Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches]

Howie,

  Signature Solar gives there dealers a Tech email address and they are 
prompt to return communications, I've had several phone communications 
with them also that mostly went well, a year ago I didn't always get 
techs with a lot of experience and were less than helpful. I haven't had 
any failures of any kind yet, they tell me the BMS can be replaced in 
the field and I'm disappointed there are Wrenches reporting warranty issues.


 I've also worked with the Trophy Battery, they use high quality Eve 
Cells, when you call the number on the website the owner and designer of 
the battery answers the phone, Dan Keaton is great at answering 
questions, the Trophy website has extensive lithium battery information 
and battery manuals. The battery comes with a 10 year non-prorated 
warranty and the BMS is replaceable in the field.


 Carl Hansen

On 2024-02-18 1:58 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:

Carl,
Thanks for the update. That is encouraging!
My other major concern at this point is all the very negative comments 
to be found on the web about Signature's horrible, very bad, no good 
Tech Support and service.  It is true that the internet is littered 
with disgruntled comments about anything and everything, but many of 
these stories (including ones on the wrenches) are fairly specific and 
disheartening.  I assume by the fact that you continue to install 
their batteries, that that has not been your experience?


Howie Michaelson


On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 3:16 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Howie,

 I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I
originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to
experiment with before recommending them to clients, I quickly
ended up with 7 clients with them and all the installs are
performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID without comms
between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above freezing
with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary,
Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs
because of summer heat in central N.M.

 One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar
Techs started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to
20% SOC when commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS
could learn what the normal operating range would be for the
battery as to prevent early low voltage shut down events, I
thought this was going to be too burdensome for off grid clients
or for me,  a few clients didn't mind doing that commissioning
recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been any
issues.

 The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL
ratings, it has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down
on top of the battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat
orientation, I have a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but
most are mounted face up in the original insulated L16 or Surrette
industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar has said this
orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of the
battery.

  Carl Hansen

  Hansen Electric  505 470-0770


On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


All,

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in
general. I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback
about EG4, but not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from
folks who previously had decent things to say about them (E.G.
Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with updated reviews. I
have been seduced into using relatively new products that
promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more
times than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted time and reputation.

For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an
improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if
the client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go
that route.  There are certainly plenty of on going issues with
many of these relatively new products, some larger headaches than
I'm happy about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily
toward advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of
the immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low
maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the
argument for me.

I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the
chance to solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter
sales teams have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as
compatible with Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they
currently are configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly
a slipshod afterthought. There are several other areas they will
need to focus before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time.
However, as best I can tell, there 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Carl,
Thanks for the update. That is encouraging!
My other major concern at this point is all the very negative comments to
be found on the web about Signature's horrible, very bad, no good Tech
Support and service.  It is true that the internet is littered with
disgruntled comments about anything and everything, but many of these
stories (including ones on the wrenches) are fairly specific and
disheartening.  I assume by the fact that you continue to install their
batteries, that that has not been your experience?

Howie Michaelson


On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 3:16 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Howie,
>
>  I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I originally
> purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to experiment with before
> recommending them to clients, I quickly ended up with 7 clients with them
> and all the installs are performing without issues, these are all OFF GRID
> without comms between the battery and inverter, I'm keeping them above
> freezing with insulated battery box's and heating pads when necessary,
> Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs because of
> summer heat in central N.M.
>
>  One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar Techs
> started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when
> commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what the
> normal operating range would be for the battery as to prevent early low
> voltage shut down events, I thought this was going to be too burdensome for
> off grid clients or for me,  a few clients didn't mind doing that
> commissioning recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't been
> any issues.
>
>  The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL ratings, it has
> fire suppression pads in them that will melt down on top of the battery at
> high temps if they are mounted in a flat orientation, I have a few clients
> with the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in the original
> insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery box's, Signature solar
> has said this orientation will not void the warranty or effect operation of
> the battery.
>
>   Carl Hansen
>
>   Hansen Electric  505 470-0770
>
>
> On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
>
> All,
>
> Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm
> disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly
> surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent things
> to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with
> updated reviews. I have been seduced into using relatively new products
> that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times
> than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted time and reputation.
>
> For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an
> improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client
> is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that route.  There
> are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of these relatively new
> products, some larger headaches than I'm happy about. On balance however,
> my calculus leans heavily toward advantage Lithium. We can make
> work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, and their documentable
> efficiency and low maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win
> the argument for me.
>
> I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to
> solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams have
> chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid,
> because as has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid
> management has been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There are several
> other areas they will need to focus before I would deem the
> ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can tell, there is intense
> competition for market share right now, so if enough of the installer base
> pushes for these necessary changes, they will do there best to accommodate
> us.
>
> The areas I see needing significant improvements:
>
>- Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard
>industry wide protocols?)
>- True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
>- More finesse with the AGS controls
>
> And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, I'd
> be happy to hear about them on or off list.
>
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Drake:
>>
>>
>>
>> I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
>> good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
>> substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches]

Hi Howie,

 I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for clients, I 
originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my own system to experiment 
with before recommending them to clients, I quickly ended up with 7 
clients with them and all the installs are performing without issues, 
these are all OFF GRID without comms between the battery and inverter, 
I'm keeping them above freezing with insulated battery box's and heating 
pads when necessary, Cooling may be more of an issue in some outdoor 
shed installs because of summer heat in central N.M.


 One thing that came up that had me concerned was Signature solar Techs 
started recommending 3 or 4 deep discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when 
commissioning the batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what 
the normal operating range would be for the battery as to prevent early 
low voltage shut down events, I thought this was going to be too 
burdensome for off grid clients or for me,  a few clients didn't mind 
doing that commissioning recommendation but most haven't done it and 
there hasn't been any issues.


 The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has UL ratings, it 
has fire suppression pads in them that will melt down on top of the 
battery at high temps if they are mounted in a flat orientation, I have 
a few clients with the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in 
the original insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery box's, 
Signature solar has said this orientation will not void the warranty or 
effect operation of the battery.


  Carl Hansen

  Hansen Electric  505 470-0770


On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


All,

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. 
I'm disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but 
not overly surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously 
had decent things to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) 
would chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced into using 
relatively new products that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" 
before, only to more times than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted 
time and reputation.


For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an 
improvement over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the 
client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them to go that 
route.  There are certainly plenty of on going issues with many of 
these relatively new products, some larger headaches than I'm happy 
about. On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward advantage 
Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most of the immediate problems, 
and their documentable efficiency and low maintenance (along with 
fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me.


I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to 
solve that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams 
have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with 
Lead-Acid, because as has been noted, as they currently are 
configured, Lead-Acid management has been a mostly a slipshod 
afterthought. There are several other areas they will need to focus 
before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However, as best I can 
tell, there is intense competition for market share right now, so if 
enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes, they 
will do there best to accommodate us.


The areas I see needing significant improvements:

  * Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard
industry wide protocols?)
  * True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
  * More finesse with the AGS controls

And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, 
I'd be happy to hear about them on or off list.


Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Drake:

I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are
pretty good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH
settings.

I agree that as features grow so does complexity. However there is
no substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can
understand much better the operation of systems with easy access
to historic data and I save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the
Outback and Sunny Island files could be obtained remotely for
better analysis.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once
the equipment became software 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

All,

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm
disappointed to see the overall negative feedback about EG4, but not overly
surprised. I was hoping to hear from folks who previously had decent things
to say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would chime in with
updated reviews. I have been seduced into using relatively new products
that promised to improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times
than not, end up frustrated with wasted time and reputation.

For our work in VT, LiFePO4 batteries, so far, are enough of an improvement
over lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the client is willing
to spend the money, I encourage them to go that route.  There are certainly
plenty of on going issues with many of these relatively new products, some
larger headaches than I'm happy about. On balance however, my calculus
leans heavily toward advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most
of the immediate problems, and their documentable efficiency and low
maintenance (along with fewer holes in my clothes) win the argument for me.

I have yet to see a BMS failure, but I'm sure I'll have the chance to solve
that problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales teams have chosen to
market the new hybrid inverters as compatible with Lead-Acid, because as
has been noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid management has
been a mostly a slipshod afterthought. There are several other areas they
will need to focus before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However,
as best I can tell, there is intense competition for market share right
now, so if enough of the installer base pushes for these necessary changes,
they will do there best to accommodate us.

The areas I see needing significant improvements:

   - Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter communication (standard
   industry wide protocols?)
   - True Lead-Acid programming capabilities
   - More finesse with the AGS controls

And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports about EG4 equipment, I'd
be happy to hear about them on or off list.

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Drake:
>
>
>
> I prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries.  Full river 2 volt L-16s are pretty
> good and they allow one string configuration in larger AH settings.
>
>
>
> I agree that as features grow so does complexity.  However there is no
> substitute for good remote monitoring and control.  I can understand much
> better the operation of systems with easy access to historic data and I
> save a butt-load of driving.  I wish the Outback and Sunny Island files
> could be obtained remotely for better analysis.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 17, 2024 9:43 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment
>
>
>
> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet