subject:"\[RE\-wrenches\] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system"

[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-23 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
through a Trace C40.

He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
double or triple his usable capacity.

For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace
fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
he has an inverter.

He definitely wants LiPo batteries.

I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an
inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and
monitor things.

I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt
inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for
his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick
with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump
which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried
about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to
size it.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-23 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches

Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to 
you.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at 
a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for 
lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC 
loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only 
source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. 
The batteries are charged through a Trace C40.


He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of 
AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV 
power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery 
capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. 
Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt 
hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.


For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to 
eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed 
to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to 
replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt 
refrigerator if he has an inverter.


He definitely wants LiPo batteries.

I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting 
an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and 
monitor things.


I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 
volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and 
using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 
12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad 
idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 
12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm 
not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of 
DC converters and not sure how to size it.


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

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Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] https://offgridsolar1.com/___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-23 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

I’ve done this many times 

I use an Iota or power max charger to run the DC. 

Jay

> On Apr 23, 2024, at 2:42 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a 
> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, 
> and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a 
> separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda 
> generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a 
> Trace C40.
> 
> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM 
> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for 
> what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he 
> was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would 
> probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or 
> triple his usable capacity.
> 
> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate 
> or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 
> volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he 
> would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. 
> 
> He definitely wants LiPo batteries. 
> 
> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an 
> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor 
> things. 
> 
> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt 
> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC 
> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his 
> existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 
> 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might 
> be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the 
> efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski 
> Florida Solar Design Group 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
for sure.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
> through a Trace C40.
>
> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
> double or triple his usable capacity.
>
> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace
> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
> he has an inverter.
>
> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>
> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an
> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and
> monitor things.
>
> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt
> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for
> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick
> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump
> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried
> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to
> size it.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

Thanks, Jay. Any thoughts on whether a 100A 12V converter is adequate to handle
the startup surge of a modern 120V full-size refrigerator when an existing 400W
load is present? That would be my design parameters. 


I guess the other question is, what happens if the converter is overloaded? I
know they have overload protection, but what is the reset procedure?

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


[data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAP///wAAACwAAQABAAACAkQBADs=3D]
On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 6:01 PM Jay via RE-wrenches
 wrote:


> I’ve done this many times
> 
> I use an Iota or power max charger to run the DC.
> 
> Jay
> 
> > On Apr 23, 2024, at 2:42 PM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans,
> and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a
> separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda
> generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a
> Trace C40.
> >
> > He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for
> what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was
> happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would
> probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or
> triple his usable capacity.
> >
> > For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate
> or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12
> volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he
> would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter.
> >
> > He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
> >
> > I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an
> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor
> things.
> >
> > I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt
> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his
> existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a
> 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might
> be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the
> efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it.
> >
> > Jason Szumlanski
> > Florida Solar Design Group
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> >
> > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
> [http://re-wrenches.org]
> >
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> [RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org]
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> >
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches

Jason,
  I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
fancy custom control board
originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
thats why I never seem to make money.!!

John Blittersdorf
offgridvermont.com

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
> for sure.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>   
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>> through a Trace C40.
>>
>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>>
>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace
>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
>> he has an inverter.
>>
>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>>
>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an
>> inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and
>> monitor things.
>>
>> I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt
>> inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC
>> converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for
>> his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick
>> with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump
>> which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried
>> about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to
>> size it.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
should be pretty minimal.

I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost
and complexity if possible.


And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really
just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason,
>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
> fancy custom control board
> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>
> John Blittersdorf
> offgridvermont.com
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>> for sure.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>
>>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>>   
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
>>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>>> through a Trace C40.
>>>
>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
>>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>
>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace
>>> fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if
>>> he has an inverter.
>>>
>>> He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
>>>
>>> I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting
>>> an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and
>>> monitor things.
>>>
>>> I am thinking about u

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches

Jason,
My vote would be for using a 120 to 12vDC power supply large enough to
handle the remaining 12 vDC loads and skip the second battery bank. In my
mind, this is simpler, cleaner, and if the power supply fails at some
point, it is an easy replacement, if they still want to keep the DC loads
then. Easier maintenance and operation for the client, less headache for
you. I've definitely gravitated toward the KISS concept of the years, for
both my and my clients' sanity...

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher


On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
> should be pretty minimal.
>
> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
> cost and complexity if possible.
>
>
> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
>> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>> fancy custom control board
>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
>> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
>> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>
>> John Blittersdorf
>> offgridvermont.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>>> for sure.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>>
 Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.

 *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
   
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


 On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

 I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at
 a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
 fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
 through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
 Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
 through a Trace C40.

 He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of
 AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV
 power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery
 capacity that he was happy with when the batteries op

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

I agree with John. Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have. Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator. But you can measure the surge/load and then size the charger accordingly. One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day. JayOn Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason, I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control boardoriginally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!John Blittersdorfoffgridvermont.comOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:

Not being helpful but I walk away from these. It will come back to you.
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
https://offgridsolar1.com/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40.
He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.
For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter.
He definitely wants LiPo batteries.
I don't like the idea of 12 volt direct from a battery plus connecting an inverter to that same battery. It is going to be hard to measure and monitor things.
I am thinking about using a 48 volt battery with a single phase 120 volt inverter, getting him to change to a 120 volt refrigerator, and using a DC converter to give him somewhere in the range of 100 amps at 12 volts for his existing DC lighting and fan loads. Is this a bad idea? Should I stick with a 12 volt battery system? He does have a tiny 12 volt pressure pump which might be an issue for the converter. I'm not sure. I am a bit worried about the efficiency loss and capacity of DC converters and not sure how to size it.
Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email addres

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

Yeah definitely no second battery. On Apr 24, 2024, at 6:41 AM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason,My vote would be for using a 120 to 12vDC power supply large enough to handle the remaining 12 vDC loads and skip the second battery bank. In my mind, this is simpler, cleaner, and if the power supply fails at some point, it is an easy replacement, if they still want to keep the DC loads then. Easier maintenance and operation for the client, less headache for you. I've definitely gravitated toward the KISS concept of the years, for both my and my clients' sanity...Howie MichaelsonSun CatcherOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:26 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible.And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason, I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter, He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control boardoriginally set up to handle AC and DC systems. We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea. We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter. He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well. My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now. For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!John Blittersdorfoffgridvermont.comOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:

On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches

Jason,
  Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
generator (or it won't start).
My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.

John

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
> should be pretty minimal.
>
> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
> cost and complexity if possible.
>
>
> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
>> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>> fancy custom control board
>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
>> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
>> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>
>> John Blittersdorf
>> offgridvermont.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>>> for sure.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>>
 Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.

 *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
   
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


 On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

 I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at
 a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
 fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
 through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
 Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
 through a Trace C40.

 He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of
 AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV
 power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery
 capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally.
 Nonetheless, I would pro

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches


How about just buy an RV?

Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I 
have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor.


Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in 
vans with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad,

and you get the picture.

If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones 
safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it

can be a warning.

Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my 
accountant telling me if you do not charge enough,

no one will listen to your advice.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:


Jason,
Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery 
charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way 
now with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting 
the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my 
inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no 
fuel for the generator (or it won't start).

My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.

John

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I 
was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC 
loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC 
loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the 
DC system, the load should be pretty minimal.


I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that 
cost and complexity if possible.


And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's 
really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.


Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Jason,
I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V 
VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a 
very fancy custom control board
originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot 
more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner 
didn't like that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i 
use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and 
will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a 
VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the 
existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well.  
My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper 
not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V 
battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary 
charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up 
for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original 
system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one 
"emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your customer, a 
small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old 
battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V 
inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a 
smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. 
Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!


John Blittersdorf
offgridvermont.com [3]

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any 
negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as 
simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes 
wide open, for sure.


Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to 
you.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
[1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:

I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at 
a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for 
lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC 
loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only 
source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present.

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-24 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

Hi Dave,

I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a
couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts
to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home
to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows
everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places
that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way
up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people
like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their
off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting.

I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a
fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw
$100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to
meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and
long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want
to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x
100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm
certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose,
and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner.

The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D
QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and
delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much
risk.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> How about just buy an RV?
>
> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I have
> had with what I call Offgrid Squalor.
>
> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in vans
> with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad,
> and you get the picture.
>
> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones
> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it
> can be a warning.
>
> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my accountant
> telling me if you do not charge enough,
> no one will listen to your advice.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>   
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Jason,
>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
> generator (or it won't start).
> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
> should be pretty minimal.
>
> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
> cost and complexity if possible.
>
>
> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
> fancy custom control board
> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  M

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-25 Thread Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches

I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC
distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep
a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC
system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or
other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any
standard distribution box for them.

Brad Bassett
Application Engineer retired

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Dave,
>
> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a
> couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts
> to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home
> to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows
> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places
> that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way
> up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people
> like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their
> off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting.
>
> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a
> fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw
> $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to
> meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and
> long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want
> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x
> 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm
> certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose,
> and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner.
>
> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D
> QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and
> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much
> risk.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>
>> How about just buy an RV?
>>
>> Seriously the reason Jason I am Leary is because of the experiences I
>> have had with what I call Offgrid Squalor.
>>
>> Just have to be careful especially these days of druggies, people in vans
>> with no windows, ex paramilitary that went bad,
>> and you get the picture.
>>
>> If you know the person that is the way to keep you and your loved ones
>> safe. Money does talk sometimes and the lack can of it
>> can be a warning.
>>
>> Also as mentioned, these types of situations, are what gets my accountant
>> telling me if you do not charge enough,
>> no one will listen to your advice.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>   
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>> On 2024-04-24 10:51 am, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Jason,
>>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
>> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
>> generator (or it won't start).
>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
>> should be pretty minimal.
>>
>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
>> cost and complexity if possible.
>>
>>
>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jason,
>>   I ha

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-25 Thread Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches

Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a
suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most
reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back from
my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired
12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When
I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and 120VAC),
sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart shunt/Battery monitor,
Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or AGM's. Good for another 20 years
with batteries being replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every
ancient system that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low
needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers
that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and
lots of headaches with Lithium.

Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property with
a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City, that's
an entirely different conversation.

My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live Fat!
Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a year) 2
Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging
station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC
loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for
lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds
bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle consumption). I've
never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If I'm not around, or my
financials are weak, replacing a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my
wife. If need be, I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I
could pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The
wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any decent
electrician could troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be
around :)

Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed and
replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky dinky to
millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are either AC Hydro,
old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and the latter have had
their share of issues.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC
> distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so to keep
> a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work fine on a 24VDC
> system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers instead in PV combiner or
> other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are fine, but I don't know of any
> standard distribution box for them.
>
> Brad Bassett
> Application Engineer retired
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We have a
>> couple of barrier islands around here where people have set up what amounts
>> to little fish camps that are used infrequently. The islands are also home
>> to a few full-time/most-time residents and state parks. Everyone knows
>> everyone. The clients are safe and reliable. These sites range from places
>> that people paid just tens of thousands of dollars decades ago all the way
>> up to many-multi-million dollar strips of sand where very wealthy people
>> like to look out over Naples beach a couple times of year from their
>> off-grid mansions. It's pretty interesting.
>>
>> I "get" why people who only take friends out a few times a year on a
>> fishing expedition want a band-aid approach. There is no reason to throw
>> $100K at a situation like this. In this case, I feel I can get creative to
>> meet the very limited 12V and 120V needs while providing a reliable and
>> long-lasting solution for around $25K and pocket enough money that I want
>> to answer their call in the future. Right now they are getting by with 4 x
>> 100W Solarland modules with a 9.6kWh battery bank and a Honda EU2000. I'm
>> certain they will be blown away with the performance of whatever I propose,
>> and happy that it is installed in a safe and professional manner.
>>
>> The current distribution systems look solid, each protected by a Square D
>> QO breaker panel and professionally installed. The power production and
>> delivery system is a total kludge that I feel I can fix without too much
>> risk.
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 2:19 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-25 Thread Ray Walters via RE-wrenches


Hi Michael;

I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming along 
24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers. The old school off 
grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, and were not 
going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves.


Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I have a 
new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips below 100 vac, 
every time any larger load goes on (well pump, garbage disposal, fridge, 
coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK battery monitors under warranty so 
far. Apparently you can NOT disconnect or connect the BMK with its built 
in 4 pin *connector*, or it will smoke the unit.  That is a new problem, 
they used to be robust.  I have many older Magnum systems that are 
great.  Magnum quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by 
Sensata.


If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being 
reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago.  Now it looks 
like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years before 
retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize reliability.  
Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its still not ready for 
prime time, either.  I have an installer buddy that is having all sorts 
of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and the installation isn't even 
complete. He's already had to dark start them several times, and now 
they won't even stay operational for more than a few minutes.  The 
cheapo BMS lears its ugly head once again.  All we're doing lately is 
fixing stuff less than 5 years old.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a 
suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most 
reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back 
from my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" 
wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum 
along. When I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the 
power needs haven't grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same 
(12VDC and 120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart 
shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or 
AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in 10. 
With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have tried to 
bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid pioneers has 
been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that take a dump after a 
few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and lots of headaches 
with Lithium.


Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property 
with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the 
City, that's an entirely different conversation.


My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live 
Fat! Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a 
year) 2 Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device 
charging station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) 
on a 12VDC loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC 
loadcenter for lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a 
loadcenter that feeds bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to 
reduce idle consumption). I've never had a problem with this system in 
15 years. If I'm not around, or my financials are weak, replacing a 
piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my wife. If need be, I can 
charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I could pull a battery 
from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The wiring/installation 
is clear and I made a manual so that any decent electrician could 
troubleshoot and make repairs should Todd Cory not be around :)


Again, I say all this to provoke a thought experiment. I've installed 
and replaced hundreds upon hundreds of off-grid systems from pinky 
dinky to millions and the ones that have worked the best were/are 
either AC Hydro, old-school (pre-Xantrex) or Schneider/Discover and 
the latter have had their share of issues.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 7:34 AM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I had a lot of trouble keeping QO breakers functional on a 12VDC
distribution system. I'd have to move them around every week or so
to keep a good contact on the plug in contacts. They seem to work
fine on a 24VDC system. I went to using MNPV or MNDC breakers
instead in PV combiner or other MidNite boxes. QOU breakers are
fine, but I don't know of any standard distribution box for them.

Brad Bassett
Application Engineer retired

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 11:42 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

Hi Dave,

I appreciate the concern. It's not one of those situations. We
have a couple of barrier islands around here where people have
set up what amounts to little fish camps that

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-25 Thread Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches

Ray,
I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early old age
( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time troubleshooting and
replacing equipment on my dime. Between that, competing with Grid-Tied
guys, and having to justify my mark-up to clients comparing my pricing to
NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore. Where I'm at, there's little
commercial or industrial electrical work to be had so it's likely my future
is pulling rope through attics and crawl spaces.

Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was
extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was thinking
that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing transfer relays
and that was only a few out of countless systems. I think it was Bob-O who
many years ago introduced me to the saying "it's a race to the bottom" : )

I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the end. I
also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I don't know
which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar.

On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Michael;
>
> I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming along
> 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers.  The old school off grid
> folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun, and were not going to
> call unless they couldn't fix it themselves.
>
> Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I have a new
> Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips below 100 vac, every
> time any larger load goes on (well pump, garbage disposal, fridge, coffee
> maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK battery monitors under warranty so far.
> Apparently you can NOT disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4
> pin *connector*, or it will smoke the unit.  That is a new problem, they
> used to be robust.  I have many older Magnum systems that are great.
> Magnum quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata.
>
> If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being reliable,
> I would have gone out of business decades ago.  Now it looks like I need to
> find a new line of work, just a few years before retirement, because
> manufacturers no longer prioritize reliability.  Meanwhile Li+ is what new
> customers expect, yet its still not ready for prime time, either.  I have
> an installer buddy that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery
> setup, and the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark
> start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational for more
> than a few minutes.  The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head once again.  All
> we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5 years old.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not necessarily a
> suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems were/are for me the most
> reliable and trouble free systems. I'd install one and never hear back from
> my customer for a decade or more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired
> 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When
> I get asked to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
> grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and 120VAC),
> sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart shunt/Battery monitor,
> Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or AGM's. Good for another 20 years
> with batteries being replaced in 10. With only a few exceptions, every
> ancient system that I have tried to bring into the 21st century for my low
> needs off-grid pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers
> that take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers, and
> lots of headaches with Lithium.
>
> Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a property
> with a legacy system and wants to live like they are still in the City,
> that's an entirely different conversation.
>
> My own system for my full time off-grid home is 12V/120V, and I live Fat!
> Tiny array (700Ws 4 hours a day), tiny hydro (150Ws 7 months a year) 2
> Rolls 21 CS-21Ps, Honda eu2000i, 12VDC Sunfrost, 12VDC device charging
> station, 12VDC UV water disinfection (gravity spring water) on a 12VDC
> loadcenter (SQD QO), Morningstar 300W Suresine powers an AC loadcenter for
> lighting and most plugs) Magnum 2812 powers a loadcenter that feeds
> bathroom and kitchen plugs. It stays off to reduce idle consumption). I've
> never had a problem with this system in 15 years. If I'm not around, or my
> financials are weak, replacing a piece of equipment won't hurt myself or my
> wife. If need be, I can charge from a vehicle or farm equipment. And I
> could pull a battery from something here on the ranch in a pinch. The
> wiring/installation is clear and I made a manual so that any decent
> electrician cou

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-26 Thread Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches

I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I
worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled
refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV
drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the
homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO
panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker
panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I
wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay
and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I agree with John.
>
> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have.
> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator.
>
> But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger accordingly.
>
> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and
> last longer because they are not at 15v during the day.
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Jason,
>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
> fancy custom control board
> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>
> John Blittersdorf
> offgridvermont.com
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any
>> negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple
>> and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open,
>> for sure.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via
>> RE-wrenches  wrote:
>>
>>> Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you.
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
>>>   
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a
>>> cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting,
>>> fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run
>>> through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt
>>> Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged
>>> through a Trace C40.
>>>
>>> He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM
>>> batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power
>>> for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that
>>> he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I
>>> would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to
>>> double or triple his usable capacity.
>>>
>>> For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to
>>> eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to
>>> keeping his 12 volt distribution because

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-26 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

I’ve had no issues with qo over the years for 12v except if they get dirt in them from mud dobber wasps. JayOn Apr 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches  wrote:I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.   On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches  wrote:I agree with John. Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have. Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator. But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger accordingly. One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day. JayOn Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jason,  I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very fancy custom control boardoriginally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System. Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe thats why I never seem to make money.!!John Blittersdorfoffgridvermont.comOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willing to live with any negative consequences. That said, I want to offer him something as simple and bulletproof as possible. I am walking into this with eyes wide open, for sure.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 5:47 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:

Not being helpful but I  walk away from these.  It will come back to you. 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
  https://offgridsolar1.com/ 
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On 2024-04-23 2:40 pm, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:


I have an off-grid client who is working on replacing old equipment at a cabin. He has a lot of 12 volt distribution in the house for lighting, fans, and a 12 volt refrigerator. He also has 120 volt AC loads that run through a separate distribution panel where the only source is a 2000 Watt Honda generator. There is no inverter present. The batteries are charged through a Trace C40.
 
He currently has a few ancient solar panels and a struggling Bank of AGM batteries. It's time for an upgrade. I can easily supply enough PV power for what he needs. He currently has a 9 kilowatt hour battery capacity that he was happy with when the batteries operated optimally. Nonetheless, I would probably future-proof him with a 10 to 15 kilowatt hour LiPo to double or triple his usable capacity.
 
For convenience, obviously it would be nice to have an inverter to eliminate or reduce the generator requirement. But he seems committed to keeping his 12 volt distribution because it would be costly to replace fixtures. I think he would consider replacing the 12 volt refrigerator if he has an inverter. 
 
He definitely wants LiPo batteries.

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-26 Thread John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches

I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4
golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am
looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the
PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the
inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a
vacuum the only load to be
added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR
system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once
or twice and no
other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the
inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and
it fired right up.
This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and
on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of
the FM100
seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients
off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely
heavily on OpticRE
to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off
my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they
have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their
batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install)
with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery
voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the
generator remotely.

John

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 5:39 PM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I’ve had no issues with qo over the years for 12v except if they get dirt
> in them from mud dobber wasps.
>
> Jay
>
> On Apr 26, 2024, at 9:05 AM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree with John also.  one of the better-performing off-grid houses I
> worked on used a 48 to 12-V Samlex converter. The 12-volt thick-walled
> refrigerator was about 4 amps at 12 volts. The lights, radio, and small TV
> drew very few amps each/  I also used an Outback 3648 inverter, which the
> homeowner turned on only. when needed (wash machine, etc.), I used SQ-D QO
> panel board in case the owner wanted to go to 120 volt AC future breaker
> panel. All lighting was Edison base lamps, and all wiring was NMB Romex.  I
> wired like a normal house except for a 120-v panel and 12-v panel I relay
> and momentary switch by appliance for easy turning on of AC inverter.
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:49 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I agree with John.
>>
>> Most 12v fridges have small compressors. But I don’t know what they have.
>> Personally a major reason to go 120/ac is to get a normal refrigerator.
>>
>> But you can measure the surge/load  and then size the charger
>> accordingly.
>>
>> One feature of going charger is the lights are a lot brighter at night
>> and last longer because they are not at 15v during the day.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>> On Apr 24, 2024, at 5:01 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Jason,
>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
>> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>> fancy custom control board
>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
>> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>> not handle all his current AC loads very well.  My own house is fully wired
>> for 12VDC as well as AC (lots of #10 copper not being used) and I have been
>> considering getting a small LFP 12V battery to put back on by DC System.
>> Then use the Iota as a secondary charging method with some of my large
>> stash of older modules hooked up for 12V direct with C40 charge controller
>> to recreate my original system just for kicks. I'm only using DC for my
>> Sunfrost and one "emergency light" in the livingroom right now.  For your
>> customer, a small LFP 12v battery (approximately $500 or less) to replace
>> his old battery bankm and more larger ones for the new AC side with 48V
>> inverter fed by his generator or through an Iota 48 V charger ifusing a
>> smaller non charging inverter. Unlike Dave, I like these challenges. Maybe
>> thats why I never seem to make money.!!
>>
>> John Blittersdorf
>> offgridvermont.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 7:22 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Fortunately, the owner is pretty handy and is willi

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-26 Thread Dan Fink via RE-wrenches

John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but
only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a
client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave
inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including
some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers.
I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a
single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius.
Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a
choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better
waveform options now too!
Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4
> golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am
> looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the
> PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the
> inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a
> vacuum the only load to be
> added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR
> system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once
> or twice and no
> other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the
> inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and
> it fired right up.
> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and
> on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of
> the FM100
> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients
> off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely
> heavily on OpticRE
> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off
> my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they
> have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their
> batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install)
> with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery
> voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the
> generator remotely.
>
> John
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-27 Thread John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches

Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find replacement
wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is quiet and the
blades don't blow off.
Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw.  Does anyone have first hand
knowledge about this turbine or the manufacturer.  I am interested in
performance, sourcing etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a
customer i have tried cheap ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300
watt turbine and didn't last a year before the hub casting broke and the
blade and turbine landed 200' from the tower in pieces.

John Blittersdorf
CV Wind Service

On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 11:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but
> only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a
> client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave
> inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including
> some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers.
> I also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a
> single strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius.
> Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a
> choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better
> waveform options now too!
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> d anbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
>
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4
>> golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
>> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I
>> am looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing
>> the PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the
>> inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a
>> vacuum the only load to be
>> added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR
>> system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once
>> or twice and no
>> other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the
>> inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and
>> it fired right up.
>> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and
>> on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of
>> the FM100
>> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients
>> off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely
>> heavily on OpticRE
>> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off
>> my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they
>> have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their
>> batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install)
>> with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery
>> voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the
>> generator remotely.
>>
>> John
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-27 Thread Jon Haeme via RE-wrenches

John, 
I bought a Braun Antartis 2.5 kw wind turbine in 2019 to replace an old ARE 2.5 
kw turbine. The Braun has worked well for the last 5 years. I had to import it 
from Germany. The old ARE generated more energy, but the Braun is quieter and 
seems more reliable. 
https://braun-windturbinen.com/

I only had one incident where lightning took out a board on the controller. It 
was well grounded and protected by Midnite Surge Protectors, but this was close 
strike that took out our garage door opener and a few other things as well.  
They shipped a replacement and it was easy to swap out. Everything is mounted 
on DIN rails in the control panel. 

Jon Haeme


> On Apr 27, 2024, at 7:46 AM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find replacement 
> wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is quiet and the 
> blades don't blow off.
> Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw.  Does anyone have first hand knowledge about 
> this turbine or the manufacturer.  I am interested in  performance, sourcing 
> etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a customer i have tried cheap 
> ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300 watt turbine and didn't last a 
> year before the hub casting broke and the blade and turbine landed 200' from 
> the tower in pieces.
> 
> John Blittersdorf
> CV Wind Service
> 
> On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 11:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
>> John; I had quite a few Trace DR series in the field back in the day, but 
>> only one left alive today, fortunately in my guest cabin and not at a 
>> client's house. They had a pretty OK waveform for a modified square wave 
>> inverter, but some modern appliances were just a no-go with a DR, including 
>> some microwaves, LED lights, cordless tool chargers, fridges, and washers. I 
>> also found them particularly sensitive to lightning damage, we had a single 
>> strike that took out every DR within a 1/2 mile radius. 
>> Good product at a nice price point for the era, but honestly if given a 
>> choice I'd take a Trace U-series over a DR now. Fortunately we have better 
>> waveform options now too!
>> Dan Fink
>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>> NABCEP PV Associate
>> d anbo...@gmail.com 
>> 
>> 970-672-4342
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 26, 2024 at 8:50 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
>> > > wrote:
>>> I have a new client wanting to upgrade an old system with DR inverter, 4 
>>> golf cart batteries Trace C40 CC and two small PV panels. The system was
>>> definitely installed by a professional with breakers and switched and I am 
>>> looking at the photo the customer emailed to me and other than upsizing the 
>>> PV array and new batteries, there seems to be no reason to change the 
>>> inverter which is very energy efficient. His loads are minimal with  a 
>>> vacuum the only load to be
>>> added.  Another customer called about 18 years after I installed his DR 
>>> system,  Seems that the inverter failed. He had replaced the batteries once 
>>> or twice and no 
>>> other issues.  Got there to check out the failure, I had voltage at the 
>>> inverter DC connections. So I pushed the TINY little black start button and 
>>> it fired right up.
>>> This system had been so reliable that he had forgotten that there was and 
>>> on/off reset button. For now though, I'm sticking with Outback in spite of 
>>> the FM100
>>> seeming to have hair trigger GFCI circuit  As with many of my clients 
>>> off-grid second home with a view, access is sometimes difficult so I rely 
>>> heavily on OpticRE
>>> to make sure their lights are on and to keep micro managing customers off 
>>> my back when they call ask why the solar input is only 1200 watts when they 
>>> have 7K of panels on a perfect sunny day. I look at optics and their 
>>> batteries are full... DUH  I even have two Magnum systems (not my install) 
>>> with FM60's with AUX Relay so I can use MATE3 & OpticsRE to check battery 
>>> voltage, charging, setting charging perameters and start and stop the 
>>> generator remotely.
>>> 
>>> John  
>>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-04-27 Thread Dan Fink via RE-wrenches

John - much better to start a new thread on this so the small wind turbine
tag is seen. I'm interested too, and I have not seen much new info on the
small wind manufacturer topic here for a few months.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 6:47 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Shifting the small off grid thread a little, I'm trying to find
> replacement wind turbines for the Bergey XL.1 in the 1-2 kw range that is
> quiet and the blades don't blow off.
> Bergey is suggesting Bornay 1kw.  Does anyone have first hand
> knowledge about this turbine or the manufacturer.  I am interested in
> performance, sourcing etc. After having to sell my Pika T701 to a
> customer i have tried cheap ($1000) chinese that turned out to be a 300
> watt turbine and didn't last a year before the hub casting broke and the
> blade and turbine landed 200' from the tower in pieces.
>
> John Blittersdorf
> CV Wind Service
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-03 Thread Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches

For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with
120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was
considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase
inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the
other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this
application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in
the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have
not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you
know otherwise.

I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The
biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on
the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan
starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only
reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner
wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.

BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a
split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V
inverter.

I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I
can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point
they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the
shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and
separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been
dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought
EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues
other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm
impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't
want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but
I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for
this job.

And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh
battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match.
I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with
the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to
the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they
upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Jason,
>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
> generator (or it won't start).
> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
>> should be pretty minimal.
>>
>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
>> cost and complexity if possible.
>>
>>
>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12 V
>>> VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
>>> fancy custom control board
>>> originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot more
>>> solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't like
>>> that idea.  We are going with and Iota 12v power supply (i use one at my
>>> house for my sunfrost) to power up all his DC loads and will be adding a
>>> large 48 V battery bank and over 4Kw of solar using a VFXR3648 directly in
>>> place of the 12V inverter.  He complained that the existing inverter would
>>> not hand

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-03 Thread david quattro via RE-wrenches

I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version
David




On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with
> 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was
> considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase
> inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the
> other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this
> application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in
> the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have
> not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you
> know otherwise.
>
> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The
> biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on
> the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan
> starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only
> reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner
> wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.
>
> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a
> split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V
> inverter.
>
> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I
> can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point
> they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the
> shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and
> separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been
> dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought
> EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues
> other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm
> impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't
> want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but
> I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for
> this job.
>
>
> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh
> battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match.
> I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with
> the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to
> the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they
> upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery
>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now
>> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the
>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits
>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the
>> generator (or it won't start).
>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was
>>> thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is
>>> the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly
>>> with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load
>>> should be pretty minimal.
>>>
>>> I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that
>>> cost and complexity if possible.
>>>
>>>
>>> And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's
>>> really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>>>
>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Jason,
   I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12
 V VFX inverter,  He has a sunfrost fridge and other small loads with a very
 fancy custom control board
 originally set up to handle AC and DC systems.  We are adding a lot
 more solar and I was considering a dual battery system but the owner didn't
 like that idea.  We

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-03 Thread Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches

David is correct.  We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and it’s a 
good product.  However, be aware that you can configure it either as a 120V 
inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with a max. 
output of about 8 kW.  However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning if you 
configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral.

Tom McCalmont
Paired Power


> On May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version
> David
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
>> For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 
>> 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was 
>> considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase 
>> inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the 
>> other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this 
>> application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in the 
>> future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not 
>> heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you know 
>> otherwise. 
>> 
>> I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The 
>> biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on 
>> the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan 
>> starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only 
>> reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner 
>> wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.
>> 
>> BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a 
>> split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V 
>> inverter.
>> 
>> I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I 
>> can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point 
>> they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the 
>> shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and 
>> separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been 
>> dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought 
>> EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues 
>> other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm 
>> impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't 
>> want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but 
>> I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for 
>> this job.
>> 
>> 
>> And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh 
>> battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I 
>> get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with 
>> the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to 
>> the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade 
>> their generator for faster battery recharges.
>> 
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
>> > > wrote:
>>> Jason,
>>>   Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery 
>>> charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now 
>>> with the battery cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the 
>>> battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits 
>>> low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the 
>>> generator (or it won't start).
>>> My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. 
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>>> >> > wrote:
 Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was 
 thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is 
 the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads 
 directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC 
 system, the load should be pretty minimal. 
 
 I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that 
 cost and complexity if possible.
 
 
 And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's 
 really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.
>> 
 
 Jason Szumlanski
 Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-03 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

Maybe the new 5kw 120v unit is the 8kw at 120v?JayOn May 3, 2024, at 4:22 PM, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches wrote:David is correct. We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and it’s a good product. However, be aware that you can configure it either as a 120V inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with a max. output of about 8 kW. However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning if you configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral.Tom McCalmontPaired PowerOn May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches wrote:I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only versionDavidOn Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 120V output, but there are not many options in the size range I was considering. It hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase inverter and run the DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K would probably be the right size for this application. Despite there being no 240V loads, they "could" add them in the future if needed. I know about imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not heard this same feedback about the 8k, so please let me know if you know otherwise. I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The biggest load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on the AC side will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan starting up. The inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only reason I want an inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner wants a 9.6kWh LiPo battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V inverter.I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I can find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point they offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the shelf for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and separate charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been dabbling into the EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought EG4 batteries before they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues other than battery to inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm impressed, but the prices are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't want to get off topic here with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but I wanted to mention the EG4 6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for this job.And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh battery with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I get that, but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with the generator only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to the potential mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade their generator for faster battery recharges.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason, Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery charger or a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now with the battery cables going nowhere. I was thinking of putting the battery back in the system just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on a cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it won't start).My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps. JohnOn Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be pretty minimal. I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and complexity if possible.And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really just a challenge to ward off boredom from the daily grind.Jason SzumlanskiPrincipal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design GroupNABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:01 AM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches wrote:Jason, I have a customer with the same situation except he already has a 12

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-04 Thread Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches

& from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? 
Please clarify if different

_
Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS!
C - 208.721.7003  E - d...@solarwork.com
W - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!"

--- Begin Message ---
David is correct.  We have some experience with Sol-Ark’s inverter, and it’s a 
good product.  However, be aware that you can configure it either as a 120V 
inverter with a max. output of about 5 kW or as a 240V inverter with a max. 
output of about 8 kW.  However, it does NOT do split-phase, meaning if you 
configure it for 240V, it cannot run loads that require a neutral.

Tom McCalmont
Paired Power


On May 3, 2024, at 4:12 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

I think SolArk makes an 8K 120V-only version
David




On Fri, May 3, 2024 at 3:13 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
For this application I was originally thinking about a 48V inverter with 120V 
output, but there are not many options in the size range I was considering. It 
hit me that I could potentially get a 120/240V split-phase inverter and run the 
DC converter from one leg and the 120V loads from the other leg. The Sol-Ark 8K 
would probably be the right size for this application. Despite there being no 
240V loads, they "could" add them in the future if needed. I know about 
imbalance issues with the 12k, but have not heard this same feedback about the 
8k, so please let me know if you know otherwise.

I really doubt there will be enough imbalance here to cause issues. The biggest 
load on the DC side is a tiny 12V DC pump and the largest load on the AC side 
will be the new refrigerator, or maybe a big ceiling fan starting up. The 
inductive loads are almost negligible. Really the only reason I want an 
inverter this large is for the charger capacity. The owner wants a 9.6kWh LiPo 
battery minimum, so I want a sizable charger.

BUT, the client would need to replace their 120V portable generator with a 
split-phase unit. That could be a sticking point taking me back to a 120V 
inverter.

I was hoping for an all-in-one for this particular job, but the only one I can 
find that is 48Vdc and 120Vac is the EG4 6500EX-48. At the price point they 
offer it, I guess it can't hurt to try! I can even have a spare on the shelf 
for less in total than the cost of a Victron inverter charger and separate 
charge controller, and still have money to spare. I have been dabbling into the 
EG4 brand, mostly with clients that went ahead and bought EG4 batteries before 
they ever met me, and I haven't had any real issues other than battery to 
inverter closed loop comms. It's too early to say I'm impressed, but the prices 
are in the too-good-to-be-true category. I don't want to get off topic here 
with batteries and manufacturer reliability, but I wanted to mention the EG4 
6500EX-48, which seems like perfect specs for this job.


And... I know... someone is probably thinking that we're up to a 9.6kWh battery 
with a small 120V generator, and that's probably not a good match. I get that, 
but the client expects the PV to handle all of their needs with the generator 
only serving as an emergency backup. I have alerted them to the potential 
mismatch. I still want a sizeable charger in case they upgrade their generator 
for faster battery recharges.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208



On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 1:52 PM John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Jason,
  Just using the converter works fine. They are considered a battery charger or 
a regulated power supply. I am currently running that way now with the battery 
cables going nowhere.  I was thinking of putting the battery back in the system 
just for triple redundancy when my inverter hits low battery cutoff voltage on 
a cold winter night and no fuel for the generator (or it won't start).
My Iota DLS puts out a regulated 13.4 volts up to 30 amps.

John

On Wed, Apr 24, 2024 at 8:25 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Ah ha! I didn't consider using a small 12V battery with a charger. I was 
thinking of just using a 120V -> 12V converter to handle the DC loads. Is the 
12V battery really necessary, or can I just power the DC loads directly with a 
converter? If I just have lights and fans on the DC system, the load should be 
pretty minimal.

I could use a separate 12V battery, but I would like to eliminate that cost and 
complexity if possible.


And yeah, I am not considering this a money making opportunity. It's really 
just a cha

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-04 Thread Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches

It does not do split-phase.  You either configure it for 120V or 240V, both 
single-phase (no neutral).

> On May 4, 2024, at 6:45 AM, Dana Orzel  wrote:
> 
> & from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? 
> Please clarify if different
>  
> _
> Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS! 
> C – 208.721.7003  E – d...@solarwork.com 
> W - www. greatsolarworks.com  
> www.solarwork.com 
> “Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!”
>  
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-04 Thread Jay via RE-wrenches

I wanted to follow up on this thread. According to the sol Ark website. The US 8 kw is rated at 120/240. Which I’ve always thought mean 3 wire. L1,L2,N. The US 5kw is 120v only. L1, N Do I have this correct?JayOn May 4, 2024, at 9:15 AM, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches  wrote:It does not do split-phase.  You either configure it for 120V or 240V, both single-phase (no neutral).On May 4, 2024, at 6:45 AM, Dana Orzel  wrote:& from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? Please clarify if different _Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003  E – d...@solarwork.comW - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” ___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-04 Thread Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches

There are two different products. The so-called 5/8kW is the one that can’t do split phase. 5 kW @120V or 8 kW @240VThe pure 8kW may be able to do split-phase but it’s a different product Tom McCalmontSent from my iPhoneOn May 4, 2024, at 6:20 PM, Jay  wrote:I wanted to follow up on this thread. According to the sol Ark website. The US 8 kw is rated at 120/240. Which I’ve always thought mean 3 wire. L1,L2,N. The US 5kw is 120v only. L1, N Do I have this correct?JayOn May 4, 2024, at 9:15 AM, Tom McCalmont via RE-wrenches  wrote:It does not do split-phase.  You either configure it for 120V or 240V, both single-phase (no neutral).On May 4, 2024, at 6:45 AM, Dana Orzel  wrote:& from what I was told this week split you only get 1/2 the power per leg? Please clarify if different _Dana OrzelGREAT SOLAR WORKS! C – 208.721.7003  E – d...@solarwork.comW - www. greatsolarworks.com www.solarwork.com“Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988!” ___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

2024-05-12 Thread Bill Battagin via RE-wrenches

I'll just say I hope there are manufacturers of the equipment we are 
using who are diligently reading our conversations here.  They must know 
how us Beta-testers (AKA: installers) are fairing with their shining new 
versions of the stuff we install and become married to a positive 
outcome for our customers and really the future of solar, hopefully not 
at the cost of our sanity.


        Personally, so far we've been happy with the switch to 
SimpliPhi's batteries though I'm sure we're not installing the quantity 
that many on the list are.  Most have been in Outback/Midnite systems of 
varying ages.


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, owner
4291 Nelson St. (Shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA  95983
530-284-7849, 258-1641(cell)
CA. C10 Lic # 874049
Solar Powered since 1982
Home of the Sunny Side Up

On 4/25/2024 11:08 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

Ray,
I'm in the same situation. My strategic plan was to work into early 
old age ( in 20-25 years). But now, I spend half of my time 
troubleshooting and replacing equipment on my dime. Between that, 
competing with Grid-Tied guys, and having to justify my mark-up to 
clients comparing my pricing to NAZ's, It's just not worth it anymore. 
Where I'm at, there's little commercial or industrial electrical work 
to be had so it's likely my future is pulling rope through attics and 
crawl spaces.


Yes, the Magnum equipment produced for the first five or so years was 
extremely reliable. Same for the Outback, maybe less so. I was 
thinking that the only repairs I had to make on SWs was replacing 
transfer relays and that was only a few out of countless systems. I 
think it was Bob-O who many years ago introduced me to the saying 
"it's a race to the bottom" : )


I tried EG4's in my own system when at 15 years my Rolls reached the 
end. I also tried them in a customers system. Absolute nightmare. I 
don't know which is worse, the batteries or Signature Solar.


On Thu, Apr 25, 2024 at 10:36 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Michael;

I don't think its 12v, I have old Trace 48 v systems still humming
along 24 years later, too. Some of it, is the customers.  The old
school off grid folks knew how to conserve energy, watch the sun,
and were not going to call unless they couldn't fix it themselves.

Also, the equipment was built much better back then for sure, I
have a new Magnum install that is just a disaster, voltage dips
below 100 vac, every time any larger load goes on (well pump,
garbage disposal, fridge, coffee maker) and I've replaced 3 BMK
battery monitors under warranty so far. Apparently you can NOT
disconnect or connect the BMK with its built in 4 pin *connector*,
or it will smoke the unit.  That is a new problem, they used to be
robust.  I have many older Magnum systems that are great.  Magnum
quality has taken a huge dive since being acquired by Sensata.

If it wasn't for Trace, old Outback, and old Magnum stuff being
reliable, I would have gone out of business decades ago.  Now it
looks like I need to find a new line of work, just a few years
before retirement, because manufacturers no longer prioritize
reliability.  Meanwhile Li+ is what new customers expect, yet its
still not ready for prime time, either.  I have an installer buddy
that is having all sorts of trouble with an EG4 battery setup, and
the installation isn't even complete. He's already had to dark
start them several times, and now they won't even stay operational
for more than a few minutes.  The cheapo BMS lears its ugly head
once again.  All we're doing lately is fixing stuff less than 5
years old.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 4/25/2024 9:52 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:

Here's a different take. Just food for thought and not
necessarily a suggestion. Those 1st or 2nd Gen 12V systems
were/are for me the most reliable and trouble free systems. I'd
install one and never hear back from my customer for a decade or
more. I regularly see "rats nest" wired 12V/Trace DR/UX hybrid
systems with Arco panels that still hum along. When I get asked
to update these systems, assuming that the power needs haven't
grown much, I usually keep the voltages the same (12VDC and
120VAC), sanitize the wiring, add OCPDs, Victron smart
shunt/Battery monitor, Victron CC and inverter, and Lead Acids or
AGM's. Good for another 20 years with batteries being replaced in
10. With only a few exceptions, every ancient system that I have
tried to bring into the 21st century for my low needs off-grid
pioneers has been a flop. Inverters and Charge controllers that
take a dump after a few years, TMI with new monitor/controllers,
and lots of headaches with Lithium.

Now, if we're talking about a client who has just purchased a
property with a legacy system an

[RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

Re: [RE-wrenches] 120 Vac and 12Vdc mixed distribution system

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