[RE-wrenches] Ble Planet 8kWh solved, and Namaka

[William Miller]

Friends:



Thanks for all of the input about the Blue Planet 8kWh configuration.  Here
is the story:  The red lead is supposed to be longer.  It is supposed to
have enough slack looped behind the panel so you can pull enough out to
connect to the second from bottom shelf.  There was a redesign and the
extra length got accidentally deleted.  Blue Planet apologized for the
problem and pledged to correct it.



I cut the wire ties holding the existing red lead and rerouted it to
reach.   It is not elegant but it works.  We fabricate cables so I will
make a longer 2/0 cable to make it look right.  I would have done this
right away but it seemed like I was missing something.



Jody of Blue Planed was very helpful.  He exhibits the three most valuable
attributes needed:  He is knowledgeable, professional and he answers his
phone.



Here are some other things I learned in the process:



1.   The manual is incomplete in several regards.  For example it never
instructs to install the orange connectors although at some point you must.

2.   There actually is a wall mounting kit.  It is called the “stacking
kit” but it does allow wall connection of a one-high cabinet.  I fastened
two chunks of strut securely to the wall with Simpson SDS lags, one high
and one low, and bolted the cabinet to the strut. I used two existing holes
in the cabinet up high and drilled two more down low.

3.   There are ground straps that need to be removed from the door and the
top for those panels to come off.  It would be very easy for these straps
to contact the positive terminals in the front or top.  Keep them secure or
tape them off.



I have another question:  The Namaka chassis is a $900 add-on.  When I
asked if it was necessary, I was told it was needed to pass SOC data to the
Radian.  I had the presence of mind to ask what the Radian does with the
SOC value and I was told, “nothing.”  Apparently that is a future thing.
Also the Namaka is supposedly needed to provide user data on SOC.
Apparently this tells the user when they are about to run out of power via
the Namaka web site.  I looked around and I cannot find the Namaka web
site.  Am I missing something?  Do I need this unit?.



One of the characteristics of Lithium batteries is the flat voltage curve
during discharge.  I have been aware of this fact but I am not sure I
thought through the implications.  This is going to make it hard to call
battery voltage triggered actions, like starting a generator or sending a
notification email.  So if the Radian cannot process Namaka SOC data and
the battery voltage caves suddenly at the bitter end, how do we start the
generator or send low battery notifications?  Will the Namaka web interface
fill in these gaps?  I am sorry if I am being dense here, but these seem
like valid concerns.  I am prepared to be taught that I am totally missing
something.



Thanks to all of you for being the awesome people you are.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[William Miller]

Kirpal:



Thanks for that suggestion.  The AP Smart system modules are certainly more
compact and this is a plus for me.



Do you have to have a sensor transformer and logic unit on each string?
Could more than one string be routed through one sensor coil?  This
installation will have 10 strings so that could be a lot of hardware.



Some here have asked if RSS is required on a non-dwelling unit.  My reading
of the code indicates indeed it is.  The only buildings exempt are
buildings used solely for solar equipment that are fed by ground mount
arrays.  So theoretically our ground mount systems that feed equipment in a
barn or garage should also have RSS.  Right?  This does not make sense to
me for protecting fire-fighters.  Seems like an over-reach.  Bill Brooks,
could you comment on this?  Anyone?



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Kirpal [mailto:solarwo...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 5:21 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches; William Miller
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems



Hi William.

We have had good luck with the AP Smart Rapid shutdown system.  It is
similar to the Tigo in that it sends a "heartbeat" signal to the units up
behind each solar panel over the power wires. I haven't tried the Tigos yet
but would be open to it if the opportunity presented itself.  The thing we
like about the AP Smart shutdown units is they can be attached to the solar
panels before the panels are brought up to the roof.  Makes for a quick and
tidy installation.  We found the Fire Raptor units with their incredible
amount of extra wiring and cables to be a real pain in the ass to install.
It typically takes longer to install the Fire Raptor units and manage the
wiring than it does to install the solar panels themselves. The fire
raptors are more expensive and require a seperate control wire to be run
upto the roof.  We haven't had any failures on either the fire raptor or
the AP Smart units with probably a dozen installs of each style installed
to date.  Brad Bassett at AEE has some great easy to use wiring diagrams
for both systems with Outback or Sol Ark.  All the above systems have some
requirement for either 12V or 24V power to power the signal generator.  We
typically use some version of din rail mounted 48-24v or12V power supply
and power it from the batteries so that if the inverter were to fail or the
grid the solar can still stay on..  At this stage we have settled on any of
the rapid shutdown systems except Fire Raptor.  - if you do use the Fire
Raptor - calculate a  bunch of extra time into the install for wire
management.

Hope that gives you some food for thought.

Cheers,



Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa

Oregon LRT#25
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[William Miller]

Jerry:



Yes it is required.  Rapid Shutdown:  NEC 690.12.  All buildings except
dedicated solar buildings.  Read it and weep.



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* Jerry Shafer [mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 7:21 PM
*To:* William Miller; RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems



William

Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its
not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor with the best results,
yes it takes an extra conduite and might require a button and power supply
depending on inverter application.

Jerry



On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 9:57 AM William Miller 
wrote:

Friends:



It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our first
off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at the
options and this is what I have found:



1.   Fire Raptor

2.   Tigo TS4-F

3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers



No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
big problem.



Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Jerry Shafer]

William
Are you sure RSD is required on a non habitable building, historically its
not required. Now that being said we use fire raptor with the best results,
yes it takes an extra conduite and might require a button and power supply
depending on inverter application.
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 9:57 AM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
> one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our first
> off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
> exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at the
> options and this is what I have found:
>
>
>
> 1.   Fire Raptor
>
> 2.   Tigo TS4-F
>
> 3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers
>
>
>
> No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
> wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
> which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
> proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
> systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
> big problem.
>
>
>
> Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
> system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
> in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] burnt wire

[Mac Lewis]

Yes, this is a loose connection coupled with no way to detect and respond
to the Arc fault.  It doesn't have to be loose on that conductor on a
common bus, any bad connection can build up heat and melt conductors.
Scary!




On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 6:51 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I was troubleshooting a Schneider system today (not my install, so I don't
> know the history) and came across a wire where the insulation actually
> burnt off. See the attached photo. I have never seen anything like it. Does
> anyone know how this could happen? It was a Conext MPPT 80 600 charge
> controller going to a 100A breaker, with what appears to be #2 CU wire.
> This is in a heated shed, and there is no evidence of water leakage. The
> charge controller was still working just fine. And it was only that last 6"
> or so of the wire, the rest of it appeared to be fine.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
> [image: Logo] 
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com 
> c: (607) 288-2898
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Dave Tedeyan]

I also recently used the Tigo with Sol-Ark to provide the 12V signal with
good success. The Tigo transmitter can also (barely) fit inside the Sol-Ark
wiring compartment, so you do not need the whole Tigo enclosure for it.
Cheers,
Dave

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 8:21 PM Kirpal  wrote:

> Hi William.
> We have had good luck with the AP Smart Rapid shutdown system.  It is
> similar to the Tigo in that it sends a "heartbeat" signal to the units up
> behind each solar panel over the power wires. I haven't tried the Tigos yet
> but would be open to it if the opportunity presented itself.  The thing we
> like about the AP Smart shutdown units is they can be attached to the solar
> panels before the panels are brought up to the roof.  Makes for a quick and
> tidy installation.  We found the Fire Raptor units with their incredible
> amount of extra wiring and cables to be a real pain in the ass to install.
> It typically takes longer to install the Fire Raptor units and manage the
> wiring than it does to install the solar panels themselves. The fire
> raptors are more expensive and require a seperate control wire to be run
> upto the roof.  We haven't had any failures on either the fire raptor or
> the AP Smart units with probably a dozen installs of each style installed
> to date.  Brad Bassett at AEE has some great easy to use wiring diagrams
> for both systems with Outback or Sol Ark.  All the above systems have some
> requirement for either 12V or 24V power to power the signal generator.  We
> typically use some version of din rail mounted 48-24v or12V power supply
> and power it from the batteries so that if the inverter were to fail or the
> grid the solar can still stay on..  At this stage we have settled on any of
> the rapid shutdown systems except Fire Raptor.  - if you do use the Fire
> Raptor - calculate a  bunch of extra time into the install for wire
> management.
> Hope that gives you some food for thought.
> Cheers,
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
>
>
>
>>
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-- 
[image: Logo] 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 288-2898
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Kirpal]

Hi William.
We have had good luck with the AP Smart Rapid shutdown system.  It is
similar to the Tigo in that it sends a "heartbeat" signal to the units up
behind each solar panel over the power wires. I haven't tried the Tigos yet
but would be open to it if the opportunity presented itself.  The thing we
like about the AP Smart shutdown units is they can be attached to the solar
panels before the panels are brought up to the roof.  Makes for a quick and
tidy installation.  We found the Fire Raptor units with their incredible
amount of extra wiring and cables to be a real pain in the ass to install.
It typically takes longer to install the Fire Raptor units and manage the
wiring than it does to install the solar panels themselves. The fire
raptors are more expensive and require a seperate control wire to be run
upto the roof.  We haven't had any failures on either the fire raptor or
the AP Smart units with probably a dozen installs of each style installed
to date.  Brad Bassett at AEE has some great easy to use wiring diagrams
for both systems with Outback or Sol Ark.  All the above systems have some
requirement for either 12V or 24V power to power the signal generator.  We
typically use some version of din rail mounted 48-24v or12V power supply
and power it from the batteries so that if the inverter were to fail or the
grid the solar can still stay on..  At this stage we have settled on any of
the rapid shutdown systems except Fire Raptor.  - if you do use the Fire
Raptor - calculate a  bunch of extra time into the install for wire
management.
Hope that gives you some food for thought.
Cheers,

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402



>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[Kirpal]

Hi William.
Of the 30+ Blue Planet jobs we have done - The 2.0 and HI versions the
positive cable has always only just reached the top corner.   When we
populate only half of the cabinet we don't cut the buss bar as this will
cause more work trying to get a longer replacement buss bar from Blue
Planet at a later date if the customer decides to add more battery
modules.  We carefully tape over the exposed buss bar sections we aren't
using.  We have attached the positive lead to the floating end of the buss
bar.  It isn't flimsy metal and with the door of the cabinet closed nearly
all the time it is pretty protected - the most risk of shorting to the
cabinet or bending the buss bar accidentally is during installation- at
which time we are very careful.  That said you could certainly switch the
positive cable and add a longer one if you didn't want to connect to the
floating end of the buss bar  We have had numerous customers fully
populate the enclosure at a later date and were happy we didn't cut the
buss barsmade for simple quick expansion.
I can second the fact that Jody Power is a great contact and resource at
Blue Planet.  Feel free to direct message me if you want his contact info...
Best of luck,


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402 (o)


On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 1:18 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
> so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
> anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
> only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
> the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
> problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
> not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
> unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.
>
>
>
> This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
> to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
> an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?
>
>
>
> Thank in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Vic Guillot]

William,
We did one this year, offgrid, Outback Radian with Simpliphi batteries.
Used the outback rapid shutdown option which is probably similar to the
fire raptor system.
Cheers!,
Vic Guillot

Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.
209.795.3554 office
209.768.3560 mobile/text



On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:57 AM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
> one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our first
> off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
> exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at the
> options and this is what I have found:
>
>
>
> 1.   Fire Raptor
>
> 2.   Tigo TS4-F
>
> 3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers
>
>
>
> No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
> wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
> which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
> proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
> systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
> big problem.
>
>
>
> Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
> system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
> in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[Vic Guillot]

William,
We have had good luck, the guy you want to talk to is Jody Powell. He has
been a tech there for a couple of years or more.
Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.

Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.
209.795.3554 office
209.768.3560 mobile/text



On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 1:18 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
> so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
> anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
> only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
> the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
> problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
> not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
> unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.
>
>
>
> This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
> to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
> an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?
>
>
>
> Thank in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
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>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[Jerry Shafer]

William
In the case where l am only installing 4 or 6 batteries, l start at the top
half and leave the bottom empty, l also cut the positive and negative bars
and it look great after. I did ask years ago for dead fronts but it never
came to be.
Don't forget to address each one and get all the sn# as it all goes
together.
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 1:18 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
> so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
> anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
> only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
> the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
> problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
> not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
> unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.
>
>
>
> This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
> to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
> an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?
>
>
>
> Thank in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[Jerry Shafer]

So do you have the new cabinet or the older 2.0,
Jerry

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 1:18 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
> so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
> anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
> only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
> the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
> problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
> not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
> unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.
>
>
>
> This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
> to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
> an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?
>
>
>
> Thank in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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[RE-wrenches] AC Couple Enphase microinverters to a SolarEdge Backup Interface Unit; any design insight?

[scot.arey]

We have a design challenge where we think the use of microinverters with a
SolarEdge Energy Hub and inverter might provide advantages. 

 

I can not find any literature nor FAQs on AC-coupling Enphase to the backed
up side of the SolarEdge Backup Interface Unit. Has anyone done it or can
point me to design rules?

Why you ask.I believe the SolarEdge new 11400 Energy Hub inverter and a LG
Prime 16 will provide higher backed up power and thus a larger critical load
panel. I can do this in a more compact space and at less cost than three
Encharge 10 batteries which would provide roughly the same peak backup
power. And you ask why not just use all SolarEdge.there is a separate metal
building with ample capacity electrical already run to it. By
interconnecting Enphase there, I can get more PV capacity beyond just the PV
with SolarEdge on the primary  building without a new trench/conduit for
separate DC runs from the separate building. The loads in the metal building
are on-demand only so in essence this building circuit becomes primarily as
PV/Enphase solar circuit (with proper utility disconnects added, of course).
It's this circuit that I'll want to AC-couple.

 

Any insight on AC-coupling of Enphase to SolarEdge and ratio of Ac-coupled
to overall SolarEdge capacity? Any recommendations if the IQ8 would offer
any advantages over the IQ7 here?

 

 

 



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[Kirk Herander]

That seems very odd that that pos cable(to the breaker/ bmu) does not
reach. I've done partial 2.0's before and that lead could reach any pos
battery terminal, regardless of the shelf it's on. Am I missing something?
Maybe 48v HI leads are different. I heat shrinked the unconnected busbar
length as a sanity check, but I doubt they would ever tilt to potentially
short on the chassis.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 4:18 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
> so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
> anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
> only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
> the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
> problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
> not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
> unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.
>
>
>
> This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
> to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
> an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?
>
>
>
> Thank in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>
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>

-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!*

*www.vermont.solar*


dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] Blue Planet 8kWh instllation

[William Miller]

Friends:



I am installing my first Blue Planet system today.  I ordered an 8kWh unit
so that means only 4 of the 8 battery positions are filled.  I can’t find
anything on the Blue Planet site or in the literature on how to implement
only 4 battery modules.  I have called every Blue Planet number I can and
the advice I have been given is to load only the bottom positions.  The
problem with that advice is if I do that the internal positive lead will
not reach the top battery and the battery bus bars look like they will be
unsupported on the top and prone to bending and maybe shorting.



This should be an easy manufacturer tech support answer, but I can’t seem
to get though or get an answer that makes sense.  Have any of you installed
an 8kWh package and maybe have some guidance?



Thank in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[penobscotsolar]

Hi William,
   We have a half dozen plus off grid systems using SolArk inverters and
TIGO optimizers. They work well and the TIGO's, from my experience,
have been really reliable. The necessary 12 volt signal can come
directly from the relay in the SolArk inverter.

Best,
Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV
Penobscot Solar Design



> Friends:
>
>
>
> It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
> one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our
> first
> off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
> exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at
> the
> options and this is what I have found:
>
>
>
> 1.   Fire Raptor
>
> 2.   Tigo TS4-F
>
> 3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers
>
>
>
> No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
> wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
> which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
> proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
> systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
> big problem.
>
>
>
> Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
> system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
> in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] X-240 Buzz

[Alex MeVay]

One thing you might want to check is for any DC getting into the
transformer.  This can cause the transformer to saturate on one side
of the sinewave, leading to high peak currents and a buzz.  You can
try checking for this by putting a DMM set to DC across the AC line.
Should be well under a volt.  Be sure to use a quality DMM, as cheaper
ones might not be able to fully reject the AC, and some of it might
show up as a DC reading.  To make sure the meter isn't playing tricks
on you, you can also try reversing the meter polarity and making sure
the DC reading inverts too.

Admittedly, I haven't encountered this with an inverter before, just
at a friend's apartment, where the DC caused an immediate breaker trip
when a large 120->240 transformer was connected.  I can sort of
imagine a situation where an inverter that's not quite working quite
right has a little DC offset at light loads, but that this goes away
at heavier loads.

Let us know what you find,

Alex MeVay

Genasun * Blue Sky Energy * http://sunforgellc.com

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 7:51 AM Foxfire Energy  wrote:
>
> Not positive, but I’d suspect resonant frequencies.. might be simple as using 
> flat washers under the mounting screws.. maybe try adding an inductive load 
> to skew the power factor.. gobs of information online.. good luck. db
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jan 31, 2022, at 10:34 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> >
> > 
> > An Outback X-240 auto transformer on a VFX3648 buzzes loudly with a load of 
> > 400 W. The sound diminishes and finally stops with higher loads.
> >
> > The load was an electric, oil filled space heater.
> >
> > Has anyone seen this before?
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Drake
> >
> > Drake Chamberlin
> > Athens Electric LLC
> > Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> > CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> > NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> >
> > --
> > ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[Chris Sparadeo]

Hi William,

I have had good luck with the Tigo TS4-AF. Although it does require a 12VDC
power supply for it's RSD transmitter, Outback, Sol Ark and Schnieder have
a straight forward integration not requiring dependency of AC output from
inverter.

Best,

Chris

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 12:57 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
> one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our first
> off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
> exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at the
> options and this is what I have found:
>
>
>
> 1.   Fire Raptor
>
> 2.   Tigo TS4-F
>
> 3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers
>
>
>
> No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
> wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
> which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
> proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
> systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
> big problem.
>
>
>
> Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
> system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
> in advance.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Off-grid systems

[William Miller]

Friends:



It is quite rare for us to install off-grid systems on roof-tops.  We have
one coming up with about 20kW on a large barn roof.  This will be our first
off-grid with a module-level rapid shutdown requirement.  I see no
exemptions from RSS for off-grid systems in the code.  I have looked at the
options and this is what I have found:



1.   Fire Raptor

2.   Tigo TS4-F

3.   AC coupling with micro-inverters or optimizers



No one of these approaches seems ideal.  The fire raptor requires extra
wiring for control leads.  The Tigo requires a wireless control system
which worries me about reliability.  With AC Coupling systems floating the
proposed AGM batteries may be awkward.  Furthermore, with AC coupled
systems one cannot charge batteries unless the mini-grid is operational, a
big problem.



Have any of you implemented module-level RSS on a battery-based inverter
system?  I looked in the archives and found no threads that apply.  Thank
in advance.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autotransformer for Single Phase Motor Headache

[Jay]

Hi Chris, 
I’m not enough of an EE to know that answer. 

But my guess is it isn’t going to be enough to make much of a difference, still 
a massive hit on the inverters 

Given the cost of the transformers with install vs the correct motor with VFD 
drive. 
I’d go with new motor/VFD and you know for sure it’s going to work. 

Jay

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 9:50 AM, Chris Sparadeo  wrote:
> 
> 
> Thanks for offering Darryl, but I have pretty good data on the 120/240VAC 
> single phase motor I am up against. NEC 430 suggests LRC is 188 A, but I am 
> measuring more like 112A during start up. I am thinking that using the VFD 
> for slower ramp up AND as a phase converter from single phase to three phase 
> will help lower inrush significantly. 
> 
> Jay-  with the autotransformer option, I was hoping that the 240V input and 
> 240V output capability of the Victron autotransformer would add some of the 
> benefits of a transformer based inverter to the Sol Ark's transformer-less 
> design. Less about balancing phases and more about adding some inductive kick 
> when the load drops. Am I correct in thinking this is a possible use of this 
> specific device? 
> 
>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:43 AM Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>> Hi i have a single phase motor at a old install that i replaced about 8 
>> years ago.  Would it help if i made some starting load surge measurments?
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:52 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>>> Hi Chris, In the past, I was able to start a 5 hp pump motor using a VFD. , 
>>> I can not remember the make, of the VFD but I think it was an ABB 7.5 or 10 
>>> HP connected to a single-phase motor.  I started it on two Outback 3548s 
>>> (or maybe 3024s).  Now for the tricky part, I have done this several times 
>>> over the years so I keep confusing the systems.  you must power the VFD 
>>> before starting the motor to charge the capacitors as the VFD will also 
>>> have a loading surge.( one time on maybe 10 HP I did a homemade resistor)  
>>> The VFD has a large capacitance and will have a surge.  Most water pumps do 
>>> not have a high zero-speed torque requirement, meaning low inertia, so you 
>>> can use a slower ramp to speed.  watch your speed as the VFD can Overspeed 
>>> the motor increasing the load.  The advantage of the VFD is it can run at a 
>>> lower speed reducing the load on the inverter.  I also think an Auto 
>>> Transformer will balance the load between the inverters, but may not be 
>>> necessary.
>>> Also be aware that starting surge is on the battery also,  If your motor 
>>> has aGH motor it can have a 4 to7 times the running loads on starting.  NEC 
>>> 430,7 I think.  This can be well over 100 amps.  The inverter will sag in 
>>> voltage during startup but they may draw 400 or 500 amps from the battery.  
>>> If my memory is correct the 10 HP VFD has the possibility of adding an 
>>> extra capacitor which reduces AC starting draw.
>>> Sorry, this was so long, it was more than 20 years ago for me.  
>>> 
>>> 
 On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:46 AM Chris Sparadeo  
 wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I currently have an off-grid client that has a 120/240VAC  7.5 HP -  40A 
 FLC single phase pool pump. Locked rotor current is around 110 A. I had 
 initially (and naively) thought that two Sol Ark 12k units would be able 
 to handle this load. Due to the lack of a transformer, the unit's just 
 can't output the required inductive startup inrush. Now getting 
 clarification from Sol Ark that max inductive HP output is 2.5 HP per 
 unit. We had installed an amply sized SR35 soft starter, with no avail. 
 The 20 kW generator can start the motor, but it is noticeably shaken with 
 the intense load drop. 
 
 I am toying with the idea of installing a VFD and upgrading the pool pump 
 to a three phase motor. Would make for a much smoother ramp and self 
 start. The client is a bit hesitant to upgrade and would like to continue 
 using their clunky, non-self starting single phase motor.  
 
 My other thought was to implement an autotransformer to add some copper to 
 the equation and help the Sol Ark's get the job done. Has anyone had any 
 experience with the Victron 100A autotransformer for both 120/240 input 
 and output? 
 
 Any suggestions or relative experience would be greatly appreciated!
 
 -Kindly,
 
 -Chris
 
 --
 Chris Sparadeo 
 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ® # 042919-015652
 NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector ® # 052920-015652 
 State of Vermont Journeyman Electrician # EJ-07619
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autotransformer for Single Phase Motor Headache

[Chris Sparadeo]

Thanks for offering Darryl, but I have pretty good data on the 120/240VAC
single phase motor I am up against. NEC 430 suggests LRC is 188 A, but I am
measuring more like 112A during start up. I am thinking that using the VFD
for slower ramp up AND as a phase converter from single phase to three
phase will help lower inrush significantly.

Jay-  with the autotransformer option, I was hoping that the 240V input and
240V output capability of the Victron autotransformer would add some of the
benefits of a transformer based inverter to the Sol Ark's transformer-less
design. Less about balancing phases and more about adding some inductive
kick when the load drops. Am I correct in thinking this is a possible use
of this specific device?

On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 9:43 AM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> Hi i have a single phase motor at a old install that i replaced about
> 8 years ago.  Would it help if i made some starting load surge measurments?
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:52 PM Darryl Thayer 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris, In the past, I was able to start a 5 hp pump motor using a VFD.
>> , I can not remember the make, of the VFD but I think it was an ABB 7.5 or
>> 10 HP connected to a single-phase motor.  I started it on two Outback 3548s
>> (or maybe 3024s).  Now for the tricky part, I have done this several times
>> over the years so I keep confusing the systems.  you must power the VFD
>> before starting the motor to charge the capacitors as the VFD will also
>> have a loading surge.( one time on maybe 10 HP I did a homemade resistor)
>> The VFD has a large capacitance and will have a surge.  Most water pumps do
>> not have a high zero-speed torque requirement, meaning low inertia, so you
>> can use a slower ramp to speed.  watch your speed as the VFD can Overspeed
>> the motor increasing the load.  The advantage of the VFD is it can run at a
>> lower speed reducing the load on the inverter.  I also think an Auto
>> Transformer will balance the load between the inverters, but may not be
>> necessary.
>> Also be aware that starting surge is on the battery also,  If your motor
>> has aGH motor it can have a 4 to7 times the running loads on starting.  NEC
>> 430,7 I think.  This can be well over 100 amps.  The inverter will sag in
>> voltage during startup but they may draw 400 or 500 amps from the battery.
>> If my memory is correct the 10 HP VFD has the possibility of adding an
>> extra capacitor which reduces AC starting draw.
>> Sorry, this was so long, it was more than 20 years ago for me.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:46 AM Chris Sparadeo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I currently have an off-grid client that has a 120/240VAC  7.5 HP -  40A
>>> FLC single phase pool pump. Locked rotor current is around 110 A. I had
>>> initially (and naively) thought that two Sol Ark 12k units would be able to
>>> handle this load. Due to the lack of a transformer, the unit's just can't
>>> output the required inductive startup inrush. Now getting clarification
>>> from Sol Ark that max inductive HP output is 2.5 HP per unit. We had
>>> installed an amply sized SR35 soft starter, with no avail. The 20 kW
>>> generator can start the motor, but it is noticeably shaken with the
>>> intense load drop.
>>>
>>> I am toying with the idea of installing a VFD and upgrading the pool
>>> pump to a three phase motor. Would make for a much smoother ramp and self
>>> start. The client is a bit hesitant to upgrade and would like to continue
>>> using their clunky, non-self starting single phase motor.
>>>
>>> My other thought was to implement an autotransformer to add some copper
>>> to the equation and help the Sol Ark's get the job done. Has anyone had any
>>> experience with the Victron 100A autotransformer for both 120/240 input and
>>> output?
>>>
>>> Any suggestions or relative experience would be greatly appreciated!
>>>
>>> -Kindly,
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Chris Sparadeo *
>>>
>>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652*
>>>
>>> *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 *
>>>
>>> *State of Vermont Journeyman Electrician # EJ-07619*
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>
> Pay optional member dues here: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] X-240 Buzz

[Foxfire Energy]

Not positive, but I’d suspect resonant frequencies.. might be simple as using 
flat washers under the mounting screws.. maybe try adding an inductive load to 
skew the power factor.. gobs of information online.. good luck. db

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 31, 2022, at 10:34 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
> 
> 
> An Outback X-240 auto transformer on a VFX3648 buzzes loudly with a load of 
> 400 W. The sound diminishes and finally stops with higher loads.
> 
> The load was an electric, oil filled space heater.
> 
> Has anyone seen this before?
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Drake
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> -- 
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[RE-wrenches] X-240 Buzz

[drake . chamberlin]

An Outback X-240 auto transformer on a VFX3648 buzzes loudly with a load 
of 400 W. The sound diminishes and finally stops with higher loads.


The load was an electric, oil filled space heater.

Has anyone seen this before?

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autotransformer for Single Phase Motor Headache

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi i have a single phase motor at a old install that i replaced about
8 years ago.  Would it help if i made some starting load surge measurments?

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022, 11:52 PM Darryl Thayer  wrote:

> Hi Chris, In the past, I was able to start a 5 hp pump motor using a VFD.
> , I can not remember the make, of the VFD but I think it was an ABB 7.5 or
> 10 HP connected to a single-phase motor.  I started it on two Outback 3548s
> (or maybe 3024s).  Now for the tricky part, I have done this several times
> over the years so I keep confusing the systems.  you must power the VFD
> before starting the motor to charge the capacitors as the VFD will also
> have a loading surge.( one time on maybe 10 HP I did a homemade resistor)
> The VFD has a large capacitance and will have a surge.  Most water pumps do
> not have a high zero-speed torque requirement, meaning low inertia, so you
> can use a slower ramp to speed.  watch your speed as the VFD can Overspeed
> the motor increasing the load.  The advantage of the VFD is it can run at a
> lower speed reducing the load on the inverter.  I also think an Auto
> Transformer will balance the load between the inverters, but may not be
> necessary.
> Also be aware that starting surge is on the battery also,  If your motor
> has aGH motor it can have a 4 to7 times the running loads on starting.  NEC
> 430,7 I think.  This can be well over 100 amps.  The inverter will sag in
> voltage during startup but they may draw 400 or 500 amps from the battery.
> If my memory is correct the 10 HP VFD has the possibility of adding an
> extra capacitor which reduces AC starting draw.
> Sorry, this was so long, it was more than 20 years ago for me.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 10:46 AM Chris Sparadeo 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I currently have an off-grid client that has a 120/240VAC  7.5 HP -  40A
>> FLC single phase pool pump. Locked rotor current is around 110 A. I had
>> initially (and naively) thought that two Sol Ark 12k units would be able to
>> handle this load. Due to the lack of a transformer, the unit's just can't
>> output the required inductive startup inrush. Now getting clarification
>> from Sol Ark that max inductive HP output is 2.5 HP per unit. We had
>> installed an amply sized SR35 soft starter, with no avail. The 20 kW
>> generator can start the motor, but it is noticeably shaken with the
>> intense load drop.
>>
>> I am toying with the idea of installing a VFD and upgrading the pool pump
>> to a three phase motor. Would make for a much smoother ramp and self start.
>> The client is a bit hesitant to upgrade and would like to continue using
>> their clunky, non-self starting single phase motor.
>>
>> My other thought was to implement an autotransformer to add some copper
>> to the equation and help the Sol Ark's get the job done. Has anyone had any
>> experience with the Victron 100A autotransformer for both 120/240 input and
>> output?
>>
>> Any suggestions or relative experience would be greatly appreciated!
>>
>> -Kindly,
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Chris Sparadeo *
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652*
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 *
>>
>> *State of Vermont Journeyman Electrician # EJ-07619*
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
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>>
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