Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping

[Daniel Tittmann]

thanks all for the thoughts.  Ended up replacing all breakers and the
controller and the problem has gone away. sent the controller back to
midnite and came back with no issues so we are assuming it was the breaker.


Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com
dan...@greenwired.com
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Chris Mason 
wrote:

> Good tip, and also prompts me to remind that a thermal camera will see a
> lot of problems the eye cannot. We have a fluke thermal camera and I make
> it a practise to survey a customer's electrical room prior to doing a
> proposal, as identifying the overloaded components can help to avoid the
> blame game later. It's the old story, you installed solar so you are
> responsible for everything that went wrong later.
> I did a survey recently for a customer as part of a proposal and with the
> camera could see that the middle phase on their 800A main breaker was very
> hot, although it carried the lowest current relevant to the others. The
> main breaker was clearly faulty and would fail soon. Had we a solar
> installation in place, it would have been construed as being because we
> back fed the breaker.
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Duffield  wrote:
>
>> Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance
>> tripping, we over  analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this
>> erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days
>> apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days.
>>  In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than
>> once.
>> It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression
>> fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat
>> would build over many hours to change the trip curve.
>> We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we
>> employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit.
>> Problem vanished, never to come back.
>> Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting
>> to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience,
>> is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers,
>> we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway.
>>
>> Daniel O. Duffield
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005
>> EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995
>> DPW Solar (Integration-Division)
>> >
>> ___
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>>
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>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Chris Mason
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Solar Design Engineer
> Generac Generators Industrial technician
>
> www.cometsolar.com 
> 264.235.5670
> 869.662.5670
> Skype: netconcepts
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

I might take a clamp on ammeter and check the Classic's battery side 
current.

Then maybe turn ON the generator and see what happens to the current
on that line.

boB



On 11/6/2015 1:49 PM, Daniel Tittmann wrote:

there is a MNSPD 300 AC and a MNSPD 300 DC.  are wired into the system.

this is a new system.  Has been happening since commissioning.
it is possible that the generator is charging during those morning 
hours as there are likely morning loads, coffee pot, but not always as 
the customer just went on vacation and the breaker tripped while he 
was gone.


On my first return visit I re routed the controller battery + from the 
battery + buss bar to the battery + on the battery bank itself as this 
had solved an similar issue in the past.


So for tomorrow's visit I am planning on taking a new breaker and a 
new controller.  Is there anything else that I should replace?


Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com 
dan...@greenwired.com 
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:19 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com 
 > wrote:



Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for
efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current
at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not
adjusted right.  Normally this is just taken
care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching
the voltages and currents carefully.
It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly
correctly.  I am not saying that this is
for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in
battery voltage from the chargers should
be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly
speculating that this could happen
and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else
completely different happening here
though.

If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely
fast at tripping when overloaded.

Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ?

boB


On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they
have a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp
up current slowly.

Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through
the breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose
something else could be wired through the breaker but I’m
guessing Daniel would have looked at that.



<<>>


Curious Larry


On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
 wrote:


...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from
the generator
starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery
terminals…

boB










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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Daniel Tittmann]

there is a MNSPD 300 AC and a MNSPD 300 DC.  are wired into the system.

this is a new system.  Has been happening since commissioning.
it is possible that the generator is charging during those morning hours as
there are likely morning loads, coffee pot, but not always as the customer
just went on vacation and the breaker tripped while he was gone.

On my first return visit I re routed the controller battery + from the
battery + buss bar to the battery + on the battery bank itself as this had
solved an similar issue in the past.

So for tomorrow's visit I am planning on taking a new breaker and a new
controller.  Is there anything else that I should replace?

Daniel Tittmann
CTO
Greenwired
www.greenwired.com
dan...@greenwired.com
707-923-2001 (office)
707-206-5088 (Cell)

On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 4:19 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com 
wrote:

>
> Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies'
> sake), they can convert a large current
> at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted
> right.  Normally this is just taken
> care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the
> voltages and currents carefully.
> It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly
> correctly.  I am not saying that this is
> for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in battery
> voltage from the chargers should
> be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly
> speculating that this could happen
> and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else completely
> different happening here
> though.
>
> If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at
> tripping when overloaded.
>
> Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ?
>
> boB
>
>
> On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>
> After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a
> slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current
> slowly.
>
> Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the
> breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else
> could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have
> looked at that.
>
>
> <<>>
>
> Curious Larry
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
> wrote:
>
>
> ...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from the
> generator
> starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery terminals…
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping

[Chris Mason]

Good tip, and also prompts me to remind that a thermal camera will see a
lot of problems the eye cannot. We have a fluke thermal camera and I make
it a practise to survey a customer's electrical room prior to doing a
proposal, as identifying the overloaded components can help to avoid the
blame game later. It's the old story, you installed solar so you are
responsible for everything that went wrong later.
I did a survey recently for a customer as part of a proposal and with the
camera could see that the middle phase on their 800A main breaker was very
hot, although it carried the lowest current relevant to the others. The
main breaker was clearly faulty and would fail soon. Had we a solar
installation in place, it would have been construed as being because we
back fed the breaker.

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 3:46 PM, Daniel Duffield  wrote:

> Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance
> tripping, we over  analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this
> erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days
> apart, sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days.
>  In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than
> once.
> It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression
> fitting on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat
> would build over many hours to change the trip curve.
> We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we
> employed a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit.
> Problem vanished, never to come back.
> Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting
> to the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience,
> is not good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers,
> we had no excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway.
>
> Daniel O. Duffield
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005
> EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995
> DPW Solar (Integration-Division)
> >
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
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>


-- 
Chris Mason
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Solar Design Engineer
Generac Generators Industrial technician

www.cometsolar.com 
264.235.5670
869.662.5670
Skype: netconcepts
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping

[Daniel Duffield]

Some years ago, we had a similiar problem with a 50 amp breaker nuisance 
tripping, we over  analyzed the problem and still could not prevent this 
erratic issue, sometimes it would work fine for weeks - sometimes days apart, 
sometimes on sunny days, sometimes on cloudy days.
 In the end the answer was simple and so easy it was overlooked more than once. 
It was just a matter of the proper torque, with the copper compression fitting 
on a Sq D QO breaker, just a hair breathe too loose, enough heat would build 
over many hours to change the trip curve. 
We measured, swapped breakers, everything you could think off until we employed 
a torque wrench with a screwdriver bit. 
Problem vanished, never to come back. 
Not saying this is answer, but sometimes tightening a compression fitting to 
the correct "feel", by a journeman electrician with 20 years experience, is not 
good enough. If your crew or organization has torque screwdrivers, we had no 
excuse not to use them, and back then we found out the hardway.

Daniel O. Duffield
NABCEP Certified PV Installer since 2005
EE 98 & ER01, Albuquerque, New Mexico, IEEE member 1995
DPW Solar (Integration-Division)
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Allan,  No, not suggesting to get rid of E-panels or wiring centers.  
They aren't optimum though,
electrically speaking.  My suggestion was more of a technical one 
intended to illustrate a
way of wiring to reduce stress on (most) MPPT charge controllers. I 
should not have said
it was a a good practice "these days"...  That was kind of dumb for me 
to say.


With the battery electrically a few feet away from the battery buses, 
that tie the inverter
and charge controllers together (plus other components), the CCs and 
other energy sources

can be momentarily short-circuited by the inverter (various reasons)...

If that bus was right at the battery terminals, then it's not nearly as 
much stress on
things.  This is because the battery keeps a low impedance voltage point 
between
the two different systemsThis assumes that the batteries are in 
decent health.


You probably won't notice any issues wiring just the way you have been 
doing things
all these years so I would just keep doing what you are doing. With 
proper over current

protection (OCP), stress and reliability won't be an problem.

But, it doesn't hurt to  keep this concept in the back of your mind when 
thinking about

how things work.

boB


On 10/31/2015 6:12 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

boB,
I appreciate your contribution to this discussion, but it brings up a 
couple of issues for me.


- You have suggested that "A good wiring practice these days is 
to...wire the controller's battery terminals close or right at the 
battery terminals." This goes against all modern good practices of 
which I'm aware. We have long accepted as standard a single pair of 
battery cables, with all DC input and distribution handled within the 
power center (I've heard that some people refer to these things as 
'E-Panels'). It's the only way to effectively run all current through 
a shunt on the negative, and through proper overcurrent 
protection/disconnects on the positive.


I must not have understood what you meant, as it sounds like you're 
suggesting abandoning the entire E-Panel approach. What am I missing here?

Thanks, Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 10/29/2015 7:10 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:

On 10/29/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote:

boB,
Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions?
JAY, Peltz power


Hi Jay.  Yes, the OCP you refer to is still there.  This particular 
OCP though is a hardware
fast OCP intended to protect the controller against large load surges 
on the battery
side of the controller...   This usually happens when battery cables 
are long and
the inverter(s) are connected electrically close to the controller, 
thereby drawing
huge amounts of current from the Classic than from the battery when 
the inverter
is turned on, charging its input capacitors or something with huge AC 
loads.


A good wiring practice these days is to, if convenient at least, wire 
the controller's
battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals. Then, when 
an inverter
is either turned on and giving a momentary short circuit to the 
battery lines, that
current will come from the battery rather than the controller's 
electronics.


  Larger cables won't necessarily fix the problem due to battery 
cable inductance.


The 150s and 200s rarely need the OCP circuitry.  The 250 is the one 
the OCP was

really designed for but we put it into all of the controllers.

There is also over current protection going the other way but is not 
a microsecond
timed protection.  Plain old fast or slow ramping up surges like 
we're talking about is easy to

control, normally.

Breaker tripping like this is extremely rare, IF it is from this kind 
of current spikes due to
generator startup.   I would suggest to be safe and bring another 
controller up just in case.


Might be a bad controller but I just don't know without logging or 
observing it happening
with a scope and a current probe.  I've seen some very strange things 
happen.


boB
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "b...@midnitesolar.com" 
 wrote:


Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for 
efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current
at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not 
adjusted right.  Normally this is just taken
care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching 
the voltages and currents carefully.
It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly 
correctly.  I am not saying that this is
for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in battery 
voltage from the chargers should
be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly 
speculating that this could happen
and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else 
completely different happeni

Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
boB,
I appreciate your contribution to this discussion, but it brings up
a couple of issues for me.

- You have suggested that "A good wiring practice these days is
to...wire the controller's
battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals." This
goes against all modern good practices of which I'm aware. We have
long accepted as standard a single pair of battery cables, with all
DC input and distribution handled within the power center (I've
heard that some people refer to these things as 'E-Panels'). It's
the only way to effectively run all current through a shunt on the
negative, and through proper overcurrent protection/disconnects on
the positive.

I must not have understood what you meant, as it sounds like you're
suggesting abandoning the entire E-Panel approach. What am I missing
here?
Thanks, Allan


  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive
  Energy,
  Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


 
  

On 10/29/2015 7:10 PM,
  b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:

On
  10/29/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote:
  
  boB,

Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions?

JAY, Peltz power

  
  
  Hi Jay.  Yes, the OCP you refer to is still there.  This
  particular OCP though is a hardware
  
  fast OCP intended to protect the controller against large load
  surges on the battery
  
  side of the controller...   This usually happens when battery
  cables are long and
  
  the inverter(s) are connected electrically close to the
  controller, thereby drawing
  
  huge amounts of current from the Classic than from the battery
  when the inverter
  
  is turned on, charging its input capacitors or something with huge
  AC loads.
  
  
  A good wiring practice these days is to, if convenient at least,
  wire the controller's
  
  battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals.  Then,
  when an inverter
  
  is either turned on and giving a momentary short circuit to the
  battery lines, that
  
  current will come from the battery rather than the controller's
  electronics.
  
  
    Larger cables won't necessarily fix the problem due to battery
  cable inductance.
  
  
  The 150s and 200s rarely need the OCP circuitry.  The 250 is the
  one the OCP was
  
  really designed for but we put it into all of the controllers.
  
  
  There is also over current protection going the other way but is
  not a microsecond
  
  timed protection.  Plain old fast or slow ramping up surges like
  we're talking about is easy to
  
  control, normally.
  
  
  Breaker tripping like this is extremely rare, IF it is from this
  kind of current spikes due to
  
  generator startup.   I would suggest to be safe and bring another
  controller up just in case.
  
  
  Might be a bad controller but I just don't know without logging or
  observing it happening
  
  with a scope and a current probe.  I've seen some very strange
  things happen.
  
  
  boB
  
  Sent from my iPhone
  
On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM,
  "b...@midnitesolar.com"  wrote:
  
  
  Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for
  efficiencies' sake), they can convert a large current
  
  at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not
  adjusted right.  Normally this is just taken
  
  care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller
  watching the voltages and currents carefully.
  
  It is technically possible though for things to not work
  exactly correctly.  I am not saying that this is
  
  for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in
  battery voltage from the chargers should
  
  be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am
  wildly speculating that this could happen
  
  and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else
  completely different happening here
  
  though.
  
  
  If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be
  extremely fast at tripping when overloaded.
  
  
  Also, what, if any SPD

Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

On 10/29/2015 5:02 PM, Jay wrote:

boB,

Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions?

JAY
Peltz power



Hi Jay.  Yes, the OCP you refer to is still there.  This particular OCP 
though is a hardware
fast OCP intended to protect the controller against large load surges on 
the battery
side of the controller...   This usually happens when battery cables are 
long and
the inverter(s) are connected electrically close to the controller, 
thereby drawing
huge amounts of current from the Classic than from the battery when the 
inverter

is turned on, charging its input capacitors or something with huge AC loads.

A good wiring practice these days is to, if convenient at least, wire 
the controller's
battery terminals close or right at the battery terminals.  Then, when 
an inverter
is either turned on and giving a momentary short circuit to the battery 
lines, that

current will come from the battery rather than the controller's electronics.

  Larger cables won't necessarily fix the problem due to battery cable 
inductance.


The 150s and 200s rarely need the OCP circuitry.  The 250 is the one the 
OCP was

really designed for but we put it into all of the controllers.

There is also over current protection going the other way but is not a 
microsecond
timed protection.  Plain old fast or slow ramping up surges like we're 
talking about is easy to

control, normally.

Breaker tripping like this is extremely rare, IF it is from this kind of 
current spikes due to
generator startup.   I would suggest to be safe and bring another 
controller up just in case.


Might be a bad controller but I just don't know without logging or 
observing it happening
with a scope and a current probe.  I've seen some very strange things 
happen.


boB





Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "b...@midnitesolar.com"  
wrote:


Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' sake), 
they can convert a large current
at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted right.  
Normally this is just taken
care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the voltages 
and currents carefully.
It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly correctly.  I 
am not saying that this is
for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in battery voltage 
from the chargers should
be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly speculating 
that this could happen
and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else completely 
different happening here
though.

If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at 
tripping when overloaded.

Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ?

boB



On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a slight 
delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly.

Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker 
unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be 
wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Jay]

boB,

Is the OCP still being used and does it work in both directions?

JAY
Peltz power

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 29, 2015, at 4:19 PM, "b...@midnitesolar.com"  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' sake), 
> they can convert a large current
> at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted 
> right.  Normally this is just taken
> care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the voltages 
> and currents carefully.
> It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly correctly.  
> I am not saying that this is
> for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in battery voltage 
> from the chargers should
> be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly 
> speculating that this could happen
> and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else completely 
> different happening here
> though.
> 
> If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at 
> tripping when overloaded.
> 
> Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ?
> 
> boB
> 
> 
>> On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
>> After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a 
>> slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly. 
>> 
>> Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker 
>> unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be 
>> wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that.
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

Larry, because these MPPT CC's are bi-directional (for efficiencies' 
sake), they can convert a large current
at the battery side to a smaller current at the PV side if not adjusted 
right.  Normally this is just taken
care of and reduced to a bare minimum by the controller watching the 
voltages and currents carefully.
It is technically possible though for things to not work exactly 
correctly.  I am not saying that this is
for sure happening, but it is possible.   The ramping up in battery 
voltage from the chargers should
be plenty slow enough for this not to be a problem but I am wildly 
speculating that this could happen
and cannot rule it out.  There may of course be something else 
completely different happening here

though.

If CBI breakers are being used, these are known to be extremely fast at 
tripping when overloaded.


Also, what, if any SPDs are connected to the system ?

boB


On 10/29/2015 2:45 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:
After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have 
a slight delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current 
slowly.


Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the 
breaker unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something 
else could be wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would 
have looked at that.




<<>>


Curious Larry


On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com 
 wrote:



...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from the 
generator

starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery terminals…

boB





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

After the Magnum Inverter/charger samples incoming AC power, they have a slight 
delay before starting the charger. Then, they ramp up current slowly. 

Even so, how will any current from any other source pass through the breaker 
unless the Classic is presenting a load? I suppose something else could be 
wired through the breaker but I’m guessing Daniel would have looked at that.

Curious Larry


On Oct 29, 2015, at 1:06 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


...if it turns out to be, say, a surge in battery voltage from the generator
starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery terminals…

boB





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

This is probably not the breaker at fault. Could be, but just doesn't 
seem like the only thing

I would suspect.

Do you know if the generator might be turning on and charging the 
battery through the
inverters at this time in the morning ?  Since you were talking about 
the AGS it makes

me wonder...  That would be a good clue.

There is a possibility that a simple (you know how "simple" goes 
sometimes !) adjustment that
can be done on the Classic if it turns out to be, say, a surge in 
battery voltage from the generator
starting up and causing a reverse current through the battery 
terminals...  The inherent circuit design of
higher efficiency converters can cause this.  Send me / us an email if 
you would like to try that.

This is done through a special communications mode using the MNGP display.

Also, is this a new system or has it been running for a while and just 
now seeing this problem ?


boB





On 10/29/2015 11:13 AM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:


You don't want to drive for hours and hours to do something that might 
not fix the problem.


Without knowing exactly what is happening, I would bring a spare 
Classic and also a new breaker

which I think I heard we were sending you

If the Classic is plugged into the internet, there is the possibility 
of monitoring it to see what is
going on just before the breaker trips.   I would just bring another 
one in this case if you have one...
Otherwise, call our support and see if there is something they can do 
to help in this regard.


Strange things do happen in this industry !  Troubleshooting isn't so 
bad as long as you don't have
drive or take a helicopter a long ways just to find that the unit is 
turned off.


boB



On 10/29/2015 9:55 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Daniel,

Very strange problem.

While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt 
that it’s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage in 
the morning, but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher?


At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high 
voltage is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not 
voltage.


My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller. 
Larry’s “wild guess” might be on the mark. Do you have another 
Classic to swap out with?


Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of 
*Daniel Tittmann

*Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker 
tripping?


An update on this issue:

On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS 
settings higher volt start and % state of charge start.  The report 
from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue.  So now I am 
just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping.


The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and 
once reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What 
could cause this?


You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker 
that will be the first on the list when I am back on site.  I hope 
that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the 
shop with no cell or internet coverage.


Thanks for your input.

Cheers-

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com 

dan...@greenwired.com 

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote:


Hi Daniel,

Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set 
points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery 
voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current 
could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker 
is tripping?


I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator 
sooner.  Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad 
battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued 
properly onto that breaker.


How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the 
panels?


On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" > wrote:


Hi Daniel

Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore?

What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits 
faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are 
dumping into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in 
the AM, guessing with enough light to get the CC alive


If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which 
should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad 
battery or too big a load or both.


But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is 
causing any issues with the AGS/inverter


You could always try another CC and see what happens

Jay

Peltz power

Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

You don't want to drive for hours and hours to do something that might 
not fix the problem.


Without knowing exactly what is happening, I would bring a spare Classic 
and also a new breaker

which I think I heard we were sending you

If the Classic is plugged into the internet, there is the possibility of 
monitoring it to see what is
going on just before the breaker trips.   I would just bring another one 
in this case if you have one...
Otherwise, call our support and see if there is something they can do to 
help in this regard.


Strange things do happen in this industry !  Troubleshooting isn't so 
bad as long as you don't have
drive or take a helicopter a long ways just to find that the unit is 
turned off.


boB



On 10/29/2015 9:55 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:


Daniel,

Very strange problem.

While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt 
that it’s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage in the 
morning, but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher?


At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high 
voltage is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not 
voltage.


My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller. 
Larry’s “wild guess” might be on the mark. Do you have another Classic 
to swap out with?


Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] *On Behalf Of 
*Daniel Tittmann

*Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker 
tripping?


An update on this issue:

On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS 
settings higher volt start and % state of charge start.  The report 
from the client is that this has fixed the AGS issue.  So now I am 
just dealing with the 100 amp breaker tripping.


The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once 
reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could 
cause this?


You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker 
that will be the first on the list when I am back on site.  I hope 
that is the only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the 
shop with no cell or internet coverage.


Thanks for your input.

Cheers-

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com 

dan...@greenwired.com 

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)

On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis > wrote:


Hi Daniel,

Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set 
points that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery 
voltage is collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current 
could be high. Do you know specifically what time of day the breaker 
is tripping?


I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator 
sooner.  Is there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad 
battery or large load)? Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued 
properly onto that breaker.


How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the 
panels?


On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay" > wrote:


Hi Daniel

Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore?

What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits 
faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping 
into the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, 
guessing with enough light to get the CC alive


If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which 
should give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad 
battery or too big a load or both.


But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is 
causing any issues with the AGS/inverter


You could always try another CC and see what happens

Jay

Peltz power


On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann > wrote:


Hive mind-

hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue.

System:

Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters.

Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail)
and NMEPV100

18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered)

Issue:

every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping.  from what
I can gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into
error. Re set the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of
the day.

Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all
other than at commissioning and recent testing.

Of course on site i cant get it to fail.

Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the
system under load... voltage drops and generator turned on
with no pv-> Batt breaker issue.

last visi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp output breaker tripping?????

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Daniel,



Very strange problem.



While I agree that you should try replacing the 100A breaker, I doubt that
it’s the problem. Why would a breaker trip at low amperage in the morning,
but not trip at noon when the amperage is higher?



At early morning turn-on, the voltage might be too high, but high voltage
is not going to trip a breaker. Current trips a breaker, not voltage.



My guess is that something is going on inside the Classic controller.
Larry’s “wild guess” might be on the mark. Do you have another Classic to
swap out with?



Brian Teitelbaum

AEE Solar



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Daniel Tittmann
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 28, 2015 3:05 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Classic 150 100 amp utput breaker tripping?



An update on this issue:

On my initial visit to diagnose this problem I changed the AGS settings
higher volt start and % state of charge start.  The report from the client
is that this has fixed the AGS issue.  So now I am just dealing with the
100 amp breaker tripping.



The trip time from the client is when the sun hits the panels and once
reset for the day it will not trip until the next morning. What could cause
this?



You are all right that the first step it changing out that breaker that
will be the first on the list when I am back on site.  I hope that is the
only issue because as usual this system is 2 Hrs from the shop with no cell
or internet coverage.

Thanks for your input.

Cheers-

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com

dan...@greenwired.com

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)



On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

Hi Daniel,

Do you know what the error is on the AGS? What are the start set points
that you have? Jay could be on to something if the battery voltage is
collapsing before the generator can start, the cc current could be high. Do
you know specifically what time of day the breaker is tripping?

I'd check the Midnite logs and consider starting the generator sooner.  Is
there large voltage swings (this could indicate bad battery or large load)?
Make sure the wire is cleaned and torqued properly onto that breaker.

How big is the battery bank and what is the tilt and azimuth of the panels?

On Oct 26, 2015 11:05 PM, "Jay"  wrote:

Hi Daniel



Is this a new classic with OCP? Or maybe they don't have it anymore?



What it sure sounds like like is a big load on the batteries, it hits
faster than the AGS can start, and the caps in the classic are dumping into
the super low battery voltage. If this is happening in the AM, guessing
with enough light to get the CC alive



If there is a trimetric, you can measure the lowest voltage which should
give you some good info. Super low volts might mean a bad battery or too
big a load or both.



But I don't believe it's the other way around that the classic is causing
any issues with the AGS/inverter



You could always try another CC and see what happens



Jay



Peltz power






























On Oct 26, 2015, at 6:30 PM, Daniel Tittmann  wrote:

Hive mind-

hoping you all can help me solve this mystery issue.



System:

Magnum double panel with Parallel stacked 2x4448 pae inverters.

Classic 150 charge controller wired with an NMEPV 50 (din rail) and
NMEPV100

18 - 245 watt solar modules (6x3). (not over powered)



Issue:

every morning the 100 amp din rail breaker is tripping.  from what I can
gather simultaneously the magnum RTR shows the AGS go into error.  Re set
the breaker and the solar works fine for the rest of the day.



Not 100% sure the AGS has worked (under normal operation) at all other than
at commissioning and recent testing.



Of course on site i cant get it to fail.



Tested the AGS by setting start voltage to 48.2 vdc and put the system
under load... voltage drops and generator turned on with no pv-> Batt
breaker issue.



last visit, chasing one theory, I re routed the battery + from the mnpv100
directly to the battery  + terminal as opposed to the battery + bus bar in
the inverter panel still didn't solve the problem.



I cant figure out if it the classic causing the issue or if it is the
inverters and the AGS.



Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks

Daniel


Daniel Tittmann

CTO

Greenwired

www.greenwired.com

dan...@greenwired.com

707-923-2001 (office)

707-206-5088 (Cell)

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