Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Dan Fink]

Allan;
Wow, that's a nightmare. All I can suggest for now is to X out some obvious
things and CYA. Sounds like you are CY someone else's A now. I get these
sort of calls too. Usually it's a townie PV installer who knows nothing
about off grid and programmed some equipment wrong.
~ measurement error? did you calibrate the refractometer with distilled
water before your tests? Do you have a float hydrometer for backup?
~ did you check SG on *every* cell? one bad one can ruin the whole bunch.
~ Did you view the battery bank on a thermal imager whilst charging or
discharging?
~ Isolate and load test a battery. I have a nifty antique adjustable load
tester that does this, but any DC load will do it. I'd shoot for a C/5 -
C/10 rate. With SG that low, you should know in a couple hours if it has
any capacity left at all.
~ Can you put a non-system-integrated coulomb counter SOC meter into the
system? Remove it later, just use for diagnostics?

My gut feeling is that for some reason, maybe programming of that mishmash
of equipment, either the PV array or generator or both is not charging
correctly, and these batteries have been starving. Or that there's one
really bad cell that's milking them down. I think I'd hit my thermal imager
first thing on this one.

Good luck! Keep us posted! I love this list because i can learn from
everyone else.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Allan Sindelar 
wrote:

> Wrenches,
> For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately measure SG
> of FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly new Bosch
> Robinair 75240 that has always performed as intended.
>
> A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to investigate
> and troubleshoot an off grid system that they had recently installed that
> was not keeping up with the customer's needs and had crashed. I'll give
> more details below, but the short question is that on a very cold day, I
> began measuring the SG of the batteries and got readings of between 1.00
> and 1.10 on all of the cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never
> seen this and am stumped as to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in
> various locations and got readings nearly identical, and all off the scale
> on the low side. Note that I used the supplied pipette to sample
> electrolyte well below the surface of the full cells, and they were lightly
> gassing at the time, so I don't think that this is simply highly stratified
> electrolyte.
>
> The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack; Schneider
> XW6048 with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge controller, System
> Control Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new Conext Battery Monitor.
> Batteries are two strings of 8 Surrette S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of
> C/20 storage to 80% DOD. The system has been in operation for only about 3
> months. The installation quality is mediocre at best, was located in an
> unheated TuffShed and is powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter,
> controller and SCP were connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext
> battery monitor was not.
>
> The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs & Stratton
> that had not been able to charge through the inverter as the inverter
> hadn't been properly programmed and would overload it. The site is at about
> 8,000' elevation, so we estimated about 4kW maximum output at 240V AC.
>
> I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list before
> arriving on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found. The day was
> sunny and especially cold - best guess a high in the mid-20s (F). After
> four hours on site my fingers were too stiff to write normally. The battery
> SOC monitor indicated 100%, and the SCP bar graph also estimated the
> batteries to be nearly full. Battery voltage under charge on each 6V
> battery ranged from a low of 7.38V to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate
> low enough to suggest absorption. The batteries had not been equalized
> since new, but new was claimed to be three months ago, and this appeared
> accurate.
>
> The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally, claimed
> that the system worked well during sunny periods but had crashed on about
> the second day of cloudy weather. They had been using the forced air
> furnace, and when I arrived had a heat lamp (not labeled as to watts, but I
> assume 250W 130V) inside the leaky battery box, shining on some of the
> batteries.
>
> As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in
> display/interface, so there was no easy way to determine the charge mode or
> anything else except through the System Control Panel. That seems pretty
> bogus to me. I had not seen one of these previously, 

[RE-wrenches] 1000V DC Ground wire?

[Allen Frishman]

Wrenchers,
What are you using for green ground wire from the array to the inverters for 
your 1000V DC systems?  

I searched the archives but could not find any info.I appreciate your 
help!!!
Al Frishman
AeonSolar

(917) 699-6641 - cell
(888) 460-2867
www.aeonsolar.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Chris Worcester]

Happy Winter Solstice! Speaking of this, here in Truckee at 6000’ we are seeing 
snow outside the window, batteries are dipping low, threatening to start the 
gen set. Even if you’re getting a solid 3 hours of sun a day on that 3.9 kW 
array say at 80% efficiency, let’s use 48 VDC nominal, that is a unimpressive 
183 Ah/d kicking into the 800+ AH new battery. Just plain not enough oomph to 
bring them up so they’re sagging, especially with that miss matched 6 kW 
Briggs.  The solar is trying but can’t do it. (assuming the loads in the home 
are above a measly 100 Ah/d or so) here we are seeing about 2 sunny days per 
week in all these storm cycles. That being said my IBE 2 volt cells still 
haven’t seen the genny yet. Time to get on the tractor!

 

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Office 530-582-4503

Cell 530-448-9692

Fax 530-582-4603

www.solarwindworks.com

ch...@solarwindworks.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 9:16 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

 

Wrenches,
For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately measure SG of 
FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly new Bosch Robinair 75240 
that has always performed as intended. 

A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to investigate and 
troubleshoot an off grid system that they had recently installed that was not 
keeping up with the customer's needs and had crashed. I'll give more details 
below, but the short question is that on a very cold day, I began measuring the 
SG of the batteries and got readings of between 1.00 and 1.10 on all of the 
cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never seen this and am stumped as 
to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in various locations and got 
readings nearly identical, and all off the scale on the low side. Note that I 
used the supplied pipette to sample electrolyte well below the surface of the 
full cells, and they were lightly gassing at the time, so I don't think that 
this is simply highly stratified electrolyte.

The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack; Schneider XW6048 
with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge controller, System Control 
Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new Conext Battery Monitor. Batteries are two 
strings of 8 Surrette S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of C/20 storage to 80% DOD. 
The system has been in operation for only about 3 months. The installation 
quality is mediocre at best, was located in an unheated TuffShed and is 
powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter, controller and SCP were 
connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext battery monitor was not. 

The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs & Stratton that 
had not been able to charge through the inverter as the inverter hadn't been 
properly programmed and would overload it. The site is at about 8,000' 
elevation, so we estimated about 4kW maximum output at 240V AC. 

I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list before arriving 
on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found. The day was sunny and 
especially cold - best guess a high in the mid-20s (F). After four hours on 
site my fingers were too stiff to write normally. The battery SOC monitor 
indicated 100%, and the SCP bar graph also estimated the batteries to be nearly 
full. Battery voltage under charge on each 6V battery ranged from a low of 
7.38V to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate low enough to suggest absorption. 
The batteries had not been equalized since new, but new was claimed to be three 
months ago, and this appeared accurate.

The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally, claimed that 
the system worked well during sunny periods but had crashed on about the second 
day of cloudy weather. They had been using the forced air furnace, and when I 
arrived had a heat lamp (not labeled as to watts, but I assume 250W 130V) 
inside the leaky battery box, shining on some of the batteries. 

As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in display/interface, 
so there was no easy way to determine the charge mode or anything else except 
through the System Control Panel. That seems pretty bogus to me. I had not seen 
one of these previously, nor had I seen Schneider's shunt-based SOC meter. When 
I have installed XWs and SW Conexts I have always used Midnite E-Panels, which 
have conventional 500A shunts, and TriMetrics to offer accurate SOC for the 
customer.

The system settings all appeared to be set to default, other than "flooded" for 
battery type. Here are the changes I made in the setup. A couple of things I 
noticed: 
1) with a default LBCO of 40.0V, on at least two occasions the batteries 
had been completely drained, and had been recharged only by the (substantial) 
array; but as the array 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Jay]

Hi Allan,

Thanks for the complete data situation, amazing as always. 
As usual lots of basic problems that are so avoidable. 

I remember someone, on this list mentioned that refractometers are damaged by 
getting too cold and that they won't read correctly
I can't find that info however.  

As the situation is unclear, I would check with a fluid hydrometer to double 
check your battery SG results. 

Jay









> On Dec 21, 2015, at 9:16 AM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately measure SG of 
> FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly new Bosch Robinair 
> 75240 that has always performed as intended. 
> 
> A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to investigate and 
> troubleshoot an off grid system that they had recently installed that was not 
> keeping up with the customer's needs and had crashed. I'll give more details 
> below, but the short question is that on a very cold day, I began measuring 
> the SG of the batteries and got readings of between 1.00 and 1.10 on all of 
> the cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never seen this and am 
> stumped as to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in various locations 
> and got readings nearly identical, and all off the scale on the low side. 
> Note that I used the supplied pipette to sample electrolyte well below the 
> surface of the full cells, and they were lightly gassing at the time, so I 
> don't think that this is simply highly stratified electrolyte.
> 
> The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack; Schneider 
> XW6048 with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge controller, System 
> Control Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new Conext Battery Monitor. 
> Batteries are two strings of 8 Surrette S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of C/20 
> storage to 80% DOD. The system has been in operation for only about 3 months. 
> The installation quality is mediocre at best, was located in an unheated 
> TuffShed and is powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter, controller 
> and SCP were connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext battery monitor 
> was not. 
> 
> The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs & Stratton that 
> had not been able to charge through the inverter as the inverter hadn't been 
> properly programmed and would overload it. The site is at about 8,000' 
> elevation, so we estimated about 4kW maximum output at 240V AC. 
> 
> I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list before 
> arriving on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found. The day was 
> sunny and especially cold - best guess a high in the mid-20s (F). After four 
> hours on site my fingers were too stiff to write normally. The battery SOC 
> monitor indicated 100%, and the SCP bar graph also estimated the batteries to 
> be nearly full. Battery voltage under charge on each 6V battery ranged from a 
> low of 7.38V to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate low enough to suggest 
> absorption. The batteries had not been equalized since new, but new was 
> claimed to be three months ago, and this appeared accurate.
> 
> The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally, claimed 
> that the system worked well during sunny periods but had crashed on about the 
> second day of cloudy weather. They had been using the forced air furnace, and 
> when I arrived had a heat lamp (not labeled as to watts, but I assume 250W 
> 130V) inside the leaky battery box, shining on some of the batteries. 
> 
> As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in display/interface, 
> so there was no easy way to determine the charge mode or anything else except 
> through the System Control Panel. That seems pretty bogus to me. I had not 
> seen one of these previously, nor had I seen Schneider's shunt-based SOC 
> meter. When I have installed XWs and SW Conexts I have always used Midnite 
> E-Panels, which have conventional 500A shunts, and TriMetrics to offer 
> accurate SOC for the customer.
> 
> The system settings all appeared to be set to default, other than "flooded" 
> for battery type. Here are the changes I made in the setup. A couple of 
> things I noticed: 
> 1) with a default LBCO of 40.0V, on at least two occasions the batteries 
> had been completely drained, and had been recharged only by the (substantial) 
> array; but as the array is in theory (3.9kW/58V = 65A in good sun, or a c/12 
> charge rate, this suggests that even empty batteries will be recharged to 
> full in 2-3 days.
> 2) battery capacity was set at default of 440AH, when it was actually 
> about 850AH,so the charge rate would have tapered prematurely.
> 3) The bulk voltage was the default for 'flooded' - I don't know the 
> default, as it isn't given in the XW manual and I changed it to 'custom'. I 
> assume about 58.4V.
> 
> Setting name 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Dana]

1.000 SG is water & 1.100 SG is like mild vinegar.

 



Dana Orzel 

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 

O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 10:16 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

 

Wrenches,
For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately measure SG of 
FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly new Bosch Robinair 75240 
that has always performed as intended. 

A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to investigate and 
troubleshoot an off grid system that they had recently installed that was not 
keeping up with the customer's needs and had crashed. I'll give more details 
below, but the short question is that on a very cold day, I began measuring the 
SG of the batteries and got readings of between 1.00 and 1.10 on all of the 
cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never seen this and am stumped as 
to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in various locations and got 
readings nearly identical, and all off the scale on the low side. Note that I 
used the supplied pipette to sample electrolyte well below the surface of the 
full cells, and they were lightly gassing at the time, so I don't think that 
this is simply highly stratified electrolyte.

The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack; Schneider XW6048 
with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge controller, System Control 
Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new Conext Battery Monitor. Batteries are two 
strings of 8 Surrette S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of C/20 storage to 80% DOD. 
The system has been in operation for only about 3 months. The installation 
quality is mediocre at best, was located in an unheated TuffShed and is 
powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter, controller and SCP were 
connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext battery monitor was not. 

The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs & Stratton that 
had not been able to charge through the inverter as the inverter hadn't been 
properly programmed and would overload it. The site is at about 8,000' 
elevation, so we estimated about 4kW maximum output at 240V AC. 

I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list before arriving 
on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found. The day was sunny and 
especially cold - best guess a high in the mid-20s (F). After four hours on 
site my fingers were too stiff to write normally. The battery SOC monitor 
indicated 100%, and the SCP bar graph also estimated the batteries to be nearly 
full. Battery voltage under charge on each 6V battery ranged from a low of 
7.38V to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate low enough to suggest absorption. 
The batteries had not been equalized since new, but new was claimed to be three 
months ago, and this appeared accurate.

The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally, claimed that 
the system worked well during sunny periods but had crashed on about the second 
day of cloudy weather. They had been using the forced air furnace, and when I 
arrived had a heat lamp (not labeled as to watts, but I assume 250W 130V) 
inside the leaky battery box, shining on some of the batteries. 

As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in display/interface, 
so there was no easy way to determine the charge mode or anything else except 
through the System Control Panel. That seems pretty bogus to me. I had not seen 
one of these previously, nor had I seen Schneider's shunt-based SOC meter. When 
I have installed XWs and SW Conexts I have always used Midnite E-Panels, which 
have conventional 500A shunts, and TriMetrics to offer accurate SOC for the 
customer.

The system settings all appeared to be set to default, other than "flooded" for 
battery type. Here are the changes I made in the setup. A couple of things I 
noticed: 
1) with a default LBCO of 40.0V, on at least two occasions the batteries 
had been completely drained, and had been recharged only by the (substantial) 
array; but as the array is in theory (3.9kW/58V = 65A in good sun, or a c/12 
charge rate, this suggests that even empty batteries will be recharged to full 
in 2-3 days.
2) battery capacity was set at default of 440AH, when it was actually about 
850AH,so the charge rate would have tapered prematurely.
3) The bulk voltage was the default for 'flooded' - I don't know the 
default, as it isn't given in the XW manual and I changed it to 'custom'. I 
assume about 58.4V.

Setting name   

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Trust your tools. As you know, low SG means the acid is in the form of lead 
sulfate. Were these dry charged Surrettes? What environment and how long did 
the batteries set from the date of manufacturer to the date of commissioning 
the system? Even 120 day old batteries can begin to show problems from deficit 
charging which includes no or improper equalization. This can cause difficulty 
reaching the CV set point with unequal cell voltage while charging. 

Even though these are “new” batteries, perhaps a corrective equalization is 
needed to drive the SG back up: 
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/430-corrective-equalization-instructionsI
 recommend a long equalization process 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Dec 21, 2015, at 10:16 AM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:

Wrenches,
For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately measure SG of 
FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly new Bosch Robinair 75240 
that has always performed as intended. 

A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to investigate and 
troubleshoot an off grid system that they had recently installed that was not 
keeping up with the customer's needs and had crashed. I'll give more details 
below, but the short question is that on a very cold day, I began measuring the 
SG of the batteries and got readings of between 1.00 and 1.10 on all of the 
cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never seen this and am stumped as 
to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in various locations and got 
readings nearly identical, and all off the scale on the low side. Note that I 
used the supplied pipette to sample electrolyte well below the surface of the 
full cells, and they were lightly gassing at the time, so I don't think that 
this is simply highly stratified electrolyte.

The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack; Schneider XW6048 
with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge controller, System Control 
Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new Conext Battery Monitor. Batteries are two 
strings of 8 Surrette S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of C/20 storage to 80% DOD. 
The system has been in operation for only about 3 months. The installation 
quality is mediocre at best, was located in an unheated TuffShed and is 
powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter, controller and SCP were 
connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext battery monitor was not. 

The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs & Stratton that 
had not been able to charge through the inverter as the inverter hadn't been 
properly programmed and would overload it. The site is at about 8,000' 
elevation, so we estimated about 4kW maximum output at 240V AC. 

I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list before arriving 
on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found. The day was sunny and 
especially cold - best guess a high in the mid-20s (F). After four hours on 
site my fingers were too stiff to write normally. The battery SOC monitor 
indicated 100%, and the SCP bar graph also estimated the batteries to be nearly 
full. Battery voltage under charge on each 6V battery ranged from a low of 
7.38V to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate low enough to suggest absorption. 
The batteries had not been equalized since new, but new was claimed to be three 
months ago, and this appeared accurate.

The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally, claimed that 
the system worked well during sunny periods but had crashed on about the second 
day of cloudy weather. They had been using the forced air furnace, and when I 
arrived had a heat lamp (not labeled as to watts, but I assume 250W 130V) 
inside the leaky battery box, shining on some of the batteries. 

As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in display/interface, 
so there was no easy way to determine the charge mode or anything else except 
through the System Control Panel. That seems pretty bogus to me. I had not seen 
one of these previously, nor had I seen Schneider's shunt-based SOC meter. When 
I have installed XWs and SW Conexts I have always used Midnite E-Panels, which 
have conventional 500A shunts, and TriMetrics to offer accurate SOC for the 
customer.

The system settings all appeared to be set to default, other than "flooded" for 
battery type. Here are the changes I made in the setup. A couple of things I 
noticed: 
1) with a default LBCO of 40.0V, on at least two occasions the batteries 
had been completely drained, and had been recharged only by the (substantial) 
array; but as the array is in theory (3.9kW/58V = 65A in good sun, or a c/12 
charge rate, this suggests that even empty batteries will be recharged to full 
in 2-3 days.
2) battery capacity was set at default of 440AH, when it was actually about 
850AH,so the charge rate would have tapered prematurely.
3) The bulk voltage was 

Re: [RE-wrenches] 1000V DC Ground wire?

[Daniel Young]

I use standard THWN-2 green of the appropriate size. Ground wire does not
have to have the 1,000Vrating, as the copper inside is at 0 Vdc to ground
(at least we hope it is J). Remember that EGC's can actually be bare copper
(NEC 250.119), think of the ground wire in ROMEX, or the bare copper you see
grounding light fixtures from IKEA... But if it's insulated or covered, it
has to be green or green with yellow stripes. We don't normally have them
bare in a PV install because we use metallic conduit and you don't touch
bare copper to metallic conduits, not to mention insulated stranded wire is
much easier to pull.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

  www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We've completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in
our photo gallery:

http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
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From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Allen Frishman
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 1:21 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V DC Ground wire?

 

Wrenchers,

What are you using for green ground wire from the array to the inverters for
your 1000V DC systems?  

 

I searched the archives but could not find any info.I appreciate your
help!!!

Al Frishman
AeonSolar

(917) 699-6641   - cell
(888) 460-2867  
www.aeonsolar.com  

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schletter

[Benn Kilburn]

Chris,
I've used these a few times.  I would say they were successful.
What sort of questions do you have?


*Benn Kilburn *
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
[image: email]  [image: facebook]
 [image: twitter]
 [image: linkedin]

 [image: google] 

[image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Christopher Warfel <
cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:

> Has anyone had success using Schletter FS racking system?  I am having a
> hard time talking to their people, and getting answers to some information
> to price the project.
>
> Thank you, Chris
>
> --
> Christopher Warfel, President
> ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
> 401-466-8978
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitor of an Outback system location

[Lones Tuss]

Hello, Dana.

OpticRe does allow you to set up email alerts, including low battery voltage 
detected on inverter.
However, if the internet service onsite is not reliable, it will interrupt 
communications between the MATE3 and OpticsRE.


Lones Tuss
Applications Engineer
OutBack Power Technologies
17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
360.618.4383 Office | 425.213.8794 Cell
www.outbackpower.com

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dana
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 6:05 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Remote monitor of an Outback system location

Wrenching wizards,

I have a part time occupied client's house at 10,000' elevation that does not 
have: cell service, barely texting capability, & a radio based Century link 
semi reliable analog phone (as long as the wind is not blowing the radio 
antenna around). She does have Hughes-net or equivalent satellite internet & a 
2 year old Outback power system/Mate III with a 20 KW Kohler generator. During 
the latest cold snap (-7°) the generator failed to start as it is in an outdoor 
unheated "garage". LP gas backs up the whole scenario. Snowmobile is the only 
access & if it is a snow storm there is a great chance that you are not getting 
in or out due to sever drifting.

Q - In order to send a low power signal (<23.9 VDC?) or generator failure to 
start distress call from the Outback equipment: What is available to 
communicate a variety of distress signals via internet?
Can the RE Optics interface perform this task?

I have a local security/alarm company that can provide via router (this 
requires AC present though): Low temperature & AC out (but at that point it is 
too late the house is on a downhill slide), Low DC & or generator failure to 
start would be preferable. The alarm company's connection to the router can 
read a closed relay as a command.

Suggestions & what have you used?

Thanks in advance.



Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com
O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.


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[RE-wrenches] Remote monitor of an Outback system location

[Dana]

Wrenching wizards,

 

I have a part time occupied client’s house at 10,000’ elevation that does
not have: cell service, barely texting capability, & a radio based Century
link semi reliable analog phone (as long as the wind is not blowing the
radio antenna around). She does have Hughes-net or equivalent satellite
internet & a 2 year old Outback power system/Mate III with a 20 KW Kohler
generator. During the latest cold snap (-7°) the generator failed to start
as it is in an outdoor unheated “garage”. LP gas backs up the whole
scenario. Snowmobile is the only access & if it is a snow storm there is a
great chance that you are not getting in or out due to sever drifting.

 

Q – In order to send a low power signal (<23.9 VDC?) or generator failure to
start distress call from the Outback equipment: What is available to
communicate a variety of distress signals via internet?

Can the RE Optics interface perform this task?

 

I have a local security/alarm company that can provide via router (this
requires AC present though): Low temperature & AC out (but at that point it
is too late the house is on a downhill slide), Low DC & or generator failure
to start would be preferable. The alarm company’s connection to the router
can read a closed relay as a command.

 

Suggestions & what have you used?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 



Dana Orzel 

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 

O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 

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[RE-wrenches] Fwd: Refractometer reading has me stumped

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Wrenches,
For years I have carried and used a refractometer to accurately
measure SG of FLA batteries. I currently have a decent one, a nearly
new Bosch Robinair 75240 that has always performed as intended. 

A couple of days ago I was hired by another local company to
investigate and troubleshoot an off grid system that they had
recently installed that was not keeping up with the customer's needs
and had crashed. I'll give more details below, but the short
question is that on a very cold day, I began measuring the SG of the
batteries and got readings of between 1.00 and 1.10 on all of the
cells I tested, with no obvious cause. I have never seen this and am
stumped as to the cause. I tested SG on about six cells in various
locations and got readings nearly identical, and all off the scale
on the low side. Note that I used the supplied pipette to sample
electrolyte well below the surface of the full cells, and they were
lightly gassing at the time, so I don't think that this is simply
highly stratified electrolyte.

The system: 12 x 327 Sunpower modules (3.9 kW) on fixed rack;
Schneider XW6048 with Power Distribution Panel, XW600-80 charge
controller, System Control Panel, unused AGS and Schneider's new
Conext Battery Monitor. Batteries are two strings of 8 Surrette
S550s, for about 32 kw-hours of C/20 storage to 80% DOD. The system
has been in operation for only about 3 months. The installation
quality is mediocre at best, was located in an unheated TuffShed and
is powering a doublewide mobile home. The inverter, controller and
SCP were connected by the Xanbus system, but the Conext battery
monitor was not. 

The backup generator was a very basic manual-start 6kW Briggs &
Stratton that had not been able to charge through the inverter as
the inverter hadn't been properly programmed and would overload it.
The site is at about 8,000' elevation, so we estimated about 4kW
maximum output at 240V AC. 

I hadn't seen pictures or been given an accurate component list
before arriving on site, so was not fully prepared for what I found.
The day was sunny and especially cold - best guess a high in the
mid-20s (F). After four hours on site my fingers were too stiff to
write normally. The battery SOC monitor indicated 100%, and the SCP
bar graph also estimated the batteries to be nearly full. Battery
voltage under charge on each 6V battery ranged from a low of 7.38V
to a high of 7.50V, with a charge rate low enough to suggest
absorption. The batteries had not been equalized since new, but new
was claimed to be three months ago, and this appeared accurate.

The system owners are new to off grid, and while living frugally,
claimed that the system worked well during sunny periods but had
crashed on about the second day of cloudy weather. They had been
using the forced air furnace, and when I arrived had a heat lamp
(not labeled as to watts, but I assume 250W 130V) inside the leaky
battery box, shining on some of the batteries. 

As an aside, the 600V Schneider controller has no built-in
display/interface, so there was no easy way to determine the charge
mode or anything else except through the System Control Panel. That
seems pretty bogus to me. I had not seen one of these previously,
nor had I seen Schneider's shunt-based SOC meter. When I have
installed XWs and SW Conexts I have always used Midnite E-Panels,
which have conventional 500A shunts, and TriMetrics to offer
accurate SOC for the customer.

The system settings all appeared to be set to default, other than
"flooded" for battery type. Here are the changes I made in the
setup. A couple of things I noticed: 
    1) with a default LBCO of 40.0V, on at least two occasions the
batteries had been completely drained, and had been recharged only
by the (substantial) array; but as the array is in theory (3.9kW/58V
= 65A in good sun, or a c/12 charge rate, this suggests that even
empty batteries will be recharged to full in 2-3 days.
    2) battery capacity was set at default of 440AH, when it was
actually about 850AH,so the charge rate would have tapered
prematurely.
    3) The bulk voltage was the default for 'flooded' - I don't know
the default, as it isn't given in the XW manual and I changed it to
'custom'. I assume about 58.4V.

Setting name  

Previous setting  
New setting
Inverter LBCO
(V)

40.0 (!)          45.2
LBCO delay
(seconds) 

      10   600
HBCO (V)