Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Blake Gleason]

Oops, I meant "non-Tesla-Direct certified installers like us" (ie,
independent Tesla dealers, versus Tesla's internal installation group) in
the message below.  (Thanks Marco!)

Blake Gleason, PE
Director of Innovation
& Technical Excellence
Sun Light & Power

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:40 PM Blake Gleason 
wrote:

> Jason,
>
> They announced that Tesla Direct would stop offering standalone Powerwall
> installs, and would only take orders for PV+Powerwall.
>
> That announcement has confused just about everyone because Tesla marketing
> is very LOUD and generally ignores the existence of non-Tesla certified
> installers like us.
>
> Again,  frustrating, but not surprising...
>
> Blake Gleason, PE
> Director of Innovation
> & Technical Excellence
> Sun Light & Power
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:55 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell
>> the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV
>> from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent
>> dealers.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you.
>>>
>>> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp
>>> production.
>>>
>>> Thanks for responding.
>>>
>>> marco
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi Marco,

 After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our
 supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken
 zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
 customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
 getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
 with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
 quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
 shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
 extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.

 Best,
 Blake

 On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
 wrote:

> Aloha all,
>
> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m
> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with
> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up
> switch”?
>
> Thanks,
> marco
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 --

 Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
 Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
 O: 510-845-2997 x128
 C: 510-867-5878

 1035 Folger Ave.
 
 Berkeley, CA 94710
 
 www.sunlightandpower.com
 License #326203

  
 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Blake Gleason]

Jason,

They announced that Tesla Direct would stop offering standalone Powerwall
installs, and would only take orders for PV+Powerwall.

That announcement has confused just about everyone because Tesla marketing
is very LOUD and generally ignores the existence of non-Tesla certified
installers like us.

Again,  frustrating, but not surprising...

Blake Gleason, PE
Director of Innovation
& Technical Excellence
Sun Light & Power

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 5:55 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell
> the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV
> from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent
> dealers.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you.
>>
>> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp
>> production.
>>
>> Thanks for responding.
>>
>> marco
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marco,
>>>
>>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our
>>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken
>>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
>>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
>>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
>>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
>>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
>>> shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
>>> extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Blake
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Aloha all,

 For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m
 curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with
 Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up
 switch”?

 Thanks,
 marco
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
>>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
>>> O: 510-845-2997 x128
>>> C: 510-867-5878
>>>
>>> 1035 Folger Ave.
>>> 
>>> Berkeley, CA 94710
>>> 
>>> www.sunlightandpower.com
>>> License #326203
>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Tesla continues to maintain their Certified Installer network. Tesla Direct
sells direct to the consumer/homeowner in a number of geographic
territories.

marco

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell
> the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV
> from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent
> dealers.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
> wrote:
>
>> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you.
>>
>> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp
>> production.
>>
>> Thanks for responding.
>>
>> marco
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Marco,
>>>
>>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our
>>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken
>>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
>>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
>>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
>>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
>>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
>>> shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
>>> extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Blake
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Aloha all,

 For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m
 curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with
 Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up
 switch”?

 Thanks,
 marco
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>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
>>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
>>> O: 510-845-2997 x128
>>> C: 510-867-5878
>>>
>>> 1035 Folger Ave.
>>> 
>>> Berkeley, CA 94710
>>> 
>>> www.sunlightandpower.com
>>> License #326203
>>>
>>>  
>>> 
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[William Miller]

Rebekah:



Thanks for your help with this.



Because I snapped up all of the 100 series rack I could (pun intended), I
am past the recertification with newer modules.  My argument is that
although the rail was discontinued, the clips remain.  What  I did is
extracted a page from the UR series manual showing testing with the Mission
panels and inserted it into the permit set.  I hope this sleight of hand
passes plan check.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 20, 2021 6:20 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification



Minor update, I got word from Snapnrack that: "The new protocol established
with UL eliminates the need to include the wattage ranges for each module
type"

Still a pain and the manufacturer/model should be on the rack manufacturer
list - but not down to the precise wattage -  so slightly less of a pain.



Rebekah

Tel: 336.266.8800





On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:37 PM Rebekah Hren  wrote:

Hi William



Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual

on
pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules

I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that
includes that module.

I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite
resistance measurements.



Good luck,

Rebekah

Tel: 336.266.8800





On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson 
wrote:

The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with
Type 1 and Type 2 modules.

https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf

*SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a
Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the
standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.*



The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf



For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different
module "types" that are tested.

https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/

*The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be
required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that
are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and
size of module.*





*Sam Haraldson *

Installation & Service Manager



|

o. (406) 551-6135















On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller 
wrote:

Friends:



I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:



*Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system
documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The
UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack
to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond
the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC
690.43(B).*



Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module?
I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels.
Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request?



I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week
or more to respond.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[Barton Churchill]

Glad you found it, Jay. You also don’t need to match the length of AC 
conductors on paralleled inverters.


[cidb2f78c46-71ed-4265-93ae-19555889454e]Barton Churchill
Director, Power Division
2042 Stadium Drive Suite 2 • Bozeman, MT 59715 • (O) 406-587-2917 • (D) 
406-589-4493
235 E. Broadway • Jackson, WY 83001 • (O) 307-200-2210
bchurch...@energy-1.net   |
www.energy-1.net


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of jay 

Reply-To: RE-wrenches 
Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 at 7:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

HI Barton,

Thanks for the explanation, and it confirms that battery one is doing more work 
than #6.

jay




On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Barton Churchill 
mailto:bchurch...@energy-1.net>> wrote:

I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve 
installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to 
cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter 
without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% 
SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per 
month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly 
sized, really doesn’t matter anymore.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[jay]

Can WEEBS be used instead?

jay

peltz power





> On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:37 PM, Rebekah Hren  wrote:
> 
> Hi William
> 
> Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual 
> 
>  on pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules
> I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that 
> includes that module. 
> I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite 
> resistance measurements. 
> 
> Good luck, 
> Rebekah
> Tel: 336.266.8800
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson  > wrote:
> The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with Type 
> 1 and Type 2 modules.  
> https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf
>  
> 
> SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a 
> Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the 
> standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.
> 
> The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703.  
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf
>  
> 
> 
> For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different 
> module "types" that are tested.
> https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/ 
> 
> The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be required 
> during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that are 
> determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and size 
> of module.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sam Haraldson    
> Installation & Service Manager
>  
> | o. (406) 551-6135   
>   
> 
>    
>   
>  
> 
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller  > wrote:
> Friends:
> 
>  
> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:
> 
>  
> Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system documenting 
> that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The UL 2703 
> listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack to 
> functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond the 
> metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC 690.43(B).
> 
>  
> 
> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module? I 
> am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels.  Does 
> anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request?
> 
>  
> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week 
> or more to respond.
> 
>  
> Thanks in advance.
> 
>  
> William Miller
> 
>  
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
>  
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[RE-wrenches] outback grid tie low selling update

[jay]

The update is that indeed the inverter was set at 3.7 instead of the 18 amps 
that it should have been.

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[jay]

HI Barton,

Thanks for the explanation, and it confirms that battery one is doing more work 
than #6.  

jay



> On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:53 PM, Barton Churchill  wrote:
> 
> I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve 
> installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention 
> to cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter 
> without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 
> 10% SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least 
> once per month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming 
> properly sized, really doesn’t matter anymore. 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[Rebekah Hren]

Minor update, I got word from Snapnrack that: "The new protocol established
with UL eliminates the need to include the wattage ranges for each module
type"
Still a pain and the manufacturer/model should be on the rack manufacturer
list - but not down to the precise wattage -  so slightly less of a pain.

Rebekah
Tel: 336.266.8800



On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 4:37 PM Rebekah Hren  wrote:

> Hi William
>
> Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation
> manual
> 
>  on
> pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules
> I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that
> includes that module.
> I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite
> resistance measurements.
>
> Good luck,
> Rebekah
> Tel: 336.266.8800
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson 
> wrote:
>
>> The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with
>> Type 1 and Type 2 modules.
>>
>>
>> https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf
>>
>> *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for
>> a Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with
>> the standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.*
>>
>>
>> The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703.
>>
>>
>> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf
>>
>>
>> For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the
>> different module "types" that are tested.
>>
>> https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/
>>
>> *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be
>> required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that
>> are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and
>> size of module.*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sam Haraldson 
>> Installation & Service Manager
>> 
>>
>> | o. (406) 551-6135
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system
>>> documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The
>>> UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack
>>> to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond
>>> the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC
>>> 690.43(B).*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of
>>> module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K
>>> panels.  Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this
>>> request?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a
>>> week or more to respond.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William Miller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Jason Szumlanski]

Didn't Tesla explicitly cut off it's dealer network and essentially tell
the world that they are only selling Powerwalls direct with purchase of PV
from Tesla? I thought Powerwall was essentially dead to smaller independent
dealers.

Jason


On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:13 PM Marco Mangelsdorf  wrote:

> Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you.
>
> I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp
> production.
>
> Thanks for responding.
>
> marco
>
> On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Marco,
>>
>> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our
>> supply from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken
>> zero deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
>> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
>> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
>> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
>> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
>> shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
>> extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.
>>
>> Best,
>> Blake
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Aloha all,
>>>
>>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m
>>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with
>>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up
>>> switch”?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> marco
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
>> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
>> O: 510-845-2997 x128
>> C: 510-867-5878
>>
>> 1035 Folger Ave.
>> 
>> Berkeley, CA 94710
>> 
>> www.sunlightandpower.com
>> License #326203
>>
>>  
>> 
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Wow, Blake. I'm stunned and really feel for you.

I can only hope that Elon and crew are able to significantly ramp
production.

Thanks for responding.

marco

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, Blake Gleason  wrote:

> Hi Marco,
>
> After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our supply
> from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken zero
> deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
> customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
> getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
> with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
> quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
> shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
> extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.
>
> Best,
> Blake
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
> wrote:
>
>> Aloha all,
>>
>> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m
>> curious as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with
>> Powerwalls and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up
>> switch”?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> marco
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
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>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
> Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
> O: 510-845-2997 x128
> C: 510-867-5878
>
> 1035 Folger Ave.
> 
> Berkeley, CA 94710
> 
> www.sunlightandpower.com
> License #326203
>
>  
> 
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Blake Gleason]

Hi Marco,

After installing a bunch of Powerwalls over the last few years, our supply
from Tesla dried up completely about one year ago.  We have taken zero
deliveries of Powerwalls in the last 12 months, with many dozens of
customers who expected their batteries for LAST fire season and are now not
getting their batteries in time for THIS fire season either.  We check in
with our rep all the time, and the story is the same ("Maybe next
quarter??") with different excuses (pandemic, unanticipated demand, chip
shortage, etc).  We don't feel that we have any leverage, and it's
extremely frustrating.  Predictable, but still frustrating.

Best,
Blake

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 1:47 PM Marco Mangelsdorf 
wrote:

> Aloha all,
>
> For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m curious
> as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with Powerwalls
> and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up switch”?
>
> Thanks,
> marco
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
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> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>

-- 

Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
O: 510-845-2997 x128
C: 510-867-5878

1035 Folger Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94710
www.sunlightandpower.com
License #326203

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[Barton Churchill]

I think you’ll find it stated in the Blue Planet installation manual. I’ve 
installed dozens of their systems over three years and never paid attention to 
cable length. One solar self consumption system I let run over the winter 
without ever reaching a full charge and the cabinets didn’t drift more than 10% 
SOC from each other. Blue planet does recommend a full charge at least once per 
month for balancing though. Matched cable length, again assuming properly 
sized, really doesn’t matter anymore.

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of jay 

Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:13:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

HI Barton,

OK so please explain how the BMU/BMS is controlling watt hrs between the 
batteries as I’ve not heard that this is possible.

The batteries are Blue planet

jay



On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Barton Churchill < 
bchurch...@energy-1.net> wrote:

If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly 
for their output it does not matter.

From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 on behalf of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths



Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not
do this Jay?


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay 
mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from
> furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go
from
> 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect.
>
> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all
the
> same length?
>
> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no
> worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than
> battery 6
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: 
> https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1
>
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> RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
the
> other:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[jay]

HI Barton,

OK so please explain how the BMU/BMS is controlling watt hrs between the 
batteries as I’ve not heard that this is possible.

The batteries are Blue planet

jay



> On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:04 PM, Barton Churchill  wrote:
> 
> If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly 
> for their output it does not matter.
> From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths
>  
> Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not
> do this Jay?
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1
>  
> 
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay  wrote:
> > Hi all
> > 
> > I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from
> > furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go
> from
> > 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. 
> > 
> > What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all
> the
> > same length?  
> > 
> > How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no
> > worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than
> > battery 6 
> > 
> > Thanks 
> > 
> > Jay
> > 
> > Peltz power. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> > 
> > Pay optional member dues here: 
> > https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=re-wrenches.org&u=aHR0cDovL3JlLXdyZW5jaGVzLm9yZw==&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZzJIYlNiOVpTSk1sdVJlYWs3Tk1hSWhlMC9yRjMyQjN1LzZEOE9Pa3drZz0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1
> >  
> > 
> > 
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> > 
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> >  
> > 
> > 
> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[jay]

HI Dave,

Not my design, but I”m checking for him

jay

> On Jul 20, 2021, at 4:02 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not
> do this Jay?
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay  wrote:
>> Hi all
>> 
>> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from
>> furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go
> from
>> 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. 
>> 
>> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all
> the
>> same length?  
>> 
>> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no
>> worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than
>> battery 6 
>> 
>> Thanks 
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> Peltz power. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[Rebekah Hren]

Hi William

Groan, I don't see that precise model in the series 100 installation manual

on
pg 74 which is the bonding evaluation list of modules
I hope for your sake Snapnrack will send an email the AHJ will accept that
includes that module.
I wish there was a reasonable workaround for AHJs here, like onsite
resistance measurements.

Good luck,
Rebekah
Tel: 336.266.8800



On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 2:36 PM Sam Haraldson 
wrote:

> The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with
> Type 1 and Type 2 modules.
>
>
> https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf
>
> *SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a
> Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the
> standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.*
>
>
> The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703.
>
>
> https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf
>
>
> For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the
> different module "types" that are tested.
>
> https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/
>
> *The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be
> required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that
> are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and
> size of module.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sam Haraldson 
> Installation & Service Manager
> 
>
> | o. (406) 551-6135
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:
>>
>>
>>
>> *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system
>> documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The
>> UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack
>> to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond
>> the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC
>> 690.43(B).*
>>
>>
>>
>> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of
>> module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K
>> panels.  Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this
>> request?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a
>> week or more to respond.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[Barton Churchill]

If each lithium battery has an internal BMU and your wires are sized properly 
for their output it does not matter.

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2021 4:02:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not
do this Jay?


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
https://us-west-2.protection.sophos.com?d=sti.net&u=aHR0cDovL21lbWJlcnMuc3RpLm5ldC9vZmZncmlkc29sYXIv&i=NWY3Yjg4NTEwMTMzZWYwZjc4ZDZiZjM0&t=ZURpZGJ5TUxIbHJ6RnlSV1R6dVh6R2ZzMXM1dktRb2kxakRuQzRYa1hwMD0=&h=6f930d7a17ae43adac2b296e969243f1
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay  wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from
> furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go
from
> 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect.
>
> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all
the
> same length?
>
> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no
> worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than
> battery 6
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Seems wrong to me! The lengths need to be very close.  Why would you not
do this Jay?


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 14:58:10 -0600, Jay  wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from
> furthest battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go
from
> 0-12’ plus to the combiner/ disconnect. 
> 
> What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all
the
> same length?  
> 
> How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no
> worries. Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than
> battery 6 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz power. 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[Sam Haraldson]

The SnapNrack UL 2703 document highlights it's UL listing when used with
Type 1 and Type 2 modules.

https://snapnrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/SnapNrack_Fire_Classification_Tech_Bulletin_v.2-1.pdf

*SnapNrack Series 100, Ultra Rail and RL systems have been Certified for a
Class A fire rating with Type 1 and Type 2 modules, in accordance with the
standards set forth in UL1703/2703 and IBC 2012.*


The Mission Spec sheet references that it is UL listed under 1703.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ecodirect_docs/Mission-Solar/Mission-Solar-MSE320SR8T-datasheet.pdf


For further reference this 1703 document talks a little about the different
module "types" that are tested.

https://www.intertek.com/building/standards/ul-1703/

*The “Type” of module dictates the number of fire tests that will be
required during the test process, there are 3 common types (15 total) that
are determined by their superstrate, encapsulant, substrate materials, and
size of module.*






Sam Haraldson 
Installation & Service Manager


| o. (406) 551-6135








On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 3:25 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:
>
>
>
> *Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system
> documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The
> UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack
> to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond
> the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC
> 690.43(B).*
>
>
>
> Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of
> module? I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K
> panels.  Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this
> request?
>
>
>
> I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a
> week or more to respond.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Snap-n-rack bonding certification

[William Miller]

Friends:



I received the following correction noticed from a hired plan-checker:



*Please provide the technical listing for the support rail system
documenting that the supports have been tested with the PERC 60 panels. The
UL 2703 listing requires the two to be tested/listed together for the rack
to functionally ground the solar panels. [CEC 690.43(A)] Alternately, bond
the metal parts of PV equipment to grounded metal supports per CEC
690.43(B).*



Is it true that UL2703 requires testing with each and every type of module?
I am using 100 Series rail from my stock with Mission MSE325SR8K panels.
Does anyone have any documentation on file that would satisfy this request?



I have sent an inquiry to Snap-n-rack about this but they often take a week
or more to respond.



Thanks in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium battery cable lengths

[Jay]

Hi all

I’ve got a design for a lithium battery that has a 12’ longer run from furthest 
battery vs closer battery. 6 batteries in all. So lengths go from 0-12’ plus to 
the combiner/ disconnect. 

What is the feeling about running different lengths vs making them all the same 
length?  

How would this effect use of the batteries. Tech support has said no worries. 
Seems to me that physics says battery 1 gets more work than battery 6 

Thanks 

Jay

Peltz power. 



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[RE-wrenches] Tesla Powerwalls

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Aloha all,

For those of you, like me, who are Tesla Certified Installers, I’m curious
as to 1) how well you feel you’re being adequately supplied with Powerwalls
and 2) whether any of you have installed their new “back up switch”?

Thanks,
marco
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Jason Szumlanski]

This all seems to greatly advantage "ac battery" systems like the Powerwall
and AC Coupling of PV when it comes to codes and standards.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 3:37 PM Eric Smiley  wrote:

> Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi
> https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/
>
> You should ask for documentation.
>
> NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the
> off-grid market drastically.
> Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together
> per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too -
> mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc.
> components will likely be verboten.
> To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU
> manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the
> combination.
>
> Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared
> to certify lead acid batteries right now.
>
> The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well,
> since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications,
> which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can
> be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no
> idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost.
> So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of
> energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in
> utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the
> limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo.
>
> We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well.
> As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually
> ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries.
>
> In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the
> battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540.
>
> Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi.
> Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover
> Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners
> Sol-Ark has a long list on their website.
>
>
> *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
> e...@vecoop.ca
> T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA *
>
> * *
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like California Loren?
>>
>> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>>
>> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>>
>>
>> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
>> batteries stating:
>> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
>> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
>> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
>> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
>> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
>> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
>> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
>> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
>> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
>> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
>> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
>> project.*
>>
>> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
>> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
>> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
>> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
>> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>> --
>>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
>> 
>>
>>
>> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>>
>> Board Member & Worker Owner
>>
>> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>>
>> Office: (530) 274-3671
>>
>> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>>
>> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
>> [image: NABCEP] 
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi all, my experiance, is a Lead Acid battery is acceptable under 480
Storage Batteries.  480 is the older article and Lead Acid has been used
with great success particularly under 48 volts with no outside disconnect
required. 480.7(A&B)

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 2:37 PM Eric Smiley  wrote:

> Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi
> https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/
>
> You should ask for documentation.
>
> NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the
> off-grid market drastically.
> Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together
> per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too -
> mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc.
> components will likely be verboten.
> To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU
> manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the
> combination.
>
> Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared
> to certify lead acid batteries right now.
>
> The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well,
> since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications,
> which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can
> be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no
> idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost.
> So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of
> energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in
> utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the
> limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo.
>
> We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well.
> As North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually
> ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries.
>
> In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the
> battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540.
>
> Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi.
> Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover
> Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners
> Sol-Ark has a long list on their website.
>
>
> *Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
> e...@vecoop.ca
> T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
> T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
> *VIRIDIANENERGY.CA *
>
> * *
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like California Loren?
>>
>> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>>
>> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>>
>>
>> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
>> batteries stating:
>> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
>> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
>> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
>> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
>> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
>> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
>> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
>> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
>> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
>> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
>> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
>> project.*
>>
>> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
>> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
>> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
>> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
>> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>
>> --
>>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
>> 
>>
>>
>> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>>
>> Board Member & Worker Owner
>>
>> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>>
>> Office: (530) 274-3671
>>
>> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>>
>> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
>> [image: NABCEP] 
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwoo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Bill Hennessy]

Hi Lorenzo--Simpliphi's website has a a blurb about their batteries being 9540 
listed with Sol-Ark. Here's the link:
SimpliPhi AccESS Sol-Ark integrated energy storage & management

| 
| 
| 
|  |  |

 |

 |
| 
|  | 
SimpliPhi AccESS Sol-Ark integrated energy storage & management

SimpliPhi your power with AccESS to a fully integrated energy storage & 
management solution with Sol-Ark Power e...
 |

 |

 |




Maybe the paperwork is in the mail.
As a side note, we did two Sol-Arks with Simpliphi last year and it works fine. 
Sol-Ark has recently added a generator test start function to its firmware. The 
system 15kW generator starts and runs for 20 minutes every Monday morning. The 
system remains grid-tied, so the genny is getting no load exercise.

regards, bill

Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com 

 

Bill Hennessy
Berks Solar, LLC
371 Centennial Rd
Mertztown, PA 19539

o 610 682 4300
c 484 560 4666
NABCEP certified installer
PA contractor #44411
www.berkssolar.com 

On Tuesday, July 20, 2021, 1:23:26 PM EDT, Lorenzo Ortiz 
 wrote:  
 
 Wrenches,
We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi 
batteries stating:"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 
per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The 
Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per UL 
1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other components 
associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL 9540. Please 
provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized 
Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all 
components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the 
batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such 
system cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per 
UL 9540 must be chosen for the project.
Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong 
about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the 
batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any 
documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi 
have recently put out documentation regarding this.
Thanks in advance for your help.

-- 
       
Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist

Board Member & Worker Owner

lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop

Office: (530) 274-3671  

Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624

Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 
      




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Eric Smiley]

Sol-Ark says it has UL9540 with Simpli-Phi
https://www.sol-ark.com/battery-partners/

You should ask for documentation.

NFPA 855 and the new electrical code rules are going to change the off-grid
market drastically.
Not only do you need the inverter and battery certified to work together
per UL9540, the charge controller has to be part of the system too -
mixing MidNite, Morningstar, Outback, Magnum, Schneider, Victron, etc.
components will likely be verboten.
To make it more confusing, only one manufacturer - either the inverter/PCU
manufacturer or the battery manufacturer gets the UL9540 listing for the
combination.

Also, there are apparently no NRTL agencies that are equipped or prepared
to certify lead acid batteries right now.

The size/threshold limitations in NFPA 855 may pose some problems as well,
since exceeding them either requires UL 9540A cell level certifications,
which few if any battery manufacturers have yet, or I've been told they can
be exceeded if a fire propagation study is conducted on site. But I have no
idea who would be qualified to do that or how much it would cost.
So, it looks like 1 and 2 family dwellings will be limited to 80 kWh of
energy storage if located in attached or detached garages and 40 kWh if in
utility closets, storage spaces, etc. So, ~800 Ah at ~50V appears to be the
limit. And using lead acid batteries seems to be in limbo.

We are struggling with understanding the implications in Canada as well. As
North America harmonizes standards, UL9540 and UL1973 are actually
ANSI/CAN/UL standards and thus apply in both countries.

In a nutshell: the inverter/charge controller is listed to UL1741, the
battery to UL1973, and the combination to UL9540.

Outback systems are UL9540 with SimpiPhi.
Schneider Conext systems are UL9540 with Discover
Magnum doesn't appear to have any UL9540 battery partners
Sol-Ark has a long list on their website.


*Eric Smiley,* Project Manager
e...@vecoop.ca
T: 250.703.6004 <+12507036004>
T: 888.386.0116 <+18883860116>
*VIRIDIANENERGY.CA *

* *


On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 11:05, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Sounds like California Loren?
>
> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>
> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>
>
> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
> wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
>
> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
> batteries stating:
> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
> project.*
>
> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> --
>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
> 
>
>
> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>
> Board Member & Worker Owner
>
> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>
> Office: (530) 274-3671
>
> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>
> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
> [image: NABCEP] 
>
>
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List r

Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Mac Lewis]

Yes, NEC is vague on this but we have seen this as well.  I think you may
need a *Simpliphi Access* cabinet like this to get the listing:
https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-phi-sol-ark/

This is UL listed to 9540 even though its probably very similar to what you
have designed.

Unfortunately, this takes away quite a bit of the design freedom that is
necessary for robust designs for all of the different needs our clients
have.

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 12:05 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Sounds like California Loren?
>
> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>
> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>
>
> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
> wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
>
> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
> batteries stating:
> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
> project.*
>
> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> --
>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
> 
>
>
> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>
> Board Member & Worker Owner
>
> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>
> Office: (530) 274-3671
>
> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>
> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
> [image: NABCEP] 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Brian Mehalic]

Simpliphi has at least two combinations of specific batteries + SolArk that it 
says are 9540 listed as a combination. See spec sheets/fully integrated systems 
on their site  You may have to dig further to find the actual certificates or 
whatever the AHJ is asking for. Or maybe these aren’t the combinations you’re 
looking for. 

Brian

> On Jul 20, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Sounds like California Loren?
> 
> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
> 
> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
> 
> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
> 
>  
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Wrenches,
>>  
>> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi 
>> batteries stating:
>> "Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 
>> (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The Sol-Ark 
>> system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per UL 1741. 
>> The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other components 
>> associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL 9540. 
>> Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a Nationally 
>> Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to 
>> show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot 
>> be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per 
>> UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different system that is 
>> listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the project.
>>  
>> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong 
>> about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the 
>> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any 
>> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and 
>> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>>  
>> Thanks in advance for your help.
>>  
>> -- 
>>   
>>  
>> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>> Board Member & Worker Owner
>> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>> Office: (530) 274-3671  
>> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945 
>> 
>> 
>>   
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Lorenzo Ortiz]

Yessir, good old California...

On Tue, Jul 20, 2021 at 11:05 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Sounds like California Loren?
>
> I use Schneider and they have UL9540 certs.
>
> Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.
>
>
> https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
> wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
>
> We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
> batteries stating:
> *"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
> 706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
> Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
> UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
> components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
> 9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
> Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
> inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
> If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
> inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
> system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
> project.*
>
> Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
> wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
> batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
> documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
> Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help.
>
> --
>[image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]
> 
>
>
> Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist
>
> Board Member & Worker Owner
>
> lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop
>
> Office: (530) 274-3671
>
> Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624
>
> Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
> [image: NABCEP] 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
>
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   [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]



Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist

Board Member & Worker Owner

lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop

Office: (530) 274-3671

Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624

Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
[image: NABCEP] 

-- 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Sounds like California Loren? 

I use Schneider and they have UL9540
certs. 

Here is a link to them and yes I have been asked this locally.


https://solar.schneider-electric.com/schneider-electric-solar-and-discover-battery-attain-ul-9540-certification-for-xw-pro-and-aes-batteries/
 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 10:22:43 -0700, Lorenzo Ortiz 
wrote:  Wrenches,   We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k
system with Simpliphi batteries stating: _"Energy storage systems are
required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC 706.5 (See also Annex A in the
NEC, under energy storage systems). THE SOL-ARK SYSTEM IS NOT LISTED AND
TESTED PER UL 9540 BUT IS ONLY LISTED PER UL 1741. THE COMPLETE SYSTEM (IE.
BATTERIES, INVERTER, AND ANY OTHER COMPONENTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE ENERGY
STORAGE SYSTEM) MUST BE LISTED PER UL 9540. Please provide documentation
and certification sheets (from a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL))
for both the batteries and SolArk inverter to show that all components are
tested and certified per UL 9540. If it cannot be shown that the batteries
are tested and listed with SolArk inverters per UL 9540, then such system
cannot be installed and a different system that is listed and tested per UL
9540 must be chosen for the project._ _ _ Have any of you run into this
with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the wrong about the entire system
needing to meet the standard and not just the batteries? The code language
is kind of confusing. I can't find any documentation on Solark's website
regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and Simpliphi have recently put out
documentation regarding this.   Thanks in advance for your help.
   --


Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist 

Board Member  font-family:
Arial; background-color: transparent; vertical-align: baseline;
white-space: pre-wrap;">lo...@cal-solar.com [4] | www.cal-solar.coop [5]


Office: (530) 274-3671   

Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624 

Showroom:
149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945[6]   

  [7] 

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
https://californiasolarco.com/
[4] mailto:lo...@cal-solar.com
[5]
http://www.cal-solar.coop/
[6] https://www.nabcep.org/
[7]
https://californiasolarco.com/quote/
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[RE-wrenches] Is Solark UL 9540 Certified?

[Lorenzo Ortiz]

Wrenches,

We have recently had an AHJ reject our Solark 12k system with Simpliphi
batteries stating:
*"Energy storage systems are required to be listed per UL 9540 per NEC
706.5 (See also Annex A in the NEC, under energy storage systems). The
Sol-Ark system is not listed and tested per UL 9540 but is only listed per
UL 1741. The complete system (ie. batteries, inverter, and any other
components associated with the energy storage system) must be listed per UL
9540. Please provide documentation and certification sheets (from a
Nationally Recognized Testing Lab (NRTL)) for both the batteries and SolArk
inverter to show that all components are tested and certified per UL 9540.
If it cannot be shown that the batteries are tested and listed with SolArk
inverters per UL 9540, then such system cannot be installed and a different
system that is listed and tested per UL 9540 must be chosen for the
project.*

Have any of you run into this with Solark? Is the plans-checker in the
wrong about the entire system needing to meet the standard and not just the
batteries? The code language is kind of confusing. I can't find any
documentation on Solark's website regarding UL 9540. I know Tesla and
Simpliphi have recently put out documentation regarding this.

Thanks in advance for your help.

-- 
   [image: California Solar Electric Cooperative]



Loren Ortiz - Technical Design Specialist

Board Member & Worker Owner

lo...@cal-solar.com  | www.cal-solar.coop

Office: (530) 274-3671

Fax: (530) 477-7571  CSLB #779624

Showroom: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
[image: NABCEP] 

-- 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Radian 8048 Main AC Breaker Trip with Generator

[Maverick Brown]

I would double check the new inverter’s wiring. Those extra neutral wiring 
points can be a trickster. 

From the Mate3 main status, press the Inverter Status soft key (3rd button from 
the left). The upper left status will indicate Selling, charging, etc. Press 
the Port button to cycle around the inverters. Make sure none of the inverters 
have Errors. Especially ones that don’t necessarily report as an Event. I had a 
similar issue and it turned out I also needed a née Hub. 



Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825


> On Jul 18, 2021, at 10:34 PM, Jon Siegenthaler  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey folks,
> I went to investigate 3 Radian 8048A's that had the master inverter slowly 
> die from salty air. The newest slave that was added to the existing system of 
> 2 radians was programmed to be the master and the AGS was set to the new 
> master as well. The corroded ex-master was replaced with a new radian (now a 
> slave) and the system runs fine. 
> 
> Except when the generator runs for about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes the 
> main AC breaker trips and the power goes out on the system. It's clear that 
> the AC output must be seeing more than or equal to 50A and that's causing the 
> trip but I cannot figure out why this only happens with the generator 
> running. 
> 
> Also when the generator is running an error of overcurrent will occur and 
> show an imbalance of 34A to 108A from phase A to B. Eventually the current 
> will come closer together and the error will disappear. However during the 
> imbalance I will check the actual generator output conductors with my amprobe 
> and see around 43A to 48A phase A to B.  
> 
> Has anyone experienced this or know what the best solution would be to 
> resolve this issue? 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] outback grid tie help

[Maverick Brown]

Jay

Even if you that sell limit setting is low, I’d drop the grid and load up the 
inverter a bit, and force bulk just to be sure the CC and PV are functioning 
correctly. You could even amp clamp the PV strings to make sure each string is 
correct. 

Good luck!

Maverick

Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825


> On Jul 20, 2021, at 1:55 AM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Max,
> 
> Ive thought about this, and have done forced bulk a few times with no change 
> in output. 
> 
> One thing I haven’t done is to drain the batteries and see if the PV watts 
> increase to fill them. 
> 
> Nobody has suggested the cc is somehow limiting due to a weird failure snd 
> the settings are correct. I’ve never seen this off grid except if it’s 
> overheating, which seems hard to believe at 1000 watts. 
> 
> And given that a few have had similar experiences that turned out to be grid 
> sell amps being to low, it’s the logical next step. 
> 
> I should have an answer within not to long. 
> 
> Thx
> Jay
> 
>>> On Jul 19, 2021, at 8:42 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Hi Jay,
>> 
>> I suspect the grid-tie sell function isn't quite working in the charge 
>> controllers (if all strings are working correctly).  To test this, you can 
>> try to force a bulk charge with the charge controllers.  The inverter should 
>> try to maintain the sell voltage and you should see the wattage of the array 
>> increase (if you do it during peak sun time).   You can do the same test by 
>> putting the float voltage in the charge controllers a few volts above the 
>> sell voltage.
>> 
>> You can also test the selling function; you could also lower the sell 
>> voltage below the current battery bank voltage.  This should cause the sell 
>> current to increase up to the max sell current parameter until the battery 
>> bank voltage lowers to the offset voltage.
>> 
>> Of course firmware could be the issue.
>> 
>> One thing that has really helped us to make the Outback products work well 
>> is to calibrate all battery voltages across devices.  That includes the 
>> flexnet DC, which is a process described here: 
>> https://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/appnotes/fndc_field_cal_app_note.pdf
>> 
>> This calibration is especially important with Lithium drop in batteries.
>>  
>> Let us know what you find out
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 8:01 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>>> Hi Jay, here are my guesses:
>>> 1) Customer is using all the power (3.5 is not a large array)
>>> 2)  Per William Miller, the batteries are shot.  
>>> 3) combination of 1 &2 
>>> 4) Bulk voltage is too high, daily trying to go to bulk voltage drives the 
>>> batteries to the grave.  Float voltage is too high, acting as a low charge, 
>>> holding off sell.  The return amps never drop to an acceptable level.  
>>> 5) What is the sell voltage?  Is it too high? 
>>> I feel insecure in telling you my settings as I look to you as one of the 
>>> top people in the field.   
>>> 
 On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 6:25 PM Jay  wrote:
 I’ve had someone from application engineering at Outback check the 
 settings. 
 
 All appear normal and correct. 
 
 I’m going to be checking the deep setting on grid sell which is most 
 likely the culprit. 
 
 Thanks for all the advice and I’ll let you all know what find. 
 
 Jay
 
>> On Jul 19, 2021, at 4:11 PM, Jerry Shafer  
>> wrote:
>> 
> 
> Jay
> In Optics RE
> Mate 3S verify that the firmware is 1.4.6
> under global charge are all switches "disabled"
> in the GS AC Input "Grid", 
> Charger "Off", 
> "Grid Tie" set 
> Offset enable "Yes"
> sell is up to you and battery manufacture
> Jerry
> 
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2021 at 1:44 PM jay  wrote:
>> HI All,
>> 
>> I”m trying to diagnose the following system I didn’t install.
>> 
>> 4 year old system grid tie battery back up.
>> 
>> Radian 4048
>> flexmax 80
>> 3500 watts PV
>> fndc
>> it is on opticsRE
>> 
>> The symptoms are that its not selling much at all.  Mostly when it is 
>> about 1kw max PV production and .8kw selling.  I have disconnected the 
>> FNDC and after that it did seem to work better.  
>> 
>> Usually it will sell a bit, then buy a bit then sell and so on.  Grid 
>> voltage is very constant at around 246vac. 
>> 
>> I’ve been through the settings a few times with tech support, made 
>> adjustments and for a while it was selling pretty normally, but again 
>> today 0 production, CC is at float.  
>> 
>> I have not been to the site, I was just trying to do this all by optics. 
>>  But I’m going to have to go.   I think there are 3 possible issues.  
>> 
>> 1. the customer has always thought the production is lo