Re: [RE-wrenches] adjustable back legs for mounts

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jay,

I second Jeff Randall, but his company is now called Solar Rackworks, no
longer RC Fab. Thry are making all of the old-style roof/ground mounts that
DPW dropped.

Brian
AEE Solar

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 4:48 PM, jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I’m having trouble finding adjustable slide style back legs for a client
> who wants to adjust his low profile array.
> I can’t find them from Iron Ridge, Unirack, DPW,
>
> Where/who can I get them from?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
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-- 
Brian Teitelbaum
Application Engineer
AEE Solar, Inc.
Redway, CA
Tel: (805) 242-7856
Toll Free 1-800-777-6609 ext 7856
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hurricane damage to solar arrays

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Thanks for the early report Jason. Be safe down there.

I would be cautious about those modules that were so violently tossed
about, even if the glass is intact. They may be full of cell micro fractures

It would be interesting if we had IR images of working arrays from before
and after a huge wind event like that, to see if there is any degradation
of output. Maybe there are enough monitored systems with historical data
now to see the effects, if any.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

On Wed, Sep 13, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm based in Fort Myers and we cover the hardest hit areas from Irma. We
> are in the "stuff" right now, so I'll make this brief until I have more
> time, which might be a while. We are seeing quite a bit of minor damage and
> some major damage. We're getting calls from all dealers' customers and a
> couple of our own clients. We have several homes with one or two panels
> dislodged. There is no rhyme or reason. Some are middle of arrays, some on
> edges. Panels are ripped right off rails, leads ripped from microinverters.
> Strangely, it looks like the panel j-box connection and MC4 connectors
> survived better than the microinverter end of the DC leads. Amazingly, we
> have several panels that were blown onto driveways, other roofs, and pool
> cages with NO DAMAGE except frame scrapes. Very weird. We haven't seen a
> shattered panel yet, but it's early.
>
> I'm heading to a self-storage facility tomorrow where there are three 25kw
> systems on different buildings. Two buildings are unscathed. One building
> lost ALL of the panels apparently. Tornado? Hard to say.
>
> So far (other than the 25kw I have not evaluated) we have not seen a
> single fastener pulled out. All of the failures are panel top and mid
> clamps at this time. Anchor and rails remain intact. Possibly installation
> errors? Possibly sheared off T-bolts? Hard to tell and we may never fully
> know.
>
> We generally require 48 inch spacing between anchors into trusses for
> engineered systems. The pullout values are pretty high. It looks like the
> attachment points into the roof are not going to be the failure point in
> the systems in Florida, but there is a LOT of work to be done still. It's
> going to be a very interesting few months ahead!
>
>
> ​Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group​
> ​
>
> On Tue, Sep 12, 2017 at 3:09 PM, James Rudolph <jamesrudolp...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Aloha Everyone,
>> I was just wondering how all the PV arrays did during these storms?
>> Does Florida have higher pull out values and wind designs for their
>> PV/H20 systems?
>> Is there any thing the rest of us could learn from all this?
>> Photos?
>>
>>
>> Mahalo Nui Loa,
>>
>>
>> *James B. Rudolph*
>>
>> *Hawaii Unified*
>>
>> *Director of Energy*
>>
>> *ES Electrician # 10816*
>>
>> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155*
>>
>> *80*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rodent/Pigeon/Critter Guards

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Benn,



You might want to take a look at the SnapNrack Array Edge Screen system



It’s universal since it attaches to the module frames, not the racking.
Looks pretty nice too.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Benn Kilburn
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:07 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rodent/Pigeon/Critter Guards



I'm hoping to get some feedback on this topic, as there was none when I
posted it back in 2015.



Our region is seeing more and more problems with pigeons nesting under PV
arrays, mostly on new homes in newly developed areas of the city.

We have been called to some sites that had particularly bad problems with
pigeons nesting and pigeon poop covering the roof itself (surprisingly more
so that the array, unless it is just the rain washing it off the modules
easier than the roof?) and the eavestroughs filled with poop and
overflowing onto the ground.



We really want to nip this issue in the butt since none of us want people
associating PV systems with pigeon problems. We have heard that some of
these problem houses have a neighbourhood reputation as "the pigeon house".



Has anyone tried and had success with any of the solutions "other than" the
wire mesh and J-hooks??? I'm not confidant that the j-hooks are robust
enough to last very long. We often have several on each install that the
washer simply will not hold  tight.

(See the prior post below for some other suggestions)



Thanks!

Benn

SkyFire Energy


On Jul 22, 2015, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn <b...@skyfireenergy.com> wrote:

Wrenches,

I've looked and found a few older threads on the topic but thought it is a
good time to refresh our collective info on this as we are getting more
requests to install these (and it is also going to be required by code on
some systems when our province adopts the 2015 Canadian Electrical Code.
We currently use the 2012 code)

The issue that we are directly addressing is mostly pigeons hanging
out/nesting under rooftop arrays, for now.  I haven't heard of any specific
rodent issues in our region.

I have installed the SnapNRack Edge Screen.  This was on a concrete tile
roof so the problem i saw with that was the screen did not contour the
tile, leaving a small gap where one tile overlaps the one below it, roughly
25mm (1").  This would not be an issue with keeping out pigeons, but i
could imagine that a persistent rodent could squeeze its way thru the small
gap.  This would not be an issue on the more common asphalt shingle roofs
and i would say it is a solid product.

The products i'm aware of are:

SnapNRack

Kinetic

Heyco

spiffysolar
solatrim.com

Kinetic, Heyco, and Spiffy each seem to be basically the same; wire mesh
and a j-hook that attaches to the module frame.

SnapNRack is wire mesh but attaches with a more more robust clip that also
provides more vertical support to the mesh. (It was suggested that rodents
may be able to push under the mesh when its only supported at the top with
j-hooks)

I've seen the wire mesh installed so that it comes down only as far as the
roof, so the height of the mesh is essentially the height from the top of
the mod frame to the roof surface, but i have also seen it where the mesh
is taller than this and the excess (rather than being trimmed to size)
comes down and lays out on the roof in an outward direction.  It was
suggested that this may be more of a deterrent to rodents that would
otherwise push their way under the mesh if it only comes down to meet the
roof.

Comments/Suggestions?



The last product mentioned, solatrim, is completely different from the
rest. It looks much more solid that the rest and uses a peel-and-stick
approach using a 3M adhesive tape.  My first and only initial apprehension
with this one is the adhesive.  While 3M makes darn good adhesives, it
leaves to question how it will hold up against our seasonal ambient
temperature swings of above +30degC to below -40degC.  Their spec sheet
states it is good btwn -34.4degC to 149degC. So for me to even try it would
not be within the mfgr's specs :(

What products have you used?  What did you like/dislike about them?

Cheers,

*Benn Kilburn *

CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc

6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7

P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com

[image: email] <b...@skyfireenergy.com> [image: facebook]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

That complicates it a bit. If you have 200A coming in from the grid, and
another 200A coming in from the inverters (4 x 48A = 192A), you will need
to size the wire to the transfer switch for 400A. In a fault condition,
you could potentially see that much amperage on those wires before the
200A grid breaker trips (which will cause the grid-tie inverters to shut
down).

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 4:33 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question

Sorry, 200 amp main breaker in a 400 amp rated panel.


> Hi Daryl,
>
> From your description, yes, if you are attaching to lugs connected to
> busses and then to the 400A main breaker, with no other overcurrent
> device between, you would have to size the wire for the 400A rating.
>
> Brian Teitelbaum
> AEE Solar
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> On Behalf Of penobscotso...@midmaine.com
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 4:10 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question
>
> I re-read and see that I need to clarify my earlier question. The 400
> amp,
> 120/208 panel has a main breaker that will be used for the utility
> input, coming in on 3/0 copper.  The four 60 amp breakers will be used
> because the four 10 kW inverters maximum ac output is 48 amps each (x
> 1.25 =60 amps ocpd). On the opposite end of the 400 amp panel there
> are main lugs which will be used to feed the generator transfer
> switch, essentially, because the inspector says we cannot put more
> than "two in, one out" on the gentran. These wires to the gentran are
> what I am wondering how best to size. Common sense tells me they
> should be rated the same as the main panel breaker from the utility. Is
this a correct assumption?
>
>
>> Esteemed wrenches,
>>We're working often in the Bahamas and now that net metering is
>> approved there, the inspectors are far behind in their comprehension.
>> That said, we are currently required to combine the utility with the
>> PV in a main load center before going to the generator transfer
>> switch. I have a 400 amp rated load center with a 200 amp, 120/208
>> main breaker on it, as well as four 60 a, 3 pole breakers that will
>> be fed from four
>> 10 kw inverters. My question is, will it be necessary to use wire
>> rated at 400 amps or can I use wire rated for the main breaker? Thank
>> you for your input. It might be a stupid question, but I am stymied
>> hereit might just be the Lyme, not sure.oh, and it's CEC 2015
>> down there, but I suspect it will align with NEC 2014.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Daryl DeJoy
>> NABCEP Certified PV
>> Penobscot Solar Design
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator choice for Sunny Island

[Brian Teitelbaum]

August,



I don’t have a specific recommendation on a generator, but I do want to
make a few points considering your setup.



Since you only have one Sunny Island, you can only use a 120 VAC input. So
you will need a generator that either only has 120V output, or can be
re-configured for full output at 120V.



Some generators have a switch marked “120/240 VAC” on one side and “120 VAC
only” on the other, which will work if you switch it to the 120V only side.
Some generators just have a “full-output 120V” twist-lock plug on them, and
that will work too. Some hard-wired generators allow you to rewire them to
get full output at 120V.



However, if the generator is a 120/240 unit, and has no provision to full
output at 120V, you will need a second transformer to step the 240V down to
120V.



If you connect the SI up to just one leg of a 240V generator, you will only
get half of the generator’s rated power, and you will greatly unbalance the
genny, since you will only be pulling power from one leg. This is hard on
the generator’s bearings and will shorten its life (the bearing on the end
of the alternator’s rotor seems to get the biggest beating). You might also
get erratic AC voltages on the output. I don’t recommend it.



Another thing with “portable” generators is that if they have normal
receptacles on them, there may be an internal bond between ground and
neutral. This can be a problem. It’s been years since I have installed any
generators, but I tried a number of times in the past to separate the
bonding only to then have lost function of the remote start capability. If
this is the case, the only solution that I found was to not run the ground
wire from the genny to the inverter (it would only end up being a parallel
neutral if I did, since there is a bond at the power system where it should
be). Not exactly to Code, but safer.



I did recently read through a manual on a new Honda unit (7 kW I think),
and it specifically said that the neutral and ground were not internally
bonded. Great for connecting to an inverter system with its own bonding.
Check the manual, or do a continuity test, on whatever generator you end up
choosing.





Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *August Goers
*Sent:* Thursday, June 15, 2017 2:33 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator choice for Sunny Island



Good question – I was assuming a regular gasoline genny mostly because the
container will be moved from time to time. Whatever type of fuel, it
definitely has to be portable.



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Chris Mason
*Sent:* Thursday, June 15, 2017 12:03 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator choice for Sunny Island



Sho you want diesel,  propane or natgas?

Nathan is more reliable as it does not require a refuel.





On Jun 15, 2017 12:02, "August Goers" <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:

Hi Wrenches, especially those of you who work on off-grid projects,



We have an upcoming off-grid project where we will be powering a storage
container with electronics in it. The loads are mostly 120 volt but there
is a 240 volt heat pump that might occasionally run. We’re AC coupling the
Sunny Island with a Sunny Boy PV inverter. So, we’ll be installing a
Outback PSX-240 autoformer to bump the Sunny Island’s output from 120 to
240 volt.



We need to select a generator for backup. We need a two-wire electric start
(in order to be controlled by the Sunny Island) and preferably a generator
that is okay just running 120 volt loads since the Sunny Islands input is
only 120 volt. Something in the 3 kVA -7 kVA range should be fine.



Does anyone have experience or ideas about what kind of two-wire start
generator we might select?



Thanks,



August

Luminalt






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Daryl,

>From your description, yes, if you are attaching to lugs connected to
busses and then to the 400A main breaker, with no other overcurrent device
between, you would have to size the wire for the 400A rating.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 4:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question

I re-read and see that I need to clarify my earlier question. The 400 amp,
120/208 panel has a main breaker that will be used for the utility input,
coming in on 3/0 copper.  The four 60 amp breakers will be used because
the four 10 kW inverters maximum ac output is 48 amps each (x 1.25 =60
amps ocpd). On the opposite end of the 400 amp panel there are main lugs
which will be used to feed the generator transfer switch, essentially,
because the inspector says we cannot put more than "two in, one out" on
the gentran. These wires to the gentran are what I am wondering how best
to size. Common sense tells me they should be rated the same as the main
panel breaker from the utility. Is this a correct assumption?


> Esteemed wrenches,
>We're working often in the Bahamas and now that net metering is
> approved there, the inspectors are far behind in their comprehension.
> That said, we are currently required to combine the utility with the
> PV in a main load center before going to the generator transfer
> switch. I have a 400 amp rated load center with a 200 amp, 120/208
> main breaker on it, as well as four 60 a, 3 pole breakers that will be
> fed from four
> 10 kw inverters. My question is, will it be necessary to use wire
> rated at 400 amps or can I use wire rated for the main breaker? Thank
> you for your input. It might be a stupid question, but I am stymied
> hereit might just be the Lyme, not sure.oh, and it's CEC 2015
> down there, but I suspect it will align with NEC 2014.
>
> Thanks again,
> Daryl DeJoy
> NABCEP Certified PV
> Penobscot Solar Design
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] string fusing with 3-channel MPPT inverters

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Kirk,



Yes that is correct. On a three-input inverter, you could have as many as 6
strings of modules, 2 per MPPT input, and you would not need any
overcurrent protection on any of the strings.



One of the beauties of inverters with multiple MPPT inputs. Along with the
fact that the strings can be different lengths, orientations, and even be
different modules in each string.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Kirk Herander
*Sent:* Friday, May 26, 2017 1:01 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] string fusing with 3-channel MPPT inverters



I’m installing a 3-input SMA 7.7kw inverter. Someone just mentioned to me
string fusing, normally required for >2 inputs may not be required since
each input has it’s own MPPT circuit. In essence treated like separate
single MPPT inverters for fusing’s sake. I don’t believe it, but opinions?
Thanks.



*Kirk Herander*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC *

*Celebrating our 26th Anniversary 1991-2017*

*www.vermontsolarnow.com *

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM  2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Larry,



This is not a new idea. It’s called “Vehicle-to-Grid” or “V2G”, and is a
big subject of discussion in Europe.



If everyone had an electric vehicle in their driveway, it would represent a
huge (yuge?) distributed battery bank over the whole country. I think
that’s a great idea.



As far as I know, the SolarEdge “StorEdge” 7.6 kW inverter is the only
inverter with this capability right now, although many other inverter
companies are working on inverters that can operate with high-voltage
batteries. The StorEdge is designed to work with the Tesla home battery,
which is basically a smaller version of the Model-S battery pack. The
inverter would have to be programmable to work with the battery’s BMS, and
limit the discharge so that the vehicle’s battery is only drained to some
set-point. You wouldn’t want to completely drain the battery, at least not
if you want to use the vehicle.



I doubt that it would make any economic sense at this point in time, but
the future is bright.



Brian

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Starlight Solar Power Systems
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 22, 2017 11:17 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Discharging a high voltage battery



Hello Wrenches,



Someone has asked me about discharging their EV battery into the grid. They
have an existing grit tie system. What they want to do is connect a 5kW
grid tie inverter to their 340 volt, 32kWh EV battery bank and feed the
grid to discharge the battery. Why was not discussed but sure bugs me.



My uneducated guess is the inverter will be immediately damaged. My thought
is how would it limit the input current? Or, is there such an inverter
available that can do the job?



Any input is appreciated.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update

[Brian Teitelbaum]

William,



This is a learning experience for all of us. I for one really appreciate
you posting the information here.



Brian

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *William Miller
*Sent:* Thursday, November 17, 2016 11:11 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Update



Friends:



Here is what I have learned so far:



1. Not everyone at Outback was aware that we had almost certainly
eliminated user meddling as a possible cause.  I assured them again that
the equipment is behind a locked door.  Because they did not know this they
were not aware that the system apparently reprogrammed itself.  They now
know this.  I apologize for insinuating Outback was not taking this
seriously, they just did not communicate internally.



2. Everyone I have spoken with at Outback is concerned and acting in a
positive, professional manner to get this sorted out.



3. I can't say anything for certain regarding the cause.  The net result is
that the inverter programming was scrambled, but I won't hazard a guess as
to how this happened.



In case anyone misunderstands, I am a fan of the Outback equipment line and
of the people that work at Outback.  I just have concerns about the
software.  As equipment becomes more software intensive and more connected,
 even the best hardware can be rendered inoperative by software problems.



Several of you have contacted me off-line asking to be kept updated.  I
will continue to do so.  It is most efficient for me to do so on-line.  If
the information is not of interest to most of you I can easily take this
off-line.  I trust Michael can give me guidance on that point.



William
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hola Marco,



Advanced Energy was purchased by Beacon Power way back when, so you might
contact them to see if they have a manual. If you Google “Beacon Power M5
inverter” you can find a spec sheet, but I didn’t see the manual anywhere.



Brian





Brian Teitelbaum

Applications Engineer

AEE Solar, Inc.

Redway, CA

Tel: (805) 242-7856

Toll Free 1-800-777-6609 ext 7856

bteitelb...@aeesolar.com

www.aeesolar.com







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Marco Mangelsdorf
*Sent:* Monday, November 14, 2016 2:04 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Advanced Energy MM 5 inverter



Hola Wrenches,



I’m in search of a spec sheet and manual for a 2002 vintage Advanced Energy
Multi-Mode 5 kW inverter.



Looked on-line to no avail.



Please send to me off-line if you have these docs.



Mahalo,

marco



[image: provision_highres_solar_logo2 with C-26351]

Marco Mangelsdorf, President
69 Railroad Avenue, A-7
Hilo, Hawai'i 96720
(808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile
www.provision-solar.com <http://www.provisiontechnologies.com>






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Re: [RE-wrenches] gen-start module for the older SW5548+

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Chris,



If you can’t find one of the original GSM units, you can use a standalone
GSM like the Atkinson GSCM or the Magnum non-networked AGS.



Brian

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Chris Daum
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 27, 2016 11:40 AM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] gen-start module for the older SW5548+



Dear people:



I have a fellow with an older Xantrex inverter (SW5548+), and am trying to
find him the GSM (generator start module) for it.  Does any one have one
they can part with, or know where I can get one?



Please contact me off list if you do.  Thanks!



Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Solid advice from both Ray and Allan.



Switching to a sine-wave inverter will solve the controller issue, but not
the 300W glow bar draining the batteries. Switching to a Peerless-Premier
would solve that problem, or use an old Wedgewood range like I do. My
6-burner/two oven gas Wedgewood from the early 40’s works great, and will
likely last for centuries, but it does take 4 gorillas to move the damn
thing. It must weigh 600 lbs, although I’ve never weighed it.



Brian

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
*Sent:* Monday, September 19, 2016 4:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Issue with DR1512 and oven



Kristopher,
Ray's advice is sound, and I'll add: that 14 year old inverter is likely to
last forever, and that's not a reason to keep using it. It's almost
certainly the crude waveform that's causing the issues.
If range replacement remains the only option, talk with Peerless-Premier (
www.premierrange.com). As of my last contact with them a few years ago,
they still make unadvertised models with circuit boards that were designed
for original Trace mod-square inverters and have no glow bars for the oven.
Our family home has a decent Pro series (stainless front with sealed
burners) with electric igniters and no glow bar.
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
*al...@sindelarsolar.com* 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*



On 9/19/2016 4:46 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Thanks Ray,

This is a circa 2002 inverter.  I may just tell them to go to a pilot light
stove model (hate to waste gas, ya know).

Kris



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 5:39 PM, Ray Walters <*r...@solarray.com*
> wrote:

Sounds like ovens have gotten more complicated over the years.  As soon as
I read "control board" and modified sine wave, I cringe.  The good old DR
inverters worked great, I even ran my own shop on one for several years
back in the 90s.  I for the most part quit selling them though, as even
though most equipment worked on the mod sine, we started noticing premature
failures.  I would attribute this to the extra heat generated by all the
extra harmonic distortion.  Sorry I can't recommend an oven; they probably
would be better going to something older form Craig's list with no AC
connection at all.

R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

*303 505-8760* <303%20505-8760>

On 9/19/2016 4:35 PM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

Hi Wrenches,

I have a client that has blown out 2 control boards on their oven in the
last few months.  The appliance is a Whirlpool Model WFG515S0EW0 powered by
a Xantrex DR1512.  Since this is an off-grid home, i recommended that they
get an LP stove with no oven glow bar and this was the unit that the
appliance company supplied.

Has anyone seen this before (i am assuming incompatibility of the circuitry
with the modified sine wave output)?

Can you recommend another model that has been tried and true (preferably
Whirlpool)?

Thanks tons,

Kris


-- 

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
*www.legacysolar.com* 
*715-653-4295* <715-653-4295>
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE



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Re: [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Allan,



TUV is now an accepted NRTL, but the equipment still has to Listed to
applicable UL Standards to mean anything. Testing only to European
standards doesn’t cut it here.



“CE” is meaningless here also.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
*Sent:* Friday, August 26, 2016 11:56 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NRTL certification question



Wrenches,
And now for something completely different... are TUV Rheinland or CE
module certifications valid yet in the US?

I was called to consult for an off grid client who had purchased 40 250W
generic Chinese modules through a friend who got them on Ebay... yeah,
right. I got to be the one to tell him that I didn't think his $6,000
purchase ($.60/watt) could be used in a permitted/inspected system, as the
modules lacked the proper NRTL certification on the label. I sure hope for
his sake that I'm wrong, and I said I would ask here.

These are Qunsheng New Energy, model QS-250P. No UL, ETL, CSA
certification, just the ones above plus ISO.

Where can one find a list of NRTLs?

Thank you,
Allan

-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
*al...@sindelarsolar.com* <al...@sindelarsolar.com>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jeremy,



Without digging into the specs on the Ideal connectors, I doubt that they
will work with fine-stranded wire.



The problem with these types of connectors is that the set screw that you
turn to tighten the connection is in direct contact with the wire strands.
As you tighten it, it rubs the strands in a circular motion, which will
stretch, flatten, and tear the strands. It would work fine if you use
ferrules, but not without them.



Terminals that are rated for direct use with fine-stranded wire would have
a clamping-type terminal, where the screw used to tighten the connection
pushes down on a solid piece of metal which then clamps the wire. Even in
this case, it may still not be approved for fine-stranded wire depending on
its design.



The Buchanan splices should be fine. They are basically the same as a
ferrule, except that they are crimped with a crimping tool instead of the
pressure from tightening a screw in a bus bar. The crimping tool is not in
direct contact with the wire strands, so there is no tearing or other
damage to the wire. However, the spec sheet does not specify the acceptable
wire types, and I can’t seem to find anything with a Google search. It
might be worth contacting Buchanan/Ideal to see if they have better info.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jeremy Rodriguez
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 10, 2016 6:32 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Pass through/transition box for Enphase



How about these?

https://idealind.com/us/en/products/wire-termination/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-connectors/set-screw-wire-connectors.aspx

Jeremy Rodriguez

Solar Installation And Design Expert

All Solar, Inc.

1463 M St

Penrose Colorado 81240



Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!


On Aug 8, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Benn Kilburn <b...@skyfireenergy.com> wrote:

Din rail mounted terminal blocks Weidmuler WDU6 or WDU10, depending on
the wire size you are using.

Benn Kilburn

SkyFire Energy Inc.

780-906-7807


On Aug 8, 2016, at 12:49 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

I'm looking to bring 8 Enphase 240V circuits in multiple conduits into an
enclosure inside the attic where I can transition to Romex. I'd rather use
some kind of rail mounted terminals in an enclosure or something rather
than making splices in a generic j-box. I'm not looking to combine circuits
- just transition from THWN to Romex and keep things neat an organized.



Any suggestions?



Jason Szumlanski







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper roof

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Daniel,



S5! Makes some clamps out of brass, specifically for copper roofing panels



http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_893.cfm#9



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Tittmann
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 09, 2016 1:53 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Standing seam metal roof attachments for copper
roof



We have just found out that a project that we have won the contract on had
chosen a corten standing seam roof that does not support aluminium clips
due to copper content and potential corrosion of the clips.  Has anyone
found a cheaper work around than getting a custom Stainless Steel clamp?

Thanks

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com

dan...@greenwired.com

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jay,



Is that 140 “feet” of head, or really 140 psi (about equal to 323 ft of
head at sea level)? I’ll assume the 140 psi



And I’ll assume that you want to run the pump PV-direct, without batteries
or an inverter.



Can the “well” be dug deeper? If they can dig it out another few feet or
so, creating a deeper pool, that would keep the drawn-out water much
cleaner



You might want to look at the Grundfos CRFlex surface pumps. They have
motors with the same AC/DC voltage specs as the SQFlex pumps, but they also
have a control panel where you can adjust the motor speed. These pumps do
have higher water flow-rate specs, but maybe you could adjust it down
enough to get the 3-4 gpm rate. According to the pump chart, the CRFlex
model 1-17 will pump about 4 gpm at 328 ft of head with about 750W of
power. Unfortunately, I don’t have enough experience with these pumps to
know for sure about the ability or limitations of adjusting the motor
speed,  but I am looking for a Guinea Pig. (If any of you fine Wrenches out
there have any experience with adjusting the CRFlex motor speed, please
contact me off-list)



Jay -  contact me off-list if want to discuss using one of these pumps.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jay
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 02, 2016 9:44 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Pump ideas



Hi all



I've got a pump choice question



140psi lift

3-4gpm max

12' suction out of shallow well

2' water depth in well

2' diameter well

Slight sediment, clay mostly.



120/240vac power



Submersible won't work, too shallow

Slow pump I'm concerned about filter changes

Surface pump makes most sense.



Any recommendations?



Thanks



Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different Modules on 2nd string

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Ash,



Are you sure that there are 12 of the SolarWorld 175’s on a single string?



Those were 72-cell modules, and I would think that having 12 in series in
CO would see open-circuit voltages over 600 VDC at least on some occasions.
That’s 864 cells in series, with would be about equal to having 14.4
typical 60-cell modules in series. That sounds too high to me for CO.



One option would be to reduce the number of 175’s to 10 (720 cells in
series) and match them with 12 of the 60-cell modules (also 720 cells in
series). The older modules are 5” cells, so their amperage would be lower,
but as long as you get the voltage as close as possible it should be fine.
Of course, this doesn’t account for degradation, so you may want to do some
actual voltage measurements on the old modules.



One thing though – since twelve 280W modules is about 3360W, and you have a
3kW inverter, there really isn’t enough room to add. The older Sunny Boys
had a much narrower MPPT voltage range, so I doubt that you could use
strings shorter than nine 60-cell modules. I don’t see how you would be
able to add much to the old inverter anyway. Adding a second inverter
system may be your only option, unless you can find some used 175’s. 18 or
20 of the 175’s, in two strings, should work fine on the 3kW Sunny Boy.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ash Bowersock
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:48 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Add-On to DGT, string inverter, w/Different
Modules on 2nd string



Good day RE Wrench crew,

I’ve got a client whom installed a 2kW array with a 3kW SunnyBoy inverter a
number of years back. Due to the age of the system I assume it is single
MPPT. The client oversized his inverter in the hopes of using it for this
future expansion (and unfortunately his installer went along with it). The
original modules were 12 SolarWorld 175’s I believe, and we would be
looking at adding SolarWorld 280’s more than likely. To me it is clear that
this is poor design practice and not something I am willing to do. My
recommendation is a micro-inverter system that we tie in w/his existing
using an AC Combiner. But the client wants to know exactly why we don’t
want to just add a second string of 12 SolarWorld 280’s to his 6 year old
SunnyBoy inverter.

Can someone please give me a technical reason why mixed modules on a string
inverter is “poor design practice”?

The more technical and dry an explanation, the better ;)

If you can’t convince them, bore them to tears with the details.



Ash Bowersock
Senior System Designer

[image: RGS Energy] <http://www.rgsenergy.com/>

833 W. South Boulder Road | Louisville, CO 80027
tel 303.222.8387

*RGSEnergy.com* <http://www.rgsenergy.com/>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Tom,

Your link doesn't work. You have to remove the first "t". It's "Satic"

Here is the correct link:

http://www.saticusa.com/wordpress/

Brian
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Lane
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 3:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Group thoughts on Power Perfect Box from Static USA

Question  , The Power Perfect Box www.StaticUSA.com a line conditioning ,
power quality , phase quality , UL listed is used by several solar and
electrical contractors . MIT reports 99 % reduction in EMF and THD , also
reducing electrical energy created as heat and improves DC -to - AC
inverter conversion . It is installed at the breaker panel and also acts
as a surge protector . Claims made to increase solar production by 2% to 3
% and 3% reduction in electrical cost and to make LEDS , CFLS, AND
APPLIANCES LAST LONGER AND reduction of heat in computers , lap tops , etc
. Also stops Smart Meters  from data retrieved over hard wired electrical
systems and reduces EMF from Smart meters . My commercial and residential
electrician with 30 years of contracting hates Smart Meters and rages
about the EMF Heath threats to pregnant women , children , and old coots
like me . My accountant sez it can count for the IRS credit if installed
with solar for Power Conditioning . Other solar g  uys are selling it and
it seems to have a high ROI at $395 to a dealer . If the group believes
this is snake oil or suede shoe nonsense let me know . The claims for
savings are reasonable . GatorTom soon to be hiking for 5 months on the AT
.

Tom Lane - Sent from my iPad
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Re: [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter with 2 MPPT's

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Al,



As long as you only have a max of two strings going into each of the
separate MPPT channels, no string fusing is needed. So with four strings,
two on each MPPT input channel in the inverter, no string fusing is needed.
This is one of the big advantages to having multiple MPPT channels in GT
inverters.



No need to run separate conduits either. All four PV string circuits can be
run in a single conduit, as long as the conduit is properly sized for wire
fill, of course.





Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Allen Frishman
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2016 6:12 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] fusing requirement for 4 strings run to a Inverter
with 2 MPPT's



Wrenchers,

What is the requirement for fusing 2 strings per MPPT? Specifically for
an inverter like the Fronius Primo that has no integrated fuses.If you
run 2 strings to each MPPT do you need to fuse each string?In this case
there is a total of 4 strings which would need to be fused if using a
single mppt.



If the home runs are run in separate conduits from the array to limit the
strings in the conduit to 2 per you still have all 4 strings together in
the inverter.



All thoughts and feedback are appreciated.

*Al Frishman*
AeonSolar

*(917) 699-6641 <%28917%29%20699-6641> - cell*
*(888) 460-2867 <%2%29%20460-2867>*
*www.aeonsolar.com <http://www.aeonsolar.com/>*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Daniel,



Very strange problem.



While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt that
it’s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage in the morning,
but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher?



At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high voltage
is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not voltage.



My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller.
Larry’s “wild guess” might be on the mark. Do you have another Classic to
swap out with?



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Tittmann
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping?



An update on this issue:

On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS settings
higher volt start and % state of charge start.  The report from the client
is that this has fixed the AGS issue.  So now I am just dealing with the
100 amp breaker tripping.



The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once
reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could cause
this?



You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker that
will be the first on the list when I am back on site.  I hope that is the
only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the shop with no cell
or internet coverage.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers-

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com

dan...@greenwired.com

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)



On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Daniel,

Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points
that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is
collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do
you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping?

I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner.  Is
there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)?
Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker.

How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels?

On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" <jay.pe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Daniel



Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore?



What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits
faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into
the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing
with enough light to get the CC alive



If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should
give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too
big a load or both.



But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing
any issues with the AGS/inverter



You could always try another CC and see what happens



Jay



Peltz power






























On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann <dan...@greenwired.com> wrote:

Hive mind-

hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue.



System:

Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters.

Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and
NMEPV100

18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered)



Issue:

every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping.  from what I can
gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error.  Re set
the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day.



Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than
at commissioning and recent testing.



Of course on site i cant get it to fail.



Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system
under load... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt
breaker issue.



last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100
directly to the battery  + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in
the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem.



I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the
inverters and the AGS.



Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com

dan...@greenwired.com

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

But boB…



Wouldn’t you end up with a bi-polar battery bank?



Or just a bi-polar installer?



Seriously though, I have never seen such a thing either in my 30+ years of
working with battery systems. It’s kind of like using an L16 as the last
battery on a string of golf-cart batteries. Yes, it would go through
less-deep discharges than the smaller batteries, but would it last longer?
These folks seem to think so. Interesting idea, but not sure that they
really gain anything for the extra cost.



Brian

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *b...@midnitesolar.com
*Sent:* Thursday, October 01, 2015 2:23 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Five L16s in a 24V string?




I would think that doing this would be asking for un-balanced batteries in
the string (un-equal battery voltage)

But I guess I can't argue with success ?

Put the positive battery in the middle then so it won't be on the end ?
:):-)

boB



On 10/1/2015 2:07 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Took about a minute to draw with Pages on a Mac.

On Oct 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:



….Larry, nice drawing below. What did you use, as I need to learn it too?


Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
*al...@sindelarsolar.com* 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Ron,

I'll pipe in here. If the module "works" when he bypasses the diodes, then
the diodes, or the solder connections on the ribbons or the diodes, must be
at fault.

I put "works" in quotes because we don't have the details on the meter
readings.

Brian
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ron Young
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 11:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] panel failure

Thanks Allan, I was wondering about the lack of response as this group is
always very helpful. One begins to suspect the phantom cause, i.e. the rest
of the story that wasn’t told to us by the customer. It happens from time to
time ;-)

Ron

> On Sep 15, 2015, at 9:07 PM, Allan Sindelar 
> wrote:
>
> Ron,
> The lack of response may indeed be your answer. I didn't reply because it
> hasn't happened on my watch and I have no idea what would cause what you
> describe.
> Allan
>
>> On Sep 15, 2015, at 8:30 PM, RM You  wrote:
>>
>> Just wondering if any esteemed wrenches have an idea what could cause
>> this problem? Customer says nothing unusual happened that he is aware of
>> and the panels had been working fine for many years but now 4 of 6 panels
>> just quit. Doesn’t appear to be a diode failure.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 4:58 PM, RM You  wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a customer who has 6 siemens 48w panels that are 20 years old
>>> (hooked in parallel to a 12v battery). He says that 4 of them have
>>> failed in that there is no output unless he bypasses the diodes. However
>>> he pulled the diodes and checked them on a diode check and separately on
>>> a battery with a light bulb and they appear to be functioning correctly.
>>> Any ideas what could be causing this anomaly?
>>>
>>> Ron Young
>>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Dan,



If your customers are gone for more than a few days, they should turn the
heater off and drain the water out of it. That is what I do with my 25
year-old Aquastar, although I don’t have to turn it off because it doesn’t
use electricity. But I do drain it to keep it from freezing. In fact, I
drain the whole house in the winter when I leave since the wood stove is
not keeping it warm if I’m not there. I did come back to broken pipes a
time or two before I got smart.



Brian

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Dan Fink
*Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2015 11:03 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] off-grid propane tankless water heater advice



Louis; I have seen that pilot light save off-grid on-demand water heaters
from freezing many times!



Often old technology has advantages that don't make it into new, high-tech
equipment press releases.



 Since I work so far off grid and only with small systems, the newer water
heaters needing 120VAC supply don't let inverters go into Search Mode when
the residents are away for days, weeks or months. I know Search Mode is a
relic from a decade ago when PV was expensive, but smaller systems still
rely on it.



Best regards;


Dan Fink

Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute

IREC Certified Instructor™ for:

~ PV Installation Professional

~ Small Wind Installer

Executive Director, Buckville Energy

NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342






On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 11:20 AM,  wrote:

Hello Rebekah,



I have had no luck in getting the older style without AC required either.

I agree that these newer devices that require AC are better performers.



Some of these(most ?) have a built in anti-freeze protection scheeme.

It is made from a ceramic heating element(HI-WATT RES.) that will come on
at a default internal temp.(typ=36 to 38deg F).

When this antifreeze circuit turns ON there is around 100 to 200W(I would
have to go measure to be sure) of power consumed.

When installed in cold climates this circuit will be used.



On the older non-ac units the standing pilot light can protect against some
freezing;However I would not count on this alone in cold climates.



This is something to be aware of.

Hope this helps.



Louis Segarra
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Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi William,

The AEE Catalog is available for viewing online by anyone, even if they
are not an AEE dealer.

Just go to the AEE website (aeesolar.com), click on Browse our products,
enter your name and email address, and hit submit.

It's a big file (26MB), so it might take a little time.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of william.mil...@millersolar.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 1:56 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker

Jay:

I am not an AEE dealer so I cannot even access the catalog.  Are you a
dealer, or is anyone else on this list?  Can you look up this part number?


CF1-H3-U
CF1--H3-
U-0060-01C

This breaker mounts on a bulkhead and has lugs in and out.  The value is
60 amps.

Thanks,

William Miller


Lic 773985
millersolar.com
805-438-5600


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of jay
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 8:45 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] APT Beaker

HI William,

AEE carries them.  Pg 173, CF/GJ breakers.

jay


 On Jul 18, 2015, at 3:58 AM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com
wrote:

 Friends:

 I am adding an MPPT charge controller to a functioning APT power
 center. I
need one breaker for the job. The breakers are like those used in the
Trace
DC250 cabinets but surface mount. Where do I look for one of these,
please?

 Thank you very much.

 William



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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jerry,



2.5% loss is fine, especially considering the cost of reducing that
further.



Remember that you are calculating the line loss at the peak power output of
the array, at noon on a sunny day. Since the array will only provide peak
output for a rather small part of the day (unless you have a tracking
mount), your losses will be much less most of the time. At 50% of peak
sunlight, you will only have 50% of the voltage drop. Efficiency on a less
than fully sunny day will be very high, as will mornings and afternoons on
a sunny day.



Voltage drop losses in PV source circuits are not nearly the problem that t
used to be when PV was very expensive and before we had MPPT charge
controllers. Back in the day when we had 36-cell modules, or even 33 or
35-cell modules, charging 12V batteries, and we only had relay or PWM
controllers, it was very important to reduce voltage drop as much as we
could. First, PV power was very expensive, so it was cost effective to
spend more money on wire. Secondly, because the array voltage was only
slightly higher than the battery voltage, too much voltage drop in the
wiring could drop the charging voltage below the voltage that the battery
needed to get fully charged, especially on hot days.



Now, with PV “cheap” and MPPT controllers allowing array voltages way above
the battery voltage, these are not big problems anymore. Certainly, any
lost power is indeed lost power, but it doesn’t affect the actual
functioning of the system.



I think that if you were to calculate the “cost” of the lost power due to
using a smaller gauge wire, it would be below the cost of the larger wire.
On a 3 kW array (60A at 50 VDC) a 1.5% loss (the difference between 2.5%
and 1% losses) is only 45W. That’s only about $40 worth of PV, and less
than a quarter of a kWh/day average in a 5 peak sun-hour location. Your PV
sizing for an off-grid system shouldn’t be so tight that this would make
any real difference I n system performance.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer
*Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2015 10:38 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] DC conductor line loss numbers



Wrenches

Some time back there was discussion on the conductor size and efficiency
rating requirement for long DC runs.

What I am looking at is this, 400 feet of MCM 400 to keep the line loss at
or below 1% per NEC code for an off grid application, cost vs return is not
acceptable. 2/0 is less than 2.5% and the cost is far less. Specs are 4
strings of 3, 250 watt modules feeding one Outback FM 80 charge controller.
There are lots of things I can do like SMA instread, or 200 VDC charge
controller but nothing can be changed except the wire gauge. Does anyone
recall a thread with this topic.

thoughts ??

Jerry
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hey Allan,



For many years, my wife and I have been using an old 6’ long claw-foot tub
as our hot tub on the mountain. The 6’ tub is large enough, but very cozy
for two people. We just run straight hot water from our Aquastar propane
water heater into it, which gets it very hot. It takes a little time to let
it heat up the cast iron tub, which cools it down just enough for a great
soak. It stays hot for a pretty long period of time, but If it gets too
cool, we just run more hot water into it.



Then we just use the gray water for garden irrigation the next day. No
chemicals, filters, or electricity needed.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
*Sent:* Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:05 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Chofu Hot Tub Heater



Wrenches,
I have an off grid client who wants a hot tub, and would prefer a propane
heater rather than wood. The Chofu appears to be the only unit that doesn't
require a circulation pump. He had located this on his own, but told me
that The propane fired, self igniting, hydrosiphoning Chofu is no longer
available domestically. Seems the Japanese do not wish to export these to
the USA anymore.  I will keep looking as this was the most sane idea for
the project and of course cheapest. Chofu listed on Island Hot Tub is
currently unavailable. I talked to him a week ago and it sounded like there
was no availability for the foreseeable future.

Does anyone have a line on where one can be located before they're all
gone? Or a good alternative?

Thanks, Allan

-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
*al...@sindelarsolar.com* al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump.....

[Brian Teitelbaum]

John,



The part numbers and a parts diagram can be found in the SHURflo manual,
here:



http://legacy.shurflo.com/pdf/industry/solar/911/911-9325-043-101.pdf





Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *John
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 18, 2015 1:09 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump.



Hi Jay,  thanks for that info – as a matter of interest, do you happen to
have a Shurflo part number for that  “End Bell Brush kit”  Where do
you obtain that part from?



Also appreciate your comments on Sunpumps  Grundfos
SQflex.Cheers,John V



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *jay peltz
*Sent:* Wednesday, 18 February 2015 4:50 a.m.
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Shurflo 9325 pump.



Hi john



What you are looking for on the brushes is



End bell brush kit. $27



But I highly recommend Sunpumps brand submersible pumps. Vastly superior
design, much easier to repair, and connecting the wires is super easy and
won't leak



On the overall pump design all these diaphragm pumps require rebuilding or
they will fail internally, then leak, then fill up with water which is kind
of hard on them.



If you look at life cycle cost, the grundfos SQflex, is a much better deal,
IMHO



Jay



Peltz power.








On Feb 16, 2015, at 11:49 PM, John j...@gosolar.co.nz wrote:

Hi all,



Can I call on the expertise of anyone involved with these pumps.   The
problem seems to be that the manufacturer wants to supply **kit** of parts
and not individual parts, like the brushes, which apparently need to be
replaced every year. Same with the cable adaptor – you have to buy a
kit that includes all sorts, when you only need one individual piece.



I realize why the manufacturers do this, but if you only need brushes, why
have to buy a whole Upper Housing kit.   And the Lower Housing kit only
seems to have the Beige/cream colored diaphragm instead of a black one –
are the black replacement ones unobtainable??



Also buying outside the U.S. poses a problem as agents don’t always have
what you need/want.



These are a good little pump and it appears they are a part of the great
Planned Obsolence way of the world, replacing next higher assemblies
instead of the required necessary parts.   Any good contacts on the West
Coast for some bits  pieces for these good little pumps.



Cheers for any  all help/advice – John
Veix,  New Zealand

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Larry,

I have not found a battery charger nearly as programmable as the chargers
in inverters are, and I've sold a number of inverters over the years which
were destined to be used strictly as battery chargers.

This is actually a great use for modified-square-wave inverters. The
Magnum RD2212 has a 110A charger section, and is relatively inexpensive. I
doubt that you would find a better deal, even with the added cost of the
Magnum remote unit you will need to program it. Magnum has smaller 12V
inverter/chargers too, of course.

Also a great use for old Trace SW inverters, if you can find an SW2512. I
measured the charging efficiency of an SW4024 once and came up with 72%.
Not bad at all, for a battery charger.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 3:04 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Programmable Battery Charger

Wrenches,

Does anyone know of a 120/12 volt battery charger that can be programmed
for absorb and float voltage and time in absorb mode? I have been needing
this product for many years but I can only find it in inverters with built
in chargers from Magnum, Outback, and Xantrex.

--
Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Ron,

What you describe with using a pressure switch and pressure tank, and just
running the pump with 240 VAC, is fine. You don't need the CU-200 to do
any of that, if all you are doing is switching AC. The diagnostics is
nice, but probably not worth the cost in this kind of simple setup.

One issue though. The SQFlex pumps are not exactly instant-on. There is a
slight delay between when power is applied and the pump starts. Just make
sure that you use a large enough pressure tank to keep the pressure from
dropping too far before the pump starts filling it. You may have to raise
the starting pressure on the switch a little above where you set the
minimum pressure, to let it fall some at startup.

When it becomes time to replace the pump (hopefully many years from now),
I would just go with a Grundfos SQ straight AC pump instead of the Flex
model. If you are not going to be using a PV-direct arrangement, there is
not much advantage in using the Flex pumps.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ron @ earthRight Solar
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:21 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex

Hello water pumping Wrenches, I have a customer who has a Grundfos SQFlex
11 pump and he is getting connected to the grid. He will still have his
battery back up charged by PV and wants to look at the most efficient way
to operate the pump. It seems to me that neither the IO101 or the CU200
really is needed and he could just wire directly to the inverter output at
240v via a pressure switch on a standard pressure tank for most efficient
operation. Although this doesn't give any access to the Grundfos built in
diagnostics that display on the CU200.

Would you recommend keeping a CU200 in the system or is it overkill? With
the CU200 the max voltage is 120 whereas without it I can go with 240v and
a more efficient operation. unless I am missing something.

Ron Young
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jay,

You are correct about the CU-200. It has an operating voltage range of
30-300 VDC and 90-240 VAC.

However, the IO-101 transfer switch is another story, and I think that is
what Ron meant. Up until recently Grundfos was only importing the 120 VAC
version of the IO-101, but now you can get the 240 VAC version here also
(it's basically the European 230 VAC model).

One thing to note though with the IO-101 is that its max DC voltage is only
225 VDC (even though the pumps and CU-200 are good for 300 VDC), so make
sure the PV array it's connected to is below that.

Brian
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 6:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grundfos SQFlex

Hi Ron

Where did you read that the CU 200 is only good for 120vac. The manual I see
shows 240vac 50/60hz?

Jay
Peltz power.




 On Oct 20, 2014, at 6:21 PM, Ron @ earthRight Solar
 solarea...@solareagle.com wrote:

 Hello water pumping Wrenches, I have a customer who has a Grundfos SQFlex
 11 pump and he is getting connected to the grid. He will still have his
 battery back up charged by PV and wants to look at the most efficient way
 to operate the pump. It seems to me that neither the IO101 or the CU200
 really is needed and he could just wire directly to the inverter output at
 240v via a pressure switch on a standard pressure tank for most efficient
 operation. Although this doesn’t give any access to the Grundfos built in
 diagnostics that display on the CU200.

 Would you recommend keeping a CU200 in the system or is it overkill? With
 the CU200 the max voltage is 120 whereas without it I can go with 240v and
 a more efficient operation… unless I am missing something.

 Ron Young
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 1.5 MW Off Grid

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Phil,

Bad idea. There is absolutely no financial advantage to going off-grid, at
least if the grid is already installed. Batteries are a lot more expensive
per kWh than grid power.

And pretty soon they will be at war with each other over who left the
d**n loads on and drained the battery.

They should just do a straight grid-tie system, or separate systems for
each business, to offset the utility power usage. Of course, grid-tie with
battery back- up of critical loads might be a good idea, if they truly
have critical loads.

That said, I hear that the reanimated Satcon is developing large
battery-based inverters. I haven't checked on their progress lately
though.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Phil Theis
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 11:52 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1.5 MW Off Grid

A PA business park is serious about taking their loads off grid.
Whose systems would you recommend for this size system?
Thanks,
Phil Theis
PennSun Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Assembly Protects Conductors?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

To at least partially answer Ray's question about Class-R fuses: Square-D
Heavy Duty fused disconnects, commonly used as DC discos for PV arrays and
which use Class-R fuses, are only rated for 80% duty. The non-fused HD
discos are 100% rated in PV systems. I'm not sure if that is because of
the fuse rating or the fuse holder rating though.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 6:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Assembly Protects Conductors?

Most combiner boxes, DC rated breakers, and DC rated fuses and fuse
holders we use today, qualify as assemblies for the 100% exception
(Outback, Midnite, etc.) so you only have to size the OCP by 125% of
short circuit current rating for edge of cloud effects.
Since the conductor is sized based on the overcurrent protection, you do
not need to size it to 156% of the short circuit current rating, if you
take advantage of 100% duty rated breakers and combiners.  Also,
recombiners are still basically combiner boxes, and so all the same rules
apply.  The additional 125% is only for breakers that are rated at 80%
(most AC breakers for example) .
For DC, the only time you would size for the full 156% would be if you
were using something like an old QOU breaker, and those aren't rated for
high enough voltage for today's arrays anyway.   I'm not aware of any
other readily available DC rated breaker that is NOT 100% duty rated.
Some RK5 fuse assemblies may also not be 100% rated. (Wrench Colleagues
please correct me on this) Basically unless you are using surplus
equipment from the stone age, (no offense to my fellow stone age wrenches)
you only need to oversize the conductors by 125%.  By the time you apply
all the other applicable deratings for conduit fill, terminals rated at 75
C, and direct sunlight on roofs (table 310.15B3c)  and consider voltage
drop, you really don't need to keep oversizing.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 8/22/2014 2:34 PM, ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote:
 Folks,

 In looking at a circuit breaker based re-combiner for the first time,
 I am now pondering the meaning of the Exception below:

 NEC 2014 690.8 (B) Conductor Ampacity. PV system currents shall be
 considered to be continuous. Circuit conductors shall be sized to
 carry not less than the larger of 690.8(B)(1) or (2).

 (1) One hundred and twenty-five percent of the maximum currents
 calculated in 690.8(A) before the application of adjustment and
 correction factors.

 Exception: Circuits containing an assembly, together with its
 overcurrent device(s), that is listed for continuous operation at 100
 percent of its rating shall be permitted to be used at 100 percent of
 its rating.

 Just to be clear, it is only the assembly that can be used at 100
 percent of its rating. (Isc*number of strings*1.25) The conductors in
 the circuit still have to be sized for continuous operation
 (Isc*number of strings*1.25*1.25).

 I ask because a vendor with a 100% circuit breaker re-combiner states
 in their cut sheet that use of the device allow smaller home run
 cable sizes from the string combiner to the inverter. Is anyone aware
 of a means by which this claim can be substantiated?

 Thanks,

 Mark Frye
 Berkeley Solar Electric Systems


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Re: [RE-wrenches] High specific gravity

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Mac,



Sounds to me that “someone” (ahem…) added some sulfuric acid to the cells
instead of plain distilled water.



Either that or there is some sort of contamination in there that is raising
the density or “weight” of the fluid beyond just what the proper amount of
acid would do. “Specific gravity” is just a measurement of how heavy the
fluid is compared to plain water (specific gravity of 1.00). Sulfuric acid
is heavier than water, so when mixed will increase the density and raise
the weight of the fluid. Temperature effects the measurement too of course.



If it turns out that acid was added, you can balance them out by removing
some of the electrolyte from the high cells and replacing it with distilled
water. It would be a process of trial and error to get them all the same.
Remove a little, add some water, equalize again, measure S.P. and repeat as
needed.



Leaving the electrolyte too strong will shorten the battery life, although
maybe not enough to go through this ritual.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2014 6:55 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] High specific gravity



Hello wrenches,



I just went on a service call for a new client.  He had a bank of 4 year
old Interstate L16HCL batteries, 2 strings of 8, 48V system, 840Ahr.  We
went through the batteries and got specific gravity on all of the cells
post-equalization.  I was a bit surprised to see some very high numbers ie
over 1.32 for the specific gravities (higher than my refractometer goes).
 The specific gravities were all over the place, but I haven't seen numbers
this high.  I don't have a great explanation.  He has a stacked 3648 VFX
Outback system, and the set-points were 58.8V Absorb for 2 hours, and 62V
Equalize for 2 hours.  He has a decent amount of solar (about 3400W) and a
1000W wind generator.



Any ideas why the specific gravity is so high on some cells?  Also, is
there anything wrong with having SG this high, post-equalization?  For this
very standard battery, what settings do you go with (Bulk, Absorb, Float,
Eq, and times for Abs and Equalization).



Thanks in advance






-- 







Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. *-Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Thanks boB and Robin. Good explanation.



I wish that SMA would be more clear on this in the manuals. It shouldn’t be
that hard.



Do other inverters with built-in transfer relays also self-protect against
over-current? I’ve never wanted to try my luck.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *b...@midnitesolar.com
*Sent:* Friday, July 04, 2014 2:14 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit




I'll let Robin weigh in here as well...

Brian, It used to be very clear on the older 5048 Sunny Island. They wanted
a 70 amp breaker connected to the input. They were assuming a thermal
breaker. 70 times .8 = 56. We use hydraulic/magnetic breakers. They only go
up to 60 amps and can be ran at full current continuously. You cannot feed
a 56 amp circuit with less than a 56 amp breaker, so 60 works just fine.
The Sunny Island does shut down above 56 amps. SMA is not counting on a
breaker to keep from breaking the inverter. That would never work. The
breaker is there to protect the wiring, not the relay or anything else in
the inverter.

Thanks,

Robin


On 7/4/2014 11:30 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Thanks for the clarification boB.



I would still however like to get confirmation from that the Sunny Island
does indeed protect itself from AC current over 56A. It says nothing to
this effect in the literature (at least that I can find), and would seem to
contradict the “Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny
Island” that it actually does say.



Steve, if you see this, could you please confirm the automated AC current
protection circuitry?



If we don’t get a reply from Steve on this list, I’ll contact him directly
and post his reply here, although it might be after the Intersolar show
next week.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *b...@midnitesolar.com
*Sent:* Friday, July 04, 2014 11:11 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit





The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56 amps.  I think it
shuts off.

The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring.  Customers
complain when they cannot
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next nominal
current breaker below 60 A.

Thanks,
boB


On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Yes it is. But since you have to install inverters based on the
manufacturer’s requirements, SMA’s instructions trump MidNite’s, IMHO.



Since MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those E-Panels, I
can only assume that either it’s an oversight on both of their parts, or
that SMA is being very conservative on the switch rating in their
installation manual and “Technical Description”, where that line I quoted
is repeated. This wouldn’t surprise me, but if so SMA needs to issue a
correction.



Maybe boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some info…



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Ray Walters
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is what is actually being used in
the UL listed E Panel from Midnite.

R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760

On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

Mac,



Be careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in the SMA SI5048
is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the SI manual:



“The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A. Higher
input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island.”



To protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A breaker
(unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in your AC panel). Since most
common AC breakers are only rated for 80% duty, you would need to limit
that 50A breaker to a continuous 40A load. That’s more than the max output
current of the Fronius 10.0-1, although it’s debatable that the output of a
PV inverter is “continuous”. It certainly could be in some situations,
especially with a tracker mount, although even with a fixed array, you
could see max rated output for at least a couple of hours per day.



I agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array on a 5kW Sunny
Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and using two Sunny Boy 5000’s. Using
two Islands would eliminate the need for a transformer, and allow for full
array power during grid outages.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



Hi Wrenches,



Jerry, I think you are correct, sma gear all around would be best

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Mac,



Be careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in the SMA SI5048
is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the SI manual:



“The maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A. Higher
input currents must not be connected to the Sunny Island.”



To protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A breaker
(unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in your AC panel). Since most
common AC breakers are only rated for 80% duty, you would need to limit
that 50A breaker to a continuous 40A load. That’s more than the max output
current of the Fronius 10.0-1, although it’s debatable that the output of a
PV inverter is “continuous”. It certainly could be in some situations,
especially with a tracker mount, although even with a fixed array, you
could see max rated output for at least a couple of hours per day.



I agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array on a 5kW Sunny
Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and using two Sunny Boy 5000’s. Using
two Islands would eliminate the need for a transformer, and allow for full
array power during grid outages.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar







*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Mac Lewis
*Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit



Hi Wrenches,



Jerry, I think you are correct, sma gear all around would be best.  This
will be my recommendation but I am sensitive to this substantial cost.

Dave, if I add the second Sunny Island, I don't think I will be throttled
back because the transfer relays are rated for 60A.  This should pass the
full current of the output of the Fronius, which is 41.7A.  My concern is
more during backup mode, if the Sunny Islands could trick the Fronius
into staying on line.  I would add either load dump relay control or an AC
interrupt relay to knock the Fronius off-line if the batteries were full,
in addition to the frequency shift control that the Sunny Island offers.



Thanks for the input, I'll shoot for all SMA gear.



Thanks



On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu wrote:

Mac, that Island interconnects with a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW
continuous), so unless they have a constant critical load draw or the
Fronius is massively oversized, you probably don't want to AC couple the
Fronius. The 5048 is also able to output a continuous 5000W only when it's
cooler than 77F and it derates above that (4500W at 95F, for example). I
don't believe its surge ratings apply to the AC2 output back into the
utility but they probably wouldn't be enough, anyway. I think that whenever
the Fronius output reached about 6000W, the SI would shift its frequency to
switch the Fronius off. Cheapest may be along the lines of your first
option-- not sure what the PV stringing is like but maybe you could move a
string or two off the Fronius and put it onto a new Sunny Boy with an
autoformer. Since I imagine this system doesn't have PV WIRE on the module
leads or home runs, officially I'd recommend a classic Sunny Boy. Then
leave the Fronius as-is.

Unless of course the customer thought they were buying a system with the
full 10kW supplying critical loads when the utility is down... then the
original contractor is stuck with buying the second SI they should have
installed in the first place.

DKC




On 2014/7/3, 10:46, Mac Lewis wrote:

Hello wrenches,



I wanted to run this scenario by the forum.  I have spoken with SMA about
this, but want some other opinions.



We were recently contracted by a fellow solar company to do some warranty
work for them out of town on a Sunny Island system that they had installed
about 5 years ago.  It was VERY poorly implemented originally and was never
installed as SMA intended.  In fact, during a small power outage, the only
loads that never came back on after the utility was back on line were the
loads in the critical load panel.  Oops.



Anyway, our job is to get it working properly for the least amount of cost
possible.  They have a Fronius IG Plus 10.0 fed into a 400A service panel.
 The Sunny Island 5048 AC Input also comes off of this panel and feeding a
120V only critical load panel.  Please note that there is no solar fed into
the AC output side of the Sunny Island, because there is not 120/240
available and thus there is no possible way for this system to utilize the
solar while the grid is not present.



I see two options (but there may be more): pull out Fronius, put in Sunny
Boy inverters and an autoformer, wire properly.  Another option is to add
second Sunny Island and try to AC couple the Fronius with the two Sunny
Islands.  The second option is less expensive overall, but I'm hesitant to
rely on AC coupling with the Fronius.



I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.



Thanks










-- 







Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. *-Sócrates*



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Roy has an excellent suggestion...if you have constant AC power available. 

In fact, if you use the Grundfos SQE models, they come with a constant-pressure 
controller so you don't need a large pressure tank,  and it also has dry-run 
protection features.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 3:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

I would recommend using a Grundfos SQ 120 or 240 volt AC pump on a timer.
Because you mention using a conventional pump, I assume that there's AC power 
available?

The SQ line is very efficient and has no surge at start up. And it's a lot less 
expensive than the SQF line of pumps.

Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(r)
NYSERDA eligible PV  wind installer
IREC Certified Master Trainer(tm) for Small Wind Installer Four Winds Renewable 
Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Join us at the 10th Annual Small Wind Conference A Gathering of Installers, 
Manufacturers, Dealers,  Distributors June 17 and 18, 2014 in Stevens Point, 
Wisconsin www.smallwindconference.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of 
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

 

On 5/7/2014 5:28 PM, All Solar, Inc. wrote:
 Static level is 200 feet
 Well produces ~1 gallon per minute.  4 inch casing.
 200 gallons per day requirement

 Jeremy Rodriguez,
 President

 All Solar, Inc.
 1463 M
 Penrose Colorado 81240
 719-372-3808 office
 719-372-3804 fax
 www.asolarelectric.com

 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

 On May 6, 2014, at 6:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum bteitelb...@aeesolar.com 
 wrote:

 Hi Jeremy,

 PV-direct pumps operate at variable speeds depending on the amount of 
 sunlight and time of day, so a GPM figure is not very helpful in sizing the 
 pump. It's useful info if the water source will not produce more GPM, since 
 you don't want to over-pump the source, but it's not enough info to do 
 proper design.

 What are you pumping out of? Well, pond, spring box?

 How many gallons per day (GPD) do you need delivered, on average? GPD is a 
 much more useful figure for sizing PV-direct pumps.

 Is that 600 ft of head measured from the standing water level to the top 
 of the storage tank, as just elevation change and not distance?

 A 600 foot-deep well might actually have a standing water level at 300-400 
 ft. Even if the pump is set at 600 ft, it only takes energy to lift water 
 from its standing level, so your head figure would be inaccurate if that is 
 the case.

 If it's a well, what is the diameter of the well casing?

 What are the peak sun-hours at the site during the darkest time of year that 
 the water is needed?

 There are lots of other questions to ask, but these should help a lot.

 Brian Teitelbaum
 AEE Solar


 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, 
 Inc.
 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 5:08 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

 Hi all,
 Any recommendations for a low flow, high lift pump, PV direct pump.
 1 GPM @ 600 ft of head. Maybe   a conventional pump on a timer?


 Jeremy Rodriguez,
 President

 All Solar, Inc.
 1463 M
 Penrose Colorado 81240
 719-372-3808 office
 719-372-3804 fax
 www.asolarelectric.com

 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jeremy,

A Grundfos SQFlex model 3 SQF-3 will run on just two 250W 60-cell modules in 
series. At 600 feet of head, with 500W of PV, it will do just about 1 gpm at 
noon peak. 

However, if the static level is 200 ft in a 600 ft deep well, you have a lot of 
water storage sitting in the well casing. That will allow you to pump at a rate 
above the well's underground inflow for some period of time. A 4 well casing 
holds about 0.6 gallons per foot. The pump will start out only having 200 ft of 
head, so it will pump at a faster rate, but as the water level drops, the 
flow-rate will drop off. Hopefully it will reach equilibrium, or the tank will 
be full, before the pump runs dry. And of course, the amount of sunlight will 
decline as the day gets later, slowing down the delivery rate, so it may not be 
an issue at all. The SQF pumps have a low water sensor that will shut the pump 
off if it does run out of water. If you find the pump shutting off due to low 
water before the day's sunlight is over, you can also just turn the PV array 
away from due south to limit output.

Another strategy to control pump flow rate is to drill a hole in the pump 
output piping to allow some of the pumped water to flow back into the well, 
reducing delivery. Or just install a tee in the pipe above ground, put a valve 
on it (gate or ball valve), and run a pipe from the valve back into the well. 
That way you can adjust the valve to get the exact bypass needed for delivery 
flow control.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, Inc.
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 2:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

Static level is 200 feet
Well produces ~1 gallon per minute.  4 inch casing. 
200 gallons per day requirement

Jeremy Rodriguez,
President

All Solar, Inc. 
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!

 On May 6, 2014, at 6:43 PM, Brian Teitelbaum bteitelb...@aeesolar.com wrote:
 
 Hi Jeremy,
 
 PV-direct pumps operate at variable speeds depending on the amount of 
 sunlight and time of day, so a GPM figure is not very helpful in sizing the 
 pump. It's useful info if the water source will not produce more GPM, since 
 you don't want to over-pump the source, but it's not enough info to do proper 
 design.
 
 What are you pumping out of? Well, pond, spring box? 
 
 How many gallons per day (GPD) do you need delivered, on average? GPD is a 
 much more useful figure for sizing PV-direct pumps.
 
 Is that 600 ft of head measured from the standing water level to the top of 
 the storage tank, as just elevation change and not distance?
 
 A 600 foot-deep well might actually have a standing water level at 300-400 
 ft. Even if the pump is set at 600 ft, it only takes energy to lift water 
 from its standing level, so your head figure would be inaccurate if that is 
 the case.
 
 If it's a well, what is the diameter of the well casing?
 
 What are the peak sun-hours at the site during the darkest time of year that 
 the water is needed?
 
 There are lots of other questions to ask, but these should help a lot.
 
 Brian Teitelbaum
 AEE Solar
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, 
 Inc.
 Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 5:08 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump
 
 Hi all,
 Any recommendations for a low flow, high lift pump, PV direct pump. 
 1 GPM @ 600 ft of head. Maybe   a conventional pump on a timer?
 
 
 Jeremy Rodriguez,
 President
 
 All Solar, Inc. 
 1463 M
 Penrose Colorado 81240
 719-372-3808 office
 719-372-3804 fax
 www.asolarelectric.com
 
 Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
 ___
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List Address: RE

Re: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jeremy,

PV-direct pumps operate at variable speeds depending on the amount of sunlight 
and time of day, so a GPM figure is not very helpful in sizing the pump. It's 
useful info if the water source will not produce more GPM, since you don't want 
to over-pump the source, but it's not enough info to do proper design.

What are you pumping out of? Well, pond, spring box? 

How many gallons per day (GPD) do you need delivered, on average? GPD is a much 
more useful figure for sizing PV-direct pumps.

Is that 600 ft of head measured from the standing water level to the top of 
the storage tank, as just elevation change and not distance?

A 600 foot-deep well might actually have a standing water level at 300-400 ft. 
Even if the pump is set at 600 ft, it only takes energy to lift water from its 
standing level, so your head figure would be inaccurate if that is the case.

If it's a well, what is the diameter of the well casing?

What are the peak sun-hours at the site during the darkest time of year that 
the water is needed?

There are lots of other questions to ask, but these should help a lot.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, Inc.
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 5:08 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low flow high head pump

Hi all,
Any recommendations for a low flow, high lift pump, PV direct pump. 
1 GPM @ 600 ft of head. Maybe   a conventional pump on a timer?


Jeremy Rodriguez,
President

All Solar, Inc. 
1463 M
Penrose Colorado 81240
719-372-3808 office
719-372-3804 fax
www.asolarelectric.com

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Oddball pumping question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Allan,

Chris is on the right track here. Instead of just accepting that they need one 
huge pump, what you have to do is determine what they are actually trying to 
accomplish. You will need to know what the total pumping head is and how many 
gallons per day they need to pump. You will also need to know how they are 
using the water. If they are just flood-irrigating, where the water just flows 
out at no pressure, that won't add to the head, but if they are using large 
Rainbirds or pivot sprinklers, they will need at least 50 psi at the delivery 
end to run those sprinklers properly. 50 psi not only adds about 120 feet of 
head, but it also makes PV-direct pumping harder to do because the pump will 
run at variable speeds depending on the amount of direct sunlight, which is 
going to limit the daily pumping time (tracker mounts might help here). If they 
can install a large tank up on a 120 foot-high hill, then they can get constant 
50 psi pressure from the system.

If it's a large diameter well casing (another piece of info needed), you could 
use multiple smaller solar pumps. I have one customer who was able to get two 
Grundfos SQFlex pumps down a 5 well, but certainly if you have something like 
a 36 casing, you could fit a bunch of small pumps in there.

If, however, it's determined that you really do need one huge pump, I suggest 
that you contact WorldWater and Solar Technologies. They have PV direct pump 
controllers that can power pumps up to 600HP. Here's their link:

http://www.worldwatersolar.com/capabilities/solar-projects/

I've have not personally dealt with WorldWater, but it looks like they will 
only do a complete installation themselves, so it cuts you out of the project. 
Maybe you can get a finder's fee or something.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2014 7:20 AM
To: Allan Sindelar; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Oddball pumping question

I have a couple of suggestions. A pump motor of that size is likely Class H and 
requires a 7x starting current or Locked Rotor Amperage. During starting the 
power factor can drop to .2 or lower and the inrush can run to 20 times the 
rated run current. Even diesel generators have a very difficult time starting 
singular loads of this size. I would not even attempt such a task.
That said, the solution is to look at the work to be done. If the intent is to 
pump, let's say, 1 gallons in one hour per day, suggest that a solar 
powered DC pump could accomplish the same in the course of a day. DC pumps are 
viable speed and don't have inrush currents.

On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Allan Sindelar 
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote:
Wrenches,
Here's one of the oddest questions I have come across in years:
PRC Commisioner Lyons issued a challenge to NM solar companies today. He stated 
that he cannot get his electric coop to bring three phase into his property to 
run his irrigation (a 150 hp motor). He said that whenever he mentions this to 
a solar outfit - running a 150 hp motor on pv - they look back at him like a 
deer in the headlights. Can you meet his challenge?
This application is way above my pay grade, and normally I would not give this 
question much pause, as few ranchers would be seriously willing to put up the 
money for the design and research time to work up and price a solution, 
especially given that as far as I know, none even exists. No rural water 
pumping PV designer that I know works with motor loads of such scale. Indeed, 
it makes my head spin to think of it.

I checked an older (2003) Franklin motor application guide and found specs for 
a 150 HP 3 phase motor: 128 kilowatts at 380-575 VAC at 60 Hz.

The only reason I am writing is this: The rancher is one of our state's five 
Public Regulatory Commissioners. These are the folks who regulate our three 
private utilities and 20 +/- rural co-ops, and he is perhaps the most 
conservative one of the five. Last fall he initiated an ill-conceived 
regulation to cut in half our state's RPS and pushed it through to passage on 
the PRC; about two months later the ruling was rescinded due to a huge public 
outcry. So if it were even possible to address his particular request, the 
potential consequences could have far-reaching effects politically.

Has anyone attempted or accomplished anything even close to this? Is there 
existing equipment that could handle such an application? Could such an 
application be justified economically? Or can anyone offer a reasoned answer 
why it's not possible?

Thank you,
Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209

Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Nathan,

What is the distance between the buildings, and where are the utility meters 
located?

What are the sizes of the Services? 200A?

Can both buildings be powered from a single Service? Why is the workshop 
metered separately?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 12:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

Hi Wrenches,

I've got an issue that's got me stumped and I was hoping somebody could give me 
some suggestions.

We have a customer who has two meters, one on the house and one on a workshop.  
The workshop is heavily shaded and it's zoned residential so meter aggregation 
isn't a possibility.   The customer is hoping to put two separate PV systems on 
the house one for each meter with the inverters mounted in the garage.  It 
seems like that sets me afoul of the intentions of 230.2 Number of services, 
but if I remote one set of inverters and run DC I'm not quite sure how to think 
through the disconnecting requirements.

Any advice or suggestions on if or how this might be possible?

--
Nathan Charles
Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #042013-20
Paradise Energy Solutions

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Are both services (and meters) on the house? Or is the shop service located on 
the shop building?

Brian

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

The distance between the building is about 100'.

The residential service is a 200A service but the workshop is 400A because of 
large of equipment and can't be combined at this point.


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Brian Teitelbaum 
bteitelb...@aeesolar.commailto:bteitelb...@aeesolar.com wrote:
Nathan,

What is the distance between the buildings, and where are the utility meters 
located?

What are the sizes of the Services? 200A?

Can both buildings be powered from a single Service? Why is the workshop 
metered separately?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 12:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

Hi Wrenches,

I've got an issue that's got me stumped and I was hoping somebody could give me 
some suggestions.

We have a customer who has two meters, one on the house and one on a workshop.  
The workshop is heavily shaded and it's zoned residential so meter aggregation 
isn't a possibility.   The customer is hoping to put two separate PV systems on 
the house one for each meter with the inverters mounted in the garage.  It 
seems like that sets me afoul of the intentions of 230.2 Number of services, 
but if I remote one set of inverters and run DC I'm not quite sure how to think 
through the disconnecting requirements.

Any advice or suggestions on if or how this might be possible?

--
Nathan Charles
Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #042013-20
Paradise Energy Solutions


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--
Nathan Charles
Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #042013-20
Paradise Energy Solutions
(717) 283-2021 direct
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Ah...OK

Looks like you have two options:

Locate the shop's inverter on the house, and run 240 VAC the 100 feet to the 
shop, where it will connect at the shop's service entrance.

Or, locate the inverter at the shop, and run the PV array DC the extra 100 foot 
distance.

Which is better? Electrically, I don't think that it really matters much.

With the inverter on the house, you are adding a 100' of AC wiring, so you need 
to make sure that any voltage drop does not cause the inverter to operate at 
too high an output voltage. If the utility service has already higher than 
normal AC voltage, that could cause the inverter to shut off due to high AC 
voltage. Running that distance as DC would not give you that potential issue. 
You still lose some power due to voltage drop of course (either AC or DC), but 
as long as that doesn't cause the inverter to operate below its MPPT DC voltage 
window, it won't effect it.

In either case, you will need an approved disconnect at each location, in other 
words, on each end of that 100' line. And good signage.

And I would recommend surge/lightning protection on both ends.

However, if you have the shop's inverter on the house, that also means that you 
have an AC connection from the shop's Service present at the house. This is 
where 230.2 may apply. You have two separate buildings with two separate 
Services. 230.2 applies to single, or physically connected, buildings with 
multiple Service entrances. It's about safety, so that fire fighters or other 
emergency personnel can be sure that if they pull a service meter, that they 
are cutting all the power to that structure. If you have an AC connection to 
that other Service, the AHJ may take issue with it under 230.2, even if you 
have a lockable disco,  good signage, and the house meter and shop disco are 
close together. You should consult with your AHJ.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar




From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 2:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

No, the shop service is located on the shop building.

-N

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Brian Teitelbaum 
bteitelb...@aeesolar.commailto:bteitelb...@aeesolar.com wrote:
Are both services (and meters) on the house? Or is the shop service located on 
the shop building?

Brian

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 1:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

The distance between the building is about 100'.

The residential service is a 200A service but the workshop is 400A because of 
large of equipment and can't be combined at this point.


On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 4:03 PM, Brian Teitelbaum 
bteitelb...@aeesolar.commailto:bteitelb...@aeesolar.com wrote:
Nathan,

What is the distance between the buildings, and where are the utility meters 
located?

What are the sizes of the Services? 200A?

Can both buildings be powered from a single Service? Why is the workshop 
metered separately?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Nathan Charles
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 12:05 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Two systems on one building with separate services

Hi Wrenches,

I've got an issue that's got me stumped and I was hoping somebody could give me 
some suggestions.

We have a customer who has two meters, one on the house and one on a workshop.  
The workshop is heavily shaded and it's zoned residential so meter aggregation 
isn't a possibility.   The customer is hoping to put two separate PV systems on 
the house one for each meter with the inverters mounted in the garage.  It 
seems like that sets me afoul of the intentions of 230.2 Number of services, 
but if I remote one set of inverters and run DC I'm not quite sure how to think 
through the disconnecting requirements.

Any advice or suggestions on if or how this might be possible?

--
Nathan Charles
Engineer
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional #042013-20
Paradise Energy Solutions


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Combiner with main breaker as system disconnect

[Brian Teitelbaum]

One big omission, in the otherwise fine Soligent white paper, is that the 60A 
minimum disconnect has to be rated as Service Equipment. Generally this means 
a Heavy-Duty safety switch or Service-rated load center with Main breaker.

I don't see why an AC breaker panel, with a Main breaker, couldn't act as the 
PV system disconnect, as long as it's Service-rated, a minimum of 60A, and the 
utility does not require an external-handle disconnect, lockable in the off 
position. Many utility companies still do.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 2:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Combiner with main breaker as system disconnect

Don't utter the word tap. :)

See:
http://www.soligent.net/documents/HappyLandings_v3.pdf

We usually specify a fusible disconnect for overcurrent protection when 
grouping the PV AC combiner with the main premises disconnect is not practical.


Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar




On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 1:31 PM, 
ke...@renovusenergy.commailto:ke...@renovusenergy.com wrote:
I am trying to determine whether an AC combiner panel (for multiple inverter 
outputs) with main breaker can be also used as the PV system disconnect?

This is for a line tap situation.  I am accustomed to doing these systems with 
an AC combiner, and separate enclosure for a breaker style, line tap over 
current protection.

Any thoughts/comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Battery Disconnects

[Brian Teitelbaum]

William,

Are those the older Sunny Island 4.2 or 5kW units, or the newer 4.5 or 6kW 
units?

Is this single-phase or three phase?

The SMA BATFUSE would work, but it is not available in the US. It's not Code 
compliant nor UL Listed.

You could use the OutBack FW1000-DC, but you are going to have a little fun 
doing the DC cabling and conduit. The older Islands had dual 1/0 battery 
terminals. The newer ones have a single 3/0 terminal. Unfortunately, those 
sizes are hard to find in proper flexible battery/inverter cable, mostly 
because it doesn't sell in enough volume for distributors to carry. It also 
doesn't properly match available DC breaker sizes, like 4/0 and 2/0 cable does.

SMA worked directly with MidNite Solar to develop the MidNite E-Panel system 
for the Sunny Islands. It's what I would recommend using. For one thing, they 
have dealt with the DC cable and fusing size issues (and, no, you are not 
blind). You can run 2/0 (4.2 or 4.5kW units), or 4/0 (5 and 6kW units) to the 
E-Panels

However, I don't know offhand if they work with the older Islands. If you are 
dealing with the older units, you should contact them to confirm that they will 
fit.

If it's three-phase at 208 VAC, I also recommend that you use one of the 
MidNite three-phase Master units (MNE250SMA-3PH-Master) and two slaves. It has 
a three-phase bypass switch and color-coded bus bars for a full three-phase 
system. There isn't a whole lot in there that you won't likely use. The AC 
output on the bypass will just act as an AC main breaker. You can then run that 
to an external load center.

Now, the distance from the battery bank issue is new. These systems have been 
installed for a couple of decades now with up to 12 feet between the battery 
and the first disconnect, breaker, or fuse. Of course, that doesn't make it 
right, or compliant with the 2014 Code. The industry really needs to come up 
with a good solution here. The Wrenches thread over the last few days about 
placing fuses on or near batteries shows that an easy solution is not available 
(or not known), at least not for flooded batteries.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
will...@millersolar.com
Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 5:29 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Battery Disconnects

Friends:

I am reworking an installation with 3 Sunny Island inverters.  The battery 
leads have no disconnecting means or OCP.  I have been looking for sensible 
hardware to provide this and I have found some options.  I am interested in any 
input on these or ideas I have not discovered.


1.   SMA BATFUSE.  I am having trouble deciding which one is right for a 3 
SI install.

a.   The B.003 appears to have fuse positions for the positive and the 
negative leads.  I am fairly darn certain I don't want fuses in the negative 
leads of a negative bonded system, and although this is my first SI install, I 
am pretty sure this is negative bonded.  Am I missing something here?

b.  The B.001 has only positions for two fuses as far as I can see from the 
manual.

c.   So it looks like neither will work for me.  Does anyone have any 
experience and/or wisdom here?

2.   Midnite Solar E-panels:

a.   The regular panel has DC and AC components.  I want to control the AC 
elsewhere so I could order three slave units.  The Midnite unit mounts right 
under the inverter but I would prefer to have the OCP closer to the batteries.

3.   Outback:

a.   We could purchase an Outback FX1000 and install three breakers in it.

4.   Breaker Size:

a.   I have started to read the manual but I have yet to find out what size 
breaker fuse is recommended.  Have I just not found it yet?

b.  Also, I have not found a specification for battery cable size.  Am I 
blind?

Thanks in advance.  I really appreciate the help I receive here.  I try to give 
as well as receive.

William


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Idle Draw

[Brian Teitelbaum]

William,

The flat screen and the satellite receiver are both phantom loads when off, so 
either make sure that they are on a plug strip and switched off when not in 
use, or you will have to increase the battery charging source (PV?). The 
satellite unit may lose its programming when switched off which is a major 
hassle, so your client may not want to put it on a switch.

I'm sure that the idle draw of the new inverter is quite a bit more than the 
old mod-square too.

I'd love to know what type of batteries they are, and what the charging sources 
are.

If they don't have an amp-hour meter in the system, you should talk them into 
letting you install one. Of course, if they get 28+ years out of a set of 
flooded batteries, they must be doing it right, and maybe don't really need it.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 7:56 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heart Interface Idle Draw

Friends:

I have a client with 28 year old batteries.  They are in great shape with 
excellent specific gravity.  I have no idea why they have lasted so long.  We 
recently pulled an old Heart HF series inverter and installed an Outback 
VFX3524 inverter.  Coincidentally the client purchased a new flat screen TV and 
satellite receiver.

The client reports generally lower battery voltages since the install.  I am 
trying to figure out if it is the inverter or the TV.

Does anyone know the idle draw of the HF series inverter?  This information 
would help me troubleshoot this problem.

Thanks in advance.

William



[cid:image001.jpg@01CEF544.73A0C3A0]
17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422
www.millersolar.comhttp://www.millersolar.com/
805-438-5600 voice

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Re: [RE-wrenches] To stack or not to stack? Off-grid 240V

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Alan and all,

FYI, Magnum makes a 24V version of the 120/240VAC inverter, the MS4024PAE.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:25 PM
To: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] To stack or not to stack? Off-grid 240V

Larry,
I didn't mention the MS4448PAE because Hilton had indicated that he was dealing 
with a 24V system and that Magnum model is 48V.

I don't think that the issues I see with lights flickering in my own home are 
related to either load or battery capacity. I have 1400 AH @24V of industrial 
cells in good condition with correct cables and installation, and the load that 
makes the most noticeable flicker is indeed the refrigerator, a small load. Not 
being an electrical engineer, I have assumed that it is related to the 
inverter's slow response to the poor power factor of the refrigerator's 
compressor, coupled with weak filtering in the electronics of some fluorescent 
ballasts.

That said, years ago when the first MS4024 came out, Phil Undercuffler of 
Outback, then still at Conergy, conducted an inverter shootout to test 
surge/capacities of Outback, Magnum, XW, and their older SW5548s using various 
power tools and other large loads. The Magnum impressed us with its ability to 
start loads well beyond expectation, but in doing so it allowed far more 
instantaneous measured voltage drop, to as low as 80 VAC, as I recall. At the 
bottom of this post is an excerpt from his emails of 8/19-20/08 with the 
results of that shootout.

There was one more issue with the Magnum, that I heard about from a customer 
for whom we'd installed an MS4448PAE: he told me that the crystal (?) used by 
Magnum to set frequency is not quite spot-on, such that he needs to reset 
electronic clocks, timers etc. every couple of months. He told me that he 
called Magnum tech support about this and they admitted that this was the case. 
I notice it too with the microwave clock, but am not as bothered by it, I guess 
(the customer is a retired professional mathematician). He told me that while 
he was otherwise quite pleased with the Magnum, had he known about this issue 
he would have rejected the Magnum for that reason alone.
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/
On 10/30/2013 12:19 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
Hilton,

Magnum Energy also has a single 4400 VA model, the MS4448PAE, that operates 
120/240 split phase. It can provide 8500 Watts for 5 seconds and 40 amps (line 
to line) for 100ms. This might start the 3HP motor load assuming it is 240 volt 
induction motor and not a capacitor start. Also assuming no other high loads 
are operating. See if you can find out (letter code on motor) or test for the 
LRA of the motor.

(Allan) Battery voltage dip is proportional to load/battery capacity. I install 
lots of Magnum product but I have not experienced voltage dip with large loads 
starting. Perhaps it was related to waveform and the CFL's. Magnum Energy 
products are designed and built in the uSA and have been the best and most 
reliable inverters that I have experienced so my vote is for Magnum.

Larry


On Oct 30, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Allan Sindelar 
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote:

Hilton,
Kevin's comments are well taken. To add a bit:

Magnum are exceptionally easy to set up and program. The user interface is well 
designed. A few issues to be aware of from my experience:
- All of our Magnum-based off grid systems have been single inverter. At 4 kW, 
a single inverter may not be enough for that particular 3hp motor - best to CYA 
with the customer on the possible need for a stacked pair.
- Magnum allows a pretty wide voltage dip to accomplish surge capacity, so when 
the saw starts, expect lights to flicker. Our CF bulbs flicker when the 
refrigerator starts.

Our trial with Apollo a couple of years ago was probably the single most 
negative experience with an inverter manufacturer of my career. Kevin's comment 
that the most basic programming required hooking up to a computer is accurate. 
The computer must have their proprietary software installed, and the hookup was 
necessary even to initiate an equalize charge from an AC source. We have 
several warranty replacement and takeout units on a shelf here, from two 
installations (including in my own home) where the equipment was replaced after 
being unable to get it to work reliably. Ultimately, Apollo agreed

Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jason,

I used to get parts from Controlled Energy Corp in Vermont, but I haven't 
contacted them in at least 8 years, so I don't know if they still have them for 
the old units.

Brian
AEE Solar
 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2013 8:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH

Hello Brian,

I am running one of these older French models at home as well.  Do you happen 
to have a source for parts?

Thanks,

Jason Lerner
Waldron Power and Light Co.

On Sep 30, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:

 Hi Bill,
 
 I'm still running an Aquastar 125BS (original French model, before Bosch 
 bought them) that I installed in 1990. I've had to rebuild the water valve 
 once (after a freeze up; it's in an unheated outside closet on the north side 
 of my house), the high-temp sensor once, and I needed to replace the 
 thermocouple a few times when I was just using a small propane tank to run 
 it. I installed a 250 gallon propane tank in the late nineties and haven't 
 had to replace the thermocouple since. 
 
 The Aquastar still works great, even when my incoming water temp is near 
 freezing. I just have to use less cold-water mix during the winter.
 
 Are you finding the new Bosch models to be this reliable?
 
 Brian Teitelbaum
 AEE Solar
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill 
 Loesch
 Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 5:00 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH
 
 
 Hi Bill, et al,
 
 There are two major categories of tankless water heaters-natural draft (which 
 work very similar in control aspect to a conventional tank i.e.. 
 no electric required, some form of pilot light) and power vented (all power 
 vented machines have need for at least a fan, most a computer with some form 
 of display included - if your own body is incapable of telling you if the 
 water is sufficiently hot).
 
 Of the Big Five (major players in the tankless market) all manufacture one or 
 more models of power vented tankless. Today, only Bosch markets a natural 
 draft tankless. Bosch offers more than one model of natural draft tankless, 
 standing pilot and intermittent pilot. If you like simple, trouble free, and 
 low life cycle cost, you have but one choice.
 
 
 http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201304181918370.520PN_English_06.201
 1.pdf
 
 What must be properly addressed with _any_ tankless is intake and exhaust 
 venting, gas line sizing, and water quality. Since this isn't a tank, the 
 pilot flame does almost nothing in terms of freeze prevention.
 
 Some manufacturers state flow rate for their heaters without also providing 
 temp rise. Flow rate without temp rise is meaningless. The above is a 117,000 
 BTU/h machine. Sometimes winter ground water temperatures are significantly 
 colder than summertime temps. If you want hot water in the winter, too, make 
 sure you use the appropriate temp rise. Hardness is the biggest issue with 
 water quality, if you scale the heat exchanger you won't get the performance 
 advertised. If you have hard water, a water softener or descaling _as 
 required_ is necessary.
 
 I am a big fan of tankless and have been since '89 when I was first 
 introduced to them as a user. Today, I install and troubleshoot all five 
 major manufacturers. Co-located with the load, tankless provides you not only 
 endless hot water but also instant hot water.
 
 Good luck,
 
 Bill Loesch
 Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
 314 631 1094
 
 
 On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:19 PM, frenergy wrote:
 
 Off-grid Wrenches,
 
I'm working on a load sheet and am having a hard time finding 
 standby and while firing electrical usage for a propane-fired on 
 demand water heater.  Do they some/all have standing pilots, glow 
 bars, something else?  I'm guessing the standby power needs are very 
 low but we all know how even 10-15 watts adds up over 24 hrs when 
 you're off-grid.
 
If any body has some actual numbers rather than just pdf.specs 
 (though manus specs might help some), I would be most grateful.
 Thanks in advance.
 
 Bill
 Feather River Solar Electric
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Bill,

I'm still running an Aquastar 125BS (original French model, before Bosch bought 
them) that I installed in 1990. I've had to rebuild the water valve once (after 
a freeze up; it's in an unheated outside closet on the north side of my house), 
the high-temp sensor once, and I needed to replace the thermocouple a few times 
when I was just using a small propane tank to run it. I installed a 250 gallon 
propane tank in the late nineties and haven't had to replace the thermocouple 
since. 

The Aquastar still works great, even when my incoming water temp is near 
freezing. I just have to use less cold-water mix during the winter.

Are you finding the new Bosch models to be this reliable?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Loesch
Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 5:00 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On demand WH


Hi Bill, et al,

There are two major categories of tankless water heaters-natural draft (which 
work very similar in control aspect to a conventional tank i.e.. 
no electric required, some form of pilot light) and power vented (all power 
vented machines have need for at least a fan, most a computer with some form of 
display included - if your own body is incapable of telling you if the water is 
sufficiently hot).

Of the Big Five (major players in the tankless market) all manufacture one or 
more models of power vented tankless. Today, only Bosch markets a natural draft 
tankless. Bosch offers more than one model of natural draft tankless, standing 
pilot and intermittent pilot. If you like simple, trouble free, and low life 
cycle cost, you have but one choice.

 
http://www.bosch-climate.us/files/201304181918370.520PN_English_06.2011.pdf

What must be properly addressed with _any_ tankless is intake and exhaust 
venting, gas line sizing, and water quality. Since this isn't a tank, the pilot 
flame does almost nothing in terms of freeze prevention.

Some manufacturers state flow rate for their heaters without also providing 
temp rise. Flow rate without temp rise is meaningless. The above is a 117,000 
BTU/h machine. Sometimes winter ground water temperatures are significantly 
colder than summertime temps. If you want hot water in the winter, too, make 
sure you use the appropriate temp rise. Hardness is the biggest issue with 
water quality, if you scale the heat exchanger you won't get the performance 
advertised. If you have hard water, a water softener or descaling _as required_ 
is necessary.

I am a big fan of tankless and have been since '89 when I was first introduced 
to them as a user. Today, I install and troubleshoot all five major 
manufacturers. Co-located with the load, tankless provides you not only endless 
hot water but also instant hot water.

Good luck,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094


On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 10:19 PM, frenergy wrote:

 Off-grid Wrenches,

 I'm working on a load sheet and am having a hard time finding 
 standby and while firing electrical usage for a propane-fired on 
 demand water heater.  Do they some/all have standing pilots, glow 
 bars, something else?  I'm guessing the standby power needs are very 
 low but we all know how even 10-15 watts adds up over 24 hrs when 
 you're off-grid.

 If any body has some actual numbers rather than just pdf.specs 
 (though manus specs might help some), I would be most grateful.
 Thanks in advance.

 Bill
 Feather River Solar Electric

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Utilities see battery bank as parasitic load?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Chris,

Is that the inspector saying that, or the LADWP rep?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Daum
Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 12:41 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Utilities see battery bank as parasitic load?

Hello Wrenches:

Ok, here's one for you.  We have a customer whose utility provider is L.A. 
Dept. of Water  Power; he's getting ready to install his battery-based 
grid-tie system with a Radian inverter, load center, HUB4, eight - 250W 
modulesetc.  But the inspector is calling foul, saying his 'battery bank is 
a parasitic load  --  the inspector also claims that the battery bank is a 
generator so he must utilize a straight grid-tie inverter (5KW Power One) and 
make this an AC coupled system to be legal.

The question then becomes; does the PowerOne GT5kW inverter play nicely with 
the Outback Radian when the Radian is the BB Inverter?

Maybe there is a way to save our customer the cost of the new PowerOne inverter 
if we configure the Radian differently?

Any advice or suggestions that you can offer would be most helpful!   And is 
anyone else running into this?  It just seems crazy.

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
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Re: [RE-wrenches] copper roof

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Nik,

It's hard to tell from the photos, but are you seeing the same issue under the 
bottom edges of the other rows of modules going up the roof slope? From the 
images it looks like this is happening only along the very bottom row.

Is there enough spacing between the rows to allow water to drop through, or 
does all of the water on the array drop off of the bottom row?

I'm not an expert in galvanic corrosion, but it's my understanding that 
aluminum corrodes when in contact with copper, not the other way around. The AL 
is the anode and the CU is the cathode in a galvanic reaction, so the copper 
shouldn't corrode.

My guess is that it has more to do with the simple erosion caused by the 
quantity of water that is falling off that bottom row of modules. It may be 
just wearing off the patina that the copper naturally gets with age. If this is 
so, I suppose that it could eventually wear through the copper.

But that is just a guess.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nik Ponzio, 
Building Energy
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 2:10 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] copper roof

Dear Wrenches,

We installed a PV system on a copper roof several years ago. We used brass 
S5!-U clamps on standing seam and aluminum racking. We are now noticing some 
discoloration at the drip-line below the modules. See photos here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/109634809794570027207/CopperRoof?authuser=0authkey=Gv1sRgCMv8n6rCl8e8Swfeat=directlink

There is also a fair amount of discoloration from bird droppings but that 
doesn't seem to be the cause of the spots under the modules.

Does any know what's happening here, whether to be concerned about corrosion, 
and how to prevent this in the future?



--
Nicholas Ponzio
Building Energy
1570 South Brownell Road
Williston, VT 05495
802-859-3384 ext.15 (office)
802-318-4783 (cell)
http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] C60 setpoint question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Allan,

Do you know what the daily Ah consumption is, or alternatively what the daily 
DOD is on the batteries?

830W of PV on a PWM controller should have a peak amperage of about 48A (830W ÷ 
17Vmp = 48.82A). This is only about a C/18 charge rate, which is fairly low but 
should be workable as long as solar production keeps up with load demand. Of 
course, with old modules you may not see that many amps, especially in hot 
weather.

If they don't have an amp-hour meter installed, that should be an upgrade 
priority. Every off-grid system should have an amp-hour meter, especially a 
rental house.

Without some DOD battery info it's hard to tell exactly what's going on, but I 
think that as long as some energy is consumed each night I don't see any reason 
why you couldn't set the float voltage the same as the bulk/absorption voltage, 
at least in this case. The charging day is limited to hours of sunlight, and as 
long as you stay under the gassing voltage it should be fine. But as Eric 
Benson noted, the battery manufacturer should have the final word.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 1:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] C60 setpoint question

Wrenches,
Eden, our main off grid field tech, came across a situation about which I want 
to ask the group for advice, please.

The system: existing old/funky off grid 12V residential system, done by others 
over many years; this was our first visit. Owner out of state, currently 
rented, owner's complaint is that the old Heart 2800 EMS inverter is shutting 
down at times. Six four year old Concorde SunXtender PVX-3050Ts, so 900 rated 
amp-hours in three strings at 12V. Approximately 830 watts of a hodgepodge of 
older modules, but well below rated output at present, though no obvious 
failures. Trace C60 charge controller. Our assessment after a site visit is 
that the batteries have been chronically undercharged and are showing signs of 
premature sulfation.

With AGM batteries such as these, we have been encouraged (by Midnite tech 
support and others) to set really long absorption times - we have some systems 
with six-hour absorptions. The logic is that theese batteries can tolerate - 
indeed thrive on - staying at absorption voltage of 14.2 - 14.4 V (for 12 V 
nominal) indefinitely, and given the fickle nature of off grid PV charging, 
this maximizes the likelihood of their getting full most days. This logic makes 
total sense to me.

Most modern MPPT charge controllers have a programmable absorption time, and 
some have a done amps (a.k.a. float transition current), to allow them to 
transition to float if the charge current necessary to maintain absorption 
voltage drops below a set threshold (typically 1-3% of battery capacity). The 
C60 has neither, but rather has a nonadjustable two-hour timed absorption. This 
brings the question: is there any good reason that the float voltage on the C60 
should not be set to the same voltage as the bulk/absorption voltage, such that 
they never drop into float? When sufficient input is available to get the 
batteries full, they are just allowed to stay in absorption mode indefinitely, 
slowly getting the energy necessary to reach 100%.

We have installed many Concorde AGM batteries, but never with an old C-series 
controller. This idea seems wacky, but the more I think about it, the more I 
can't see any problem with it. What do the rest of you advise?
Thanks, Allan
--

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc., a Certified B CorporationTM
3209 Richards Lane
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT

[Brian Teitelbaum]

William,

What does the PV array consist of? What size and type, and how many, modules?

Which TriStar? 45 or 60A?

What controller did she have before the upgrade?

The high charging voltage might be a sign of sulfation. Depending on her load 
profile, that 8A charge rate might have caused chronic undercharging. In a 5 
peak sun-hour location, that's only 40Ah/day of charging capacity.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 1:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tri-Star MPPT

Friends:

I have a customer with a new Tristar MPPT controller.  The customer has some 
older L-16 batteries mixed with new and she thinks the controller has damaged 
her batteries.  I am trying to convince her that the batteries were already 
damaged and mixing old with new is a bad idea.

I removed the worst batteries from the array, leaving one string of older 
batteries with reasonable SG readings.  The CC still acts strangely:  When 
programmed to charge the L-16 batteries, the battery voltage shoots up to 30.2 
volts and the batteries boil a lot.  The green light on the controller blinks 
at variable rates, at one moment fast, the next slow, the next solid.

I believe the client started with bad batteries, 6 are 4 years old, 2 are 1 
year old.  She is convinced that the CC damaged her batteries.  She replaced 
panels and CC recently, installing the Tristar.  I believe the old PV system 
charged at such a slow rate (8 amps) that the battery deficiency was not 
apparent.  The higher charging rate has emphasized the problem.

Any one have any thing to add to my theory?

Thanks in advance.

William Miller



[cid:image002.jpg@01CE87A8.28D5F890]
17395 Oak Rd. Atascadero, CA 93422
www.millersolar.comhttp://www.millersolar.com/
805-438-5600 voice*
*Note: above number replaces cell number

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank during peak times

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Southern California Edison (SCE) is now denying applications for 
interconnection and net metering IF the system can charge batteries by using 
grid power. It looks like they are worried about people using time-of-use 
metering in this way.

I think it's completely bogus, not only because of the questionable economics, 
but also because if a lot of people actually do this, it will help the grid, 
and the utility, not hurt it. I don't see how charging batteries is any 
different than running any other load during off-peak.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 10:27 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank during peak times

Hi Jesse,

If I read this correctly your customer is wanting to go off-grid during peak 
hours. I recently went through this same thing with a customer. I received 
feedback from an old SMA tech and some Wrenchers (thread titled Battery 
Back-up and Grid Tie). Here's what I learned:

1. Inverters are more efficient at inverting than charging, anywhere from 
5-10%. Add to that about 10% transmission loss...you'll always have significant 
energy losses associated with trying to put back that power that you're drawing 
out during those peak hours. Energy loss = $$ loss.

2. Compare the utility peak kWh cost against the cost of cycling the battery 
bank. Just for an example, let's say for a 48V system you're using 150Ah 12V 
Trojan AGMs $2000 for 8 batteries. If the specs say those batteries, at 50% 
discharge, get 1000 cycles in their lifetime, that's $2.00 per cycle. 300Ah X 
48V X 50% = 7.2kWh. $2/7.2kWh = $0.28/kWh. Add to that 20% round-trip 
efficiency losses, you're up to $0.33/kWh. What else does daily, unnecessary 
cycling add: Extra maintenance? Shortened life so probably should factor in 
some replacement cost?...

3. Murphy's law says that the power will go out at the end of one of these 
non-essential discharge cycles. Then what?

Probably not worth it.

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest
530-798-3738
- Original Message -
From: Jesse Dahlmailto:dahlso...@gmail.com
To: RE-wrenchesmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 8:50 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery bank during peak times

Hello,

I was contacted by a local co-op about installing a PV system at their office.  
At first they wanted a straight grid-tied system, and after they received the 
bid they changed their minds and now want a battery based system price. What 
they want now is a system that will allow them to draw the battery bank down 
starting at 5pm during their peak demand time. Has anyone worked on or 
installed a system of this type?


Thanks as always!


Jesse

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Allan,

If I can jump in here: using a 60-cell module on a 24V battery is similar to 
using two (in series) of the old 30-cell self-regulating modules that were 
available way back in the 80's. While it was found that those modules were not 
nearly as effective at charging 12V batteries as 36-cell modules (or 33-cell or 
35-cell which were also available at that time), they did in fact charge 
batteries up to full voltage. In fact it was found that they could actually 
overcharge batteries if there were no loads on the system drawing energy from 
the battery bank, so they were not really self-regulating after all, and that 
is the main reason why they were discontinued. They still needed to have a 
charge controller in most systems, so it wasn't cost effective to use 30 cells.

What happens is that as the voltage rises above Vmp, the module will operate 
past the knee in the voltage curve. As the voltage moves higher, the output 
amperage of the module will (rather quickly) decline, until it approaches Voc 
where there is zero current. This was the concept behind the self-regulation 
idea. However, as you point out, the voltage curve of a module will vary 
depending on temperature. A cold 30-cell module might overcharge a 12V battery 
in the winter, but take a lot longer to fully charge a 12V battery in hot 
weather. Even in hot weather though, a 60-cell module should still have a Voc 
above 30V, so some charging will still happen, albeit at a greatly reduced 
current.

This does NOT mean that systems should be designed and installed with single 
60-cell module charging a 24V battery, unless the load is so small relative to 
the module wattage that greatly reduced PV output is acceptable. Two 135W 
36-cell modules (or a single 72-cell module) on a PWM controller would be much 
more charge-effective, at only slightly more cost.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 10:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V charging with 60 cell modules

Eric,
Please explain further, as what you wrote makes no sense to me. Mac didn't 
indicate whether he wanted to charge a flooded battery (~29.2V) or sealed 
(~28.4V). The C-series of PWM controllers has a fixed two-hour absorption, 
which it only counts down once the bulk voltage is reached. If the bulk voltage 
setpoint is above the MPP of the module, as it is in this case, how can it ever 
reach float, as you suggest?

And further, this is spec-sheet calculation. In all but the coldest winter 
weather, the Vmp of the module will be lower still as the module temperature 
rises above 25ºC, and is likely to be even below the float voltage in hot 
weather. And in the winter, if the battery is also cold, it will need a higher 
voltage still to get fully charged.

So I'm with Bob-O on this one. You can't charge a 24V battery with a 20V 
module. Please tell us how I'm wrong.
Thanks, Allan

P.S. - And while I'm on a virtual roll, please tell your engineering folks to 
build a charge controller with a higher voltage input window. I don't mean 600 
volts at $1,500 or whatever it is; just higher than 150V. On a 48V system, 
we're stuck with series strings of three modules if we use the 
lowest-cost-per-watt 60-cell modules. That means that systems have to be 
designed with arrays in ~750-watt increments. Give us another 50-100V or so of 
headroom, so we can design with strings in multiples of 3, 4, or 5. Outback, 
are you listening too? The Midnite Classic does this for us... Thanks.
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/


On 6/4/2013 10:43 AM, 
eric.bent...@schneider-electric.commailto:eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com 
wrote:

Hi Mac,

A PWM charge controller, such as the C35, will work in this application, 
because it will
act like a switch that connects the panel to the battery. While the bulk 
voltage will likely be slightly
higher than Vmp, once the controller transitions to float, which is approx 27V 
for most battery types,
it should allow the module to operate very close to Vmp.
Typically, MPPT controllers require a higher Vmp than the target charge voltage.

Eric Bentsen
_

Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED STATES  |  
 Technical Support Representative
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |
Email: 
eric.bent...@schneider-electric.commailto:eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com 
 |   Site: 
www.schneider-electric.com/solarhttp

Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

There's copper in them thar hills!

You might even be able to buy 1kW of new PV with that.

But is your math wrong? 24 x 80W = 1920W not 960W.

Have you tested these modules? Solarex does not have a great track record. The 
APT PowerCenter puts this back about 20 years, so they aren't exactly young 
modules.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 3:11 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?

I forgot to add to add we have 220' of 4 X 4/0 Thhn running to the house. With 
today's prices I could pull that out and purchase a couple of the Enphase 
inverters


Dana Orzel
Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
d...@solarwork.commailto:d...@solarwork.com  - 
www.solarwork.comhttp://www.solarwork.com
O - 970.626.5253F - 970.626.4140   C - 208.721.7003
Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steven Lawrence
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 3:53 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?

Dana,

Maybe wire 3 in series to a single Enphase?  It'll depend on what the voltages 
are.


Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 14:01:42 -0600
From: Dana d...@solarwork.commailto:d...@solarwork.com
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?
Message-ID: 05f401ce615e$55773960$0065ac20$@com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have a client eat has a 24 - Solarex  SX 80 PV module system that was off
grid, Trace inverter, APT Power panel and an very aged L-16 battery bank.

The utility came in and he wants to go grid tie. It is or was only 960 watt
originally. I realize that an array rewire is in order and it may only be a
1 KW system but he is interested in getting the equipment upgraded.

Has anyone done a grid tie with such a small array and with modules this
old?

Any thoughts on installing sealed batteries and leaving it alone?



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Ray makes a great point. Just the labor that it would take to test the modules 
will greatly reduce their real value to the owner.

If you do leave that array as-is, you should at least take a look to make sure 
the wiring is OK. Bad wiring on a steep hillside could be a severe fire hazard, 
with the array acting as a chimney.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2013 5:30 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?

Depending on the original work, I'd look at sealed batteries and leave it 
alone.  I've done a bunch of rewires, and you're really wasting the customer's 
money to rewire 80 watt modules. ( module J boxes are so 1990s) Meanwhile 
those 80 watt modules have decent resell value for small 12 v systems, as does 
the Trace inverter.
I found that Outbacks take about 480 w-hr/ day so that's  a fair bit of the 
array just to offset that.
Small sealed battery bank, and let him play with a few backup circuits in off 
grid mode might be OK. or offer him a new GT system with a nice trade in 
allowance for the old gear.
I did a rewire recently like this, and we reused the generator 3 way circuit 
selector.  That lets them pick which circuits are on or off the grid.  I'm sure 
others here will have some good ideas I haven't thought of too.


R.Ray Walters

CTO, Solarray, Inc

Nabcep Certified PV Installer,

Licensed Master Electrician

Solar Design Engineer

303 505-8760
On 6/4/2013 3:53 PM, Steven Lawrence wrote:
Dana,

Maybe wire 3 in series to a single Enphase?  It'll depend on what the voltages 
are.


Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 14:01:42 -0600
From: Dana d...@solarwork.commailto:d...@solarwork.com
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Modules for GIT system?
Message-ID: 05f401ce615e$55773960$0065ac20$@com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I have a client eat has a 24 - Solarex  SX 80 PV module system that was off
grid, Trace inverter, APT Power panel and an very aged L-16 battery bank.

The utility came in and he wants to go grid tie. It is or was only 960 watt
originally. I realize that an array rewire is in order and it may only be a
1 KW system but he is interested in getting the equipment upgraded.

Has anyone done a grid tie with such a small array and with modules this
old?

Any thoughts on installing sealed batteries and leaving it alone?








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[RE-wrenches] 1000V PV Wire

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Esteemed Wrenches,

We are having a hard time finding a source of PV Wire with a 1000V rating that 
will fit into a two-hole 1/2 strain relief. It seems that all of the wire 
brands that are double-insulated just have too large of a diameter to get two 
of them though a 1/2 strain relief, needed since most common combiners have 
1/2 knockouts for wire entry. However, we have found a source of 
single-insulated wire that is UL Listed and bears the PV Wire marking.

I've always been under the assumption that double-insulated wire was 
necessary when using transformerless grid-tie inverters, as it is with power 
tools that only have two-prong plugs on them. However I can't find that 
specific language in the Code. It just says must be marked as PV Wire. I also 
found this quote about PV Wire from John Wiles (underlining mine):

The thickness is specified and there may be one or two layers of insulation. 
The insulation must pass an accelerated UV test of 720 hours and will be
marked Sunlight Resistant. PV cable/PV wire also has smoke and 
flame-retardants and may be used inside conduit inside buildings. In the U.S., 
it should
not be called a 'double-insulated cable' as that is a purely European term.

This appears to mean that double-insulation is not required for transformerless 
(non-isolated) inverters; just that it needs to be marked as PV Wire. Can 
anyone here confirm, hopefully with documentation, that actually having 
double-insulation is not required when using non-isolated inverters?

Thanks


Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I don't know for sure, but the S. California installation in the article is 
likely a large Unisolar installation down there.

However, since the article talks about Chinese modules, which are mostly 
crystalline, I don't think thin film is the major problem, if there really is 
one.

Not mentioned in the article is the possibility for micro-fracturing of the 
cells being a major problem, especially since they are sliced so thin these 
days, and generally shipped lying flat, which must cause a lot of flexing 
during transport.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Emerson
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

Hi there,

Hilton's third question is important.

Are we seeing a rise in thin film failure or is this only mono and poly?

Regards
Carl Emerson


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Hilton Dier III
Sent: 30 May 2013 1:09 a.m.
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Defective modules

Greetings wrenches,

I'm sure many of you have seen this article in the New York Times: 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/business/energy-environment/solar-powers-dark-side.html?hp_r=1;

I have already gotten an email from a panicked client asking about canceling 
his project.

First question: Has anybody dealt with defective modules lately, and if so, 
what brands?
Second question: How much does this affect first-tier manufacturers (Trina, 
Suntech, Yingli...) and how much of this is no-name brands?
Third question: Is this restricted to a particular technology such as thin film?

And the big question: How do we deal with this? I can imagine the fossil fuel 
and nuclear industries promoting this story with enthusiasm.

Thanks,

Hilton

--

Hilton Dier III

Renewable Energy Design

Partner, Solar Gain LLC

453 East Hill Rd.

Middlesex, VT 05602
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Re: [RE-wrenches] modules

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Suniva has some limited module production capacity in Georgia, so not all of 
their modules are assembled in Taiwan. You just have to specify that you want 
all US-made modules when you order them.

I don't know if Silicon Energy in Washington State makes their own cells there 
or not, but might be worth contacting. I also don't know if Helios in Milwaukee 
makes their own cells.

REC mines and refines the silicon here, but the cells are made in Singapore. 
Sharp is still making modules here, but the cells are made in Japan.

It is getting to be pretty thin pickings.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Hoffer
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:54 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] modules

Jay
Suniva cells made in Georgia, modules made in China.  Have been qualified ARRA 
compliant...which means nothing of course since anyone signing onto any trade 
agreement with the US is exempt from it, including Tiawan ( that is why most 
cells are made there officially)
Bill

On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:49 PM, jay peltz 
j...@asis.commailto:j...@asis.com wrote:
A question about US made modules.

Who actually makes the cells here in the us?

Only 2 that i know of, Im sure there are more.
Solar world.
First solar

who else?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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--
Bill Hoffer
P.O. Box 1823
White Salmon, WA 98672
suneng...@gmail.commailto:bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW Plus ICM Remote anyone?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Kelly,

The SW Plus used the same remote display as the full SW did. At least that 
makes it less rare.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Larson
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW Plus ICM Remote anyone?

Hello,

I have an off-grid client who is having trouble with his SW Plus display.  
(Second line of display is intermittent).  I never installed SW Plus, and don't 
know the ins and outs of them.  I understand I may be able to plug in a remote, 
(I think called a ICM remote), and be able to reliably get to the settings.  
Anyone know about this problem?  Have a ICM remote for sale?

Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Box 504
Ukiah, CA 95482
707-223-3209
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW Plus ICM Remote anyone?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Kelly,

It was called the SWRC

Brian

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Larson
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW Plus ICM Remote anyone?

Thank you, Brian.  Am I calling what I am looking for by the right name?

Blessings,
Kelly

On May 22, 2013, at 8:24 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Kelly,

The SW Plus used the same remote display as the full SW did. At least that 
makes it less rare.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Larson
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex SW Plus ICM Remote anyone?

Hello,

I have an off-grid client who is having trouble with his SW Plus display.  
(Second line of display is intermittent).  I never installed SW Plus, and don't 
know the ins and outs of them.  I understand I may be able to plug in a remote, 
(I think called a ICM remote), and be able to reliably get to the settings.  
Anyone know about this problem?  Have a ICM remote for sale?

Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Box 504
Ukiah, CA 95482
707-223-3209
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA Electrical Contractor# 868189





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wasps, rats and mice no more

[Brian Teitelbaum]

A bit off the renewable energy topic, but I have found another good way to get 
rid of yellow jacket nests. If you have skunks in the area, just throw a piece 
of fish scrap or juice from canned tuna or sardines near the nest (at night!) 
and within a couple of days the skunks will find the nest and destroy it. They 
love yellow jacket grubs and just have to find the nest. They will dig out the 
nest and chew it up. Problem solved. I've done this several times with good 
results.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Oldham
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 1:44 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wasps, rats and mice no more

this is my gem - Dryer sheets (like Bounce) these hideous things smell 
God-awful to me and it seems many other lifeforms as well. I wear latex gloves 
or use my needle nose to touch them! A mouse, rat, wasp and most anything will 
not get within several feet of these noxious things! I put them in gensets, 
electrical enclosures, tractors, quads, under the hood of vehicles, battery 
boxes, washing machines etc. Anywhere you want the devils away from. They seem 
to last about 3 months. These will save you a fortune in mouse chewed wires and 
manifold nests when under your hood. A customer recently paid a few $100 for a 
new wiring harness in his genset due to mice antics.

If you have issues that call for a spray approach I recently discovered an 
effective safe natural organic insecticide - EcoSmart. This contains only 
essential oils of Rosemary, Clove and Peppermint that naturally contain 
Octopamine that disrupts the central nervous system in invertebrates. You can 
spray it on eatables and consume the same day as these oils are completely 
harmless to mammals. I say safe because it does get to nearly all 
invertebrates like Honey bees and lady bugs for example, use carefully. 
Personally, for these reasons I do not use it around plants. Mostly for ant 
invasions is my use. I found it at Ace Hardware and I see that Home D. carries 
it too.

For in ground yellow jackets (meat bees to some) at night place a clear glass 
bowel over the entry and berm up as short as possible a dirt seal around the 
edge. The hornets will come out and see daylight and do not attempt to dig a 
new way out and the entire nest will dehydrate after 3-5 days in feeble 
attempts to fly to the sky. This time of the year I chase queen yellow jackets 
with one of those fly zapper tennis rackets and put them down before they 
nest. each queen you take out means 15,000-60,000 less hornets in your area! 
The queens are the 1st out in the season for several weeks and are huge, 2-4x 
the size of the workers. Please don't dump chem's into the earth!

OK, I'm on a roll - a little piece of scotch tape on a mosquito bite will 
instantly stop the itch for good (unless you scratched the hell out of it 1st).

-jeff o



From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative 
SOLutions


Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try 
it.http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Wasps

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I'd be weary of using Dawn detergent on PV modules because it has petroleum 
distillates in it. That's why it's so effective at stripping oil off of bird 
feathers after an oil spill.

Safer brand insecticidal soap will kill wasps, and it's non-toxic and 
petroleum-free.

I deal with wasps nesting in my ground mount with just a high-pressure sprayer 
on a garden hose. I have to go out there a few times in the spring to knock 
down the nests, but the wasps eventually get the idea that they aren't wanted. 
Two years ago I had a nest of white-faced hornets build one of their marvelous 
cone-shaped nests on the back of the array, and it was pretty large by the time 
I saw it, so I left them alone. I like hornets because they kill and eat yellow 
jackets, and if you don't bother them, they won't bother you, unlike yellow 
jackets.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Roy Butler
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 3:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wasps

Chris is absolutely right, dish detergent really does work. And Dawn is about 
the best brand to use.



Roy Butler

NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer(r)

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(r)

NYSERDA eligible PV  wind installer

Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC

8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807

607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.comhttp://www.four-winds-energy.com



Join us at the 9th Annual Small Wind Conference

A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers,  Distributors

June 18 and 19, 2013 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin

www.smallwindconference.comhttp://www.smallwindconference.com



Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,

a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 5/6/2013 6:07 PM, Chris Mason wrote:
I have had good success with soapy water - mix dish detergent with water and 
spray it on, won't hurt your modules.

On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Dana Brandt 
d...@ecotechenergy.commailto:d...@ecotechenergy.com wrote:
Thanks for the input everyone. She's pretty set on getting rid of them. I'll 
recommend hosing them down with water at night. I think she's going to want to 
go chemical, though. I'd love to hear anyone's experience with sprays damaging 
the backsheet or not.


Thanks,

Dana

Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.comhttp://www.ecotechenergy.com
d...@ecotechenergy.commailto:d...@ecotechenergy.com
360.318.7646tel:360.318.7646

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Dana Brandt 
d...@ecotechenergy.commailto:d...@ecotechenergy.com wrote:
Hi Wrenches,
I have a client who has developed quite a problem with wasps behind her array. 
Does anyone have experience getting rid of them? I'm afraid of the possibility 
of sprays damaging the backsheet. Is that a legitimate concern?

Thanks,

Dana

Dana Brandt
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
www.ecotechenergy.comhttp://www.ecotechenergy.com
d...@ecotechenergy.commailto:d...@ecotechenergy.com
360.318.7646tel:360.318.7646


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--
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.comhttp://www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase compatibility heads up

[Brian Teitelbaum]

William,

As long as it's a standard 60-cell module, and it likely is (it doesn't show 
up on a Google search though), it will work fine with the M190. Just make sure 
that the Vmp is in the 30-35VDC range, and the temp-corrected Voc is not over 
54VDC.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 4:54 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Enphase compatibility heads up

Colleagues:

I had occasion today to use the Enphase on-line compatibility calculator.  My 
client bought some modules and M190 inverters from an E-bay vendor.  The exact 
module model number was not listed on the compatibility list so I was 
recommended by Enphase to use the calculator.

The result showed the module was compatible only with the M215 inverter.  
Further research revealed that the calculator will never indicate compatibility 
with M190s even if your module is indeed compatible.  The reason I was given 
for this is that since Enphase no longer makes M190s the calculator would not 
recommend them.

This is silly since we still encounter M190s in the field.  Be aware of this 
situation if you ever need to use the calculator.  I informed the customer 
support person of this concern and recommended that this tool be corrected to 
show all compatibilities.  I don't know if they will change this, but I hope so.

By the way does anyone know if the Sharp NU-US235F9 BX modules will work with 
the Enphase M190? It appears so, but I don't want to recommend something that 
does not work.

Thanks,

William




Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GJ series breakers 250A 250vdc

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jeremy,

Yes, both the breaker and the mounting hardware are available.

Please contact me off-list for more info. bteitelbaum at aeesolar dot com

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, Inc.
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:23 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] GJ series breakers 250A 250vdc

Wrenches,
Anyone know if the old DC250 breakers are still available?  I see they are a GJ 
series Heinemann.
Going to be insatalling a 2nd SW for a client. He has the DC250 enclosure, so I 
was hoping to install it there. I guess I would need the mounting clips to hold 
it to the backplate. Wierd since it's a panel mount breaker.

Regards,
Jeremy

All Solar, Inc.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] cleaning battery caps

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I should amend my last post:

If the battery owner does this themself, fine.

If he is going to pay you to do it, he/she is probably better off just buying 
new Water Miser caps.

Brian



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] cleaning battery caps

Jay,

I would first soak them in a water/baking soda solution to neutralize any acid 
trapped inside.

They I would use a bath of a mild detergent (dishwashing detergent is probably 
fine), shaking them through the solution to wash the gunk out. It might take 
several batches of water/detergent solution to get them really clean. The 
friction of the internal balls against each other and the inside of the chamber 
should scrub them well enough.

Then I would soak/swish them through a bath of distilled water, with maybe a 
final flowing rinse of distilled water.

You really want to make sure that no baking soda or detergent residue remains. 
If it does, it will find its way into the cells. Definitely not good.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 5:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] cleaning battery caps

Yea weird.

I've got a client who wants to clean his water miser battery caps, they are 
filled with battery scum

He thinks and seems right to me that they are not working as well as they used 
to, and I dont know what to tell him

Any ideas?

thanks,

jay





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Dave,

137Whrs/day is less than 3Ah/day on a 48V battery. Not really that large a hit 
if the battery bank is not too small, even if you have 10 cloudy days in a row.

Adding more PV will give you more charging power even on a cloudy day. Even if 
you only get 20W out of a 250W module, which would be something like 100 Whrs 
over the course of a cloudy day (most of the insolation is from diffuse light 
on a cloudy day, so you would see that 20W over more hours).  Adding a 250W 
module (if you can add just one) would be cheaper than getting a SunFrost.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Palumbo
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 12:23 PM
To: ho...@catamountsolar.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

Howie,

I usually agree to the Kenmore/Sears recommendation but the closest Sears is 
coming in with is with 18 cu' units that are listed as using 385kWH/yr.
Higher than I'd like. This is for an off grid home and the extra 50 kWh/yr 
translates to 137 Watt hours per day. For this particular home it will mean an 
average of 2.5 hours per day of generator run time during our cloudy snowy 
winter. This is for a small rental house on my property and I want to keep the 
gen run time down as low as possible. Non-winter times will not be a problem as 
the solar array will carry the RF as well as all the other loads in the home.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2013 3:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fridge recommendations?

Dave,

I've always recommended Kenmore (Sears) which we have - they are reliable, 
quiet, and a good price point typically (especially if you get it on sale which 
them seem to have every other week).  If you look for the right model, you 
should be able to get one that comes close to that usage, especially in the 
smaller models.  Sears' website lists the kWh yearly usage last time I looked.

Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric  Hot Water 
Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004


On Wed, January 9, 2013 2:44 pm, Dave Palumbo wrote:
 I'm having difficulty finding a RF in the 16 to 20 cu ft range that 
 uses less than 350kWh/yr. All of the GE units listed by Energy Star as
 300 to 311kWh/yr are no longer being manufactured according to my 
 local appliance dealers.



 I see a Fridgidaire 18.2 cu ft that uses 335kWh/yr (reviews that I see 
 on this unit complained of loud clunky noises).



 Sun Frost units are too pricey for this application.



 Any recommendations?



 Thanks,

 Dave



 David Palumbo

 Independent Power LLC

 462 Solar Way Drive

 Hyde Park, VT 05655

 www.independentpowerllc.com

 Vermont Solar Partner

 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian design limitation - am I missing something?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

MidNite Solar is working on a unit that they are calling the Translator that 
will allow the Classic controllers to communicate with other brands of system 
controllers like the MATE or the XW System Control Panel. I don't know how far 
along in the development process they are, but maybe boB can chime in to let us 
know.

Otherwise I agree with Ray that using a MidNite Classic 200 will allow you to 
use 4 modules in series. The max output amps on the 200 at 48VDC is 76A, so 
that limits you to about 4kW (76A x 52VDC = 3952A), but that will work fine 
with 16 of the 240W modules. You can of course exceed this, but you may see 
some clipping on clear cold days around noon.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 12:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian design limitation - am I missing something?

I second WIlliam's sentiment about having all equipment communicate together, 
but Outback just ain't there.  I know Midnite's stuff will communicate with the 
universal MODBUS language, and is not that silly proprietary stuff that Outback 
does.  I don't see any reason not to use Midnite Classic lites and go to 4  
modules in series.  The customer will also appreciate the computer interface on 
MyMidnite, much more than suffering through the MATE screen.  Let the 
Outbacks sell independently, and I think for 2012, that's as good as it gets.
The idea of AC coupling as  others noted is also a decent option,  but when I 
last looked, it is much more expensive.
Charge controllers are much cheaper per watt than inverters for a 48 vdc 
battery.

Ray Walters


On 12/17/2012 12:15 PM, William Miller wrote:


Sure we'd all like to be able to purchase one system that does everything:  
equipment that communicates between chassis and the outside world


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Re: [RE-wrenches] C-40 question

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Allan,

Just to add to Larry's post, a 100W 12V nominal' module would put out about 
5.9A, assuming that it's really a 100W module and has a Vmp of 17VDC. So 12 of 
them should be about 70-71A. The C-40 is not MPPT, so there is no amperage 
boost.

Luckily, the C-40 is actually rated for a max input of 63A (40A x 1.56 = 
62.4A). Whoever designed that unit really did their homework (I can't say the 
same for the C-60). Assuming less than stellar DYI wiring and installation, as 
Larry suggested, may just have saved that unit from overload. I wonder what the 
wiring looks like at this point, since it's likely that he doesn't have the 
correct overcurrent protection device installed, if he has any OPD at all.

Sometimes, two wrongs do make a right...sort of.

Keeping the system at 12V and adding a second C-40 would be the cheapest 
alternative, but going to 24V would of course be better.

Funny you should mention that 7000W 12V inverter. I just received a spec 
sheet for a 5000W with 10,000W surge 12V inverter (from China) that a 
potential customer wants to get for use in third-world counties. Even at 5000W, 
that's over 400A at 12V, and certainly would be a higher amperage if the 
battery wasn't large enough to keep it's voltage up with a load like that. It's 
also more than 4/0 cable can safely handle. Lots of hokum still out there.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 3:11 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] C-40 question

Allan,

12 100 watt modules are more likely to be about 60-70 amps. With all the losses 
involved in a poorly designed DIY system (like most of them), I would expect to 
see more than 25% power loss. Perhaps that is why the controller lasted.

There is no current limiter in the C series controllers.

Great advice about upping to 24 volt. I can only imagine how many strings of 
batteries they must have at 12 volts. Egads!

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Oct 24, 2012, at 2:45 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
Sometimes I encounter a situation that I have never encountered, simply because 
it's so far beyond normal limits that I would never try it to find out what 
would happen. Here's one.

A did-it-myself customer called me for batteries for his system. I learned he 
has a 12V system, with twelve 100 watt PV modules and a Xantrex C-40 
controller. He has been using this for five years.

Twelve 100W modules is around 80-90 amps - double or more the C-40's capacity. 
Assuming that what he told was accurate, why is the C-40 still working? Is it 
current-limited internally?

By the way, since he had a 7,000 watt (yeah, right) 12V inverter from a truck 
stop, I encouraged him to buy a 24V inverter and rewire everything to 24V; then 
his C-40 would (just) work.

Thanks, Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility inverter rating

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Dave's answer is correct, but can also be fleshed out a bit.

The SI6048 has an internal transfer switch that is rated for only 56A at 
120VAC. All power from the production sources need to go through that relay, at 
least if the two inverters are set up normally where both are connected in the 
critical loads panel. In order to protect that transfer relay from overcurrent 
(load draw in the critical loads panel or high production from the PV array), 
it needs to be protected with a 50A single-pole breaker in the Main panel 
(assuming a breaker with 100% duty rating and that you can't find a 56A 
breaker). That's only 6000W at 120VAC, which would be the max AC output into 
the Main panel. Make sure that you are not overloading the bus in the Main 
panel.

This is off-subject but still relevant:

Since the Island is a 120VAC inverter, and the SB7000 has 240VAC output, there 
will have to be a transformer somewhere in the system: either a step-down 
between the SB and the critical loads panel, or a step-up between the critical 
loads panel and the Sunny Island. Either way, the connection to the Main is at 
120VAC, unless you add a second transformer to step the Island's 120 up to 240, 
or use two Sunny Islands.

If you have a PV array that could max-out the SB7000, you may have a nuisance 
tripping issue with that 50A single-pole breaker. In the installation manual 
for the new SMA Smartformer for the Sunny Island, it only recommends using the 
SB7000 or SB8000 in off-grid use for this very reason. I suggest that the 
system design be revisited to either use a smaller PV inverter, or two Sunny 
Islands. 

I understand that SMA is working on a 240VAC version of the Island inverters, 
and hopefully they will include a transfer relay with a higher current rating.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dave Click
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Utility inverter rating

Erika, I think the takeaway here is that the Island only has that surge power 
capacity on the protected load side- you wouldn't see this surge on the utility 
side. SMA should be able to provide this sort of documentation for you.

On 2012/10/18 9:38, Erika Weliczko wrote:
 Greetings all.

 I recently received this back regarding an interconnection application 
 proposing a Sunny Island 6048 and a SB7000:

 we have to rate the system at the max output of the inverters, and 
 since that battery backup has an inverter that can export 11kW, 
 (albeit for 3 seconds) I have to review the system for a total of 18kW.

 This is a new one on me. I might argue that the SB7000 is upstream of 
 the SI6048 and really the SI6048 is the point of interconnection, so 
 the
 SB7000 is irrelevant. And 3 seconds is not really continuous operation.

 It seems that batteryless inverters show continuous output ratings, 
 though I know there are some that specify a larger than expected OCP 
 for various reasons, but that is not what the utility cares about.

 Any insights here?

 Thanks,

 Erika

 REpower SOLUTIONS

 www.repowersolutions.com

 P: 216.268.2275

 C: 216.402.4458

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff 48Vdc replacement brushes?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Just to add to Allan's wonderfully informative post, if you can find a set of 
carbon-graphite brushes for any electric motor that is larger in width and 
depth (and a proper length) than the ones that you are trying to replace, you 
can easily resize them with a sheet of Emory cloth laying on a flat surface 
(like a sheet of glass) to make them fit the brush holders in the pump motor. 
Just make sure that you take off enough material so that the new brush slides 
easily in and out of the brush holder.

You can get motor brushes in various sizes from any electric motor repair shop, 
or even at auto parts stores. I used to do that all the time when I was still 
repairing motors and generators back in the 80's.

But as Allan said, it's probably not worth fixing. If it has run through a set 
of brushes, it probably has quite a few running hours on it. Who knows what 
will wear out next. Better to replace it with a new helical-rotor pump, like 
the Grundfos SQFlex, the Mono pumps, or one from Lorentz

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 3:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff 48Vdc replacement brushes?

Long gone. Years ago, the Italian manufacturer made some products that weren't 
up to standard, or some such. Cost Dankoff a lot of money to support 
warranties. Dankoff sued the manufacturer in international court and won, but 
never collected anything. That was the end of that relationship, of course.

Usually the ovoid or the flexible gasket goes before the brushes, and they're 
made out of unobtanium. For awhile, Gary Hegg at
Total Light  Power (505) 772-5759 PO Box 646 Pie Town, NM tried to service 
them. I think he eventually gave up, but he might have brushes.

I think I know of one that I installed that's still working after 15 years. Of 
course, the property was vacant for 14 of those years. Tip: it's not worth 
fixing.

Windy doesn't follow this list any more.

Hope this helps!
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/


On 8/15/2012 4:15 PM, SunHarvest wrote:
Customer in need of replacement brushes for a Dankoff SunRise submersible 5226 
48Vdc pump. Part number for brushes is BSH-5000. I keep getting the, Sorry, 
they don't make those anymore response from my suppliers. Anyone have them? 
Windy?

Thanks!

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
A Sustainable Energy Group Partner
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.comhttp://www.harvesthesun.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Standing Seam Clamp for 1 wide seam?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi James,

The SnapNrack Wide Seam Clamp will work with seams up to 0.82 wide. Will that 
work?

The SnapNrack folks say that a 1 seam will fit into the clamp, but the cam 
won't tighten down properly. I don't know if this drawing will make it through 
here, but here goes:

[cid:image002.png@01CD7581.C1ED5580]


If the drawing doesn't show up on this forum, I can send it to you in an email 
off-list.


Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
bteitelb...@aeesolar.commailto:bteitelb...@aeesolar.com



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Reismiller
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:48 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Standing Seam Clamp for 1 wide seam?

Hi Folks,
   Does anyone know of an S-5 or similar non-penetrating metal roofing clamp 
that will attach to a 1 wide standing seam?  We normally use S-5-S, but these 
only accommodate ½ wide seams.

Regards,
James Reismiller
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
Abundant Solar
541-231-8772
CCB#175919
[cid:image003.png@01CD7581.C1ED5580]
www.abundantsolar.comhttp://www.abundantsolar.com/abundantsolar/Home.html

I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope 
we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle 
that.-Thomas Edison

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small battery bank vs too large array

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Drake,

I've been hounding a couple of the charge controller manufactures about this 
issue, but so far I just haven't seen a light bulb go off in their heads, but 
I'll keep trying, and maybe this is a better forum to do it.

MPPT controllers can be adjusted to current limit at amperage values below 
their rating, but if you do that, you are also limiting the output of the array 
in general, and the amount of PV power available to run the loads directly from 
the array (through the inverter). Not the best use of available PV power.

Say you have an 80A controller and a 200AH battery. With current technology, 
you have two choices:

Let the controller operate at 80A. If you have loads to draw off some of the 
current (or sell to the grid), great, but if not you could be seeing a charge 
rate of C/2.5, which would be pretty hard on a sealed 200AH battery, to say the 
least. Granted, the battery voltage would rise pretty quickly, and the 
controller would start to taper off, but it would still see high currents 
especially if the absorption time is set long. Not a happy scenario.

Or, you can set the current limiting on the controller to 20A for a C/10 charge 
rate. But if you had loads drawing 60A, you would be pulling that additional 
40A from the battery and not using the array's full power. Also not a happy 
scenario.

What we need is a controller that can read the signal from a shunt at the 
battery, and use that as the basis of current limiting control.

For example, if we have an array that can produce 80A of current, but we want 
to limit the battery to 20A of charge, there would be 60A of potential current 
there to run loads without drawing on the battery. If there are no loads 
running, the controller should current limit at 20A (reading from a shunt), but 
if loads are turned on, the controller should be able to let more current 
through while still limiting the battery to 20A. When loads are shut off, the 
controller should go back to a 20A limit.

This doesn't all have to happen very quickly as a battery can take a heavier 
charge for a short period of time, but I think that this would be a major 
improvement of controller function.

Of course, if you are grid-tied you can sell all the excess power, but if the 
grid goes down, or you are off-grid?

Because of the low cost of PV and the high cost of batteries these days, I'm 
seeing more and more requests for large arrays with smaller batteries. I also 
think that PV is now cheap enough to allow for oversizing of arrays for better 
battery charging on cloudy days, which can reduce generator run times. We need 
smarter controllers.

What say ye, charge controller gurus?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 2:21 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small battery bank vs too large array

Hello Wrenches,

Where can I get a device that will measure current through a shunt and create a 
signal to trigger a relay?

We want to be able to use a 2 kW array with four, 200 AH sealed batteries on an 
Outback system.  2 kW of PV would be too much amperage for the batteries.  The 
idea is to open relays to disengage strings in conditions of high current to 
the batteries.

The reason for this is to create backup systems where power will be abundantly 
available when the sun shines. The system will normally connect to the grid, 
except during outages.  In normal charging conditions the power will go 
straight to the grid.  When the grid is down, power will be available for loads 
and battery charging, but batteries will be protected from overcharge?

Any suggestions on ways to accomplish this are welcome!

Thanks

Drake


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Autotransformer

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I have pdf copies of the spec sheet and the installation manual for the new SMA 
Smartformer. Anyone interested can contact me off list, and I'll send you a 
copy.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
bteitelb...@aeesolar.com

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeBates
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 6:48 AM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Autotransformer

SMA has told me that they have or will have by June a Smart transformer for 
Sunny Island with efficiency of 98%. I do not see any info for it on the SMA 
site, so you may want to contact SMA/ Sunny Island tech support
good luck,
tom

Tom DeBates
Habi-Tek
524 Summit St.
Geneva,IL. 60134
630-262-8193
fax 630-262-1343


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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Joel,

While Enphase inverters will work in an AC-Coupled system, be aware that 
Enphase does not support the use of their micro-inverters with any battery 
system, and will likely not honor their warranty if their micro-inverters are 
used that way, at least not at this time. I understand that they monitoring 
some battery-based installations for the purpose of gathering information.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 5:07 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

Wrenches,
I have a customer who wants solar modules and Enphase inverters, but he also 
wants PV and battery backup power during a grid outage. Are any wrenches doing 
this? How? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Joel Davidson

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Listed Battery Enclosure?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jeremy,

Sometimes the best enclosure is a locked room. Is it possible in this case to 
wall off the space and provide a locked door with a sign reading Authorized 
Personnel Only on the door?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar, Inc.
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 2:16 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Listed Battery Enclosure?

Wrenches,
I am looking to install some Surrette dual container batteries. 24- 2v cells 
and the inspector is looking for a 'listed' enclosure.
Any takes on this?

Jeremy


All Solar, Inc.
Jeremy and Amy Rodriguez
1463 M St
Penrose, CO 81240
www.asolarelectric.comhttp://www.asolarelectric.com
Phone 719-372-3808
Fax 719-372-3804
Email allso...@scswifi.netmailto:allso...@scswifi.net
Email allso...@live.commailto:allso...@live.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sqd H series disconnects

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Kirk,

Here is the link to the Schneider Square-D white paper on using their HD safety 
switches in photovoltaic circuits:

http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Electrical%20Distribution/Safety%20Switches/Solar%20Disconnect%20Switches/3110DB0401.pdf

Figure 1D shows the common use of these switches with two poles in series to 
get the 600VDC and full amperage ratings. If you use the non-fused version of 
the switches, you only need to multiply the Isc of the array by 125%, so the 
30A switch should work for you (22.64A x 1.25 = 28.3A). If you need to use the 
fused versions, then you will need the 60A switch (22.64A x 1.56 = 35.32A) 
because the fuses and fuse holders are only rated at 80% duty.

By using two poles in series, you are creating two breaks in the circuit which 
substantially raises the current-carrying capacity of each pole, at least as 
far as load-break is concerned.

Also note that using a single pole per string, the non-fused 30A switch is 
rated at 16A Isc per pole. However, the switches are not UL Listed for that 
purpose. They are only Self Certified by Schneider in that configuration. 
That may cause some grief with some inspectors.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 1:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sqd H series disconnects

Hello,

I am combining -4- series strings at the array in a series-fused combiner. The 
sum Isc of the four strings is 22.64 adc. I want to use either a HU361(30 amp) 
or HU362(60 amp) as a disco at the inverter instead of running individual 
strings a long distance from the arrays to the factory-supplied SMA fused 
disco. So the Isc rating for the HU361 Is 11.5 amps per pole, the HU362 is 38 
amps per pole. Although not clear in the SQD datasheet, I think that if two 
poles are series together the DC(non-pv dc) rating is a full 30 amps for the 
HU361, and 60 amps for the 362. But the limiting factor in a PV application is 
the per-pole Isc rating, regardless of putting 2 poles in series (this does not 
increase the Isc rating of the respective disconnect), correct? I'm assuming my 
only choice in this instance is to use the 60 amp disco?

Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner
802.863.1202

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMK Connectors

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Mark,

They connect fine with MC4, but of course, neither SMK nor MC will say so in 
writing. None of the current PV cable connectors are Listed to be used with a 
different brand. In fact, Multi-Contact is adamant that their connectors can't 
be used with any of the MC4 knock-offs.

I understand that there is a multi-company working group trying to come up with 
a set of standards like there is for AC plugs and receptacles. I have no idea 
how long it will take to get something adopted though.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 3:23 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMK Connectors

Hello,
Just now ordering our first modules that have SMK connectors--anyone know if 
these will mate with either MC4 or Tyco?  Frustrating. . .

Best regards,

Mark Dickson,
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer (tm)
Oasis Montana Inc.


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Steve Jefferson
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 3:58 PM
To: glenn.b...@glbcc.commailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC

When the Grid shuts off, the SI sends a signal to the SB's to go into what is 
called Back-up Mode (this is a parameter change in the SB).

When there are no loads and the Batt are full, the SI will ramp the Frequency 
up, thus forcing the power from the SB to drop down to close to zero watts, the 
SB never disconnects fully.
As soon as there is a load, the frequency drops, SB output raises and provides 
power to the protected loads.
The changing of the parameter in the SB, opens the window of the frequency to 
allow for this feature.

It will work with other brand inverters but, they would need to be in off-grid 
mode all the time (which is out of the standard UL settings). If not in 
off-grid mode, other inverters will go into the 5 minute waiting period before 
trying to reconnect, then if the Hz is not back within the UL range, it will 
wait another 5 min.

Thanks

SMA America, LLC
Steve Jefferson
Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family
6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300
Rocklin, CA 95765 - 3714
U.S.A.
Tel:  +1 916 625 0870
Fax: +1 916 624-2445
Service Line +1 877 697 6283 (Toll Free)
Email: steve.jeffer...@sma-america.commailto:steve.jeffer...@sma-america.com
www.SMA-America.comhttp://www.sma-america.com/

This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC 
confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the intended 
recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or any 
attachments thereto) by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the 
intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately and permanently 
delete the original and any copies of this email and any attachments thereto. 
Thank you.

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 6:18 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC

As I understand it, the SI to SB connection works slightly differently than 
described below, and this is borne out by my experience, and a lot of 
re-reading the SMA literature;

Grid goes away - SI shifts to a voltage source for the SB
SI communicates with SB and tells it to operate in off-grid mode, widening its 
voltage window outside of the UL 1741 usual values
Batteries full  no loads, SI shifts the frequency of its micro grid slightly 
and SB will eventually drop off line. This is why it also works with other 
manufacturers inverters because it does not rely on the SMA proprietary data 
comms to make this happen.
SI continues to monitor its loads and the grid and during the night it will 
shift the freq of its micro grid slightly in the opposite direction to 'make 
up' for the period it used this to remove the SB, allowing things like clocks 
that use the 60Hz of the grid to regain time.
SI detects return of grid - communicates with SB and returns it to normal UL 
1741 mode

Glenn Burt

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Brown
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2012 11:13 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC

Jay,

We have installed a number of AC Coupled systems using Sunny Boys and Sunny 
Islands.  One important consideration in this approach is to connect the 
inverters (Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands) together with a communication cable 
and Communication Cards and to upload new software into the Sunny Boys that let 
them know when the grid is down to operate in off grid mode

Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Question re Battery Bank Sizing

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Alan and Larry,

My Franklin Motor book says that a 230VAC single-phase 3HP pump motor has a 
locked rotor amp rating of 83.4A, and a max load' of 3400W. Franklin 
recommends a 40A breaker for this motor.

A single OutBack Radian should start it, but it's close. The Radian spec sheet 
says 100A at 240VAC for 1 ms, and 70.7A for 100 ms. It also states a 16.97 kVA 
100 ms surge

Very iffy, although I think that it will work. You might want to contact 
OutBack about it rather than taking the chance. Or plan on two Radians.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:38 AM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Question re Battery Bank Sizing

Alan,

See if you can find the locked rotor amps (LRA) for this pump. Design to 
provide that much current for starting the pump. My guess is about 7-9kW for a 
3HP.

I'm not a fan of multiple parallel strings but you are correct that parallel 
strings will produce more instantaneous current. However in this case, I don't 
recommend it. Even with other loads it is not likely you will demand more than 
250 amps @ 48Vdc draw on the battery to start the pump. That is not excessive 
for an AGM battery, especially since it is very short duration.

If you need more battery capacity, opt for lower voltage batteries instead of 
paralleling.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103




On Feb 15, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Esteemed fellow Wrenches,
We need to size a battery bank for a GTWB just for starting a well pump. The 
well is on its own meter, so as long as the battery voltage does not crash when 
the pump starts there will be plenty of capacity left over for minimal loads.  
We'll be using sealed batteries, most likely Concorde SunXtenders. According to 
theSunXtender Technical Manual, Concordes can handle up to a C/0.2 charge rate 
(500A for a 100Ah battery), but there is no discussion of maximum discharge 
rates or voltage drop due to large surge loads.

The pump is 3HP and is conventional 3-wire, not soft-start. The well is 940ft. 
and the depth to water is unknown. It pumps into a pressure tank, not open 
discharge. Customers are not interested in replacing the pump, but might be 
talked into adding a soft start Franklin controller, although at this 
preliminary design stage we're not certain one is available for this particular 
model. The inverter would be a Radian, so system voltage is 48V.

I would think that configuration would make a difference, as well as size. 
Using 12V batteries in series/parallel would minimize interconnect and terminal 
resistance. I think that it would also allow multiple paths for discharge 
current, reducing the voltage dip.

What's your best guess at the smallest size battery bank that would reliably 
start this pump, and how would it best be configured?

Thank you,
Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/


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Re: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a higher voltage?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi James,



I second Jay's SNAP-Fan recommendation. They are the highest quality DC fans 
that I've seen. Here's their website:



http://www.snap-fan.com/index.html



You might be able to use those Grainer fans on direct PV, but you will have to 
find out what the fan's motor specs are. Many 12VDC motors can't handle 
voltages above about 15VDC, making them unsuitable for direct PV applications. 
If that is the case, you will have to add batteries (and a charge controller) 
to the system. You will also need to control the fans with a thermostat or 
timer; otherwise the fans will just run constantly until the battery is 
drained. This adds cost and complexity to what could otherwise be a very simple 
set-up.



The motors on the SNAP-Fans are rated up to 40VDC, so they can run PV-direct on 
12V nominal (36-cell) or 24V nominal (72-cell) modules. At 24VDC nominal 
(operating at about 35VDC) they will draw almost three times the amperage 
(meaning 5-6 times the wattage), and develop almost twice the RPM as they do on 
a 12V nominal module (operating at about 17.5VDC). They will also move 2-3 
times the CFM at 24V nominal as they do at 12V nominal.



You can also run the SNAP-Fans with 60-cell modules of course, and that will 
likely be the cheapest way to go. The fans will operate at around 30VDC on a 
typical 60-cell module. I'm not familiar with the ASW modules, but as long as 
they have 72 or fewer cells, you'll be fine with the SNAP-Fans



See the installation manual on the SNAP-Fan website for some great operating 
charts, and how to wire multiple fans in series-parallel arrangements with PV 
(you can wire two 12VDC fans in series and power them at 24V and the fans will 
run at their 12V speed). Unfortunately, the charts only show performance at 
12V, 18V, and 24V, and not at 30 or 35V, but I'll bet the manufacturer has 
those figures too.



Of course, the faster you run the fans, the shorter the brush life will be, so 
take that into consideration.



One more point about running motors PV-direct: the larger the PV array is, the 
more hours per day the motor will run at full speed. A motor that draws 100W, 
powered by a 100W module, will only run at full speed at noon each day. 
However, a 200W module will develop 100W in half the amount of sunlight, so the 
fan will run at full speed for many more hours per day, and even on cloudy 
days. A 100W motor will draw only 100W even with a 1000W PV array, but will run 
at full speed in 10% sunlight (this is a little oversimplified, as a 100W motor 
would barely load down a 1kW PV array, so the motor will operate at a higher 
voltage, drawing more power).



As far as Code compliant hookup, that should be easy...or hard. I doubt that 
any of the DC fans are Listed, so that's a problem right there. Otherwise just 
use good wiring methods and you'll be fine. If you size the wire to 156% of the 
max PV amps, you don't even need overcurrent protection, although you should 
have a PV disconnect. I'd use a MidNite Big Baby box and 150VDC breakers.



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



__


 Hi James





I suggest you use Snap Fans. These are DC fans. And super efficient. They come 
in a few sizes/CFM rates.







Check out Greenwired.net they carry them.



Jay



Peltz Power

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of James Rudolph
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 8:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] best way to connect 12v fans directly to panels with a 
higher voltage?

Dearest Wrenchies,

So here is the situation,  we have a customer with a passively heated kiln for 
drying lumber. Basically it is a greenhouse. There is no supplemental heat, or 
power at the site where it is. When it begins to be heated moisture will be 
driven from the lumber, which needs to be exhausted by fans. We need PV because 
there is no power there, and because we want to be completely solar. Rather 
than set up a charger controller and batteries, along with humidity controls 
for the fans, I thought it would be simplest to get some panels and wire them 
directly to the fans. That way, when the sun is shining and the kiln is being 
heated, the fans will be on to exhaust the moisture, and when the sun is not 
they are off. With that said the customer has alredy bought the 4,12v/18a  fans 
from grainger and has some ASW 240w 37V panels. I was wondering( since my work 
is always grid-tie applications) what would be the best code compliant way to 
hook up all this together.
Many thanks in advance for the help.

Sunny Regards,


James B Rudolph
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Certified Californian Journeyman

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Design temperature/voltage calculations

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Yep. I miss the old version too. It was very useful for evaluating system 
designs.

The new one is much less useful, although likely more accurate. I like that it 
lets you change tilt angle and azimuth. But it's very clunky when trying to see 
alternative designs. I also wish that it automatically brought in the 
location's temp specs when you add a city to the input field.

I'd like to see both of them available on the website.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 7:46 AM
To: ho...@catamountsolar.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Design temperature/voltage calculations

Howie,

Thank you for speaking up.

SMA, please bring back the old string sizing program. Please.

When John Berdner introduced the SunnyBoy and showed us the spreadsheet (I 
got version X3.13 in 2003), it answered all our temperature, voltage and 
power questions. When the string sizing program went on-line, it literally 
changed system design. You could quickly do what-ifs and try different 
inverter, module and strings to meet site and requirements.

Wrenches speak up. Hopefully SMA will do the right thing and put that 
oldie-but-goodie back on-line.

Fröhliche Weihnachten
Joel Davidson


- Original Message - 
From: Howie Michaelson ho...@suncatchervt.com
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:17 PM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SMA Sunny Design temperature/voltage calculations


Apropos to the great discussion about temperature voltage calculations,
has anyone else been frustrated by the removal of output information on
the Sunny Design tool compared to the old on-line string sizing
calculator?  It was very useful to me to have the string sizer show the
temperature voltage calculations for low and high temperature - as far as
I know the only string sizing application that showed this info.

The defunct online sizer allowed me to quickly look at a variety stringing
options, see the impact on voltage, narrow down the possibilities and then
run my own voltage calculations to verify.  Sunny Design makes quickly
scanning various string options not so easy, and it buries the results
behind more obscure output info.  It is quite a sophisticated program, but
I wish they gave a way to see the calculations behind the choices it
makes.  Or am I just missing something?

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric  Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004





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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT inverter

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Jay,

If you use the Aurora 6000, it has two separate MPPT channels, and each channel 
has dual input lugs, so you could have up to four PV strings without any needed 
fusing (two strings per channel).

On the 6000, the max input power per channel is 4kW, so you can't just put two 
strings of 10 modules on one channel (20 x 225W = 4500W), but you could use 
four strings, with, say 16 modules on one channel (two strings of 8 for 3600W ) 
and 14 modules on the other channel (two strings of 7 for 3150W ). The Aurora 
inverters have an adjustable input voltage range that will go all the way down 
to about 90VDC and still power-point track, so strings of 7 are no problem, 
even with regular 60-cell modules. There is some loss of efficiency at the 
lower voltages, but it's minor.

30 of the Sanyo 225's might be a bit high for a 6kW inverter however, so you 
may want to use two smaller Aurora inverters instead of a single 6000. You will 
need to analyze how much clipping you might get at the location, and see if the 
lost wattage is worth the extra cost of using two inverters. Personally, I 
don't think that an array at 6750W on a 6kw inverter will really see all that 
much clipping, unless it's in a cold climate. I doubt that the extra cost of 
using two smaller inverters would be justified.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GT inverter

HI mac,

I like this choice also.

But what is on the market for a TL fused disco?

jay
On Nov 20, 2011, at 1:59 PM, mac Lewis wrote:


I would see if the Aurora 6000 would be a good fit.  I believe it will string 
but it may clip depending on tilt, orientation and anticipated temps.


Mac
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 2:44 PM, jay peltz 
j...@asis.commailto:j...@asis.com wrote:
Hi All,

Anybody have  a favorite string GT inverter for the following.

6700 watts
30 x sanyo 225 watt

no shading
240v output

thanks,

jay

peltz power





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--



Mac Lewis

Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] combiner bus bar for Sunny Tower DC input?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Kirk,

The Sunny Boy inverters also have a pair of lugs for a single conductor pair 
coming in from the array. They are meant to be used if you have an external 
combiner. No bus bars as you describe are needed.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 2:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] combiner bus bar for Sunny Tower DC input?

Hello,

The Sunny Tower has four individual fuse holders on the DC input of each 
inverter. I am combining the array output for each inverter in a combiner box 
before the tower, so there is only a single positive, negative, and gnd going 
to each inverter's DC input. I want to fan this input out to each of the four 
dc fuses via a combiner bus with a single lug and prongs which fit directly 
into each fuseholders' input, ala the Outback combiner bus. Is there something 
similar made for the SunnyTower dc input? I have not been able to talk to SMA 
yet about this. Thanks.

Kirk Herander
VT Solar, LLC
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
NABCEPTM Certified installer Charter Member
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT RE Incentive Program Partner

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Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I once saw a brand new L16 battery that would read the proper voltage (6.3 VDC) 
and had good hydrometer readings, but the voltage would drop to zero when a 
load was applied. We were even able to do a dead short with a piece of #10 wire 
with only a faint spark visible upon connection, and then nothing.

The manufacturer replaced it (after much haggling and the usual “that’s not 
possible”) so I never found out for sure what caused it, but I suspected a 
fracture in one of the internal bus bars. Could be what you are seeing here 
since the voltage change is about 2V.

I second Mark’s suggestion to load test each battery

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
m...@hurshtown.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 4:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem

I would load test each battery individually using a common toaster heating 
element tester.
I'm betting on a bum battery in the string.
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem
From: Ron Young solarea...@solareagle.commailto:solarea...@solareagle.com
Date: Tue, October 11, 2011 3:00 pm
To: RE-wrenches 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Wrenches,
I received some additional info from the customer this morning. They have asked 
me to hold off my visit until they get a few more clues but some of what they 
are telling me doesn't necessarily jive with a sulphated battery. Would 
appreciate comments - here's a quote from their email:

Hi Ron
Still having problems with system.  If the batteries are sulphated would the 
system return to full charge when you remove the load???  Checked our 
hydrometer against another and it is working fine. Batteries are all either in 
the green or on the line between green and blue this morning.  Display showed 
the batteries at 25.2 when we got up this morning. About 10:30 this morning---I 
had just tested all batteries with the hydrometer---the readings dropped to 
23.8.  Retested batteries---they were in the green.   I turned off all 
loadsthe readings returned to 25.2.  I turned on the Sunfrost---readings 
immediately dropped to 23.8.  I turned off the Sunfrost--- readings returned to 
25.2.  I turned on all lights in the house and the readings remained at 25.2.  
I turned the Sunfrost back on and the readings again stayed at 25.2.  The one 
other thing that happened in the meantime is that the sun came out and we 
started buying power from the solar system---.1-.3kw.  This all seems to be 
part of a pattern where as soon as we start buying power---whether from sun, 
wind or gen. the system returns to normal---But we are still suspicious of the 
Sunfrost because of our problems a few months back.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.comhttp://Solareagle.com
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-09, at 11:56 AM, Ron Young wrote:


As always, impressed and gratified by the number of thoughtful replies from 
Wrenches, thank you again! It looks like a hefty EQ is in order. I've 
successfully recovered badly sulphated batteries by putting them through 
multiple charge/EQ/discharge cycles on more than occasion. Will check out that 
Sunfrost as well. My mistake was believing that the hydrometer could tell the 
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth but apparently it takes an amp 
hour meter to keep it honest.

Ron Young
earthRight Products - Solareagle.comhttp://Solareagle.com/
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products

On 2011-10-09, at 11:12 AM, Jonathan Hill wrote:


Ron-
We've seen this issue before,and it is almost always due to badly sulfated 
batteries. I'd try a LONG (8-12 hrs) EQ charge at 32 volts. We've done this 
with Hawkers and fixed the problem. I believe the Surrettes could handle this 
kind of charge, though you might contact Jamie Surrette.

Jonathan Hill, senior system design engineer
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 31st year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.comhttp://www.sierrasolar.com/

Check out our 2 minute video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
Because of the high volume of e-mail to which I respond, please
leave _all_ of the previous messages (unless it's unbearable) in
  your reply so I can better remember your original message.


att6eade.png

On Oct 8, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Ron Young wrote:


Thanks Bob but he has a tubular type hydrometer, not the pointer type. They're 
usually ok but I'll check it against mine when I go there which looks like a 
certainty.

They EQ the batteries on a regular basis as per my instructions (they say) but 
will have

Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison

[Brian Teitelbaum]

boB,

If you build it, it will sell.

I’d love to see a battery distribution box, with separate fusing and 
disconnects, and maybe shunts, for each string, with large bus bars in it and 
enclosed in a corrosion resistant box. Oh…and Listed.

It would need to come in a variety of sizes, like 250A, 500A, 1000A, and also 
maybe able to be daisy-chained for really large systems, like up to 100kW at 
48VDC

Hint..hint…

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 8:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison

On 6/2/2011 6:44 PM, d...@foxfire-energy.commailto:d...@foxfire-energy.com 
wrote:
What I like best about Mark's set up (the retired phone co. dude w/ half a 
hand), is that he can select individual strings at random. he can eq an 
individual string, or top off a few strings and park them. he can even run 
strings of T 105s, or even nicad (individually of course) in the same system as 
L-16s and the like.. he just reprograms the chargers (and logs it). I think he 
got the design from his days in the Navy.

So boB, how about a controller that can be user programed to charge multiple 
battery configurations with a soft switch? i.e. Bank A, Bank B...? and while 
you're at it, maybe a multiple string DC box? Something with a shunt and a 
breaker for each string? A four string set up would be nice.

I could use 2% of your first million.

db


Well, It's not a bad idea !   I'll forward that question off to Robin.
I have ran into several that use separate and independent battery banks
and switch between them.  I'm not sure why they don't just use those L-16 size
2V cells though instead.

But as I mentioned before, I think that a battery balancer device would take
care of  problems with single strings but maybe even parallel strings,
as well as the pesky problem of AGM batteries that like to plump when
you cook 'em !  (I hate when that happens and one battery gets real hot)

Say, maybe a gizmo that goes across each battery (no 2V cells though) to keep 
each
battery in the string at the same voltage.   It would have to be cheap, maybe 
$30.

Great discussion.

boB





Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.comhttp://www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44



 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison
From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.commailto:b...@midnitesolar.com
Date: Thu, June 02, 2011 8:56 pm
To: RE-wrenches 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org



Nobody mentioned this in this thread, but it occurs to me that the answer may 
be made clearer
by looking at the Voc of each battery string after so many Amp-Hours (years) of 
service.

i.e., disconnect the strings' parallel connection and measure the individual 
string voltage after charging them all the best that can be done.

This would be  making the assumption that the batteries themselves were fairly 
equal capacity and voltage at installation time.

And for whatever reasons, connections, temperatures and everything else 
discussed here, the strings degrade differently.

The older and more worn out batteries should have a lower voltage (Voc) than 
the less worn out strings. Thus, the better strings
may be tending to hold up the worse strings by dumping charge into them when 
the whole bank is discharging,
and wasting energy and battery efficiency.

I guess that just large 2V cells are the answer in this case, if at all 
possible.

Thanks for the help on this question !

boB



On 6/2/2011 10:42 AM, Tom Elliot wrote:
Not surprised at all about the phone company guy.  It was a phone company guy 
who read me the riot act that no one in their right minds would ever parallel 
battery banks the way PV off-grid systems did and got me to set up my system 
with separate strings connected independently to buss bars.  The battery 
engineer I talked to years ago at Dynasty not only said the same thing but also 
said keeping strings separate meant individual string distance from the bars 
became irrelevant (given correctly sized wire for each string’s parallel 
connectors).  I had a system with 12 100 amphour strings of paired 12v Dynasty 
AGMs which was rock solid until the day I sold the house.   The last time I 
checked the system before the sale no single battery varied from any other in 
the system by more than 1/10 volt and the majority were still holding identical 
voltages.

From: d...@foxfire-energy.commailto:d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 4:14 PM
To: RE-wrenchesmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison

Good thread. Thanks.
In my experience, it all boils down to the customer. I've seen one temp. set up 
with like 12 strings (for a concert). but they were recharged

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: out of business

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Oh my

This from their news tab:

The time has never been better to make an intelligent investment that keeps 
paying you forever.

Need I say anything to mock this?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: out of business

Fellow (soon to be former) Wrenches;

This is it boys; we're done for!

Ray Walters

 Original Message 

Check this out

http://thepersonalpowerplant.com/

They even show the shadow from the pole across the top module -- and the 
modules on the bottom facing every which way, just in case the sun moves around 
to the north I guess.

We might as well all go home now -- they're going to put us all out of business 
anyway.

Russell Mueller
Positive Energy
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Xantrex 3 XW system bypass

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Wrenches,

Has anyone tried to do a grid-tie AC coupled system with a Trace/Xantrex SW4024 
inverter and a GT inverter? Is the Trace's stepped waveform an issue for the GT 
inverter?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

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Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Modules

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Daryl,

Actually the newer REC PE Series which are now sold weigh in at 39.6lbs, a 
bit lighter than the older AE-US or SCM models.

The PE modules are rated to 75.2lbs/sq.ft. under UL 1703, but 113lbs/sq.ft 
under IEC 61215. They are also rated on the spec sheet at 122mph max wind speed 
with a safety factor of 3 (whatever that means, since I doubt that they would 
handle 366 mph!).

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
penobscotso...@midmaine.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 4:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] REC Modules

Hi John,
   We have many, many REC panels installed, from Maine to Antigua. They
are a heavy panel, but also with a heavy frame, good for snow loading
and high winds. They are similar in efficiency to Evergreen. The 240's
these days weigh in at about 48 pounds each. Beside REC's recall of
2008 panels, which they not only replaced but paid $80 per panel labor
for replacement, we have had zero issues with them. If weight and size
are an issue, you might want to shop around, but if you want a panel
that can take high winds, snow loads, etc. I recommend them.

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified PV installer
Penobscot Solar Design







 Hi module mounters,

It seems I remember a thread or two quite awhile ago about REC Modules.
  I am looking for alternatives to Evergreen black framed modules.
 Looking for pros and cons.  The frame looks lightweight. We will be
 using mostly on top of pole mounts with wind loading. I never stopped
 liking the looks of the Solarex MSX series. I still look out my kitchen
 window at the 10 MSX 60's (1996) on one of my racks.

 John Blittersdorf
 Central Vermont Solar  Wind


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Interfacing an Air 403 wind generator

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Peter,

The AIR units are designed for battery charging, so unless you are installing 
an AC coupled system using Enphase inverters along with a battery-based 
inverter this won't be easy and maybe not possible. If you are planning a 
battery-based inverter in the system, and you use the AIR to charge the battery 
bank on the DC side, the battery-based inverter will need to be a grid-tie 
model, like a Schneider XW or an OutBack GFX (the battery-based inverter does 
not need to be a grid-tie model in a more typical AC coupled system).

Give SWWP a call to see if they have ever tried to grid-tie an AIR 403, AIR-X, 
or AIR Breeze using an Enphase inverter. I don't think that the AIR's 
controller will operate without a battery, but I'm not sure. Maybe an AIR 
Industrial would work as it doesn't have a built-in controller. You would need 
to use a 24V model to get into the DC voltage range of the Enphase.


Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Talmage
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Interfacing an Air 403 wind generator

I have a client with an independent power system who is going utility 
interfaced. We are putting the 24 volt arrays on Ephase inverters. He wants the 
Air 403 to be interfaced as well. Has anyone done this and if so, how ?  Thanks

Peter Talmage, P.E.

Energy and Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Benn,

I have a little experience from about a decade ago. Don't know how useful it 
will be though.

AEE and DC Power used to team up to supply power for a three-day outdoor music 
festival in Mendocino Co, CA in the mid 90's and early 2000's. Music from 5-8PM 
on Friday, and from 11AM-10PM on Sat and Sun.  I don't know how big the crowd 
was  - 5-6000 I would guess.

We would bring a rack-mounted 12kW Exeltech MX inverter set-up (24V and not 
even N+1 redundant) and 5-6kW of PV (a lot of 120W modules). DC Power would 
bring two big tractor-trailer loads of industrial wet-cell batteries (I have no 
idea what the total amp-hours were, but a hell of a lot).

The sound crew would show up each year with a bigger set-up, even though we 
warned them that the power supply was limited. Stage lighting was left on 
generators running biodiesel.

The last year that we did it, the sound guys showed up with a sound system 
rated at 14kW. It drew 6kW just being on with no sound. Not even a hint of buzz 
or hum from the inverter power. The MX is good stuff.

I nervously watched that Exeltech all weekend as the bar graphs on each power 
module stayed in the red over-load range for most of each band's set. When the 
drummers or bass players would go nuts it was all red lights. We were measuring 
up to 600A of current flowing through the four pairs of 4/0 cables coming from 
the batteries, and a good bit of voltage drop as the cables were at least 30' 
long. The inverter was seeing less than 24VDC most of the time. The cooling 
fans on the MX modules would run for 20-30 seconds, and shut off for a minute 
or two and then come on again. This is with temps in the upper 90's, and the 
inverter sitting on the ground under the stage. Even with all this torture, the 
Exeltech never even hiccupped, which was quite impressive. The sound engineer 
was hollering at us that the inverter was clipping off the high notes, but 
neither I, nor the audience ever noticed. All I could do was shrug and tell him 
that he was warned about limited power availability. The music was great.

By the end of the weekend, those batteries were pretty drained, so it's hard to 
actually say that the show was solar powered. Sitting around with a few beers 
afterwards, we all agreed that the ranch owners could install a 2kW grid-tie 
system on a tracker at the concert site and that system would produce all the 
energy needed for the show in a year's time, likely including the energy use 
for the lighting and by the vendors. This would have required that utility 
power be brought to the site, which would have been a rather expensive deal, 
but would have made more sense, and would have made it a more truly 
solar-powered event.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of benn kilburn
Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 3:51 PM
To: Wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] PV powered music festival

Wrenches,
I have been asked about sizing PV systems for a couple different music 
festivals that have been run solely off of generators in the past.  The problem 
i'm having is determining the energy consumption of music/stage (amps, 
speakers, lights, etc...?) loads as well as concession.  The organizers have 
never considered the kwh of electricity used and it has never been metered.  I 
believe the attendance of one festival is expected to be in the range of 5000 
and the other closer to 15000 over the course of a weekend.

Do any of you have any experiences in this area?  How were the loads determined?

No doubt that generator back-up will still be needed, to what extent, will be 
determined.  So what we're looking at would be a temporary off-grid PV system 
with generator back-up...

Any suggestions on how to proceed with this one?

benn

DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
b...@daystarsolar.ca
780-906-7807
HAVE A SUNNY DAY


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 volt Trojan RE series L16 Batteries

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Funny story: we once had a brand new L-16 that came back to us from a customer 
who said that it was bad. We checked the voltage and it was 6.2VDC. We tried to 
run a small 6V motor with it to no avail. Checked the voltage again at 6.2VDC. 
Then we did the unthinkable: we shorted across the terminals with a short piece 
of #10 wire. Only a very faint spark was noticed, and the voltage dropped to 
zero. Took the wire off and read the voltage at 6.2VDC.

Upon calling the manufacturer we got the expected response of that's not 
possible. It took forever to get the manufacturer to replace it.

We never cut it open to take a look, but I suspect that it was a micro-fracture 
in one of the internal buss bars, with enough continuity to provide voltage but 
not enough for current flow. We didn't measure the SG either, but I doubt that 
it was anything other than normal.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O Schultze
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 12:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2 volt Trojan RE series L16 Batteries

Rich,
It sounds like you've got a rotter or two. Given the short age of the pack, 
that's my suspicion. Try checking the individual battery voltages when under 
load and fairly well discharged. I've seen a new battery bank all show good SG 
and individual voltages while resting but one or more batteries tank badly 
under load. Poor manufacturing QC is the cause.
good luck, Bob-O

On Apr 20, 2011, at 12:03 PM, Rich Nicol wrote:


RE Wrenches
My question regards a system (installed by homeowner / friend) where they 
recently upgraded their t105 battery bank to Trojan RE series L16 2 volt cells. 
 The battery bank consists of 6 batteries in series for a 12 volt system.  The 
interconnects are 12 long 4/0 cables with crimped and soldered lugs.  Main 
cables are 6' long 4/0 cables.
The first issue is high terminal temperature during periods of heavy draw (~100 
amps @ 12v when water pump is on).  Due to the issue the owner has been only 
running the water pump when charging the batteries with his generator since the 
transfer switch on the Outback inverter has transferred his household circuits 
from the battery bank to the generator.  Obviously this is an inconvenience. 
Before the end of life on his T105's he had no issues with the 6 volt cells in 
series/parallel using only #2 AWG interconnects.
Most recently he's experienced an issue where the inverter will not come on at 
all and when attempted to come by switching on his main DC breaker  the voltage 
at the batteries sags from 12.5 to ~5V!  This issue is not with the inverter 
since I loaned him a back up Trace DR I keep around as a loaner but it too 
would not come on and voltage sagged as well.  This sag is with no demand since 
it sags immediately when the DC breaker is switched on when connected to the 
inverter even though the inverter has not been switched on.
I stopped by this AM to check out the situation, specific gravity of all cells 
is good, open circuit voltage on each cell is matched at 2.12  volts.  The 
battery bank is only about 4 months old.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Battery specs:
2 volt, Rated Capacity @ 5 Hr rate=909 AH, 20 hr rate = 1110 AH, 100 hr rate = 
1235.

Thanks for your help!
Rich



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Mark,

Are both buildings being fed from the same utility transformer?

I thank that may be a key question here

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:42 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof

Thanks Ken,

I appreciate the information. But I am still not feeling very confident about 
this.

Yes, you can run a feeder with a EGC from one building with a service to an 
outbuilding and bond that EGC to a GE at the outbuilding, assuming that there 
is no service at that out building. If there is, then it is not an outbuilding?

My whole question boils down to that question: Is it OK to connect together the 
grounding systems of two seperate dwellings where each has it's own services? 
It is clear to me that I can't rely on the allowance for bonding of multiple 
seperately derived systems in this case because each building has it's own 
service and therefore cannot be considered as a seperately derived system. So 
where does the Code speak to this.

My sense is that it is a big no-no, but can exactly explain why.

Anyone else out there agree or disagree?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof
Mark,

Separately derived is defined in article 100. Basically, a separately derived 
system has no common conductors other than possibly equipment ground.

By the definition in article 100 the feeder from the house may be a separately 
derived system at the shop. It may not be if the house and shop are feed off of 
the same transformer because the two systems would both have a neutral 
connection at the transformer.

The ac output of a grid interactive inverter with no batteries cannot be a 
separately derived system because it connects to conductors on the premises.

There must be an equipment ground with the inverter output wires (feeder 
between house and shop). And the equipment ground needs to connect to the 
grounding system at both buildings. That does make a connection between the two 
grounding systems - just as happens whenever a feeder is run from a house to an 
outbuilding.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I don't know, Mark, but it seems to me that it might be an issue.

If you have two buildings, each with their own service, and connected to a 
single T-former on a pole, I would think that you would create a ground loop if 
you connected the grounds on the two services together. They would be connected 
together at the T-former (through the common neutral), and also at the 
grounding electrodes, creating a loop.

Since the neutrals are pulled from the T-formers, I would think that if you had 
two separate transformers, the neutrals, and hence the grounds, would be 
isolated from each other, and this wouldn't be a problem.

I'm I off-base here? What think you, esteemed wrenches?

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 1:09 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof

I have not yet visited the site to see, but I would guess that they are feed 
from the same transformer.

If they were, how would that make it OK?

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Brian Teitelbaum
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:54 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Buildings, Two Services, One Roof
Mark,

Are both buildings being fed from the same utility transformer?

I thank that may be a key question here

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
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Re: [RE-wrenches] solar thermal/electric

[Brian Teitelbaum]

I don't see it there either. You may have to call them

Vaporware??

Brian T



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] solar thermal/electric

Hi Brian,

thanks, I couldn't find anything at this link?

j

On Apr 14, 2011, at 8:39 AM, Brian Mehalic wrote:


Hey Jay,
Think it might be the Schuco MPE/MP 02 model:

http://www.schueco.com/web/us/commercial/solarstrom_und_waerme/products/photovoltaic_systems/pv_modules/Schueco_MPE_modules_in_the_MP02_series

Brian
On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:35 AM, jay peltz 
j...@asis.commailto:j...@asis.com wrote:
HI All,

I saw a company, german if memory serves, that makes solar electric modules and
solar thermal panels that are the same size and shape.

I have a client that really wants them to integrate.

Anybody know which company this is or maybe there are many?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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--

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm) R031508-59
PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor
Solar Energy International
Carbondale, CO 81623
http://www.solarenergy.orghttp://www.solarenergy.org/

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Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Wouldn't a fault in that conductor between the main and the sub have a 
potential for up to 160A of current? I would think that at noon on a sunny day, 
the inverter system could produce 80A from one direction (albeit really only 
the max amperage outputs of the inverters) and 80A of grid current from the 
main into a partial fault.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:49 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter 
outputs

Al,

I would say that yes the meter is a load and this goes to show the relative 
inadequacy of the vocabulary we are using in the discussion. In the example we 
have been using with the 80A breaker, wire and sub panel, you could have up to 
80A of loads installed in the sub and still not create an over current 
condition in any of that equipment.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Al Frishman
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:00 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter 
outputs
Is a monitoring system installed in the Load Center to measure the cumulative 
kWh's of the inverter's considered a load?
The type of monitoring device I am talking about has CT's that go around the 
conductors and the Voltage ref is taken by attaching conductors to each phase, 
the Neutral and the ground bar.The digital Meter has a 3-pole 5A breaker in 
it so the conductors in the load center can be connected to lugs on the bus bar 
directly.

Al Frishman
AeonSolar
(917) 699-6641 - cell
(888) 460-2867
www.aeonsolar.comhttp://www.aeonsolar.com/


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:18 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter 
outputs

Another key is to remember that this discussion also applies to the conductor 
between the main panel and subpanel. In a large PV system, this could result in 
a pretty large wire between the two panels, and a significant cost that is 
often overlooked. In some cases it makes sense to locate the subpanel close to 
the main panel and run multiple sets of smaller wires from the inverters to the 
subpanel.

And because the calculation is based on the first OC protection connected to 
the inverters, adding a main breaker (theoretically 80A in this example) in the 
subpanel doesn't change things. Even though this wire would be theoretically 
protected by an 80A breaker at each end, you can't size the wire for 160A / 1.2 
= 133.3A. You have to size for 180A/1.2 = 150A. (not that it makes much of a 
difference in this example, but it still must be considered)

At least that's how I understand it...

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:33 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter 
outputs

Opps!

My bad, I was thinking of a single phase system, not the three phase system 
shown in the article.

For the three phase system Kent is correct in counting 180A of supply per bar.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:17 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter 
outputs
I think Kent and I agree. For the case where the subpanel is not dedicated a PV 
sub-panel he is calculating for 2 - 50A breakers and I calculated for 3 - 50A 
breakers.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multiple inverter 
outputs
Per 705.12(D) the sub-panel could be any distribution equipment on the 
premises. So the question becomes: is the sub-panel capable of supplying branch 
circuits or feeder loads? If yes, then the sum of the breakers (potentially) 
feeding the bus is 180 amps so

Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Nick,

I'm in that building. The system uses Sharp 185W (72-cell) modules, mounted on 
the roof. Even though it's a three-story building, it's not tall enough to 
catch any sun in mid-day because of three tall redwood trees in front of the 
building. The shading is not a problem for most of the year, but it sure is in 
January. We don't want to cut the treesthis is Redway CA, after all, so the 
Reds have their way.

The SolarEdge equipment was just installed about a month or so ago, so we don't 
have year-round data yet. The PV array was previously connected to a variety of 
inverters, including an OutBack PS1, and even an old Beacon M5.  I'm sure that 
the SolarEdge stuff will provide more output...when we actually get the sun on 
the array.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 4:29 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge

I was looking at the public systems on the Solar Edge site, but did not know 
which system was yours, Pekka.  However, I noticed that the system labelled 
AEE-Solar seemed to have an issue.  The production data for each day shows a 
huge drop in power during the middle of the day, which comes back up later in 
the afternoon.  That is not the kind of production that I would be looking for. 
 Can anyone explain what is happening to there?

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037



From: Pekka Laine pe...@photonsolarpower.com
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 11:32:42 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge

Hello everyone,

I have installed four SolarEdge systems so far and am happy share my 
experiences  My first installation is available for public monitoring via 
monitoring.solaredge.comhttp://monitoring.solaredge.com.  It consists of 26 
Aleo s_1.8 225W modules, 26 PowerBoxes installed on Unirac solarmount rail and 
SolarEdge 5000US inverter. It was commissioned on June 6,2010 and has produced 
6.3 MWh of total energy.

Pros:
Module level monitoring
Centralized inverter
Safety voltage for servicing the system
Free internet monitoring  iPhone application

Cons:
Additional wire management and zip-tieing to the racking system
Homerun is DC so it needs to be inside conduit (vs. Enphase)

Tip: Remember to write down your serial numbers for PowerBoxes before 
installing the modules.

I am happy to answer any other questions as well.

Best regards,

Pekka Laine

President
Photon Solar Power Inc.
www.PhotonSolarPower.comhttp://www.PhotonSolarPower.com
Cell. 760-556-8170
Toll Free 888-SUN-ACDC
Lic. #933648



Hello,
Can anyone speak to real-life pros and/or cons of Solaredge module MPPT
products and performance? Thanks.

Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Positive-ground question re Sunpower

[Brian Teitelbaum]

boB,

There is a chart in that white paper that graphs the losses on each module in 
the string. No significant losses seem to occur until you get to 5 in series

I can send the whole paper to you, or anyone, off list if you are interested

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar
bteitelb...@aeesolar.com

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of boB Gudgel
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 5:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Positive-ground question re Sunpower

On 11/20/2010 4:36 PM, Mark Frye wrote:
From the 2006 white paper:

Polarization

Incorrect grounding of SunPower modules can induce a surface charge which would 
lower the energy production. Previously SunPower has announced the

discovery of the surface polarization effect which creates

a non-destructive and reversible accumulation of static

charge on the surface of high-efficiency solar cells such as

SunPower's A-300 cells [9]. When the cells have a high

positive voltage with respect to ground,

How high though ??  I would think that there might be some
curve that might show how high of V produces  how much degradation ?

I assume that the lower voltage modules in the string work better ??

Maybe it's the other way around and the high voltage modules work better
when in a positive grounded system ?



a negative static

charge is built up on the surface of the cell due to current

leakage through the glass and the highly insulating front

surface anti-reflection coating of the cell.

I bet (or hope) that they fix this some day by changing the composition of
the glass, slightly, maybe.

Nobody seems to talk about this except for this one paper that we see.

boB



This negative

static charge causes increased surface recombination and

the performance of the module is reduced. If the polarity

is reversed and the cells are highly negative with respect

to ground, the negative static charge is replaced by a

positive static charge which restores the module

performance.

Mark Frye
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
303 Redbud Way
Nevada City,  CA 95959
(530) 401-8024
www.berkeleysolar.comhttp://www.berkeleysolar.com/



From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 4:30 PM
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com; 
RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Positive-ground question re Sunpower
Hi Allan,

I have seen the white paper from Sunpower, ( but don't have a copy) that shows 
the losses as the voltage rises if using neg ground.

But from memory, if using at low voltages such as two in series there should be 
minimal if any loss of watts.
If you could use them as singles, for say a 12v system then there is no loss.

Jay

Peltz power





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace/Xantrex info

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Here's a link Allen:

http://www.schneider-electric.com/sites/corporate/en/products-services/renewable-energies/products-offer/range-presentation.page?c_filepath=/templatedata/Offer_Presentation/3_Range_Datasheet/data/en/shared/renewable_energies/xantrex_xw.xml#

The manuals are under tech publications, in the right sidebar

Google is our friend.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 9:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Trace/Xantrex info

Wrenches,
Xantrex' website now appears to include only products related to their 
RV/mobile line, with Heart 458s and similar products. Their document depot 
includes only manuals related to discontinued items in these markets. While I 
have most inverter manuals etc. already downloaded as pdfs, I have often sent 
web links to customers seeking information and product manuals for Trace (and 
some Xantrex) products in their Document Depot.

Can anyone provide a URL for these needs? Is there a web page for the SW 
owner's manual, or the C40's? Where's XW support? Has Schneider dropped even 
documentation support, along with extreme price hikes on service parts?
Thank you,
Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.commailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.comhttp://www.positiveenergysolar.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Holt,

The S-460-AGM is too new for any meaningful feedback to be generated. I guess 
we will know in 5 years or so. This is always a problem with new battery 
designs.

It is interesting though that Rolls/Surrette does not list that battery in 
their Renewable Energy Products line. Next time I get a chance, I'll talk to 
them about that. They don't publish any cycle life info, so I wonder if they 
have limited cycle life. That's fine for back-up systems, but not for off-grid.

The GNB's are expensive, but very heavy duty. We just recently had a price 
reduction from them so have your salesperson give you a quote. For Pricing, 
contact Megan West at mw...@aeesolar.commailto:mw...@aeesolar.com, or at ext 
4841

Brian T
AEE Solar


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
hol...@sbcglobal.net
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 9:29 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Surrette AGM's

Getting a few survival mode system requests...and of course they want no 
maintenance battery bank.I have to smile when I see them flop around on 
the floor when I show them the GNB Absolyte pricing..Surrette's ain't that 
much cheaper (about $2000 in this case) any one out there spec'd the 
S-460-AGM that can give me some feedback?...looking for GNB- like performance 
(1200 cycles @ 80%dod tested) for just a bit less money (or am I just imagining 
those are oinking noises coming from above?)

Holt E. Kelly
Holtek Fireplace  Solar Products
500 Jewell Dr.
Waco TX. 76712
254-751-9111
www.holteksolar.comhttp://www.holteksolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 48v small controllers

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Hi Jay,

The C-40 is probably your cheapest bet, although not sealed.

Or...maybe use three Evergreen ES-A 215W modules in series without a 
controller? Vmp would be 55.2V at STC, but maybe still too risky as the Voc 
would be over 68V at STC. Depends on how much the cart gets used, and the 
number of hours needed each day to get to full charge.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of j...@asis.com
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 5:23 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 48v small controllers

HI All,

Any recommendations on a small 7-10 amp 48v controller, preferably sealed.
its for a 48v golf cart.

Thanks,

jay

peltz power


This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


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