Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Kevin Pegg via RE-wrenches]

Hi John,

Do you know what firmware version was causing your initial over-voltage 
situation?

Kevin

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of John 
Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday, February 9, 2024 8:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: John Blittersdorf 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Ray,
   With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of XW 
inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience with one 
I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging 48V L16 wet 
cell batteries.  In both cases with charge settings double checked and triple 
checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb setting and destroyed the 
batteries. In one case a battery blew its top off.  The other we caught in time 
and shut it down. That one had some bad cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I 
installed) and when I arrived there the room was HOT from the boiling 
batteries.  I replaced them with 2 strings of 8 and though I was skeptical 
about the charge rate being stable, left it to the owner to monitor. That was 
last year and he has recently called to have me check a potential overcharging 
issue.  The other one I installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie 
application and the after several years of working properly suddenly started 
overcharging out of control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries 
were overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the 
DC switches off.  I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it out 
right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the system on 
and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it down.  Fast forward 
2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there was a firmware problem 
and after much agrivation getting the firmware updated with no internet and 
poor phone coverage, got it back working OK.  Fast forward again 2 more years, 
problem is back.  I have the system set to charge at 1 amp and am able to at 
least keep the inverter on to sell his solar power. Ready to start round 3 with 
Schneider, this time with internet and good phone service  By the way, I have 
never had overcharge issues with Outback unless my settings were too high.  
Someone mentioned lack of overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's.  I know 
for a fact that the Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high 
lead acid settings on the Outback Radian  when installing the Fortress 
batteries.  They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I 
stopped the overcharge.
John Blittersdorf

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 
v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid.  This set lasted 
5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The 
RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get 
shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, 
and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, 
tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while 
on site.

 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after 
several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so 
far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the 
generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries 
didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he 
charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I checked this 
charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time I arrived, all 4 
batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all 
disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual 
voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 
v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.

Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. 
 Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the 
Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, 
Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how 
their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I think it 
failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and 
normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid 
environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not 
suitable for off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit 
recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.

How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu X' snafu

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Ray,
   With this batch of posts about lithium batteriem and several mentions of
XW inverters and overcharging, I just have to chime in with my experience
with one I installed and one installed by someone else. Both were charging
48V L16 wet cell batteries.  In both cases with charge settings double
checked and triple checked, I had both shoot past the 57.2 volt absorb
setting and destroyed the batteries. In one case a battery blew its top
off.  The other we caught in time and shut it down. That one had some bad
cells in 3 strings of 8 (not the one I installed) and when I arrived there
the room was HOT from the boiling batteries.  I replaced them with 2
strings of 8 and though I was skeptical about the charge rate being stable,
left it to the owner to monitor. That was last year and he has recently
called to have me check a potential overcharging issue.  The other one I
installed with 8 L16 batteries in a grid tie application and the after
several years of working properly suddenly started overcharging out of
control. WHen the customer called saying that the batteries were
overheating, I told him to switch the inverter to bypass and shut all the
DC switches off.  I was at the Midwest Enegy Fair and not able to check it
out right away. When I returned, I filled the batteries up and turned the
system on and the voltage shot up past 60 then 65 volts and I shut it
down.  Fast forward 2 years... Schneider techs finally admitted that there
was a firmware problem and after much agrivation getting the firmware
updated with no internet and poor phone coverage, got it back working OK.
Fast forward again 2 more years, problem is back.  I have the system set to
charge at 1 amp and am able to at least keep the inverter on to sell his
solar power. Ready to start round 3 with Schneider, this time with internet
and good phone service  By the way, I have never had overcharge issues with
Outback unless my settings were too high.  Someone mentioned lack of
overcharge protection on some Lithium BMS's.  I know for a fact that the
Fortress E-flex does when I forgot to change from very high lead acid
settings on the Outback Radian  when installing the Fortress batteries.
They nicely shut down at 60 volts and turned back on after I stopped the
overcharge.
John Blittersdorf

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Hi Richard;

Off list, what was your outcome from Simpliphi?  Did they make any deal 
with you?  What did you put in as replacements?


Thanks,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi Ray
We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same 
symptoms you found.
Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to 
leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp 
compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to 
absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted 
to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced 
and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to 
default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming 
suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 
12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the 
complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt 
with garbage like the outback skybox!)


I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage 
was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.


You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was 
used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is 
typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 
56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and 
longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 
56v for a short duration.


Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but 
then we find that the equipment we use in off grid 
(outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or 
precisely  as the battery manufacturer requires.


Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for 
disposal of the failed batteries..


Hope you find reasonable resolution -
Thanks
Rich


On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Ray

I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between
OEMS.

But that sure sucks.

Jay




On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
 wrote:



We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+
for off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to
bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty
process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get
shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with
Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for
shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable,
responsive, and available by phone while on site.

 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he
charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. 
By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even
milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the
batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage
(51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed
to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.

Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high
voltage event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had
both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according
to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high
voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their
electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I
think it failed because of the voltage differential between the
low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't
survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper
programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for
off grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit
recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.

How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu
X'/ snafu on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have
transient over voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in
the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and
not use that inverter with their batteries.

So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries
would have cost, my client is looki

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

The auxiliary charger was only used after Simpliphi recommended it.  
This was also a requirement before they would even issue an RMA: charge 
each battery individually for 2 hours with a separate DC power supply or 
battery charger.  That's 8 hours total on site by the way, and another 
problem I had with their overall warranty process.   Every step of the 
way was one delay effort after another.  Even this week, they broke the 
news to me that I wasn't getting a warranty for my customer, because of 
"high voltage". I mentioned that I thought it was due to a voltage 
differential between the the batteries at very low SOC and voltage, and 
not that the charger had inadvertently exceeded high voltage limits. 
Another 3 days of no communication has ensued, as they check with 
engineering.


Basically, its like Boeing's 737 Max; if there's a problem with even 1 
out of 200 systems, its not acceptable.


Simpliphi is obligated to:
A) Put it in writing that the warranty is voided if we use XW inverters 
or older FM 80 charge controllers.  (2 units mentioned specifically that 
they had seen this happen with before)
or  B)  Fix their BMS, so it is robust enough to survive in systems that 
otherwise work fine with other batteries.
or C) Honor the warranty and take the hit 1 out of 200 times that it 
doesn't work out.


Simpliphi  knew there was a problem, and hid it from installers, because 
they didn't want to lose sales. Then when there is a failure after the 
sale, they blow us off with repeated delays, and their vaporware 10 year 
warranty.  The fact that Briggs &Stratton is part of this now, just 
points to the usual penny pinching in a corporation after consolidation.


I hope I'm wrong, I will report to the Wrenches list as to what 
transpires.  Right now, I'm shopping for SLA batteries to get this 
customer back in action.


Reporting as always from the Bleeding Edge,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hi Ray
We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same 
symptoms you found.
Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to 
leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp 
compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to 
absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted 
to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced 
and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to 
default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming 
suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 
12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the 
complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt 
with garbage like the outback skybox!)


I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage 
was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.


You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was 
used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is 
typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 
56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and 
longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 
56v for a short duration.


Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but 
then we find that the equipment we use in off grid 
(outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or 
precisely  as the battery manufacturer requires.


Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for 
disposal of the failed batteries..


Hope you find reasonable resolution -
Thanks
Rich


On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Hi Ray

I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between
OEMS.

But that sure sucks.

Jay




On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
 wrote:



We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+
for off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to
bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty
process has not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get
shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with
Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for
shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable,
responsive, and available by phone while on site.

 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
b

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years.
after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench
power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off
grid system.  I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows
how to charge them.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Ray,
>
> Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of
> Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in
> Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to
> Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the
> past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window
> into how they truly operate over time.
>
> Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be
> upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also
> is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls
> lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet
> connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which
> lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away.
>
> I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known
> quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.
> Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps
> what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a
> "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it
> already exists.
>
> A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the
> fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as
> the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed
> up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and
> as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the
> battery manufacturer and vice versa.
>
> Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches
> list.
>
> Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,
> Christopher
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ray
>>
>> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
>> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>>
>> But that sure sucks.
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
>> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
>> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
>> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
>> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
>> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
>> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
>> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>>
>>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
>> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
>> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
>> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
>> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
>> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
>> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
>> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
>> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
>> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
>> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
>> loads.
>>
>> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
>> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
>> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
>> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
>> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
>> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
>> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
>> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
>> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
>> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
>> grid; its a tough gig.
>>
>> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
>> on this list?  Simpliphi is s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches]

Ray,

Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of
Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in
Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to
Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the
past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window
into how they truly operate over time.

Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be
upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also
is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls
lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet
connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which
lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away.

I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known
quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable.
Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps
what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a
"tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it
already exists.

A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the
fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as
the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed
up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and
as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the
battery manufacturer and vice versa.

Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches
list.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy,
Christopher

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches]

Hi Ray
We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms
you found.
Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to
leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp
compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to
absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to
defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and
respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default
programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to
precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own??
Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software
(especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!)

I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was
high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't.

You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v  - if this charger was used
in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically
the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then
Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer
duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a
short duration.

Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then
we find that the equipment we use in off grid
(outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely
as the battery manufacturer requires.

Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure  for
disposal of the failed batteries..

Hope you find reasonable resolution -
Thanks
Rich


On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weath

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches]

I've been having the same thoughts about Li and off-grid systems. It used
to be that I would install a system and then hear back from the clients a
decade later when it was time for new batteries. Now, almost every other
week I'm dealing with Li related issues (that I feel obligated to pay for).
Same with all of the networking and IT and remote monitoring stuff.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Ray
>
> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium.
> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS.
>
> But that sure sucks.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of
> these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
> years?
>
> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>
> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>
> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
> guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering.
> Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being
> wro

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi RayI’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. But that sure sucks. JayOn Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote:

  

  
  
We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
  batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for
  off grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom
  of the barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has
  not been smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info
  from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues,
  and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To
  their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and
  available by phone while on site.  

 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month
  ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down
  due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter
  situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to
  revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to
  be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged
  each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I checked this
  charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time I
  arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
  current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the
  buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the
  terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon
  connection to the inverter with no loads. 

Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high
  voltage event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had
  both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according
  to the Simpliphi integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high
  voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their
  electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault.  I think
  it failed because of the voltage differential between the low
  battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS can't
  survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming
  on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid
  applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending
  their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.
How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu
X' snafu on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can
  have transient over voltage events.  Well, that should be
  mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed
  decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries.   

So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries
  would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete
  new set.  That's approx. $1.60/ kWh of use from the old set. 
  Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished
  units; that is still to be seen.  The customer has been running on
  an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000
  ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without
  any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years? 

In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with
  such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough
  RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top
  tier manu.  I thought I was providing my customer with the best,
  but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm
  considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but lead acid are
  a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and
  predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
  signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather,
  and I am just not a fan of the whole 'battery heating do it
yourself off Ebay with pet heaters' BS either. 

Li+ is just not ready for off grid.  It seems to work fine
  for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB.   

At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too
  far off of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at
  almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries
  to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a 'Fly by
night/ made in China' offering.  Based on cycle life, this
  should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being wrong.  I can only
  pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start
  failing on my watch. 

I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give
  Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

For what it's worth, B&S has a stellar reputation around here for dealer
warranty support on their generators. I know that doesn't always translate
when companies acquire others (a case in point is the disastrous ADT/SunPro
mess). How battery manufacturers will handle LiPO warranty claims is still
unknown given the industry's infancy. Homeowners often make decisions based
on name recognition and backing of these big companies. And then they find
out that wasn't the best decision. All we can do as the middlemen is hold
the manufacturers' feet to the fire.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208


On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh
> batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off
> grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the
> barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been
> smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi,
> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept
> used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support has been
> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.
>
>  Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after
> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage.
> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer
> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the
> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with
> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger.  I
> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v.  By the time
> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge
> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but
> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not
> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no
> loads.
>
> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage
> event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback
> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi
> integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they
> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed
> = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage differential
> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  If  the BMS
> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on
> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications.
> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off
> grid; its a tough gig.
>
> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu
> on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over
> voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide,
> so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their
> batteries.
>
> So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have
> cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  That's
> approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*.  Simpliphi is saying
> they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen.
> The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in
> sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to reinstall more of
> these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of
> years?
>
> In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a
> complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or
> with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought I was
> providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid
> batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 2024, but
> lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite
> robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning
> signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am
> just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay
> with pet heaters'* BS either.
>
> *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks
> that don't rely on it, like GTB.
>
> At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off
> of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We
> were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the
> guise that this was NOT a *'

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh 
batteries, 48 v.  It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off 
grid.  This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the 
barrel Golf Cart batteries.  The RMA/ Warranty process has not been 
smooth.  It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, 
and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to 
accept used Li+ batteries for shipment.  To their credit, tech support 
has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site.


 Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, 
after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low 
voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the 
customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he 
noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after 
consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a 
small aux charger.  I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a 
max of 58 v.  By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept 
even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the 
batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage 
(51vdc) on the terminals.  It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 
v upon connection to the inverter with no loads.


Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage 
event.  Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback 
FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi 
integration guides.   BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they 
just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics 
failed = customer's fault.  I think it failed because of the voltage 
differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage.  
If  the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper 
programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off 
grid applications.  Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending 
their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig.


How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu X'/ snafu 
on this list?  Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over 
voltage events.  Well, that should be mentioned in the integration 
guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter 
with their batteries.


So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would 
have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set.  
That's approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying 
they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be 
seen.  The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 
weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft.  Also, why would we want to 
reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen 
again in a couple of years?


In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a 
complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, 
or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu.  I thought 
I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead 
acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs.  It's 
2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance 
are quite robust and predictable.  Even when they fail, there are plenty 
of warning signs beforehand.  They also can handle below freezing 
weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole '/battery heating do it 
yourself off Ebay with pet heaters'/ BS either.


*Li+ is just not ready for off grid.*  It seems to work fine for folks 
that don't rely on it, like GTB.


At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off 
of lead acid.   Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? 
We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under 
the guise that this was NOT a /'Fly by night/ made in China/' offering.  
Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime.  I hate being 
wrong.  I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries 
don't start failing on my watch.


I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a 
chance to make this right. However, this week I heard their "diagnosis", 
and then I saw Jay's timely post? I knew it was time.  


Sincerely,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 2/7/2024 9:19 AM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS 
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.


Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.

I guess its something else we need to check on.

Jay



On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an 
Italian Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of 
course East Penn is

[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[jay via RE-wrenches]

One of the things that I’m just now learning is about BMS 
failure/warranty/fix/replacement.   

Some can be field installed some need to go back to the OEM.

I guess its something else we need to check on.  

Jay



> On Feb 7, 2024, at 9:06 AM, Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Read the warranty. Very limited uses to maintain coverage. Mfg by an Italian 
> Co that is somewhat condescending toward customers. But of course East Penn 
> is good to work with. My understanding is that they do work with the three 
> phase Sol-Ark inverters. 
> 
> Brad
> 
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2024 at 4:52 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Pals:
> 
>  
> Anyone have any experience with this product, good or bad?
> 
>  
> https://www.mkbattery.com/products/energy-storage#deka 
> 
>  
> We have had excellent results using their flooded and valve regulated 
> lead-acid batteries.
> 
>  
> William
> 
>  
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Jerry, have you used an XW with the Blue Ion?  If so, is there a reason to
use a Conext Battery Monitor with the system?  In this system, which is
grid-tied, there will also be a backup generator (he likes redundancy).
What settings would trigger the AGS if there was no Battery Monitor in the
system?  It seems the very minimal voltage variation of the Li makes using
a voltage reading for gen start difficult at best.
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have
> installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy
> with performance
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade <
> ja...@westcoastsustainables.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Howie,
>> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES,
>> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and
>> they are working great,
>> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought
>> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident
>> they will be here to honor the warranty.
>> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood
>> shop.
>> Jason Andrade
>> West Coast Sustainables
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Folks,
>> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> >> effective.
>> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants
>> the
>> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than
>> he
>> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
>> using a
>> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could
>> wire
>> >> in
>> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
>> instead).
>> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> >>
>> >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>> >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> >>
>> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
>> Schneider
>> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
>> into
>> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> >>
>> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
>> fuse
>> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> >>
>> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> >> comparison,
>> >> I'd greatly appreciate it.
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

The owner of Blue Ion runs XW's or at least I saw pix of him in front of
one. 

They have their own monitor program but it is not compatible with
Outback or Schneider comms. That lets them out for my use. 

Just finished
the circuit validation testing of XW pro here. It really was just to make
sure it ran normally offgrid. All of the advantages of it over XW+ are grid
related. It does have potential to do other things in the future. The power
bridge on xwp is more robust than xw+. It also has more memory and the
control pcb is faster I think. 

On Tue, 7 May 2019 16:17:55 -0400, Howie
Michaelson  wrote:   Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been
looking at the Blue Ion, but for some reason they off my top tier choices.
Have you integrated them with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS
info access? The one thing that I really like about the AES batteries is
their integration with the Context comms (at least from what I've read here
and elsewhere). Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries?
With XWs? On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW
pro vs. the plus? Howie Michaelson Sun Catcher

  On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32
PM Jerry Shafer  wrote:  Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet
Energy, l have installed new and also switched over from other batteries,
been very happy with performance 
  On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason
Andrade  wrote: 
 Howie,
 I've used a few different brands and am currently
using the Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack
of XW inverters and they are working great, 
 As for another post comment
that these companies are looking to be bought out, Discover is long time
battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor
the warranty.
 If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did
on my wood shop.
 Jason Andrade
 West Coast Sustainables 

 > 
 > 
 >> Hi
Folks,
 >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job. The client is
not a
 >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally
cost
 >> effective.
 >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge
and now he wants the
 >> backup component. This was significantly oversized
for his use, but he
 >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back
into the grid than he
 >> was using (making up for past profligate power
usage). We will be using a
 >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough
backfeed capacity (we could wire
 >> in
 >> a transfer switch and only use
1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
 >> I have narrowed down my
choice for batteries to either:
 >> 
 >> - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour
batteries, or
 >> - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
 >> 
 >>
Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider

>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
into
 >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher
rated
 >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
 >> 
 >>
Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
 >>
allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse

>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
 >> 
 >> If
anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
 >>
comparison,
 >> I'd greatly appreciate it.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Sindelar Solar]

Howie,

I have now installed three Blue Ion systems (2 x 16 kwh and one 48kwh) 
and am very pleased with them. It's a complete package with clear 
instructions, all parts labeled, good technical support, and presents 
very well to the client when installed. BMS info is accessed online 
through the included and pre-programmed E-Gauge, which displays both BMS 
and consumption data. The BMS manages all charge functions; the 
inverters and controllers are overridden. I have only used them as 
upgrades to existing off grid systems with Magnum and Outback VFX 
hardware, but have an XW installation planned for early August.


Allan

--
*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 5/7/2019 2:17 PM, Howie Michaelson wrote:
Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been looking at the Blue 
Ion, but for some reason they off my top tier choices. Have you 
integrated them with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS info 
access? The one thing that I really like about the AES batteries is 
their integration with the Context comms (at least from what I've read 
here and elsewhere).

Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries? With XWs?
On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW pro 
vs. the plus?

Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote:


Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have
installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been
very happy with performance

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade
mailto:ja...@westcoastsustainables.com>> wrote:


Howie,
I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the
Discover AES, I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual
stack of XW inverters and they are working great,
As for another post comment that these companies are looking
to be bought out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer
and I feel pretty confident they will be here to honor the
warranty.
If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did
on my wood shop.
Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables

>
>
>> Hi Folks,
>> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The
client is not a
>> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being
totally cost
>> effective.
>> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now
he wants the
>> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his
use, but he
>> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the
grid than he
>> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We
will be using a
>> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity
(we could wire
>> in
>> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this
setup instead).
>> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>>
>>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>>
>> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly
with the Schneider
>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides
direct insight into
>> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly
higher rated
>> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>>
>> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp
hour size
>> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an
integrated fuse
>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>>
>> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> comparison,
>> I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Jerry, thanks for this recommendation. I've been looking at the Blue Ion,
but for some reason they off my top tier choices. Have you integrated them
with XW battery backup systems? How is the BMS info access? The one thing
that I really like about the AES batteries is their integration with the
Context comms (at least from what I've read here and elsewhere).
Does anyone else have experience with Blue Ion batteries? With XWs?
On a separate note, what are the real advantages of using the XW pro vs.
the plus?
Howie Michaelson
Sun Catcher

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 5:32 PM Jerry Shafer  wrote:

> Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have
> installed new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy
> with performance
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade <
> ja...@westcoastsustainables.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Howie,
>> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES,
>> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and
>> they are working great,
>> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought
>> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident
>> they will be here to honor the warranty.
>> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood
>> shop.
>> Jason Andrade
>> West Coast Sustainables
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >> Hi Folks,
>> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> >> effective.
>> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants
>> the
>> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than
>> he
>> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
>> using a
>> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could
>> wire
>> >> in
>> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
>> instead).
>> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> >>
>> >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>> >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> >>
>> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
>> Schneider
>> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
>> into
>> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> >>
>> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
>> fuse
>> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> >>
>> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> >> comparison,
>> >> I'd greatly appreciate it.
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Thanks Jason.  Great videos!  Any thoughts on why AES is so much more than
some others that seem pretty solid as well?
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:30 PM Jason Andrade <
ja...@westcoastsustainables.com> wrote:

>
> Howie,
> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES,
> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and
> they are working great,
> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought
> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident
> they will be here to honor the warranty.
> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood
> shop.
> Jason Andrade
> West Coast Sustainables
>
> >
> >
> >> Hi Folks,
> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> >> effective.
> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
> using a
> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> >> in
> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
> instead).
> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
> >>
> >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
> >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
> >>
> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
> Schneider
> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
> into
> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
> >>
> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
> fuse
> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
> >>
> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> >> comparison,
> >> I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries - Li-ion battery warning

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hello Howie,

You should be aware that Discover Li-ion battery does not have adequate 
protection to prevent damage if charged below freezing. The data sheet (see 
attachment) shows that you can charge the battery down to -4°F and adds a text 
warning not to charge below 32°F. 

"Care should be taken to ensure that the battery’s temperature is > 0°C (32°F) 
during charging."

Charging any Li battery below freezing will permanently damage the battery and 
create a future fire hazard. This is no problem if you can insure that the 
cells always stay above freezing. 

IMO, it makes no sense why any Li battery manufacturer does not fully protect 
their battery. (I know of others) It is simple to inhibit charge current based 
on cell temperature. To me this can create a ticking time bomb. Someone 
unknowingly charges a frozen battery. The danger shows up later when the 
separator is penetrated by dendrite growth caused by lithium plating of the 
anode. This happened when they charged a frozen battery. Dendrite growth can 
lead to internal shorting which can be a fire hazard.

It would be wise to install these in a sealed metal enclosure or provide 
another method to prevent charge current when below freezing.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems





On May 3, 2019, at 12:45 PM, Howie Michaelson  
wrote:

Hi Folks,
About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a heavy 
user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost effective.  
We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the backup 
component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he wanted to be 
sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he was using (making 
up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a dual stacked XW 6848, 
mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in a transfer switch and 
only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
(2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
(3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider 
Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into the 
SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated cycle life 
so higher lifetime energy capacity.

Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size allowing 
for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse and 
disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison, I'd 
greatly appreciate it.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[MiJo Nels]

I love IronE's temp tolerances.

and as far as LiPO4 goes AES is certainly neck and neck with the VERY best of 
LFP. Their BMS is very robust and well designed (And they're made in Canada)

Joe Nelson

Project Manager C-46/C-10
Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation

CSL# 868816
www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com<http://www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com>
530-273-4422 (Office)

530-217-8385 (Cell)



   



From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jerry Shafer 
Sent: Friday, May 3, 2019 2:32:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed new 
and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with performance

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade 
mailto:ja...@westcoastsustainables.com>> wrote:

Howie,
I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I 
have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are 
working great,
As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, 
Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they 
will be here to honor the warranty.
If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop.
Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables

>
>
>> Hi Folks,
>> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> effective.
>> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
>> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> in
>> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
>> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>>
>>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>>
>> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
>> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>>
>> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>>
>> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> comparison,
>> I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Just my 2 cents, look at Blue ion from Blue Planet Energy, l have installed
new and also switched over from other batteries, been very happy with
performance

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 2:30 PM Jason Andrade 
wrote:

>
> Howie,
> I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES,
> I have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and
> they are working great,
> As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought
> out, Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident
> they will be here to honor the warranty.
> If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood
> shop.
> Jason Andrade
> West Coast Sustainables
>
> >
> >
> >> Hi Folks,
> >> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> >> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> >> effective.
> >> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> >> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> >> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> >> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
> using a
> >> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> >> in
> >> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
> instead).
> >> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
> >>
> >>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
> >>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
> >>
> >> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
> Schneider
> >> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
> into
> >> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> >> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
> >>
> >> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> >> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
> fuse
> >> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
> >>
> >> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> >> comparison,
> >> I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Jason Andrade]

Howie,
I’ve used a few different brands and am currently using the Discover AES, I 
have a quad stack of the coupled to an dual stack of XW inverters and they are 
working great, 
As for another post comment that these companies are looking to be bought out, 
Discover is long time battery manufacturer and I feel pretty confident they 
will be here to honor the warranty.
If you search YouTube you can see a video Discover and I did on my wood shop.
Jason Andrade
West Coast Sustainables 

> 
> 
>> Hi Folks,
>> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> effective.
>> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
>> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> in
>> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
>> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> 
>>   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>>   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> 
>> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
>> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
>> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> 
>> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
>> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> 
>> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> comparison,
>> I'd greatly appreciate it.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Chris,
Thanks for the reminder.  I've stayed out of the Lithium option until now,
largely because of just that, but now that I'm delving in, that is a good
reminder. I swore off bleeding edge products years ago, but I guess I'm
running the risk of bleeding again...
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:49 PM Chris Mason 
wrote:

> I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery
> companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by
> Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what
> their intentions are.  I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support
> solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers?
> Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and
> whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and
> Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM  wrote:
>
>> Hi Howie,
>> Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
>> some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
>> basic info to start.
>>
>>
>> Daryl
>> Penobscot Solar Design
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi Folks,
>> > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
>> > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
>> > effective.
>> > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
>> > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
>> > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
>> > was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be
>> using a
>> > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
>> > in
>> > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup
>> instead).
>> > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>> >
>> >- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>> >- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>> >
>> > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
>> Schneider
>> > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight
>> into
>> > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
>> > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>> >
>> > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
>> > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated
>> fuse
>> > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>> >
>> > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
>> > comparison,
>> > I'd greatly appreciate it.
>> > ___
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>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
> www.cometsolar.com 
> 264.235.5670
> 869.662.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Thanks Dave. Do you need an add-on to get the interface from the AES to the
Conext gateway?
Have you used Iron Edison's lithium offering?  Is there a comprehensible
reason for the significant price differential between the 2?  Do you know
where the IronEdison are manufactured?
Howie

On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:53 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Hi Howie,
>
> The largest I have seen/worked on is the AES with (17) 6.6 KWH batteries.
> I can tell you it works fine with an XW system.
>
> Even though it looks like AES uses the conext battery monitor, it really
> does not and you do not have to buy one. Because AES was from xantrex
> employees, Schneider lets them use the xanbus data to simulate a battery
> monitor. See attachment for what it looks like on the conext gateway. The
> Iron Edison is nice also but you would need the shunt and battery monitor.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Fri, 3 May 2019 15:45:28 -0400, Howie Michaelson <
> howie.michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> effective.
> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in
> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>
>- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>
> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>
> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> comparison, I'd greatly appreciate it.
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Chris Mason]

I'd be very cautious about getting too cosy with any of these battery
companies, it seems their only aim is to get bought. Sonnen was acquired by
Shell Oil, Pika by Generac. I'm a generac dealer so I am exploring what
their intentions are.  I doubt Shell will be gung-ho to continue to support
solar, so where does that leave my Sonnen customers?
Make sure your customers are aware you don't know where this is going and
whether any of these guys will stay the course. Companies like trojan and
Outback are going to be around, but Fortress? Unlikely.




On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:34 PM  wrote:

> Hi Howie,
> Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
> some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
> basic info to start.
>
>
> Daryl
> Penobscot Solar Design
>
>
>
> > Hi Folks,
> > About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> > heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> > effective.
> > We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> > backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> > wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> > was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using
> a
> > dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> > in
> > a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> > I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
> >
> >- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
> >- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
> >
> > Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the
> Schneider
> > Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> > the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> > cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
> >
> > Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> > allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> > and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
> >
> > If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> > comparison,
> > I'd greatly appreciate it.
> > ___
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-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[penobscotsolar]

Hi Howie,
Have you looked at Fortress Power batteries? We're about to install
some and they look like a very decent battery. Google will get you the
basic info to start.


Daryl
Penobscot Solar Design



> Hi Folks,
> About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
> heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
> effective.
> We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
> backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
> wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
> was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
> dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire
> in
> a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
> I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:
>
>- (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
>- (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries
>
> Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
> Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
> the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
> cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.
>
> Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
> allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
> and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my
> comparison,
> I'd greatly appreciate it.
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Howie Michaelson]

Hi Folks,
About to spec my first Lithium battery backup job.  The client is not a
heavy user, but wants things done right more than being totally cost
effective.
We put in 14kW of net metered solar using SolarEdge and now he wants the
backup component. This was significantly oversized for his use, but he
wanted to be sure he was putting a bunch more back into the grid than he
was using (making up for past profligate power usage).  We will be using a
dual stacked XW 6848, mostly for enough backfeed capacity (we could wire in
a transfer switch and only use 1 XW, but he'd prefer this setup instead).
I have narrowed down my choice for batteries to either:

   - (2) Iron Edison 200 amp hour batteries, or
   - (3) Discover AES 130 amp hour batteries

Advantages for the AES are that they integrate directly with the Schneider
Xanbus network so the Conext battery monitor provides direct insight into
the SOC and SOH of the batteries, and they have a slightly higher rated
cycle life so higher lifetime energy capacity.

Advantages of the IronEdison are they come in a larger amp hour size
allowing for only needing 2 vs. 3 batteries, they have an integrated fuse
and disconnect, and from my sources are 1/3 less in price.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, or corrections to my comparison,
I'd greatly appreciate it.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

[Glenn Burt]

The sonnen eco series of products were available before the PW2, and are 
available today through distributors.
They also take AC in and out, with batteries and inverter internal in a sleek 
enclosure. They are programmable for exporting restrictions.

-Glenn

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Darryl Thayer
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 12:08 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battereis

Hello Jay and Larry.
As I mentioned I have had experience with only 3 systems,  I have another one 
coming up.  The charge controller problem has occurred in all of my systems,  
But this is perhaps a misunderstanding on my part.  I used manufactures data, 
trying to attain maximum life.  As mentioned by others, I would not install a 
system without BMS built in.

I am interested in powerwall-2 AC as it seems to have some advantage in no 
export, and the glamour of LI.  I have not been able to get one, except through 
giving the project to a competitor.  Does anyone else make a similar product?  
And does anyone have information on the actual product as far as pass-through 
and turn-down for no export systems?

Thanks to both of you and others for the information.

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 10:40 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems < 
la...@starlightsolar.com> wrote:

> Hello Darryl,
>
> Quote "You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, the 
> voltage drops so little your CC will not necessarily pick-up.”
>
> We have sold hundreds of Li-ion batteries over the last 4 years. No 
> one has had a problem with a PV solar charge controller or battery 
> charger providing current when a load is applied. If the battery 
> voltage is at equilibrium with the charger, float mode and current 
> basically zero, the slightest load will be directed to the charge 
> source as it attempts to maintain voltage.
>
> Hey Jay,
>
> We sell Relion with cylindrical cells and prismatic cells from Elite 
> Power Solutions (GBS) and LiFeBlue Battery. We have never had a cell 
> failure with any battery yet so as for cell quality, all brands are 
> working well. The problems we have had are always with the EMS systems.
>
> My thoughts comparing the two battery types are one type has fewer 
> points of failure. In a 100AH 12 volt pack using cylindrical cells, 
> you have many dozens of batteries and connections compared to 4 to 16 
> prismatic cells. I know Tesla cars have worked extremely well with 
> 7000+ cylindrical cells but he has spent millions making it work. In 
> the Li battery market we are involved with, I’m not so sure the 
> manufacturers have provided the same level of QC.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
> On Oct 7, 2017, at 8:05 PM, Darryl Thayer  wrote:
>
> I have only limited experience with Lithium batteries.  But in that 
> experience, a module of small cylindrical cells will have a higher 
> power, faster charge, and discharge.  For the same chemistry, the 
> prism cells will have a little higher energy density.  For long cycle 
> life and slow aging, the differences in battery additives meaning the 
> manufacturer are paramount.  In using Li-ion there are a few tricks.  
> The voltage is very stable, so you can not use voltage for the state 
> of charge. For LA you will float 13.4 forever, then when you draw 
> power, the voltage drops.  even at low draw, the voltage drops to the 
> 12.6 range.  You must be careful of LI because if you are floating, 
> the voltage drops so little your CC will not necessarily pick-up.  
> Some manufacturers give you instruction via mod bus or some form of 
> communication. So ask your CC supplier and your battery people good luck some 
> do not even understand their own equipment.
>
> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 10:16 AM, jay  wrote:
>
> > To follow along with the lithium questions,
> >
> > I’m wondering what thoughts/information people have on prismatic vs 
> > cylindrical lithium family batteries?
> >
> > My questions are quality,cycle life, pros/cons,recycling?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > jay
>
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Check o

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV

[frenergy]

Jay,

I hate to throw cold water on the Li-ion alternative for an ATV, but I 
did exactly that when my Li-ion pack caught on fire in my E-Force ATV that was 
converted to Li-ion.  I'm now back to sealed LA.  The cells and BOS were about 
4 years old so maybe all that is getting more dialed in by now...I know not all 
Li-ion batteries are the same.  I Hope it works out for you. The range was a 
bit better.

Bill
Feather River Solar Electric
  - Original Message - 
  From: Randy Brooks 
  To: RE Wrenches ; jay.pe...@gmail.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 12:10 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV


  Jay,


  I saw your post on RE-Wrenches, asking about a source for lithium batteries 
for the Polaris Ranger EV utility vehicle.  I’m friends with a Polaris Ranger 
EV owner who recently converted his to lithium.  His contact info is:


  Jack Anderson
  jma...@prodigy.net
  509-784-1747


  Jack can provide you details. 


  I helped range test the lithium version.  Very nice.


  take care,


  Randy Brooks
  Brooks Solar, Inc.
  Chelan, WA
  509-682-9646
  ra...@brookssolar.com




  From: jay peltz 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris
  Date: May 26, 2015 at 7:05:58 PM PDT
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Reply-To: RE-wrenches 

  Hi All, 

  I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV 
ranger. 
  I've looked but can't find any.  

  Anybody know of a supplier for this?

  Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing.

  jay

  peltz power






--


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[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris Ranger EV

[Randy Brooks]

Jay,

I saw your post on RE-Wrenches, asking about a source for lithium batteries for 
the Polaris Ranger EV utility vehicle.  I’m friends with a Polaris Ranger EV 
owner who recently converted his to lithium.  His contact info is:

Jack Anderson
jma...@prodigy.net <mailto:jma...@prodigy.net>
509-784-1747

Jack can provide you details. 

I helped range test the lithium version.  Very nice.

take care,

Randy Brooks
Brooks Solar, Inc.
Chelan, WA
509-682-9646
ra...@brookssolar.com <mailto:ra...@brookssolar.com>


From: jay peltz mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris
Date: May 26, 2015 at 7:05:58 PM PDT
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Reply-To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 
Hi All, 
 
I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV 
ranger. 
I've looked but can't find any.  
 
Anybody know of a supplier for this?
 
Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing.
 
jay
 
peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries for Polaris

[jay peltz]

Hi All,

I've got a call about lithium batteries for the battery powered polaris EV
ranger.
I've looked but can't find any.

Anybody know of a supplier for this?

Sorry in advance if this is supposed to go to marketing.

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries

[Ray Walters]

I'd try a set with a few adventurous customers, but the price needs to 
be really good for Beta testing.  Once you get a couple of years of 
proof of concept, and work out the charging details, etc. then your 
friend could set the price higher.  Its all about amp hours and cycle 
life.  If he can prove reliable performance for 300 or deep cycles, it 
could be worth while.
I definitely get inquiries.  Also some of us dabble in electric 
vehicles, where Li+ has more advantages.  Why were they taken out of 
service?


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified, Licensed Contractor
808 269-7491

On 2/20/2013 10:14 AM, William Korthof wrote:
Anyone have experience using lithium batteries for solar and/or backup 
power applications?


A friend in the EV development business has access to a large number 
of used EV battery packs that still have a good deal of life left in 
them. He's looking to find a market for them and solar/backup power 
seems potentially like a good application.


The batteries were configured as ~100 amp-hour nominal blocks, 
consisting of 2 series cell blocks (4.1 vdc open circuit).
The simple path I suggested was to start with 7-block packs (14 cells 
= ~56 vdc full charge) and battery management control.
The battery performance is excellent, and they should have a lot of 
life left, and are move compact/light weight than leads
(something like 50% less volume, and 70% less weight)---but are more 
geared toward power and high voltage to match the
needs for automotive usage. Penciling it out, it seems plausible that 
these could be priced competitive with new lead group

31 lead acid batteries...

I'm curious what is available (lithium) and if anything has a track 
record or cost benchmarks. Also curious what kind of

interest there might be in this kind of secondary battery offering.

William Korthof
Sustainable Solutions


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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

[Kevin Pegg]

Hi Jay, 

Corvus Energy and Outback Radian have an integrated lithium based solution they 
are just rolling out now. Ideally, the BMS can communicate directly with the 
inverter to control charge rate and that's what they have done here. 

The Corvus offerings have an operational range from 40.4 to 50.4 VDC. 

Kevin

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: January 24, 2013 7:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium batteries


HI All,

Is there a rough voltage range ( high/low nominal) for the lithium family of 
batteries?

I'm curious if our current range of inverters can work with these batteries, at 
least on the load side, probably not on the charging side.

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

[John Berdner]

Jay:

There are several lithium chemistries out there.
The exact voltages will depend on the chemistry but in general Lithium is 
around 3 V/cell.
I am liking LiFePO4 (China Aviation Lithium Battery - CALB) these days and they 
need:

Vnom = 3.2 V/Cell
Vcharge_max = 3.6 V/Cell (but this will require active battery management on a 
per cell basis).
Vcharge_max_good_idea = 3.5 V/Cell

Lithium is sensitive to overcharge and very bad things can happen if they are 
overcharged.
Active battery management and cell balancing is likely needed if they are to be 
stable over the long term.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America



SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 7:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

HI All,

Is there a rough voltage range ( high/low nominal) for the lithium family of 
batteries?

I'm curious if our current range of inverters can work with these batteries, at 
least on the load side, probably not on the charging side.

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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[RE-wrenches] lithium batteries

[jay peltz]

HI All,

Is there a rough voltage range ( high/low nominal) for the lithium family of 
batteries?

I'm curious if our current range of inverters can work with these batteries, at 
least on the load side, probably not on the charging side.

thanks,

jay

peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[James Surrette]

Hi Jeremy, 

How large a bank is your client looking for?   

We have worked with Corvus Energy on some projects but the numbers have never 
worked, yet, for off-grid. 

Regards, 

Jamie

>>> "Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc."  7/17/2012 12:01 
>>> AM >>>
I have a request for Lithium batteries (ion?). Not sure how to respond. The 
application is an off grid, part time mountain home
Any thoughts?

Thank you
Jeremy Ridriguez
All Solar
Colorado
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium Batteries

[Jeremy Rodriguez- All Solar Inc.]

I have a request for Lithium batteries (ion?). Not sure how to respond. The 
application is an off grid, part time mountain home
Any thoughts?

Thank you
Jeremy Ridriguez
All Solar
Colorado
Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.....

[R . Walters]

I agree with Mick there about using lead acid, that's just a few  
pounds for a bit of trouble. On the other hand if you're going to  
play with Li on solar, you might as well start small in case  
something cooks.

Keep us posted, I was wondering when one of us would try Li+.

Ray




In terms of practicality, a 10 amp hour (12 volt nominal) lead  
battery only weighs about 9 pounds. If lithium technology could  
reduce that weight by 2/3 you'll save 6 pounds but your client will  
pay dearly for it, and you'll wind up with an exotic batch of gear  
that's not easy to service or plug in replacement parts. Is it  
worth it? Be sure & report back to the List so we can all learn...


Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com


.

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R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442   



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.....

[Darryl Thayer]

Here is a far out idea.  Why not try to work with Li-ion from a battery tool.  
Such as a Ryobi LI-Ion battery, 18 volts, I would guess from performance they 
start new at 5 AH and 18 volts. The step down can come from AM or Solar 
Converters or one of the other step down converter people.  

Darryl

--- On Sun, 8/24/08, John Veix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From: John Veix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 3:45 PM
> Hi there,
> 
> I have a customer with a hot air balloon doesn't want
> to use F.L.A. deep cycle battery due to weight factors, but
> wants to use Li instead - and also wants to use  PV to
> charge it.
> 
> I have never looked into this, but he seems to think the Li
> battery charges at 16.8v.  The battery will be small,
> probably about 10 a/h and will be used for a transponder.
> 
> Can anyone enlighten me about the feasibility of this
> application.
> 
>
> cheers,John Veix,
> N.Z.___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.....

[mick abraham]

John Veix wrote:

"I have a customer with a hot air balloon (who) doesn't want to use F.L.A. deep 
cycle battery due to weight factors, but wants to use Li instead - and also 
wants to use PV to charge it."

Mick says: If one recalls the YouTube videos of flaming notebook computers, 
that underscores the importance of proper management where the lithium 
chemistries are concerned. (I believe) a charge algorithm for lead batteries 
cannot safely be used with lithium.

Southwest Electronic Energy:

http://www.swe.com/default.aspx

claims to have solutions for solar electric recharge of their lithium packs. 
This may be a good contact to pursue, but I have had no direct experience with 
SWE.

For lithium, I think you should seek a supplier that can offer "single source 
accountability" where the cells, battery balance system and the solar charge 
controller all come from the same vendor. Otherwise if there are problems with 
these costly cells, the battery vendor could blame the control regimen and the 
manufacturer of the power electronics could blame the cell supplier. You want 
no finger pointing, no wiggle room and a single warranty for the combined 
bundle of lithium pack plus "battery management system"...and the "BMS" should 
include a solar charge control circuit for your described application.

In terms of practicality, a 10 amp hour (12 volt nominal) lead battery only 
weighs about 9 pounds. If lithium technology could reduce that weight by 2/3 
you'll save 6 pounds but your client will pay dearly for it, and you'll wind up 
with an exotic batch of gear that's not easy to service or plug in replacement 
parts. Is it worth it? Be sure & report back to the List so we can all learn...

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

.

 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.....

[Michael Welch]

Hi John. Sounds like a good application for Li. Energy densities max out
around 95 WH per pound. Lead acid is up to 20 WH per pound.
Li batteries are about 3.3 volts per cell, so the pack your client is
looking at may be 4 or 5 cells in series.
It is probably important to buy a commercial pack, because most of these
batteries need their terminals welded into their series-parallel
connections -- not the sort of thing most wrenches are set up to
do.
Also, most Li packs include battery management systems to keep them
equalized and properly charged and discharged.
A123 Systems (

http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/UPS/ ) has what they call
"drop-in replacements" for 12 V lead-acid UPS systems, so maybe
those packs are appropriate for solar charging. I recommend talking to
applications engineers at the Li battery companies.
Aten Energy is also working on packs in 12 V nominal multiples.

http://www.atenenergy.biz/Foxx%20Specs.htm . A 12 V 10 AH pack weighs
about 5 lbs. Their web site is lame and old, so you might have to find
some other way of contacting them.
Here is an interesting product (11.4 AH) from the place where I buy my
NiMH household cells:

http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4089

Prepare your customer for sticker shock. 
John Veix wrote at 01:45 PM 8/24/2008:
 
Hi there,
 
I have a customer with a hot air balloon doesn't want to use F.L.A. deep
cycle battery due to weight factors, but wants to use Li instead - and
also wants to use  PV to charge it.
 
I have never looked into this, but he seems to think the Li battery
charges at 16.8v.  The battery will be small, probably about 10 a/h
and will be used for a transponder.
 
Can anyone enlighten me about the feasibility of this application.
 
   
cheers,   
John Veix, N.Z.


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[RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries.....

[John Veix]

Hi there,

I have a customer with a hot air balloon doesn't want to use F.L.A. deep cycle 
battery due to weight factors, but wants to use Li instead - and also wants to 
use  PV to charge it.

I have never looked into this, but he seems to think the Li battery charges at 
16.8v.  The battery will be small, probably about 10 a/h and will be used for a 
transponder.

Can anyone enlighten me about the feasibility of this application.

cheers, 
   John Veix, N.Z.___
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