Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??

[Kent Osterberg]

Ray,

Per NEC 480 batteries below 48 volts didn't need a readily accessible 
disconnect within site of the batteries. That's unchanged in the 2020 
Code, you don't have to have a readily accessible disconnect within site 
of the batteries. That's a good thing considering the environment near 
lead acid batteries. A disconnect switch still isn't required in the 
48-volt battery room.


Yes, if you put a 48-volt battery in a one or two-family dwelling, an 
outside (remote) emergency disconnect is required. That is going to be a 
pain that may add hundreds of dollars to the cost of small off-grid 
systems. You might get away with a mushroom switch and a 24-volt tap on 
the batteries to activate a remote trip breaker. But considering that it 
is a fire-safety related circuit it is probably best to spend the money 
for the bird box.


At the very least 480.7(B) should make off-grid folks think about using 
a power shed. The power shed is not a dwelling so 2020 NEC 480.7(B) 
doesn't apply.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 10/19/2020 8:34 PM, Ray wrote:


I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, 
even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter.  I 
knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard 
mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held 
to 706.  Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the 
outside remote disconnect. Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and 
the dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new 
requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely?


and still my initial question:

Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote 
disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 
480.7(A)..quite confusing.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and 
the LX flavors

Jerry

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray > wrote:


The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state
that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and
that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540.

Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes
storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks),
charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an
overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such
is subject to the requirements of article 480"/

and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says:
"/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/.

So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to
480. Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for
batteries over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B)
says houses need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries
labeled "Emergency Disconnect".

So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from
480.7(B)?

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:

Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of
ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS
/could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the
figures in Article 690 show three different configurations where
the output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect
comes before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter,
as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in
the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other
systems which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes,
but the key is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the
ESS only provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS clearly
states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/
include power electronics (but may not).

My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously
problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very
common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store
energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit
signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements.

Cheers,

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com 



On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:

Hi Ray,

This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a
number of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the
2017 NEC came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks'
assessment that the n

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??

[Ray]

I've used Blue Planet, so I guess I have used an actual UL listed ESS, 
even though they don't include the charge controller or inverter.  I 
knew they were UL, but I double checked and it is the UL 9540 standard 
mentioned in 706. So in this case, we could ignore 480, but are held to 
706.  Regardless of 480 or 706, both are possibly requiring the outside 
remote disconnect.  Besides Midnite's remote trip breakers, and the 
dreaded Bird House, what other options are there to meet this new 
requirement?   Can the Blue Planet be tripped remotely?


and still my initial question:

Under 480.7, are batteries below 60v still required to have the remote 
disconnect?  They are exempted from having a disconnect at all in 
480.7(A)..quite confusing.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 10/19/20 7:06 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and 
the LX flavors

Jerry

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray > wrote:


The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state
that 706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and
that the total assembly must be listed under UL 9540.

Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes
storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks),
charge controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an
overall listing as an ESS is a storage battery system and as such
is subject to the requirements of article 480"/

and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says:
"/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/.

So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480.
Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries
over 60 vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses
need to have an outside disconnect for the batteries labeled
"Emergency Disconnect".

So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)?

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:

Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of
ESS systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS
/could/ provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures
in Article 690 show three different configurations where the
output of the ESS is not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes
before any power electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown
in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the
stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems
which utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key
is "connected to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only
provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS clearly states this -
it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ include power
electronics (but may not).

My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously
problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very
common) was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store
energy (such as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit
signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements.

Cheers,

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com 



On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:

Hi Ray,

This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number
of my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC
came out, I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment
that the new article was poorly written and did not apply to
most systems being installed today. After much discussion
through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that
indeed 706 apples to the typical residential systems.
So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706,
and I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is
generating AC voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system
fall under article 706.

Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA
1, and the IFC as applicable locally.
So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the
work we do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or
above (making the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger).

My initial problem was believing that the article applied to
a component (the battery bank), and not the system (all
components taken together as a generator/storage system). It
is an easy misunderstanding to make.

Hope this helps!

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

I didn't have the opportunity to investigate it with any
forensic/scientific methodology. The clamps could have been very close to
the eave, spaced too far in the corner zones, cantilevers could have been
excessive... it's hard to tell. But I was surprised by the failure mode as
well. It did give me confidence that the S-5's would not separate from the
seams at least. FWIW it was Unirac standard rail with SolarWorld 60-cell on
a 3:12 pitch at about 25 feet height, right on the beach (170 mph ultimate
design wind speed, Exp D).

Jason


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:37 PM Will White  wrote:

> That's a really interesting failure mode. I would have thought the
> fasteners would have pulled out but I guess it makes sense that the metal
> ripped.
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold
>> the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It
>> is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few
>> clamps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White  wrote:
>>
>>> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
>>> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
>>> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
>>> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Will
>>>
>>>   --
>>> *Will White*
>>> Curriculum Developer
>>>
>>> e: w...@solarenergy.org
>>> w: www.solarenergy.org
>>> p: 802-272-3092
>>>
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>> # 093006-34
>>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
 I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large
 system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane
 Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
 connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
 attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
 bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.

 To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know
 what the spacing was on the clamps, either.


 On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
 wrote:

> Wrenches
> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off
>> with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>>
>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only
>> thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
>> hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
>> stronger than the roofing.
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
>>

>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Blue planet are fire and UL listed systems both on there 48 Volt and the LX
flavors
Jerry

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020, 5:51 PM Ray  wrote:

> The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 706
> only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the total
> assembly must be listed under UL 9540.
>
> Further it states: "* A group of separate components that includes
> storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge
> controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as an
> ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the requirements
> of article 480"*
>
> and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: "*Energy
> Storage systems shall be listed"*.
>
> So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480.
> Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 vdc
> (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an
> outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect".
>
> So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)?
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
>
> Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS systems
> and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS *could* provide 120/240
> VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 690 show three
> different configurations where the output of the ESS is not AC, and where
> the ESS disconnect comes before any power electronics (like a multimode
> inverter, as shown in the AC and DC coupled systems) or loads (as shown in
> the stand-alone system). Are those ESS connected to other systems which
> utilize stored energy to provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected
> to other systems" - in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In fact the
> definition of ESS clearly states this - it *can* have AC or DC output,
> and it *may* include power electronics (but may not).
>
> My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously problematic
> in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) was inserted in
> order to exempt other devices that store energy (such as UPS, or battery
> backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 706 requirements.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray,
>>
>> This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of my
>> fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out, I agreed
>> with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new article was poorly
>> written and did not apply to most systems being installed today. After much
>> discussion through my Cadmus network of authorities, it emerged that indeed
>> 706 apples to the typical residential systems.
>> So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and I
>> believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC voltage of
>> 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706.
>>
>> Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and the
>> IFC as applicable locally.
>> So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we do
>> when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making the system
>> operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger).
>>
>> My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a component
>> (the battery bank), and not the system (all components taken together as a
>> generator/storage system). It is an easy misunderstanding to make.
>>
>> Hope this helps!
>>
>> -Glenn Burt
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf
>> Of Ray
>> Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Cc: Bill Brooks ; Bill Brooks > >
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??
>>
>> Hi Everyone;
>>
>> I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that the
>> newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is only for Over
>> 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 for batteries only requires disconnecting
>> means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not about to not have a disconnect, so
>> now that NEC pulled battery systems out of 690,  where do we go for
>> guidance on normal battery systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC?
>>
>> Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like separating off
>> grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it seems us off grid
>> installers need some more clarification.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> --
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change lists

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??

[Ray]

The notes in the NEC 2020 Handbook for article 706 clearly state that 
706 only covers ESS which is an assembly of components, and that the 
total assembly must be listed under UL 9540.


Further it states: "/A group of separate components that includes 
storage batteries, that is provided with support systems (racks), charge 
controllers, and inverters, and that does NOT have an overall listing as 
an ESS is a storage battery system and as such is subject to the 
requirements of article 480"/


and just in case someone says the notes don't matter, 706.5 says: 
"/Energy Storage systems shall be listed"/.


So, since I have never used an actual listed ESS, I'm back to 480. 
Specifically, 480.7 (A) says we need a disconnect for batteries over 60 
vdc (48v should be exempt) and then 480.7(B) says houses need to have an 
outside disconnect for the batteries labeled "Emergency Disconnect".


So here's the real question:   Does 480.7(A) exempt us from 480.7(B)?

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/9/19 8:08 PM, Brian Mehalic wrote:
Hi Glenn, I don't completely agree with your interpretation of ESS 
systems and the application of Article 706.  Yes, an ESS /could/ 
provide 120/240 VAC (e.g. the Powerwall), but the figures in Article 
690 show three different configurations where the output of the ESS is 
not AC, and where the ESS disconnect comes before any power 
electronics (like a multimode inverter, as shown in the AC and DC 
coupled systems) or loads (as shown in the stand-alone system). Are 
those ESS connected to other systems which utilize stored energy to 
provide AC power? Yes, but the key is "connected to other systems" - 
in many cases the ESS only provides DC.  In fact the definition of ESS 
clearly states this - it /can/ have AC or DC output, and it /may/ 
include power electronics (but may not).


My understanding is that the 60 volt limit (which is obviously 
problematic in a world where 48 VDC batteries and ESS are very common) 
was inserted in order to exempt other devices that store energy (such 
as UPS, or battery backup in fire alarms/exit signage/etc.) from the 
706 requirements.


Cheers,

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com 



On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 4:07 PM Glenn Burt > wrote:


Hi Ray,

This is a conversation I have had some time ago with a number of
my fellow inspectors and code experts. When the 2017 NEC came out,
I agreed with Mike Holt and Bill Brooks' assessment that the new
article was poorly written and did not apply to most systems being
installed today. After much discussion through my Cadmus network
of authorities, it emerged that indeed 706 apples to the typical
residential systems.
So Energy Storage Systems (ESS) are the point of article 706, and
I believe that the key point is that the SYSTEM is generating AC
voltage of 120VAC or 240VAC, making the system fall under article 706.

Batteries themselves are minimally covered by NEC 480, NFPA 1, and
the IFC as applicable locally.
So, the bottom line is that the new article does cover the work we
do when systems provide or interface with 120VAC or above (making
the system operation exceeding the 60V AC trigger).

My initial problem was believing that the article applied to a
component (the battery bank), and not the system (all components
taken together as a generator/storage system). It is an easy
misunderstanding to make.

Hope this helps!

-Glenn Burt

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2019 12:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc: Bill Brooks mailto:bi...@energy808.com>>; Bill Brooks mailto:billbroo...@yahoo.com>>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC for Batteries < 60v ??

Hi Everyone;

I'm updating all my verbage on plansets, and I just realized that
the newly created article 706 covering Energy Storage Systems is
only for Over 60 VDC (706.1)  Also article 480 for batteries only
requires disconnecting means over 60 VDC ?! (480.7).   I'm not
about to not have a disconnect, so now that NEC pulled battery
systems out of 690,  where do we go for guidance on normal battery
systems: 12, 24, 48 VDC?

Overall, I welcome most of the changes in NEC 2017, like
separating off grid systems into articles 706, and 710, but it
seems us off grid installers need some more clarification.

Thanks,

--
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[Ray]

We use the FM 100, but not Outback inverters.  We have one Mate 3 meter 
on the truck, we use it to program the controller, and then pull the 
meter. It holds all its programming, and this saves the customer 
$600.00.  They can monitor with the amp hr meter (Magnum or Trimetric)


Its not the best solution, and I find it annoying that Outback's most 
expensive controller does not have an onboard screen like the much lower 
cost little FMs.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 10/19/20 12:55 PM, Jay wrote:
On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an 
inverter.


It might be what Brad was mentioning.

Jay



On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:


Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't 
know of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S.


The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external 
GFDI, like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the 
little black wire with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block.


The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able 
the Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and 
purple terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the 
RSS has been activated. I love this one for my students, when their 
homework before lab class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions 
and make notes! I can easily tell if they actually did LOL.


Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d anbo...@gmail.com 


970-672-4342

On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett > wrote:


I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s
to communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and
am not at a computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a
look at the manual to see if they mention it.

Brad


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[Bradley Bassett]

Jay, thanks yes that is correct, it was a jumper to allow the FNDC to work.
I had no trouble connecting a Mate3s to the FM100-AFCI.

Brad

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:37 PM Jay  wrote:

> On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an
> inverter.
>
> It might be what Brad was mentioning.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> 
> Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know
> of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S.
>
> The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI,
> like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire
> with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block.
>
> The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the
> Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple
> terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been
> activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab
> class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily
> tell if they actually did LOL.
>
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett 
> wrote:
>
>> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to
>> communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a
>> computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to
>> see if they mention it.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Software?

[Garrison]

Hi Kelly,

If the application is more commercial then I would probably recommend 
Helioscope as well.

Aurora is a great residential layout and shading program.  Beyond that the 
functionality is a bit clunky and I’ve noticed a number of inaccuracies in some 
of their calculations...and a sharpie on a bar napkin would produce a better 
single line diagram :).

Best,
Garrison

> On Oct 19, 2020, at 2:24 PM, Philip Lawes Insoltech  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Aurora
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Philip N Lawes
> 172 Wave St.
> Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651
> Office: 949-497-6300
> Cell:  949-510-0687
> Email: p...@insoltechsolar.com
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Kelly Larson
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:34 AM
> To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software?
>  
> Hi y'all, 
> 
> Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I 
> can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - 
> some roof and some ground mount.  The software needs to layout strings for 
> string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show 
> distances. 
> 
> Suggestions? 
> 
> Thank you in advance, 
> Kelly
> 
> ~~~
> 
> Kelly Larson
> 707-223-3209
> Box 18094
> Reno, NV 89511
> Electrical Engineer
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™
> NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™
> IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV  
> CA Electrical Contractor# 868189
> Solar Energy International Instructor
> SolarKelly.com
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Will White]

That's a really interesting failure mode. I would have thought the
fasteners would have pulled out but I guess it makes sense that the metal
ripped.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold
> the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It
> is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few
> clamps.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White  wrote:
>
>> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
>> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
>> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
>> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Will
>>
>>   --
>> *Will White*
>> Curriculum Developer
>>
>>
>> e: w...@solarenergy.org
>> w: www.solarenergy.org
>> 
>>
>> p: 802-272-3092
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> # 093006-34
>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large
>>> system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane
>>> Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
>>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
>>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
>>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.
>>>
>>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know
>>> what the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Wrenches
 I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
 instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
 no different than anything else installed on the roof.
 Jerry

 On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
 offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off
> with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>
> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only
> thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
> hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
> stronger than the roofing.
>
> --
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Software?

[Philip Lawes Insoltech]

Aurora

 

 

 



Philip N Lawes

172 Wave St.

Laguna Beach, Ca. 92651

Office: 949-497-6300

Cell:  949-510-0687

Email: p...@insoltechsolar.com

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Kelly Larson
Sent: Monday, October 19, 2020 9:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Design Software?

 

Hi y'all, 

Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software I can 
recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly commercial systems - some 
roof and some ground mount.  The software needs to layout strings for string 
inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and show distances. 

Suggestions? 

Thank you in advance, 
Kelly 

~~~

Kelly Larson
707-223-3209
Box 18094
Reno, NV 89511
Electrical Engineer 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™

NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™

NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™

IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV   

CA Electrical Contractor# 868189

Solar Energy International Instructor

SolarKelly.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold
the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It
is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few
clamps.



On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White  wrote:

> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
>   --
> *Will White*
> Curriculum Developer
>
>
> e: w...@solarenergy.org
> w: www.solarenergy.org
> 
>
> p: 802-272-3092
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> # 093006-34
> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
> 
> .
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system
>> (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma.
>> It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.
>>
>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what
>> the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches
>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
>>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
>>> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>>
 The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with
 a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.

 I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing
 that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.



 *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
 
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*

 On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
 hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
 without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
 beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
 stronger than the roofing.

 --
 Hilton Dier III
 Missisquoi River Hydro
 Renewable Energy Design

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>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[Jay]

On page 71 there is a small note about hooking up a FNDC without an inverter. 

It might be what Brad was mentioning. 

Jay 


> On Oct 19, 2020, at 12:48 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know of 
> a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S.
> 
> The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI, like 
> a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire with 2 
> red spade connectors under the terminal block. 
> 
> The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the 
> Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple 
> terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been 
> activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab 
> class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily 
> tell if they actually did LOL.
> 
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
> danbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
> 
>  
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett  wrote:
>> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to 
>> communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a 
>> computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to 
>> see if they mention it.
>> 
>> Brad
>> 
>> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Software?

[Andrew Truitt]

Hi Kelly!  I'm a fan of Helioscope, particularly for commercial
applications.  For projects with multiple roof pitches and/or partial
shading, Aurora works pretty well.


Regards,

Andrew Truitt

www.dr.ventures
d: 202.486.7507

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66
Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132



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On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 10:33 AM Kelly Larson  wrote:

> Hi y'all,
>
> Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what software
> I can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly commercial
> systems - some roof and some ground mount.  The software needs to layout
> strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, conductor sizes, etc, and
> show distances.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Kelly
>
> ~~~
> Kelly Larson
> 707-223-3209
> Box 18094
> Reno, NV 89511
> Electrical Engineer
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™
> NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™
> IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV
> CA Electrical Contractor# 868189
> Solar Energy International Instructor
> SolarKelly.com
> ___
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>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[Dan Fink]

Maybe Brad is referring to the GFDI jumper or the RSS jumper? I don't know
of a jumper to activate comms with the Mate 3S.

The former is for bonding and you remove it if you use an external GFDI,
like a Midnite GFCI in a Midnite MNDC enclosure. It's the little black wire
with 2 red spade connectors under the terminal block.

The RSS jumper you have to make out of a scrap of wire to DIS-able the
Flexmax 100 internal RSS trigger. It goes between the yellow and purple
terminal blocks. If you don't install it, the CC assumes the RSS has been
activated. I love this one for my students, when their homework before lab
class is to *thoroughly* read the instructions and make notes! I can easily
tell if they actually did LOL.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 8:11 AM Bradley Bassett  wrote:

> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to
> communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a
> computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to
> see if they mention it.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Kent Osterberg]

William,

More S5 standing seam attachments spreads the load onto more of the 
metal roof fasteners. In Oregon, the Structural Code, requires a 
standing seam attachment every 24" maximum. Since the common standing 
seam panels are 16" wide that means one attachment per seam -- a lot of 
attachments. Never had one come off even with 32" or 48" spacing, 
previous to current code, but I'm not in area that gets serious winds.


S5 also makes attachments designed for other types of metal roofs, the 
mix of discussion of standing seam clamps and clamps design to attached 
to decking or to purlins has made this topic a bit difficult to follow.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar



On 10/19/2020 7:15 AM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

I have figured that the best way to improve a standing seam 
installation is to add more S5 clips. Each seam has a finite number of 
fasteners into the sheeting. Therefore if you attach to more seams you 
attach to more fasteners into the deck.


We double the required number of clips at the perimeters and always 
stagger our clip pattern to attach to the maximum number of seams.


Does this logic make sense?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com


On Oct 19, 2020, at 5:16 AM, Will White  wrote:


It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told 
customers that the roof will come off the building with the array 
attached before the array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the 
issue was with the attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the 
building.


Thanks,
Will

  --
*Will White*
Curriculum Developer


e: w...@solarenergy.org 
w: www.solarenergy.org 
p: 802-272-3092

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
# 093006-34
Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change 
.




On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski 
> wrote:


I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a
large system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof
during Hurricane Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels,
rails, and S-5s were still connected, sitting on the ground with
chunks of metal roofing still attached to the S-5s. It was quite
the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a bit, but the client built a
ground rack after this.

To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't
know what the spacing was on the clamps, either.


On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenches
I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as
the instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if
installed correctly are no different than anything else
installed on the roof.
Jerry

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>> wrote:

The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them
come off with a string of panels on an insurance
inspection I did.

I billed them and made another note in my journal of why
the only thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.

  


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/


e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III
mailto:hiltond...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails
work well without punching holes in the metal roof. If
the roof is fastened well to beefy steel C channel it
should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are stronger
than the roofing.

-- 
Hilton Dier III

Missisquoi River Hydro
Renewable Energy Design


--
*Will White*
Curriculum Developer


e: w...@solarenergy.org 
w: www.solarenergy.org 
p: 802-272-3092

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
# 093006-34
Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change 
.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[Tuss, Lones]

Hello All
Hi William
I just tried my Mate3S in to my FM100AFCI and it does see the FM100 and all the 
screen are available.
Here is a screen shot from the Quick Start Guide
http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/charge_controllers/flexmax_100_afci/fm100_afci_qsg.pdf
There are 2 ports on the FM both will accept a cat5 comm cable use the left 
port.


[cid:image002.jpg@01D6A5FF.E10C46D0]


From: William Miller 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 9:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Tuss, Lones 
Subject: Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

Friends:

I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003.  The system has 
an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not communicate with the 
FM100 as this was made clear from the literature.

I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and see 
data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank.  It only showed the 
battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion.

I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the Mate3S.  
Still no display.

I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how.  It 
used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of 
normality displayed.  Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the inverters 
connected and get FM100 data?  Any ideas out there?

Thanks in advanced.

William

PS:  The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue.

Wm

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985




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[RE-wrenches] Design Software?

[Kelly Larson]

Hi y'all,

Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what 
software I can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly 
commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount.  The software 
needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, 
conductor sizes, etc, and show distances.


Suggestions?

Thank you in advance,
Kelly

~~~

Kelly Larson
707-223-3209
Box 18094
Reno, NV 89511
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™
NABCEP Certified PV Installer Specialist™
NABCEP Certified PV Commissioning & Maintenance Specialist™
IREC Certified Master Trainer™/ PV
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189
Solar Energy International Instructor
SolarKelly.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws

[August Goers]

This topic surfaces from time to time on Wrenches. We've had good luck with
S-5! CorruBrackets, which use self tappers into the sheet metal. I see that
S-5! has a few newer similar products as well:

https://s-5.com/products/clamps-brackets/

As mentioned on previous posts, the pullout for self tappers is
surprisingly high. You need to verify how the metal roof is fastened to the
support structure, so it is not the weak link.

August


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 4:31 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jay:
>
>
>
> Look again.  There are fasteners for metal purlins.  One is the JT3-SB-8.0
> with FZD sealing washer and the other is the JT3-SB-8.0 with storm washer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jay
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2020 2:23 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws
>
>
>
> Hi Jerry
>
>
>
> I thought about it.
>
> But they are $5 each
>
> Not rated for L feet
>
> Have 4 holes vs 1 hole
>
> There is no underlayment as it’s a barn
>
>
>
> Using polybutylene tape and or caulk, it’s a pretty solid way to keep
> water out and with the self tapping bolts is more secure to me ( thanks
> Allan).
>
>
>
> The parts that William suggested are designed for metal roof over wood
> substructure, not applicable in this case.
>
>
>
> I’ll just look for the right self driving lag bolt
>
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 17, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay  wrote:
>
> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not
> corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet
>
> Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be
> possible but quite time consuming.
> A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier
> than nut and bolt.
>
> But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to
> be bolted?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Design Software?

[Kelly Larson]

Hi y'all,

Since I haven't been doing layout/design recently, I wonder what 
software I can recommend to a client.  He is a newbie doing mostly 
commercial systems - some roof and some ground mount.  The software 
needs to layout strings for string inverters, calc voltage drop, 
conductor sizes, etc, and show distances.


Suggestions?

Thank you in advance,
Kelly
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[William Miller]

Friends:

I have figured that the best way to improve a standing seam installation is to 
add more S5 clips. Each seam has a finite number of fasteners into the 
sheeting. Therefore if you attach to more seams you attach to more fasteners 
into the deck. 

We double the required number of clips at the perimeters and always stagger our 
clip pattern to attach to the maximum number of seams. 

Does this logic make sense?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Oct 19, 2020, at 5:16 AM, Will White  wrote:
> 
> 
> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers that 
> the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the array 
> comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the attachment (or 
> lack of) between the roof and the building. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Will
> 
>   -- 
> Will White
> Curriculum Developer
> 
> 
> e: w...@solarenergy.org 
> w: www.solarenergy.org 
> p: 802-272-3092
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> # 093006-34
> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski 
>>  wrote:
>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system 
>> (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma. 
>> It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still 
>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still attached 
>> to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a bit, but the 
>> client built a ground rack after this.
>> 
>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what 
>> the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer  
>>> wrote:
>>> Wrenches
>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the instalation" 
>>> but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are no different 
>>> than anything else installed on the roof.
>>> Jerry
>>> 
 On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
  wrote:
 The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a 
 string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
 
 I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing 
 that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
 
  
 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060
> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well 
> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to 
> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are 
> stronger than the roofing.
> 
> -- 
> Hilton Dier III
> Missisquoi River Hydro
> Renewable Energy Design
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing Outback 100 series C with old FX system

[John Blittersdorf]

William, I don’t think the fm100 will be visible unless you reboot the
whole system with inverter attached to port 1 of hub, mate3s attached to
mate terminal in hub and fm100 plugged into port 2 of hub.  I’ve done this
numerous times and you can program the fm 100.  However, I have never left
an fm100 without a mate3.  Not sure if the charge controller will just keep
running blind when you unplug the mate 3s.  You could try it and see if if
it shows charging on a trimetric or with a clamp meter.  Yes, a mate3s and
fm100 and hub is quite a financial bite when just looking for higher
voltage or higher amperage controller.

John Blittersdorf



On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:11 AM Bradley Bassett 
wrote:

> I think there is a jumper in the FM100 that will allow the Mate3s to
> communicate with it. I don't remember off hand where it is and am not at a
> computer with that info, but maybe this will prompt a look at the manual to
> see if they mention it.
>
> Brad
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 11:11 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I installed a Flexmax 100 today in a dual FX system circa 2003.  The
>> system has an oval Mate and it is no surprise the old Mate does not
>> communicate with the FM100 as this was made clear from the literature.
>>
>>
>>
>> I plugged in a new Mate3S directly into the FM100 hoping to connect and
>> see data, but alas, the display was almost entirely blank.  It only showed
>> the battery voltage which was 500 volts, which I guess is a promotion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I then tried plugging the FM100 into a Hub 10.3 and then into the
>> Mate3S.  Still no display.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’d like to field-check the FM100 with a Mate3 or 3S but don’t know how.
>> It used to be you could plug an MX60 into a Mate and get some semblance of
>> normality displayed.  Can I swap out the old hub with a 10.3 with the
>> inverters connected and get FM100 data?  Any ideas out there?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> PS:  The FM100 is charging so that is not an issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>> 
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Will White]

It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.

Thanks,
Will

  --
*Will White*
Curriculum Developer


e: w...@solarenergy.org
w: www.solarenergy.org
p: 802-272-3092

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
# 093006-34
Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
.



On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system
> (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma.
> It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.
>
> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what
> the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Wrenches
>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
>> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with
>>> a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>>>
>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing
>>> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>> 
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
>>> hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
>>> stronger than the roofing.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Hilton Dier III
>>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>>> Renewable Energy Design
>>>
>>> ___
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