Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches]

My design for one customer was to have one initiator for the PV and
inverter, and a separate one for the battery initiator. And, to put up a
plaque giving instructions to turn off the PV and inverter first, then the
battery.

Brad

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 4:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Esteemed wrenches:
>
> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed
> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about
> the charge controllers later.
>
> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…
>
> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from
> messing with it. Test it only after dark.
>
> William
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <
> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>
>> All
>>
>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
>> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
>> are under full load.
>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
>> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
>>> them up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
>>> or both panel types”?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
>>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
>>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
>>> requirements above and beyond the code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
>>> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
>>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
>>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
>>> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
>>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
>>> leads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
>>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
>>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
>>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
>>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
>>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
>>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
>>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
>>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how
>>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments
>>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
>>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William Miller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
>>> *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
>>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> *2020 Code Language:*
>>>
>>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*
>>>
>>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for
>>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
>>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
>>> and located within sight of the battery system.*
>>>
>>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family
>>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary
>>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside
>>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY
>>> DISCONNECT”.*
>>>
>>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
>>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
>>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected
>>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by
>>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Easy buddy. First off you are wrong about where I live. And secondly your whining about being cold will win you no sympathy; old folks die in heat waves when the air conditioning fails! And if it such a big deal to you then don’t just complain - get involved in the process, since I’m sure your ideas are the absolute best and we’d all be better off if you wrote the Code. BrianOn Jan 28, 2023, at 8:02 PM, James Jarvis  wrote:Brian and William,With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power security. Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS.Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled disconnects. William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. Brian MehalicOn Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches  wrote:It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Esteemed wrenches:Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. WilliamOn Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce  wrote:AllOne thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is running at the time, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[James Jarvis via RE-wrenches]

Brian and William,

With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may
be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power
security.

Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and
backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside
and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their
interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to
freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and
then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage.
So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS.

Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects
available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses.

My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a
buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects
on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be
slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled
disconnects.

William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery
disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You
had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow
up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And
removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to
island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a
telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when
their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full
load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea.

-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
http://www.aprsworld.com/


On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

> Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a
> main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many
> cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”
>
> In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for
> stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and
> two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an
> emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family
> dwellings [230.85].
>
> Brian Mehalic
>
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
> property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off
> my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there
> is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.
>
> -James Jefferson Jarvis
> APRS World, LLC
> +1-507-454-2727
> http://www.aprsworld.com/
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Esteemed wrenches:
>>
>> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed
>> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about
>> the charge controllers later.
>>
>> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…
>>
>> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from
>> messing with it. Test it only after dark.
>>
>> William
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <
>> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>>
>>> All
>>>
>>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT
>>> charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge
>>> controllers are under full load.
>>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk
>>> when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Jeremy:



 Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
 them up.



 Chris:



 What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
 or both panel types”?



 All:



 Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building
 officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should
 already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their
 own requirements above and beyond the code.



 It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
 well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
 inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
 generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
 disconnected from batteries.  So to completely 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. Brian MehalicOn Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches  wrote:It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Esteemed wrenches:Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. WilliamOn Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce  wrote:AllOne thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads. In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.   By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.  William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenchesSent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AMTo: cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenchesCc: Jeremy RodriguezSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects 2020 Code Language:480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.(A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system.N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

James:

Your on-grid home or business already has a quick and efficient means of
disconnecting power by a random person: If you have a non-CT meter it’s a
matter of clipping the meter tag and pulling the meter. If there is a CT
meter,  there will be a switch to flip.

Fortunately off-grid homes do not usually have random people on the
premises.

I have always felt it beyond my expertise to second-guess what first
responders require  to perform their jobs safely.

Most code requirements do add expense and inconvenience. However most
requirements seem well founded in logic. When I travel in third world
countries or read about building system failures, I personally appreciate
the codes we have.

William

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 4:58 PM James Jarvis  wrote:

> It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
> property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off
> my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there
> is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.
>
> -James Jefferson Jarvis
> APRS World, LLC
> +1-507-454-2727
> http://www.aprsworld.com/
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Esteemed wrenches:
>>
>> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed
>> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about
>> the charge controllers later.
>>
>> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…
>>
>> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from
>> messing with it. Test it only after dark.
>>
>> William
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <
>> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>>
>>> All
>>>
>>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT
>>> charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge
>>> controllers are under full load.
>>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk
>>> when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Jeremy:



 Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
 them up.



 Chris:



 What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
 or both panel types”?



 All:



 Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building
 officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should
 already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their
 own requirements above and beyond the code.



 It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
 well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
 inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
 generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
 disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
 of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
 leads.



 In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
 pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
 powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
 to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
 pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
 supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
 marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.



 By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
 voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
 having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.



 I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how
 this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments
 worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
 officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.





 William Miller



 Miller Solar

 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

 805-438-5600

 www.millersolar.com

 CA Lic. 773985





 *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
 Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
 *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
 *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
 *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
 *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[James Jarvis via RE-wrenches]

It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off
my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there
is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.

-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727
http://www.aprsworld.com/


On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Esteemed wrenches:
>
> Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed
> for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about
> the charge controllers later.
>
> Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…
>
> Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from
> messing with it. Test it only after dark.
>
> William
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <
> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote:
>
>> All
>>
>> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
>> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
>> are under full load.
>> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
>> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
>>> them up.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
>>> or both panel types”?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
>>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
>>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
>>> requirements above and beyond the code.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
>>> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
>>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
>>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
>>> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
>>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
>>> leads.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
>>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
>>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
>>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
>>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
>>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
>>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
>>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
>>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how
>>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments
>>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
>>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William Miller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
>>> *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
>>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> *2020 Code Language:*
>>>
>>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*
>>>
>>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for
>>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
>>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
>>> and located within sight of the battery system.*
>>>
>>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family
>>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary
>>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside
>>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY
>>> DISCONNECT”.*
>>>
>>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
>>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
>>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Esteemed wrenches:

Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for
lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the
charge controllers later.

Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…

Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing
with it. Test it only after dark.

William

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce 
wrote:

> All
>
> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
> are under full load.
> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
> the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jeremy:
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
>> them up.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris:
>>
>>
>>
>> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which
>> or both panel types”?
>>
>>
>>
>> All:
>>
>>
>>
>> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
>> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
>> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
>> requirements above and beyond the code.
>>
>>
>>
>> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
>> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
>> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
>> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
>> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
>> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
>> leads.
>>
>>
>>
>> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
>> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
>> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
>> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
>> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
>> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
>> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the
>> voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project
>> having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how
>> this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments
>> worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
>> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
>> *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
>> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> *2020 Code Language:*
>>
>> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*
>>
>> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for
>> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
>> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
>> and located within sight of the battery system.*
>>
>> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family
>> dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary
>> battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside
>> the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY
>> DISCONNECT”.*
>>
>> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
>> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
>> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected
>> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by
>> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be
>> permitted.*
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeremy Rodriguez
>>
>> Solar Installation / Design
>>
>> All Solar, Inc.
>>
>> 1453 M St.
>>
>> Penrose Colorado 81240
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not
>> specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI William B,

That is a good point.  And even beyond the potential CC damage, since your now 
potentially powering the inverter it could actually stay alive ( I’ve seen this 
happen ) or it can cause a voltage spike from the CC which can damage the  
inverter which I”ve also seen.


I don’t know what that section of the code is trying to do, but its doing it 
extremely  poorly.

jay




> On Jan 28, 2023, at 3:32 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> All
> 
> One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge 
> controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are 
> under full load. 
> Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the 
> charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Jeremy:
> 
>  
> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them 
> up.
> 
>  
> Chris:
> 
>  
> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or 
> both panel types”?
> 
>  
> All:
> 
>  
> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but 
> not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed 
> in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements 
> above and beyond the code.
> 
>  
> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well 
> as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter 
> from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is 
> running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected 
> from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid 
> home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads.
> 
>  
> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is pressure 
> pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by 
> the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the 
> DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential 
> fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to supply an AC 
> disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will 
> disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump. 
> 
>  
> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage 
> specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a 
> nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
> 
>  
> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this 
> works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth 
> trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some officials 
> are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
> 
>  
>  
> William Miller
> 
>  
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> ] On Behalf Of Jeremy 
> Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
> To: cwar...@entech-engineering.com ; 
> RE-wrenches
> Cc: Jeremy Rodriguez
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 2020 Code Language:
> 
> 480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.
> 
> (A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all 
> ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage 
> over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and 
> located within sight of the battery system.
> 
> N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a 
> disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system 
> shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for 
> emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.
> 
> N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 
> 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field 
> servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings 
> into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified 
> persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted.
> 
>  
> Jeremy Rodriguez 
> 
> Solar Installation / Design
> 
> All Solar, Inc.
> 
> 1453 M St. 
> 
> Penrose Colorado 81240
> 
>  
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not 
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Bryce via RE-wrenches]

All

One thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge
controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers
are under full load.
Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when
the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.

On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jeremy:
>
>
>
> Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked
> them up.
>
>
>
> Chris:
>
>
>
> What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or
> both panel types”?
>
>
>
> All:
>
>
>
> Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
> but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
> versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
> requirements above and beyond the code.
>
>
>
> It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
> well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
> inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
> generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
> disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
> of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
> leads.
>
>
>
> In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
> pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
> powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
> to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
> pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
> supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
> marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.
>
>
>
> By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage
> specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a
> nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.
>
>
>
> I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this
> works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth
> trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
> officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.
>
>
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
> *To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>
>
>
> 
>
> *2020 Code Language:*
>
> *480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*
>
> *(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for
> all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
> voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
> and located within sight of the battery system.*
>
> *N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family dwellings,
> a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system
> shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for
> emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.*
>
> *N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
> exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
> to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected
> strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by
> qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be
> permitted.*
>
>
>
> Jeremy Rodriguez
>
> Solar Installation / Design
>
> All Solar, Inc.
>
> 1453 M St.
>
> Penrose Colorado 81240
>
>
>
> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
>
>
>
> On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not
> specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no
> code reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot
> of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of
> money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris
>
> On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Glenn:
>
>
>
> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q
> with the building official:
>
>
>
> 4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC
> output of the inverter system from premise wiring?
>
> Yes, as required per 230.85
>
> 5.   Will you be 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jeremy:



Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them
up.



Chris:



What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or
both panel types”?



All:



Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials,
but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be
versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own
requirements above and beyond the code.



It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as
well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the
inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the
generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when
disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components
of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery
leads.



In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is
pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being
powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver
to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure
pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to
supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and
marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.



By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage
specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a
nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect.



I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this
works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth
trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some
officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.





William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AM
*To:* cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jeremy Rodriguez
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects





*2020 Code Language:*

*480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.*

*(A) Disconnecting Means.* *A disconnecting means shall be provided for all
ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a
voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible
and located within sight of the battery system.*

*N* *(B) Emergency Disconnect.* *For one-family and two-family dwellings, a
disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system
shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for
emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.*

*N **(C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits.* *Battery circuits
exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject
to field servicing shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected
strings into segments not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by
qualified persons. Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be
permitted.*



Jeremy Rodriguez

Solar Installation / Design

All Solar, Inc.

1453 M St.

Penrose Colorado 81240



Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.



On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:



Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not
specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no
code reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot
of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of
money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris

On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:

Glenn:



As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q
with the building official:



4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC
output of the inverter system from premise wiring?

Yes, as required per 230.85

5.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries
from the inverters?

Yes



If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s
time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, researching on my own
before posting and trying to make my questions very clear.  I also try not
to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally…



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM
*To:* 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

A dc-rated shunt trip breaker @ 250A (Blue Planet / OB Radian cabinet
breaker) would do the trick if they exist. The trip device could be mounted
outside.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 3:55 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Glenn:
>
>
>
> As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q
> with the building official:
>
>
>
> 4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC
> output of the inverter system from premise wiring?
>
> Yes, as required per 230.85
>
> 5.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries
> from the inverters?
>
> Yes
>
>
>
> If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s
> time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, researching on my own
> before posting and trying to make my questions very clear.  I also try not
> to embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally…
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM
> *To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Glenn Burt
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>
>
>
> Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or
> does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC
> within the house?
>
> Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the
> code evolves.
>
>
>
> -Glenn
>
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
>
>
> -- Original message--
>
> *From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches
>
> *Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM
>
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>
> *Cc: *William Miller;
>
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects
>
>
>
> Friends:
>
>
>
> We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The
> AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect
> there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become
> inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a
> waiver.
>
>
>
> The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of
> 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect
> equipment.
>
>
>
> To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters
> (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner
> outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.
>
>
>
> The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand
> yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system
> that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid,
> we will not have that luxury.
>
>
>
> I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high
> amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment.
>
>
>
> I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery
> disconnecting in these types of cases..
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
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-- 

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches]



2020 Code Language:

480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.

(A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all 
ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage 
over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located 
within sight of the battery system.

N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a 
disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall 
be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency 
use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.

N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 240 
volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing 
shall have provisions to disconnect the series-connected strings into segments 
not exceeding 240 volts dc nominal for maintenance by qualified persons. 
Non-load-break bolted or plug-in disconnects shall be permitted.

Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St.
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.

On Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:



Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, not 
specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with no code 
reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A lot of bad 
information from fire department solar consultants making a lot of money fear 
mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris

On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
Glenn:

As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the Q with 
the building official:


4.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC output 
of the inverter system from premise wiring?

Yes, as required per 230.85

5.   Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries from 
the inverters?

Yes

If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting everyone’s time 
with my post.  I try to be careful about that, researching on my own before 
posting and trying to make my questions very clear.  I also try not to 
embarrass myself with dumb questions, but that does happen occasionally…

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985


From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM
To: William Miller via RE-wrenches
Cc: Glenn Burt
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, or does he 
really just want the inverters to stop operating and producing AC within the 
house?
Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the code 
evolves.

-Glenn
Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--
From: William Miller via RE-wrenches
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches;
Cc: William Miller;
Subject:[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

Friends:

We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  The AHJ has 
said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I suspect there will be 
fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that would become inoperable if 
this system were engaged.  In this case we will apply for a waiver.

The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October of 2020. 
 At that time no one suggested any specific battery disconnect equipment.

To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 inverters (5 or 
6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV recombiner outputs.  
That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.

The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a brand yet to 
be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a system that can 
remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA lead-acid, we will not 
have that luxury.

I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high 
amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment.

I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote battery 
disconnecting in these types of cases..

William

Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com
CA Lic. 773985





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment?

[Peter Giroux via RE-wrenches]

Bruce

 

  Good morning, just reread your email. For some reason I thought you were 
asking about their batteries which have been great and pricing fair. We have 
yet to install any of the EG4,6000 or 6500. Know several installers that have 
and they are tough little work horses but not to be compared ( at least today ) 
to a Sol-Ark. 

 

  Have you had any issues with the Sol-Ark 15? We have two different sites 
where they were not connecting to the grid, only battery and solar. After 3 + 
weeks of going back and forth they finally admitted a firm ware problem. 

 

Thx

Peter Giroux

ASAE

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2023 12:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Bruce Erickson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment?

 

Hello All,

 

I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 
system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After getting 
my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he asked around 
a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended equipment called 
EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark plus offers server-rack 
Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. Looks like a cheap knock-off 
to me, and I said so, but promised to ask around. Anyone had any experience or 
know anything about these?

 

Thanks,

Bruce

 

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701 
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 



"Serving the Solar System"

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/




https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches]

Seems confusing that the AHJ is requiring a disconnect for AC wiring, 
not specific to which or both panel types, and then a dc disconnect with 
no code reference.  Was trying to convey a reasonable, safe approach.  A 
lot of bad information from fire department solar consultants making a 
lot of money fear mongering, which has led to this type of situation.  Chris


On 1/27/2023 3:35 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


Glenn:

As I wrote, a DC disconnect is required.  Here is an excerpt from the 
Q with the building official:


4.Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect the AC 
output of the inverter system from premise wiring?


Yes, as required per 230.85

5.Will you be requiring an external disconnect to disconnect batteries 
from the inverters?


Yes

If the DC disconnect was not required I would not be wasting 
everyone’s time with my post.  I try to be careful about that, 
researching on my own before posting and trying to make my questions 
very clear.  I also try not to embarrass myself with dumb questions, 
but that does happen occasionally…


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Friday, January 27, 2023 11:46 AM
*To:* William Miller via RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Glenn Burt
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

Does the AHJ really want the batteries disconnected from conductors, 
or does he really just want the inverters to stop operating and 
producing AC within the house?


Obviously there is a big difference here and it may be changing as the 
code evolves.


-Glenn

Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--

*From: *William Miller via RE-wrenches

*Date: *Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM

*To: *RE-wrenches;

*Cc: *William Miller;

*Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

Friends:

We have a large-ish residential off-grid system install coming up.  
The AHJ has said they will require a remote battery disconnect.  I 
suspect there will be fire sprinkler controls and a pressure pump that 
would become inoperable if this system were engaged.  In this case we 
will apply for a waiver.


The last time this was discussed here as far as I can find was October 
of 2020.  At that time no one suggested any specific battery 
disconnect equipment.


To further clarify my needs:  There will be 4 or 5 Radian 8048 
inverters (5 or 6 4/0 battery circuits, ~350A each) and two 175 amp PV 
recombiner outputs.  That is 6 poles of high amperage DC disconnects.


The battery array will be either a UnigyII VRLA or a lithium of a 
brand yet to be determined.  In the case of lithium we will look for a 
system that can remotely enable a BMS shutdown.  In the case of a VRLA 
lead-acid, we will not have that luxury.


I have done some considerable research and have not found viable, high 
amperage, remotely activated shutdown equipment.


I am wondering what hardware others may be using to achieve remote 
battery disconnecting in these types of cases..


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600 

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985


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--
            Christopher Warfel
                 ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
                                401-466-8978


BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:4.0
N:Warfel;Christopher;;;
TEL;VALUE=TEXT:401-447-5773 (c)
NOTE:Use the cell phone number for all communications.  Thank you.
URL:https://www.entech-engineering.com
END:VCARD
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