Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[Kirpal Khalsa via RE-wrenches]

William.
We have used FM100's, 80's and 60's to charge numerous brands of lithium
batteries with no troubles.
I don't think you will have any issues in this regard.

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:49 AM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI William,
>
> Yes the FM-100 has no problem with keeping the volts pretty tight and i’ve
> not heard of any lithium related issues, and someone is bound to chime in
> if there are.
>
> jay
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 9:39 AM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
> I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s.
> It seems to me this might solve a few problems:
>
> 1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries
> go higher Z.
> 2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes
> out.
> 3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay.
> 4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent.
>
> My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine
> enough to work reliably?
>
> Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries?  Any
> advice?
>
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi William,
>>
>> Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly?
>>
>> I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver.  Thats why I
>> suggested the tristar with RD-1.
>> Because really volts at full is the most accurate.
>> Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade.
>>
>>
>> jay
>>
>> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Jay:
>>
>> Thank you for taking the time.
>>
>> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution.
>>
>> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this
>> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the
>> BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes
>> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value.
>>
>>
>> William Miller
>> Miller Solar.com 
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  wrote:
>>
>>> A possible fix.
>>>
>>> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage
>>> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>>>
>>> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay
>>> that has 4 channels.
>>>
>>> Just a thought
>>>
>>> jay
>>>
>>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny
>>> Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>>>
>>>
>>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power
>>> Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when
>>> nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system
>>> shuts down.  Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this
>>> is a real problem and they are working on a solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
>>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
>>> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
>>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
>>> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
>>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
>>> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
>>> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
>>> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
>>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
>>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
>>> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
>>> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
>>> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>>>
>>>
>>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have
>>> heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would
>>> be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
>>> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
>>> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
>>> and

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI William,

Yes the FM-100 has no problem with keeping the volts pretty tight and i’ve not 
heard of any lithium related issues, and someone is bound to chime in if there 
are.

jay



> On May 8, 2024, at 9:39 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Jay:
> 
> I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s.  It 
> seems to me this might solve a few problems:
> 
> 1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries go 
> higher Z. 
> 2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes out.  
> 3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay. 
> 4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent. 
> 
> My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine 
> enough to work reliably?
> 
> Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries?  Any 
> advice?
> 
> 
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay  > wrote:
> Hi William,
> 
> Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly?
> 
> I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver.  Thats why I suggested 
> the tristar with RD-1.
> Because really volts at full is the most accurate.
> Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade.
> 
> 
> jay
> 
>> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller > > wrote:
>> 
>> Jay:
>> 
>> Thank you for taking the time. 
>> 
>> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. 
>> 
>> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this 
>> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the 
>> BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes 
>> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. 
>> 
>> 
>> William Miller
>> Miller Solar.com 
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay > > wrote:
>> A possible fix.
>> 
>> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered 
>> to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>> 
>> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that 
>> has 4 channels.
>> 
>> Just a thought
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>>> >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Friends:
>>>  
>>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy 
>>> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.  
>>>  
>>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control 
>>> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full 
>>> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.  
>>> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real 
>>> problem and they are working on a solution.
>>>  
>>> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged 
>>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of 
>>> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The 
>>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as 
>>> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery 
>>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>>>  
>>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt 
>>> to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>>>  
>>> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny 
>>> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough 
>>> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not 
>>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA 
>>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible 
>>> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual 
>>> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is 
>>> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>>>  
>>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard 
>>> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a 
>>> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>>>  
>>> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and 
>>> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a 
>>> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up 
>>> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the 
>>> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>>>  
>>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some d

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

I am considering ditching the Sunny Boys and installing 2 Outback FM100s.
It seems to me this might solve a few problems:

1. The cc should voltage clamp and prevent over voltage when the batteries
go higher Z.
2. The CCs should start up at lower voltages as soon as the sun comes out.
3. One of the FM 100s could be configured to drive an AGS relay.
4. The operation would be voltage dependent, not SOC dependent.

My concern is the shallow voltage/charge curve. Can I set this system fine
enough to work reliably?

Has anyone used Outback charge controllers with lithium batteries?  Any
advice?


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:30 AM jay  wrote:

> Hi William,
>
> Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly?
>
> I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver.  Thats why I
> suggested the tristar with RD-1.
> Because really volts at full is the most accurate.
> Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade.
>
>
> jay
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
> Jay:
>
> Thank you for taking the time.
>
> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution.
>
> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this
> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the
> BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes
> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value.
>
>
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
>
>
> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  wrote:
>
>> A possible fix.
>>
>> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage
>> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>>
>> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay
>> that has 4 channels.
>>
>> Just a thought
>>
>> jay
>>
>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
>> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>>
>>
>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
>> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
>> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
>> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
>> problem and they are working on a solution.
>>
>>
>> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
>> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
>> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>>
>>
>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
>> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>>
>>
>> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
>> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
>> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
>> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
>> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
>> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>>
>>
>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
>> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
>> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>>
>>
>> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
>> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
>> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
>> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
>> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>>
>>
>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
>> worth my time typing it out.
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi William,

Since the SOC isn’t being reliable maybe due to not charging correctly?

I would recommend going to volts for the relay driver.  Thats why I suggested 
the tristar with RD-1.
Because really volts at full is the most accurate.
Not knowing how many PV inputs you could do a cascade.


jay

> On May 8, 2024, at 9:00 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Jay:
> 
> Thank you for taking the time. 
> 
> We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution. 
> 
> The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this 
> relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the BMS 
> units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes 
> problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value. 
> 
> 
> William Miller
> Miller Solar.com
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com 
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  > wrote:
> A possible fix.
> 
> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered 
> to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
> 
> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that 
> has 4 channels.
> 
> Just a thought
> 
> jay
> 
>> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>> > > wrote:
>> 
>> Friends:
>>  
>> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC 
>> coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.  
>>  
>> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control 
>> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full 
>> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.  
>> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real 
>> problem and they are working on a solution.
>>  
>> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged 
>> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of 
>> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The 
>> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as 
>> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery 
>> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>>  
>> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt 
>> to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>>  
>> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny 
>> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough 
>> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not 
>> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA 
>> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible 
>> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but 
>> I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is pretty 
>> scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>>  
>> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard of 
>> this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a huge 
>> pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>>  
>> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told 
>> the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a very 
>> small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and 
>> allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system 
>> for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>>  
>> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was worth 
>> my time typing it out.
>>  
>> William
>>  
>> Miller Solar
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com 
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>  
>>  
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Jay:

Thank you for taking the time.

We are doing just what you suggest as an interim solution.

The shortcoming of this work-around is that the highest setting for this
relay function is 90% SOC. This may not be high enough to recalibrate the
BMS units. And again, relying on SOC to drive operational decisions becomes
problematic when one can’t rely on the accuracy of the SOC value.


William Miller
Miller Solar.com
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 7:16 AM jay  wrote:

> A possible fix.
>
> You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage
> triggered to prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.
>
> The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay
> that has 4 channels.
>
> Just a thought
>
> jay
>
> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
> Friends:
>
>
> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>
>
> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
> problem and they are working on a solution.
>
>
> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>
>
> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>
>
> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>
>
> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>
>
> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>
>
> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
> worth my time typing it out.
>
>
> William
>
>
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

William,
We have had this same SOC calibration issue with a dual stack of XW Pro (AC
couple with Solaredge) and 2 eVault Max as well (other issues as well).
Schneider's solution was to use voltage (open loop), not SOC, for the XW's
programming.  We weren't very happy about that since trying to do things
like peak shaving and self consumption on voltage settings is clunky at
best.  I have not heard any adequate solutions to this issue from Fortress
to date. Disappointing, since closed loop operation was one of the supposed
significant benefits of these batteries.

Howie
Sun Catcher

On Wed, May 8, 2024, 1:16 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>
>
>
> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
> problem and they are working on a solution.
>
>
>
> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>
>
>
> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>
>
>
> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>
>
>
> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>
>
>
> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
> worth my time typing it out.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[jay via RE-wrenches]

A possible fix.

You could run a DC relay on the SB PV input that would be voltage triggered to 
prevent the battery volts from getting higher than you want.

The SI has 2 aux relays I think?  Or could do a tristar with RD-1 relay that 
has 4 channels.

Just a thought

jay

> On May 7, 2024, at 11:11 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Friends:
>  
> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC 
> coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.  
>  
> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control 
> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full 
> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.  
> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real 
> problem and they are working on a solution.
>  
> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged 
> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of 
> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The SI 
> system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high 
> the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets 
> too low and the system shuts down.
>  
> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt 
> to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>  
> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands 
> to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for 
> some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not charge 
> the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA but they 
> told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries.  I 
> asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told 
> this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is pretty scary 
> anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>  
> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard of 
> this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a huge 
> pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>  
> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told 
> the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a very 
> small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and 
> allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system 
> for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>  
> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was worth 
> my time typing it out.
>  
> William
>  
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
>  
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi WilliamHave you talked to fortress about the SOC getting so out of calibration in such a short period of time?JayOn May 7, 2024, at 11:16 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Friends: I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.   As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.  Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real problem and they are working on a solution. Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery voltage gets too low and the system shuts down. I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet. Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try. SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc. Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now. Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was worth my time typing it out. William Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bootstrapping and AC Coupled Sunny Island

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

William,
  I have often installed an iota DLS charger on systems with Fortress
batteries to jump start the battery if it shuts down due to low voltage
when the generator has failed. A small generator such as a Honda 2000 can
get the system running.  We even managed to keep an off grid rental ski
house with 8 people there for a Holiday weekend running
With a Honda 2000 regularly refueled by the renter.  The system is an 8000
watt Radian and 1 eVault, 5Kw of solar and 12 Kw generator which had failed
brushes. If the battery shuts itself off due to low voltage solar becomes
worthless as well.

John Blittersdorf




On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 1:17 AM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> I am still wrestling with problems integrating a Sunny Island / Sunny Boy
> AC coupled system to a set of 5 E-vault Max battery cabinets.
>
>
>
> As a refresher, with closed loop comms, the Frequency Shift Power Control
> system is not working, or not working quickly enough, and when nearing full
> charge, the voltage can spike up to 66 volts and the SI system shuts down.
> Fortress has told me in a roundabout way that they agree this is a real
> problem and they are working on a solution.
>
>
>
> Another problem has reared its head:  If the E-Vaults do not get charged
> fully every 5 to 7 days, the BMS units SOC value becomes radically out of
> calibration.  The E-vault will report a higher SOC than is realistic.  The
> SI system starts the generator based on SOC and if the SOC is reported as
> high the generator don’t start.  Sooner rather than later the battery
> voltage gets too low and the system shuts down.
>
>
>
> I have been tweaking on the settings like days-since-full-charge to
> attempt to get this cycle to stop.  No definitive answer yet.
>
>
>
> Here is the reason I am writing:  Yesterday I could not get the Sunny
> Islands to start.  The battery voltage was 46 which should have been enough
> but for some reason they just would not start.  Because of this I could not
> charge the batteries from generator or from AC coupled solar.  I called SMA
> but they told me they could not advise because of the non-compatible
> batteries.  I asked about the emergency charging procedure in the manual
> but I was told this does not work with lithium batteries.  The process is
> pretty scary anyway so I was not inclined to try.
>
>
>
> SMA told me I may need an external 48 volt charging system.  I have heard
> of this being required in certain scenarios by wrenches.  This would be a
> huge pain in the ass: ordering one, waiting for it, hooking it up, etc.
>
>
>
> Here is what I did:  I initiated the Quick Start Configuration mode and
> told the SI system there was a new battery bank.  I told it the bank was a
> very small VRLA battery.   The SI system accepted the 46 volts, started up
> and allowed a generator charge.  After an hour or so we reprogrammed the
> system for lithium and problem resolved, at least for now.
>
>
>
> Hopefully this trick may help one of you some day.  If it does, it was
> worth my time typing it out.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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> other:
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