Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount
We use Unirac ULA. Good quality. We have winter use only systems in Mexico so we set the arrays high for best production in January. You should have no problem with 45°. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 23, 2012, at 12:21 AM, William Miller wrote: Friends: I am curious about what the rest of you are using for off-grid ground mount racks. We need a tilt angle of 45 degrees. Thanks in advance. William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cracked Glass...Warranty?
In my business I see quite a few broken modules each year. As I recall, in every instance there is a visible point where the impact occurred. Typically a small radial pattern is around the impact point but then random patterns over the rest on the module. Look close. Hope this helps. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 13, 2012, at 12:21 PM, benn kilburn wrote: Wrenches, I recently inspected a system I installed in 2010, because the owner commented that it appeared the frost wasn't melting off of one particular module as it was from the others. Turns out the module glass is shattered. There are no obvious (that i can see) impact points, leading to the question... Why did the glass shatter? I don't want to just assume, but if there is no sign of impact, I'm wondering if this could be a warranty issue? Frame expansion/contraction due to temperature swing maybe? Any experiences, thoughts or advice? Module is a Sanyo HIT N215A01 Thanks, benn kilburn Construction Electrician (NOC7241) Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 HAVE A SUNNY DAY ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Need info resource re wind & hail damage
William, sounds like you have been hiding in my showroom. We see this weekly and it is definitely not good to get in the middle. Just offer the facts, plainly presented. Alan, If anecdotal stories will help, I personally had my PV system survive a 12 minute hail storm with up to 2.5 inch sizes. My modules were facing the the hail direction. The PV survived unscathed but the house had $23,000 in damage. We also have had RV customers tell of windshield smashing stones with no harm to the PV modules. Good luck! Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Mar 8, 2012, at 10:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Allan: I have some resources for you right here: don't get involved in marital disputes. Consider this: They, collectively, either want PV or they don't. Until they agree they want solar, you are wasting your time siding with one against the other. All of the evidence in the world will not change a mind that is not willing to change. Good luck. William Miller At 08:13 PM 3/8/2012, you wrote: > Fellow Wrenches, > We have an engineer-type whose wife wants badly to do a PV system, but he > puts up barriers. In her words: > Well, I don't know how long ago it was, surely old technology by now, but > some experimental solar panels at Sandia Labs were shattered by hail and it > caused a big controversy. My husband says it turned him off solar.It comes > up every time I talk to him. Either he is complaining about the wind or the > hail or whatever. > > I get to respond to this, and am seeking specific assistance: Can anyone send > me a link to any formal standards, or reports of aggregated field > experiences, indicating that wind and hail (not to leave out "whatever") are > not issues of concern when PV modules are installed correctly? Anything that > came from Sandia Labs would be ideal, but it just has to be reputable enough > to satisfy a grouchy retired national lab engineer. Web links, reports, > product warranties, etc. - all good. > > Thank you in advance. > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > al...@positiveenergysolar.com > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Positive Energy, Inc. > 3201 Calle Marie > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > 505 424-1112 > www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera warranty warning
Wrenches, Kyocera has contacted us and reversed their decision. My correspondence with them still leaves one wondering when they will no longer take care of this massive manufacturing failure. The reply from them was, "...we will handle warranties per the warranty that applies at that time." Since these failures are clearly a manufacturers defect, the 1 year warranty has long expired. I requested a clarification as to the oblique response but have not sent a reply. We had two more defective 120's come in today and called to see if they will take care of these. We were told that these should be covered by Kyocera. Without a concrete answer, one can only hope. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:54 PM, Tom Duffy wrote: This is why we quit selling Kyocera… all the same failures and… a lot of crap around the warranty Kind regards Tom Duffy From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:36 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera warranty warning The letter from Kyocera states that it was declined due to the age of the module. The customer had two identical age modules, both bough on the same day. Both failed. One was replaced by Kyocera on Jan. 7, 2011. The other one failed in October, 2011 and we applied for warranty replacement on Dec. 26, 2011 when the customer arrived in Yuma. I can understand a limited warranty under normal circumstances but this is abnormal since tens of thousands of these Kyocera120's have failed due to a manufacturing flaw and more are failing every day. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 28, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: What was their reason for refusal? --- Original Message --- On 2/28/2012 11:29 PM Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Wrenches, Kyocera has refused to warranty one of their defective solar modules. Until today, they were replacing their defective 120 watt and 80 watt solar modules made in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002, with remanufactured units. The PV modules manufactured during the dates listed are failing in very large numbers. A poorly soldered connection will open reducing the Voc to about 10 volts. We have exchanged many of these modules without any problems. Today they have declined to replace a 120 even though it was their faulty manufacturing that caused the problem. A SAD day indeed. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera warranty warning
The letter from Kyocera states that it was declined due to the age of the module. The customer had two identical age modules, both bough on the same day. Both failed. One was replaced by Kyocera on Jan. 7, 2011. The other one failed in October, 2011 and we applied for warranty replacement on Dec. 26, 2011 when the customer arrived in Yuma. I can understand a limited warranty under normal circumstances but this is abnormal since tens of thousands of these Kyocera120's have failed due to a manufacturing flaw and more are failing every day. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 28, 2012, at 7:22 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote: What was their reason for refusal? --- Original Message --- On 2/28/2012 11:29 PM Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Wrenches, Kyocera has refused to warranty one of their defective solar modules. Until today, they were replacing their defective 120 watt and 80 watt solar modules made in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002, with remanufactured units. The PV modules manufactured during the dates listed are failing in very large numbers. A poorly soldered connection will open reducing the Voc to about 10 volts. We have exchanged many of these modules without any problems. Today they have declined to replace a 120 even though it was their faulty manufacturing that caused the problem. A SAD day indeed. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Kyocera warranty warning
Wrenches, Kyocera has refused to warranty one of their defective solar modules. Until today, they were replacing their defective 120 watt and 80 watt solar modules made in 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002, with remanufactured units. The PV modules manufactured during the dates listed are failing in very large numbers. A poorly soldered connection will open reducing the Voc to about 10 volts. We have exchanged many of these modules without any problems. Today they have declined to replace a 120 even though it was their faulty manufacturing that caused the problem. A SAD day indeed. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Gen start
I must second the recommendation for the Magnum Energy AGS-S. Excellent product, great customer support. Works with most simple 3-wire generator controls. We also sell the Atkinson Electronics GSCM module for more advanced or custom control. The GSCM can be setup for any generator and has many programable features. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 27, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar] wrote: After the OB AGS starts the Genny, check the last page of the AGS menu for the status / event code. The Mate manual has a table of codes for why it started. Also, Magnum has a neat stand alone AGS that I have used with great success. Thank you, Maverick Maverick Brown BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® President & CEO Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc. Office: 512-919-4493 Cell:512-460-9825 Sent from an iPhone. On Feb 26, 2012, at 2:02 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: > Hi all, > I have a customer I picked up in Culebra that has a previously > installed PV system. His Outback AGS programming is wacky, with the gen > starting and running whenever it feels like it and with no rhyme nor > reason. I have defaulted and reprogrammed many times with the same > results. While I know it is likely an outdated s/w version, I would > really like to find something that is more foolproof > Is there a quality, reliable, simple to program and reprogram AGS out > there. Something that I can set a start voltage and stop voltage and be > done with it. His system now works beautifully except for the AGS and I > would like to remedy this quickly. > > Thanks for suggestions. > Daryl > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding acid to a battery
Hi Ron, In this case you may need to but ONLY if you are sure the battery has been equalized to bring up the low cell. If the SG is rising during equalization, keep going. From your statement "over time", it may just be that this cell has been neglected. The method would be to add electrolyte instead of water when the level gets low. With the battery fully charged (important), add a small amount and mix well with a bulb type battery filler. Test the SG. Repeat until you are getting the result. Equalize and test again. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 24, 2012, at 1:05 PM, Ron Young wrote: A client purchased a set of batteries (not from me) and purchased BOS from me. The batteries are a double walled type and it appears that one must have fallen over during shipment or was improperly filled at the factory and some of the electrolyte leaked into the space between inner and outer wall. The only solution was to remove the inner battery cells and dump the acid from the case. A small amount (about a quart) of acid was replaced (1.26 s.g. automotive battery acid) and then topped up with distilled water. The battery performs fine but one cell appears to have a lower overall s.g. than the rest (1.45 vs. 1.65) . This has shown up over time. Question: has anyone added acid to a battery to raise the s.g. Is this an acceptable option or totally off the wall. These batteries still appear to have full capacity and to replace the single problem battery will be very expensive. Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde AGMs
I have not seen anything that excessive. The picture I sent is as bad as I have seen. BTW, it was mounted horizontal. If this is only happening to one battery in a bank, measure the current into that battery and compare with others. High current to one in a group may indicate a failed battery. Thermal runaway could be next. Larry On Feb 23, 2012, at 12:23 PM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote: FYI, I am talking about a sealed AGM battery leaking acid and corroding terminals, especially from the negative post, in either a vertical or horizontal arrangement. When mounted in the horizontal, acid leaks out onto to shelf surface. Not much, mind you, but enough to corrode terminals and make a mess... For an AGM battery, I think too much. Thank you, Maverick ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde AGMs
Hi Mark, Were you referring to the Concorde or have you seen this issue with the Surrette AGM? Surrette AGM's look to be made by Fullriver which we sell so I'd like to know your experience or any issues with them. Thanks, Larry On Feb 23, 2012, at 10:07 AM, Mark Dickson wrote: I was told by Surrette to use Black RTV sealant. Best regards, Mark Dickson, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™ Oasis Montana Inc. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 9:55 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde AGMs Hey Maverick, I have seen this several times in Lifeline and Sun Xtender, both made by Concorde, especially when installed on their side. It appears that terminal corrosion starts just under the case covering the terminal connection inside the battery. Not much you can do. The attached picture shows an example of the case splitting open on a GPL-8DL due to this type of failure. The battery is 9 years old and still has 70% capacity. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde AGMs
Hey Maverick,I have seen this several times in Lifeline and Sun Xtender, both made by Concorde, especially when installed on their side. It appears that terminal corrosion starts just under the case covering the terminal connection inside the battery. Not much you can do. The attached picture shows an example of the case splitting open on a GPL-8DL due to this type of failure. The battery is 9 years old and still has 70% capacity. Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems<> On Feb 23, 2012, at 9:39 AM, maver...@mavericksolar.com wrote:Wrenches,Has anyone else had Concorde AGMs leak around the terminal? Especially the negative post.If so, what did you do?Thank you,MaverickMaverick BrownBSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®President & CEOMaverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.Office: 512-919-4493Cell: 512-460-9825___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
John, Are you including your new RE battery as being acceptable for float/standby service without cycling? Since you do not recommend cycling your battery, do you also recommend no equalization charge when in float/standby use? Frankly I question the logic of leaving any deep cycle flooded battery at a constant float voltage for months or years at a time. Do you have test data that will help me overcome my skepticism? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 16, 2012, at 9:09 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Wrenches, Todd, Trojan Battery manufactures only true deep-cycling lead-acid batteries, from our 4 factories, based in the USA. Periodic cycling is not a requirement or benefit in achieving longer flooded lead acid deep-cycle battery life. There are some valid reasons to prefer flooded lead-acid deep-cycle lead-acid batteries for some residential semi-cycling / semi-floating applications. Typical floating-only applications do not have to feature a true deep cycle, although our Trojan products will work fine, without requiring periodic cycling. There are some batteries being marketed and labeled Deep Cycle that are not, and these will be affected by any amount of cycling, which is giving the Lead Acid industry a not so good name. John ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
I think Todd was asking if Jamie would chime in about the technical validity of using a battery designed for RE deep cycle use for float or standby, not the merits or anything about a brand. Question re-posed: For float/standby use would it be better to choose a high SG, lead acid/calcium battery designed for float/stationary service or a low SG lead acid/antimony battery designed for RE deep cycling? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 15, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Michael Welch wrote: Yes, William is correct and this is usually the case. Manufacturers are on this list to answer your questions about their own products and avoid entirely discussions that involve their competitors. Of course, sometimes the manu reps are among the better experts in their fields. If somebody poses a question about, for example, the generic use of L-A batteries in float systems, it sure seems appropriate for any expert to help the group out -- as long as they do not deal with their or their competitors' specific brands. So we walk a thin line in this area, and Wrenches need to consider how their questions are posed, and manus need to be careful with any responses they offer. William Miller wrote at 12:52 PM 2/15/2012: > Colleagues: > > I am no sure if it would be appropriate for a manufacturer to comment in this > forum on the relative merits of two competing battery products. > > Respectfully, > > William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
Me too! Larry On Feb 15, 2012, at 1:06 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i would LOVE it if jamie surrette would chime in on this comment. todd On Wednesday, February 15, 2012 10:51am, "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" said: I would not recommend using an RE battery for standby/back up use. There is a similar problem that I have seen. People use 6 volt golf cart batteries in their motorthome and then stay plugged into shore power for long periods of time. I see premature failures from this type of use. A golf cart battery is designed to be cycled, not left in float service. Without exercising the battery by occasionally discharging it and then charging and equalizing, it is likely to fail early. My opinion is anecdotal but I'm convinced it is true. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:38 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: > I've been happy with Trojan batteries. They do say that they need up to 100 > cycles to reach full capacity. so what does this mean for grid ties/battery back-up? todd ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
I would not recommend using an RE battery for standby/back up use. There is a similar problem that I have seen. People use 6 volt golf cart batteries in their motorthome and then stay plugged into shore power for long periods of time. I see premature failures from this type of use. A golf cart battery is designed to be cycled, not left in float service. Without exercising the battery by occasionally discharging it and then charging and equalizing, it is likely to fail early. My opinion is anecdotal but I'm convinced it is true. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:38 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: > I've been happy with Trojan batteries. They do say that they need up to 100 > cycles to reach full capacity. so what does this mean for grid ties/battery back-up? todd___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Question re Battery Bank Sizing
Alan, See if you can find the locked rotor amps (LRA) for this pump. Design to provide that much current for starting the pump. My guess is about 7-9kW for a 3HP. I'm not a fan of multiple parallel strings but you are correct that parallel strings will produce more instantaneous current. However in this case, I don't recommend it. Even with other loads it is not likely you will demand more than 250 amps @ 48Vdc draw on the battery to start the pump. That is not excessive for an AGM battery, especially since it is very short duration. If you need more battery capacity, opt for lower voltage batteries instead of paralleling. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 15, 2012, at 10:53 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: Esteemed fellow Wrenches, We need to size a battery bank for a GTWB just for starting a well pump. The well is on its own meter, so as long as the battery voltage does not crash when the pump starts there will be plenty of capacity left over for minimal loads. We'll be using sealed batteries, most likely Concorde SunXtenders. According to theSunXtender Technical Manual, Concordes can handle up to a C/0.2 charge rate (500A for a 100Ah battery), but there is no discussion of maximum discharge rates or voltage drop due to large surge loads. The pump is 3HP and is conventional 3-wire, not soft-start. The well is 940ft. and the depth to water is unknown. It pumps into a pressure tank, not open discharge. Customers are not interested in replacing the pump, but might be talked into adding a soft start Franklin controller, although at this preliminary design stage we're not certain one is available for this particular model. The inverter would be a Radian, so system voltage is 48V. I would think that configuration would make a difference, as well as size. Using 12V batteries in series/parallel would minimize interconnect and terminal resistance. I think that it would also allow multiple paths for discharge current, reducing the voltage dip. What's your best guess at the smallest size battery bank that would reliably start this pump, and how would it best be configured? Thank you, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interstate L-16 vs Trojan L-16REB
William, Be aware that Interstate is no longer using the high quality, USA made, US Battery for some their deep cycle batteries. They dumped them, and American jobs, for cheap Johnson Control batteries made in Mexico. Here's something else to be aware of: Interstate specifies that you charge all batteries (except the AGM) whose part number begins with a "U" at C/10 current and 2.583 Vpc @ 80° for 2-4 hours each day. I wrote to Interstate tech support and they confirmed this. To me the current seems low and the voltage really high for a daily charge. The Trojan RE batteries may seem weak when first installed. They can take up to 100 cycles before they achieve full capacity. We don't have any out long enough to judge the quality but I expect good things. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 14, 2012, at 1:18 PM, William Miller wrote: Colleagues: Do any of you have experience with Interstate L-16 batteries? Are they a good value? Thanks in advance, William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] PV module junction box needed
Still looking for about 200 PV module junction boxes that are 5" x 7". see attached picture. Please email me off list. la...@starlightsolar.com <>Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
Ken, Interesting. Do you know if Deka has more than one manufacturing plant? My Deka representative did respond. Perhaps I could have expressed this better: the response was "they are out of warranty". I knew that. However, due to the number of Deka battery failures we were experiencing, I would have expected something more than "no warranty". They did replace one 8D that failed at 13 months. Thanks Deka. During the last few years that we sold and installed the Deka AGM's, we also sold Lifeline, Sun Xtender, Trojan, Optima and FullRiver. We sold 3 times as many Lifeline as we did Deka. Zero failures form any other brand. I have a customer coming in today that has 2 8D AGM's. I installed these 11 months ago. His complaint is that the voltage will drop to 11.5 within 5 hours of use. I'll let you know what I find. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Feb 9, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Ken Schaal wrote: We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a premature failure. I have a set of 8D AGM's in my own system. The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs. Ken Schaal CommonWealth Solar - Original Message ----- From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems To: wes kennedy ; RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience Wes, While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's, I can tell you that we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote: Howdy Gents, I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries. The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17) vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19). Both have similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD. Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor. Thanks! -Wes Kennedy Solar Geek since 1996 303-653-3073 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
Wes, While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's, I can tell you that we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote: Howdy Gents, I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries. The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17) vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19). Both have similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD. Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor. Thanks! -Wes Kennedy Solar Geek since 1996 303-653-3073 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarEdge v Enphase
Once again Dan, you nail great information to this board. Key phrase: "used within its specification" Back in the '80's I replaced hundreds of small caps in very poorly designed 2-3 year old C-band satellite receivers, all damaged by excessive internal heat. Thanks for your input. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 12, 2012, at 4:59 PM, Exeltech wrote: Wrenches, I wish this urban myth about electrolytic capacitors would die, but it won't. It's been a wonderful marketing ploy for some time now. Simply stated, existence of electrolytic capacitors in inverters does NOT mean the inverters are less reliable. Satellites have been using electrolytic caps for decades, and look how long THEY last! (I know, because I've helped to design power supplies for aerospace applications.) What it boils down to is this: if a quality electrolytic capacitor is used within its specifications, you can expect 60+ years of life from it in an inverter application. Conversely, if a circuit is poorly designed, you can ruin any electronic part in a very short time. What defines capacitor "life"? It's defined as the doubling of the internal effective series resistance of the capacitor from the value it had when it (the cap) was new. This is energy lost. It also causes the capacitor to operate at a slightly higher internal temperature than when it was new (all other factors being the same). Result? It all depends on how the circuit is designed. In our case, the inverter efficiency decreases approximately a quarter to one half of a percent. The waveform distortion also increases, but it takes lab grade equipment to detect the change. If you're worried about a 1/2 percent drop in the inverter efficiency, your concern is misplaced. After all, PV degrades over time much more than that! So why the bad rap on capacitors? Like tires, they DO wear out. 40 years ago, "premium" tires were rated for 30,000 miles. Could you wear them out in less? Absolutely! Drive like a 16 year old kid with a muscle car, and it's easy. On the other hand, I just bought a new set of tires. The old ones still had tread, but at 88,000 miles, they'd seen their better days. This is a far cry from 30k mile tires. Capacitors have progressed in the same manner. A long time ago, capacitors wore out in 5 to 10 years. Today, it's an entirely different story. As long as the circuits in which the electrolytic capacitors are used are well designed, you have nothing to worry about. Electrolytic capacitors in a well-designed application will outlive all of us. Dan Lepinski Senior Engineer Exeltech ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion
Correction: I meant to say .05*C20 for AGM equalization current. Larry On Jan 6, 2012, at 4:48 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: Hello William, My understanding is once the SO4 is fully absorbed, excess H and O are produced and could be vented if the pressure rises above 5psi. So, when saturation is complete, voltage should be reduced and no gassing would take place. For this reason, I always recommend using charge current as the method to transition to float with VRLA batteries. Of course, proper voltage and temperature compensation are vital. I am not surprised that MK would say this. Their battery is manufactured by Deka. We just stopped selling ALL Deka AGM batteries because we are experiencing many failures after about 1-3 years of use. In almost all cases, the tops of the battery show evidence moisture because of excessive venting. The cases are also sucked in as a vacuum is created from the loss of electrolyte. My charging systems are all programmed to the letter of Deka's charge specifications. They will not warranty any. We have been equalizing AGM batteries for many years. When done properly, .05C of constant current with unregulated voltage, adjusted for temperature and time limited, the results are good in most cases. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion
Hello William, My understanding is once the SO4 is fully absorbed, excess H and O are produced and could be vented if the pressure rises above 5psi. So, when saturation is complete, voltage should be reduced and no gassing would take place. For this reason, I always recommend using charge current as the method to transition to float with VRLA batteries. Of course, proper voltage and temperature compensation are vital. I am not surprised that MK would say this. Their battery is manufactured by Deka. We just stopped selling ALL Deka AGM batteries because we are experiencing many failures after about 1-3 years of use. In almost all cases, the tops of the battery show evidence moisture because of excessive venting. The cases are also sucked in as a vacuum is created from the loss of electrolyte. My charging systems are all programmed to the letter of Deka's charge specifications. They will not warranty any. We have been equalizing AGM batteries for many years. When done properly, .05C of constant current with unregulated voltage, adjusted for temperature and time limited, the results are good in most cases. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 6, 2012, at 11:16 AM, William Miller wrote: Larry: I always thought that any breach of a valve in a VRLA battery was a sign of a failure. I recently spoke with a technician at MK Batteries and learned that venting and/or seepage is not uncommon and not a sign of failure. I have also heard in the distant past and then read recently on a manufacturer's web site that VRLA batteries can and should be equalized. The parameters are different from an FLA battery. William Miller At 09:12 AM 1/6/2012, Larry Crutcher, wrote: > You beat me to that one, Kent. Also, if your VRLA battery is emitting any > gas, you've got trouble. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion
Hi John, I am curious about what you saying "float or equalization". Here's my understanding: If the battery is able to accept all current presented, the electrochemical process, SO4 combining with H released through decomposition, is balanced and with little excess gas released. When the electrolyte becomes saturated there is no more SO4 to recombine and gassing is raised significantly, the volume increasing relative to voltage. Thus, equalization charging produces the highest volume of H and O gas. However, when the voltage is lowered to float, the current is at the lowest state, about 0.2 amps/100ah capacity, decomposition at that point is practically nil. Am I missing something or did you mean to say during the acceptance and equalization mode? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 6, 2012, at 9:00 AM, John DeBoever wrote: Kent, Thank you for pointing at the units. Please note that: · You are looking for cc/hr/Ah/cell rates at float and equalization voltages. · Gassing is a function of charging current (FLA: an ampere-hour of overcharge, i.e. during float or equalization mode, results in about 0.33 cc of H2O total gassing per cell) · For constant voltage (float or equalization) the current is a function of temperature and stage of battery life (plus any failure modes that begin to occur toward end-of-life) I’ll work up a response after a series of meetings. John ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion
You beat me to that one, Kent. Also, if your VRLA battery is emitting any gas, you've got trouble. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jan 5, 2012, at 5:58 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: John, Could you clarify units? "0.418 Liters/AH" is that per charge cycle? per hour? per minute? per cell? Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. www.bluemountainsolar.com On 1/5/2012 4:18 PM, John DeBoever wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > Here are some very general guidelines on the subject for consideration: > > o Free flow ventilation is required within lead acid battery room / > enclosure: > Batteries produce Hydrogen during charge, depending on the specific design > and application > The gassing appears approximately around 80%-90% SOC, depending on the > specific design and application > The amount of gassing increase with the battery ageing > Hydrogen becomes explosive at a concentration of 4% > Hydrogen levels must be kept below 1% or 2% percent > Flooded batteries typically produce .418 Liters/AH of Hydrogen at STC, > depending on the specific design and application > VRLA batteries typically produce .004 to .013 Liters/AH of Hydrogen at STC, > depending on the specific design and application > > o Cleaning maintenance guidelines: > Batteries are attract dust, dirt, and grime. Keeping them clean will help one > spot trouble signs if they appear and avoid problems associated with grime. > 1. Check that all vent caps are tightly in place. > 2. Clean the battery top with a cloth or brush and a solution of baking soda > and water. When cleaning, do not allow any cleaning solution, or other > foreign matter to get inside the battery. > 3. Rinse with water and dry with a clean cloth. > 4. Clean battery terminals and the inside of cable clamps using a post and > clamp cleaner. Clean terminals will have a bright metallic shine. > 5. Reconnect the clamps to the terminals and thinly coat them with petroleum > jelly (Vaseline) to prevent corrosion. > 6. Keep the area around batteries clean and dry. > > Hope this help, > > John > > John F. DeBoever > Global Projects & Technical Director – Renewable Energy > Trojan Battery Company > > 12380 Clark Street > Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 > Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139 > Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5) > Fax: +1-562-236-3239 > jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com > www.trojanbattery.com > > > Happy Holidays > > > > -Original Message- > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of bob ellison > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 12:18 PM > To: 'RE-wrenches' > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion > > I have had great luck by heating Vaseline to the hot liquid state then brush > it on all the exposed lead and I dip the cable ends also. > Doing this I have had 1 terminal that got corroded out of several hundreds. > > That gets you a thin coat and lasts for years. > "Clean and tight" is nice but it gets corroded at some point, and I hate > cleaning 1 terminal or 20! > > Later, > Bob Ellison > > > -Original Message- > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry > Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 10:37 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion > > Almost all RV's have a small, poorly vented battery box with 4 GC2 batteries. > We see corrosion all the time. When we replace batteries, we use zinc coated > copper terminals and apply a thin layer of grease with a toothbrush to every > exposed portion of the connectors. This simple step, with the occasional > reapplication, keeps all terminals as fresh as the day installed for many > years. I am speaking from experience of hundreds of installations. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain > information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from dis
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting; Corrosion
Almost all RV's have a small, poorly vented battery box with 4 GC2 batteries. We see corrosion all the time. When we replace batteries, we use zinc coated copper terminals and apply a thin layer of grease with a toothbrush to every exposed portion of the connectors. This simple step, with the occasional reapplication, keeps all terminals as fresh as the day installed for many years. I am speaking from experience of hundreds of installations. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems <> On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:40 PM, Jeff Yago wrote: Here is another issue related to this thread. Yes, you can build sealed battery boxes and add vent pipes, fans, whatever, but battery terminals and battery cables installed in a confined box will have far more problems with terminal corrosion due to more concentrated forms of gasses and a mist of acid moisture that will settle on all surfaces. We have been called in to repair off-grid systems that used battery boxes only a few years old that had battery cable ends and battery terminals almost totally dissolved, yet, we have the same type batteries and cables installed in larger well-ventilated battery rooms that you could eat off of the floor 10 years later. I say that battery boxes should be a last resort and used only when there is no other way, and then you better make sure there are multiple sources of adequate ventilation air. Jeff Yago DTI Solar Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery venting
Hi Jay, I have. 4 golf cart batteries were installed in a non vented compartment of an RV...with other electronics like inverter, relays, solenoids, etc. I was about 500 feet away and heard an expolsion. When I arrived at the RV, the bay door was mostly blown off the hinges. Needless to say the inside was a mess. Attached is a NIGHTMARE example photo. The compartment has covers to completely seal it with no venting. How many dangerous problems do you see? The proud owner had no concern when I told him about the dangerous situation he had created. We work on hundreds of RV's and I have seen many dangerous installations. Don't follow too closely...that could be a bomb rolling down the highway. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems <> On Jan 3, 2012, at 2:04 PM, jay peltz wrote: Hi All, We've been having this discussion about battery box explosions. I would like a show of hands who has actually seen or truly known of a battery enclosure that has exploded due to hydrogen gas build up. And some specifics about that occurrence if possible. Thanks, Jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] PV module junction box
Does anyone know where I can find PV module junction boxes that are 5" x 7"? See attached picture. Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems <>___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] small battery boxes
Hey Jeff, Ditto here. We purchase wall mount boxes and then weld our own pole mount adapters. See a few enclosures here: http://stores.ebay.com/Electrical-Replacement-Parts/_i.html?_fsub=13 I don't think these are Ul listed. Some have open bottoms. We install mesh material for ventilation. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 29, 2011, at 9:52 PM, Jeff Yago wrote: We are having a real problem finding a pole-mounted battery box for smaller solar sign lighting projects. We have switched to LED lights which cost more byt do not require the larger batteries and solar module. However, the smallest battery box we can find is the DPW 16" wide x 9" deep X 20" tall. This is a great box for group 31 battery, but is too large and costs too much for smaller applications. I am thinking about using a group 22 battery which would fit in a pole-mounted battery box that is 12" wide x 8" deep x 15" high, which still leaves room for a control panel at the top rear. It does not look like the solar manufacturers have anything, so do you know of anybody making a battery box this size but perhaps it is being sold for another type application. It still will need small screened louvers for ventilation and a locking door, but we can always make our own control panel if that is not supplied. Since its 12 volt DC and off-grid application I do not think it needs to be UL listed which might help reduce cost, but not sure. Any suggestions?? Thanks, Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of outdoor DC lighting...
Andrew, If it helps any I think we paid $150 for IP65 rated 50 watt LED flood fixtures. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 21, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: Thanks Isaac. I spoke with Frank and he was helpful. Those LED flood lights are not cheap! I am now thinking about using a SunSaver MPPT and a small "pocket inverter" to give myself more flexibility with the lighting options. Does anyone have any experience with the SunSaver MPPT Remote Meter? What functionality does it provide? Andrew Truitt Truitt RE Consulting On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Isaac Opalinsky wrote: Andrew, I used to work with Frank Patterson from The Lightup Company: http://thelightupco.com/. He has a bunch of standard fixtures, but can also custom build a lighting package. He's very familiar with the issues around DC LED lighting, like thermal management and stability. You will need fuses, both for the battery and the light. Isaac Opalinsky On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 1:26 PM, wrote: Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Speaking of outdoor DC lighting... (Andrew Truitt) -- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:47:39 -0700 From: Andrew Truitt To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Speaking of outdoor DC lighting... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ... I am putting together my first small DC lighting system for my backyard shed. It will consist of: [1] 180W Schuco module [1] Morningstar SunLight charge controller [1] Deka AGM 12V, 32Ah battery [1] Trimetric meter And I need to find the right 12V LED flood light(s). Any suggestions? The purpose will be for winter evening b.b.q's and late-night lawn bowling matches in summer. Any other advice for how to execute this installation? Does the SunLight come with fusing or do I need to protect it externally? Happy holidays to all! Andrew Truitt Truitt RE Consulting -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/attachments/20111219/388aa2bc/attachment.html> -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 4, Issue 409 *** ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC power for LED lighting
Jeff, About 8 months ago I built my first LED billboard powered by PV's. The LED light manufacturer could not deliver the 12 volt version fixtures in time but they had 120 volt models in stock. I modified the plans to use a Morningstar Suresine inverter. The system has been working flawlessly even through the 118 degree summer heat in Yuma. I used relay control to turn off inverter DC power during the day. Perhaps this will be a simple solution but you will need to add in the conversion losses. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Dec 16, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Jeff Yago wrote: I have a local sign company that asked is to provide a solar lighting system for a double sided sign they were building for a large retirement community entrance. We have provided many solar lighting systems just like this over the years and sent them several examples. All our systems have been turn-key in that we provided the 12 VDC ground mounted LED flood lights with the separately pole mounted solar module(S) and battery/controller box. We “assumed” when we told them our system includes the LED lights that they understood that we were providing the lighting. Unfortunately, when we arrived on the site to install the solar system, they said they did not need our LED lights, they wanted us to power the LED lights inside the sign. We opened up the signs and found two 120 VAC electronic LED power supplies. Each was clearly labeled as providing a maximum of 5 amps at 12 VDC output, and each powered a separate string of about 150 tiny plastic “blocks” and each block contained 2 small LED lamps. We immediately advised the client that the solar system was designed to power our two 12 VDC flood lights and we would have to totally tear out what we had just installed and go to a much larger system that included an inverter, larger array, 120 VAC timing device, and replace the 2 conductor DC underground wiring with 3-conductor AC wire and all this would really increase $$$. I said as an alternative, why can’t we just cut out the two electronic120 VAC input LED drivers since we are providing well regulated 12 VDC power direct from the GEL battery. He checked with their LED lamp supplier and they said they strongly disagree and will void warranty. Since we are talking about almost 300 total LED devices my client is afraid to give us the OK, even though we did run them overnight and everything worked just fine. As I recall, an LED needs something in the circuit to limit the amp current, not the voltage flowing through it, or it will just get brighter and brighter and then fail. However, I thought almost all strings of separate LED lights already had some kind of regulator built into each light block otherwise those near the end of the string would be less bright than those near the power source.Is this correct?? Finally, if strings of LEDs require some kind of voltage or current regulator, I can’t believe they all have to run on 120 VAC as indicated by this LED manufacturer who offers no alternative.Any LED experts out there that can point me to some type of DC-to-DC converter or current regulator that can replace these 120VAC LED drivers? Thanks, Jeff Yago ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
"If the current capacity of the diversion controller is exceeded then you want the relay to switch in the big load." A few questions. How do I turn on the big load based on current? The controller does not have a current detector, only voltage. Controller on first could still allow over-current if the voltage does not rise another .2 volts. Correct? Here's a scenario: Sun is up and voltage rises slowly to the diversion controller set point. PWM starts and maintains the voltage. Current continues to increase but the load is keeping the voltage constant until the controller is overloaded. It looks like the big load comes on only if power is high enough to overcome the response time of the PWM circuit in the diversion controller thus allowing the voltage pass the .2 volt offset. Also, my thoughts are the hysteresis in the SS relay needs to be broad enough to keep the big load on so it drops out last. Sorry that I'm not seeing your whole picture yet, David. The operation must be bullet proof. Can you elaborate more? Larry On Nov 30, 2011, at 11:05 AM, David Katz wrote: > Larry, > I think you want the PWM controller to start first so the turn on will be > smooth. If the current capacity of the diversion controller is exceeded then > you want the relay to switch in the big load. At that point the diversion > controller will back off and pickup the difference. That is why I suggested > the the relay controlled load be 50 to 75% of the pwm diversion load, so that > whenever it turns on the pwm controller will be working, too. > David > > David Katz > CTO & Founder > AEE Solar Inc > P: 707 825-1200 > F: 707 825-1202 > dk...@aeesolar.com > www.aeesolar.com > From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org > [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry > Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems > Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:49 AM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system > > David, > Ah..I think I see what you are saying. But, don't you mean .2 volts lower > than the diversion load? That way there will only be limited current left for > the diversion controller to handle. If it is the other way, what stops full > current from flowing through the diversion controller if the .2 volts is not > reached? Or is .2 volts two close to worry about that? > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling failed modules
Take them to Quartzsite, AZ in January. You'll sell them in a day. Recycle that junk into cash! Seriously, we often get calls from desert rats (picture some occupy wall street types with wiry hair and leathery, dust covered skin from dwelling in the desert too long) looking for used or busted modules. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 30, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > Over the years we have gathered a collection of failed and shattered modules > of various brands. It's a collection because we haven't wanted them to go > into our landfill. It's time to get them out of here as our space needs > increase. > > What's the sustainable and responsible way to deal with them? I'd be willing > to remove the aluminum frames where possible and ship the rest to a center > that would be equipped to responsibly recycle the materials, but I don't know > where to begin. > > I suspect we're not the only ones facing this, and solutions are out there. > All suggestions appreciated, thank you. > Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > al...@positiveenergysolar.com > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Positive Energy, Inc. > 3201 Calle Marie > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > 505 424-1112 > www.positiveenergysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
David, Ah..I think I see what you are saying. But, don't you mean .2 volts lower than the diversion load? That way there will only be limited current left for the diversion controller to handle. If it is the other way, what stops full current from flowing through the diversion controller if the .2 volts is not reached? Or is .2 volts two close to worry about that? Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 29, 2011, at 8:51 PM, David Katz wrote: > Larry, > If you need a bigger diversion than a Tristar can handle, you can use a relay > controlled by the auxiliary output of a charge control or inverter and have > the relay close when the voltage is 0.2 volts higher than the diversion > voltage. You can switch on a load that is 50 to 75 % of the diversion load > and let the diversion controller do the fine tuning. Let me know if that > does not make sense. > David Katz > > - Original Message - > From: Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems > [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 05:35 PM > To: RE-wrenches > Subject: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system > > Hello Wrenches, > > I would like some advice on diversion load control of 3800 watts of PV solar. > The battery bank is 48 volts and the battery inverter is the MS4448PAE. This > will AC couple with a grid tied inverter during an outage. Magnum Energy > recommends the addition of a dump load for safe battery voltage control. The > customer may leave the home unattended for weeks so I am looking for > reliability here. Quality, as well. > > A pair of Tristar 60's should be suitable for the 3.8kW output but I haven't > been able to find a load that is sized for this job. I welcome any advice on > this subject. Thanks in advance. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
Thanks Kent, Kirpal, Jay, Hugh, Et al, At 3.8kW, each TS-60 will divert up to 34 amps @ 56 volts, well under 75%. I will have isolated loads for each controller. Kent, what am I overestimating? One concern about two controllers is that if one has a lower turn on voltage than the other, the total load might be applied to it until voltage rise causes the second controller to to divert power. Without a way to limit controller current, I think this could be a problem. Over-current failure of one controller would cascade to the second then cause battery over-voltage until the Magnum shifted frequency to stop the grid inverter. Has anyone done diversion with two controllers? Another thought I had is to use a single controller for relay control of a 120 or 240 volt load. I'm thinking this will be easier but I'd sure like some input if you have done this. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 29, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: > Larry, > > I think Magnum's recommendation is more about proper battery charging than > safety. > > I'll second Kirpal's and Jeremy's recommendations for loads. The Tristar is > probably the best choice for this job, but you are overestimating what you > can do with it and paralleling two may have some coordination issues. The > Tristar 60 manual says to keep diversion loads below 45 amps (or somewhere > close to that). I think its a reliability issue so with a secondary shut down > method, you might be okay pushing it a bit. I'm not sure how you get two of > them to work together. > > Kent Osterberg > Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. > www.bluemountainsolar.com > t: 541-568-4882 > > > On 11/29/2011 5:35 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> Hello Wrenches, >> >> I would like some advice on diversion load control of 3800 watts of PV >> solar. The battery bank is 48 volts and the battery inverter is the >> MS4448PAE. This will AC couple with a grid tied inverter during an outage. >> Magnum Energy recommends the addition of a dump load for safe battery >> voltage control. The customer may leave the home unattended for weeks so I >> am looking for reliability here. Quality, as well. >> >> A pair of Tristar 60's should be suitable for the 3.8kW output but I haven't >> been able to find a load that is sized for this job. I welcome any advice on >> this subject. Thanks in advance. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Diversion load for AC coupled system
Hello Wrenches, I would like some advice on diversion load control of 3800 watts of PV solar. The battery bank is 48 volts and the battery inverter is the MS4448PAE. This will AC couple with a grid tied inverter during an outage. Magnum Energy recommends the addition of a dump load for safe battery voltage control. The customer may leave the home unattended for weeks so I am looking for reliability here. Quality, as well. A pair of Tristar 60's should be suitable for the 3.8kW output but I haven't been able to find a load that is sized for this job. I welcome any advice on this subject. Thanks in advance. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 90 degree wire bends
BANG. 500 megajoules running through a wire at the speed of light. The poor little wire is doing the best is can to transmit the power, creating a freight train of spiraling, magnetic fields along the way. A tight bend, creating high inductance, looks like a 8 foot thick concrete wall. BANG. This time as the energy explodes from the wire to find a path of lesser resistance. That about sums it up. I love it when I see "lightning protection" installations with neatly formed wires following every turn and contour tightly. Bang. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 16, 2011, at 9:01 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > I have seen the lightening damage at tight bends, but in my electrical career > of 60+ years I have not seen any other > problems. > Darryl > > From: Ray Walters > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:11 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 90 degree wire bends > > It seems that if the strands were stretched and therefore thinned, that that > would increase resistance, some. I think more importantly, the insulation > bunchs up and cracks, and is definitely compromised. Also with strain > hardening of copper, I'm sure some strands could break internally with a > tight enough bend. I've heard at least for bare ground wires that lightning > will jump off to the case at tight bends, but I've never actually seen that. > Aside from all that, is there actually an increased impedance from a tight > bend (like in plumbing)? I don't know. > I've had to stop more than one journeyman from violating 300.34. I just tell > them the bends should look like the long sweeps in conduit relative to the > diameter of the wire: also purdy. > > Aloha, > > Ray > > On 11/16/2011 10:35 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >> >> Some electricians have great fun in making 90 degree wire bends to try and >> make their enclosure wiring look so purdy. >> >> Given the importance of maintaining wiring radiuses, this can’t be a good >> idea, can it? Is the issue greater resistance when the wire is bent at a >> straight 90 degrees (or more)? >> >> Thanks, >> marco >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High-power MPPT/Charge Controllers?
Sounds like a project for Sunny Island and the Boy's. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 18, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Exeltech wrote: > Need info on MPPT/charge controllers able to output up to 500A at 48Vdc. > High-voltage DC input (up to 300Vdc) preferred. Units will connect to a > 20-24 kW PV array and 150 kW-h battery for a large off-grid system. > Not locked into 48Vdc. Can go up to 108Vdc (nominal) if needed. > > Any such CC units available? > > If not, what's been the collective Wrench experience in paralleling multiple > controllers of whatever max output amperage exists on the market? I realize > a paralleled configuration of this nature would entail multiple separate > arrays > in use on the input. That won't be a problem. Just need to be able to feed > the common battery bank. > > Thanks. > > Dan > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; The Last Word
Ron, >From what Daryl said below and the fact that your customer has about 15 amps >of PV charge, you should deduct that the batteries have MOSTLY been deficit >charged their entire life. Here's what I told you on Oct 22 in my lengthy >explanation about what the problem is and why it happened: "Undersized RE >charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the culprit that >contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic undercharging." You said that the customer has been compensating for an undersized system by running a generator. They can not know this because there is no monitor. The batteries now have a sulfation problem, perhaps unrecoverable, that could have been prevented if the owner had a battery capacity monitor. This is not pleasant news, I know. I have to explain this bad news to people MANY times each week. This is a huge issue globally. And such waste of money, time and resources just bugs me! Larry Crutcher Barer of Bad News Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 17, 2011, at 5:17 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: > Ron, > I'm going to reiterate what Jeff says here. It is similar to what I had > said in my email. The charge rate must REGULARLY be C10 on the KS > (5000 series) batteries. This means, on KS 25's, a routine bulk > charging rate of 135 amps. I find that on these types of hybrid > systems, while the batteries might occasionally (sunny day, generator > running, etc.) that kind of charging, they do not regularly see C10. I > think if you gave Jamie Surrette a call he would give you the same > possible assessment. > I do think the problem is oversulfation, but none of this solves your > problem, I know. We have been installing KS series batteries since they > came out and this necessity of regular C10 charging has been an > integral part of design for me for many years. > > Best, > Daryl > > > > >> Ron, >> >> >> >> This reply a little late since I have been off line a few days. I >> mentioned >> in a similar thread last year that I had an off grid home client I >> designed >> and installed in Idaho back in 1998 that had a Kohler 8.5 kw generator, a >> Trace 4024 inverter, two separate solar arrays and Outback charge >> controllers, and 16 Trojan "L-16" batteries. This system worked >> flawlessly >> for 7 years and only required the generator a few hours per month, then it >> was time to change the batteries. I replaced the Trojans with the same >> size >> battery made by Surrette and everything went to crap. They had to run the >> generator hours and hours to get them past an 80% charge and we had lots >> of >> problems with overloading the generator even though we did not make any >> program changes and used the same generator. The generator was replaced 2 >> years later but this system never worked like it did before the battery >> replacement. >> >> >> >> When researching all this at that time I had talked with Surrette, Trojan, >> and anyone else that might help and this is what I found out. Of course >> there are just my opinions based on these conversations, but it is my >> understanding that Surrette is a much longer life battery with much less >> water loss when comparing apples and apples, and I was told this was due >> to >> a different lead composition that Surrette uses than any other battery >> manufacturer. However, this difference requires a much longer >> absorption/taper off charge process or you will never get it past 80% >> charged. This of course is almost impossible to achieve with a generator >> or >> undersized solar array, and you really need a grid connection to fully >> charge these things. No doubt these would be great in some standby grid >> connected system but I no longer use them in off grid. This was also at a >> time when battery manufacturers were just discovering solar so maybe >> battery >> designs have changed. Again, I think Surrette is a good company and makes >> a >> great battery, but just not sure you can fully recharge them with a >> mid-sized generator. >> >> >> >> I also do not like using parallel battery layouts as its hard to keep one >> string from pulling down the other strings when there is a low performance >> cell so you might do a cell by cell check. >> >> >> >> Good Luck, >> >> >> >> Jeff Yago >> >> DTI Solar Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
1290 with temp correctionBuying 1.8 >>> Hour 6 32.0 v >>> Buying >>> 1.9 >>> Hour 7 31.8 v >>>1292 with temp correctonBuying 1.9 >>> Hour 8 complete---turned off Gen and turned on loads ---Batteries dropped >>> to 25.4 within 30 minutes and stayed there until this morning---fridge was >>> running, telephone, internet, wool carding machine, lights. This morning >>> hydrometer reading was at 1290. >>>> >>> >>> >>> Then today I just got this email: >>> >>> Just experienced another rapid voltage drop. As soon as the voltage hits >>> 24.8 the voltage drops like a rock if we don't have any input (no solar or >>> wind). >>> >>> This is not what I expected after a lengthy EQ. I'm getting them to do >>> another one tomorrow after a discharge cycle and charge but I'm really >>> beginning to think we have something else going on here, something >>> electrical, not chemical. The rapid voltage drop is puzzling. >>> >>> To review, it's an Outback 3524 on an Epanel, Whisper 100 & controller, 6 >>> 4KS 25 Surrette batteries in 24v configuration - 4.5 years old, .7kw >>> solar. I know the charging end is undersized but they have been >>> compensating with the generator and they get lots of wind in the fall, >>> winter, spring. >>> >>> Any more thoughts on this anyone? >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Ron Young >>> earthRight Products - Solareagle.com >>> Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products >>> >>> >>> On 2011-10-24, at 6:50 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ron, >>>> Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation >>>> properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify >>>> changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person >>>> taking the reading? >>>> >>>> Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't >>>> see from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this >>>> to be the next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and >>>> current. This will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the >>>> TrendPlot mode and track voltage and current over time. It provides a >>>> good visual understanding. >>>> >>>> In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a >>>> chart for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant, >>>> somewhat linear rise in voltage until the constant voltage setting is >>>> reached. If you see a sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If you see a quick >>>> reduction in current: suspect sulfation. The current should drop to >>>> about 8-10 amps at the constant voltage towards the end of charge cycle. >>>> The health and DoD will determine the time this takes, expect many >>>> hours. Begin equalization. >>>> >>>> <3s-chart.gif> >>>> >>>> A couple other points: Is the MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did you >>>> program the MX controller for an extended absorb time (advanced menu, >>>> absorb time limits)? The default setting is poor for large batteries. I >>>> use 90 minutes minimum and 4 hours max. This can greatly reduce the >>>> possibility of undercharging the battery but it may use more water. The >>>> timer (ChgT) will determine how long it stays in absorb each day. >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM, Ron Young wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Larry, >>>>> >>>>> I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers >>>>> description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't >>>>> jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your >>>>> greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test >>>>> and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the >>>>> possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another >>>&g
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
We are only on your back until you to do the advisable thing: Sell them a battery capacity monitor. It is a hard fact that NO off grid, battery based power system should be without a battery capacity monitor. They are cheap (only $150!) and not an option. Apparently, it is also hard learned fact. ;-) Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Ron Young wrote: > Hi Larry, no amp hour meter installed yet as the customer is penny pinching. > We're trying to solve the problem first and I've been out there twice, once > to do general diagnostics and check all connections, try to load test the > batteries, and so on; the second time I 'dropped in' to try a different load > test on the batteries to see if I could replicate the problem and to resolve > some other problems with a Whisper controller that had given up the ghost > when disconnected & re-connected to the batteries (all precautions taken). > It's a seven hour round trip and with time spent on the job makes for an > expensive service call. I only charged for one call and I have to go back at > least once more. So customer wanted to save some money on the installation of > the TriMetric until the spring... sorry for the long winded reply. I know, > it's false economy. So I'm thinking I'll just put the meter in and tell them > to pay me when they feel like it. It'll help solve the problem and get some > of the Wrenches off my back ... ;-) > > Ron Young > > On 2011-11-13, at 8:26 AM, > wrote: > >> Ron, >> I stick by my evaluation as seen here: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/msg10694.html >> >> The #1 reason for my opinion is that you can NOT drive up voltage on a >> healthy bank that size in just 5 minutes. It is impossible with a 2500 watt >> generator. >> >> Here is the pertinent part from my post: >> You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any >> heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 >> hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 >> minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That >> is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in >> voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or >> any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it >> would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. >> The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over >> 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 >> minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. >> >> Also, why have you not installed a battery monitor yet? It will give you >> "eyes" into the battery and spare countless hours of time diagnosing the >> problem. >> >> Larry >> >> Original Message >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery >> Sulfation >> From: Ron Young >> Date: Sat, November 12, 2011 9:57 pm >> To: RE-wrenches >> >> Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The client has done regular two hour >> EQ's, at least once a month. When did a site visit and I topped up the >> electrolyte (they'd been starving the batteries for water but always just >> above the plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were satisfied that >> the problem was solved but I wasn't and I told them what I had been hearing >> from this group - essentially that the batteries needed a deep EQ, >> discharge, recharge and EQ again two or three times to scrub the sulphates. >> They declined until just a few days ago when they said the rapid voltage >> drop was back. Here's a quote: >> >> We had another rapid voltage loss this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got up >> and it dropped rapidly to 22.8. We turned on the generator and charged the >> batteries until our display showed 30.2 for awhile with the generator >> running. We turned off the generator and the voltage settled at about 26.4. >> We turned off all loads and wind and solar. >> >> At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4 >> At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP (120V >> 5.75A) shop vac >> The display showed a load of 1.9kw >> At 9:40 the inverter shut down---display showed batteries at 18.4 >> By 9.47 the display showed the batteries at 25.2the solar and wind were
Re: [RE-wrenches] federal tax credit
Stange but true...many of my customers are claiming the credit for their RV PV solar system and a few have reported back: no problems. For some, the motorhome or trailer is their primary residence but for most it is just used part time. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 10, 2011, at 9:58 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: > Wrenches, > > I got the following information from a customer who ran the federal tax > credit by her accountant. As a double check... is this correct? > > Thanks, > > Todd > > > My accountant wrote: > > The taxpayer claiming the credit must be the owner of the home. The value of > these credits adjust basis for sale of home calculations. The residency test > for this credit is the same as what is used in determining ownership and > exclusion of gain on the sale of a primary residence. > The credit cannot be claimed on a commercial property, rental property or by > a tenant, and the taxpayer claiming the credit must be the owner of the home > which is being used as their primary residence. > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Off-Grid Inverter Recommendation
For me, the only one that fills that bill is the US made Magnum MMS inverter. http://www.magnumenergy.com/Products/MMSseries.htm If you don't want a built in TX and charger, we have had good success with the imported Samlex SA series made by Cotek. Available in 12 or 24 volt. http://samlexsolar.com/solar-products/pure-sine-wave-inverters/sa-series Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 11, 2011, at 7:45 AM, Jeff Irish wrote: > Any recommendations from those of you with extensive off grid experience for > a small inverter, sine wave, 500-1000 watt range 120 vac output, 12 or 24 VDC > nominal input? I’m looking for something with low standby losses when there > are no loads, and high reliability. Thanks! > > Jeff Irish, PE > President > Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc. > and Adirondack Solar > 13 Hook Road > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > T.845.876.3767x110 > F.845.876.3912 > j...@hvce.com > Renewable Energy Systems > Solar, Wind, Geothermal > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar "blemish"
Oops. My picture is of a blemished Evergreen 210. I saw the orange substance on your picture and thought that is what you were referring to. ...My Bad. Larry On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:41 PM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote: > Hello all, > We have a customer who has acquired, over the last ten years or so, a > large array with several different makes and models of panels, all > installed by a qualified electrician and the customer. They have done > an excellent job as far as self installed systems go. > He just sent me a picture of one of his Canadian Solar 210's with a > very unusual pattern on it (actually under the glass). The panel is > about three years old and shows no decline in output, but he is > concerned with the very obvious visible pattern. I have never seen > anything like it.I've attached it to this email. Anyone? > > Thanks for any suggestions or ideas, > Daryl___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup
Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend. With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, PV feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a transfer switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or dual inverters. No relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are always properly maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple. Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer switch. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote: > Any amount of power will AC couple. > > If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the protected > load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply loads, when > the grid is available. Just feed your grid tie inverter into the protected > loads panel. You will need a relay to shut off power from the grid tie > inverter when the batteries are full. This can be triggered by the fan relay > in the Outback. > > The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery > inverter's internal transfer switch during normal operation and AC couple > when the power is out. If your grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will need > to use a transformer or two inverters. > > The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a transfer switch > to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid availability, > keeping the inverter turned off. AC coupling seems much easier than using a > charge controller, but there is no conditioning of the batteries. The charge > is just on and off at the voltage set point. For a back up system, that is > not much of a problem, as the battery inverter can maintain the batteries > when power is available. > > > > At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote: >> Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. >> >> What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? >> >> Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The >> AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many >> components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution >> compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup
Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 9, 2011, at 6:14 AM, Drake wrote: > > I vote for the AC coupled system. But if you need to make a 600 VDC transfer > switch, I think you could likely make one from Tyco relays and voltage > controlled relays. http://relays.te.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf > > At 03:16 PM 11/7/2011, you wrote: >> Ray, >> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high >> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction. >> >> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled >> by the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains >> the battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost >> separate inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. >> However, the idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a >> transfer switch. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote: >> >>> Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using >>> a Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less >>> efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup >>> inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are >>> there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding? >>> I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for >>> new ideas though. >>> >>> Ray >>> >>> >>> On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >>>> Hi Glen, >>>> That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole >>>> transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the >>>> charge controller. >>>> >>>> Hello Gary Willit, >>>> Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high >>>> voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for >>>> Midnite Solar to build. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Larry Crutcher >>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >>>> >>>>> Siemens makes a line that are UL listed. >>>>> Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A >>>>> >>>>> -Glenn >>> ___ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Options & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out participant bios: >>> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > Drake Chamberlin > ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC > OH License 44810 > CO license 3773 > NABCEP Certified PV > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
Dick, I had that thought as well but it leaves open the possibility of paralleling the grid inverter and charge controller. What effect that will have is yet to be explored. This idea originated for my personal residence in Yuma which has 4400 watts of PV. We leave that home for several months in the summer but want to protect our frozen foods from power outage after having lost big $$ in ruined food. So I could employ the double disconnect if the AHJ will accept it but I have high reservations in selling that method to others. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote: > I may be missing something here.. but, for a manual switching solution, > why > not use two standard 600V DC discos. Put the PV to the top of both, load side > of > one goes to the battery inverter, load side of the other to the grid tied > inverter. Turn one off, turn the other one on. Not as elegant as a transfer > switch, maybe more expensive, but seems dirt simple and available now. > > Dick Ratico > Solarwind Electric > > > --- You wrote: > Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles in series of a > 300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v > rated equipment. > > R. Walters > r...@solarray.com > Solar Engineer > > > On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: > >> Ray, >> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high > voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction. >> >> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by > the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the > battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate > inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the > idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch. >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
Ray, Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction. The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using a > Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less > efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup > inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are > there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding? > I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for new > ideas though. > > Ray > > > On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: >> >> Hi Glen, >> That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole >> transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge >> controller. >> >> Hello Gary Willit, >> Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high voltage >> DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite >> Solar to build. >> >> >> >> Larry Crutcher >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> >> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: >> >>> Siemens makes a line that are UL listed. >>> Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A >>> >>> -Glenn >> > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
Hi Glen, That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge controller. Hello Gary Willit, Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite Solar to build. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote: > Siemens makes a line that are UL listed. > Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A > > -Glenn ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery idle losses; Sunny Island overhead
Hi Jeff, 1500Wh? That's a 62 watt loss 24/7. That is surprising as it's more than twice what the manufacturer claims; 25 watt with no load or 0.6kWh daily. However, as loads come on the idle losses quickly diminish as they are overtaken by the load. I have not done any SI jobs but that number, 1.5kWh, concerns me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 2, 2011, at 4:42 PM, Jeff Irish wrote: > William, > > I did a 2 year long study on a Sunny Island 5048 grid-intertie battery > back-up system and found the SI and batteries used about 1.5kWh per day in > "overhead". The batteries were 8 Concorde AGMs 212Ah C20. Hope that helps. > > Jeff Irish, PE > President > Hudson Valley Clean Energy, Inc. > and Adirondack Solar > 13 Hook Road > Rhinebeck, NY 12572 > T.845.876.3767x110 > F.845.876.3912 > j...@hvce.com > Renewable Energy Systems > Solar, Wind, Geothermal > NYSERDA Eligible PV Installer > NABCEP Certified PV Installer ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery idle losses; Deka AGM
Hi William, You asked how much energy the "battery" is expect to consume. At 300 to 1200 watts perhaps you mean how much the XW's consume from the battery? The idle current? Please clarify. The battery does not consume power except for self discharge which is very small. If healthy, the 8A8D will have about 2% per month self discharge, tested by open circuit voltage. As it ages, expect that to increase. If you have a defective 8A8D battery(s), it will usually exhibit high surface temperature and possible valve opening during the end of the absorb cycle (57.6 volts @ 77°). Check the current going to each battery. You can do this with two clamp on DC current meters on either side of the battery in test. Current should be about 0.5 to 1 amp across the battery at the end of absorb. High current and temperature indicate a defective battery. This battery(s) will act as a load and will lower the net bank capacity at night. BTW, I have never been able to recover an AGM from this state. Now...some bad news. The MK 8A8D is a Deka AGM battery. We have sold and installed these 8D's for many years with few failures. Lately we are having far too many Deka's going bad in just over 1 year. Since it only has a 1 year replacement, my customers are VERY upset. After speaking with my Deka rep. last week and I have decided to advise customers to not purchase the Deka 8D's. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 31, 2011, at 8:20 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I have looked on the on-line literature but I can not find this answer: I > have a client with 16 MK 8A8D batteries in 48 volt configuration feeding 3 XW > inverters. How much energy will these batteries be expected to consume at > night? We simulated darkness measured a wide range of values, anywhere from > 300 watts to 1200 watts. Has anyone measured or calculated this? > > Thanks in advance... > > William ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Connecting charge controller to grid tie inverter
Wrenches, I'm thinking out loud here: Could the new XW MPPT 80 600 be tied to the PV input side of a grid tie inverter simultaneously? I'm looking for a simple way to add a small battery and inverter to an existing grid tie for backup. I imagine the MPPT circuits on each device would conflict. Plan B would be a DC transfer switch for the PV array and run AC to the inverter/charger to keep the battery maintained. Transfer would be manual when the grid drops out unless someone knows of a 500Vdc automatic transfer switch. I'd appreciate some input. Thanks. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Hi Ron,Accurate SG readings are not simple. Was temperature compensation properly employed? Have they been keeping a log book to identify changes? How accurate is the hydrometer? How skilled is the person taking the reading? Most of the Battery Wrench responses suggest equalization but I don't see from any of your posts that this has been done yet. I suggest this to be the next step and I recommend that you carefully watch voltage and current. This will tell you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter in the TrendPlot mode and track voltage and current over time. It provides a good visual understanding.In case others are using this forum to glean information, attached is a chart for illustration of the charge cycle. You should see a constant, somewhat linear rise in voltage until the constant voltage setting is reached. If you see a sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If you see a quick reduction in current: suspect sulfation. The current should drop to about 8-10 amps at the constant voltage towards the end of charge cycle. The health and DoD will determine the time this takes, expect many hours. Begin equalization. A couple other points: Is the MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did you program the MX controller for an extended absorb time (advanced menu, absorb time limits)? The default setting is poor for large batteries. I use 90 minutes minimum and 4 hours max. This can greatly reduce the possibility of undercharging the battery but it may use more water. The timer (ChgT) will determine how long it stays in absorb each day.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM, Ron Young wrote:Hi Larry,I immediately assumed sulphated battery when I heard the customers description a couple of weeks ago but the hydrometer readings didn't jive. Any sulphated battery I've encountered, and I defer to your greater experience, has always revealed itself with a simple S.G. test and these batteries were reading above 1.265. I then thought the possibility of a defective hydrometer and had them test with another but we just got confirmation of the same thing. The weird drop in voltage also isn't explained by your description. Why would this just happen without loads or charging present (except maybe the DC Sunfrost load) at the same predictable time at 4 a.m. The fact that when the generator was turned on and sent a surge of current into the system and the problem went away made the detective in me think there had to be another explanation. The bank was at rest for several hours through the night and the voltage dropout was cured by a brief application of charge current. When I arrived on site my discovery that the client was under watering the batteries and this chronic condition resulted in a very rich electrolyte, reading well above 1.265 - into the 1.280 range made me think that was the problem and it seems to have gone away now that the electrolyte level was raised and the batteries given a good charge. But it still nags at me that something else is lurking in the shadows. Your description of the sulphate converting to a crystalline form has me worried because if this is the case this expensive battery bank is in danger. I would have to camp out at the site and monitor the charging over a day or so. I'm going to forward some of your comments and those of others that have generously offered suggestions and we'll see if I can convince the client who now believes everything is A-Ok.Best Regards,Ron YoungearthRight Products - Solareagle.comAlternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Thank you Darryl. The important thing is internal temperature. Any current up to the manufacturers specification can be used but C/20 means I usually don't need to baby sit the battery temp during long term recovery attempts. Adjust accordingly. One thing I didn't mention is that it's not harmful to deficit charge a battery for a few days or perhaps a couple weeks as long as the battery gets a 100% charge within that time frame. This may require more frequent equalization. Larry On Oct 23, 2011, at 6:22 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote: > Thanks Larry, this is one of the best explanations I have seen. I am saving > it for my customers and students. I would emphasize the C/20 (as you said) > or a little less for perhaps C/30 for this long term equalize or desulfation. > Too fast an equaliziation can loosen (blow the plate material off the plates) > . (I built a 60 hZ desulfator and have used it twice in 40 years, it seems > to work) > > Thanks again great piece of writing and explanation, everyone should read > Darryl > From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" > > To: RE-wrenches > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation > > Hi Ron, > > As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery > condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely > confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. > > Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. > 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the > battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the > bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is > in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful > indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. > > You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any > heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 > hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 > minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That > is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in > voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or > any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it > would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. > The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over > 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 > minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. > > Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery > plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving > some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of charging. Unless these > portions are cleared off regularly by achieving 100% SoC and occasional, > thorough equalization, the amorphous sulfate will convert to a crystalline > form and grow. 99% charge, if not corrected in time, will always cause > premature battery failure. > > Undersized RE charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the > culprit that contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic > undercharging. I say contribute because there are other factors. Fact: it can > take 10-12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery. Fact: The time element > of battery charging is a highly misunderstood part. With only a few daily > sun-hours to work with, how do we get a battery charged with PV solar? > Properly sizing the PV array to the battery AND consumption is critical. One > method I think is essential for nearly all PV systems is use a generator and > charger, appropriately sized to the battery. By bulk charging early in the AM > you can reduce the finish time to perhaps 5-6 hours of constant voltage > charging, something easily done with a PV system. > > Ron, you might be able to recover some capacity in this bank if the sulfate > has not formed hard crystals by now. You can try a very long charge time, up > to 24 hours, at high voltage, about 31 volts. You will need a larger > generator. Monitor the temperature and reduce current if they get up to 125F > internal. In our shop I have recovered sulfated batteries with high voltage > charging, as much as 3Vpc (do not do this with any loads connected), at > reduced current, about C*.05, and a 1 kHz pulser that I built. My findings > over the years is the current will begin to rise very slowly,
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; ...Battery Sulfation
Hi Ron, As many on this list have suggested, it sounds like a sulfated battery condition. In your last message you revealed something to me that absolutely confirms this but perhaps you didn't recognize it. Battery voltage readings are deceiving because they do not indicate capacity. 25.7 volts sounds like a fully charged 24 volt bank, but is it? Only if the battery was at rest for 5-6 hours could you have some confidence that the bank was full at this voltage. But this is not the case because the bank is in daily use, always charging or discharging. However, there is one useful indication that voltage can be used for: detecting a sulfated battery. You mentioned that the the battery drops to 24.5 in the early AM without any heavy loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates to about 800AH at the 72 hour rate. Then you said that the customer ran a 2500 watt generator for 5 minutes and drove the voltage up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated battery bank. A fast rise in voltage indicates sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny generator, or any charge source they own for that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it would take to drive a healthy battery up to the absorb voltage of 29 volts. The bank is about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There would have to be over 20,000 Wh removed to be at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in 5 minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you are getting the picture. Why did this happen to these expensive batteries? Glad you asked. Battery plates are not uniformly efficient in the electrochemical process leaving some portions with lead sulfate even after 8 hours of charging. Unless these portions are cleared off regularly by achieving 100% SoC and occasional, thorough equalization, the amorphous sulfate will convert to a crystalline form and grow. 99% charge, if not corrected in time, will always cause premature battery failure. Undersized RE charging systems, or perhaps oversized batteries, is the culprit that contributes to this all too frequent phenomenon of chronic undercharging. I say contribute because there are other factors. Fact: it can take 10-12 hours to fully charge a lead acid battery. Fact: The time element of battery charging is a highly misunderstood part. With only a few daily sun-hours to work with, how do we get a battery charged with PV solar? Properly sizing the PV array to the battery AND consumption is critical. One method I think is essential for nearly all PV systems is use a generator and charger, appropriately sized to the battery. By bulk charging early in the AM you can reduce the finish time to perhaps 5-6 hours of constant voltage charging, something easily done with a PV system. Ron, you might be able to recover some capacity in this bank if the sulfate has not formed hard crystals by now. You can try a very long charge time, up to 24 hours, at high voltage, about 31 volts. You will need a larger generator. Monitor the temperature and reduce current if they get up to 125F internal. In our shop I have recovered sulfated batteries with high voltage charging, as much as 3Vpc (do not do this with any loads connected), at reduced current, about C*.05, and a 1 kHz pulser that I built. My findings over the years is the current will begin to rise very slowly, peak then drop if the recovery is working. Sorry that this post is getting so long. There's just so much. OK, one last thing. In my last post to you I recommended a battery AH monitor. This problem could have been detected and perhaps prevented if they had one. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Ron Young wrote: > Hi Maverick & everyone, > > I visited the site a couple of days ago and load tested the batteries, > checked individual voltages in the string of six Surrette 4KS25's (4.3v > each), checked all connections etc. The client told me that when they would > go to bed battery volts read 25.7. Through the night this would seem to stay > steady. About 4 a.m. as far as they could tell the voltage would drop to > about 24.5. This happened without a load present and with no charging present > (calm, no wind, no sun). They would start up the generator for five minutes > in the morning and see the voltage come up to just above 29v then turn off > the generator (a small Honda 2500) and the voltage would settly at 25.7 and > remain there most of the day even when using their light loads, some lights, > phone system, laptop and the Sunfrost. > > When checking the batteries I noticed they needed watering and mentioned this > to the customer. The electrolyte was just over the plastic screen above the > plates by about 1/4 inch. He said he had just watered them and always kept > them filled. I replied that they were low and when he looked he
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
I may have mislead some with my last post. When I said Outback was "much better than any of the other Made in China products", I did not mean to imply that Outback was made in China. Outback products are made in the US. My wording was poor. Sorry for the confusion. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 18, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: > I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK > battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far > as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for > off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. > > In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, > the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration > and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to > be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were > released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would > of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only > install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. > I'm not "disssing" Outback as I think they are much better than the any of > the other Made in China products. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Instruction manual / User interface rant
I second the vote for Magnum Energy remotes. When combined with the BMK battery monitor and AGS, there is simply nothing better on the market as far as function and ease of use. The new ME-ARC offers very advanced control for off grid or grid connected systems. And Made in USA makes me a huge fan. In our early years we only sold Outback for off grid use. Although reliable, the configuration, programing and customer use has created much frustration and cost. When your customer is 6 hours drive into Mexico, I want things to be easy for the customer to understand. After the FM controllers were released, we had several failures that soured my opinion on Outback. It would of helped if they covered my cost but no compensation was given. Now we only install Magnum products for off grid systems and high end mobile installs. I'm not "disssing" Outback as I think they are much better than the any of the other Made in China products. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:16 AM, PRP wrote: > Magnum with the standard control. > Have yet to have a end user mess it up that can't be fixed with a phone call. > > In fact with over 8 systems out there only one customer that has had any > problems at all. > > -- > Pine Ridge Products LLC > 1646 East Highwood Rd > Belt, MT 59412 > > www.pineridgeproducts.com > www.chinookturbines.com > > On Monday, October 17, 2011 at 10:23 -Oct 17, William Miller wrote: > >> Mark: >> >> The XW SCP is no picnic either. Are there any off-grid inverters with a >> decent user control panel? >> >> William ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery problem; AH Metering is Important
Hello Ron, To me, battery AH monitoring is a vitally important component when designing an off grid RE system. There are 10's of thousands of reasons why, aka customers that have unwittingly ruined batteries. It is not a luxury item; for a tiny percentage of the system cost you can add this invaluable tool. Think of how your problem solving would be enhanced if this customer told you, for instance, the bank was down 700AH. Battery Wrenches well know that sometimes an event will occur where batteries can be severely discharged in just a day. A user may think everything is OK because the inverter still works. AH metering will expose these events and will keep the user well informed. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 8, 2011, at 11:31 AM, Ron Young wrote: > There is no amp hour meter in the system. The dump load on the Whisper sounds > like a possibility... Batteries are 4ks21 Surrettes with an 1100 a/h rating > @20hr rate and should have plenty of life left in them. They have been eq'd > on a regular basis and maintenance has been good. Alas the customer doesn't > own a multimeter so can't check the individual battery voltages but has > checked each cell with tubular hydrometer and tell me that all cells are in > the green. They may misread a hydrometer but the colour is easy to see so I'm > pretty sure they don't have a bad cell. > > Ron ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] What's the right action?
I think you hit it on the head, an honest, simple explanation. If he is unreasonable, just go buy him some Johnson Control specials for $68 at Sams Club. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Oct 6, 2011, at 3:32 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > OK, here's one way off the beaten path. > > I live in an historic offgrid rural neighborhood of eccentrics. Makes for > quite rewarding life and work. In 2003 a neighbor came to me for a system. > His budget was $6K and needs were modest. He didn't want installation, would > install it himself. We built a system on a plywood panel with DR2424 and > XP250, DC175, SunSaver, Tri-Met, with all proper disconnects, prewired with > connection points labeled. Array was two SX150s on a pole-top rack, and it > used eight golf carts; a good budget system for that time. Phil Undercuffler > (of Outback now) did the work well. The neighbor was pleased with the result > and took the system home with him except for the batteries. Paid in full, > check was good (as they virtually always are). > > He never came back for the batteries. We saw each other periodically, and > after once or twice I stopped asking about them, figured he had his reasons. > Golf carts are the only batteries we routinely stock, and his were eventually > rotated back into stock to keep it fresh, so no special-order loss there. > Last week we passed on our "road" and he stopped me to ask for the dimensions > for the battery box he was about to build, and said he'd be in touch to get > the batteries. > > In 2003 golf carts were $75 and cores kept the beer fund stocked in good > weather. Today they're $150 exchange, with a $20 core value. So I'm posting > to get preemptive guidance when he comes for his batteries. > > It seems the most straightforward approach is to simply tell him the current > cost of the batteries and offer to apply the $600 he paid in 2003 toward the > current cost for eight without core exchange. He won't be expecting to fork > out an extra $760. I'd like to keep him satisfied, and can see at least eight > different ways to approach this, all justifiable and none ideal. > > Has this ever happened to you? What would you do, that's fair, equitable, and > is likely to keep a reasonable customer happy? > > I'll post what eventually happens when it's done. Of course, that could be > another eight years. > > Thanks, Allan > -- > Allan Sindelar > al...@positiveenergysolar.com > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Positive Energy, Inc. > 3201 Calle Marie > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > 505 424-1112 > www.positiveenergysolar.com > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Re-configuring expanded array
Hi Holt, Ditto what Allan saidOr, If you must have the extra power, add a separate charge controller to operate those two PV modules. I assume that the modules are already owned since you would not design a system with mixed modules. Mixing different PV modules will always cause a loss of potential power when using MPPT controllers. However, you don't have much choice from an economic standpoint. Just try to match the Vmp between the strings. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 30, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Holt, > The string of two will contribute nothing to the charging, as the combined > input voltage will be above Voc for the string of two. Better off storing the > last two for spares. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > al...@positiveenergysolar.com > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Positive Energy, Inc. > 3201 Calle Marie > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > 505 424-1112 > www.positiveenergysolar.com > > > > > On 9/30/2011 7:55 AM, hol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: >> >> Battery based grid tie system >> >> Current array: 20 modules - 5 strings of 4 >> Proposed array: 32 modules - 10 strings of 3, 1 string of 2 - all to MNPV12 >> combiner >> >> changing charge controller (long story) and expanding system to 2 CC's. >> voltage limits me to 3 max in string. >> >> Question: is the 3-2 mix of strings an issue? Also - would modules of >> slightly different voltages in the same string be an issue? >> >> Think I know the answer - that's why I'm asking others.just want to be >> sure >> >> Holt E. Kelly >> Holtek Fireplace & Solar Products >> 500 Jewell Dr. >> Waco TX. 76712 >> 254-751-9111 >> www.holteksolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Hey Todd, Yep. We use the Sun Xtender and Lifeline 2 volt L16 AGM's for 12 volt systems in RV's and small off grid. We also sell the Tall GC2 battery for lower capacity applications. So far, so good. I have not sold any flooded 2v L16's but we have sold Crown 6 volt L16's for years and I have not had a single failure yet. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 17, 2011, at 10:36 AM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: > What about the 2 volt L-16 versions? Has anyone had success with them for > larger banks? I work alone and HUPs are too heavy to lift on my own... > however 24, L-16's in one series string would be a hell of a battery bank too. > > Todd > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2011 1:03pm, "Ray Walters" said: > > Larry, > > I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and strings. If that's > really the case, it seems L16s will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also > crazy. I see only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or > other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart batteries to L16s isn't > even on the plate for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no > brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher > range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too > optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 > becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, > when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware. > Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the internet: > 3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200. cycle life at 80% > DOD about 450 to 500 cycles. > HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100 cycles to 80%DOD. > That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery compared to about > 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. > This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra maintenance required > for watering the L16 type battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery > replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. > Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective by about a 3 to1 > ratio. > > Ray > > > > Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no > matter how much better the GC2 may be. > Larry > On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > > The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. > Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries > (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about > 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 > cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and > your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always > compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if > a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the > golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. > We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the > HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make > sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. > The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements > were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not > afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't > appreciate their long term value. > I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding > in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. > L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a > chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you > happier in the long run. > > Ray Walters > > > > > > Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ray, If we were comparing the T-105 to the Trojan L-16 in a single string, I agree the T-105 will provide more life cycles. Been there, done that. But that was not the comparison. Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be. Larry On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote: > The real point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a scientific stance. > Experimental battery cycle life data shows that some golf cart batteries > (T105) do have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs about > 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have cycle life below 400 > cycles) isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and > your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must always > compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if > a manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the > golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique. > We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings), jump straight to the > HUPs for larger banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make > sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan. > The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery bank requirements > were beyond 4 strings of golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not > afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and wouldn't > appreciate their long term value. > I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data, comparing costs, adding > in maintenance and replacement labor, etc.. > L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost comparison, so this is a > chance to up sell the customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you > happier in the long run. > > Ray Walters > > > > > On 9/16/2011 10:15 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar wrote: >> >> Hi Ron, >> Have a look back a few months ago to the discussion about multiple battery >> strings. My synopsis: large, parallel banks are not good; fewer strings are >> always better. How large a bank are we talking about here? >> >> Scientist?? That sounds kind of like “Yea, I been a ‘lectrician for XX >> years...”, something I have heard hundreds of times. It’s just pride saying >> “Look, I can pee that far too!” when in reality they are clueless about DC >> power systems. I’m ranting but my point is you should convince your customer >> that a hands-on, real world experienced professional has a much broader >> understanding of RE system intricacies than a “scientist”. >> >> Larry >> >> From: Ron Young >> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:11 PM >> To: RE-wrenches >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery >> >> Hi Larry, >> Client has asked me to compare the cycle life because he is upgrading a >> large battery bank and has been convinced by a Xantrex "scientist" that golf >> cart batteries are superior to L-16's even though it involves twice as many >> batteries, connections, cells, footprint etc. So to convince his purchasing >> committee he wants to know the difference in cycle life between a U.S.B 208 >> and a Surrette S-460. >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] battery cycle life, US Battery
Ron, For many years we have sold the US2200's and the Interstate version, the U2200 and I'd say they are nearly as good as the Trojan T-105. (buyer beware: Interstate switched to Johnson Control junk batteries and no longer sells the American made US Battery. http://starlightsolar.com/interstate.htm) I consider Rolls a superior long life battery compared to any other L16's. Curious here: why are you comparing an L-16 to a GC2? US Battery also makes a floor scrubber version, model US16HC XC. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 15, 2011, at 4:23 PM, RM You wrote: > Hi Wrenches, trying to compare battery cycle life on L-16 Surrette/Rolls vs. > U.S. Battery golf cart. Can't seem to find any clear info on the U.S. Battery > 208 a/h golf cart. The chart that U.S. battery shows on their website only > gives one cycle life graph for all of their batteries whereas Surrette/Rolls > differentiates between the series 4000 and series 5000. > > Comments? > > Best Regards, > Ron Young > earthRight Products - Solareagle.com > Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] unique battery bank design question
There is only one 12 volt tap and one 24 volt tap plus ground. Picture two 12 volt batteries in series for 24 volts with the center going to the 12 volt tap. The only other positive voltage source is the 24 volt connection. The equalizer pulls from that terminal to maintain equilibrium between the two batteries. <> For 48 volt to 24 or 12 volt conversion we sell the IDC converters from Samlex America. http://www.samlexamerica.com/products/subcategory.asp?CategoryID=5&packagetype=13 Larry On Sep 2, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Michael Welch wrote: > I am merely a solar bozo. > > One correction, I think it "shares" current from the second 12 V tap, not the > 24 V tap. > > I do not know if the equipment is capable of an equalizing scheme whereby it > can tap 12 V and 24 V off the same 48 V string (per the original question in > this thread), but a quick call to Vanner would provide answers. > > Larry Crutcher, wrote at 10:26 AM 9/2/2011: > >> Correct. As a mobile RE dealer and service center, I see quite a few 24 volt >> systems with Vanner or other equalize type converters. As 12 volt current >> increases it causes one battery voltage to drop. The equalizer then shares >> current from the 24 volt tap to the 12 volt tap to maintain equal voltage >> across the two batteries. I'm not sure I said it better the Michael, just >> different for more clarity. >> >> Are you sure you are not a REAL wrench? >> >> Larry >> Starlight Solar Power Systems >> >> On Sep 2, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Michael Welch wrote: >> >>> What the Vanner Voltmaster equalizer does is track the voltage differences >>> between two parts of the string, and provides current from the other part >>> to the first part when needed. If a tap decreases the voltage in part of >>> the string, the other part of the string is used to help make up for it -- >>> equalizing the two. >>> >>> Gosh, I hope I described that well enough, not being a real wrench and all. >>> >>> http://www.vanner.com/battery-equalizers/ >>> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] unique battery bank design question
Correct. As a mobile RE dealer and service center, I see quite a few 24 volt systems with Vanner or other equalize type converters. As 12 volt current increases it causes one battery voltage to drop. The equalizer then shares current from the 24 volt tap to the 12 volt tap to maintain equal voltage across the two batteries. I'm not sure I said it better the Michael, just different for more clarity. Are you sure you are not a REAL wrench? Larry Starlight Solar Power Systems On Sep 2, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Michael Welch wrote: > What the Vanner Voltmaster equalizer does is track the voltage differences > between two parts of the string, and provides current from the other part to > the first part when needed. If a tap decreases the voltage in part of the > string, the other part of the string is used to help make up for it -- > equalizing the two. > > Gosh, I hope I described that well enough, not being a real wrench and all. > > http://www.vanner.com/battery-equalizers/ > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Western Massachusetts installer needed
I am looking for someone to install a PV solar and inverter/charger system in an RV is Western Massachusetts. It is similar to an off grid system. Please contact me off list if you can help. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Jacobs Wincharger Book, 1978?
Thanks but I just bought one for $2.77. I actually saw someone asking for $75! With perfect pleasure I shall peruse the pages as I post in the privy. Just like old days. Larry On Aug 25, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > We plan to start carrying both of Hackleman's books very soon in the USA. You > can still get them directly from Michael. Since we will be getting more, I'd > be happy to part with my copy! Just contact me off-list. > > Dan Fink > Executive Director; > Buckville Energy Consulting > Buckville Publications LLC > NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers > http://www.buckville.com/ > i...@buckville.com > 970.672.4342 (voicemail) > 970.373.1311 (fax) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Jacobs Wincharger Book, 1978?
Your the man, Allan. It was the Hackleman book, published in 1975. Thank you. Larry On Aug 24, 2011, at 9:55 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Larry, > It was either Wind and Windspinners or The Homebuilt, Wind-Generated > Electricity Handbook, both by Michael Hackleman with substantial contribution > by Windy Dankoff. > Allan Sindelar > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power > Systems wrote: > This one's for you old timer wind wrenches. > > Back in 1978 I bought a book on wind generators and rebuilding the Jacobs > Winchargers. It was a paperback about 11"X 9". This book was my introduction > to renewable energy. Does anyone remember the name or author? On a long shot, > does anyone have a copy they would part with? > > Let's see how many of you have been around long enough to remember that one! > > Thanks. > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 > Yuma, AZ 85367 > > la...@starlightsolar.com > (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Jacobs Wincharger Book, 1978?
This one's for you old timer wind wrenches. Back in 1978 I bought a book on wind generators and rebuilding the Jacobs Winchargers. It was a paperback about 11"X 9". This book was my introduction to renewable energy. Does anyone remember the name or author? On a long shot, does anyone have a copy they would part with? Let's see how many of you have been around long enough to remember that one! Thanks. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Phosphate for grid back up
Hi John, Current is not reduced "due to" the PWM or the MPPT process ass you described. Current is reduced as a function of the electro-chemical process causing the internal resistance to increase as the cells reach full absorption. The PWM regulation only controls voltage. MPPT is only converting voltage to current before PWM controls voltage. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 24, 2011, at 9:36 AM, John DeBoever wrote: > Darryl, > > Lead acid battery typically recommended bulk charge is 10-15% of C20 for the > flooded lead acid and 20 -25% of C20 for the sealed valve regulated lead > acid. Depending the application and the environment, these rates could be > optimized, on a case by case basis. As the battery voltage raise to the > absorption voltage (regulation voltage), the current automatically tappers > due to the PWM or MPPT regulation. > Off-grid standalone PV systems optimum designs feature 5-days autonomy at 80% > DOD at the worst month-average low temperature. Off-grid PV-genset hybrids > optimum designs typically feature 2 to 3 days autonomy at 80% DOD same > conditions. The purpose of the large battery bank is to take the best > advantage of the solar energy when it is available to store Ah in the battery > for a desired power supply system power availability level. So the maximum > current available from the PV array, after powering the load, is not wasted > and sent into the battery during bulk charge and then tapered in as the > voltage raise. > > Lithium-ion batteries charge mode have certain benefits in some well-defined > applications requiring fast charge with the requirement of a BMS. > > John ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump
We've had very good service from Sunpumps: http://www.sunpumps.com/ProductsClient.aspx 800-370-8115 Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On Aug 23, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Peter Talmage wrote: > Does any one know of a source for a reliable 230 vac submersible water pump > that will pump a gallon per minute at 300 feet ? Thanks. > > Peter Talmage, P.E. > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan RE Series Tech question
Hi Dave, Since the battery bank will be standing with little discharge for 8 months, there is no need for daily high voltage. I would recommend a lower voltage daily charge up to about 14 volts for 1 hour. Set the float voltage for 13.2 (per Trojan instructions). I would also set a 30 day equalize charge for 1 hour at 14.8~15 volts. Make sure they do a full and proper equalization cycle before they start this lower voltage regime. I would disable the Solar Boost 50 and just use the Outback to maintain the bank. This should keep it healthy without much water loss. We have customers in Mexico that leave for 6-8 months in the summer. In addition to this charge method, we install Water Miser caps to minimize water loss. This has been very successful for our off grid customers. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Aug 2, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote: > Our go to guy at Trojan, Ron Parades, is evidently gone. That’s what they > said at his old phone extension at Trojan. I left a message for tech support > there and have not heard back as of yet. > > Is there another Trojan Tech person to specifically ask for now? And is > there one on this list helping out as Ron did previously? > > I have a question on the Trojan RE Series charging voltage settings. I know > the specific gravity is lower on this series and the bulk charge voltage is > correspondingly lower than the old L-16’s. > > I have an off grid system for a remote home where the client is only there > from June through October. He has 1,560 Watts of solar and a new battery bank > rated at 2,220 AH at 12 volts (12 L-16 RE-2V batteries). > That is a charge rate in the C/20 range. The homeowner uses the system > reasonable hard when they are there but during the winter the load is only > 15AH per day for a low voltage security system. > > He has previously serviced his Rolls CH-375’s (1,400AH with 450 Watts of PV > on that system, about a C/33 rate) in October before leaving for 7 months and > has not had a problem with the battery electrolyte boiling off too much over > that time period. He got 10 years out of the Rolls batteries using it in this > way. The charge voltage for that system was 14.6 through a Solar Boost 50. > > The new system will have 1,110 Watts charging through a Out Back FM 80 > alongside the original array on the Solar Boost for the total of 1,560 Watts > of PV. > > I am thinking of charging at 14.6 Bulk with a two hour absorption time period > in the summer and then changing it for the 7 month period when the system is > lightly used. > > My question is, how low should I set the two charge controllers for > winter/spring use to minimize water consumption? I’m thinking of 14.2 or 14.3 > Volts, with a reduced absorption time of one hour. > And what should the float voltage setting be? The batteries are in a basement > that is kept at about 55 degrees. There is temperature compensation on the > battery charging. > > Thank you, > > David Palumbo > Independent Power LLC > 462 Solar Way Drive > Hyde Park, VT 05655 > www.independentpowerllc.com > NABCEP Certified PV Installer > Vermont Solar Partner > 23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] shatterproof PV (Durable Uni-Solar)
They were very durable. A few years ago an RV customer had a US64 propped up on the back bumper. They forgot about it and backed up the motorhome to reposition, driving all 30,000 pounds over the module. Flattened and covered with deep rock dents and a puncture, it still works well. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 27, 2011, at 9:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote: > My mistake, I just found a spec sheet on the Unisolar 64, and it specifically > advertises "No glass" and "unbreakable". I worked on systems with them > before, but never sold them, so I assumed the textured top surface was > tempered glass all these years. > Many pardons, > > Ray > > On 7/27/2011 9:21 PM, Carl Emerson wrote: >> >> Hi Guys, >> >> The discontinued Unisolar US64 did not have any glass on the face. >> >> A great product, a shame they stopped manufacture. >> >> Carl Emerson >> Free Power Co. >> Web www.freepower.co.nz >> >> >> Hi Marco; >> >> Regular modules are designed to take quite an impact. I recall one >> manufacturer that fired 1" ice balls with an air cannon at their modules, >> and then let visitors throw baseballs at them. It seems the foul balls would >> be at a lower velocity than a person could throw, but I don't know. >> Also the Unisolar 64 module has a glass face, so I just don't know of a >> framed module without glass. >> Possibly you could add a sheet of Lexan (polycarbonate, very tough and >> transparent) over the top of the array. I would think the losses would be >> less than 10%. >> http://www.modernplastics.com/lexan.html >> Home Depot sells a corrugated polycarbonate clear roofing panel that could >> possibly be attached over the top of the module. >> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100049922/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 >> I've run over it, stomped it, dropped tools on it, it pops right out, no >> cracking. >> >> Ray >> >> On 7/26/2011 10:58 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: >> I’m looking to install a 10-20 kW system on a roof that’s going to be >> getting falling foul balls from a nearby baseball field. >> >> The roof is not appropriate for any of the Uni-Solar peel-n-stick products. >> >> Any recommendations for anything else out there that does not have a glass >> glazing?Hi Marco >> >> Thanks, >> marco >> >> >> Marco Mangelsdorf, President >> 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 >> Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 >> (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile >> www.provision-solar.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Options & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar
We sold tons of the 62 and 64 watt framed modules. If any were available, I would have bought them years ago after they canceled production. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:51 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: > OK, I guess that it had to happen someday. I call Uni-Solar in Michigan for > some basic product info only to be told that their sales dept. does not take > any phone calls, that any inquiries have to be done on-line. Being in the > customer service myself, like pretty much all of us, it is beyond belief that > any company would take this “we refuse to talk to you directly” approach. > Brilliant move, corporate people at Uni-Solar. Refuse to speak to possible > customers. OK, rant off. > > I’m looking for 10-20 kW worth of the Uni-Solar 64-watt framed a-Si modules. > From what I can tell, Uni-Solar doesn’t make them anymore. Anyone know > whether there are any to be had somewhere? > > I need a non-glass, framed product. > > Thanks, > marco > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MMS inverter / Honda 3000i charger problems
Hi Dan, If you have not made ANY changes to the inverter and it operates fine with the 1000 watt, it must be the Honda 3000 output. The reliability of Magnum has been consistent and outstanding so I doubt it is the problem. I have seen them fault out on over frequency, over voltage and under voltage but always return to normal operation after the power quality is within spec. Bottom line is I would not be looking at the Magnum as the problem UNLESS a parameter or wiring was changed. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:56 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Hello esteemed Wrenches, from the wilds of British Columbia.. > > I'm in a bit of a pickle. Brand new Magnum MMS1012 inverter/charger install. > 4 x T105, 12v system. > > Inverter side works fine. Charger side works fine too, from a Honda 1000i. > But plug it into the Honda 3000i (also brand new) and I get an "AC Overload > Fault" (that is with NOTHING hooked to the AC inverter outputs...stubbed off > wires) --I just called Magnum tech support on the satphone and they said > that's because the power quality does not meet their specs. I'm measuring > 125vac RMS off the honda 3000i, Hz is around 2.2khz (ripple I assumenot a > fancy DC clamp meter, Tenma, as it can be dunked in the river at any time > during transport -- 2 mile canoe trip, then 4 mile backpack trip to the site, > after the 150 mile floatplane trip) > > While Magnum tech support was friendly and helpful, their suggestion of > having the brand new Honda 3000i checked and serviced involves a helicopter > and float plane at a cost of about $6k. The Honda 1000i that actually works > with this Magnum MMS is headed down to another camp. > > Any ideas? My Plan B is to fly in a dedicated 3-stage solid state battery > charger from xantrex or iota next month and leave detailed instructions for > the novices here to install it..I head down by canoe tomorrow to shore > things up , and then backpack / canoe back up here and fly out in 7 days. > Leave the charger side of the Magnum MMS unhooked.how do I explain that > to my client exactly? > > I just DO NOT GET IT. These are all brand new Honda i-series generators. > Since we are all clouds and rain right now, I'm on interent via an identical > Magnum MMS 1012 and a Honda 2000i here at the main camp, has worked like a > charm for over a year now. The computers and internet do not even so much as > fart during a gen/inverter transfer, even when on the sat phone. The 3000i > down there at the other camp in question has been working fine on all loads > for a month before this new installeverything from power tools to lights > to radio/gps/satphone chargers to laptops to boom boxes. > > Why is this 3000i causing trouble? Or is it some kind of new MMS inverter > software? Wish I had time to switch this Magnum gear around between camps. > But even an MMS is damned heavy when you have to carry it 4 miles in a > backpack..and any Honda over 1kw is impossible and needs a heli. > > In fact, the gentleman who 3 days ago had to carry the MMS1012 4 miles in > his backpack through clouds of mosquitos, wading through rivers and swamps, > wanted a word with Magnum tech support too today. His name is Mark. I > wouldn't let him on the phone with Magnum. I only had to carry a backpack > full of breaker boxes, which are relatively light in weight, which puts me in > a relatively good mood. His mood was not so great. > > All suggestions appreciated, as always, and thanks in advance. > > Dan Fink ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Why I sell China made batteries
Hey Bob-O, I agree. I primarily promote US made goods. In our retail store we sell Trojan, Crown, Deka, Sun Xtender, Lifeline, Rolls and US Battery...and now, one from China. For over two years RV customers would come in looking for a competitive quote for the Fullriver battery because that is what a major competitor sells. When I would tell them, "No, we don't sell the China made batteries but we do have several high quality US made batteries... and they only cost $70 more for EACH BATTERY. BTW, they don't have as good a warranty", I would loose that customer. Not only would I loose the battery sale but they were usually looking for a complete PV solar and inverter package to be installed. $6000 just walked out the door. I did not get the chance to sell any other US made parts and equipment that I choose to stock. The customer went back to XYZ Quartzsite solar store and bought a whole RV load of cheap China crap that will need replacing soon. Also the installation is likely to be a rolling fire hazard. So I did some investigating and found that the Fullriver is one of those rare, very well made, China products. Did I cave in and sell out the USA? Now that you know my position I'll let you decide. Life's a bitch sometimes. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Jun 29, 2011, at 11:08 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: > Need we mention here that Fullriver batteries are made in China as are so > many of the PVs flooding the market these days? Honestly folks, we are > killing our own industry. > Hark ye back to the words of the Prophet Pogo: "We have met the enemy and he > is us." > Bob-O > > > On Jun 29, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems > wrote: > > Hello William, > > We had a great first year sales with Fullriver. It is still too soon for me > to have a proficient opinion on them, but I really like the quality and > performance so far. The M8 threaded insert in Fullriver (and Lifeline) have > never given us any trouble but you must pay attention to the torque value. > Available in 2 and 6 volt. BTW, you can remove the Fullriver brass terminal > to lower the height of your connection if needed. > > The MK are made by Deka so you might check with them for a different terminal > config. > > Terminal torque guide: > http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/Terminaltorque.pdf > > Larry Crutcher > Starlight Solar Power Systems > 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 > Yuma, AZ 85367 > > la...@starlightsolar.com > (928) 342-9103 > > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sealed L-16 size batteries / battery terminals
Hello William, We had a great first year sales with Fullriver. It is still too soon for me to have a proficient opinion on them, but I really like the quality and performance so far. The M8 threaded insert in Fullriver (and Lifeline) have never given us any trouble but you must pay attention to the torque value. Available in 2 and 6 volt. BTW, you can remove the Fullriver brass terminal to lower the height of your connection if needed. The MK are made by Deka so you might check with them for a different terminal config. Terminal torque guide: http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/Terminaltorque.pdf Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On Jun 27, 2011, at 3:33 PM, William Miller wrote: > Colleagues > > I need to replace batteries for a customer. They have Trojan L-16 batteries > in an infrequently occupied vacation home. Maintenance has been an issue due > to the infrequency in which the customer is on site. I think VRLA batteries > are indicated. > > The enclosure is built for L-16 size batteries so it would be ideal to find > VRLA batteries the same size. I find that Fullriver and US Battery offer > batteries that meet the size specification. Do any of you have experience > with these batteries? > > I notice that Trojan and MK have abandoned the threaded stud connections in > favor of flags. This makes sense as we have seen some studs pull out. The > Fullriver and US Battery have the dual threaded stud / automotive terminals. > Have any of you had similar failures with the threaded studs? > > Thanks in advance, > > William > > > > William Miller > Miller Solar > Voice :805-438-5600 > email: will...@millersolar.com > http://millersolar.com > License No. C-10-773985 > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Kyocera followup
Hi Allan, Personally I have never understood their business model. I have tried for 9 years to open an account with Kyocera and have always been told, "we are not accepting new dealers"... blah, blah, blah. Even though we have a retail store that sells dozens of items they stock and we are right in their back yard, I can't buy from them. Now they are drumming up business. That's just odd. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On Jun 8, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: > Wrenches, > A year ago there was a thread here about Kyocera suddenly canceling orders > and dropping dealers. We weren't affected, as Kyocera has never been more > than a minor supplier since Photocomm/Golden Genesis days. But I was recently > cold-contacted by their new sales rep for our region, seeking to drum up > possible business. I responded by inquiring about this issue. In my opinion, > his response was pretty honest and direct, so when I called yesterday about a > few small 12V modules, I asked if I could share it with the list, and he > welcomed it. > Allan > > Allan Sindelar > al...@positiveenergysolar.com > NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer > NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional > New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician > Positive Energy, Inc. > 3201 Calle Marie > Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 > 505 424-1112 > www.positiveenergysolar.com > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison, Why a single string?
Hi boB, We know that current will flow through the lowest resistive path. In a perfect world, the resistance from end to end of a battery string will be identical. Real world conditions show that one or more cells have a slightly higher internal resistance. Add to that the imperfect terminal crimp, improper torque at battery terminal, and perhaps terminal corrosion and we now have paths of differing resistance. The parallel strings have an unequal distribution of current and ergo undercharged cells. These cells retain a small amount of amorphous lead sulphate that, without correction, will begin to crystalize. We all know what will happen over time. Granted, this can be prevented by the proper knowledge and attention but I see far too many failures from neglect and/or lack of understanding. My experience comes from 10 years of working with hundreds of small 12 volt systems with 2 to 6 parallel strings of batteries. In our shop we often see 2 to 3 year old battery banks that are damaged and I believe this is a contributing factor. It is often too late by the time the problem is discovered. So, my opinion is to reduce this possibility by decreasing the parallel paths whenever possible. More strings of a given size battery means less stress per string. But, if you decrease strings you are normally increasing cell size to maintain the capacity so this should not be an issue. Battery balancing is a great idea. I would like to see an active system for shunting current on a string to keep an equal current across all strings. I know this is done in the EV business. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On May 31, 2011, at 11:16 PM, boB Gudgel wrote: > > > OK, I've been hearing for years now that one battery string is best and maybe > two but no more should be used. > > What is the reason for this fear ???What is the experience with multiple > strings in parallel ?? > > If it is because of current sharing of the strings, that shouldn't be an > insurmountable problem if the wiring is done right. > > If it has to do with the possibility of fire, which Darryl mentioned, seems > that series string fuses could mitigate the possibility of that issue, if > because of shorted cells, just like PV combiners. > > Or maybe it has to do with the trouble of getting into the middle of a pile > of batteries ? Use battery boxes ? > > The strings are in parallel and so they all get the same voltage, > theoretically anyway if the connections are good. > > I would think that the more strings, the LESS stress on individual batteries, > not more. The current in each battery should be less than it would be I > would think. > > So what is the real experience ?? > > Is a battery balancer the answer ?? > > Thanks, > boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison
Oops! Guess I should have read all the posts before I reply;->
Larry Crutcher
On May 31, 2011, at 5:23 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote:
> I think the verdict is 12 - Rolls 2-YS-31 2430 AH @ 20 HR (one string) and
> one dry spare in storage is the best case scenario!
>
> Wayne Irwin, EE
> Director of Engineering
> Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
> State Licensed Solar Contractor
> License # CVC56695
> wa...@pureenergysolar.com
> http://pureenergysolar.com
> 352 377-6527 Office
> 352 336-3299 Fax
> 352 316-1637 Cell
> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not
> the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or
> distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and
> delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.
>
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:16:56 -0600
> From: al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison
>
> Tom,
> Yes, but if you use individual 2V cells, you can pull one failed cell out of
> the string and get by just fine by adjusting setpoints down by 8% (11/12ths).
> You'll lose 8% of capacity until a cell is replaced; or, if the failed cell
> is the first to go at end-of-life, just live with the remaining 22V bank
> while collecting funds for the replacement set ("You have been setting aside
> some money each year for that set, haven't you?").
>
> Using two strings is fine, but if the smaller strings are made up of 4V or 6V
> cases, you no longer can remove just one cell. Rather, you must disconnect
> one string and live on 50% capacity (or 67% with two out of three strings)
> until a replacement is secured.
>
> Based on the above, I'd usually go with a single string of the best batteries
> I can find. Personally, I like what Chris Worcester wrote:
> My one string of 1476 AH IBE 2 V cells went 19 years before retiring them to
> a neighbor’s off grid system, where they are now working. One string has my
> vote!
> as I just put that exact size of IBE 2V cells in my own home. Here's hoping I
> get another 18 years and 10 months out of them.
> Allan
>
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>
> On 5/31/2011 5:36 PM, Tom Elliot wrote:
> From a reliability standpoint I would never want to bet the farm on one
> string. All it takes is the failure of one cell and the system is useless
> until it is replaced. Three strings means a cell failure only reduces
> capacity by 33% not 100%. I’ve always thought in off-grid systems it is a
> good idea to build in as much redundancy as possible whenever possible. Oh,
> and always use a buss bar system with multiple strings, it makes for a far
> more stable system with less stress on the batteries.
>
> Tom
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt Battery Bank comparison
Wayne, Whenever possible, always design a battery bank for a single series string. Parallel strings require more attention and increase the probability of early failure due to unequal charging. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 On May 31, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Wayne Irwin wrote: > Hello Esteemed Battery Gurus, > > Which of the following do you believe is the better 24 V battery bank? > > A) 13 - Rolls 2-YS-31 2430 AH @ 20 HR (one string) > > or > > B) 9 - Rolls 8-CS-25P 820 AH @ 20 HR (3 strings of 3) > > Thank you in advance for your input! > > > Wayne Irwin, EE > Director of Engineering > Pure Energy Solar International Inc. > State Licensed Solar Contractor > License # CVC56695 > wa...@pureenergysolar.com > http://pureenergysolar.com > 352 377-6527 Office > 352 336-3299 Fax > 352 316-1637 Cell > The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not > the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or > distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and > delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] 12 volt LED flood lights for billboards
Greetings Wrenches, I'm working on a PV solar powered billboard project. Does anyone have experience with 30 to 50 watt LED flood lights, IP65 rated? Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Lifeline Battery scammer...Confirmed
Hi Wrenches, Beware of the business dealings of a person trying to order large quantity of Lifeline GPL-6CT batteries. The names he may be operating under are Phoinix Systems or Chronos Technologies and going by the name Alexander or Dan Ulseth. After trying to order 50 batteries from us, he sent an address to me for shipment of: 330 N Marine Ave., Wilmington, CA 90744. According to a reliable source, he owes a distributor $20,000, writes bad checks and uses credit cards that do not go through. Let the seller beware. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems 11871 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 la...@starlightsolar.com (928) 342-9103 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Suntech 175W 24V Module
Davis, I have one in stock. Call me. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 - Original Message - From: Davis Terrell To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 4:58 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Suntech 175W 24V Module Wrenches, I am looking for one Suntech 175 24V module to match an existing array. Please contact me if you know where one might be found. Thanks, Davis TerrellProject ManagerGreen Earth energyda...@mckernongroup.comoffice: (802) 247-1200cell: (802) 989-1661 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Tiny load problem
Hi Bob, I run into this issue nearly every week and the solution is the same every time: install a small dedicated inverter. CPAP machines and cell phone chargers work just fine with modified square wave inverters but for only $100 you can have a 300 watt sine wave inverter. I'd recommend sine wave since many small load items like battery chargers, electric blanket control, electric toothbrush, etc., fail with MSW inverters. Contact me off list if you don't have a resource for small 12, 24 and 48 volt inverters. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store & Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: bob To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:58 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Tiny load problem I am sizing a system that will have dual inverters to shorten generator charging in the winter and enough solar to charge the rest of the time. Here's the problem, the inverter will not be able to get into sleep mode at night. There are 2 cell chargers and a "cpap" machine having to run all night. It only totals 26 watts, has anyone found a better way to do this without having to keep an inverter awake to produce 26 watts? I would like to dedicate a Morningstar 300 watt inverter for the job but the system is 24 volts and Morningstar has no plans to make one in 24 volts. Anyone got any other ideas, or am I best to just deal with it? Thanks, Bob ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] KD135 source?
Are you looking for grid tie or the J-box? I have some of the J-box 135's. Just FYI, the 135's are a larger module at 59.1 x 26.3. The discontinued 120's, 125's and 130's were all 56.1 x 25.7. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store & Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] KD135 source? Wrenches, A distributor told me today that Kyocera is currently out of KD135s, backordered until next month. With relatively few good 12V modules available these days, anyone know of a good distributor with KC125, KC130, or KD135s in current stock? Thank you, Allan --
Re: [RE-wrenches] windenergy7
Hi Kirk, There are far too many words needed to describe the problems associated with a roof mounted system like this. I will summarize it: Today is April 1st (but don't you be fooled)!! Here's a list of all kinds of DIY, tinkerers dreams and wishful thinking systems. http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Home_Generation:Wind_Turbine Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store & Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: Kirk Herander, VSE To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:57 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] windenergy7 Check this out: this company claims to have patented a mounting system which will allow their 1.4kw machine (or multiples thereof) to be mounted on a roof ridge. I cannot find a power curve of their product on their website, amongst other things. Opinions, experiences please, thanks. www.windenergy7.com . Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
Hi Ray and Drake, Ray, I'm not sure I follow your statement that MPPT does not do much for a battery. With today's higher voltage modules, there can be a dramatic improvement in the amount of power reaching the battery by using MPPT charge circuits. Simply put, MPPT circuits convert all the available PV power (remember power is expressed as watts or the ability to do work) into current and voltage. The higher the differential between battery and array voltage, the more current that can be produced by MPPT circuits. A non-MPPT circuit simply connects the battery to the PV array thus pulling down the operating voltage and wasting power. Consider a single Evergreen 205 watt module. The Vmp is 18.2 volts and Imp is 11.4 amps. If you use a non-mppt controller like the old C-40, the operating voltage of the module will be just above battery voltage. If the battery is at 12.4 volts, you will only capture about 145 watts of the available power. The module can do 205 watts of work so you are wasting 30% of the power. As battery voltage rises and PV modules heat up, the difference will decrease but there will most always be a benefit with well designed MPPT circuits. So, Drake, you are wise to use MPPT if there is sufficient differential voltage. Since it is a percentage of improvement, the larger the PV array, the greater the benefit. A PWM controller is a method of controlling voltage, not pulsing off sulfation. When a battery reaches 100% SoC then the lead sulphate has been recombined into lead, lead dioxide and sulphuric acid. There are pulsing circuits available but the PWM in a charge controller does not perform that function. So, why is PV power an excellent battery charger? Because it uses Starlight power! But you knew that. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store & Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: "R Ray Walters" To: "RE-wrenches" Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger > MPPT doesn't really do that much for the battery, it just makes the PV modules more effective. > The real magic is: > A) the 3 stage charging (compared to traditional single stage AC chargers) > B) Temperature compensation > C) PWM that helps pulse off sulfation > D) Slower charge rates let batteries charge more fully without damage from overheating. > > R. Walters > r...@solarray.com > Solar Engineer > > > > > On Mar 24, 2010, at 7:04 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me why PV is considered an excellent battery charger? I > > think it is, only after the addition of a MPPT charge control. Otherwise, > > the battery drags the PV voltage below Vmp. > > > > One of the NABCEP objectives for the entry level class is to explain why > > PV modules make excellent battery chargers and show this through the IV > > curve. > > > > Thank you, > > > > Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] MC4's in stock (missing MC4)
I have 80 each MC4's available. PV-KST4/6II MALE6 - 9 mm gland range and 12 - 10 AWG conductor range PV-KST4/6II FEM6 - 9 mm gland range and 12 - 10 AWG conductor range Contact me off list. la...@starlightsolar.com Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store & Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: Nick Soleil To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Missing MC4 Connectors? MultiContact told me that the equipment used to manufacture the Gen4 MC connectors in Switzerland is broken, and they are ~16 weeks backlogged. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 -- From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 5:30:42 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Missing MC4 Connectors? And it does not help that MC connectors are only one of several types, such as Tyco and others. .. Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: William Miller To: jry...@netscape.com ; RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Missing MC4 Connectors? Jeff: This is not the first time this has happened. QC problems left us without the bulkhead MC connectors for 2 months some time ago. I've ranted before about requiring specialized hardware. The practice increases costs and restricts supply. I prefer the gold old days where commonly available NMLT and THWN were the only materials required. Top down procedures have made this obsolete, alas... There are third party options now. Have you tried Wieland Electric? Good luck. William Miller At 06:56 PM 3/24/2010, you wrote: We normally keep a good supply of pre-made module MC4 M/F cables in stock, but several recent large projects really lowered our inventory. No problem, I will just call our suppliers and order more. Wrong! Am I the last installer on earth to find out there are no more MC4 connectors? After checking into this I heard something about a "run" on these conenctors due to problems with supplier, but don't really know the story. Does anybody know what is going on - is this a 2 week delay type problem, or are we all going to have multiple $50,000.00 jobs on hold for months while we wait for a handfull of $4 connectors? Jeff Yago DTI Solar _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2768 - Release Date: 03/24/10 12:33:00 Please note new e-mail address and domain: William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List r
