Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Phil Undercuffler]

OutBack's Radian does AC input support, which can be applied to either a
generator or even to grid.

Phil


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 5:19 PM, John Berdner wrote:

>  SMA Sunny Island also does this but also discharges battery in parallel
> with the generator to create a “virtual generator” that is larger than the
> actual generator.
>
> Just set the max generator current and it does the rest.
>
> ** **
>
> Best Regards,
>
> ** **
>
> John Berdner
>
> General Manager, North America
>
> ** **
>
> [image: SmallBannerPictEngnew]
>
> ** **
>
> SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
>
> 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  *(*Please note of our new
> address.)*
> T: 510.498.3200, X 747
>
> M: 530.277.4894 
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Allan Sindelar
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:14 PM
> *To:* William Miller
> *Cc:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility
> question
>
> ** **
>
> William,
> Yes, that's my understanding. Outback acknowledged this to me years ago.
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder and Chief Technology Officer
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> www.positiveenergysolar.com 
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, William Miller wrote:
>
> Allan:
>
> Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with
> Generator Support, and the Outback inverters are not?
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
>
> 
>
> This is going back several years...
>
> The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of the SW
> series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In many cases
> (and especially with these small generators) we want to set the max amps in
> as high as possible to minimize charging time and maximize C/rate. Yet a
> surge load can momentarily exceed the max amps setting.
>
> I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite sensitive
> AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load (such as a
> refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the generator's
> capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In contrast,
> Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the generator,
> but also not likely to trip the output breaker.
>
> This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your question.
> Allan
>
> ** **
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only
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> disclosure or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[John Berdner]

SMA Sunny Island also does this but also discharges battery in parallel with 
the generator to create a "virtual generator" that is larger than the actual 
generator.
Just set the max generator current and it does the rest.

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

[cid:image001.jpg@01CDFFD7.2FD21100]

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 2:14 PM
To: William Miller
Cc: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

William,
Yes, that's my understanding. Outback acknowledged this to me years ago.
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com<mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com<http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>


On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, William Miller wrote:
Allan:

Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with Generator 
Support, and the Outback inverters are not?

William Miller



At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:

This is going back several years...

The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of the SW 
series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In many cases (and 
especially with these small generators) we want to set the max amps in as high 
as possible to minimize charging time and maximize C/rate. Yet a surge load can 
momentarily exceed the max amps setting.

I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite sensitive AC 
output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load (such as a 
refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the generator's 
capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In contrast, Yamaha's 
EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the generator, but also not 
likely to trip the output breaker.

This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your question.
Allan

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for 
the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may 
contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure 
or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not 
the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible 
for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Ray Walters]

Funny that the good old SW inverters still have features that new 
inverters haven't topped:  the (as mentioned) AC current input setting, 
still the best gen autostart menu, dual AC inputs, and excellent 
reliability.  I'm currently working on a project with an SW4024 that is 
17 years old, and still working fine.  We're adding batteries, modules, 
MPPT controllers, etc. but the inverter is not on the upgrade list right 
now.
The SW plus however does not regulate AC input current as well, and I've 
had the same issues with overloading small generators as with the 
Outbacks.  Magnums also are hard to set, and I finally had to give up 
using small (under 4 kw) generators with any of the newer larger 
inverters.  Small genies seem to only work well with old SWs, or small 
inverters with low charger draw.
Using a separate Iota charger (as some pointed out) is definitely an 
option, but last time I used one, they were not UL listed or set up to 
wire in a code compliant manor.


Ray Walters

On 1/31/2013 3:13 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

William,
Yes, that's my understanding. Outback acknowledged this to me years ago.
Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ 

*
*


On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, William Miller wrote:

Allan:

Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with 
Generator Support, and the Outback inverters are not?


William Miller



At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:

This is going back several years...

The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of 
the SW series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In 
many cases (and especially with these small generators) we want to 
set the max amps in as high as possible to minimize charging time 
and maximize C/rate. Yet a surge load can momentarily exceed the max 
amps setting.


I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite 
sensitive AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge 
load (such as a refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set 
close to the generator's capacity. This incident was specific to a 
Honda 3000i. In contrast, Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when 
overloaded - not good for the generator, but also not likely to trip 
the output breaker.


This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your 
question.

Allan




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
William,
  Yes, that's my understanding. Outback acknowledged this to me
  years ago.
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/29/2013 9:28 PM, William Miller wrote:


  Allan:
  
  Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with
  Generator Support, and the Outback inverters are not?
  
  William Miller
  
  
  
  At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:
  This is going back
several
years...

The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation
of the SW
series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In
many cases
(and especially with these small generators) we want to set the
max amps
in as high as possible to minimize charging time and maximize
C/rate. Yet
a surge load can momentarily exceed the max amps setting. 

I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite
sensitive
AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load
(such as a
refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the
generator's
capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In
contrast,
Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the
generator,
but also not likely to trip the output breaker.

This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits
your
question.
Allan
  


  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[William Miller]

Allan:

Could it be that the SW systems are protecting the generator with Generator 
Support, and the Outback inverters are not?


William Miller



At 07:18 PM 1/29/2013, you wrote:

This is going back several years...

The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of the SW 
series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion. In many cases 
(and especially with these small generators) we want to set the max amps 
in as high as possible to minimize charging time and maximize C/rate. Yet 
a surge load can momentarily exceed the max amps setting.


I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite sensitive 
AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge load (such as a 
refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set close to the generator's 
capacity. This incident was specific to a Honda 3000i. In contrast, 
Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when overloaded - not good for the generator, 
but also not likely to trip the output breaker.


This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your question.
Allan
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
This is going back several years...
  
  The Outback VFX series lacks the tight input current regulation of
  the SW series, so the max AC amps in is really just a suggestion.
  In many cases (and especially with these small generators) we want
  to set the max amps in as high as possible to minimize charging
  time and maximize C/rate. Yet a surge load can momentarily exceed
  the max amps setting. 
  
  I have observed that the Honda inverter/generators have a quite
  sensitive AC output breaker, that will sometimes trip if a surge
  load (such as a refrigerator) comes on during a charge cycle set
  close to the generator's capacity. This incident was specific to a
  Honda 3000i. In contrast, Yamaha's EF3000iSE will lug when
  overloaded - not good for the generator, but also not likely to
  trip the output breaker.
  
  This is a different issue than was being discussed, but fits your
  question.
  Allan
  
  


Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com



 
  On 1/29/2013 3:42 PM, Greg Egan wrote:


  
  
  Dan, that's the first I've heard of a Honda 3000i not working with
  an Outback inverter.  I hope it was a fluke (no pun intended). 
  Anyone else had issues with the Honda i line of gensets and
  inverters?
  
  Thanks again,
  -- 
  

Untitled Document

 Greg Egan
  ph (907)457-4299
  fx (907)457-4290
  www.remotepowerinc.com

  
  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility question

[Greg Egan]

Todd, Dan & Ray and all,

Thanks for the answers on my question.  Sorry for my slowness getting back.

The generator has a 30 amp 240 V twist lock connection we're using for 
power to the inverter - first through a PSX 240 xfmr.  I've spoken to 
the customer about adjusting the charging amperage down and seeing if 
that makes a difference.  I also gave him an electric heater (120 v) 
that has a low 900W and high 1300 W setting.  I'm hoping that by adding 
the resistive load while battery charging the genny will be able to run 
with a larger charging load and he won't have to run it as long.


Normally I don't recommend adding electric heat to an off grid home but 
he only uses his genny in the winter.  In the spring he gets enough sun 
that the PV can stay ahead of the load until mid fall. Thankfully when I 
brought up this idea he said he'd be happy to have some extra heat - 
we're having a REAL winter this year.


I told him to call me if he still has problems and I'll come out (he's a 
ways out of town).  If I do I'll bring the Fluke 87 and see if I can 
learn anything from it.


Dan, that's the first I've heard of a Honda 3000i not working with an 
Outback inverter.  I hope it was a fluke (no pun intended). Anyone else 
had issues with the Honda i line of gensets and inverters?


Thanks again,
--
Untitled Document

Greg Egan


ph (907)457-4299
fx (907)457-4290
www.remotepowerinc.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility

[Dan Fink]

Carl;

The Iotas we are using have an external jumper that you insert that allows
it to get to EQ voltage.

DAN


On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 7:31 PM, Carl Hansen  wrote:

>   Dan,
>You may be do this as well, but I frequently deal with homeowners with
> inexpensive generators, I find that the Outback and Magnum inverters are
> very tolerant but I do generally have to load the generator up to where I
> want it bulk charging the batteries, then adjust the generator speed to
> dial in the freqency to 60Hz using the throttle adj.  screw.
>Do you find the Iota chargers can reach bulk charge voltages, or even
> EQ voltages ?
>
> Carl Hansen
>
>
> --
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility

[jay peltz]

Many versions of the Iota, Todd before them and now Power Max ( 12v and 24v are 
available, not sure yet on the 48v) are adjustable or can be ordered with an 
adjustment feature which will allow for   higher than normal setpoints.  16v+ 
if you want it

Jay 
peltz power


On Jan 27, 2013, at 6:31 PM, Carl Hansen wrote:

>  Dan,
>You may be do this as well, but I frequently deal with homeowners with 
> inexpensive generators, I find that the Outback and Magnum inverters are very 
> tolerant but I do generally have to load the generator up to where I want it 
> bulk charging the batteries, then adjust the generator speed to dial in the 
> freqency to 60Hz using the throttle adj.  screw.
>Do you find the Iota chargers can reach bulk charge voltages, or even EQ 
> voltages ?
> 
> Carl Hansen
> 
> On 1/27/2013 5:15 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
>> We have run into many problems on very remote sites with various really 
>> nice, small newer inverter/chargers not accepting waveforms from various 
>> newer (inverter-based) generators. For example on one particular system 
>> Honda 1000i works fine, Honda 2000i works fine, Honda 3000i and the charger 
>> says "no." Plug a different Honda 3000i into the the same inverter/charger, 
>> works fine. After sling-loading the Honda there by helicopter. Argh! 
>> Inverter makers have been very helpful but the settings just can't be 
>> tweaked that far, RE Wrenches list gurus have been awesomely helpful, Honda 
>> not so helpful but at least honest.
>> 
>> My service calls by helicopter this year will include an O-scope. I really 
>> want to get to the bottom of the problem. It plagues us. I like Iota  
>> chargers more and more every summer.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Dan Fink,
>> Executive Director;
>> Otherpower
>> Buckville Energy Consulting
>> Buckville Publications LLC
>> NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
>> 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
>> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility

[Carl Hansen]

 Dan,
   You may be do this as well, but I frequently deal with homeowners 
with inexpensive generators, I find that the Outback and Magnum 
inverters are very tolerant but I do generally have to load the 
generator up to where I want it bulk charging the batteries, then adjust 
the generator speed to dial in the freqency to 60Hz using the throttle 
adj.  screw.
   Do you find the Iota chargers can reach bulk charge voltages, or 
even EQ voltages ?


Carl Hansen

On 1/27/2013 5:15 PM, Dan Fink wrote:
We have run into many problems on very remote sites with various 
really nice, small newer inverter/chargers not accepting waveforms 
from various newer (inverter-based) generators. For example on one 
particular system Honda 1000i works fine, Honda 2000i works fine, 
Honda 3000i and the charger says "no." Plug a different Honda 3000i 
into the the same inverter/charger, works fine. After sling-loading 
the Honda there by helicopter. Argh! Inverter makers have been 
very helpful but the settings just can't be tweaked that far, RE 
Wrenches list gurus have been awesomely helpful, Honda not so helpful 
but at least honest.


My service calls by helicopter this year will include an O-scope. I 
really want to get to the bottom of the problem. It plagues us. I like 
Iota  chargers more and more every summer.


--
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility

[Dan Fink]

We have run into many problems on very remote sites with various really
nice, small newer inverter/chargers not accepting waveforms from various
newer (inverter-based) generators. For example on one particular system
Honda 1000i works fine, Honda 2000i works fine, Honda 3000i and the charger
says "no." Plug a different Honda 3000i into the the same inverter/charger,
works fine. After sling-loading the Honda there by helicopter. Argh!
Inverter makers have been very helpful but the settings just can't be
tweaked that far, RE Wrenches list gurus have been awesomely helpful, Honda
not so helpful but at least honest.

My service calls by helicopter this year will include an O-scope. I really
want to get to the bottom of the problem. It plagues us. I like Iota
 chargers more and more every summer.

-- 
Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342 (voicemail)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Husqvarna 5500 and VFX3524 Compatibility

[Ray Walters]

Usually those portable generators have very poor wave forms, with a big 
spike on the leading edge of the sine wave.  Frequency regulation also 
can be all over the place as it gulps gas and sputters on impurities, 
etc.  When they get loaded, you keep the nasty little spike, but then 
the whole wave just squashes down too.  I've seen the peak (which should 
be 169v on a 117 v pure sine)  hitting under 140 v peak.
I usually recommend charging with cheap gennies in the day, and limiting 
other loads.  He definitely can't blame the inverter, as the generator 
power is just passing through a transfer switch straight to the loads 
when its running.  You're right to try backing down the charge rate and 
watch the generator waveform.  If you don't have an oscilloscope, a 
Fluke 87 can capture the peaks in fast capture mode.  Todd is also on to 
something, that generator doesn't have full output at 120 v, so you need 
a transformer to get a balanced full output from it.  Maxing out one 
leg, while the other leg is unloaded will eventually cause uneven wear 
of the generator.


Ray Walters

On 1/27/2013 4:20 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:


just curious... is this a 240 volt genny with only one leg loaded?

todd

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 1:34pm, "Greg Egan" 
 said:


Wrenchers and Wrenchettes,

A customer has a husq. 5500 generator and an Outback inverter.  His 
lights flicker in the house when he's charging.  Recently his 
generator died and he's having it repaired next week.  I think he 
thinks the inverter is causing the problem.  My understanding is that 
some generators have less accurate voltage regulators than others and 
the ones with the cheaper regulators have a hard time regulating when 
connected to a non linear load such as a battery charger.  I don't 
have a way to look at the sine wave but I suspect this is the problem 
here.


The trouble shooting I was planning was to take his (repaired) 
generator and connect it to the inverter and put a 15 amp charging 
load on the genny and turn on some lights.  If they flicker, start 
backing off on the charging amps and see if the flickering goes to 
zero as the charging load on the genset goes to zero.  The logic here 
is that if we take the charging load out of the circuit and the lights 
stop flickering and the genny stops surging, that what we have is an 
AVR that doesn't like the battery charger as a load and is "confused" 
by it.  Would this be correct?


If it is a VR problem I think switching to a Honda EU series inverter 
will solve the problem but customer doesn't want to buy a new genny.  
I read a post in the archives regarding generator compatibility and 
they recommended adding a resistive load when the charger is running. 
I've also heard there was a way of correcting compatibility problems 
with a capacitor.  If this is so, has anyone done it before and if so 
do you know the size and type of cap I'd need and where I would 
connect it in the circuit?


I called Outback Tech support and the person I talked to didn't seem 
to really know what I was talking about.  If I get this resolved I'll 
probably forward the solution to Outback for their FAQ's


Thanks for the assist - I appreciate it!
--

Greg Egan

Remote Power Inc.

ph (907)457-4299
fx (907)457-4290
www.remotepowerinc.com 




Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.


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