Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Drake,

A GENTRAN or equivalent is standard equipment for adding a backup 
generator to a house or small business as an alternative to one main 
manual or automatic transfer switch.   It's simply a box with 8-12 
individual transfer switch breakers some 120 and a few 240 - mostly 15 
and 20 amp.  They sell plug-in types and hard wire types where the 
output of a small gas generator is either plugged into the face of the 
unit or hardwired into the buss.


Then there is a bundle of wires that run from the GENTRAN to the house 
breaker panel.  For each house circuit you want to backup you simply 
interupt the load line coming out of that main panel circuit breaker 
with the 2 lines from the individual transfer switches in the GENTRAN.  
So on the GENTRAN you switch each circuit between "GEN" or "Utility".  
Then you simply use the output of your new off-grid solar inverter to 
feed the GEN side and during a power outage you can not only switch your 
house over to your solar inverter with no dedicated critical loads 
subpanel but you can control how much load you want to put on your 
backup solar.


I've used 2 GENTRANS to cover all the circuits in a house - so IMHO it's 
better than a dedicated subpanel or an all-house automatic transfer 
switch in that you can pick and choose how much load you want to expose 
your inverter and batteries too.  The only disadvantage is they only 
usually come in 15 and 20 amp circuits and usually offer only one or 2 
240 Volt circuits.  If you want to empower a 30 or 50 Amp 240 circuit - 
there are other companies that sell GENTRAN type switches with 
customizable breaker options but they are much more expensive.


Do watch your neutral and grounding circuits though.  Since the neutral 
is bonded at the Main panel you want to be consistent with the "grounded 
conductor grounded at one and only one point rule" when the GENTRAN is 
installed and switched - a point many electricians miss when they 
install backup generators.


Hope that helps.

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
NABCEP^(TM) Certified PV Installer
C-46 CA Solar Contractor


Drake wrote:
The GENTRAN sounds very interesting.  The Internet has some for sale, 
but so far no detail.   Will the 12 circuit panel shed one circuit at 
a time?   In a nutshell, how does this work?



Thanks,

Drake



At 02:32 AM 11/10/2011, you wrote:

Hi Wrenchies,

Yes and if you use a GENTRAN or equivalent circuit-by-circuit 
transfer switch add-on for the output from the offgrid inverter to 
your AC panel -  then there is no need for a separate dedicated AC 
loads panel and rewire like in Larry's original drawing.  I've used 
this trick for years to avoid a dedicated subpanel for the output of 
an off-grid inverter.  Combined with the DC transfer switch idea that 
high voltage MPPTs enable,  (we've been waiting for this) you have a 
really simple retrofit for an on-grid system.


And now with Magnum and others offering low-power 120/240 split phase 
outputs in one inverter - the grid-tie hybrid retrofit market is 
getting more attractive all the time.  DC Transfer Switch to MPPT 
Charger to 120/240 split phase inverter/battery to GENTRAN Switch.  
Getting cheaper all the time.


And hopefully one day not too far off SMA will bring their "Backup 
Set S" they show in their European catalog to the States- this is 
basically a 2.2 KW version of the Sunny Island - 2 of them would 
achieve 120/240 stacked and be a nice cheaper SB enabler as well.


Also your standard 100 AMP 4 pole DPDT transfer switch may not be 
rated for 600 VDC explicitly but think of it - the old knife style 
units "throw" is like 12" - no way that won't work with 600 VDC.


Hope that helps!,

Jeff





Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:


Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The
Outback is limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need
to spend.

With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is
down, PV feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without
a transfer switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt
transformers or dual inverters. No relays, switches or diversion
controllers. Batteries are always properly maintained. No phantom loads.
Very simple.

Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer
switch.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:



Any amount of power will AC couple. 


If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the
protected load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to
supply loads, when the grid is available.  Just feed  your grid
tie inverter into the protected loads panel.   You will need a
relay to shut off power from the grid tie inverter when the batteries are
full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay in the Outback.

The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery
inverter's internal transfer switch dur

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Darryl Thayer]

We are getting a little wild here, but take the 600 volt line and run one leg 
at least through the high voltage relay (tyco kilivolt EV2000 series), then use 
a 3 pole 240 V transfer switch, using one pole to control the series current 
through the relay coil.  When the 240 volt switch is opened the relay breaks 
the circuit, and the transfer switch finishes opening without current.  The 240 
volt switch is safe with no load just like a do not open under load other 
devices we use.  
Darryl



From: Jeff Clearwater 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery  backup


Hi Wrenchies,

Yes and if you use a 
GENTRAN or equivalent circuit-by-circuit transfer switch add-on for the 
output from the offgrid inverter to your AC panel -  then there is no 
need for a separate dedicated AC loads panel and rewire like in Larry's 
original drawing.  I've used this trick for years to avoid a dedicated 
subpanel for the output of an off-grid inverter.  Combined with the DC 
transfer switch idea that high voltage MPPTs enable,  (we've been 
waiting for this) you have a really simple retrofit for an on-grid 
system.  

And now with Magnum and others offering low-power 
120/240 split phase outputs in one inverter - the grid-tie hybrid 
retrofit market is getting more attractive all the time.  DC Transfer 
Switch to MPPT Charger to 120/240 split phase inverter/battery to 
GENTRAN Switch.  Getting cheaper all the time.

And hopefully one 
day not too far off SMA will bring their "Backup Set S" they show in 
their European catalog to the States- this is basically a 2.2 KW version
 of the Sunny Island - 2 of them would achieve 120/240 stacked and be a 
nice cheaper SB enabler as well.

Also your standard 100 AMP 4 
pole DPDT transfer switch may not be rated for 600 VDC explicitly but 
think of it - the old knife style units "throw" is like 12" - no way 
that won't work with 600 VDC.

Hope that helps!,

Jeff





Larry
 Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is 
limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend.  With my 
idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, PV feeds HV 
CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a transfer switch. No 
rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or dual inverters. No 
relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are always properly 
maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple.  Thanks for your input. Now if I can 
just find that darn 600 volt transfer switch. Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote: 
>Any amount of power will AC couple.   If you use an off grid inverter, such as 
>an Outback, to feed the protected load panel, the inverter should be fed by 
>grid AC power to supply loads, when the grid is available.  Just feed  your 
>grid tie inverter into the protected loads panel.   You will need a relay to 
>shut off power from the grid tie inverter when the batteries are full.  This 
>can be triggered by the fan relay in the Outback.  The on grid inverter will 
>push power into the grid through the battery inverter's internal transfer 
>switch during normal operation and AC couple when the power is out.  If your 
>grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will need to use a transformer or two 
>inverters.   The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a 
>transfer switch to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid 
>availability, keeping the inverter turned off.  AC coupling seems much easier 
>than using a charge controller, but there is no
 conditioning of the batteries.  The charge is just on and off at the voltage 
set point. For a back up system, that is not much of a problem, as the battery 
inverter can maintain the batteries when power is available.  At 02:04 PM 
11/9/2011, you wrote: 
>>Nice Find, Drake! Thanks.  What is the minimum system for an AC coupled 
>>inverter?  Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid 
>>tie. The AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and 
>>many components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution 
>>compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC. Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems 
>___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & 
etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: 
www.members.re-wrenc

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Drake]

The GENTRAN sounds very interesting.  The Internet has some for sale, 
but so far no detail.   Will the 12 circuit panel shed one circuit at 
a time?   In a nutshell, how does this work?



Thanks,

Drake



At 02:32 AM 11/10/2011, you wrote:

Hi Wrenchies,

Yes and if you use a GENTRAN or equivalent circuit-by-circuit 
transfer switch add-on for the output from the offgrid inverter to 
your AC panel -  then there is no need for a separate dedicated AC 
loads panel and rewire like in Larry's original drawing.  I've used 
this trick for years to avoid a dedicated subpanel for the output of 
an off-grid inverter.  Combined with the DC transfer switch idea 
that high voltage MPPTs enable,  (we've been waiting for this) you 
have a really simple retrofit for an on-grid system.


And now with Magnum and others offering low-power 120/240 split 
phase outputs in one inverter - the grid-tie hybrid retrofit market 
is getting more attractive all the time.  DC Transfer Switch to MPPT 
Charger to 120/240 split phase inverter/battery to GENTRAN 
Switch.  Getting cheaper all the time.


And hopefully one day not too far off SMA will bring their "Backup 
Set S" they show in their European catalog to the States- this is 
basically a 2.2 KW version of the Sunny Island - 2 of them would 
achieve 120/240 stacked and be a nice cheaper SB enabler as well.


Also your standard 100 AMP 4 pole DPDT transfer switch may not be 
rated for 600 VDC explicitly but think of it - the old knife style 
units "throw" is like 12" - no way that won't work with 600 VDC.


Hope that helps!,

Jeff





Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:


Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The 
Outback is limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would 
need to spend.


With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid 
is down, PV feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with 
or without a transfer switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 
volt transformers or dual inverters. No relays, switches or 
diversion controllers. Batteries are always properly maintained. No 
phantom loads. Very simple.


Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt 
transfer switch.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:



Any amount of power will AC couple.

If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the 
protected load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power 
to supply loads, when the grid is available.  Just feed  your grid 
tie inverter into the protected loads panel.   You will need a 
relay to shut off power from the grid tie inverter when the 
batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay in the Outback.


The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the 
battery inverter's internal transfer switch during normal 
operation and AC couple when the power is out.  If your grid tie 
inverter is 240 volts, you will need to use a transformer or two inverters.


The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a 
transfer switch to send PV power straight to the grid, during 
normal grid availability, keeping the inverter turned off.  AC 
coupling seems much easier than using a charge controller, but 
there is no conditioning of the batteries.  The charge is just on 
and off at the voltage set point. For a back up system, that is 
not much of a problem, as the battery inverter can maintain the 
batteries when power is available.




At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:


Nice Find, Drake! Thanks.

What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter?

Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing 
grid tie. The AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a 
major rewire and many components. I would like to hear if someone 
has a simple add on solution compared to just switching the array 
to the high voltage CC.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Wrenchies,

Yes and if you use a GENTRAN or equivalent circuit-by-circuit transfer 
switch add-on for the output from the offgrid inverter to your AC panel 
-  then there is no need for a separate dedicated AC loads panel and 
rewire like in Larry's original drawing.  I've used this trick for years 
to avoid a dedicated subpanel for the output of an off-grid inverter.  
Combined with the DC transfer switch idea that high voltage MPPTs 
enable,  (we've been waiting for this) you have a really simple retrofit 
for an on-grid system.


And now with Magnum and others offering low-power 120/240 split phase 
outputs in one inverter - the grid-tie hybrid retrofit market is getting 
more attractive all the time.  DC Transfer Switch to MPPT Charger to 
120/240 split phase inverter/battery to GENTRAN Switch.  Getting cheaper 
all the time.


And hopefully one day not too far off SMA will bring their "Backup Set 
S" they show in their European catalog to the States- this is basically 
a 2.2 KW version of the Sunny Island - 2 of them would achieve 120/240 
stacked and be a nice cheaper SB enabler as well.


Also your standard 100 AMP 4 pole DPDT transfer switch may not be rated 
for 600 VDC explicitly but think of it - the old knife style units 
"throw" is like 12" - no way that won't work with 600 VDC.


Hope that helps!,

Jeff





Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is 
limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend.

With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, PV 
feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a transfer 
switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or dual 
inverters. No relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are always 
properly maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple.

Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer 
switch.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:


Any amount of power will AC couple.

If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the protected load 
panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply loads, when the 
grid is available.  Just feed  your grid tie inverter into the protected loads 
panel.   You will need a relay to shut off power from the grid tie inverter 
when the batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay in the 
Outback.

The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery 
inverter's internal transfer switch during normal operation and AC couple when 
the power is out.  If your grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will need to use 
a transformer or two inverters.

The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a transfer switch 
to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid availability, keeping 
the inverter turned off.  AC coupling seems much easier than using a charge 
controller, but there is no conditioning of the batteries.  The charge is just 
on and off at the voltage set point. For a back up system, that is not much of 
a problem, as the battery inverter can maintain the batteries when power is 
available.



At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:

Nice Find, Drake! Thanks.

What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter?

Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The AC 
coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many components. 
I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution compared to just 
switching the array to the high voltage CC.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Darryl Thayer]

this is a 240 volt transfer switch and also shown is a 600 volt safety switch 
single pole single throw




From: "maver...@mavericksolar.com" 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery  backup


I googled "600 volt switch dual throw" and found a cutler-hammer DT363URK.

From http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/EATON_CUTLER_HAMMER/416-0447.PDF

Not sure if it carries a DC rating all the way to 600v. 

 
 




Thank you,

Maverick


Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®
President & CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
Office:     512-919-4493
Cell:        512-460-9825
Sent from my HondaJet!

On Nov 9, 2011, at 6:07 PM, "Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:


Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is 
limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend. 
>
>With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, PV 
>feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a transfer 
>switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or dual 
>inverters. No relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are always 
>properly maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple. 
>
>Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer 
>switch.
>
>Larry Crutcher
>Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:
>
>
>Any amount of power will AC couple.  
>>
>
>>
>If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the protected 
>load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply loads, when 
>the grid is available.  Just feed  your grid tie inverter into the protected 
>loads panel.   You will need a relay to shut off power from the grid tie 
>inverter when the batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay 
>in the Outback. 
>>
>
>>
>The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery 
>inverter's internal transfer switch during normal operation and AC couple when 
>the power is out.  If your grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will need to 
>use a transformer or two inverters.  
>>
>
>>
>The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a transfer switch 
>to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid availability, 
>keeping the inverter turned off.  AC coupling seems much easier than using a 
>charge controller, but there is no conditioning of the batteries.  The charge 
>is just on and off at the voltage set point. For a back up system, that is not 
>much of a problem, as the battery inverter can maintain the batteries when 
>power is available. 
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>>
>Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. 
>>>
>
>>>
>What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? 
>>>
>
>>>
>Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The AC 
>coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many 
>components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution 
>compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC.
>>>
>
>>>
>Larry Crutcher
>>>
>Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>>___
>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Options & settings:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List-Archive: 
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List rules & etiquette:
>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>Check out participant bios:
>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[maver...@mavericksolar.com]

I googled "600 volt switch dual throw" and found a cutler-hammer DT363URK.

From 
http://www.alliedelec.com/Images/Products/Datasheets/BM/EATON_CUTLER_HAMMER/416-0447.PDF

Not sure if it carries a DC rating all the way to 600v. 


 



Thank you,

Maverick


Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®
President & CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
Office: 512-919-4493
Cell:512-460-9825

Sent from my HondaJet!

On Nov 9, 2011, at 6:07 PM, "Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
 wrote:

> Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is 
> limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend. 
> 
> With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, 
> PV feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a 
> transfer switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or 
> dual inverters. No relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are 
> always properly maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple. 
> 
> Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer 
> switch.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:
> 
>> Any amount of power will AC couple.  
>> 
>> If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the protected 
>> load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply loads, 
>> when the grid is available.  Just feed  your grid tie inverter into the 
>> protected loads panel.   You will need a relay to shut off power from the 
>> grid tie inverter when the batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the 
>> fan relay in the Outback. 
>> 
>> The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery 
>> inverter's internal transfer switch during normal operation and AC couple 
>> when the power is out.  If your grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will 
>> need to use a transformer or two inverters.  
>> 
>> The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a transfer 
>> switch to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid 
>> availability, keeping the inverter turned off.  AC coupling seems much 
>> easier than using a charge controller, but there is no conditioning of the 
>> batteries.  The charge is just on and off at the voltage set point. For a 
>> back up system, that is not much of a problem, as the battery inverter can 
>> maintain the batteries when power is available. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>>> Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. 
>>> 
>>> What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? 
>>> 
>>> Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The 
>>> AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many 
>>> components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution 
>>> compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC.
>>> 
>>> Larry Crutcher
>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Right a major rewire and many components...and sacrifices. The Outback is 
limited to 30 amps AC and cost much more than you would need to spend. 

With my idea you just add a transfer switchDone. When the grid is down, PV 
feeds HV CC. Then you can use ANY size inverter, with or without a transfer 
switch. No rewiring the grid inverter. No 240 volt transformers or dual 
inverters. No relays, switches or diversion controllers. Batteries are always 
properly maintained. No phantom loads. Very simple. 

Thanks for your input. Now if I can just find that darn 600 volt transfer 
switch.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 9, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Drake wrote:

> Any amount of power will AC couple.  
> 
> If you use an off grid inverter, such as an Outback, to feed the protected 
> load panel, the inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply loads, when 
> the grid is available.  Just feed  your grid tie inverter into the protected 
> loads panel.   You will need a relay to shut off power from the grid tie 
> inverter when the batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay 
> in the Outback. 
> 
> The on grid inverter will push power into the grid through the battery 
> inverter's internal transfer switch during normal operation and AC couple 
> when the power is out.  If your grid tie inverter is 240 volts, you will need 
> to use a transformer or two inverters.  
> 
> The phantom load of the inverter can be eliminated by using a transfer switch 
> to send PV power straight to the grid, during normal grid availability, 
> keeping the inverter turned off.  AC coupling seems much easier than using a 
> charge controller, but there is no conditioning of the batteries.  The charge 
> is just on and off at the voltage set point. For a back up system, that is 
> not much of a problem, as the battery inverter can maintain the batteries 
> when power is available. 
> 
> 
> 
> At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
>> Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. 
>> 
>> What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? 
>> 
>> Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The 
>> AC coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many 
>> components. I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution 
>> compared to just switching the array to the high voltage CC.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Drake]

Any amount of power will AC couple.

If you use an off grid inverter, such as an 
Outback, to feed the protected load panel, the 
inverter should be fed by grid AC power to supply 
loads, when the grid is available.  Just 
feed  your grid tie inverter into the protected 
loads panel.   You will need a relay to shut off 
power from the grid tie inverter when the 
batteries are full.  This can be triggered by the fan relay in the Outback.


The on grid inverter will push power into the 
grid through the battery inverter's internal 
transfer switch during normal operation and AC 
couple when the power is out.  If your grid tie 
inverter is 240 volts, you will need to use a transformer or two inverters.


The phantom load of the inverter can be 
eliminated by using a transfer switch to send PV 
power straight to the grid, during normal grid 
availability, keeping the inverter turned 
off.  AC coupling seems much easier than using a 
charge controller, but there is no conditioning 
of the batteries.  The charge is just on and off 
at the voltage set point. For a back up system, 
that is not much of a problem, as the battery 
inverter can maintain the batteries when power is available.




At 02:04 PM 11/9/2011, you wrote:

Nice Find, Drake! Thanks.

What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter?

Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup 
of an existing grid tie. The AC coupled 
schematics I have looked at require a major 
rewire and many components. I would like to hear 
if someone has a simple add on solution compared 
to just switching the array to the high voltage CC.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 9, 2011, at 6:14 AM, Drake wrote:



I vote for the AC coupled system.  But if you 
need to make a 600 VDC transfer switch, I think 
you could likely make one from Tyco relays and 
voltage controlled relays.  http://relays.te.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf


At 03:16 PM 11/7/2011, you wrote:

Ray,
Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add 
battery backup to existing high voltage PV 
grid tie systems, not new construction.


The second inverter does not need to be able 
to sell since that is handled by the grid tie 
inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads 
and maintains the battery. That means any 
off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost 
separate inverters and chargers may be used, a 
very economical solution. However, the idea 
may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Just curious, what's the advantage of 
switching at the array vs. just using a Sunny 
Island or Outback system? Seems this would 
cost more, and have less efficiency, since 
you would still have the battery float 
losses, backup inverter idle losses, in 
addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. 
Are there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery 
backup, so I'm always up for new ideas though.


Ray


On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, 
Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hi Glen,
That model is a disconnect switch. What the 
system needs is a 4 pole transfer switch, 
automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge controller.


Hello Gary Willit,
Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and 
I agree, getting a high voltage DC transfer 
switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite Solar to build.




Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A

-Glenn

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 



List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


Drake Chamberlin
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Options & settings:

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units; Adding battery backup

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Nice Find, Drake! Thanks. 

What is the minimum system for an AC coupled inverter? 

Again, the idea is for low cost battery backup of an existing grid tie. The AC 
coupled schematics I have looked at require a major rewire and many components. 
I would like to hear if someone has a simple add on solution compared to just 
switching the array to the high voltage CC.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 9, 2011, at 6:14 AM, Drake wrote:

> 
> I vote for the AC coupled system.  But if you need to make a 600 VDC transfer 
> switch, I think you could likely make one from Tyco relays and voltage 
> controlled relays.  http://relays.te.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf
> 
> At 03:16 PM 11/7/2011, you wrote:
>> Ray,
>> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high 
>> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
>> 
>> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled 
>> by the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains 
>> the battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost 
>> separate inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. 
>> However, the idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a 
>> transfer switch.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:
>> 
>>> Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using 
>>> a Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less 
>>> efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup 
>>> inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are 
>>> there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
>>> I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for 
>>> new ideas though.
>>> 
>>> Ray
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote: 
 Hi Glen,  
 That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole 
 transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the 
 charge controller.
 
 Hello Gary Willit, 
 Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high 
 voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for 
 Midnite Solar to build.
 
 
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
 
 
 On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:
 
> Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
> Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A
>  
> -Glenn
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> 
>>> Options & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>>> 
>>> List-Archive: 
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> 
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>> 
>>> Check out participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Options & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> Drake Chamberlin 
> ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO license 3773
> NABCEP Certified PV
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Drake]

I vote for the AC coupled system.  But if you 
need to make a 600 VDC transfer switch, I think 
you could likely make one from Tyco relays and 
voltage controlled relays.  http://relays.te.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf


At 03:16 PM 11/7/2011, you wrote:

Ray,
Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add 
battery backup to existing high voltage PV grid 
tie systems, not new construction.


The second inverter does not need to be able to 
sell since that is handled by the grid tie 
inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads 
and maintains the battery. That means any 
off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost 
separate inverters and chargers may be used, a 
very economical solution. However, the idea may 
be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

Just curious, what's the advantage of switching 
at the array vs. just using a Sunny Island or 
Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and 
have less efficiency, since you would still 
have the battery float losses, backup inverter 
idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie 
inverter losses. Are there site specific 
conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery 
backup, so I'm always up for new ideas though.


Ray


On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hi Glen,
That model is a disconnect switch. What the 
system needs is a 4 pole transfer switch, 
automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge controller.


Hello Gary Willit,
Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I 
agree, getting a high voltage DC transfer 
switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite Solar to build.




Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A

-Glenn

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org


Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


Drake Chamberlin
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Marv Dargatz]

As long as an appropriately sized and rated OCPD is used on the input and/or 
output circuit of both devices, it shouldn't be a problem.

If it is a problem, it is with the testing certification process, and the 
standard needs to be fixed, or the testing laboratory needs to re-evaluate 
their interpretation of the existing standard.


See ya!

Marv
Director of Technology and Support, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
Tech Support North America:  +877.360.5292
Mobile: +530.392.0356

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 7:22 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Caution!!! if you parallel the imput of both the inverter and terh charge 
controller one or the other will be destroyed.  ASk BoB if you parallel on teh 
input either charge controllers or inverters one or the other dies. or both.

From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Dick,
I had that thought as well but it leaves open the possibility of paralleling 
the grid inverter and charge controller. What effect that will have is yet to 
be explored.

This idea originated for my personal residence in Yuma which has 4400 watts of 
PV. We leave that home for several months in the summer but want to protect our 
frozen foods from power outage after having lost big $$ in ruined food. So I 
could employ the double disconnect if the AHJ will accept it but I have high 
reservations in selling that method to others.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:

> I may be missing something here.. but, for a manual switching solution, 
> why
> not use two standard 600V DC discos. Put the PV to the top of both, load side 
> of
> one goes to the battery inverter, load side of the other to the grid tied
> inverter. Turn one off, turn the other one on. Not as elegant as a transfer
> switch, maybe more expensive, but seems dirt simple and available now.
>
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
>
>
> --- You wrote:
> Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles  in series of a
> 300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v
> rated equipment.
>
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com<mailto:r...@solarray.com>
> Solar Engineer
>
>
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> wrote:
>
>> Ray,
>> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high
> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
>>
>> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by
> the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the
> battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate
> inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the
> idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.
>>
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org<http://www.members.re-wrenches.org>







This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer 
viruses.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for 
the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may 
contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure 
or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not 
the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible 
for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply 
immediately to the sender.
P  Please think of the environment before printing this email

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Darryl Thayer]

Caution!!! if you parallel the imput of both the inverter and terh charge 
controller one or the other will be destroyed.  ASk BoB if you parallel on teh 
input either charge controllers or inverters one or the other dies. or both.  




From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems" 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Dick,
I had that thought as well but it leaves open the possibility of paralleling 
the grid inverter and charge controller. What effect that will have is yet to 
be explored.

This idea originated for my personal residence in Yuma which has 4400 watts of 
PV. We leave that home for several months in the summer but want to protect our 
frozen foods from power outage after having lost big $$ in ruined food. So I 
could employ the double disconnect if the AHJ will accept it but I have high 
reservations in selling that method to others.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:

> I may be missing something here.. but, for a manual switching solution, 
> why
> not use two standard 600V DC discos. Put the PV to the top of both, load side 
> of
> one goes to the battery inverter, load side of the other to the grid tied
> inverter. Turn one off, turn the other one on. Not as elegant as a transfer
> switch, maybe more expensive, but seems dirt simple and available now.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
> Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles  in series of a
> 300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v
> rated equipment.
> 
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
> 
> 
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> wrote:
> 
>> Ray,
>> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high
> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
>> 
>> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by
> the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the
> battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate
> inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the
> idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Dick,
I had that thought as well but it leaves open the possibility of paralleling 
the grid inverter and charge controller. What effect that will have is yet to 
be explored.

This idea originated for my personal residence in Yuma which has 4400 watts of 
PV. We leave that home for several months in the summer but want to protect our 
frozen foods from power outage after having lost big $$ in ruined food. So I 
could employ the double disconnect if the AHJ will accept it but I have high 
reservations in selling that method to others.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Richard L Ratico wrote:

> I may be missing something here.. but, for a manual switching solution, 
> why
> not use two standard 600V DC discos. Put the PV to the top of both, load side 
> of
> one goes to the battery inverter, load side of the other to the grid tied
> inverter. Turn one off, turn the other one on. Not as elegant as a transfer
> switch, maybe more expensive, but seems dirt simple and available now.
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
> Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles  in series of a
> 300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v
> rated equipment.
> 
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
> 
> 
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems 
> wrote:
> 
>> Ray,
>> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high
> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
>> 
>> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by
> the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the
> battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate
> inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the
> idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Richard L Ratico]

I may be missing something here.. but, for a manual switching solution, why
not use two standard 600V DC discos. Put the PV to the top of both, load side of
one goes to the battery inverter, load side of the other to the grid tied
inverter. Turn one off, turn the other one on. Not as elegant as a transfer
switch, maybe more expensive, but seems dirt simple and available now.

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles  in series of a
300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v
rated equipment.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Ray,
> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high
voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
> 
> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by
the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the
battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate
inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the
idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:
> 
>> Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using a
Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less
efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup inverter
idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are there site
specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
>> I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for new
ideas though.
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Glen, 
>>> That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole
transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge
controller.
>>> 
>>> Hello Gary Willit, 
>>> Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high voltage
DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite Solar
to build.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Larry Crutcher
>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:
>>> 
 Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
 Their VBII series like HNF361PV - 30A
  
 -Glenn
>>> 
--- end of quote ---
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

On 11/7/2011 11:15 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hi Glen,
That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole 
transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the 
charge controller.


Hello Gary Willit,
Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high 
voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product 
for Midnite Solar to build.



We've been thinking  about a 600V controller for years that would 
automatically charge your batteries when the grid goes down.


We don't know if that's the best use for our limited resource of 9 
engineers.


But how big is this market I wonder ??

boB







Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
Their VBII series like HNF361PV -- 30A
-Glenn




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[R Ray Walters]

Could you use the old Dankoff trick of running through 2 poles  in series of a 
300 v rated switch? That used to be approved, before we had all these 600 v 
rated equipment.

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Nov 7, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

> Ray,
> Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high 
> voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.
> 
> The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by 
> the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the 
> battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate 
> inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the 
> idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:
> 
>> Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using 
>> a Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less 
>> efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup 
>> inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are 
>> there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
>> I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for new 
>> ideas though.
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Glen, 
>>> That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole 
>>> transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the 
>>> charge controller.
>>> 
>>> Hello Gary Willit, 
>>> Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high 
>>> voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for 
>>> Midnite Solar to build.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Larry Crutcher
>>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:
>>> 
 Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
 Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A
  
 -Glenn
>>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Options & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ray,
Yes, the idea was for a low cost way to add battery backup to existing high 
voltage PV grid tie systems, not new construction.

The second inverter does not need to be able to sell since that is handled by 
the grid tie inverter. It simple passes grid power to loads and maintains the 
battery. That means any off-grid inverter/charger or even low cost separate 
inverters and chargers may be used, a very economical solution. However, the 
idea may be of no value because it appears no one makes a transfer switch.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Nov 7, 2011, at 11:32 AM, Ray Walters wrote:

> Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just using a 
> Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and have less 
> efficiency, since you would still have the battery float losses, backup 
> inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie inverter losses. Are 
> there site specific conditions driving this that I'm not understanding?
> I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for new 
> ideas though.
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
> On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Glen, 
>> That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole 
>> transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge 
>> controller.
>> 
>> Hello Gary Willit, 
>> Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high voltage 
>> DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite 
>> Solar to build.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Larry Crutcher
>> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:
>> 
>>> Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
>>> Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A
>>>  
>>> -Glenn
>> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Ray Walters]

Just curious, what's the advantage of switching at the array vs. just 
using a Sunny Island or Outback system? Seems this would cost more, and 
have less efficiency, since you would still have the battery float 
losses, backup inverter idle losses, in addition to the 2nd grid tie 
inverter losses. Are there site specific conditions driving this that 
I'm not understanding?
I've done quite a few GT systems w/ battery backup, so I'm always up for 
new ideas though.


Ray


On 11/7/2011 12:15 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Hi Glen,
That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole 
transfer switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the 
charge controller.


Hello Gary Willit,
Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high 
voltage DC transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product 
for Midnite Solar to build.




Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:


Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
Their VBII series like HNF361PV -- 30A
-Glenn


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Glen, 
That model is a disconnect switch. What the system needs is a 4 pole transfer 
switch, automatic or manual, to connect the PV source to the charge controller.

Hello Gary Willit, 
Yes, you've grasped my concept precisely and I agree, getting a high voltage DC 
transfer switch may nix this design. Sounds like a product for Midnite Solar to 
build.



Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Nov 6, 2011, at 1:42 PM, Glenn Burt wrote:

> Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.
> Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A
>  
> -Glenn

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Darryl Thayer]

Larry. I have used a 600 VAC transfer switch from Sq. D I never had needed for 
it to be DC; however the insides are similar to the 600 VAC-VDC, it snaps open 
and snaps closed in both positions.  I will ask my SQ D supplier, he is usually 
good. 
 
BTW Nice idea, thanks.  
DT  



From: "la...@starlightsolar.com" 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units


With 4800 watts and HV input, it seems to me that a simple battery backup can 
be formed from an existing PV grid tie system. Block diagram attached. Where 
can one find a 600 volt rated DC transfer switch?

Larry
 
 Original Message 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
>From: John DeBoever 
>Date: Sat, November 05, 2011 6:09 am
>To: "'re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'"
>
>
>Todd,
>It is 2,560 Wp for 24V battery banks and 4,800 Wp for 48V battery banks.
>John
> 
>
>From: toddc...@finestplanet.com [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] 
>Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 12:42 AM
>To: RE-wrenches  
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units 
> 
> what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)  
>todd
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Glenn Burt]

Siemens makes a line that are UL listed.

Their VBII series like HNF361PV – 30A

 

-Glenn

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
la...@starlightsolar.com
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 2:45 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

 

With 4800 watts and HV input, it seems to me that a simple battery backup can 
be formed from an existing PV grid tie system. Block diagram attached. Where 
can one find a 600 volt rated DC transfer switch?



 

Larry

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
From: John DeBoever 
Date: Sat, November 05, 2011 6:09 am
To: "'re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'"


Todd,
It is 2,560 Wp for 24V battery banks and 4,800 Wp for 48V battery banks.
John
 

From: toddc...@finestplanet.com [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 12:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches  
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units 
 

what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)

todd

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[larry]

With 4800 watts and HV input, it seems to me that a simple battery backup can be formed from an existing PV grid tie system. Block diagram attached. Where can one find a 600 volt rated DC transfer switch?Larry


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
From: John DeBoever 
Date: Sat, November 05, 2011 6:09 am
To: "'re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'"


 Todd, It is 2,560 Wp for 24V battery banks and 4,800 Wp for 48V battery banks. John    From: toddc...@finestplanet.com [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com]  Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 12:42 AM To: RE-wrenches   Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units      what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)   todd   



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[John DeBoever]

Todd,
It is 2,560 Wp for 24V battery banks and 4,800 Wp for 48V battery banks.
John

From: toddc...@finestplanet.com [mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 12:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units


what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)



todd







On Friday, November 4, 2011 4:12pm, "John DeBoever" 
 said:


> Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to 
> 600 V.
>
> John
> Trojan Battery Company
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches' 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
> year.
>
> This unit will run up to 600 Volts.
>
> In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
> 150 VDC from the array.
>
> I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
> back to the inverter.
>
> Trying to keep cable costs down.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Carl Emerson
> Freepower
> Auckland NZ.
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain
> information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.
> It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended
> to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not
> the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication
> in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed
> above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all
> copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>



Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.  
It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended 
to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not 
the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this 
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication 
in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed 
above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all 
copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]]

It is 80 amp output, so more like 80 x 60 volts = 4800 watts

I am installing my first 5 next week so I will send a report. 

Thank you,

Maverick


Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®
President & CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
Office: 512-919-4493
Cell:512-460-9825

Sent from an iPhone. 

On Nov 4, 2011, at 11:42 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:

> what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)
>  
> todd
>  
>  
>  
> On Friday, November 4, 2011 4:12pm, "John DeBoever" 
>  said:
> 
> > Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to 
> > 600 V.
> > 
> > John
> > Trojan Battery Company
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
> > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
> > To: 'RE-wrenches' 
> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
> > 
> > Hi there,
> > 
> > I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
> > year.
> > 
> > This unit will run up to 600 Volts.
> > 
> > In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
> > 150 VDC from the array.
> > 
> > I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
> > back to the inverter.
> > 
> > Trying to keep cable costs down.
> > 
> > Many Thanks,
> > 
> > Carl Emerson
> > Freepower
> > Auckland NZ.
> > 
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> > 
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > Options & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > List-Archive: 
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > List rules & etiquette:
> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> > 
> > Check out participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain
> > information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.
> > It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was 
> > intended
> > to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not
> > the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of 
> > this
> > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this 
> > communication
> > in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed
> > above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and 
> > all
> > copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> > 
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > Options & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > List-Archive: 
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> > 
> > List rules & etiquette:
> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> > 
> > Check out participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[toddcory]

what is the max wattage the unit can handle? (it can't be 80 X 600?)
 
todd
 
 
 
On Friday, November 4, 2011 4:12pm, "John DeBoever" 
 said:



> Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to 
> 600 V.
> 
> John
> Trojan Battery Company
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches' 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
> year.
> 
> This unit will run up to 600 Volts.
> 
> In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
> 150 VDC from the array.
> 
> I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
> back to the inverter.
> 
> Trying to keep cable costs down.
> 
> Many Thanks,
> 
> Carl Emerson
> Freepower
> Auckland NZ.
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> 
> 
> This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain
> information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.
> It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended
> to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not
> the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this
> communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication
> in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed
> above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all
> copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.
> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Carl Emerson]

Hi Ray and Dan,

Thanks for that, the bank is 48V so that sounds like a very good solution.

Carl Emerson
Free Power Co.
Land line +64 9 473 4286
Mobile +64 22 630 9689
Email   emer...@freepower.co.nz
Web   www.freepower.co.nz


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: 5 November 2011 12:37 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Midnite Solar has the Classic 250, which can go to at least 250 v array 
open circuit plus it has an additional emergency voltage head room that 
is equal to the battery voltage. So if you had a 48 v battery, you could 
go to 298 vdc Open circuit (in extreme cold for instance) without 
damage. The Classic controller shuts off above 250 v though, so you 
don't want to design the system to operate that high, but it does give 
you some breathing room with the design.
Also on the "overkill" issue of a 1 Kw array, it all depends on the 
battery voltage. At 24 v battery, the Classic 250 can handle a maximum 
of 1722 watts. Personally I've found controllers seem to last longer 
when over sized, rather than over loaded.

Ray Walters
Solarray, Inc.

On 11/4/2011 5:22 PM, Carl Emerson wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Yes I have seen this one thanks.
>
> I should have mentioned that the array will be about 1 kW so a unit that
> size is overkill...
>
> Carl Emerson
> Free Power Co.
> Web   www.freepower.co.nz
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John
> DeBoever
> Sent: 5 November 2011 12:13 p.m.
> To: 're-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
>
> Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to
> 600 V.
>
> John
> Trojan Battery Company
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit
next
> year.
>
> This unit will run up to 600 Volts.
>
> In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
> 150 VDC from the array.
>
> I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing
AC
> back to the inverter.
>
> Trying to keep cable costs down.
>
> Many Thanks,
>
> Carl Emerson
> Freepower
> Auckland NZ.
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options&  settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules&  etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain
> information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from
disclosure.
>
> It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was
> intended
> to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are
not
>
> the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of
> this
> communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
> communication
> in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number
listed
> above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and
> all
> copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options&  settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules&  etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
> __ NOD32 6602 (2004) Information __
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options&  settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> L

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Ray Walters]

Midnite Solar has the Classic 250, which can go to at least 250 v array 
open circuit plus it has an additional emergency voltage head room that 
is equal to the battery voltage. So if you had a 48 v battery, you could 
go to 298 vdc Open circuit (in extreme cold for instance) without 
damage. The Classic controller shuts off above 250 v though, so you 
don't want to design the system to operate that high, but it does give 
you some breathing room with the design.
Also on the "overkill" issue of a 1 Kw array, it all depends on the 
battery voltage. At 24 v battery, the Classic 250 can handle a maximum 
of 1722 watts. Personally I've found controllers seem to last longer 
when over sized, rather than over loaded.


Ray Walters
Solarray, Inc.

On 11/4/2011 5:22 PM, Carl Emerson wrote:

Hi John,

Yes I have seen this one thanks.

I should have mentioned that the array will be about 1 kW so a unit that
size is overkill...

Carl Emerson
Free Power Co.
Web   www.freepower.co.nz


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John
DeBoever
Sent: 5 November 2011 12:13 p.m.
To: 're-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to
600 V.

John
Trojan Battery Company

- Original Message -
From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Hi there,

I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
year.

This unit will run up to 600 Volts.

In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
150 VDC from the array.

I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
back to the inverter.

Trying to keep cable costs down.

Many Thanks,

Carl Emerson
Freepower
Auckland NZ.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain
information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.

It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was
intended
to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not

the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of
this
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication
in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed
above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and
all
copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


__ NOD32 6602 (2004) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org






___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Dan Fink]

The Midnight Classic is available in 200 and 250 volt models.

Dan Fink
Executive Director;
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ accredited Continuing Education Providers
http://www.buckville.com/
i...@buckville.com
970.672.4342 (voicemail)
970.373.1311 (fax)


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Carl Emerson]

Hi John,

Yes I have seen this one thanks.

I should have mentioned that the array will be about 1 kW so a unit that
size is overkill...

Carl Emerson
Free Power Co.
Web   www.freepower.co.nz


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John
DeBoever
Sent: 5 November 2011 12:13 p.m.
To: 're-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to
600 V.

John
Trojan Battery Company

- Original Message -
From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Hi there,

I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
year.

This unit will run up to 600 Volts.

In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
150 VDC from the array.

I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
back to the inverter.

Trying to keep cable costs down.

Many Thanks,

Carl Emerson
Freepower
Auckland NZ.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.

It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was
intended 
to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not

the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of
this 
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this
communication 
in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed 
above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and
all 
copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


__ NOD32 6602 (2004) Information __

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[John DeBoever]

Schneider Electric just launched their MPPT 80-600, which is a 80A , up to 600 
V.

John
Trojan Battery Company

- Original Message -
From: Carl Emerson [mailto:freepo...@freepower.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:08 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

Hi there,

I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
year.

This unit will run up to 600 Volts.

In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
150 VDC from the array.

I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
back to the inverter.

Trying to keep cable costs down.

Many Thanks,

Carl Emerson
Freepower
Auckland NZ.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.  
It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended 
to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not 
the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this 
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication 
in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed 
above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all 
copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] High Voltage MPPT units

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

I have heard that Morningstar are bringing out a high voltage MPPT unit next
year.

This unit will run up to 600 Volts.

In the mean time what other units are available that allow for higher than
150 VDC from the array.

I want to avoid the expense of using a Sunnyboy at the array and bringing AC
back to the inverter.

Trying to keep cable costs down.

Many Thanks,

Carl Emerson
Freepower
Auckland NZ.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org