take steps t protect the hole(s) where 
the mouse got in so this never happens again.  If it's a vent, use metal window 
screen cut to size, and attach the screen on the inside of the enclosure with a 
quality silicone adhesive, making sure not to create any electrical or other 
hazards in the process.  (Note I said "silicone adhesive", not "silicone caulk" 
or "silicone seal".  There's a difference.)  Use fine-mesh screen.  Anything 
larger wont' work.  Mice are better than Houdini at getting in and out of tight 
spaces.  (I've seen a mouse flatten its body and squeeze through a louvered 
vent with less than 3/8 inch spacing.)

If you're still totally bent on trying to increase the protection on the 
circuit board, use a genuine conformal material from a company such as MG 
Chemicals, Tech Spray, or others.  It will be certified to a UL Standard for 
the purpose.  Expect to pay $20-30 for a spray-paint sized can, and it won't be 
available from any hardware store.  Buy it from Mouser, Digi-Key, or similar 
sources.  Get the version with the UV "tattle-tale" built in.  That way, when 
you spray the board, you can take it outside in bright sunlight and see where 
the spray exists - and more importantly - where it doesn't.  The tattle-tale 
shows up as a blue-ish or purple-ish color when viewed under ultraviolet light. 
 Before spraying, cover all connectors, connector pins, and sockets.  You 
*don't* want to insulate those.  Following the manufacturer's instructions, 
lightly and evenly coat one side of the board with the conformal 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[James Jefferson Jarvis]

On 8/16/2013 2:38 AM, Bill Loesch wrote:


Dan, et al,

Once the board has been cleaned sufficiently that the inverter is no
longer operating intermittently and your "hope" has been realized, when
would you apply a field conformal coating? Would you choose/recommend
something better than Krylon clear spray?


While Dan's cleaning advice is good ... I would not bother with 
conformal coating.


In my experience, it is nearly impossible to get a board actually clean 
of mouse urine. It soaks into the fiberglass laminate. If you conformal 
coat it, the traces will be eaten from underneath anyhow.


I would bite the bullet and replace the board or the inverter. Otherwise 
resign yourself for supporting a board that will likely get sicker and 
sicker at the most inopportune times.


I've even run a mouse urine board through a water wash machine, like 
what is used during the assembly of printed wiring board, and it wasn't 
able to get the mouse urine washed away. The water wash machine has 
multiple stages of washing and the appropriate chemicals ... but it 
couldn't get the soaked material out of the fiberglass.


re: conformal

I would use a purpose made conformal coating. McMaster-Carr stocks a 
silicone coating (6801A37) and a acrylic (6801A39) coating. Or Mouser 
carries Tech-Spray brand coatings.


I would further look for a conformal coating that can be removed or 
reworked through. Most conformal coatings cannot. Given he situation, I 
suspect that the board will require future attention and that calls for 
a coating that you can remove or rework through. Especially with the 
silicone conformal coating, it is almost impossible to remove or rework 
through.


For what it is worth and Good luck,


--
-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
www.aprsworld.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW

[Bill Loesch]

Dan, et al,

Once the board has been cleaned sufficiently that the inverter is no 
longer operating intermittently and your "hope" has been realized, when 
would you apply a field conformal coating? Would you choose/recommend 
something better than Krylon clear spray?


Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

On 15-Aug-13 6:33 PM, Exeltech wrote:

William,

Urine is conductive, and apparently has formed some unwanted electrical pathways between 
components.  This conductivity could easily continue after the board has 
"dried" due to humidity in the air.

If the need is dire, you can try the following:

You will need two 9" x 12" ceramic ("Pyrex" etc.) cake pans (or of a size appropriate for the 
PCB); a gallon of *steam distilled* water (not de-ionized, not "purified", but >steam distilled<); 
and some 91% rubbing alcohol (the 70% variety has too much water content):

1) Remove the contaminated PC boards from the inverter.

2) If there are no water-sensitive components (where water ingress would be problematic), 
wash (agitate) the board gently in a ceramic pan filled with approx 1/2" to 1" 
of *steam distilled* water.  Nothing less.  Water depth should be adequate to submerge 
and cover the affected area.   Do this for approximately 10 minutes.  The objective is to 
dissolve the contaminants.  This can take time, especially if in tight areas between 
components where water doesn't readily circulate.

3) Remove the PCB from the distilled water.

4) Gently rinse the PCB in another ceramic pan filled with sufficient alcohol 
to at least partially cover the PCB components.  The objective here is to 
displace the distilled water.

5) Put the PCB in a *LIGHTLY* warm oven or a sunny warm location.  Allow the 
alcohol to completely evaporate.  This may take time (an hour or more), as the 
alcohol may have entered various tight areas on the PCB where air doesn't 
readily penetrate.

6) Once dry, reinstall the PCB in the inverter .. and hope.

Follow normal precautions for work with AC power and for static electricity 
abatement.  Be wary of any large high-voltage capacitors that may have retained 
some charge.

Also .. more than one PCB may be affected.


And as always .. do so at your own risk.

Dan Lepinski
Industry Veteran


On Thu, 8/15/13, Allan Sindelar  wrote:

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mouse pee in the SW
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Thursday, August 15, 2013, 5:39 PM
  
  
William,


I don't have a definitive answer, but I doubt it's either display or chipset; 
more likely in the boards. The chips are EEPROMs that contain programming for 
the firmware; unless there's a bad socket connection from the pee, they won't 
be affected. The display is pretty much self-contained within its plastic case, 
and not where the corrosive pee is likely to end up. I'd more suspect circuit 
board troubles, but I can't tell you which ones.
  
Allan
 
Allan Sindelar

al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.com





On 8/15/2013 3:36 PM, William Miller wrote:
  
Friends:
 
I had a mouse take up residency in an SW inverter (SW4024).


It peed on the top circuit board and chewed on one wire, at least that we 
found.  We have had this happen before and solved the problem by cleaning and 
drying.
  


This time the mouse pee was minimal and cleaned off easily and what appeared to 
be throughly.  However we can't get the inverter to work reliably.  Sometimes 
it works and sometimes it does not.  The overload light is solid and the error 
light flashes.  The controls work on some menus and not on others.  If I shut 
the inverter down it won't come back on.

I take off the cover, look around, connect and disconnect ribon cables and it 
comes back on, only to go out a day later.

I have a spare display and chipset.  I am considering changing out one then the 
other.

Any adivce would be appreciated.
 
As always, I am very grateful to all of you.  It seems I have been receiving more advice than I have been giving lately so I look forwards to the opportuntiy to reciprocate.
 
Sincerely,
 
William Miller


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