Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

/members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to
> charge equally, with essentially no BMS.  Its not just max strings, but max
> # of cells, and that's double my maximum.
>
> You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of how
> long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the available
> capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I
> think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using batteries
> for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer suffering come
> into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of
> life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage.
>
> Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on
> another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have more
> cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements.
> Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are going to start
> failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop)
>
> Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD)
> can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on the CC to
> switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote
> switch, if its something else, you might have to actually switch off a
> relay on the AC output.
>
> Ray
> On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a
> different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I
> researched it and asked my peers.
>
>
>
> The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want
> to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the
> prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank
> before planning to replace.
>
>
>
> Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices.
> So he knows roughly where he is heading.
>
>
>
> Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree
> that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply
> because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a client with essentially
> nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2
> strings, they can make due at least. That'll go out the window with Lithium
> though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this
> client. But we will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed.
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
> --
>
>
>
> Danny Young
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
>
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
>
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
> Indianapolis
>
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
>
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
>
> da...@sesre.com
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches 
>  *On Behalf Of *Dave Angelini
> Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> 
> *Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank
>
>
>
> 5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for
> a new bank.
>
> I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10
> years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.
>
>
>
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"*
>
> *http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>*
>
> *e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net *
>
> *text 209 813 0060*
>
>
>
> On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
>
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>
>
>
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
> batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
> from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
> Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net
> result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
> freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
> the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
> 3hr one way drive to swa

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

mer and installer suffering come into play, as well as the 
fact they'll use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more 
corrosion damage.

Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on another 2 
years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have more cells fail by 
the time you return with the prorated warranty replacements.  Certainly rolling 
into the summer months, more cells are going to start failing like pop corn. 
(Pop, pop, pop)

Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially LVD) can 
be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on the CC to switch 
off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, they have a remote switch, if 
its something else, you might have to actually switch off a relay on the AC 
output.

Ray

On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different 
battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and 
asked my peers.



The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go 
down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated 
warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before 
planning to replace.



Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he 
knows roughly where he is heading.



Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 
3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if 
a single cell goes bad, I don't want a client with essentially nothing 
available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they 
can make due at least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking 
at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see 
what changes in the market by the time it's needed.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>



From: RE-wrenches 
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>
 On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank



5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a 
new bank.

I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years 
life, so maybe there is better advice out there.



Good Luck!



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>

text 209 813 0060



On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy S

Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Multiple battery banks of different topology work fine charging and 
discharging. Think about how you can do it and not how you can't.


Any takers?

-

John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches [4] Thu, 06 Apr 2023 15:06:08 -0700 
[5]


Multiple battery banks work well as long as you are consuming.  When
charging the charge parameters change.  I'm running 8 Interstate L16's, 
1

Fortress e-flex, And 3 Simpliphi 3.8. With big switches between them.  I
was using all three but changing charge parameters on
My two controllers and inverter got to be too much trouble.  I ran all 
with
lithium settings but I'm retiring the L16s and putting in a second 
eFlex.
 2 eFlex or 3 Simpliphis do a great job replacing the 8.  The 3 
simpliphis

will be leaving for their summer home at a fishing club. Hi

John B

On 2023-04-06 8:43 am, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
wrote:


And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of 
battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch 
the DC bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just 
turned off sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a 
monthly test like it is a genset.


This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it 
becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide 
a spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the 
offgrid home.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote:

Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes 
from Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome 
classes and I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 
Powerstroke diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were 
developing. The lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great 
power, fast but when something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go 
to the manufacturer.


Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post.

Scot

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf 
Of Tump via RE-wrenches

Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Tump 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery 
bank


I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery 
voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many 
times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi 
voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the 
system shut down in full sun.


Another thing; IF you have battery strings,  cables of equal length 
from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to 
inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop 
as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on 
internal resistance).


I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 
2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah 
there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is 
always my choice.  OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable 
battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing 
their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 
Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had 
issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR 
to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic 
covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install.


Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can 
spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette 
warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when 
Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings.


My $.02 TUMP

On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length 
conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main 
problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the 
customer with 72 cells to check and fill.  That's a lot of work if you 
don't have a watering system.


I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a 
battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the 
battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get 
replacements - during the best of times.


Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 
48V system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go.  
That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should 
be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) 
show up.  Need to check and

Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Multiple battery banks work well as long as you are consuming.  When
charging the charge parameters change.  I’m running 8 Interstate L16’s, 1
Fortress e-flex, And 3 Simpliphi 3.8. With big switches between them.  I
was using all three but changing charge parameters on
My two controllers and inverter got to be too much trouble.  I ran all with
lithium settings but I’m retiring the L16s and putting in a second eFlex.
 2 eFlex or 3 Simpliphis do a great job replacing the 8.  The 3 simpliphis
will be leaving for their summer home at a fishing club. Hi

John B




On Thu, Apr 6, 2023 at 11:50 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of
> battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch the DC
> bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just turned off
> sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a monthly test like
> it is a genset.
>
> This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it
> becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide a
> spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the offgrid
> home.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes from
> Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome classes and
> I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 Powerstroke
> diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were developing. The
> lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great power, fast but when
> something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go to the manufacturer.
>
>
>
> Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post.
>
>
>
> Scot
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Tump via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Cc:* Tump 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery
> bank
>
>
>
> I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery
> voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on
> very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out
> settings, as this can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full
> sun.
>
> Another thing; IF you have battery strings,  cables of equal length from
> each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or
> inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as
> providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance).
>
> I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2
> volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there
> heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my
> choice.  OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette
> has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one
> has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same
> plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using
> the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the
> positive side. I have had the plastic covers installed incorrectly and it
> plays havoc on your install.
>
> Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can
> spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette
> warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve
> OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings.
>
> My $.02 TUMP
>
>
>
> On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use *equal length
> conductors* for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main problem
> I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72
> cells to check and fill.  That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering
> system.
>
> I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a
> battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the
> battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get
> replacements - during the best of times.
>
> Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V
> system.   You just set the charging param

Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

And the next step for hi reliability offgrid is to have both types of 
battery in there own independent inverter power systems. Just switch the 
DC bus from one power system or the other. I like the LFP just turned 
off sitting as a spare power system. You can rotate or do a monthly test 
like it is a genset.


This is also a good way to use up the old flooded and retire it when it 
becomes useless and ready to recycle. Some LFP manufactures do provide a 
spare BMS but probably better to just have an extra battery at the 
offgrid home.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-05 6:30 pm, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches wrote:

Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes 
from Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome 
classes and I walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 
Powerstroke diesel…I could work on them and could see when issues were 
developing. The lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great 
power, fast but when something happens with a BMS…no idea except to go 
to the manufacturer.


Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post.

Scot

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf 
Of Tump via RE-wrenches

Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Tump 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery 
bank


I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery 
voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many 
times on very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi 
voltage cut out settings, as this can be a real bummer having the 
system shut down in full sun.


Another thing; IF you have battery strings,  cables of equal length 
from each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to 
inverter or inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop 
as well as providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on 
internal resistance).


I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 
2 volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah 
there heavy but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is 
always my choice.  OR the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable 
battery Surrette has put out. After almost 30 + years of installing 
their batteries this one has been the best. They do have a EX series 2 
Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 CS but I have had 
issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the polarity PRIOR 
to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the plastic 
covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install.


Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can 
spot problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette 
warrantee Pit BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when 
Steve OKs a replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings.


My $.02 TUMP

On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length 
conductors for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main 
problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the 
customer with 72 cells to check and fill.  That's a lot of work if you 
don't have a watering system.


I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose 
a battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from 
the battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get 
replacements - during the best of times.


Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 
48V system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go. 
 That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank 
should be able to keep them limping along until the replacement 
battery(s) show up.  Need to check and make sure your charge 
controller and inverter can charge at the slightly higher V but 
usually that's not a problem.


Best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.

g...@remotepowerinc.com

Message: 1

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +

From: Daniel Young 

To: "offgridso...@sti.net" , RE-wrenches



Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

Message-ID:



Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a 
different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I 
researched it and asked my peers.


The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really 
want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls 
under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years 
out of the bank before planning to replace.


Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays 
prices. So he knows roughly where he

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[frenergy via RE-wrenches]

s, they can make due at 
least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at 
Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we 
will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com <mailto:da...@sesre.com>

*From:* RE-wrenches  
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On Behalf Of 
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches  
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get 
ready for a new bank.


I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer 
to 10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.


Good Luck!

  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"*
*http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
<http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>*

*e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>*
*text 209 813 0060*

On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have
given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated
warranty.

The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non
Rolls batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form
factor FLA batteries from a local battery house for the same
price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that also means
they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight,
and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something
off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)

Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands
like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements)
both dead batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years.
(they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance
seriously)

I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to
let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know
what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different
brand. In my head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub
par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the
same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
batteries would cause.

Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give
them a fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to
lithium when the whole battery bank finally gives out.

With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com <mailto:da...@sesre.com>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Scot Arey via RE-wrenches]

Just attended the NABCEP conference last week and took in CEU classes from
Rolls and Midnite on battery charging and design. Just awesome classes and I
walked away thinking the FLA were kind of like my old 7.3 Powerstroke
diesel.I could work on them and could see when issues were developing. The
lithium batteries are kind of like my 6.7 PSD. Great power, fast but when
something happens with a BMS.no idea except to go to the manufacturer.

 

Just wanted to share this after reading your awesome post.

 

Scot

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of
Tump via RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, April 5, 2023 6:24 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Tump 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

 

I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery
voltages is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on
very remote sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out
settings, as this can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full
sun. 

Another thing; IF you have battery strings,  cables of equal length from
each string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or
inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as
providing equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance).

I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2
volt cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there heavy
but for hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my choice.  OR
the Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette has put out.
After almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one has been the
best. They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same plate thickness
as the 6 CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt
check the polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the positive side. I have
had the plastic covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your
install.

Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can spot
problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette warrantee Pit
BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve OKs a
replacement because you have recorded your Spg readings.

My $.02 TUMP

  

On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > wrote:

 

Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length conductors
for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main problem I have with 3
strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 cells to check
and fill.  That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering system.  

I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a
battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the
battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get
replacements - during the best of times.  

Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V
system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go.  That way
if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able to
keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up.  Need to
check and make sure your charge controller and inverter can charge at the
slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem.  

Best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.

g...@remotepowerinc.com <mailto:g...@remotepowerinc.com> 






Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +
From: Daniel Young  <mailto:da...@sesre.com> 
To:  <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> "offgridso...@sti.net"
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> , RE-wrenches
   <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank
Message-ID:
 
<mailto:bl1pr12mb5921cde5991f65fa842bc82cbb...@bl1pr12mb5921.namprd12.prod.o
utlook.com>

  
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
 
Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different
battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and
asked my peers.
 
The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to
go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the
prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank
before planning to replace.
 
Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So
he knows roughly where he is heading.
 
Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree
that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply
because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially
nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2
strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium
though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank fo

Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Tump via RE-wrenches]

I would suggest that adding additional batteries to increase battery voltages 
is fine 48 to 54V or what ever, I too have used this many times on very remote 
sites. Please also increase your inverters hi voltage cut out settings, as this 
can be a real bummer having the system shut down in full sun. 
Another thing; IF you have battery strings,  cables of equal length from each 
string should be connected to a buss bar then buss bar to inverter or 
inverters, this will reduce wiring headaches, voltage drop as well as providing 
equal charging to all strings. (depending on internal resistance).
I would also suggest fewer batteries of bigger cells. My preference is 2 volt 
cells, less holes to water, less copper interconnects. Yeah there heavy but for 
hi charging & discharging, a large battery is always my choice.  OR the 
Surrette 6CS25P has been the MOST reliable battery Surrette has put out. After 
almost 30 + years of installing their batteries this one has been the best. 
They do have a EX series 2 Volt cell that has the same plate thickness as the 6 
CS but I have had issues w/ them. IF you are using the EX 2 volt check the 
polarity PRIOR to installing them & mark the positive side. I have had the 
plastic covers installed incorrectly and it plays havoc on your install.
Yep LEADITE I am, refractometer and a DVOM and I have a client that can spot 
problems way before things become critical. AND that Surrette warrantee Pit 
BULL Mr. Higgins & your client will be very happy when Steve OKs a replacement 
because you have recorded your Spg readings.
My $.02 TUMP
  
> On Apr 5, 2023, at 5:26 PM, greg egan via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> 
> Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use equal length conductors 
> for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main problem I have with 3 
> strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the customer with 72 cells to check 
> and fill.  That's a lot of work if you don't have a watering system.  
> 
> I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a 
> battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the 
> battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get 
> replacements - during the best of times.  
> 
> Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 48V 
> system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go.  That way 
> if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should be able to keep 
> them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show up.  Need to check 
> and make sure your charge controller and inverter can charge at the slightly 
> higher V but usually that's not a problem.  
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
> 
> g...@remotepowerinc.com <mailto:g...@remotepowerinc.com>
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +
> From: Daniel Young  <mailto:da...@sesre.com>
> To: "offgridso...@sti.net" <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net> 
>  <mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>, RE-wrenches
>
> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank
> Message-ID:
>   
> 
>  
> <mailto:bl1pr12mb5921cde5991f65fa842bc82cbb...@bl1pr12mb5921.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different 
> battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and 
> asked my peers.
> 
> The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to 
> go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the 
> prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank 
> before planning to replace.
> 
> Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So 
> he knows roughly where he is heading.
> 
> Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree 
> that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply 
> because if a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially 
> nothing available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 
> strings, they can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium 
> though. Looking at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. 
> But we will see what changes in the market by the time it?s needed.
> 
> With Regards,
> --
> 
> Danny Young
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
> 513-448-5176 (mo

[RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[greg egan via RE-wrenches]

Danny, My experience is if you are careful and use _equal length 
conductors_ for all 3 strings you can get good results.  The main 
problem I have with 3 strings of 6 V cells @ 48 vdc is leaving the 
customer with 72 cells to check and fill.  That's a lot of work if you 
don't have a watering system.


I totally get why you'd want to give them 2 strings in case they lose a 
battery or 2.  Most of my off grid customers live quite a ways from the 
battery store and it's not uncommon for it to take a month to get 
replacements - during the best of times.


Another option I've done is give them a string of 25 - 2V cells for a 
48V system.   You just set the charging parameters accordingly and go.  
That way if they lose a cell or two, the remaining battery bank should 
be able to keep them limping along until the replacement battery(s) show 
up.  Need to check and _make sure_ your charge controller and inverter 
can charge at the slightly higher V but usually that's not a problem.


Best,

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.

g...@remotepowerinc.com



Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2023 20:45:44 +
From: Daniel Young
To:"offgridso...@sti.net"  , RE-wrenches

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank
Message-ID:



Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different 
battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and 
asked my peers.

The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go 
down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated 
warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before 
planning to replace.

Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he 
knows roughly where he is heading.

Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 
3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if 
a single cell goes bad, I don?t want a client with essentially nothing 
available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they 
can make due at least. That?ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking 
at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see 
what changes in the market by the time it?s needed.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

I highly recommend _against_ the 2v L16s.  You are not going to a better 
battery, or fewer cells; just the cells are wired internally, making it 
very difficult to assess each cell independently.  I trouble shot a 
system of Trojan 2 v L16s, that was only 2 years old, but was trying to 
run a large compound.  I had to use my infared camera to ID the dead 
cells, and there were plenty of them, but each individual"2v" battery 
had correct voltage.


A system anywhere in this size range needs to go to real 2 v cells, like 
the HUP or other large format battery that is designed for what you are 
trying to do.  L16s are the equivalent of buying 4 VW bugs, when you 
really need one 3/4 ton Dodge.


Do yourself and your customers a favor, and save the L16s for systems 
that require less than 800 AH.   Batteries are the number one source of 
failure and dissatisfaction off grid.  Don't cheap out.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 4/4/2023 5:42 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hurts my head !  Agree that you will have more trips to this house 
after the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more 
years. All of the wiring is good, clean, and tight?  Who really knows 
how long it could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall.
Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of 
capacity choices there from Rolls and others.

Almost Cheers time !
  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net text 
209 813 0060*



On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:

So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying 
to charge equally, with essentially no BMS. Its not just max strings, 
but max # of cells, and that's double my maximum.


You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part 
of how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the 
available capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but 
in this case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm 
into using batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer 
and installer suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll 
use much more water at the end of life, and cause a lot more 
corrosion damage.


Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on 
another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have 
more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty 
replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells 
are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop)


Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially 
LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on 
the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, 
they have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to 
actually switch off a relay on the AC output.


Ray

On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:


Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a 
different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I 
researched it and asked my peers.


The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really 
want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two 
Rolls under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful 
years out of the bank before planning to replace.


Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays 
prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading.


Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible 
(agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best 
option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a 
client with essentially nothing available until we can get a 
replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at 
least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at 
Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we 
will see what changes in the market by the time it's needed.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com <mailto:da...@sesre.com>

*From:* RE-wrenches  
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On Behalf Of 
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches  
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
*Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  
<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get 
ready for a new bank.


I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer 
to 10 years life, so ma

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Hurts my head !  Agree that you will have more trips to this house after 
the next one. This is most likely not going to get you 2 more years. All 
of the wiring is good, clean, and tight?  Who really knows how long it 
could last? Probably fine thru summer and fall.


Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells. Lot's of 
capacity choices there from Rolls and others.


Almost Cheers time !

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:

So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to 
charge equally, with essentially no BMS.  Its not just max strings, but 
max # of cells, and that's double my maximum.


You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of 
how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the available 
capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this 
case, I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using 
batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer 
suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more 
water at the end of life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage.


Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on 
another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have 
more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty 
replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are 
going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop)


Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially 
LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on 
the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, they 
have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to actually 
switch off a relay on the AC output.


Ray

On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a 
different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I 
researched it and asked my peers.


The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really 
want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls 
under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years 
out of the bank before planning to replace.


Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays 
prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading.


Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible 
(agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best 
option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don't want a 
client with essentially nothing available until we can get a 
replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at 
least. That'll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at 
Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will 
see what changes in the market by the time it's needed.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf 
Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches

Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready 
for a new bank.


I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 
10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.


Good Luck!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net

text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up 
the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.


The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls 
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA 
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to 
get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for 
freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the 
batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we 
provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do 
need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)


Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.


Whole battery bank is near the 5yr

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that are trying to 
charge equally, with essentially no BMS.  Its not just max strings, but 
max # of cells, and that's double my maximum.


You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the other big part of 
how long L16s will last.  If the customer is barely using the available 
capacity, I've seen batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, 
I think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into using 
batteries for as long as possible as well, but customer and installer 
suffering come into play, as well as the fact they'll use much more 
water at the end of life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage.


Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not reasonable to plan on 
another 2 years of service.  My guess is that you will probably have 
more cells fail by the time you return with the prorated warranty 
replacements.  Certainly rolling into the summer months, more cells are 
going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop, pop, pop)


Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming, (especially 
LVD) can be tricky with older inverters.  I had to use the aux out on 
the CC to switch off the inverters.  IF the inverters are Outback, they 
have a remote switch, if its something else, you might have to actually 
switch off a relay on the AC output.


Ray

On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:


Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a 
different battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I 
researched it and asked my peers.


The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really 
want to go down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls 
under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years 
out of the bank before planning to replace.


Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays 
prices. So he knows roughly where he is heading.


Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible 
(agree that 3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best 
option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I don’t want a 
client with essentially nothing available until we can get a 
replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they can make due at 
least. That’ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking at 
Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will 
see what changes in the market by the time it’s needed.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Cc:* Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready 
for a new bank.


I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 
10 years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.


Good Luck!

  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"*
*http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/*
*e-mail offgridso...@sti.net*
*text 209 813 0060*

On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have
given up the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated
warranty.

The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going
to get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to
pay for freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by
getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the
batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back
in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way
drive to swap the batteries)

Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like
this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both
dead batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years.
(they baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance
seriously)

I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to
let them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know
what the chances are of swapping in batteries from a different
brand. In my head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub
par, they will likely just get older faster, and fail around the
same time as the rest of the 4-5yr o

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different 
battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and 
asked my peers.

The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go 
down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated 
warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before 
planning to replace.

Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he 
knows roughly where he is heading.

Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 
3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if 
a single cell goes bad, I don’t want a client with essentially nothing 
available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they 
can make due at least. That’ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking 
at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see 
what changes in the market by the time it’s needed.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a 
new bank.
I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years 
life, so maybe there is better advice out there.

Good Luck!



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>

text 209 813 0060



On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>



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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready 
for a new bank.
I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 
years life, so maybe there is better advice out there.


Good Luck!

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up 
the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.


The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls 
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA 
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to 
get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don't need to pay for 
freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the 
batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we 
provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do 
need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)


Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.


Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they 
baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)


I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let 
them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the 
chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my 
head, I don't see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will 
likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the rest 
of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if there are any more 
subtle issue that these other batteries would cause.


Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a 
fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when 
the whole battery bank finally gives out.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Danny

Lots of variables.  As the warranty is over, that is no longer a concern to 
deal with
The fact that you’ve had 2 go bad at the 5 year point, usually means you can 
expect other failures soon.  

There are 2 options I’ve done.
1. is to hi grade the battery bank into best 16 batteries, but that only works 
if that capacity is enough. Then as you get more failures in the near future ( 
probably) you’ll have extras to pop in.

2. is to go buy as close as possible another L16.  Given the age of them, a new 
battery is going to be in the ball park to the same capacity.  The chemistry of 
the rolls likes  2.5vpc but as they age that goes down in my experience as they 
begin to use way too much water.  So that allows the newer battery to actually 
be a better match. 

But you’re probably only looking at another few years to go.  My attitude with 
older batteries is they are already paid for, you  might as well use the crap 
out of them, treat them hard as they don’t have long to live. And most people 
just don’t have the extra money to just go out and buy a new expensive battery 
bank.  


jay




  



> On Apr 3, 2023, at 11:03 AM, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
>  
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>  
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries 
> to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
> battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And 
> that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that 
> they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no 
> markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup 
> back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive 
> to swap the batteries)
>  
> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?
>  
> 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
> batteries are on the same string.
> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby 
> the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)
>  
> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them 
> shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are 
> of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a 
> big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, 
> and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But 
> I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries 
> would cause.
>  
> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
> shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
> battery bank finally gives out.
>  
> With Regards,
> --
>  
> Danny Young
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
> da...@sesre.com 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

My 2 cents:  L16s are not a good choice in the first place. Compare the 
cycle life vs cost.
2nd that sounds like way too many batteries/ strings and definitely a 
candidate for larger format 2 v cells or Li+.


I second William's idea of creating 2 strings of the best cells, and 
start shopping for a better solution. You're going to start playing wack 
a mole, replace a couple of batteries now, a couple more in 2 months, 
and so on, until both you and the client are in tears. Put all that 
money and effort towards a new battery.


If they want sealed, Li+ is really the only decent choice, I've seen 
less than 5 years from sealed L16s like Trojan.  Full River is about the 
best in that field, and still only going to see 7 to 8 years.  It just 
doesn't pencil out compared to HUPs or Li+.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 4/3/2023 12:39 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


Daniel:

I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had 
failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and 
chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain 
constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took 
until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more.


The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty 
relief in part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 
7 months apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket.


If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would 
extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  
My guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a 
hastened decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done 
over many years.


I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.  
Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  
Three strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple 
parallel strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process 
I call “battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the 
higher voltage batteries over time.


If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the 
best batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then 
redesign the system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two 
volt cells are a practical way to achieve this.


Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are 
using the proper temperature compensation value applied to all 
charging sources.  Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and 
proved good ventilation.


I hope this helps.

William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches

*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Daniel Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up 
the ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.


The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls 
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA 
batteries from a local battery house for the same price I am going to 
get the new Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for 
freight. The net result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the 
batteries locally. No freight, and no markup on the batteries we 
provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as labor, we do 
need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)


Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.


Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they 
baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)


I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let 
them shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the 
chances are of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my 
head, I don’t see a big issue, even if they are sub par, they will 
likely just get older faster, and fail around the same time as the 
rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m unsure if there are any 
more subtle issue that these other batteries would cause.


Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a 
fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when 
the whole battery bank finally gives out.


With Regards,

--

Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | 
Indianapolis


5

Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Daniel:



I feel your pain:  In October of 2021 one of our off-grid clients had
failed flooded L-16 batteries.  We needed 16 replacement batteries and
chose Rolls VRLA batteries.  We could not get 16 due to supply chain
constraints so we went for 8 with a back order for another 8.  It took
until May of 2022 before we could get 8 more.



The Rolls batteries subsequently failed.  We were denied warranty relief in
part because we mixed the exact same batteries but delivered 7 months
apart.  The cost of resolution came out of my pocket.



If you can’t mix the same batteries of slightly different age, I would
extrapolate that you can’t mix batteries of different manufacturer.  My
guess is if you mix batteries the entire array would experience a hastened
decline.  This conclusion is consistent with research done over many years.



I looked up the S550 batteries and learned they are 6 volts units.
Assuming the system is 48 volt nominal this would be 3 strings of 8.  Three
strings is pushing the envelope of acceptable design.  Multiple parallel
strings encourage circulating currents resulting in a process I call
“battery cannibalism”:  Lower voltage batteries discharge the higher
voltage batteries over time.



If it were me I would rearrange the batteries into two strings of the best
batteries and wait for the rest of them to fail.  I would then redesign the
system for one string with an appropriate AH rating.  Two volt cells are a
practical way to achieve this.



Also look carefully at your thermal compliance.  Make sure you are using
the proper temperature compensation value applied to all charging sources.
Avoid re-radiated heat from sunlit surfaces and proved good ventilation.



I hope this helps.



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Young via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Monday, April 3, 2023 11:04 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Daniel Young
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank



Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net
result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby
the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them
shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are
of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a
big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older
faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery
bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
batteries would cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Daniel,
If it was me, I wouldn't do it.  The biggest issue is that dissimilar
batteries (as well as different age batteries) have different internal
resistance.  This will only exacerbate the problem with running multiple
strings of batteries - that is they will charge and discharge at different
rates, causing the individual batteries to drift farther and farther
apart.  And even if the new batteries settled down into a similar
charge/discharge routine as the remaining bank, my experience has been that
often, when a couple batteries in a larger bank die, they are only the
first of many to find their way to becoming boat anchors. So you will
potentially find yourself needing replacement of more batteries sooner than
you'll be happy about.
My suggestion would be to sort through the remaining batteries to find the
healthiest 16 (through load and specific gravity testing), rearrange the
bank into 2 strings of 8, keeping the others for replacement of future
potential failures.  This will give you some breathing room to propare to
make the investment into a full replacement bank, be it Lead-Acid or
Lithium.
Howie

*Howie Michaelson**Sun Catcher*

*NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™*

*Solar Electric Systems Sales & Service802-272-0004*


On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 2:04 PM Daniel Young via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
>
> Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the
> ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.
>
>
>
> The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls
> batteries to save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries
> from a local battery house for the same price I am going to get the new
> Rolls for. And that also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net
> result is that they could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No
> freight, and no markup on the batteries we provide (I can technically add
> the lost markup back in as labor, we do need to make something off of the
> 3hr one way drive to swap the batteries)
>
>
>
> Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?
>
>
>
> 3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead
> batteries are on the same string.
>
> Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
>
> The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they
> baby the battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)
>
>
>
> I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them
> shoot themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are
> of swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a
> big issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older
> faster, and fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery
> bank. But I’m unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other
> batteries would cause.
>
>
>
> Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a
> fair shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the
> whole battery bank finally gives out.
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
> --
>
>
>
> Danny Young
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
>
> Engineering Team Lead
> Solar Energy Solutions
>
> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
> Indianapolis
>
> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
>
> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
>
> da...@sesre.com
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.

The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)

Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.
Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)

I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.

Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

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