Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
Sorry Jay... Missed your post. >From what I understand we changed this between 75 and 76 because of popping in and out of sell. Ignoring the Temp compensation for Selling allows the inverter to be a bit more predictable. Steve Higgins. Sr Application Engineer. Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. Outback Power Systems. 19009 62nd Ave Ne Arlington Wa 98223 360-618-4313 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 3:17 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems HI Steve, Is there a logic to the change between < 75 and 76> regarding loss of temp comp for Sell RE? thanks, jay peltz power On Apr 5, 2010, at 2:11 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: Sell RE and Refloat are not Temp Compensated, Absorb, Float Voltages and EQ are temp Compensated. Older Grid tie inverters using firmware revision 75 utilized temperature compensated voltage with the Sell RE, but new versions such as 76 and above don't. "2)What is the difference between refloat and rebulk?" For the purpose of the GT units, it's really the same. Just when Refloat, is triggered it's basically going into a Re-bulk mode. Steve Higgins. Sr Application Engineer. Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. Outback Power Systems. 19009 62nd Ave Ne Arlington Wa 98223 360-618-4313 MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
HI Steve, Is there a logic to the change between < 75 and 76> regarding loss of temp comp for Sell RE? thanks, jay peltz power On Apr 5, 2010, at 2:11 PM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Sell RE and Refloat are not Temp Compensated, > Absorb, Float Voltages and EQ are temp Compensated. > > Older Grid tie inverters using firmware revision 75 utilized temperature > compensated voltage with the Sell RE, but new versions such as 76 and above > don’t. > > “2)What is the difference between refloat and rebulk?” > > For the purpose of the GT units, it’s really the same. Just when Refloat, is > triggered it’s basically going into a Re-bulk mode. > > Steve Higgins. > Sr Application Engineer. > Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. > Outback Power Systems. > 19009 62nd Ave Ne > Arlington Wa 98223 > 360-618-4313 > > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
Sell RE and Refloat are not Temp Compensated, Absorb, Float Voltages and EQ are temp Compensated. Older Grid tie inverters using firmware revision 75 utilized temperature compensated voltage with the Sell RE, but new versions such as 76 and above don't. "2)What is the difference between refloat and rebulk?" For the purpose of the GT units, it's really the same. Just when Refloat, is triggered it's basically going into a Re-bulk mode. Steve Higgins. Sr Application Engineer. Sub-Saharan Africa Business Dev Mgr. Outback Power Systems. 19009 62nd Ave Ne Arlington Wa 98223 360-618-4313 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Ray Walters Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 12:13 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems Thanks very much Steve; I still have 2 questions: does the temp sensor control all voltage set points or just absorption and float voltage? 2) I'm still a little confused about the absorption time, and refloat, rebulk features. for instance, what is the difference between refloat and rebulk? Apparently his system was getting stuck in a mode where it couldn't quite satisfy the absorption time, and would cycle back and forth into a refloat mode, etc. Is it possible that the temp sensor was causing the sell voltage setting to drop below the refloat voltage? or that, as the temp of the battery rose through the day, the set points kept changing and never quite get met? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Apr 5, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: Here is a bit more on how RE-BULK and RE-FLOAT interact with the ABSORB timer. All battery voltages are default and are given as 12VDC nominal, multiply by 2 for 24V and 4 for 48V systems. All of the following is true for grid-tie GV or GT FXs only. After the battery voltage reaches the Absorption set point, the absorption timer starts counting down and maintains absorption voltage for the absorption time. Watching the absorption time is the indication of how long the FX will be in the absorption mode. After the absorption mode is finished, the next stage is Sell RE. Sell RE is a target that the FX cannot charge too, but can export renewable energy if the source is powerful enough. Towards the end of the day, typical renewable energy, like solar, is not available so the FX cannot export any more power. In this event the FX will go silent/passthru, which means it stops any power conversion. The battery usually still has small DC loads, so battery voltage may slowly fall during the night. If the battery voltage falls below the RE-FLOAT setpoint (12.5 volts) then the FX will transition to the FLOAT stage and charge the battery to the FLOAT target (13.6 volts) for the FLOAT time (1 hour). After the FLOAT timer has expired, the FX returns to the SellRE stage and/or silent/passthru. If the battery falls past the REFLOAT setpoint, below 12.4 volts (which we call RE-BULK), the FX will change to the BULK stage and the absorption time remaining will start counting up. The absorption time remaining will count up in real time as long as the battery voltage is 12.4 volts or below. The absorption time remaining counts in double time if the battery voltage is less than 12.0 volts and counts in quadruple time if battery voltage is less than 11.6 volts. In other words the lower the battery voltage goes the more time the system will have to remain in the absorption stage up to the absorption time setpoint. MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
Thanks very much Steve; I still have 2 questions: does the temp sensor control all voltage set points or just absorption and float voltage? 2) I'm still a little confused about the absorption time, and refloat, rebulk features. for instance, what is the difference between refloat and rebulk? Apparently his system was getting stuck in a mode where it couldn't quite satisfy the absorption time, and would cycle back and forth into a refloat mode, etc. Is it possible that the temp sensor was causing the sell voltage setting to drop below the refloat voltage? or that, as the temp of the battery rose through the day, the set points kept changing and never quite get met? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Apr 5, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Steve Higgins wrote: > Here is a bit more on how RE-BULK and RE-FLOAT interact with the ABSORB > timer. All battery voltages are default and are given as 12VDC nominal, > multiply by 2 for 24V and 4 for 48V systems. All of the following is true for > grid-tie GV or GT FXs only. > > > After the battery voltage reaches the Absorption set point, the absorption > timer starts counting down and maintains absorption voltage for the > absorption time. Watching the absorption time is the indication of how long > the FX will be in the absorption mode. > > After the absorption mode is finished, the next stage is Sell RE. Sell RE is > a target that the FX cannot charge too, but can export renewable energy if > the source is powerful enough. Towards the end of the day, typical renewable > energy, like solar, is not available so the FX cannot export any more power. > In this event the FX will go silent/passthru, which means it stops any power > conversion. > > The battery usually still has small DC loads, so battery voltage may slowly > fall during the night. If the battery voltage falls below the RE-FLOAT > setpoint (12.5 volts) then the FX will transition to the FLOAT stage and > charge the battery to the FLOAT target (13.6 volts) for the FLOAT time (1 > hour). After the FLOAT timer has expired, the FX returns to the SellRE stage > and/or silent/passthru. > > If the battery falls past the REFLOAT setpoint, below 12.4 volts (which we > call RE-BULK), the FX will change to the BULK stage and the absorption time > remaining will start counting up. The absorption time remaining will count up > in real time as long as the battery voltage is 12.4 volts or below. The > absorption time remaining counts in double time if the battery voltage is > less than 12.0 volts and counts in quadruple time if battery voltage is less > than 11.6 volts. In other words the lower the battery voltage goes the more > time the system will have to remain in the absorption stage up to the > absorption time setpoint. > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
Here is a bit more on how RE-BULK and RE-FLOAT interact with the ABSORB timer. All battery voltages are default and are given as 12VDC nominal, multiply by 2 for 24V and 4 for 48V systems. All of the following is true for grid-tie GV or GT FXs only. Definitions: BULK - Constant high current increasing battery voltage to reach absorption stage. Absorption (ABSORB) - Constant high battery voltage (target 14.4 volts), tapering current as battery capacity is filled. FX can charge or sell to this voltage target. FLOAT - Charging cycle is complete from absorption stage, constant low voltage (default 13.6 volts) trickle charge to maintain full battery. FX can charge or sell to this voltage target. SellRE - Charging cycle also completed, constant low voltage (target 13.0 volts) target similar to Float. Sell RE is typically set lower than float in order to minimize trickle charge to battery and force more renewable energy to be exported from the FX inverter. FX can only sell(not charge) to this voltage target. Equalize (EQ) - High voltage (target >15 volts) over charge of the batteries meant to bubble electrolyte which stirs it up to maintain equal concentration throughout the battery, and to create equal cell voltages throughout the complete battery string. FX can charge or sell to this voltage target. Pass thru - the FX is not converting any power and is silent All the stages above have target DC voltages associated with them. For instance, if the FX is in Float mode, the target voltage for the battery is 13.6 volts. While grid is available the FX can draw current from grid to maintain 13.6 volts. If a DC renewable energy source is supplying enough power to bring the batteries above the 13.6 volt target, the FX can send current to AC loads or back out the grid input to keep the battery at 13.6 volts. The FX is a bi-directional power conversion device that will do everything possible to maintain 13.6 volts. Without grid input, the FX will not be able to actively maintain the battery voltage at the current target, although the FX will still go through the same stages, keeping track of battery target and timers. If the DC sources are less then the AC load demands, the battery voltage will fall. This can trigger a REFLOAT or REBULK dependent on how low the battery voltage falls. Conversely, if the DC sources exceed the AC load demands, the FX cannot maintain the battery voltage at any specific target. Battery voltage will rise to what ever voltage the DC source controller allows. Typical FX charger behavior: On initial DC power up of all grid-tie FX inverters, a 1 hour stock absorption exists. Once AC power has been accepted by the FX, the BULK cycle begins. After the battery voltage reaches the Absorption set point, the absorption timer starts counting down and maintains absorption voltage for the absorption time. Watching the absorption time is the indication of how long the FX will be in the absorption mode. After the absorption mode is finished, the next stage is Sell RE. Sell RE is a target that the FX cannot charge too, but can export renewable energy if the source is powerful enough. Towards the end of the day, typical renewable energy, like solar, is not available so the FX cannot export any more power. In this event the FX will go silent/passthru, which means it stops any power conversion. The battery usually still has small DC loads, so battery voltage may slowly fall during the night. If the battery voltage falls below the RE-FLOAT setpoint (12.5 volts) then the FX will transition to the FLOAT stage and charge the battery to the FLOAT target (13.6 volts) for the FLOAT time (1 hour). After the FLOAT timer has expired, the FX returns to the SellRE stage and/or silent/passthru. If the battery falls past the REFLOAT setpoint, below 12.4 volts (which we call RE-BULK), the FX will change to the BULK stage and the absorption time remaining will start counting up. The absorption time remaining will count up in real time as long as the battery voltage is 12.4 volts or below. The absorption time remaining counts in double time if the battery voltage is less than 12.0 volts and counts in quadruple time if battery voltage is less than 11.6 volts. In other words the lower the battery voltage goes the more time the system will have to remain in the absorption stage up to the absorption time setpoint. When charging sources (grid or renewable energy) are available again then the FX can satisfy the absorption stage and continue on to the SellRE stage again. Although the stages may seem confusing, they are all dependent on battery voltage and what target the FX has. The status/meters 1st screen top line always tells you what the FX is doing and what the target is. The first word is what the FX is actually doing (PASSTHRU, CHARGE, SELL) and the second word is the target (BULK, FLOAT, SELLRE, and EQ) where the FX wants to be. Other sources/loads in you system can achieve these targets besides
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
Boy I appreciate the many replies on this. To answer your curiosity,Kirpal, the customer lived off grid originally, brought in the grid after 5 years, but only used it as backup with his previous SW system. Now he likes to play with it, as he's also an EE. (He likes to cycle the batteries occasionally and confirm backup capability.) We also kept the original SW system on the wall for charging with a generator, and as a 3rd (4th?) backup. The SW system is completely shut down normally, though. (technically, he could sell generator power back to the grid, but it would just be a horrible waste of money) R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Mar 30, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote: > I believe your client is right that the Outback Inverters are an inverter or > a charger but not both at the same time.Also..just curious? why are > they using their batteries to power loads if the grid is present? It seems > they would do this occasionally to exercise the batteries if they haven't > been used in a while but if they are simply maintained as full then they > should start the morning ready to sell back power to the grid unless there > has been a power outage during the night and the batteries need charged. > > -- > Sunny Regards, > Kirpal Khalsa > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer > Renewable Energy Systems > www.oregonsolarworks.com > 541-218-0201 m > 541-592-3958 o > > > On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 2:11 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: > HI all; > > I'm forwarding my very informed customer's comments. AC output voltage > appears to not be the issue. > Does anybody have a particularly good contact at Outback? > It should not be going into charge mode everyday. Perhaps the large battery > bank is throwing things off? > > R. Walters > r...@solarray.com > Solar Engineer > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Roger L. Johnson" >> Date: March 30, 2010 2:06:42 PM MDT >> To: Ray Walters >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems >> >> Ray – I have been selling solidly at approx. 2 kW since about 1100 hours >> (MDT) this morning. The output voltage (AC) is 124 VAC and steady with an >> output current to KCE of 7 aac. The house load is ranging between 200-800 >> watts. I expect the system will now continue to sell throughout the >> remainder of the day. >> >> Today’s Sequence: I ran the house load off of the batteries throughout the >> night (AC in DROP mode). Prior to the system beginning its morning wakeup >> sequence, the battery voltage was 24.8. I then put the system on the grid >> (AC in USE mode). As expected, the system came up, shut down the inverters >> and quickly went into CHARGING mode. I then manually killed the BULK >> charging cycle and the system went into PASS THRU mode. Then I monitored the >> connected (new array) CCs and watched while both new and old arrays >> recharged the batteries. As the battery voltage passed through 26 VDC the >> system remained in PASS THRU mode. I then watched as the batteries passed >> through 27.2 VDC (Float Level threshold) and the system still remained in >> PASS THRU mode. As the battery voltage went above the FLOAT threshold for >> some time, the connected CCs indicated GT MODE and soon after that the >> system began selling. >> >> What seems clear to me at this time: >> >> Each morning, no matter what, the system will initiate a charging cycle. It >> appears to be the case that as long as the system is in the CHARGING mode, >> it cannot invert for either load use or for selling back. It also appears to >> be the case that there are a number of system parameters which need to meet >> a specific criteria (not provided in the manuals) for the CHARGING mode to >> be terminated. If these conditions are not met, the system will go through >> an entire charging cycle(many hours) and may never complete the criteria >> before the end of the day even though the sun has come out (or the arrays >> clear of snow). This seems to be why, following snow days, the system often >> never gets out of the CHARGING mode. Remember that in the ABSORB and FLOAT >> modes, the CCs restrict the power coming off the arrays. Plus, these modes >> require “countups” (1 hour each) to complete before terminating the CHARGING >> mode. Note the statement made in the MATE manual on page 62, second >> paragraph from the bottom. It speaks of “charge parameters met mode”. So it >> is clear that this is not just a case of the battery voltage exceeding 26 >> VDC. There is also another reference to running in grid-tie mode which >> indicates that the CCs FLOAT threshold voltage should be set 0.5 volts >> higher than the FLOAT threshold of the FX. On this system, they are both set >> to the same value, 27.2 VDC. >> >> I suspect that your earlier systems were not as “interconnected” as this >> system and did not have as large a battery bank. Let’s continue the >> investigation. What would be very helpful
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Outback Grid Problems
I believe your client is right that the Outback Inverters are an inverter * or* a charger but not both at the same time.Also..just curious? why are they using their batteries to power loads if the grid is present? It seems they would do this occasionally to exercise the batteries if they haven't been used in a while but if they are simply maintained as full then they should start the morning ready to sell back power to the grid unless there has been a power outage during the night and the batteries need charged. -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 2:11 PM, R Ray Walters wrote: > HI all; > > I'm forwarding my very informed customer's comments. AC output voltage > appears to not be the issue. > Does anybody have a particularly good contact at Outback? > It should not be going into charge mode everyday. Perhaps the large battery > bank is throwing things off? > > R. Walters > r...@solarray.com > Solar Engineer > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *"Roger L. Johnson" > *Date: *March 30, 2010 2:06:42 PM MDT > *To: *Ray Walters > *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Grid Problems* > > Ray – I have been selling solidly at approx. 2 kW since about 1100 hours > (MDT) this morning. The output voltage (AC) is 124 VAC and steady with an > output current to KCE of 7 aac. The house load is ranging between 200-800 > watts. I expect the system will now continue to sell throughout the > remainder of the day. > > Today’s Sequence: I ran the house load off of the batteries throughout the > night (AC in DROP mode). Prior to the system beginning its morning wakeup > sequence, the battery voltage was 24.8. I then put the system on the grid > (AC in USE mode). As expected, the system came up, shut down the inverters > and quickly went into CHARGING mode. I then manually killed the BULK > charging cycle and the system went into PASS THRU mode. Then I monitored the > connected (new array) CCs and watched while both new and old arrays > recharged the batteries. As the battery voltage passed through 26 VDC the > system remained in PASS THRU mode. I then watched as the batteries passed > through 27.2 VDC (Float Level threshold) and the system still remained in > PASS THRU mode. As the battery voltage went above the FLOAT threshold for > some time, the connected CCs indicated GT MODE and soon after that the > system began selling. > > What seems clear to me at this time: > > Each morning, no matter what, the system will initiate a charging cycle. It > appears to be the case that as long as the system is in the CHARGING mode, > it cannot invert for either load use or for selling back. It also appears to > be the case that there are a number of system parameters which need to meet > a specific criteria (not provided in the manuals) for the CHARGING mode to > be terminated. If these conditions are not met, the system will go through > an entire charging cycle(many hours) and may never complete the criteria > before the end of the day even though the sun has come out (or the arrays > clear of snow). This seems to be why, following snow days, the system often > never gets out of the CHARGING mode. Remember that in the ABSORB and FLOAT > modes, the CCs restrict the power coming off the arrays. Plus, these modes > require “countups” (1 hour each) to complete before terminating the CHARGING > mode. Note the statement made in the MATE manual on page 62, second > paragraph from the bottom. It speaks of “charge parameters met mode”. So it > is clear that this is not just a case of the battery voltage exceeding 26 > VDC. There is also another reference to running in grid-tie mode which > indicates that the CCs FLOAT threshold voltage should be set 0.5 volts > higher than the FLOAT threshold of the FX. On this system, they are both set > to the same value, 27.2 VDC. > > I suspect that your earlier systems were not as “interconnected” as this > system and did not have as large a battery bank. Let’s continue the > investigation. What would be very helpful is if you could extract two items > from Outback, one, being the “charge parameters” which determine the sell > criteria, and two, a detailed explanation of STOP SELL codes. There is a > cryptic list of STOP SELL reasons on the bottom of page 47 of the MATE > manual. Most of these do not make sense, for example, I cannot tell what it > means to say “R60 off” or “save command”. Another question, if a STOP SELL > is executed by the MATE, do you have to wait until the next midnight for > this to be cleared? In other words, can the system lock itself out of SELL > mode for the rest of the day? > > RLJ > Taos home: 575-776-3960 > > > > > on 3/30/10 12:58 PM, Ray Walters at r...@solarray.com wrote: > > I think we need to revisit Kit Carson being the problem. It may be as > simple as having them lower the transformer voltage slightly. > It
