Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Dave,
I'm pretty sure I have not done that test. I'm not currently in sure and
won't be for a couple of weeks, but maybe I can try it remotely. Went would
disabling the charger make a difference with an AC coupled backfeed issue?
Thanks,
Howie

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023, 10:45 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hey Howie, Can't remember but did you try disabling the charger in XW+ for a 
> pulsation test ?
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-07-23 9:37 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Don,
> Thanks, but this is not the issue here.  The fluctuations happen anytime
> the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just when the
> batteries are full.  The frequency only changes about 1/10 of a herz when
> it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of the batteries,
> the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric Bentsen, we shut
> off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency shifting - this made no
> difference.  We do have a contactor installed that disconnects the inverter
> from AC when the voltage starts elevating past the charge voltage and it
> has worked well for years. If I set up an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop
> system in the future, I'm thinking that I would look to disconnect the DC
> input as the batteries reach charged voltage - generally an easier cycling
> for the system to endure. There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array
> in this system which takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries
> through a charge controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past,
> only having any issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator
> charging load set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by
> simply turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light
> fluctuations stopped.
> Howie
>
> On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com <
> d...@energysolarnow.com> wrote:
>
> Howie-
>  it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting
> frequency, and the loads don't like it.
> When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC
> coupled solar power to go.
> This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as
> a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy.
> Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that.
> Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.
>
> DonBarch
> Energy Solar
>
> From: Howie Michaelson 
> To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
> Message-ID:
>  ooj_p0_a_sjyvw7_-+8kc9yvfsnm9pkwvgk-xnjx...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
> HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
> The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
> causing this issue.
>
> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
> high voltage Charge Controller?
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Hey Howie, Can't remember but did you try disabling the charger in XW+ 
for a pulsation test ?


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-07-23 9:37 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


Don,
Thanks, but this is not the issue here.  The fluctuations happen 
anytime the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just 
when the batteries are full.  The frequency only changes about 1/10 of 
a herz when it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of 
the batteries, the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric 
Bentsen, we shut off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency 
shifting - this made no difference.  We do have a contactor installed 
that disconnects the inverter from AC when the voltage starts elevating 
past the charge voltage and it has worked well for years. If I set up 
an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop system in the future, I'm thinking 
that I would look to disconnect the DC input as the batteries reach 
charged voltage - generally an easier cycling for the system to endure. 
There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array in this system which 
takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries through a charge 
controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past, only having any 
issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator charging load 
set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by simply 
turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light 
fluctuations stopped.


Howie

On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com [1] 
 wrote:



Howie-
it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting 
frequency, and the loads don't like it.


When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that 
AC coupled solar power to go.


This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as 
simple as a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess 
energy.
Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. 
Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.


DonBarch
Energy Solar

From: Howie Michaelson 
To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. 
It
turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled 
SolarEdge
HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with 
higher
output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current 
through
the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in 
direct
proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the 
house,
regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an 
oscilloscope,
but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the 
SolarEdge
is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not 
producing.
The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both 
the
lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge 
production

is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
causing this issue.

Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any 
suggestions
for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a 
Schneider

high voltage Charge Controller?
Thanks,
Howie


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Links:
--
[1] http://energysolarnow.com___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Don,
Thanks, but this is not the issue here.  The fluctuations happen anytime
the AC coupled inverter connects to the XW+'s "grid", not just when the
batteries are full.  The frequency only changes about 1/10 of a herz when
it connects, but it doesn't matter what the voltage is of the batteries,
the pulsation starts. Going over the settings with Eric Bentsen, we shut
off the AC coupled option to prevent the frequency shifting - this made no
difference.  We do have a contactor installed that disconnects the inverter
from AC when the voltage starts elevating past the charge voltage and it
has worked well for years. If I set up an AC coupled Off-Grid open loop
system in the future, I'm thinking that I would look to disconnect the DC
input as the batteries reach charged voltage - generally an easier cycling
for the system to endure. There is also a smaller, legacy DC coupled array
in this system which takes care of the finishing charge of the batteries
through a charge controller. Again, it has all worked well in the past,
only having any issues with AC fluctuations due to having the generator
charging load set too high for the existing generator. This was solved by
simply turning down the charge rate of the batteries and the visible light
fluctuations stopped.
Howie


On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 11:42 PM don energysolarnow.com <
d...@energysolarnow.com> wrote:

> Howie-
>  it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting
> frequency, and the loads don't like it.
> When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC
> coupled solar power to go.
> This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as
> a dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy.
> Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that.
> Heat up a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.
>
> DonBarch
> Energy Solar
>
> From: Howie Michaelson 
> To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
> Message-ID:
>  ooj_p0_a_sjyvw7_-+8kc9yvfsnm9pkwvgk-xnjx...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi,
> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
> HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
> The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
> causing this issue.
>
> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
> high voltage Charge Controller?
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[don energysolarnow.com via RE-wrenches]

Howie-
 it sounds like the XW+ is trying to curtail the Solar Edge by shifting 
frequency, and the loads don't like it.
When off-grid and batteries are charged there is no place for all that AC 
coupled solar power to go.
This is an issue windmill folks have too. The solution can be as simple as a 
dump load such as a water heater to absorb the excess energy.
Tell the customer to turn the hot tub up high, or something like that. Heat up 
a bathtub in a greenhouse and plant bananas.

DonBarch
Energy Solar

From: Howie Michaelson 
To: Dave Angelini , RE-wrenches

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
causing this issue.

Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
high voltage Charge Controller?
Thanks,
Howie

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Take the covers off XW+ Boss !  Go to webinar this Thursday below.  
Happy Sunday !

---

Hi Friends,

Because we ran out of time during the XW Pro Troubleshooting webinar, we 
weren't able to take any questions.


I wanted to give you the opportunity to join this follow-up webinar, and 
this time I promise to leave plenty of time for Q&A.


This session will encapsulate all of the most popular and informative 
topics into one session.


✅ Understanding what sets XW Pro apart from the competition
✅ Essentials of designing a system
✅ Monitoring options
✅ Q&A

Register today!

https://solar.se.com/us/en/event/xw-pro-performance-design-and-monitoring/ 
[1]


 I look forward to seeing you then .Eric

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-07-23 7:40 am, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


Jay,
I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been 
impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their 
phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause.  
It should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will 
write to my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to 
offer via email, although I find that form of communication with them 
to often be less than satisfactory.


Howie

On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an 
issue.


I don't see how the SE could cause this.

Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue.

Jay

On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and 
time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few 
similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any 
issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this 
design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue 
at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. 
As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage 
regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really 
understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it 
could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to 
install a high voltage charge controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this 
won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not 
excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some 
substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding.  If there was 
another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry 
to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality...


Howie
Sun Catcher

Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service
802-272-0004

On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:
Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play 
nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.


On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. 
It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled 
SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger 
with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more 
current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably 
fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all 
the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I 
did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very 
slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock 
solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not 
change at all.  The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter 
hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it 
is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue.


Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any 
suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge 
with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller?


Thanks,

Howie

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a 
few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC 
voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are 
all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads 
failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock 
solid 60 HZ right.


Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.

Are they on Insight? They really 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Jay,
I'm not sure what Schneider has to say, since Tech Support has been
impossible to reach this week (apparently something is wrong with their
phone system) and it was only recently that we determined the cause.  It
should be under warranty, unless there is lightning damage. I will write to
my support contacts and see if they have anything helpful to offer via
email, although I find that form of communication with them to often be
less than satisfactory.
Howie


On Sun, Jul 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an
> issue.
>
> I don’t see how the SE could cause this.
>
> Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
> Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and
> time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar
> installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the
> design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this
> type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few
> months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+
> is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC
> coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now
> showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning
> damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge
> controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in
> dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly
> right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent
> historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be
> happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about
> this eventuality...
>
> *Howie **Sun Catcher*
>
>
> *Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004*
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play
>> nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue.
>>> It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled
>>> SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with
>>> higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current
>>> through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in
>>> direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the
>>> house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an
>>> oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when
>>> the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not
>>> producing. The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in
>>> both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge
>>> production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2
>>> inverters causing this issue.
>>>
>>> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any
>>> suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a
>>> Schneider high voltage Charge Controller?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Howie
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a
 few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC
 voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of
 the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing
 that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ
 right.

 Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.

 Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there
 any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings
 in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning
 strike.

 XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
 There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right
 side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.

 While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both
 LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.

 Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5
 minutes.  If that does not work, then a

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Given that it worked fine for years it would appear that the XW+ has an issue. I don’t see how the SE could cause this. Is it still under warranty? What does Schneider say about the issue. JayOn Jul 22, 2023, at 10:33 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+ is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about this eventuality...Howie Sun CatcherSolar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches  wrote:Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches  wrote:Hi,I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house, regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope, but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing. The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters causing this issue.Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider high voltage Charge Controller? Thanks,HowieOn Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote:
I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right.
 

Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
 

Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning strike.
 
XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual. 
There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence. 

 
While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.

 
Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
 
Good Luck Howie!
 
 
 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


 

On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:



Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for cha

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Michael, that is my last ditch choice as I will be eating the cost and
time.  When I installed this setup 4+ years ago, having done a few similar
installations (although mostly on grid), I had not seen any issue with the
design, nor heard anyone else suggesting that this design might cause this
type of issue. And this did not become an issue at this site until a few
months ago, having operated well until then. As I am now hearing, the XW+
is not well equipped to handle voltage regulation when dealing with AC
coupled inverters. I don't really understand why the issue is just now
showing up, although I suppose it could possibly be due to lightning
damage. If the only solution is to install a high voltage charge
controller, so be it.  Unfortunately this won't be an insignificant cost in
dollars and time, a cost I'm not excited to be affording, particularly
right now after taking on some substantial losses due to our recent
historical flooding.  If there was another, less expensive solution, I'd be
happy to hear about it. Sorry to sound whiny, I'm just not very happy about
this eventuality...

*Howie **Sun Catcher*


*Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004*



On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 11:49 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play
> nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.
>
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
>> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
>> HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
>> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
>> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
>> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
>> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
>> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
>> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
>> The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
>> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
>> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
>> causing this issue.
>>
>> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
>> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
>> high voltage Charge Controller?
>> Thanks,
>> Howie
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a
>>> few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC
>>> voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of
>>> the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing
>>> that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ
>>> right.
>>>
>>> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
>>>
>>> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there
>>> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings
>>> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning
>>> strike.
>>>
>>> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
>>> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side
>>> of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.
>>>
>>> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both
>>> LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.
>>>
>>> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5
>>> minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
>>> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined
>>> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and
>>> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
>>>
>>> Good Luck Howie!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a
>>> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries
>>> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via
>>> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM
>>> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

Replacing SE with Conext 600-100😊, Seriously, everything will then play
nice together, and it's only a matter of time before the SE has to go.

On Sat, Jul 22, 2023 at 4:02 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi,
> I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
> turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
> HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
> output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
> the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
> proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
> regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
> but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
> is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
> The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
> lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
> is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
> causing this issue.
>
> Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
> for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
> high voltage Charge Controller?
> Thanks,
> Howie
>
> On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a
>> few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC
>> voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of
>> the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing
>> that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ
>> right.
>>
>> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
>>
>> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there
>> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings
>> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning
>> strike.
>>
>> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
>> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side
>> of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.
>>
>> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both
>> LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.
>>
>> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes.
>> If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
>> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined
>> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and
>> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
>>
>> Good Luck Howie!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a
>> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries
>> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via
>> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM
>> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other
>> older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this
>> pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough
>> so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level.  And
>> that worked in this case as well.
>> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has
>> now become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings changes we
>> made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any
>> changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has
>> started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging.  It
>> happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the
>> afternoons with solar charging.  And it is getting progressively worse.
>> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now?
>> Howie
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Hi,
I was finally able to get to the site with the light pulsating issue. It
turns out it is that it directly corresponds to the AC coupled SolarEdge
HDwave 6kW inverter.  Moreover, the pulsating gets stronger with higher
output of the SolarEdge inverter (as more sun pouches more current through
the inverter). And the hum of the XW+ very noticeably fluctuates in direct
proportion to light fluxuations. It affects all the lights in the house,
regardless of manufacturer, wattage or age. I did not have an oscilloscope,
but looking at the Hz, it does sag very slightly to 59.9 when the SolarEdge
is producing, down from a rock solid 60 Hz when the SE is not producing.
The output voltage does not change at all.  The fluctuations in both the
lights and the inverter hum immediately stops when the SolarEdge production
is shut off. So it is clearly some interaction between the 2 inverters
causing this issue.

Has anyone dealt with this issue before? Does anyone have any suggestions
for dealing with this, short of replacing the SolarEdge with a Schneider
high voltage Charge Controller?
Thanks,
Howie

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023, 7:09 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a few
> days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC voltage
> with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all of the
> lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads failing that
> could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 60 HZ right.
>
> Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
>
> Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there
> any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few settings
> in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or nearby lightning
> strike.
>
> XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
> There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side
> of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.
>
> While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both LEDs
> (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.
>
> Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes.
> If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
> This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined
> with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness and
> why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.
>
> Good Luck Howie!
>
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
>
>
> On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a
> Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries
> were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via
> generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM
> 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other
> older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this
> pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough
> so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level.  And
> that worked in this case as well.
> However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has now
> become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings changes we made
> within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any
> changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has
> started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging.  It
> happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the
> afternoons with solar charging.  And it is getting progressively worse.
> Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now?
> Howie
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
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> ___
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>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

It could be the LED bulbs.  I've had different brands flicker like crazy 
on grid and off.  Seems to relate to other loads that are on, especially 
stuff like washing machines with VFD drives, and well pumps.   Add 
dimmers and it can get even worse.


IMHO, they really need to improve the quality of the driver circuits on 
the LED bulbs.  Only gets worse on a less than perfect AC waveform.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 7/3/2023 5:09 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a 
few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC 
voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are 
all of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any 
loads failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? 
Rock solid 60 HZ right.

Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.
Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor. Are there 
any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few 
settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or 
nearby lightning strike.

XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a visual.
There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right 
side of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.
While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both 
LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.
Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 
minutes.  If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined 
with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of 
weirdness and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.

Good Luck Howie!
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 
209 813 0060*


  


On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a 
Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the 
batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the 
higher side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC 
coupled with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights 
similar to symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator 
for charging. The solution for this pulsation has usually been to 
kick back the AC charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed 
down to a tolerable inconsequential level.  And that worked in this 
case as well.
However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and 
has now become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings 
changes we made within the previous year, and these clients would be 
loath to make any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling 
is the pulsating has started to happen at seemingly random times not 
related to charging.  It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings 
without the generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging. 
And it is getting progressively worse.

Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now?
Howie

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

I think I would try eliminating things. Turn off the AC coupling for a 
few days and get results. Turn of DC solar and get results. Measure AC 
voltage with a scope or just observe voltage during the flicker. Are all 
of the lights flickering? Are they on dimmers?  Are there any loads 
failing that could be the source? Is the output with-in spec? Rock solid 
60 HZ right.


Do an AC bypass of XW with the genset and check for flicker symptoms.

Are they on Insight? They really need it for you to monitor.  Are there 
any faults, warnings or events ? Check history.  There are a few 
settings in the old XW+ that could have been glitched by a surge or 
nearby lightning strike.


XW+ could have a damaged FET. Open the unit and do a  visual.
There would be a smell and transistor fragments on the bottom right side 
of the power bridge. 90% of XW failures have visual evidence.


While you have it open, Check the DSP sensing and control board, both 
LEDs (light-emitting diodes) D24 and D25 are on.


Last thing is a DC power down of the unit and the DC buss for 5 minutes. 
 If that does not work, then a reset to factory values.
This is off an old list I got from Support many years ago and combined 
with my findings over the years. Really rare for this kind of weirdness 
and why it would be getting worse without visual evidence.


Good Luck Howie!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-07-03 12:42 pm, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a 
Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the 
batteries were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher 
side via generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled 
with an FM 80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to 
symptoms of other older inverters when using a generator for charging. 
The solution for this pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC 
charge amperage just enough so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable 
inconsequential level.  And that worked in this case as well.
However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has 
now become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings changes we 
made within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make 
any changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating 
has started to happen at seemingly random times not related to 
charging.  It happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the 
generator, or during the afternoons with solar charging.  And it is 
getting progressively worse.

Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now?

Howie
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[RE-wrenches] Inverter output fluctuations

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Hi All,
I upgraded an old clients' off-grid system about five years ago to a
Schneider XW6848+ and 2 Blue Ion 2.0 cabinets (32kWh). When the batteries
were moving toward full, if the charge rate was on the higher side via
generator or solar (AC coupled w/SolarEdge 6kW and DC coupled with an FM
80), they would start to get pulsating lights similar to symptoms of other
older inverters when using a generator for charging. The solution for this
pulsation has usually been to kick back the AC charge amperage just enough
so the pulsating calmed down to a tolerable inconsequential level.  And
that worked in this case as well.
However, a few weeks ago, the pulsating became more noticeable and has now
become fairly intolerable.  To my knowledge, no settings changes we made
within the previous year, and these clients would be loath to make any
changes, so I doubt there were any. More puzzling is the pulsating has
started to happen at seemingly random times not related to charging.  It
happens at night or pre-dawn mornings without the generator, or during the
afternoons with solar charging.  And it is getting progressively worse.
Anyone have any thoughts on why that would start getting worse now?
Howie
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