Re: [RE-wrenches] Optics

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

At Intersolar (January) San Diego, I heard Bigbatterybox.com purchased
Outback. Since then, I've heard it may be Signature Solar. I am unsure who
purchased them, but with them being so close to Signature Solar, that makes
sense. I'm not sure who purchased them, but they have been asleep at the
wheel since then. They can't sell any product in Canada because they have
let their CSA certificates lapse.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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On Mon, May 20, 2024 at 4:45 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> So here is the scoop, I got it that outback is moving to Dallas and will
> still be a premium product, and yes the optics shut down had something to
> do with the sale. Everyone hold on as they say they have new products at
> SPI this fall. Keep your fingers crossed and let's all wait patiently.
> Fun times
>
> On Sun, May 19, 2024, 10:53 AM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I started poking through EnerSys's (The most recent owner of Outback) SEC
>> filings in hopes to find who the new buyer is. I found nothing related to
>> the sale but found this in their most recent quarterly report :
>>
>> On November 8, 2023, the Company's Board of Directors approved a plan to
>> stop production and operations of residential renewable energy products,
>> which include our OutBack and Mojave brands. Management determined that
>> residential renewable energy products no longer fit with the company’s core
>> strategy and resources will be better allocated toward commercial energy
>> solutions for enterprise customers. The Company currently estimates that
>> the total charges for these actions will amount to $23.5 million relating
>> primarily to $22.6 million in non-cash charges primarily including
>> inventory and an indefinite-lived intangible asset write-offs and $0.9
>> million in cash charges including employee severance and retention
>> payments. The plan is expected to be completed in fiscal 2024. During the
>> nine months of fiscal 2024, the Company recorded non-cash charges totaling
>> $6.6 million primarily related to indefinite-lived intangible asset
>> write-off and cash charges of $0.4 million related to severance costs. The
>> Company also recorded a non-cash write off relating to inventories of $16.1
>> million, which was reported in cost of goods sold.
>>
>> To say I am curious about what is going on is an understatement.
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> Lou Russo
>> Owner
>> l...@spreesolarsystems.com
>> 808 345 6762
>> Spree Solar Systems LLC
>> CT-34322
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, May 19, 2024 at 2:21 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with you William
>>>
>>> While there could be all sorts of valid reasons for the downtime.
>>>
>>> What’s not acceptable is the lack of communication and notification that
>>> it was going to happen or had happened.
>>>
>>> If they do have new owners they are not starting well.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 18, 2024, at 9:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am sure you are all acutely aware, but this is not a trivial matter.
>>> We depend on Optics for alerts and trouble shooting.  We rely on Optics for
>>> the history it records to analyze trends and evaluate production and
>>> consumption. I doubt the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] speaking of batteries

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Even with LFP, mixing different-age batteries is still not the best idea.
Even if using closed-loop communication, they can get out of balance pretty
quickly, which will lead to all kinds of BMS issues.

One of the reasons I suggest using a main positive and negative bus with
breakers: You can easily isolate the parallel strings and charge them
independently to ensure they stay balanced.

Personally, anything older than six months' difference, I would still plan
on balancing every 4-6 months. The harder they work them, the more often
they will need to be balanced.




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
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On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 2:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All
>
> Speaking of batteries  I wonder what you all make of this.
>
> I was reading the Fortress battery manual and it says they don’t recommend
> adding new lithium batteries to older lithium batteries if the age is over
> 1 year difference.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> thanks
> jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied Radian Force Discharge

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Yes, Grid Zero would work, but the customer wouldn't be selling power to
the utility.   You could program the Radan to sell more power by lowering
the sell voltage. I would get aggressive with it for at least 20-30 cycles
to see if you can recover some capacity. Ideally, to recover lost capacity
from lead batteries, you want to do 50-80% cycling for at least 5-10
cycles.

I would be cautious about HBX mode, its issue, and why this mode should
have died with the old Trace Eng inverters... HBX mode tends to kill
battery banks if left there too long or you are not getting the battery to
100%. The problem with HBX mode is that there is no way to control absorb
timers, so the batteries get to the 80-85% range but never get to full; if
the batteries are lead, this is going to create sulfation problems, and if
AGM will end up in severe swelling.If I remember correctly, you can
adjust the delay timer for HBX, which should be equal to the programmed
Absrob timers, but I don't know if they killed this in the new firmware.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 1:53 PM Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> You can do it in one of several easy ways.
>
> HPX mode on the Mate. High Battery transfer. When the battery voltage
> and/or SOC is above the setpoint drop the grid. When the battery voltage or
> state of charge goes below the setpoint pick up the grid. This case the
> Mate  is doing the driving.
>
> Also available is Grid Zero mode where the inserter decides to zero the
> loads based on battery voltage and AC amp load. Then you would set the
> ReBulk set point on the inverter charger to trigger charging the batteries
> instead of zero AC loads.
>
> The third choice is to program something called FlexTime where you set the
> schedule of the AC input mode from grid tide to red zero or off grid, etc.
>
> It’s the system is on OpticsRE, you can adjust the settings fine-tune to
> get the best performance out of those Northstar batteries.
>
> I just decommissioned a 36 battery group of Northstar batteries after 13
> years and most of them are still viable.
>
> As a precaution, For AC coupling, I also install a high battery AUX port
> controlled relay that drops the AC coupling input circuit.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Maverick
>
> Maverick Brown
> Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
> Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
>  • Solar Commander Remote Power
>  • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection
> maver...@mavericksolar.com
> 512-460-9825
>
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi All,
>
> I have an AC coupled Radian that is used to back up certain loads when the
> grid is down. It is paired with the Northstar Blue (Outback) batteries. The
> system sits in float nearly all the time. During a recent grid outage, the
> batteries had less than half the capacity that I would have expected, and
> they are only about 3.5 years old with very few cycles on them.
>
> I tried to talk to Outback about it, which seems to not be possible
> anymore. I did talk to Northstar, and they recommend not leaving the
> batteries in float all the time.
>
> I am wondering if anyone knows of a way to force the Radian to
> automatically discharge the batteries to a certain voltage ideally once a
> week, but could do daily. Essentially, I would like to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] midnite new inverter

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Good Morning Wrenches...

When it comes to lead batteries, just be cautious of the all-in-ones and
some of the hybrid inverters.

Most of these inverters were not designed for Lead batteries and will
struggle to charge them, resulting in sulfation (undercharging) issues.
Eventually, this will lead to swelling of VRLA or excessive gassing on
Flooded Batteries. Unfortunately, many of the "Hybrid" or "All-in-One"
inverters released in the past 5-8 years are tailored more to
lithium-chemistry batteries. I can't tell you how many battery banks have
been cooked over the past couple of years due to the inability to control
charging settings.

If you can't control the Bulk/Absorb Voltage and Time, as well as the end
amps termination setpoints, you will generally struggle to get and keep a
Lead-Acid battery charged regardless of the battery you are using.

I looked at the Midnite site and I don't see a user manual yet,  once it's
posted I'll take a look and see if it's compatible for Rolls Batteries,
I'm pretty sure it will as Midnight has been asking battery charging
questions the last couple of years.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 7:29 AM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Can you explain what changes the eg4 18 inverter has vs the Envy as to LA
> programming?
>
> To me the Envy has a big advantage due to it having AGS warm up/cool down
> that the EG4 does not.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2024, at 7:49 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> John,
> If you are thinking of pairing the Envy with lead-acid batteries, I would
> strongly suggest not doing it. Even though Fortress sales advertises the
> Envy to be compatible with lead-acid, after trying it in my off-grid home,
> I would emphatically say that it is not. The programming is inadequate, to
> put it kindly. And their support really doesn't have a clue about lead-acid
> - Fortress support literally said that they don't recommend pairing the
> Envy with l-a. However, I don't have an opinion about how it does with
> closed loop Li batteries.
> I did recently install an EG4 18k system, off-grid, with the client's
> knowledge that this was a bit of an experiment for me. Both the Envy and
> the EG4 are made by LuxPower and have been, to date, physically and
> programmatically almost identical. I had stayed away from EG4 since it
> seemed to be primarily aimed at the DIY market. However, the 18k appears to
> be a serious contender so far, although this installation is a fairly low
> stress situation. I've been fairly impressed with the system.   While this
> 18k is paired with EG4 Lithium batteries, EG4 has been making adjustments
> to the firmware to make it much more friendly to lead-acid. If you decide
> to go this route, check with EG4 (installer support - ask for Jarrett or
> Colt) to see where they are at with upgrading the firmware.
> I am also eagerly awaiting Midnite's AIO entry...
>
> Howie
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 9:02 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Time will tell where the failure modes are.   I still don't like all the
>> eggs in one basket. Do you have to send the units back for repair?  Had
>> enough of that with Trace SW series inverters..
>> For off grid, I'll stick to the tried and true for now.  For Grid tie it
>> is 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Mate3s error vs. event log

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

The charge parameters depends on the FNDC settings, so yes, it comes from
the FNDC but is triggered by the combination of the Mate or Mate3, again
depending on the FNDC Settings: There are three "And/Or" Statements.So,
to meet charge parameters, you must satisfy the following.

Statement 1
End Amps
And
Para Met Voltage
And
Para Met Time

If these are met, and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that
the parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the
past...

BCF%

If set to, say, 95%, When you remove 100 amps and charge back 105 Amps.  If
this is met, and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that the
parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the past...

Absorb Timer Met

If the charge controllers or inverter meet the absorb timers as
programmed,  and there is a 60-second discharge, the Mate shows that the
parameters were met and resets the SOC to 100% 60 seconds in the past...

I don't know why it displays a flashing LED. That is beyond my knowledge; I
have never seen this, but it might be related to its setup or operation
mode.

As for Lones, he retired (6 Months +) quite some time ago. I don't know who
is now in charge of the wrenches list at Outback. With the recent Outback
developments, I'd be surprised if they have a tech even looking at these
emails.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Apr 3, 2024 at 10:03 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Greetings Kirk,
>
> It is my understanding that the “charged parms met” comes from the FNDC
> since that is the component measuring the current and going by those
> guidelines in the “Battery Setup” menu assigned to the FNDC port. This
> would seem like a reasonable test and could be done remotely through
> Opticsre without requiring a trip to the site as well. Perhaps Lones can
> comment on this strategy?
>
> Sometimes the smallest insignificant details can trigger a client
> regardless of how well we did with the rest of the system. I feel for you!
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2024, at 12:42 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Are you saying that this "charged parms met" message is actually coming
> from the Flexnet? I do have a flexnet in this system. The event log states
> the originating port to be "M", as from the Mate3s itself.
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 1:49 AM Nick A Lucchese via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Kirk,
>>
>> Does the client rely on the fully charged indicator anyway? Perhaps
>> defeat some of the settings that will satisfy the targets of the Flexnet?
>> Maybe set the “charged voltage” to something a few volts higher than your
>> absorption set point and/or take the timer all the way up to 240 minutes?
>> It’s definitely frustrating that some clients are scared to press any
>> buttons on the Mate, even that Events button can intimidate apparently!
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Apr 1, 2024, at 12:08 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I have a customer with a OB Radian GS8048A, grid tied, which logs a
>> "charged parms met" message regularly. When it does, the event log LED on
>> the 3s starts blinking. My customer thinks it's an error, and calls me. I
>> Wish I could somehow defeat this event, and any non-error, from blinking
>> the event LED for everyone's sanity.
>>
>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electrolyte level measurement

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Here is my cheap version of a water-filling kit...

Get yourself a new weed sprayer from a hardware store 1-2 gallons will work
the best.

Cut the nozzle off to 8-10 inches in length (or whatever works for you) so
the water comes out as a stream instead of a spray.

Mark the Nozzle with colored electrical tape for the depth of the fill tube
+  1/4 to 1/2 an inch.  I would suggest the length of the fill tube + 1/2
an inch for Rolls batteries.)  For example, the Rolls L16's fill tube is 1
inch so I would make the mark 1.5 inches.

Now, when you go to fill your batteries, you line the mark up with the top
of the battery, and while looking into the cell, when the water level
touches the bottom of the nozzle, you shut off the flow and move to the
next cell.

Some people have attached a small LED light to the wand, but I use a
headlamp when working in a battery room.

Here is a link to one that I'd use...

https://www.amazon.com/Chapin-International-2-1-Gallon-Translucent/dp/B000E28UQU/ref=sr_1_4?crid=TEWUZPEEE5WX=1+gallon+
weed+sprayer
=1707149489=home-garden=1+gallon+wee%2Cgarden%2C250=1-4

One last thing... the sprayer must be new. You cannot use one that has
already had chemicals in it.   This is not perfect, but its easier than
using a funnel...



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 11:59 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> In spite of all of this talk about Li batteries, I still maintain a whole
> lot of flooded cells.  I have always struggled with getting accurate
> measurements of the electrolyte level.  Staring past a flashlight down into
> a cell looking with one eye through scratched safety glasses, it is hard to
> see just how high (or low) the level is.  I am cogitating on a few ideas to
> make this easier and more accurate, but in the meantime, what are your
> favorite tricks for this?
>
>
>
> TIA
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
1973...we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
 This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
the different chemistries that are out there.



On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>
> thanks
> jay
>
> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Chris;
>
> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
> "look".
>
> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>
> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>
> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Howie,
>
> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>
> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>
> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>
> Kindly,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general
>> is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not
>> be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but
>> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed
>> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently
>> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and
>> did not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
>> client had already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with
>> me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing
>> a system that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross
>> check the altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4 Equipment

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Becareful with the EG4s and  AGMs.   Last I checked the EG4s couldn't be
properly programmed to charge at a high enough voltage to properly charge
some of the heavier plated AGM.   Surrette and Full river AGMs need to be
charged at 58.8 temp compensated to -4mv/deg/c...

The EG4s like the Sol Arks and a ton of the Hybrid inverters aren't really
made to charge lead batteries in general... some you can make work, many
you can't.

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 10:06 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Surrette and Full river AGM's  Been berry berry good to me!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-02-17 9:43 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I fully agree that off grid solar has taken a major downturn. Once the
> equipment became software based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there are
> nice features available with these cyber enhanced systems, but the cost in
> reliability makes being energy independent off the grid hard to accomplish.
>
> There are good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone tried their new
> 120/240 split phase units? Are they stack-able yet?
>
> As far as batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead Head club, especially
> for off grid. That being said, lead acid batteries, especially AGMs have
> gotten really expensive and it seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
>
> What is the best AGM battery these days?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> We gave EG4 and Signature another chance after promises from their dealer
> oriented support department that we could expect better service from them.
> We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple months ago after only a few months.
> Lots and lots of communications with Signature and we still don't have a
> BMS or replacement battery. It's been a shit show with them. I think we are
> going to remove them and install 3rd party BMS's and find some use for
> them. Maybe donate them. We've only had luck with Schneider/Discover
> pairings in closed loop. A large system we did with Sol-Arks never really
> worked in Closed loop, despite Discover coming to the site. Most likely
> it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
> limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there have been some issues that are
> causing me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I just had a conversation this
> morning with a long time off-grid pro and he said the same thing. It used
> to be, we'd install a wet lead acid bank and then ten years would pass
> before hearing from the client when it was time for another bank. Sometimes
> fifteen years. Our call backs with systems over the last ten years, first
> with a decline in equipment quality and then the switch to Li are costing
> us too much money and causing a lot of heartburn for our clients. Rant Over
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've searched the archives for info pertaining to EG4 inverters and
> batteries. The comments have been mostly positive.  I have stayed away from
> EG4 until now in part, for the reason the Michael Morningstar suggested
> last June - that is, they seemed very oriented to the DIY market and not
> real serious contenders in the lasting marketplace. However, I was at RE+
> Boston this week and was quite surprised to see that the EG4 18k inverter
> is, for all I could tell, identical to the Fortress Envy 12k, in both
> physical layout as well as menu structure. I have very limited experience
> with the Envy (having just installed my 1st one last week, in order to
> compare it to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't have any thoughts about it yet,
> except that the font on the screen is quite small and the opening screen is
> not as intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but that might just take familiarizing
> myself more to the Envy (and/or the EG4).
>
> My question is, for folks who have had either the Envy or the EG4
> inverters installed for a decent period of time, what is your current take
> on their functionality, durability, and for the EG4, the quality of
> support? Also, what experience have folks had similarly with the EG4 LLI
> batteries? I'm not unhappy with the Sol-Ark or in general the Fortress
> eVault Max battery, but there are some attractive things about the Envy and
> potentially the EG4 18k, and the price point and seemingly smart
> configuration of the EG4 LLI batteries are certainly eye-catching.
>
> I'm also currently starting to lean toward using Lithium batteries and
> inverters from the same manufacturer, as I'm growing weary of the
> mismatching firmware updates that are causing somewhat frequent issues
> between the 2 

Re: [RE-wrenches] rolls battery question

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

The three interconnects between the 2v cells are bolted.   If they are over
15 years they might be welded...

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 12:21 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Can anyone tell me off the top of their head if older Rolls
>
> 6CS 25PS
>
> Do they have welded or bolted internal connections?
>
> I have a site I’m going to, very remote that might have a bad cell or two
> and I’m just figuring out how I’m going to bypass the bad cells.
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd battery charging behavior with Outback inverters

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Good Morning Everyone,

The graphs look like something is bypassing the absorb timers.   I haven't
been at Outback for a long time now, but from my experience, this can be
caused by the FNDC, end amps programming of the FM Controllers,  or the
operating mode of the inverter.

On the FM Charge Controllers:

In the Advanced menus are the End Amps settings; this should be programmed
to about .5 to 1% of the battery bank capacity at the most.  If the absorb
timers are over 4 hours, I would defeat this setting altogether, especially
if they charge lead batteries.   The issue with this setting is most lead
manufacturers want the current going into the battery under charge to fall
to less than 2-3% for 60 mins.   The timer in the FM's is only 3 mins and
is not programmable.

On the FNDC:

Still, to this day, I find FNDC installations that are not correctly
programmed, even from experienced installers.  It does not help that the
FNDC was a very misunderstood product.

The FNDC has 5 Settings that Matter: Battery Capacity, End Amps, Parameters
Met Time, Parameters Met Voltage, and Battery Charge Factor%.

Battery Capascity = C20 Battery Capascity.
End Amp 2-3% of the C20 rate

The settings that trip up most are met voltage, Met Time, and BCF%.   The
Met time for FLA, AGM, and GEL should be 45 to 60 mins. For LFP, it should
be around 30 mins.   It could be 45 to 60 minutes if you have over three
parallel strings of LFP batteries. A bit longer will allow for better
balancing between strings.

Parameters Met Voltage should be one step under the target absorb voltage.
 So, if you charge 59.2, this should be set to 58.8.

As for the Mode of the inverter, if the inverter is attempting to support
or grid sell, these modes will shorten the charging and bypass the Absrob
timers depending on how low the battery voltage dropped and for how long.
 In the old days, this used to be on only the GT-version inverters; now,
it's present in all of them. It just depends on what mode the inverter is
programmed to operate in.

[image: image.png]

For a straight off-grid system, generator mode is the correct mode, but
it's been a while, and I would have to check the OB documentation as to
what mode to operate in.

Contact me offlist or call me, and maybe I can better explain it...

I do have an optics account (st...@surrette.com). If you invite me to view
your setup, I may be able to take a look and help find the setting(s)
causing this, but I would look first for the above-mentioned issues.

One last thing: it could be a failing battery cell or connection issue, as
this would also trigger end amps terminations early.  The problem with this
is you have a lot of installs doing the same thing, so this is a settings
issue rather than failing cells.

Hope this helps!

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 4:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William,
>
> This is a very timely question, I have been seeing the same thing.  I also
> don't allow any Flexnet interference in charging.  I went to investigate a
> site yesterday and figured this one out.
>
> It turned out that the Flexnet was uncalibrated by about 1V on the low
> side.  This was a Lithium site and so there was not significant absorb time
> and that 1 V is very significant.  The solar controller and Radian were
> calibrated properly so it looked on Optics as though 

Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Good Morning Wrenches,

AC-coupled systems are generally not pleasant to batteries of any type.  I
would not AC Couple any Valve Regulated Battery system as you are, in
essence, "overcharging" them at times, and this can and has led to battery
failures (usually overcharging and swelling) that all battery
manufacturers will not cover under warranty.Flooded batteries can take
this abuse a bit more, but this can still result in drying the batteries
out and corrosion or degradation of the negative plate due to heat.

Lithium batteries do not like this, but the BMS will shut off the charge to
the battery bank. It doesn't power off the battery but stops the excessive
charge to the battery, but these unloaded voltages on the input of the
battery can stress the BMS depending on how much voltage is seen.

Ideally, if you are AC coupling, it's better to use a system that tapers
charging and voltage depending on SOC, to do this you'll need closed loop
communication, with the inverter/charger so the battery can shut down or
slow charging depending on SOC.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Mon, Oct 30, 2023 at 8:53 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Thanks for contributing to this thread.  I did not realize it would create
> so much interest.  My main point is to establish a definition for
> AC-coupling, and I believe we do have consensus on that.  The next question
> to ask is AC-coupling a good thing?
>
>
>
> You make the point that BMS systems protect lithium batteries from
> damage.  They do so by shutting down, not correcting the problem.  But what
> good is a system that shuts down?  When that happens someone has to roll a
> truck to reset the system.  We should not design outages into our systems.
>
>
>
> I spoke at length this weekend with a very knowledgeable member of this
> forum (thank you, sir) about closed loop.  Their experience is that there
> were packet losses in the communications and when that occurred the system
> shut down.  I am going to set up my first closed loop today and I hope I do
> not have the same experience.
>
>
>
> Traditional charge controllers may seem “crude” but they operate on real,
> measured values of voltage and current, values that are at the core of
> battery care.  Modern charging systems seem to rely at least partially on
> sate of charge.  State of charge is a calculated value that is notorious
> for being inaccurate and drifting more so over time.  Every SOC scheme I
> know needs to be recalibrated frequently.  The recalibration requires
> hitting certain charge parameters and if you can’t hit those you don’t
> recalibrate.
>
>
>
> I assumed that a BMS system provided within a lithium battery assembly by
> the manufacturer would be accurate.  I spoke with a tech support person
> from a prominent LFP manufacturer at length recently and was told their BMS
> is not foolproof on calculating SOC.  I am not confident that any of them
> are.
>
>
>
> I am new to lithium battery systems.  It may be my inexperience talking,
> but it seems they incorporate a lot of complexity that may make them
> unreliable unless charged and discharged very carefully.  I do not believe
> AC-coupled charging is a good way to charge lithium batteries, or any
> battery.
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

That voltage I gave was assuming a 48-volt system...  Of course, this
voltage is lower on a 12-volt battery...

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:53 PM Steve Higgins  wrote:

> Some of these BMSs are not very tolerant of heavy loads...   the heavier
> load may have triggered the BMS to shut down and go into self-protect mode.
> It can take a few hours to days for voltage to recover. Isolate the battery
> from the parallel connections and give a few days of no load time to
> recover and reset.
>
> After that, use a regulated power supply and connect it to the battery to
> charge. You only need a slight current, usually less than ten amps.   Set
> the power supply up at the base voltage 54 to 56 volts.
>
> Last, supplying charge voltage on and off several times can wake up the
> BMS, but again, I would only try this with a regulated power supply.
>
> The bad news is they may have killed the BMS... once you do that, it's a
> hard sell for most manufacturers to cover under warranty.
>
> Good Luck...
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:42 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I would call Current Connected in Nevada.
>>
>> They handle SOKs for the US market and I have  found there tech support
>> to be knowledgeable and timely.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Buy another SOK battery so that doesn’t happen.
>>>
>>> Or maybe happens less
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Hello brain trust,
>>>
>>> Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums?  

Re: [RE-wrenches] SOK Batteries

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Some of these BMSs are not very tolerant of heavy loads...   the heavier
load may have triggered the BMS to shut down and go into self-protect mode.
It can take a few hours to days for voltage to recover. Isolate the battery
from the parallel connections and give a few days of no load time to
recover and reset.

After that, use a regulated power supply and connect it to the battery to
charge. You only need a slight current, usually less than ten amps.   Set
the power supply up at the base voltage 54 to 56 volts.

Last, supplying charge voltage on and off several times can wake up the
BMS, but again, I would only try this with a regulated power supply.

The bad news is they may have killed the BMS... once you do that, it's a
hard sell for most manufacturers to cover under warranty.

Good Luck...


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Oct 11, 2023 at 6:42 PM Lou Russo via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I would call Current Connected in Nevada.
>
> They handle SOKs for the US market and I have  found there tech support to
> be knowledgeable and timely.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 11, 2023, 2:06 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Buy another SOK battery so that doesn’t happen.
>>
>> Or maybe happens less
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Hello brain trust,
>>
>> Anyone have experience with SOK lithiums?  Here's my issue.  Client has a
>> tiny home and bought their system online (I know, run away...).  Whenever
>> they start a larger load (power tool, hair dryer) it pulls too much current
>> and causes the BMS to shut down the battery output.  Not necessarily a huge
>> issue, but I cannot get the app (ABC-BMS) to reset the batteries.  I log in
>> with the password and it gives me the reset option, but it will not allow
>> me to click OK.  Hooking up an external battery charger has been my only
>> successful reset solution.
>>
>> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kris
>>
>> Shine On!
>>
>> Kris Schmid
>> Legacy Solar, LLC
>> 137 West 1st Avenue
>> Luck, WI 54853
>> www.legacysolar.com
>> 715-653-4295
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
>> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] .5 C charge rate for LiFePO4

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

For Rolls/Surrette LFPs, .5 is the suggested max, but on a 130ah bank, 13
to 65 amps is acceptable. We'd like to see it around 20-40a.  Remember,
if you go with lower charge rates, this increases charge time, and if you
have batteries in parallel, having a bit higher rate gives you more time
for the absorb cycle to balance the bank, especially if it's an open-loop
comms system.   If open-loop and you have 2, 3, or 4 parallel strings, the
longer 30-60 mins absorb timers allow for better balancing between the
parallel strings.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 6:33 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jeremy,
>
> I think LiFePO can handle these high charge rates, but you don't have to
> provide them for battery health.  They are happy at lower C rates too.
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 6:41 AM Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Is it correct to size an PV array to provide .5C for a Lithium Iron bank?
>> 130Ah x .5 = 65
>> 65A = ~ 3.5kw PV DC
>> Seems overkill for one battery.
>> Any advice is appreciated.
>>
>>
>> Jeremy Rodriguez
>> Solar Installation / Design
>> All Solar, Inc.
>> 1453 M St.
>> Penrose Colorado 81240
>>
>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Yes, thanks, Darryl...   I did mean the C/2 or C/3 rate...


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 8:47 AM Starlight via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good
> example, Jay.
>
> We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed
> one mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power
> connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat
> doing so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded.
> Lower operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest
> set of LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2
> because the 10 kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing
> fine.  I do not have a way of measuring the current capacity but
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>>
>> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
>> pouch?
>>
>> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
>> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
>> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>>
>> Wondering what you all think and know
>>
>> Thx
>> Jay
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

For many LFP batteries, while some say you can charge at the C1 Rate, most
want you to charge at the C2 or C3 rate.

While you don't have to get them full all the time like lead, as long as
you are cycling regularly, it is still a good idea to get them to full
regularly.   Now if they are a backup system or not being cycled, they
should not be held to full all the time. This can accelerate damage to the
cells.

Where we see the major mistakes are the absorb timer settings.   Too many
people are setting the absorb timers too short, especially if they have
parallel modules and are not running closed-loop communications, or the
batteries can't communicate with each other or the chargers.

In these cases where you have 2,3,4... more batteries in parallel, the
absorb timers can help balance them as the batteries that don't need
balancing stop charging, while the cells that need the extra time get that
time if you have longer absorb timers.

We advise for our LFP drop in's that you have the following.   Assuming
that you are charging at least the C2 Rate.

1 Parallel Connection = 30-45 mins absorb timers.
2 Parallel Connections = 45-60 mins.
3 Parallel Connections 60-90 mins.
4 Parallel Connections 90-120 mins




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 6:51 PM Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Jay, Larry says is correct.  My experience, with cells and there BMS is
> they need to get up to top balance voltage then the BMS will stop charging
> the full cells and bring the remainder of cells up to fill charge.  My
> oldest set is about 6 years old, since I understood they have been fine
>
> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?
>>
>> Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs
>> pouch?
>>
>> A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of
>> balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did
>> mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual.
>>
>> Wondering what you all think and know
>>
>> Thx
>> Jay
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium upgrade when Magnasine goes to float too soon

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Wrenches,

Yes, some of the "Older" designed inverters/Chargers don't like the quick
rise in voltage when charging batteries.

Most LFPs with a BMS and while being charged in "Open communication" can
withstand having the voltage at 14.2 to 14.4 volts 24 hours/7 Days a week.
  As the internal BMS regulates the charge to the cells.

Make sure you contact the battery manufacturer,r as some of them need to be
charged differently, or you may need to update the charger to one that can
support LFP batteries.

I can tell you that with the Surrette "R-Series LFP," you can set the
charging voltage to 14.4 (28.8v, 57.6v) and leave it there however long you
want.   With that, generally, Lithium batteries do not like to be fully
100% charged all the time.

What we advise on the "R-Series" is you set the Bulk/Absorb Voltage to
14.4v (28.8 or 57.6), and if you see a sudden transition or surging on a
charge, then you put the Float voltage from 13.8 to 14.2 and extend the
float time to to the total expected charge time.   This is something that
you should experiment with for the first few months to get the settings
right.   If you have an Android device, you can download the Bluetooth
dashboard to check the State of charge to ensure the battery is charged.
If not, you can extend that float time to aid in getting to that full
charge.

The good news is LFP or L-Ion don't need to be fully charged. As long as
you get to that 80% to 90% ballpark, you will not lose capacity like lead
batteries.   You won't have full capacity on the battery, and you'll need
to oversize a bit more if you operate like this.

Surrette LFPs like to see the charger setup as a 2-Stage Charger, but as
mentioned above, if you can't adjust this, you will need to set the float
voltage and time to compensate for voltage surge or early transition to
float.

With all that being said, parallel string balancing is an issue we often
see in the field on batteries that do not have closed-loop communication.

If they are not communicating and the customers are cycling the battery
bank full time, I suggest balancing the battery bank strings every 3-6
months.   The harder they work them, the more balancing you will need to
do.Another way to prevent this need for balancing is instead of
Absrobing for 15-30 mins, you extend the absorb timers and disable any end
amps settings as having the voltage at the 14.4 (28.8 or 57.6) for a more
extended period will help keep the parallel strings more balanced.

With Lead batteries... If you see this direct rise in voltage while under
charge, there is an issue...   It could be anything from a connection issue
to a dead or dying cell.

In any case, when dealing with batteries, make sure that you're wearing
your PPE gear.


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 12:55 PM Mick Abraham via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi, Mechanix~ I have several local clients with various different versions
> of Magnum pure sine inverters & all of the inverters seem to transition to
> the float stage soon after the charge cycle begins. I've observed this even
> when the inverters & batteries were brand new. I'm aware of the menus about
> adjusting the bulk time duration but even adjusting that to the longest
> setting never helped.
>
> Since these clients are all off grid with no generator automation, I
> just tweaked the float voltage to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback vfx 3648 question

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Hey Jay.

The AC input Amps should be the "Total" Amperage the inverter uses for
pass-thru and charging.   Having the AC In at five and the Charger at five
may be what is causing the pulsing.   Something else to consider the
charging output of the inverter is not monitored very closely so there is a
chance of sugaring/pulsing, but usually, 20-30 seconds is the most you can
see it fluctuate.   I have seen this in the field myself as well.

So if the Generator has a max peak of 10 amps output, I would set up the AC
input at 8 to 9 amps and the charging amps to 4-5.




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com










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On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 6:07 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi john
>
> Good to hear from you.
>
> Your system charges at above Outback programmed amp setpoints?
> And in a sort of cyclical way?  Sometimes it’s normal for an hour then
> will go to 2x charge rate then back down then maybe 1.5.
>
> I talked to a senior Outback tech and they haven’t heard of this issue.
>
> But if you say is true, how do you adjust the settings so it won’t trip
> the generator breaker?
>
> This one is already at 5aac on ac input and 5 aac on charge and it will
> still, not often trip the generator breaker.
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 2023, at 8:13 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
> >
> > Jay,
> > I have seen this a few times but usually with a generator that is not
> > designed for hard wired system.  I have a Ryobi
> > work generator that does this on both of my outback systems.  It says
> > in the instructions that it is not to be used for stationary
> > applications (ie normally grounded systems).
> >
> > John
> >
> >> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 9:16 AM Jay via RE-wrenches
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> Has anyone had a vfx sort of not pay attention to it charging current
> settings,
> >>
> >> I have a customer who’s older vfx will do the following
> >>
> >> Settings are 5 amps ac, 5 amp ac  charge
> >>
> >> It’ll run at about 10 amps dc charging
> >> Then randomly go up to 30 amps dc then back down. Maybe 15 seconds
> >> Later go up to 25 amps and back down. Kinda all over the place
> >>
> >> Then will stay at the lower amps for some period of time.
> >>
> >> I’m thinking it’s a hardware problem?
> >>
> >> And given the age a new board set is probably in order.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Thx
> >> Jay
> >> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace SW inverter connected to the grid.

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

The old "Pre-GTI" SWs could still sell... The reason that they
temporarily lost their (Early 2000s) UL Rating, it was found that in the
right conditiones they could "Leak" Current/Voltage when connected to the
grid.   Moving the Grid input to the Gen (AC2) input should prevent it from
being able to sell.


Steve Higgins.

On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:30 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> The older versions of the SW didnt have the GTI plug or need it.
>
> What I find curious is what was said about the lineman that they measured
> current.
> If the lines were off, no way that inverter could power it up or even the
> transformer.
>
> I’d recommend checking current just to confirm what’s going on.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Great Point, Todd... Todd is correct. Wire the Utility to the AC2 Input
> (Generator), and it won't be able to sell at all.
>
> Steve Higgins.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:14 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> If the grid is wired to AC2, then the inverter can charge off off that
>> source but not sell to it.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Monday, December 19, 2022 7:50am, "Tump via RE-wrenches" <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
>>
>> I have neve heard that but I would connect the utility to the AC1 input
>> as the window is quite narrow then the grid. The GTI was a piss poor way
>> for trace to regulate “sell” current would ramp up & back down all day
>> long. NOT necessary. BUT then again that old duffer; SH  probably has more
>> brain cells left then I do.
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>> I thought the SW needed a Grid Tie Interface (GTI)
>> <https://www.altestore.com/store/media/pdfs/xantrex/Grid%20Tie%20Interface%20(GTI)%20Data%20Sheet.pdf>
>> to keep current from leaking out to the grid even if you didn;t want to
>> sell to them...
>> Chad Waits
>> President - Net Zero Solar
>> 945 W. Silverlake, Tucson, AZ 85713
>> Cell: (520) 270-4873
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:21 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been retired from doing solar installs for 10 years now and I am
>>> reaching out for help as to recommending a solution to an old
>>> do-it-yourself customers question.
>>>
>>> His solar system that was formerly off-grid and is now using grid power
>>> instead of a back up generator.
>>>
>>> He had/has no intention of doing a net-metered system. Just trying to
>>> reduce dependance on a fossil fuel genset during our mostly sunless Vermont
>>> winters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> He says that he brought in power a few years ago to run their expanding
>>> maple sugaring operation located next to their house. At that time they ran
>>> a 115Vac circuit (grid power) over to their house and connected grid power
>>> into AC Hot In terminal #! in their Trace SW 2512. This is correct as I see
>>> terminal #2 is labeled for generator power.
>>>
>>> He has the Trace programmed for float mode  not sell mode.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Their local utility was working on the line nearby on the main road and
>>> noticed a small amount of current flowing into the grid and figured out
>>> where it was coming from. The utility did not immediately shut him down.
>>> Just told him to correct the problem. He is asking me for advice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My first inclination is to separate the grid power completely from the
>>> inverter power and to feed both power sources into a double pole double
>>> throw transfer switch. What other options should be considered.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance and happy holidays,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Palumbo
>>>
>>> Formerly > Independent Power & Light
>>>
>>> Hyde Park, VT
>>>
>>> 802-371-8678 voice or text
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> Pay optional mem

Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace SW inverter connected to the grid.

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

Great Point, Todd... Todd is correct. Wire the Utility to the AC2 Input
(Generator), and it won't be able to sell at all.

Steve Higgins.




On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:14 AM Todd Cory via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> If the grid is wired to AC2, then the inverter can charge off off that
> source but not sell to it.
>
> Todd
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, December 19, 2022 7:50am, "Tump via RE-wrenches" <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> said:
>
> I have neve heard that but I would connect the utility to the AC1 input as
> the window is quite narrow then the grid. The GTI was a piss poor way for
> trace to regulate “sell” current would ramp up & back down all day long.
> NOT necessary. BUT then again that old duffer; SH  probably has more brain
> cells left then I do.
>
> On Dec 19, 2022, at 10:27 AM, Chad Waits via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
> I thought the SW needed a Grid Tie Interface (GTI)
> 
> to keep current from leaking out to the grid even if you didn;t want to
> sell to them...
> Chad Waits
> President - Net Zero Solar
> 945 W. Silverlake, Tucson, AZ 85713
> Cell: (520) 270-4873
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:21 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been retired from doing solar installs for 10 years now and I am
>> reaching out for help as to recommending a solution to an old
>> do-it-yourself customers question.
>>
>> His solar system that was formerly off-grid and is now using grid power
>> instead of a back up generator.
>>
>> He had/has no intention of doing a net-metered system. Just trying to
>> reduce dependance on a fossil fuel genset during our mostly sunless Vermont
>> winters.
>>
>>
>>
>> He says that he brought in power a few years ago to run their expanding
>> maple sugaring operation located next to their house. At that time they ran
>> a 115Vac circuit (grid power) over to their house and connected grid power
>> into AC Hot In terminal #! in their Trace SW 2512. This is correct as I see
>> terminal #2 is labeled for generator power.
>>
>> He has the Trace programmed for float mode  not sell mode.
>>
>>
>>
>> Their local utility was working on the line nearby on the main road and
>> noticed a small amount of current flowing into the grid and figured out
>> where it was coming from. The utility did not immediately shut him down.
>> Just told him to correct the problem. He is asking me for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>> My first inclination is to separate the grid power completely from the
>> inverter power and to feed both power sources into a double pole double
>> throw transfer switch. What other options should be considered.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance and happy holidays,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave Palumbo
>>
>> Formerly > Independent Power & Light
>>
>> Hyde Park, VT
>>
>> 802-371-8678 voice or text
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
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>>
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>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Trace SW inverter connected to the grid.

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

It sounds to me like Sell Mode is Enabled without the GTI...  But it's been
a long time since I played with an SW and GTI...

Steve Higgins


On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 7:29 AM Chad Waits via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I thought the SW needed a Grid Tie Interface (GTI)
> 
> to keep current from leaking out to the grid even if you didn;t want to
> sell to them...
>
> Chad Waits
> President - Net Zero Solar
> 945 W. Silverlake, Tucson, AZ 85713
> Cell: (520) 270-4873
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 8:21 AM David Palumbo via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been retired from doing solar installs for 10 years now and I am
>> reaching out for help as to recommending a solution to an old
>> do-it-yourself customers question.
>>
>> His solar system that was formerly off-grid and is now using grid power
>> instead of a back up generator.
>>
>> He had/has no intention of doing a net-metered system. Just trying to
>> reduce dependance on a fossil fuel genset during our mostly sunless Vermont
>> winters.
>>
>>
>>
>> He says that he brought in power a few years ago to run their expanding
>> maple sugaring operation located next to their house. At that time they ran
>> a 115Vac circuit (grid power) over to their house and connected grid power
>> into AC Hot In terminal #! in their Trace SW 2512. This is correct as I see
>> terminal #2 is labeled for generator power.
>>
>> He has the Trace programmed for float mode  not sell mode.
>>
>>
>>
>> Their local utility was working on the line nearby on the main road and
>> noticed a small amount of current flowing into the grid and figured out
>> where it was coming from. The utility did not immediately shut him down.
>> Just told him to correct the problem. He is asking me for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>> My first inclination is to separate the grid power completely from the
>> inverter power and to feed both power sources into a double pole double
>> throw transfer switch. What other options should be considered.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance and happy holidays,
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave Palumbo
>>
>> Formerly > Independent Power & Light
>>
>> Hyde Park, VT
>>
>> 802-371-8678 voice or text
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi with SW inverters

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

With the Trace SW, you should be able to program it to charge LFP
batteries. It'll probably take a bit of tinkering to make it work...  Most
LFP BMSs work better if you can set the inverter/charger into a 2 Stage
charging mode.  If I remember correctly, there isn't a setting that forces
the inverter/charger into 2 stage charging.

So you'll have to experiment with the Absorb timer and Float Voltage to
keep the voltage high enough to charge.  The voltage based 3 stage chargers
will sometime record voltage surge errors with Lithium batteries., so you
may also see the surging of voltage from the inverter, especially when the
batteries are above 90% SOC.

You may want to talk with Simplify and see if they have done any testing
with the older Trace Sinewave inverters. They charge a lot like the
Older Outback (VFX) inverters, so you use that as a comparison.



On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 8:58 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I think we might have a naming issue
>
> I’m thinking William is talking about the Trace SW
> And I think Dave is talking about the Schneider SW
>
> Very different critters
>
> To Williams question you should be able to program it
> to meet their specifications.
>
> Jay
>
> On Oct 13, 2022, at 9:49 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
>
> Webinar tomorrow on SW inverters.
>
> Subscribe to our news
> 
> View this email in your browser
> 
>
>
> At Schneider Electric, we support you in your business. Read below our
> upcoming in-person and online events, as well as a new product we just
> launched.
> *Webinar: SW Inverter Advanced Features*
>
> Our SW hybrid inverters
> 
>  are packed with features, which provide reliable backup and PV energy
> management for relatively small residences. Learn how the SW inverter might
> be a great fit for your next project, whether grid-tied or off-grid. For
> NABCEP-certified installers, this webinar will be eligible for *NABCEP
> continuing education credits*.
>
> Date: Thursday, October 13, 2022
> Time: 11 a.m. PDT
> Presenter: Eric Bentsen
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FXR: Battery voltage exceeds settings

[Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches]

William,

If the battery cases swelled, they saw over 52 degrees C temps for quite
some time.

While the swelling is usually only cosmetic, what's happening inside is the
negative plates are starting to burn. This is where you will start to lose
capacity and life cycle...  Extended temps of just 35C will half the
overall battery life.

One of the issues with the Outback gear is they only temp compensate at
5mv/Degree/cell. For all the AGM batteries I know of, you need to temp
compensate at 4mv.   In hot temps, this should help, but cold temps could
result in an overcharge.   Did you check the BTS and make sure it was
operating properly?

Another issue is that BTSs are often placed on the top or lug of the
battery,   The top of the battery is about 5-10 deg C cooler than 1/2 way
down the side of the battery, Which will also cause problems with proper
temperature compensation, especially with warmer/colder extremes.

Any kind of sulfation will cause an imbalance when you mix old and new
batteries.   I'm not a fan of mixing any age AGM batteries as there is no
way to tell what the SOC of the old bank vs. the new bank is.   They are
not like flooded batteries; you can check SGs and dissipate heat
much better than AGM or GEL batteries.   I discourage doing this if you
can.   I probably wouldn't have mixed the old and new in the same strings.
This way, you keep the higher resistance batteries in a single string,

Lastly, bunching them together with no spacing between them is very bad.
Batteries should be in a cool, dry environment.  Most battery companies
want to see 1-3 inches in between each battery to allow for effective
cooling. When they are all bunched up together, that is a lot of thermal
mass that doesn't have much chance of cooling.   I have seen two parallel
strings of AGMs take 24-36 hours with no charging or load to drop from 45c
to 25C!

Hope this helps!  Have a good weekend.




 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
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On Fri, Jul 22, 2022 at 6:48 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I maintain a system with 16 AGM L-16 batteries.  Eight were installed in
> September of 2021 and 8 were added in March of 2022.  This is 5 months
> apart.  I have understood that when you install a string of batteries you
> have one year in which to add another string before the first string ages
> to the point it is contraindicated.  When I added the second 8 I put 4 new
> batteries and 4 old batteries in each string.
>
>
>
> About a third of the batteries are discovered to bulging on top.  I assume
> this means the batteries are damaged.  I checked the FXR and Outback
> Extreme Charge controller settings and all were set to absorb at 58.8, and
> float at 55.2, as the manufacturer recommends.
>
>
>
> I downloaded the charge controller log and got 129 days of data.  In that
> log I see 68 days where the batteries exceeded 60 VDC. This is over half
> the days.
>
>
>
> I wonder this:
>
>
>
> 1.   Why did the voltage go up above 58.8 on so many days even though it
> was set at 58.8. (I set the EQ voltage at 58.8 just in case, but EQ was
> never engaged.)
>
> 2.   Did the excess voltage damage the batteries?
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
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