Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[Exeltech]

Dan (Brown),

Some suggestions.


#1:
In the unlikely chance the website might suddenly go away, get screen shots of 
everything ASAP.  Download and keep copies of each page of the website.  This 
can be done using the "Save Page As" option (or equivalent) under "File".  Save 
all downloaded pages in a separate directory, and make copies onto a thumb 
drive.  Do not edit or alter the page content in any manner.

#2:
The scammers allege they're a "Corporation".  Check with your state's 
Corporation Commission (or equivalent).  Claiming "corporate" status when they 
aren't incorporated is generally an actionable offense by the State.   At a 
minimum, they can be forced to cease using the "Corporation" aspect.  Action of 
this nature will be a matter of public record.  Subsequently, you could then 
submit an FOI application to the State to find out whom the State served.

#3:
Since you ARE incorporated, this is an infringement on your registered company 
name with the State of Vermont.  This too is actionable by the State, but may 
require attorney participation on your part.

#4:
Dan FInk's comment pertaining to [in essence] the perpetrators' likely action 
to attempt to force, cajole, or extort you into buying the domain is very 
plausible.


Sad as it is .. you're going to have to invest some time and money to get a 
handle on this.



Good Luck.


Dan (Lepinski)



Ever get the impression there are too many "Dans" involved in this thread?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[Solar]

I'd love a battery crimper, but a little out of my price range. 

I think a hand crimper will do. 

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:
> 
> hydraulic or long handle bog difference in price
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2014 8:32 AM, "Solar"  wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> I am looking for recommendations for a battery cable crimper.  I'd love to 
>> get one with the dies built in, but the ones I've looked at are only for 
>> non-fine strand wire.
>> 
>> Suggestions?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jesse
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[RE Ellison]

The other nice thing about the bench mount you can get a benchmark cutter also

I put mine on a 2 x 12 about 4 foot long you can carry it and work with and on 
the back of the truck and it's a lot harder for it to grow legs than just a 
hand Cutter or crimper

Not bulletproof but at least it is there were you need it, not back at the shop!


Bob Ellison

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:
> 
> Crimpers:
> http://www.quickcable.com/products.php?pageId=534
> 
> I believe MagnaLugs are all okay with fine stranded cable. The heavy wall MCM 
> lugs are made specifically for fine stranded and a single die set covers all 
> sizes.
> 
> Get a ratcheting type and/or bench mounted model if you are doing lots of 
> cables.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Solar  wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> I am looking for recommendations for a battery cable crimper.  I'd love to 
>> get one with the dies built in, but the ones I've looked at are only for 
>> non-fine strand wire.
>> 
>> Suggestions?
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jesse
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[RE Ellison]

Dan,

Here is what i could find searching the phone number, it might be spoofed.

 

Good luck,

Bob Ellison

 

  479-208 Free Phone Number
Information. Who called you from ... *

www.cmrdesign.net/exchange/4792086 - Proxy -
 Highlight 

4792086701: Data Avail. Van Buren, AR: CRAWFORD: 53,000: CELL PHONE:
8/31/2003: 0: 4792086374: Data Avail. Van Buren, AR: CRAWFORD: 53,000: CELL
PHONE: 8/31/2003: 0 ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 7:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

 

Dan,

That's freaky! I would have known right away this wasn't yoursfar too
corporate looking ;-)

Seriously, here's the registration info I found.I bolded what I think
might be a help to you:



Registrant Email: speaderva...@yahoo.com
Registry Admin ID: 
Admin Name: Christian Crawford
Admin Organization: Foxfire Energy Corporation
Admin Street: 141 Howland Rd 141
Admin City: Brattleboro
Admin State/Province: VT
Admin Postal Code: 05301
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.4792086701
Admin Phone Ext: 
Admin Fax: 
Admin Fax Ext: 
Admin Email: speaderva...@yahoo.com
Registry Tech ID: 
Tech Name: Hostmaster ONEANDONE
Tech Organization: 1&1 Internet Inc.
Tech Street: 701 Lee Rd.
Tech City: Chesterbrook
Tech State/Province: PA
Tech Postal Code: 19087
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.8774612631
Tech Phone Ext: 
Tech Fax: +1.6105601501
Tech Fax Ext: 
Tech Email: hostmas...@1and1.com





Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
IREC Certified Master TrainerT for Small Wind Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com
 
Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors
June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin
www.smallwindconference.com
 
Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
 


On 4/30/2014 7:16 PM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:

 

Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from NABCEP that our
website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com) has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable
energy organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com). Seems they copied
our web site info and posted it on their site with minor modification. a
google search of their business location puts them on a dirt road in the
middle of no where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a
Philippino sounding call center to a gent who identifies him self as Dutch.
I want his Juggler for a chew toy for my Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone
else ran into this, and what might be our recourse. Is this the result of
the end of Net Neutrality? 

 

Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard to build up our
industry's credibility. Irks me to see some scumbag cubicle dweller trying
to cash in.

 

Advice? Thanks db

 

Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44



 






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No virus found in this message.
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Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3931/7413 - Release Date: 04/29/14

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4570 / Virus Database: 3931/7413 - Release Date: 04/29/14

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[Dan Fink]

Scary stuff, Dan --
I have had 100% success with cease and desist letters regarding copyrighted
stolen web content from my sites. Letter #2 from a lawyer has always done
the trick with recalcitrant thieves.
However I see that your website does not have a copyright notice on the
bottom of every page, the thieves web page does, so essentially they are
claiming ownership of your material. I would have your webmaster put this
in *immediately.*
Was NABCEP willing to file a cease-and-desist, as the thieves claim they
are NABCEP certified?
I would also contact their internet service provider.
I can't figure out how they mean to make money with this other than
Facebook.there are no ads, etc. I suspect they are going to try and
pressure you to buy the domain name from themthis has happened to me
before.
At least they didn't steal your photos.
Thanks Michael for leaving this thread up - websites are an important part
of the RE business.

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[Tom Elliot]

Dan,

I’ve seen this before and you could take it as a bit of a compliment, though a 
backhanded one.  I’ve seen this before with other successful commercial sites, 
most specifically one called shipmyvehicle.com that is the best worldwide 
vehicle shipping service.  They were totally hijacked, like you were, but with 
a few fake photos inserted into the site.  It’s usually done by hackers 
operating from numerous overseas locations, often in former East Bloc 
countries.  I worked with that site to help document it to the FBI but after 
all the work we did to document it the FBI could do nothing about it.  
Basically the field office in their area told them that by the time they start 
investigating the outfits just shut down in one country and open up in another, 
seamlessly.   

Sad to say there is likely nothing you can do to introduce your dog to his 
jugular.

Tom

From: d...@foxfire-energy.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 1:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website


Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from NABCEP that our 
website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com) has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable 
energy organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com). Seems they copied our 
web site info and posted it on their site with minor modification. a google 
search of their business location puts them on a dirt road in the middle of no 
where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a Philippino sounding 
call center to a gent who identifies him self as Dutch. I want his Juggler for 
a chew toy for my Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this, and 
what might be our recourse. Is this the result of the end of Net Neutrality? 


Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard to build up our 
industry's credibility. Irks me to see some scumbag cubicle dweller trying to 
cash in.

Advice? Thanks db

Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44







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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3931/7421 - Release Date: 04/30/14
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[Roy Butler]

  
  
Dan,
  
  That's freaky! I would have known right away this wasn't
  yoursfar too corporate looking ;-)
  
  Seriously, here's the registration info I found.I bolded what
  I think might be a help to you:
  
  Registrant Email: speaderva...@yahoo.com
Registry Admin ID: 
Admin Name: Christian Crawford
Admin Organization: Foxfire Energy Corporation
Admin Street: 141 Howland Rd 141
Admin City: Brattleboro
Admin State/Province: VT
Admin Postal Code: 05301
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.4792086701
Admin Phone Ext: 
Admin Fax: 
Admin Fax Ext: 
Admin Email: speaderva...@yahoo.com
Registry Tech ID: 
Tech Name: Hostmaster ONEANDONE
Tech Organization: 1&1 Internet Inc.
Tech Street: 701 Lee Rd.
Tech City: Chesterbrook
Tech State/Province: PA
Tech Postal Code: 19087
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.8774612631
Tech Phone Ext: 
Tech Fax: +1.6105601501
Tech Fax Ext: 
Tech Email: hostmas...@1and1.com

  Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
IREC Certified Master Trainer™ for Small Wind Installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors
June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin
www.smallwindconference.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.



  On 4/30/2014 7:16 PM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:




Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from
  NABCEP that our website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com)
  has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable energy
  organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com).
  Seems they copied our web site info and posted it on their
  site with minor modification. a google search of their
  business location puts them on a dirt road in the middle of no
  where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a
  Philippino sounding call center to a gent who identifies him
  self as Dutch. I want his Juggler for a chew toy for my
  Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this, and
  what might be our recourse. Is this the result of the end of
  Net Neutrality? 



Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard
  to build up our industry's credibility. Irks me to see some
  scumbag cubicle dweller trying to cash in.


 Advice? Thanks db


Dan Brown
  Foxfire Energy Corp.
  Renewable Energy Systems
  (802)-483-2564
  www.Foxfire-Energy.com
  NABCEP #092907-44


  

  
  
  
  
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[RE-wrenches] Hijacked Website

[dan]

Merry Mud season everyone, We just got the heads up from NABCEP that our website (www.Foxfire-Energy.com) has been hijacked by a fictitious renewable energy organization (www.Foxfire-Energy-Corporation.com). Seems they copied our web site info and posted it on their site with minor modification. a google search of their business location puts them on a dirt road in the middle of no where like three towns down. a phone call brings you to a Philippino sounding call center to a gent who identifies him self as Dutch. I want his Juggler for a chew toy for my Weinerdog. Just wondering if anyone else ran into this, and what might be our recourse. Is this the result of the end of Net Neutrality? Sorry Micheal if this is a off subject. We've worked hard to build up our industry's credibility. Irks me to see some scumbag cubicle dweller trying to cash in. Advice? Thanks dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Ray Walters]

Thanks Phil;

That's the best resource yet.  Actual choices in length of the ferules, 
insulated or non insulated, and not afraid to talk about Class K 
stranded wire ratings, etc.

Maybe I'll get some sleep tonii-iight..

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 1:29 PM, Phil Forest wrote:
We use ferrules for fine stranded wire at terminals. 
Www.ferrulesdirect has it all.


Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Ray Walters > wrote:


NSI has sleeves rated for fine strand specifically made for this 
application.  They seem to be around $1 for the 2/0 version

Here's a supplier.
http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/fs030-flexible-sleeve-657-i-d.html
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2014 12:25 PM, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line 
an email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0.


Miller Solar

On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters > wrote:


What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers 
are just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of 
fine stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand 
ratings.  I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does 
not mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex 
cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I 
torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this:

Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
breakers in Trace DC boxes?


Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the 
flex cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, 
all you get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of 
solar, but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming 
to be a solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just 
walk in and get the parts I need for a Code compliant 
installation.  If you sell the inverter and the cable, you really 
should stock the connector.


On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper 
than pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring 
compartment.  Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...


And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).

Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
installation (per 110.3(B)).

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
ends says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of

horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
Cobra X flex cable.

While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech

support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
for flex or fine stranded cable.

Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.

Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.

 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the

crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
wire, right in the connection:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

[Glenn Burt]

Why yes they are copper, thanks for asking.

 

Well the list would not let me attach the cut sheet – so here is a link I
hope works…

http://www.greaves-usa.com/pdf/Shoo-Pin%20Color%20Sheet.pdf

 

 

-Glenn

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Positive Energy, Inc.
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

 

William, Ray and Wrenches,
You're not alone on this issue. We faced it and did not come up with a good
resolution nearly two years ago. This is a Wrenches writeup from June 2012
that never got posted: 

 Four Sunny Islands and one Radian Outback 

Fine Stranded Cable and Sunny Island Inverters 

 

This is a brief overview of a project that involved the desire to use fine
stranded UL compliant Cobra X-Flex Cable for the battery 48 Volt DC input on
a quad stack Sunny Island system. Traditionally we have installed standard
doubled up #2 THWN for each Positive and Negative terminals on the Sunny
Island. A single 2/0 THWN cable is very difficult to install because of the
tight bends through the 1½”   metal flex conduit, and to get away from
doubling up #2 we came up with the idea of using fine stranded cable. 

 

This system involved four Sunny Island inverters and one Outback Radian
inverter. In this case we actually downsized from the standard 175 amp to
smaller 125 Amp disconnects for the 5kW Sunny Island inverters. This was
done because having an additional Outback inverter in the system meant that
we would need to install a whole system shunt in order for the master Sunny
Island to properly maintain Battery SOC. The shunt we intended to use was
rated 1000 Amps, but not rated for continuous duty. With four 125 Amp
breakers for the Sunny Islands and two 175 Amp breakers for the Radian this
would total 850 Amps as the highest potential for the 1000 Amp shunt. This
also meant that we could use single 1/0 fine stranded conductors for the DC
inputs to the Sunny Islands. We went ahead and ordered around 70 feet of
fine stranded 1/0 Cobra X-Flex. [Followup note: the 125A DC breakers have
worked well with no nuisance tripping in this residential application.] 

 

The bright idea of using fine stranded cables quickly became more of a
headache then an actual great solution to small conduit and difficult
bending radiuses. It stated clearly in the Sunny Island installation manual
that the terminals were not rated for fine stranded cable. Thus we decided
to go ahead and post the subject on the Wrenches List and the solution to
the problem is easily solved by installing a ferrule. I browsed through some
of the links supplied by the Wrenches list of companies that manufactured
ferrules. I found 1/0 ferrules that were about 7/8” long to fit into the
terminal lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. I began looking at the outside
dimension of the ferrules and the inside dimension of the terminal lugs and
it turned out that the ferrule was slightly too large by around 1/64” to fit
into the terminal lug before tightening down the terminal screw. I had never
installed a ferrule before and assumed that it just meant sliding the wire
into the ferule and sliding it into the terminal lug and tightening down the
terminal screw. My assumption that the ferrule would not actually fit into
the terminal lug may have been totally wrong due to the fact that once
crimped it may have actually fit anyway. Without a proper ferrule crimper
and with the thought that the ferrule would not fit I began looking for
another solution to the problem.

 

I started browsing the Ilsco catalog and found pigtail adapters as the
solution to the issue. These adaptors would crimp onto the fine stranded
cable and had a pigtail of coarse strands that would go into the terminal
lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. Thinking that I had found the solution
to the problem I went ahead and scheduled the electrical aspect of the
system and on site gave my right hand man the instructions for the pigtail
adapter installation. During the installation he suddenly came to me and
said that he could not install the pigtail adaptors because on the inverter
it said “use copper conductors only” and the tails of the pigtail adapters
were aluminum strands. I then looked directly at the terminal lugs on the
inverters and the actual rating stamp was listed as CU9AL. I thought that as
the terminal lugs are rated for aluminum, there should be no problem. I
decided to call SMA tech support to find out if I could indeed use the
aluminum pigtail adaptors. I spoke with Bill of SMA and sent him text photos
of the pigtail adaptors and also sent him a photo of the terminal lug
showing that it was rated for aluminum. He said that aluminum conductors
have a lot higher resistance and voltage loss, thus the inverter would not
be able to maintain accurate SOC for the batteries. I then suggested that as
the pigtail adaptors w

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Phil Forest]

We use ferrules for fine stranded wire at terminals. Www.ferrulesdirect has it 
all. 

Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> NSI has sleeves rated for fine strand specifically made for this application. 
>  They seem to be around $1 for the 2/0 version
> Here's a supplier.  
> http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/fs030-flexible-sleeve-657-i-d.html
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 4/30/2014 12:25 PM, William Miller wrote:
>> Ray:
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line an email 
>> contact and part number I need to order for 4/0. 
>> 
>> Miller Solar
>> 
>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
>> 
>>> What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are just 
>>> not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine stranded 
>>> cable is increasing dramatically.
>>> ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand ratings.  I 
>>> have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does not 
>>> mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
>>> BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex cable 
>>> directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I torqued down, and 
>>> didn't like, which lead to all this:
>>> Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
>>> How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann breakers 
>>> in Trace DC boxes?
>>> 
>>> Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex cable, 
>>> and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all you get is that 
>>> "deer in the headlights" stare.
>>> I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, but 
>>> now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a solar 
>>> expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk in and get the 
>>> parts I need for a Code compliant installation.  If you sell the inverter 
>>> and the cable, you really should stock the connector.
>>> 
>>> On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as confirmed 
>>> by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than pin adapters, 
>>> and don't take up extra room in the wiring compartment.  Now I just have to 
>>> find some TODAY.  Ugh...
>>> 
>>> And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.  
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:
 There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
 conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
 equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).
 
 Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
 Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
 installation (per 110.3(B)).
 
 -Glenn
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
 Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors
 
 Hi ray
 
 As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
 wire. 
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
 ends says its UL for fine stranded. 
 
 I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters. 
 (Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
 ferrules)
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power
 
 
>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All;
>> 
>> In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of
> horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
> Cobra X flex cable.
> While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech
 support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
 for flex or fine stranded cable.
> Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.
 Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
> From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on 
> pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the
 crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
 sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
 found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
 wire, right in the connection:
> http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
> n-connectors/coppe

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Ray Walters]

I saw this last night, but I have plenty of lugs from Quick cable that 
work fine.  It was the sleeve to go into a mechanical connection that 
isn't listed.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 12:56 PM, Dave Click wrote:

This may be useful:
http://www.cobrawire.com/lugs/lugs.php?cat=xflex




On 2014/4/30, 14:25, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line 
an email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0.


Miller Solar

On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters > wrote:


What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers 
are just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of 
fine stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand 
ratings.  I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does 
not mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex 
cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I 
torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this:

Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
breakers in Trace DC boxes?


Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex 
cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all 
you get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of 
solar, but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to 
be a solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk 
in and get the parts I need for a Code compliant installation.  If 
you sell the inverter and the cable, you really should stock the 
connector.


On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper 
than pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring 
compartment.  Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...


And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).

Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
installation (per 110.3(B)).

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
ends says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of

horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
Cobra X flex cable.

While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech

support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
for flex or fine stranded cable.

Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.

Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.

 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the

crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
wire, right in the connection:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
01.pdf

So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail
adapters are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)

On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no

adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated 

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Ray Walters]

NSI has sleeves rated for fine strand specifically made for this 
application.  They seem to be around $1 for the 2/0 version

Here's a supplier.
http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/fs030-flexible-sleeve-657-i-d.html

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 12:25 PM, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line an 
email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0.


Miller Solar

On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters > wrote:


What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are 
just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine 
stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand 
ratings.  I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does 
not mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex 
cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I 
torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this:

Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
breakers in Trace DC boxes?


Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex 
cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all 
you get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, 
but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a 
solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk in 
and get the parts I need for a Code compliant installation.  If you 
sell the inverter and the cable, you really should stock the connector.


On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than 
pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring 
compartment.  Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...


And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).

Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
installation (per 110.3(B)).

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
ends says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of

horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
Cobra X flex cable.

While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech

support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
for flex or fine stranded cable.

Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.

Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.

 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the

crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
wire, right in the connection:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
01.pdf

So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail
adapters are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)

On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no

adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?

And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug t

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Dave Click]

This may be useful:
http://www.cobrawire.com/lugs/lugs.php?cat=xflex




On 2014/4/30, 14:25, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line an 
email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0.


Miller Solar

On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters > wrote:


What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are 
just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine 
stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand 
ratings.  I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does 
not mention this issue, I had to call tech support.
BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex 
cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I 
torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this:

Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
breakers in Trace DC boxes?


Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex 
cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all 
you get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, 
but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a 
solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk in 
and get the parts I need for a Code compliant installation.  If you 
sell the inverter and the cable, you really should stock the connector.


On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than 
pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring 
compartment.  Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...


And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).

Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
installation (per 110.3(B)).

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
ends says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of

horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
Cobra X flex cable.

While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech

support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
for flex or fine stranded cable.

Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.

Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.

 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the

crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
wire, right in the connection:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
01.pdf

So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail
adapters are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)

On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no

adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?

And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs:
http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html
I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman

breakers with that stiff a wire.  I've cracked breaker cases
before..that's why 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[Jason Szumlanski]

Crimpers:
http://www.quickcable.com/products.php?pageId=534

I believe MagnaLugs are all okay with fine stranded cable. The heavy wall
MCM lugs are made specifically for fine stranded and a single die set
covers all sizes.

Get a ratcheting type and/or bench mounted model if you are doing lots of
cables.

Jason Szumlanski


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Solar  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for recommendations for a battery cable crimper.  I'd love to
> get one with the dies built in, but the ones I've looked at are only for
> non-fine strand wire.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jesse
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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>
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> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
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Check out participant bios:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[Jerry Shafer]

hydraulic or long handle bog difference in price
On Apr 30, 2014 8:32 AM, "Solar"  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I am looking for recommendations for a battery cable crimper.  I'd love to
> get one with the dies built in, but the ones I've looked at are only for
> non-fine strand wire.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jesse
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
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[RE-wrenches] Battery cable crimper

[Solar]

Hello all,

I am looking for recommendations for a battery cable crimper.  I'd love to get 
one with the dies built in, but the ones I've looked at are only for non-fine 
strand wire.  

Suggestions?

Thanks!

Jesse






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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[William Miller]

Ray:

Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line an email 
contact and part number I need to order for 4/0. 

Miller Solar

> On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are just 
> not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine stranded 
> cable is increasing dramatically.
> ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand ratings.  I 
> have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does not mention this 
> issue, I had to call tech support.
> BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex   
> cable directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I torqued down, 
> and didn't like, which lead to all this:
> Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
> How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann breakers in 
> Trace DC boxes?
> 
> Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex cable, 
> and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all you get is that 
> "deer in the headlights" stare.
> I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, but now 
> that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a solar expert/ 
> distributor, I really should be able to just walk in and get the parts I need 
> for a Code compliant installation.  If you sell the inverter and the cable, 
> you really should stock the connector.
> 
> On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as confirmed by 
> Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than pin adapters, and 
> don't take up extra room in the wiring compartment.  Now I just have to find 
> some TODAY.  Ugh...
> 
> And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.  
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:
>> There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
>> conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
>> equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).
>> 
>> Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
>> Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
>> installation (per 110.3(B)).
>> 
>> -Glenn
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors
>> 
>> Hi ray
>> 
>> As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
>> wire. 
>>  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
>> ends says its UL for fine stranded. 
>> 
>> I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters. 
>> (Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
>> ferrules)
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power
>> 
>> 
 On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
 
 Hi All;
 
 In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of
>>> horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
>>> Cobra X flex cable.
>>> While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech
>> support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
>> for flex or fine stranded cable.
>>> Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.
>> Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
>>> From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on 
>>> pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the
>> crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
>> sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
>> found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
>> wire, right in the connection:
>>> http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
>>> n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
>>> I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
>>> http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
>>> 01.pdf
>>> 
>>> So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
>>> The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail 
>>> adapters are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)
>>> 
>>> On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no
>> adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
>> 690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?
>>> And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
>>> For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs: 
>>> http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.ht

[RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation

[Ray Walters]

What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are 
just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine 
stranded cable is increasing dramatically.
ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand ratings.  
I have their catalogs in hand.  Even the SMA manual does not mention 
this issue, I had to call tech support.
BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex cable 
directly.  Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I torqued down, 
and didn't like, which lead to all this:

Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all.
How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann 
breakers in Trace DC boxes?


Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex 
cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all you 
get is that "deer in the headlights" stare.
I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, 
but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a solar 
expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk in and get the 
parts I need for a Code compliant installation.  If you sell the 
inverter and the cable, you really should stock the connector.


On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as 
confirmed by Schneider.  Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than 
pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring compartment.  
Now I just have to find some TODAY.  Ugh...


And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote:

There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded
conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required
equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC).

Thomas & Betts is the manufacturer I use.
Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is  necessary to produce a compliant
installation (per 110.3(B)).

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded
wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and
ends says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with
ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of

horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with
Cobra X flex cable.

While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech

support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated
for flex or fine stranded cable.

Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.

Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.

 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on
pigtail adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the

crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over
sized cables into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've
found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the
wire, right in the connection:

http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio
n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03
01.pdf

So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail
adapters are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)

On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no

adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles
690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?

And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs:
http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html
I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman

breakers with that stiff a wire.  I've cracked breaker cases
before..that's why the X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.

Thanks for your help,

--
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Shade for Inverters on a flat roof

[Jerry Shafer]

We have used vented cabinets with doors opening to the front. everything is
inside have had them inplace for several years
On Apr 30, 2014 1:39 AM, "Allen Frishman"  wrote:

> Benn,
> micro inverters are an option although there is no shade issues on this
> project so I would like to keep the inverter cost down.   What I mean by
> zero lot is that the building is connected to the buildings on both sides,
> there is no back yard space and the front wall is exposed to the street so
> hanging inverters on an outside wall is not an option.Thanks for the
> feedback - I just might go with the micro inverters.
>
>
> *Al Frishman*
> AeonSolar
>
> *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell*
> *(888) 460-2867 <%2%29%20460-2867>*
> *www.aeonsolar.com *
>
> On Apr 29, 2014, at 6:26 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote:
>
> Al,
> Not sure what you mean by "zero lot building"?
> Can you design/construct a ballasted "wall/structure" at the back of the
> array that could accommodate the inverters and load center on its
> 'out-of-the-sun' side.  It could be a covered/vented cabinet.
>   Are micro-inverters an option?  That would make it easier to
> design/construct such a wall.
>
> Benn
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Allen Frishman wrote:
>
>> Hey Wrenchers,
>> I am looking for suggestions for building a shade structure on a flat
>> roof for inverters and load center.There is no bulk heads on this flat
>> roof and it is a zero lot building so there is no exterior wall available
>> to hang the inverters.   No space inside the building either so the roof is
>> the only option.Any suggestions?   I will be using a ballast racking
>> system so the array will not provide any shade.
>>
>> All ideas welcome and appreciated!
>>
>> *Al Frishman*
>> AeonSolar
>>
>> *(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell*
>> *(888) 460-2867 <%2%29%20460-2867>*
>> *www.aeonsolar.com *
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

[Ray Walters]

I get my cable and lugs from Quick Cable but I could not find the fine 
strand UL listing.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 4/30/2014 8:09 AM, jay peltz wrote:

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded wire.
  Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and ends 
says its UL for fine stranded.

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters.
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power



On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

Hi All;

In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of horrors, 
I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with Cobra X flex 
cable.
While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech 
support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated for 
flex or fine stranded cable.
Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.  Grainger 
had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
 From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on pigtail 
adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the crimp side 
of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over sized cables into 
smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance)
The best I've found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed 
around the wire, right in the connection:
http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf

So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail adapters 
are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)

On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no 
adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles 
690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?
And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs: 
http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html
I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman breakers 
with that stiff a wire.  I've cracked breaker cases before..that's why the 
X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.

Thanks for your help,

--
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

[James Jefferson Jarvis]

What I have done, and it passed muster of my AHJ, is to use a dual wire 
aluminum set screw lug (see picture) that is connected to the SI lug 
with two round copper 1/2" diameter "slugs". The cables from the battery 
then attach to the bolt hole on the set screw lug using a ring terminal. 
That allowed me to land MTW wire. There is plenty of room in the wire 
compartment and it actually looks pretty good.


Unfortunately I didn't take a picture, or I would post it here for 
hall-of-shame purposes. But the AHJ liked it and it has been working for 
a year now. It certainly cost me a whole bunch of time tempered my 
interest in Sunny Island inverters.



--
-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
www.aprsworld.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Jason Szumlanski]

Usually it is repairing work of others who miscalculate the required
rating. When it gets really cold (that means 0ºF here), we start to get
calls with blown fuses. We do have our fair share of unexplained blown
string fuses, and I attribute most of those issues to extreme heat in
enclosures that are highly exposed to the sun.

Jason Szumlansk
​i​



On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Drake <
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> wrote:

>  Inverter ground fault fuses certainly do blow.  What is causing your
> string fuses to go?
>
>
> At 10:17 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote:
>
> "​
>
> An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a DC string fuse"
>
> I completely disagree. We have never, not once, had to reset a tripped
> inverter output circuit AC breaker that I know of, but have replaced many
> dozens of DC string fuses and GFCI fuses in inverters, most of the time for
> undiagnosed failures.​ There is a reason we keep a good supply of 1A,
> 15A, and 20A Littlefuses in a drawer here.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
> Â
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Drake 
> wrote:
>  There are good reasons to want to put AC combiners under modules, but
> some reasons not to want to.
> ​​
> An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a DC string fuse, due to the
> surge availability. As a PV system is designed to last a minimum of 25
> years, the installer might not be the one to sort out problems decades down
> the line.
>
> A strategy I prefer would be to use a SolaDeck as a junction box. Run
> small wires to a convenient AC combiner location.
>
>
> At 12:43 PM 4/29/2014, you wrote:
>
> Dave
>
> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System
> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily
> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental
> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only
> needs to be accessible.Â
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click 
> wrote:
> I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in the
> SolaDeck hidden under a module.
> 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
> (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and
> shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle
> of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more
> than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of
> the following applies:
> ...
> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they
> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>
> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have
> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable
> module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that
> this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
> DKC
>
> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> 690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were
> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
> 690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box, but
> I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many.
> My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself
> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers
> themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a
> Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>  On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>
> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria­run for the
> border†sentiment is coming from.
>
> Â
> 690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
> be readily accessible.
> Â
> 690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
> wiring system.
> Â
> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
> Â
> Bill Brooks.
> Â
> Â
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
> 
> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Ray Walters
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
> Â
> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the cover
> plate of the combiner box, too?
> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll
> actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.Â
>
>
>
> R.Ray
> Walters
>
>
>
> CTO, Solarray,
> Inc
>
>
>
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>
>
>
> Licensed Master

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
William, Ray and Wrenches,
  You're not alone on this issue. We faced it and did not come up
  with a good resolution nearly two years ago. This is a Wrenches
  writeup from June 2012 that never got posted: 
  
  
 Four
  Sunny Islands and one Radian
  Outback 
Fine
  Stranded Cable and Sunny Island Inverters 
 
This
  is a brief overview of a
  project that involved the desire to use fine stranded UL
  compliant Cobra X-Flex
  Cable for the battery 48 Volt DC input on a quad stack Sunny
  Island system.
  Traditionally we have installed standard doubled up #2 THWN
  for each Positive
  and Negative terminals on the Sunny Island. A single 2/0 THWN
  cable is very
  difficult to install because of the tight bends through the
  1½”   metal
  flex conduit, and to get away from doubling up #2 we came up
  with the
  idea of using fine stranded cable. 
 
This system
  involved four Sunny
  Island inverters and one Outback Radian inverter. In this case
  we actually
  downsized from the standard 175 amp to smaller 125 Amp
  disconnects for the
  5kW Sunny Island inverters. This was done because having an
  additional Outback
  inverter in the system meant that we would need to install a
  whole system shunt
  in order for the master Sunny Island to properly maintain
  Battery SOC. The
  shunt we intended to use was rated 1000 Amps, but not rated
  for continuous
  duty. With four 125 Amp breakers for the Sunny Islands and two
  175 Amp breakers
  for the Radian this would total 850 Amps as the highest
  potential for the 1000
  Amp shunt. This also meant that we could use single 1/0 fine
  stranded
  conductors for the DC inputs to the Sunny Islands. We went
  ahead and ordered
  around 70 feet of fine stranded 1/0 Cobra X-Flex. [Followup
  note: the 125A DC breakers have worked well with no nuisance
  tripping in this residential application.] 
 
The bright idea of using
  fine stranded cables quickly
  became more of a headache then an actual great solution to
  small conduit and
  difficult bending radiuses. It stated clearly in the Sunny
  Island installation
  manual that the terminals were not rated for fine stranded
  cable. Thus we
  decided to go ahead and post the subject on the Wrenches List
  and the solution
  to the problem is easily solved by installing a ferrule. I
  browsed through some
  of the links supplied by the Wrenches list of companies that
  manufactured
  ferrules. I found 1/0 ferrules that were about 7/8” long to
  fit into the
  terminal lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. I began looking
  at the outside
  dimension of the ferrules and the inside dimension of the
  terminal lugs and it
  turned out that the ferrule was slightly too large by around
  1/64” to fit into
  the terminal lug before tightening down the terminal screw. I
  had never
  installed a ferrule before and assumed that it just meant
  sliding the wire into
  the ferule and sliding it into the terminal lug and tightening
  down the
  terminal screw. My assumption that the ferrule would not
  actually fit into the
  terminal lug may have been totally wrong due to the fact that
  once crimped it
  may have actually fit anyway. Without a proper ferrule crimper
  and with the
  thought that the ferrule would not fit I began looking for
  another solution to
  the problem.
 
I started
  browsing the Ilsco
  catalog and found pigtail adapters as the solution to the
  issue. These adaptors
  would crimp onto the fine stranded cable and had a pigtail of
  coarse strands
  that would go into the terminal lugs of the Sunny Island
  Inverters. Thinking
  that I had found the solution to the problem I went ahead and
  scheduled the
  electrical aspect of the system and on site gave my right hand
  man the instructions
  for the pigtail adapter installation. During the installation
  he suddenly came
  to me and said that he could not install the pigtail adaptors
  because on the
  inverter it said “use copper conductors only” and the tails of
  the pigtail
  adapters were aluminum strands. I then looked directly at the
  terminal lugs on
  the inverters and 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Drake]

Inverter ground fault fuses certainly do 
blow.  What is causing your string fuses to go?



At 10:17 AM 4/30/2014, you wrote:

"​
An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a DC string fuse"

I completely disagree. We have never, not once, 
had to reset a tripped inverter output circuit 
AC breaker that I know of, but have replaced 
many dozens of DC string fuses and GFCI fuses in 
inverters, most of the time for undiagnosed 
failures.​ There is a reason we keep a good 
supply of 1A, 15A, and 20A Littlefuses in a drawer here.


Jason Szumlanski


Â


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Drake 
<drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> 
wrote:
There are good reasons to want to put AC 
combiners under modules, but some reasons not to want to.

​​
An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a 
DC string fuse, due to the surge availability. 
As a PV system is designed to last a minimum of 
25 years, the installer might not be the one to 
sort out problems decades down the line.


A strategy I prefer would be to use a SolaDeck 
as a junction box. Run small wires to a convenient AC combiner location.



At 12:43 PM 4/29/2014, you wrote:

Dave

I agree, in the case of microinverters, you 
already have a main PV System disconnect at the 
Load Panel to shut down the system that is 
readily accesible.  I would consider the 
disconnect on the roof as a supplemental 
disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by 
authorized personal that only needs to be accessible.Â


Bill


On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click 
<davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu > wrote:
I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of 
the inverter OCPDs in the SolaDeck hidden under a module.

240.24 Location in or on Premises.
(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be 
readily accessible and shall be installed so 
that the center of the grip of the operating 
handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when 
in its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m 
(6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working 
platform, unless one of the following applies:

...
(4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to 
utilization equipment that they supply, access 
shall be permitted to be by portable means.


And if panelboards / fused safety switches are 
allowed to have screwed-down covers over the 
OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable 
module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess 
an AHJ could argue that this requires TWO 
covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.

DKC

On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
690.9(D) is not applicable to the original 
discussion because we were talking about an 
Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with 
breakers a junction box, but I can see that 
being a stretch in the mind of many.
My and Ray's question about the screws on the 
SolaDeck cover itself requiring a tool to 
render it accessible is still an issue if the 
breakers themselves need to be "readily 
accessible," but that would also apply to a 
Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.


Jason Szumlanski

On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this 
“hysteria­run for the border” sentiment is coming from.


Â
690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
be readily accessible.
Â
690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
wiring system.
Â
This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
Â
Bill Brooks.
Â
Â
From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
Â
Interesting so does "require a tool" include 
taking a screw off the cover plate of the combiner box, too?
What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico 
for my next project; I'll actually enjoy even 
more being the sole AHJ on the project.Â




R.Ray

Walters

CTO, Solarray,

Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,


Licensed Master

Electrician

Solar Design

Engineer

303

505-8760
On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:

Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 
NEC. Installing OCPD’s underneath a module 
is a major faux paux, and I can’t imagine 
any AHJ thinking otherwise. Having to remove 
a module in order to reset a breaker, what a drag.

Â
"Capable of being reached quickly for 
operation, renewal or inspection without 
requiring 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Jason Szumlanski]

"​
An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a DC string fuse"

I completely disagree. We have never, not once, had to reset a tripped
inverter output circuit AC breaker that I know of, but have replaced many
dozens of DC string fuses and GFCI fuses in inverters, most of the time for
undiagnosed failures.​ There is a reason we keep a good supply of 1A, 15A,
and 20A Littlefuses in a drawer here.

Jason Szumlanski





On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Drake  wrote:

>  There are good reasons to want to put AC combiners under modules, but
> some reasons not to want to.
> ​​
> An AC breaker is far more likely to trip than a DC string fuse, due to the
> surge availability. As a PV system is designed to last a minimum of 25
> years, the installer might not be the one to sort out problems decades down
> the line.
>
> A strategy I prefer would be to use a SolaDeck as a junction box. Run
> small wires to a convenient AC combiner location.
>
>
> At 12:43 PM 4/29/2014, you wrote:
>
> Dave
>
> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System
> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily
> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental
> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only
> needs to be accessible.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click 
> wrote:
>  I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in
> the SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>
> 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
> (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and
> shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle
> of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more
> than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of
> the following applies:
> ...
> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they
> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>
>
> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have
> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable
> module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that
> this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
>
> DKC
>
>
> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> 690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were
> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
>
> 690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box, but
> I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many.
>
> My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself
> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers
> themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a
> Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>
>
> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria­run for the
> border” sentiment is coming from.
>
>
>
> 690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
>
> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
>
> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
>
> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
>
> be readily accessible.
>
>
>
> 690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
>
> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
>
> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
>
> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
>
> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
>
> wiring system.
>
>
>
> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
>
>
>
> Bill Brooks.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of Ray Walters
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
>
>
>
> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the cover
> plate of the combiner box, too?
> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll
> actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.
>
>
> R.Ray
> Walters
>
>
> CTO, Solarray,
> Inc
>
>
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>
>
> Licensed Master
> Electrician
>
>
> Solar Design
> Engineer
>
>
> 303
> 505-8760 <303%20505-8760>
>
>
> On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
>
> Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 NEC. Installing OCPD’s
> underneath a module is a major faux paux, and I can’t imagine any AHJ
> thinking otherwise. Having to remove a module in order to reset a breaker,
> what a drag.
>
>
>
> "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection
> without requiring those concerned to use a tool, to climb over, remove
> obstacle or other.”
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[jay peltz]

Yep they make them

http://w3.usa.siemens.com/powerdistribution/us/en/product-portfolio/meter-load-center/Documents/SIE_BR_SOLAR.pdf

Jay




> On Apr 30, 2014, at 6:56 AM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:
> 
> Yeah, #10 wire is pretty cheap, especially when purchased in bulk, as are 
> readily available 100A Square D NEMA 3R load centers and breakers. There 
> isn't a great cost savings in terms of material. Sometimes it's just easier 
> to make a single home run. Every job is different. We do it both ways.
> 
> Sometimes there isn't enough space near the meter or existing distribution 
> for both a combiner and fusible disconnect or there are obstructions that 
> make it impractical. There are aesthetic concerns (usually overblown by the 
> homeowner or HOA). 
> 
> ​What we really need is for Square D to start making main distribution 
> equipment with dedicated supply side lugs with OCPD built in. One can 
> dream...​
> 
> 
> Jason
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, jay peltz  wrote:
>> Hi Jason,
>> 
>> Always good to get a different view on how to do it. 
>> I've always found it easier and cheaper to pull the circuits off the roof to 
>> the AC combiner, so my overcurrent is in a different location
>> 
>> Jay
>> Peltz power
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Each microinverter string needs dedicated overcurrent protection. If 
>>> combining strings on the roof for a single run back to the interconnection 
>>> point, you need each string to have it's own breaker/fuse. The other option 
>>> is to run each string back to the interconnection point separately, but for 
>>> a 10kW system you have to do a supply side connection anyway on as typical 
>>> 200A service, so combining strings somewhere is necessary, and a single run 
>>> from the roof makes sense in many cases.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jason Szumlanski 
>>> ​Fafco Solar​
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
 Follow up to Bill's point.
 
 For Micros I've installed a disconnect on the roof, but never a breaker or 
 fuse
 Why install a breaker?
 
 jay
 
 peltz power
 
> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
> 
> Dave
> 
> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System 
> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily 
> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental 
> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that 
> only needs to be accessible.  
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click  
>> wrote:
>> I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in 
>> the SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>> 
>> 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
>> (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and 
>> shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating 
>> handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, 
>> is not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, 
>> unless one of the following applies:
>> ...
>> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they 
>> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>> 
>> 
>> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have 
>> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a 
>> removable module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could 
>> argue that this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a 
>> switch.
>> 
>> DKC
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>> 690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were 
>>> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output 
>>> circuit.
>>> 
>>> 690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box, 
>>> but I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many. 
>>> 
>>> My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself 
>>> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the 
>>> breakers themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would 
>>> also apply to a Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> 
 
> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria—run for the 
> border” sentiment is coming from.
> 
>  
> 690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
> 
> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
> 
> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
> 
> devices shall be acc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors

[jay peltz]

Hi ray

As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not "rated" for fine stranded wire. 
 Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and ends 
says its UL for fine stranded. 

I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters. 
(Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with ferrules)

Jay

Peltz power


> On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:
> 
> Hi All;
> 
> In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of 
> horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with 
> Cobra X flex cable.
> While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech 
> support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated 
> for flex or fine stranded cable.
> Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters.  
> Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
> From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on pigtail 
> adapter.  It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the crimp side 
> of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over sized cables 
> into smaller lugs.  (2/0 to #1, for instance)
> The best I've found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed 
> around the wire, right in the connection:
> http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx
> I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
> http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf
> 
> So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
> The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail adapters 
> are coming in at $40/ ea.. (ouch)
> 
> On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no 
> adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles 
> 690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?
> And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
> For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs: 
> http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html
> I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman breakers 
> with that stiff a wire.  I've cracked breaker cases before..that's why 
> the X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> -- 
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
> 
> ___
> 
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Jason Szumlanski]

Yeah, #10 wire is pretty cheap, especially when purchased in bulk, as are
readily available 100A Square D NEMA 3R load centers and breakers. There
isn't a great cost savings in terms of material. Sometimes it's just easier
to make a single home run. Every job is different. We do it both ways.

Sometimes there isn't enough space near the meter or existing distribution
for both a combiner and fusible disconnect or there are obstructions that
make it impractical. There are aesthetic concerns (usually overblown by the
homeowner or HOA).

​What we really need is for Square D to start making main distribution
equipment with dedicated supply side lugs with OCPD built in. One can
dream...​


Jason


On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 9:44 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> Always good to get a different view on how to do it.
> I've always found it easier and cheaper to pull the circuits off the roof
> to the AC combiner, so my overcurrent is in a different location
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
> wrote:
>
> Each microinverter string needs dedicated overcurrent protection. If
> combining strings on the roof for a single run back to the interconnection
> point, you need each string to have it's own breaker/fuse. The other option
> is to run each string back to the interconnection point separately, but for
> a 10kW system you have to do a supply side connection anyway on as typical
> 200A service, so combining strings somewhere is necessary, and a single run
> from the roof makes sense in many cases.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> ​Fafco Solar​
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
>
>> Follow up to Bill's point.
>>
>> For Micros I've installed a disconnect on the roof, but never a breaker
>> or fuse
>> Why install a breaker?
>>
>> jay
>>
>> peltz power
>>
>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System
>> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily
>> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental
>> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only
>> needs to be accessible.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click wrote:
>>
>>>  I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in
>>> the SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>>>
>>>  *240.24 Location in or on Premises.*
>>>  *(A) Accessibility.* Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible
>>> and shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating
>>> handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is
>>> not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform,
>>> unless one of the following applies:
>>> ...
>>> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they
>>> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>>>
>>>
>>> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have
>>> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable
>>> module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that
>>> this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
>>>
>>> DKC
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>>
>>>  690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were
>>> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
>>>
>>>  690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box,
>>> but I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many.
>>>
>>>  My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself
>>> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers
>>> themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a
>>> Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Jason Szumlanski
>>>

 On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:

 Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria—run for the
 border” sentiment is coming from.


 *690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. *Listed PV

 overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent

 protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent

 devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to

 be readily accessible.


 *690.34 Access to Boxes. *Junction, pull, and outlet boxes

 located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that

 the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible

 directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured

 by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible

 wiring system.


 This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.


 Bill Brooks.



 *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
 mai

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Drake]

There are good reasons to want to put AC 
combiners under modules, but some reasons not to 
want to. An AC breaker is far more likely to trip 
than a DC string fuse, due to the surge 
availability. As a PV system is designed to last 
a minimum of 25 years, the installer might not be 
the one to sort out problems decades down the line.


A strategy I prefer would be to use a SolaDeck as 
a junction box. Run small wires to a convenient AC combiner location.



At 12:43 PM 4/29/2014, you wrote:

Dave

I agree, in the case of microinverters, you 
already have a main PV System disconnect at the 
Load Panel to shut down the system that is 
readily accesible.  I would consider the 
disconnect on the roof as a supplemental 
disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by 
authorized personal that only needs to be accessible.


Bill


On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click 
<davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu> wrote:
I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of 
the inverter OCPDs in the SolaDeck hidden under a module.


240.24 Location in or on Premises.
(A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be 
readily accessible and shall be installed so 
that the center of the grip of the operating 
handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in 
its highest position, is not more than 2.0 m (6 
ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, 
unless one of the following applies:

...
(4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to 
utilization equipment that they supply, access 
shall be permitted to be by portable means.



And if panelboards / fused safety switches are 
allowed to have screwed-down covers over the 
OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable 
module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess 
an AHJ could argue that this requires TWO covers 
be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.


DKC


On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
690.9(D) is not applicable to the original 
discussion because we were talking about an 
Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.


690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with 
breakers a junction box, but I can see that 
being a stretch in the mind of many.


My and Ray's question about the screws on the 
SolaDeck cover itself requiring a tool to 
render it accessible is still an issue if the 
breakers themselves need to be "readily 
accessible," but that would also apply to a 
Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.



Jason Szumlanski

On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:


Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this 
“hysteria­run for the border” sentiment is coming from.




690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV

overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent

protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent

devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to

be readily accessible.



690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes

located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that

the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible

directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured

by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible

wiring system.



This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.



Bill Brooks.





From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters

Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)



Interesting so does "require a tool" include 
taking a screw off the cover plate of the combiner box, too?
What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for 
my next project; I'll actually enjoy even more 
being the sole AHJ on the project.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:

Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 
NEC. Installing OCPD’s underneath a module is 
a major faux paux, and I can’t imagine any AHJ 
thinking otherwise. Having to remove a module 
in order to reset a breaker, what a drag.




"Capable of being reached quickly for 
operation, renewal or inspection without 
requiring those concerned to use a tool, to 
climb over, remove obstacle or other.”




Michael









On Apr 28, 2014, at 10:29 AM, William Miller 
<will...@millersolar.com> wrote:




You call it a solar panel, I call it a glass j-box cover plate.

William

Miller Solar


On Apr 28, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
<ja...@fafcosolar.com> wrote:


If that is the interpretation,
I don't see how the breakers are "readily accessible" in a SolaDeck
mounted anywhere, regardless of whether it is under a module. It
requires removal of four screws (using a tool) to access the breakers
inside the enclosure. It's all up to the AHJ. It has not been an

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[jay peltz]

Hi Jason,

Always good to get a different view on how to do it. 
I've always found it easier and cheaper to pull the circuits off the roof to 
the AC combiner, so my overcurrent is in a different location

Jay
Peltz power






> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:
> 
> Each microinverter string needs dedicated overcurrent protection. If 
> combining strings on the roof for a single run back to the interconnection 
> point, you need each string to have it's own breaker/fuse. The other option 
> is to run each string back to the interconnection point separately, but for a 
> 10kW system you have to do a supply side connection anyway on as typical 200A 
> service, so combining strings somewhere is necessary, and a single run from 
> the roof makes sense in many cases.
> 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski 
> ​Fafco Solar​
>  
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
>> Follow up to Bill's point.
>> 
>> For Micros I've installed a disconnect on the roof, but never a breaker or 
>> fuse
>> Why install a breaker?
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>>> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System 
>>> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily 
>>> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental 
>>> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only 
>>> needs to be accessible.  
>>> 
>>> Bill
>>> 
>>> 
 On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click  wrote:
 I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in the 
 SolaDeck hidden under a module.
 
 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
 (A) Accessibility. Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and 
 shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle 
 of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not 
 more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless 
 one of the following applies:
 ...
 (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they 
 supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
 
 
 And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have 
 screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable 
 module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that 
 this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
 
 DKC
 
 
> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
> 690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were 
> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output 
> circuit.
> 
> 690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box, but 
> I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many. 
> 
> My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself 
> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the 
> breakers themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also 
> apply to a Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
> 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> 
>> 
>>> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>>> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria—run for the 
>>> border” sentiment is coming from.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. Listed PV
>>> 
>>> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
>>> 
>>> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
>>> 
>>> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
>>> 
>>> be readily accessible.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 690.34 Access to Boxes. Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
>>> 
>>> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
>>> 
>>> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
>>> 
>>> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
>>> 
>>> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
>>> 
>>> wiring system.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Bill Brooks.
>>> 
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray 
>>> Walters
>>> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the 
>>> cover plate of the combiner box, too?
>>> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll 
>>> actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.  
>>> 
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Jason Szumlanski]

Each microinverter string needs dedicated overcurrent protection. If
combining strings on the roof for a single run back to the interconnection
point, you need each string to have it's own breaker/fuse. The other option
is to run each string back to the interconnection point separately, but for
a 10kW system you have to do a supply side connection anyway on as typical
200A service, so combining strings somewhere is necessary, and a single run
from the roof makes sense in many cases.


Jason Szumlanski

​Fafco Solar​





On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 6:40 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Follow up to Bill's point.
>
> For Micros I've installed a disconnect on the roof, but never a breaker or
> fuse
> Why install a breaker?
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
> On Apr 29, 2014, at 9:43 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
>
> Dave
>
> I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System
> disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily
> accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental
> disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only
> needs to be accessible.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click wrote:
>
>>  I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in
>> the SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>>
>>  *240.24 Location in or on Premises.*
>>  *(A) Accessibility.* Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible
>> and shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating
>> handle of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is
>> not more than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform,
>> unless one of the following applies:
>> ...
>> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they
>> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>>
>>
>> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have
>> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable
>> module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that
>> this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
>>
>> DKC
>>
>>
>> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>
>>  690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were
>> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
>>
>>  690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box,
>> but I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many.
>>
>>  My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself
>> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers
>> themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a
>> Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>>
>>
>>  Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>>
>>> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>> Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this “hysteria—run for the
>>> border” sentiment is coming from.
>>>
>>>
>>> *690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. *Listed PV
>>>
>>> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
>>>
>>> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
>>>
>>> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
>>>
>>> be readily accessible.
>>>
>>>
>>> *690.34 Access to Boxes. *Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
>>>
>>> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
>>>
>>> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
>>>
>>> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
>>>
>>> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
>>>
>>> wiring system.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill Brooks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
>>> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters
>>> *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
>>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the
>>> cover plate of the combiner box, too?
>>> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll
>>> actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.
>>>
>>>  R.Ray Walters
>>>
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>>
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>>
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>>
>>> Solar Design Engineer
>>>
>>> 303 505-8760
>>>
>>> On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
>>>
>>> Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 NEC. Installing OCPD’s
>>> underneath a module is a major faux paux, and I can’t imagine any AHJ
>>> thinking otherwise. Having to remove a module in order to reset a breaker,
>>> what a drag.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection
>>> without requiring those concerned to use a tool, to climb over, remove
>>> obstacle or other.”
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Apr 28, 2014, at 10:29 AM, Wil

Re: [RE-wrenches] Shade for Inverters on a flat roof

[Allen Frishman]

Benn,
micro inverters are an option although there is no shade issues on this project 
so I would like to keep the inverter cost down.   What I mean by zero lot is 
that the building is connected to the buildings on both sides, there is no back 
yard space and the front wall is exposed to the street so hanging inverters on 
an outside wall is not an option.Thanks for the feedback - I just might go 
with the micro inverters.


Al Frishman
AeonSolar

(917) 699-6641 - cell
(888) 460-2867
www.aeonsolar.com


On Apr 29, 2014, at 6:26 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote:

> Al,
> Not sure what you mean by "zero lot building"?
> Can you design/construct a ballasted "wall/structure" at the back of the 
> array that could accommodate the inverters and load center on its 
> 'out-of-the-sun' side.  It could be a covered/vented cabinet.
>   Are micro-inverters an option?  That would make it easier to 
> design/construct such a wall.
> 
> Benn
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 4:14 PM, Allen Frishman  wrote:
> Hey Wrenchers,
> I am looking for suggestions for building a shade structure on a flat roof 
> for inverters and load center.There is no bulk heads on this flat roof 
> and it is a zero lot building so there is no exterior wall available to hang 
> the inverters.   No space inside the building either so the roof is the only 
> option.Any suggestions?   I will be using a ballast racking system so the 
> array will not provide any shade.
> 
> All ideas welcome and appreciated!
> Al Frishman
> AeonSolar
> 
> (917) 699-6641 - cell
> (888) 460-2867
> www.aeonsolar.com
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Shade for Inverters on a flat roof

[Bill Loesch]

Fellow Wrenches,

Did the group get any efficacy resolution for Zomeworks Cool Box ? 
Although, I believe, primarily intended as a mechanism to 
moderate/mitigate temperature extremes to improve battery output on the 
temperature high and low ends, the cooler daytime temps, above and 
beyond mere shading, would not hurt anything (with the possible 
exception of one's wallet).


http://www.zomeworks.com/battery-electronic-enclosures/cool-cell/

What Missouri DOT uses to house it's electronics/batteries is an 
enclosure with a secondary flat plate with approx. one inch standoffs 
between the top of the enclosure and the "shade top".


Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

On 29-Apr-14 10:25 PM, Chris Mason wrote:


I can show how we did the same thing on a flat roof using unistrut and 
angle iron for 3 x SMA 20kw Tripowers and a 400A panel. All we had was 
a $100 MIG welder. We put some roof steel sheet above the inverters.

I will have to look for photos.

Chris Mason
Comet Systems
Anguilla (264) 235-5670
St. Kitts  (869) 662-5670
skype netconcepts

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Renewable Energy Systems professional
Generac Generators Factory technician

On Apr 29, 2014 6:11 PM, "Allen Frishman" > wrote:


Hey Wrenchers,
I am looking for suggestions for building a shade structure on a
flat roof for inverters and load center.  There is no bulk heads
on this flat roof and it is a zero lot building so there is no
exterior wall available to hang the inverters.   No space inside
the building either so the roof is the only option.Any
suggestions?   I will be using a ballast racking system so the
array will not provide any shade.

All ideas welcome and appreciated!

/Al Frishman/
AeonSolar

/(917) 699-6641  - cell/
/(888) 460-2867 /
/www.aeonsolar.com /



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