Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP consultant fee

[Kristopher Schmid]

Chris,

I have done this in the past.  WI incentives used to require NABCEP cert.
Looking back, i probably undercharged.  Given that you are putting your
reputation and certification on the line and therefor will need to be
involved in design, planning, and inspection, i think that a percentage of
the installed cost would be a good way to approach it.  I see this service
as very similar to a construction manager who typically receives 5-7% of
project cost.

Just my .02

Kris

On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> Good Day All,
>
> While I’m unsure how all states handle NABCEP, here in New
> York in order to obtain state incentives you or someone within your company
> must be a NABCEP PV professional. With the growth that our industry is
> experiencing there are more and more non-PV companies jumping into the
> scene. These companies are seeking out NABCEP individuals to add to their
> staffs without actually adding them to the payroll. My question to my
> NABCEP peers is what are you charging per project or how are you getting
> financially reimburse for your time/skills? Per watt, per project? If
> you’re uncomfortable making this public feel free to share your thoughts
> with me off list via my email or give me a call.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Christopher Schaefer
>
>
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
>
> [image: SolarWindFX]
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 <585-229-2083> or Cell
> 585-748-1870 <585-748-1870>  *
>
> * 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424*
>
> *www.solarandwindfx.com  ~ E-mail:
> ch...@solarandwindfx.com *
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to
> exist
> when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who
> would not."
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
864 Clam Falls Trail
Frederic, WI 54837
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Recertification Survey

[Tom Duffy]

Allan

We have also seen some rather cleverly worded references to NABCEP Techs 
(somewhere in the company) meaning there is a slim chance that you could get 
the NABCEP guy but probably not, when a consumer calls. They try to give the 
impression that all the techs are NABCEP. And who knows maybe none are. They’re 
out there!

I do agree that a customer reference via the three questions is a relevant 
venue for re-cert

Kind Regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer
[Description: Logo No Sun-small]
Toll Free 888-895-8179
t...@thesolar.biz
For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales 888-895-7847
Off Grid sales 888-895-7765 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612
Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2012 9:51 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Recertification Survey

Jeff,
I got certified in the first round in 2003, so my recert is due this year and 
I'm facing this added requirement for the first time just like you. While it's 
definitely an added hassle, and I would have preferred an earlier and louder 
heads-up announcement about the new requirements, I think it's a good thing.

Here's my take on it - when NABCEP started nobody knew what it was and 
Certification didn't mean much. Now it's a big deal, more in some areas than 
others. Now I regularly come across companies claiming some sort of NABCEP 
certification or approval that's not legitimate, and I periodically send web 
page links or quoted excerpts from their websites or newspaper ads to NABCEP, 
who sends them some sort of "cease and desist" warning. It's all about 
protecting the legitimacy of certification, resisting the call to make it 
easier to get and to keep. Once it's weakened it's hard to regain a solid 
reputation for it.

Most of us know of installers who are good at taking tests, and of someone who 
is certified but who probably shouldn't be, right? The need to submit actual 
customer feedback adds one more level of legitimacy, one more step to make it 
harder for that marginal installer to stay certified. So when I look at the 
bigger picture I have to be in favor of this added requirement. And I'll add 
that I would have a hard time wording three questions to better get the results 
that would address quality of installation issues than the ones used.
Just my $.02...
Allan
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com<mailto:al...@positiveenergysolar.com>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder and Chief Technology Officer
Positive Energy, Inc.
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com<http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/>


On 7/15/2012 7:49 AM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I have recently learned that as part of the NABCEP recertification process a 
Quality Assessment Survey must be presented to three System Owners during the 
recertification period.  The questions in the survey are:

TO BE COMPLETED BY SYSTEM OWNER:

1. Upon completion of the System installation, did the System work as expected?
Yes • No •
If no, please identify and explain all deficiencies or problems that you 
experienced.

2. Did the System installation cause any leaks or property damage?
Yes • No •
If yes, please identify and explain the nature of such leaks and/or damage.

3. Did the System installation cause any other problems or deficiencies that 
needed resolution during or after the installation of the System?
Yes • No •
If yes, please identify and explain such problems or deficiencies, and whether 
they were satisfactorily resolved in a timely, professional manner by the 
Installer?

Specifically asking about 'leaks and property damage' seems to me as 
unnecessary and in bad form as does the survey in general.

Are wrenches complying with the survey requirement and do you find the survey 
appropriate both in content and as a requirement to recertification?



Jeff


[cid:part3.01080309.02040807@positiveenergysolar.com]
Jeff Wongstrom
NABCEP Certified
406.291.3416
Check out the new website:
www.thirstylakesolar.com<http://www.thirstylakesolar.com>










___

List sponsored by Home Power magazine



List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>



Options & settings:

http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org



List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org



List rules & etiquette:

www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm>



Check out participant bios:

www.members.re-w

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Jeff, these are legitimate complaints, well and clearly stated. I
have forwarded them on to Ezra and others at NABCEP. (I'll forward
others too.)
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 6/2/2012 4:48 PM, JRQ wrote:

  
I'm in the process of NABCEP re-certification and I
have two complaints about their process:

  
1. In the last year, NABCEP added a requirement for 3
customer surveys as documentation of projects completed.
This was released just after I had left a job doing
installations to do consulting overseas over the winter. I
had all the permitting documentation, but having just
returned to the US this spring, now I have to go back and
try to get surveys filled out from projects that were done
sometime ago. It has, for various reasons, has been a real
hassle. 

  
I appreciate that NABCEP wants some customer feedback
on NABCEP installers, and it would have been no problem to
do this had it been an expectation from the beginning.
However I feel that they changed the rules of the game
midway through, and that's not fair. The moment you get
certified, the re-certification process should be fixed
until the next round.

  
2. There are three categories of continuing education
credits. There has been no indication from the
course-offerers or from NABCEP about how these courses
fulfill the categories. I mostly took classes from inverter
manufacturers that specifically list the number of NABCEP
credits the class is worth -- so there clearly was some kind
specific NABCEP accreditation involved. The onus shouldn't
be on me to guess which requirements class X fulfills,
especially when NABCEP has been involved in determining the
number of credits it is worth (as opposed to, say, taking an
OSHA course that is outside the PV industry), and when I've
paid for these classes partly towards maintaining my NABCEP
certification.

  
If NABCEP is going to have specific guidelines about
such things, following the guidelines shouldn't be such a
guessing game.

  
Jeffrey Quackenbush.

  

  

  
 
 From:
Andrew Truitt 
To:
RE-wrenches  
Sent:
Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:15 PM
        Subject:
        Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP
   


  
  
  Wrenches - I'd like to address some of the
aforementioned concerns about NABCEP.  I do not claim to
present the official NABCEP "company line", but I have
been a certificant since 2007, have been involved with a
few programmatic committees, and currently sit on the
board of directors.
  

  I certainly sympathize with Dana's frustration
with having to drive a full day to get to a testing
center.  There are many others in a similar
situation and it is one of the complaints about
NABCEP that I hear most often (along with exam
frequency).  Unfortunately NABCEP is still a very
small certification body relative to trade licensing
and, as a voluntary certification, we just don't
have the resources that states do.
  Allan is correct about the processes the
Exam Committees have to undergo in order to follow
defensible psychometric principles and maintain
NABCEP's ANSI accreditation.
  What additional resources would people like to use
at the exam?  I would be happy to take suggestions
to the Board.
  I think most certificants would agree that there
would be a value in multiple, specia

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[JRQ]

I'm in the process of NABCEP re-certification and I have two complaints about 
their process:

1. In the last year, NABCEP added a requirement for 3 customer surveys as 
documentation of projects completed. This was released just after I had left a 
job doing installations to do consulting overseas over the winter. I had all 
the permitting documentation, but having just returned to the US this spring, 
now I have to go back and try to get surveys filled out from projects that were 
done sometime ago. It has, for various reasons, has been a real hassle. 

I appreciate that NABCEP wants some customer feedback on NABCEP installers, and 
it would have been no problem to do this had it been an expectation from the 
beginning. However I feel that they changed the rules of the game midway 
through, and that's not fair. The moment you get certified, the 
re-certification process should be fixed until the next round.

2. There are three categories of continuing education credits. There has been 
no indication from the course-offerers or from NABCEP about how these courses 
fulfill the categories. I mostly took classes from inverter manufacturers that 
specifically list the number of NABCEP credits the class is worth -- so there 
clearly was some kind specific NABCEP accreditation involved. The onus 
shouldn't be on me to guess which requirements class X fulfills, especially 
when NABCEP has been involved in determining the number of credits it is worth 
(as opposed to, say, taking an OSHA course that is outside the PV industry), 
and when I've paid for these classes partly towards maintaining my NABCEP 
certification.

If NABCEP is going to have specific guidelines about such things, following the 
guidelines shouldn't be such a guessing game.

Jeffrey Quackenbush.




 From: Andrew Truitt 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2012 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP
 



Wrenches - I'd like to address some of the aforementioned concerns about 
NABCEP.  I do not claim to present the official NABCEP "company line", but I 
have been a certificant since 2007, have been involved with a 
few programmatic committees, and currently sit on the board of directors.
* I certainly sympathize with Dana's frustration with having to drive a 
full day to get to a testing center.  There are many others in a similar 
situation and it is one of the complaints about NABCEP that I hear most often 
(along with exam frequency).  Unfortunately NABCEP is still a very small 
certification body relative to trade licensing and, as a voluntary 
certification, we just don't have the resources that states do.
* Allan is correct about the processes the Exam Committees have to 
undergo in order to follow defensible psychometric principles and maintain 
NABCEP's ANSI accreditation.
* What additional resources would people like to use at the exam?  I 
would be happy to take suggestions to the Board.
* I think most certificants would agree that there would be a value in 
multiple, specialized NABCEP PV certifications.  If fact there has been 
numerous internal discussions about exactly that and I think the next 
certification that NABCEP develops will fall into this category.  However, 
certification development takes time and money, and some of the programs that 
NABCEP has developed have not received the interest that was anticipated, so we 
need to perform our due diligence before committing the sizable resources that 
it takes to create a new certification.  As the PV Installer certification 
stands now, it is intended to test a broad variety of knowledge, largely 
because historically companies were smaller and employees were more likely to 
be generalists.  The industry has obviously grown very rapidly with one result 
being increased specialization and NABCEP does intend to keep up with this 
trend.  With all that in mind NABCEP welcomes targeted
 donations for developing new credentials. 
* Certification certainly is a business, though I think that its worth 
noting that NABCEP was created by installers who were concerned with the 
workmanship of RE system installations and didn't want to see a repeat of what 
happened to the solar water heating industry in the '70s.  Since its inception 
NABCEP has been a volunteer-driven non-profit entity, guided by some of the 
most knowledgeable and dedicated people in the industry (many of whom are on 
this list-serve). 
* We are well aware of the fact that NABCEP certs often get "promoted 
off the roof" and find themselves in design, sales or managerial rolls.  
Obviously this reflects well on NABCEP certificants, but it is a problem for a 
program that requires ongoing field work for re-certification.  This is yet 
another challenge that we hope to address with future, more specialized 
certifications.  Note that it takes somewhere

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[David Brearley]

Sorry, William. You have to be the Executive Director of a non-profit or
similar to get a month vacation. If you¹re a NABCEP Certified Installer,  it
is catch as catch can. (I can attest to that.) However, there probably
aren¹t a lot of out of work NABCEP Certified Installers.

In all seriousness, one thing that gets lost in some of these discussions is
that the relative value of ANY certification varies depending upon where one
is in the food chain, so to speak. I¹ve worked in distribution, in design
and integration, and now in technical publishing. As an employee, I¹ve found
NABCEP certification super valuable. It has distinguished my resume from
others. It sets a floor for my value in terms of compensation. In fact, when
I worked for an installation firm, we had automatic pay raises for NABCEP
Certification.

If you¹re an owner of an installation firm, I think it¹s a very different
scenario. Your past work is the best part of your resume. It¹s a lot easier
to sell your company to future customers based on your long list of past
happy customers than it is to explain to them what in the world NABCEP
stands for and why they should care. I think it can be a selling point, but
if your not an employee the value in NABCEP is definitely more symbolic and
intangible. 

We all see a lot of mistakes that get made in our line of work. NABCEP
represents the industry¹s own desire to set and strive for a higher
standard. It¹s not the boogey man. It¹s not ³The Man.² It¹s your well
intentioned colleagues.

That¹s my experience and my 2 cents,

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer 




On 6/2/12 9:34 AM, "William Miller"  wrote:

> Colleagues:
> 
> I have been debating in my own mind the merits and demerits of applying for
> NABCEP.  I see below the conclusive evidence that I should become certified.
> If NAPCEP installers get to take month long vacations, I'm all in.
> 
> William Miller
> 
> 
> 
> At 07:17 AM 6/2/2012, you wrote:
> 
> 
>> The only person who would "officially" respond to Wrenches posts about NABCEP
>> would be Ezra Auerbach, the Executive Director. That's part of his job, to be
>> the public face for the organization. I have forwarded a few of these posts
>> to him, and have gotten back a robo-response that he and his wife are away on
>> vacation and will respond to emails upon return, I think around the end of
>> June. 
> 
> 



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[William Miller]

Colleagues:

I have been debating in my own mind the merits and demerits of applying for 
NABCEP.  I see below the conclusive evidence that I should become 
certified.  If NAPCEP installers get to take month long vacations, I'm all in.


William Miller



At 07:17 AM 6/2/2012, you wrote:


The only person who would "officially" respond to Wrenches posts about 
NABCEP would be Ezra Auerbach, the Executive Director. That's part of his 
job, to be the public face for the organization. I have forwarded a few of 
these posts to him, and have gotten back a robo-response that he and his 
wife are away on vacation and will respond to emails upon return, I think 
around the end of June.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Bill,
I'm not your "UL guy", and I haven't taken any UL trainings or
exams. But when I review the UL web page about this subject
(http://lms.ulknowledgeservices.com/catalog/display.resource.aspx?resourceid=285443),
the requirement is for a "qualified electrician", not a licensed
electrician. This wording on UL's part is likely for the same reason
that NABCEP doesn't require a license. The main reason is that
NABCEP is a national certification, while licensure requirements are
at most state-specific and often differ by county or municipality,
and the requirements have to be written to work in any jurisdiction.
Some states simply don't require licensure, so if either NABCEP or
UL required it, some qualified electricians would be prevented from
applying. 

To me, a valid second reason is that NABCEP (and probably UL as
well) have never been intended to compete with or have any formal
relationship to licensure, and so there shouldn't be any
cross-requirements. IMHO that is as it should be. The same holds
true for NABCEP having no official support for certification being
required by any jurisdiction, although a number of states tie
certification to some of their own standards by their own
initiative.

The UL certification appears to be considerably less rigorous that
the NABCEP PV Installer certification. NABCEP requires formal
training and evidence of having led a specific number of jobs in
order to qualify to sit for the exam; UL requires neither. Both
require the same continuing education and recertification every
three years, but NABCEP also requires evidence of completed
installations, with customer contact information for verification.
It appears that the only standard that is higher for the UL
certification is OSHA-30, while NABCEP only requires OSHA-10.

The only person who would "officially" respond to Wrenches posts
about NABCEP would be Ezra Auerbach, the Executive Director. That's
part of his job, to be the public face for the organization. I have
forwarded a few of these posts to him, and have gotten back a
robo-response that he and his wife are away on vacation and will
respond to emails upon return, I think around the end of June.
That's most likely why you haven't seen any "official" NABCEP
commentary on the subject.The rest of the people who might respond
are volunteers, not staff. You got a thoughtful post yesterday from
Andrew Truitt, who is on the Board of Directors as a volunteer, and
I respond as time allows (I'm a volunteer on the PV technical
committee, and I volunteered to help create the Company
Accreditation program). I would hope that Bob-O would respond on
NABCEP issues, as he too is on the BoD and his posts can be quite
entertaining, but I haven't seen a post from him on anything here
for many months, so I suspect he's either not monitoring the
Wrenches list or has retired...

I would not call NABCEP a "vendor", Bill, as that suggests a
for-profit business that must be held to strict tech-only standards
to respond on this list. NABCEP is a small nonprofit organization
set up by volunteers for the benefit of our industry.

Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 6/2/2012 6:39 AM, Bill Loesch wrote:

  
  
  Hi Chris, et al,
  
  As I remember, at least one of our colleagues on this list signs
  his email with the UL solar certification. I hope I don't put him
  on the spot, but I would be interested in his comments on the
  subject. As I remember, the UL blessing requires an electrician
  license, (as I remember, that "detail" is absent from the NABCEP
  blessing) wouldn't that also lend just a bit of competency to the
  conversation, too.
  
  I note (again) the absence of any "official" NABCEP commentary on
  the subject. I thought having vendors on the list for prompt
  response was the major reason for their inclusion.
  
  Respectfully,
  Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094
  
  On 01-Jun-12 7:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
  

  I really appreciate the effort that NABCEP takes to
ensure the certification has value. Being in the Caribbean,
I find that having a NABCEP PV certification ends the
conversation on competency before 

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Chris, et al,

As I remember, at least one of our colleagues on this list signs his 
email with the UL solar certification. I hope I don't put him on the 
spot, but I would be interested in his comments on the subject. As I 
remember, the UL blessing requires an electrician license, (as I 
remember, that "detail" is absent from the NABCEP blessing) wouldn't 
that also lend just a bit of competency to the conversation, too.


I note (again) the absence of any "official" NABCEP commentary on the 
subject. I thought having vendors on the list for prompt response was 
the major reason for their inclusion.


Respectfully,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094


On 01-Jun-12 7:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
I really appreciate the effort that NABCEP takes to ensure the 
certification has value. Being in the Caribbean, I find that having a 
NABCEP PV certification ends the conversation on competency before it 
begins, as no international company expects to find capable people 
here. Being NABCEP certified makes a hugh impression on investors and 
clients



--
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com 
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5038 - Release Date: 06/01/12

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Christopher Warfel]

I conduct a lot of program inspections. I estimate @ 120-150/year mostly 
in the northeast. I have noticed that w/r to the quality of the 
installation, I can usually tell when the installer is not NABCEP 
certified.  There are exceptions to this, but in general the systems 
with the most amount of problems are by non NABCEP installers.  This is 
a dynamic industry right now, and keeping up with all changes is 
difficult and time consuming (and who has time).  NABCEP, Solar Pro, 
HomePower, and several good text books are just about the only way I can 
almost keep up. Chris


On 6/1/2012 8:14 AM, Chris Mason wrote:
I really appreciate the effort that NABCEP takes to ensure the 
certification has value. Being in the Caribbean, I find that having a 
NABCEP PV certification ends the conversation on competency before it 
begins, as no international company expects to find capable people 
here. Being NABCEP certified makes a hugh impression on investors and 
clients



--
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com 
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



--

Christopher Warfel, P.E.
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
Energy Utilization Experts
(401)466-8978

The information contained within this communication shall
be considered confidential and shall not be retransmitted
without knowledge of the sender. Please contact us if
this email reached you in error. Thank you.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Chris Mason]

I really appreciate the effort that NABCEP takes to ensure the
certification has value. Being in the Caribbean, I find that having a
NABCEP PV certification ends the conversation on competency before it
begins, as no international company expects to find capable people here.
Being NABCEP certified makes a hugh impression on investors and clients


-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
www.cometenergysystems.com
Cell: 264.235.5670
Skype: netconcepts
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Andrew Truitt]

Wrenches - I'd like to address some of the aforementioned concerns about
NABCEP.  I do not claim to present the official NABCEP "company line", but
I have been a certificant since 2007, have been involved with a
few programmatic committees, and currently sit on the board of directors.

   - I certainly sympathize with Dana's frustration with having to drive a
   full day to get to a testing center.  There are many others in a similar
   situation and it is one of the complaints about NABCEP that I hear most
   often (along with exam frequency).  Unfortunately NABCEP is still a very
   small certification body relative to trade licensing and, as a voluntary
   certification, we just don't have the resources that states do.
   - Allan is correct about the processes the Exam Committees have to
   undergo in order to follow defensible psychometric principles and maintain
   NABCEP's ANSI accreditation.
   - What additional resources would people like to use at the exam?  I
   would be happy to take suggestions to the Board.
   - I think most certificants would agree that there would be a value in
   multiple, specialized NABCEP PV certifications.  If fact there has been
   numerous internal discussions about exactly that and I think the next
   certification that NABCEP develops will fall into this category.  However,
   certification development takes time and money, and some of the programs
   that NABCEP has developed have not received the interest that was
   anticipated, so we need to perform our due diligence before committing the
   sizable resources that it takes to create a new certification.  As the PV
   Installer certification stands now, it is intended to test a broad variety
   of knowledge, largely because historically companies were smaller and
   employees were more likely to be generalists.  The industry has obviously
   grown very rapidly with one result being increased specialization and
   NABCEP does intend to keep up with this trend.  With all that in mind
   NABCEP welcomes targeted donations for developing new credentials.
   - Certification certainly is a business, though I think that its worth
   noting that NABCEP was created by installers who were concerned with the
   workmanship of RE system installations and didn't want to see a repeat of
   what happened to the solar water heating industry in the '70s.  Since its
   inception NABCEP has been a volunteer-driven non-profit entity, guided by
   some of the most knowledgeable and dedicated people in the industry (many
   of whom are on this list-serve).
   - We are well aware of the fact that NABCEP certs often get "promoted
   off the roof" and find themselves in design, sales or managerial rolls.
Obviously this reflects well on NABCEP certificants, but it is a problem
   for a program that requires ongoing field work for re-certification.  This
   is yet another challenge that we hope to address with future, more
   specialized certifications.  Note that it takes somewhere between 12 and 18
   months to properly develop a credentialing program, and NABCEP has been
   quite busy over the years responding to market demands for Entry Level,
   Technical Sales, Small Wind, and now Company Accreditation.  We know that
   the industry is changing and we need to change with it, so keep the
   suggestions coming!


I think everyone I've ever met has had some idea about how NABCEP could be
better, and often times they are right.  Unfortunately NABCEP operates
under the real-world constraints of budgets, fund raising, volunteer
availability, consensus building, accreditation requirements, etc...   In
the end I think it is hard to argue that NABCEP has not benefited our
industry.  NYSERDA did a study and found that systems that were installed
by NABCEP Certified PV Installers had less issues at inspection than those
built by non-NABCEP installers.  As someone who cares deeply about
installation quality and safety, this tells me that NABCEP does provide
value and fills a needed roll in our industry.


For a brighter energy future,


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)

Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting

(202) 486-7507

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713


"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough







On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Chris Mason
wrote:

> One of the issues I have with the NABCEP certification is the title. When
> I look at the subject matter, comparing the scope to other similar
> certifications, I feel "installer" is not really accurate. I have a couple
> of workers that install PV systems with me, and they are able to get the
> job done. They are what I would call installers. They don't work with the
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Chris Mason]

One of the issues I have with the NABCEP certification is the title. When I
look at the subject matter, comparing the scope to other similar
certifications, I feel "installer" is not really accurate. I have a couple
of workers that install PV systems with me, and they are able to get the
job done. They are what I would call installers. They don't work with the
customer to design the right solution and solve problems, lay out the best
approach and develop the right bill of materials.

The skills that the NABCEP  PV certification Job Task Analysis requires is
more of a systems designer. An installer does not need trigonometry,
electrical theory and mechanical design to that extent.

In other disciplines, anyone with the depth of knowledge the NACBEP
requires would be a systems designer and project manager. The title
"Installer" does not properly convey this knowledge and skill set, and does
not give the customer an accurate representation of the role of the
professional.


-- 
Chris Mason
President, Comet Systems Ltd
NABCEP Certified PV installer 092411-103
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Bill Loesch]

Tom, et al,

Well said.

It's not just certification that is a business (and often a sleazy and 
opportunistic motivated one at that), EDUCATION is, today, a business.


Why does the manufacturer often charge for instruction on how to 
properly install their specific equipment? May I suggest $$$ and a 
misconception of what a bad install costs in terms of lost good will the 
end user could have provided that brand (and the trade in general). In 
many occupations there is a requirement for continuing education for 
continued certification. The involved, dedicated, and responsible person 
is doing this anyway. The supply chain is complicit in this 
misconception, too.


You might also ask why NABCEP doesn't even _address_ solar hot air. 
Would we be able to get that answer from the horse's mouth first-hand?


Respectfully,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094


On 24-May-12 7:09 PM, Tom Duffy wrote:


Certification is just a business, whether it's for computer Techs or 
Solar Installers, and they seem to be entities unto themselves. I have 
heard all the arguments for certs, but like you said some folks don't 
test well but are knowledgeable others test well but are clueless as 
to practical applications.


Back a decade or so ago I taught Computer Tech certification (A+) at 
our local university. In one class that I taught I had 23 network 
admins (Employed as such) and managing large networks. Only three 
tested and one passed. The point is all were capable network admins.


The real question is... how does one prove their expertise? Especially 
to the general public. I have seen some real nightmarish off grid 
systems setup by NABCEP installers and Non-NABCEP as well. It is a 
problem and though I don't believe in certification, I also don't have 
an alternative suggestion either.


**

Kind Regards

Tom Duffy

Senior Solar Design Engineer

Toll Free 888-895-8179

t...@thesolar.biz

For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales 
888-895-7847


Off Grid sales 888-895-7765Other Product Sales 888-895-9612

Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497Tech Support 888-895-8179

**

*From:*re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana

*Sent:* Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:04 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

NABCEP has been a strangely quiet subject on this forum. FYI - I 
checked with our honorable moderator prior to posting this.


If we are attempting to expand the field of "certified" installer and 
designers why is NABCEP run the way it is?


Getting the NABCEP cert and living in w.CO has been a virtual 
nightmare & living where I do and having to travel 7 hours each way, 
stay in a hotel etc, this is a joke. I may be in the minority but 
point to make here. Beyond that I became a wrench because I do not 
test well [avoided a 4 year degree] yet I can outline a schematic for 
electrical or plumbing in my head and build it the first time correctly.


The test schedule and availability - NABCEP needs to open up to local 
proctoring, libraries, schools, etc.


2 tests a Year? Electricians can re- test 24 or 48 hours? later and 
use a variety of resources. Why can we not?


When an electrician tests they get their results as they walk out of 
the test room.  Why do we have to wait 6 weeks?


The NEC book is the only reference  material at the test when is not 
doing a trade about knowing your resources and utilizing them? From 
what I understand any number of professions and trades get to use 
several resource books. You would think we were going to be secret 
agents or the like.


I have done off grid for 24 years. Most NABCEP folk who are GT only 
have not a clue as to battery based design and should not be allowed 
to do the same.


I am "certified" and probably very competent up to 50KW would be just 
fine but 100KW or 1MW? This is probably not a brilliant idea without a 
backup coach.


Questions on 3 phase on the test? I would ask my licensed master 
electrician yet we are asked several questions on 3 phase. I have 
asked masters and they have had to go look up the answer.


I would suggest a basic GT cert up to 50KW with a supplemental for 
>50kw and a separate adder for off grid. Tests every 2 month or on a 
scheduled basis with you local librarian


I fly my NABCEP cert in the bathroom and upside down. It is in 
distress, stinks, and needs help. The re-wrenches is strangely silent 
on this much damaged product called certification.


I see some major issues and would like to start a discussion about how 
it is managed.


I think it needs rethinking.

Thanks for considering & your opinion?

Dana Orzel -  Great Solar Works, Inc -  E - *d...@solarwork.com 
* -  V *970.626.5253*


F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com 



"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

*/P /**/Please consider the e

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Jesse Dahl]

Having been a Carpenter before becoming an electrician, and then working
with PV, I see the need for licencing of some sort.  You can all imagine
the "summer carpenters" I had to deal with.  Without a licensed trade like
plumbers and electricians in MN, anyone can do the work.  To become
a licensed electrician in MN, you need 10,000 hours of verified
work experience (apprenticeship) before you can even sit for the test.
 This makes our license reciprocal with, I believe, any state in the USA.
Last time I checked, if you came from say, Mississippi, you would need to
take our state electrical test to have your licence be accepted here in
MN (I just picked Mississippi).  Not every licensed electrician should be
left alone to wire, let alone run the electrical department at Home Depot!
  There are slackers in all trades.  Well maybe not perfect, to me, NABCEP
offers some kind of verifiable work experience and classroom time.

I am proud of both my state electrical licence and my NABCEP Certs.  Just
my Iron Range opinion.

I do like the idea of an off-grid and "utility" cert as well.


Jesse

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Tom Duffy  wrote:

>  Certification is just a business, whether it’s for computer Techs or
> Solar Installers, and they seem to be entities unto themselves. I have
> heard all the arguments for certs, but like you said some folks don’t test
> well but are knowledgeable others test well but are clueless as to
> practical applications.
>
> ** **
>
> Back a decade or so ago I taught Computer Tech certification (A+) at our
> local university. In one class that I taught I had 23 network admins
> (Employed as such) and managing large networks. Only three tested and one
> passed. The point is all were capable network admins.
>
> ** **
>
> The real question is… how does one prove their expertise? Especially to
> the general public. I have seen some real nightmarish off grid systems
> setup by NABCEP installers and Non-NABCEP as well. It is a problem and
> though I don’t believe in certification, I also don’t have an alternative
> suggestion either.  
>
> * *
>
> Kind Regards
>
> ** **
>
> Tom Duffy
>
> Senior Solar Design Engineer
>
> ** **
>
> Toll Free 888-895-8179
>
> t...@thesolar.biz
>
> For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales
> 888-895-7847 
>
> Off Grid sales 888-895-7765 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 
>
> Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179
>
> * *
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Dana
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:04 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] NABCEP
>
> ** **
>
> NABCEP has been a strangely quiet subject on this forum. FYI - I checked
> with our honorable moderator prior to posting this.
>
> ** **
>
> If we are attempting to expand the field of “certified“ installer and
> designers why is NABCEP run the way it is?
>
> ** **
>
> Getting the NABCEP cert and living in w.CO has been a virtual nightmare &
> living where I do and having to travel 7 hours each way, stay in a hotel
> etc, this is a joke. I may be in the minority but point to make here.
> Beyond that I became a wrench because I do not test well [avoided a 4 year
> degree] yet I can outline a schematic for electrical or plumbing in my head
> and build it the first time correctly.
>
> ** **
>
> The test schedule and availability - NABCEP needs to open up to local
> proctoring, libraries, schools, etc.
>
> 2 tests a Year? Electricians can re- test 24 or 48 hours? later and use a
> variety of resources. Why can we not?
>
> When an electrician tests they get their results as they walk out of the
> test room.  Why do we have to wait 6 weeks? 
>
> The NEC book is the only reference  material at the test when is not doing
> a trade about knowing your resources and utilizing them? From what I
> understand any number of professions and trades get to use several resource
> books. You would think we were going to be secret agents or the like. 
>
> ** **
>
> I have done off grid for 24 years. Most NABCEP folk who are GT only have
> not a clue as to battery based design and should not be allowed to do the
> same. 
>
> I am "certified" and probably very competent up to 50KW would be just fine
> but 100KW or 1MW? This is probably not a brilliant idea without a backup
> coach.
>
> Questions on 3 phase on the test? I would ask my licensed master
> electrician yet we are asked several questions on 3 phase. I have asked
> masters and they have had to go look up the answer.
>
> I would suggest a basic GT cert up to 50KW with a supplemental for >50kw
> and a separate adder for off grid. Tests every 2 month or on a scheduled
> basis with you local librarian
>
> ** **
>
> I fly my NABCEP cert in the bathroom and upside down. It is in distress,
> stinks, and needs help. The re-wrenche

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Tom Duffy]

Certification is just a business, whether it's for computer Techs or Solar 
Installers, and they seem to be entities unto themselves. I have heard all the 
arguments for certs, but like you said some folks don't test well but are 
knowledgeable others test well but are clueless as to practical applications.

Back a decade or so ago I taught Computer Tech certification (A+) at our local 
university. In one class that I taught I had 23 network admins (Employed as 
such) and managing large networks. Only three tested and one passed. The point 
is all were capable network admins.

The real question is... how does one prove their expertise? Especially to the 
general public. I have seen some real nightmarish off grid systems setup by 
NABCEP installers and Non-NABCEP as well. It is a problem and though I don't 
believe in certification, I also don't have an alternative suggestion either.

Kind Regards

Tom Duffy
Senior Solar Design Engineer

Toll Free 888-895-8179
t...@thesolar.biz
For: Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810  Grid tie sales 888-895-7847
Off Grid sales 888-895-7765 Other Product Sales 888-895-9612
Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:04 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

NABCEP has been a strangely quiet subject on this forum. FYI - I checked with 
our honorable moderator prior to posting this.

If we are attempting to expand the field of "certified" installer and designers 
why is NABCEP run the way it is?


Getting the NABCEP cert and living in w.CO has been a virtual nightmare & 
living where I do and having to travel 7 hours each way, stay in a hotel etc, 
this is a joke. I may be in the minority but point to make here. Beyond that I 
became a wrench because I do not test well [avoided a 4 year degree] yet I can 
outline a schematic for electrical or plumbing in my head and build it the 
first time correctly.



The test schedule and availability - NABCEP needs to open up to local 
proctoring, libraries, schools, etc.

2 tests a Year? Electricians can re- test 24 or 48 hours? later and use a 
variety of resources. Why can we not?

When an electrician tests they get their results as they walk out of the test 
room.  Why do we have to wait 6 weeks?

The NEC book is the only reference  material at the test when is not doing a 
trade about knowing your resources and utilizing them? From what I understand 
any number of professions and trades get to use several resource books. You 
would think we were going to be secret agents or the like.



I have done off grid for 24 years. Most NABCEP folk who are GT only have not a 
clue as to battery based design and should not be allowed to do the same.

I am "certified" and probably very competent up to 50KW would be just fine but 
100KW or 1MW? This is probably not a brilliant idea without a backup coach.

Questions on 3 phase on the test? I would ask my licensed master electrician 
yet we are asked several questions on 3 phase. I have asked masters and they 
have had to go look up the answer.

I would suggest a basic GT cert up to 50KW with a supplemental for >50kw and a 
separate adder for off grid. Tests every 2 month or on a scheduled basis with 
you local librarian



I fly my NABCEP cert in the bathroom and upside down. It is in distress, 
stinks, and needs help. The re-wrenches is strangely silent on this much 
damaged product called certification.

I see some major issues and would like to start a discussion about how it is 
managed.

I think it needs rethinking.



Thanks for considering & your opinion?


Dana Orzel -  Great Solar Works, Inc -  E - 
d...@solarwork.com -  V 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - 
www.solarwork.com
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
P Please consider the environment before printing this email

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Dana, 
I know where you live because I once lived there, and even worked
with you for a short spell in 1994. It's called "mountain paradise",
and you have been able to make a decent living there, doing well the
work you love while living in the heart of it. Part of why it's
paradise is that it's far from any big cities. Seems like a pretty
fair tradeoff to me.

As I understand it, there's a six week wait because the test is
structured to meet national (ANSI?) standards for legitimate
certification. The test is revised each time it's offered; each has
some questions that are different from the last. All of the test
question are checked for the number of incorrect answers, in order
to determine if some questions are sufficiently misleading or
confusing as to warrant being thrown out. That especially benefits
someone such as yourself who doesn't test well.

I'd love to see a separate certification for battery-based systems.
I'd get that one too, as it would mean a much smaller crowd. I'd
also like to see a separate certification for "Commercial GT over
50kW" - I wouldn't even try for that one.

I see the typical electrician's exam, with its immediate results
(for an additional "fee") as the joke. A skilled and knowledgeable
electrician can pass it. A skilled test taker can get 25% right on
that skill alone, and another 50% by taking one of the "no pass no
pay" private test prep courses. You can't do that with the NABCEP
Certification exam. To me that's a good thing.

Methinks you complain too much, sir.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Founder and Chief Technology Officer
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3209 Richards Lane (note new address)
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 5/24/2012 12:03 PM, Dana wrote:

  
  
  
  
NABCEP has been a
strangely quiet subject on this forum. FYI - I checked with
our honorable moderator prior to posting this.
 
If we are attempting to
expand the field of “certified“ installer and designers why
is NABCEP run the way it is?
 
Getting the NABCEP cert
and living in w.CO has been a virtual nightmare & living
where I do and having to travel 7 hours each way, stay in a
hotel etc, this is a joke. I may be in the minority but
point to make here. Beyond that I became a wrench because I
do not test well [avoided a 4 year degree] yet I can outline
a schematic for electrical or plumbing in my head and build
it the first time correctly.
 
The test schedule and
availability - NABCEP needs to open up to local proctoring,
libraries, schools, etc.
2 tests a Year?
Electricians can re- test 24 or 48 hours? later and use a
variety of resources. Why can we not?
When an electrician
tests they get their results as they walk out of the test
room.  Why do we have to wait 6 weeks? 
The NEC book is the
only reference  material at the test when is not doing a
trade about knowing your resources and utilizing them? From
what I understand any number of professions and trades get
to use several resource books. You would think we were going
to be secret agents or the like. 
 
I have done off grid
for 24 years. Most NABCEP folk who are GT only have not a
clue as to battery based design and should not be allowed to
do the same. 
I am "certified" and
probably very competent up to 50KW would be just fine but
100KW or 1MW? This is probably not a brilliant idea without
a backup coach.
Questions on 3 phase on
the test? I would ask my licensed master electrician yet we
are asked several questions on 3 phase. I have asked masters
and they have had to go look up the answer.
I would suggest a basic
GT cert up to 50KW with a supplemental for >50kw and a
separate adder for off grid. Tests every 2 month or on a
scheduled basis with you local librarian
 
I fly my NABCEP cert in
the bathroom and upside down. It is in distress, stinks, and
needs help. The re-wrenches is strangely silent on this much
damaged product called certification.
I see some major issues
  

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Credits

[Christopher Warfel]

David, Have you contacted NABCEP?  They would probably have all the 
contact information if they are qualifying the training for credits.  Chris


On 4/6/2012 9:42 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


Wrenches,

I am trying to chase down NABCEP credit hours from the Feb 28/29^th 
ALT E Dealer Conference in Waterville Valley, NH.


The trainers said they would send the certificates out to folks when 
they got back to their offices. 4 weeks later and no certificates 
(needed for recertification for an employee).


We would appreciate any contact information for someone in the 
following organizations whom may be responsive enough to help us out.


· Schneider Electric

· Deka Battery (East Penn)

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655**

*/www.independentpowerllc.com /*

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options&  settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules&  etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

   


--

Christopher Warfel, P.E.
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
Energy Utilization Experts
(401)466-8978

The information contained within this communication shall
be considered confidential and shall not be retransmitted
without knowledge of the sender. Please contact us if
this email reached you in error. Thank you.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Credits

[Dave Palumbo]

Wrenches,

 

I am trying to chase down NABCEP credit hours from the Feb 28/29th ALT E
Dealer Conference in Waterville Valley, NH. 

The trainers said they would send the certificates out to folks when they
got back to their offices. 4 weeks later and no certificates (needed for
recertification for an employee).

 

We would appreciate any contact information for someone in the following
organizations whom may be responsive enough to help us out.

. Schneider Electric

. Deka Battery (East Penn)

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Jesse Dahl]

The info on the ongrid solar website also is a good fit for the NABCEP PV
sales exam..

Jesse

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Roy Butler wrote:

>  Nick,
>
> The best advice I can give you is to use the NABCEP PV Technical Sales
> Resource Guide.
> The exam is based on the Task Analysis, as is the Resource Guide.
>
> The resources used to develop the exam are also used to develop the
> Resource Guide.
>
> It's a really handy document.
>
> Roy Butler
> NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer®
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
> NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
> Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
> 8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com
>
> Join us at the 8th Annual Small Wind Conference
> A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors
> June 12 and 13, 2012 in Stevens Point, Wisconsinwww.smallwindconference.com
>
> Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
> a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
>
>
>
>
> On 1/29/2012 7:10 PM, Nick Vida wrote:
>
>  Hi all,
>
>  out of curiosity, what resources are you using to study for this?
> If it is like the PV installer test, it is a puzzle and a test, but all
> and all, not that hard if you super know your stuff.
>
>  nick vida
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Keith Cronin]

Hi folks

Well, it could be applicable, as I see the trends shifting on how the business 
is done, as you've pointed out below. Understanding and creating a strategy on 
adapting to the changing market trends, as we know requires some time, effort, 
research and help.

Getting prepared is the next step. Develop the systems/processes if you believe 
you need to close on 1 visit. Its a big commitment and ponder whether even in a 
lease, $0 down, if folks sign 20 page documents and don't read the fine print 
and get, like a doctor, a second opinion, regardless of how sweet the deal is.

You and any small shop can offer great service and very personal attention to 
customer care. Its not when things are going well, do people remember- its what 
you did when it didn't that is seared into their cerebrums.

Wrenches here are uniquely ready to show off their knowledge, experience, 
expertise and craftsmanship. Your brands have been around for a long time and 
market your longevity accordingly.

Don't give up on financing- know you can tap into the credit union entities- 
they're clamoring to write loans. Went to our local building trade show 
yesterday- evidenced by a handful of credit unions eager to have you go green 
and the terms are very affordable for consumers and they have multiple ways of 
doing it, not just a refi or home equity, which can be time consuming to write 
and process. There are great personal loans now that are 60 months, 4.5%; 
minimum $5k loan; they'll also do up to 180 months @ 8%. Plenty of time to 
recoup the incentives and have a payment that is lower than what they're paying 
now (at lease out here its applicable).

In alot of ways, it seems that solar is now affordable to many folks and the 
technology- on the grid tie stuff is less complicated than the first days of 
being able to interconnect to the utility, so I'm optimistic for whats possible.
 
Aloha, Keith



 From: Mark Frye 
To: 'Keith Cronin' ; 'RE-wrenches' 
 
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 9:03 AM
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales
 

Keith et. Al.
 
Not really sure that this is appropriate for Wrenches 
but.
 
Here in California, the big installers like SolarCity and 
Sungevity etc. are moving to closing the sale on the first visit to the site, 
cleaning up the details after the fact.
 
But, the big thing now is that these groups have succesfully 
integrated the financial services into the product offering. 0$ down leases are 
now the main offering. 

This is a huge bar that the small shops can't even begin to 
touch.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 
95959 
(530) 
401-8024 
www.berkeleysolar.com  
 



 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith 
Cronin
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP 
Sales


Jessie

Great question and it spawned a few additional questions.

1. How many on the list here do urban only or 97% on 
grid vs off grid systems?
2. How many urban solar folks today, have segued to 
mostly micro inverters vs string inverters?
3. How many wrenches here do mostly battery 
systems?
4. How many folks here have sales engineers or sell 
systems themselves?
5. If you have a sales team, what are they allowed to 
do? Go on the roof and measure? Open an electrical 
panel/meter?

Reason I ask, is the trends seem to be shifting in our 
area and perhaps because its more urban. Sales folks are trained to do 
preliminary work- google earth/pictometry etc. 
Then have a baseline for system sizing, prior to the 
site visit. They contact prospects and go over their needs and get the electric 
bill prior to the visit.
If the prospects express all of the buying signs or its 
a referral- hot to trot, many companies here will give a proposal within the 
second visit, pending the electrician/pre inspection to dial in the electrical 
and roof verification items to ensure whats being proposed can actually be 
installed for final proposal presentation. Many companies don't allow sales 
folks on roofs or near electrical panels for many reasons including liability 
and lack of background.

So, if you're a small company- all electricians, so to speak, this test and 
the supporting framework would be very helpful.
For alot of the larger companies- and I mean over 5-10+ sales force, I 
believe the structure of how they approach prospects has shifted over the last 
couple of years, especially in light of micro inverters and their relative 
design simplicity. I believe this trend will continue, as we see more and more 
micro or AC output modules entering into the marketplace.

For the folks that are doing off grid stuff, I've always found it to be a 
more unique niche, as its a very technical sale and requires a deepe

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Roy Butler]

  
  
Nick,

The best advice I can give you is to use the NABCEP PV Technical
Sales Resource Guide.
The exam is based on the Task Analysis, as is the Resource Guide.

The resources used to develop the exam are also used to develop the
Resource Guide.

It's a really handy document.
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer®
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747  www.four-winds-energy.com

Join us at the 8th Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors
June 12 and 13, 2012 in Stevens Point, Wisconsin
www.smallwindconference.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 1/29/2012 7:10 PM, Nick Vida wrote:

  
Hi all,


out of curiosity, what resources are you using to study for
  this?
If it is like the PV installer test, it is a puzzle and a
  test, but all and all, not that hard if you super know your
  stuff.


nick vida
  
  
  
  
  ___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



  


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Mark Frye]

Keith et. Al.
 
Not really sure that this is appropriate for Wrenches but.
 
Here in California, the big installers like SolarCity and Sungevity etc. are
moving to closing the sale on the first visit to the site, cleaning up the
details after the fact.
 
But, the big thing now is that these groups have succesfully integrated the
financial services into the product offering. 0$ down leases are now the
main offering. 

This is a huge bar that the small shops can't even begin to touch.
 
Mark Frye 
Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 
303 Redbud Way 
Nevada City,  CA 95959 
(530) 401-8024 
 <http://www.berkeleysolar.com/> www.berkeleysolar.com  
 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Keith Cronin
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 10:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales


Jessie


Great question and it spawned a few additional questions.


1. How many on the list here do urban only or 97% on grid vs off grid
systems?
2. How many urban solar folks today, have segued to mostly micro inverters
vs string inverters?
3. How many wrenches here do mostly battery systems?
4. How many folks here have sales engineers or sell systems themselves?
5. If you have a sales team, what are they allowed to do? Go on the roof and
measure? Open an electrical panel/meter?


Reason I ask, is the trends seem to be shifting in our area and perhaps
because its more urban. Sales folks are trained to do preliminary work-
google earth/pictometry etc. 
Then have a baseline for system sizing, prior to the site visit. They
contact prospects and go over their needs and get the electric bill prior to
the visit.
If the prospects express all of the buying signs or its a referral- hot to
trot, many companies here will give a proposal within the second visit,
pending the electrician/pre inspection to dial in the electrical and roof
verification items to ensure whats being proposed can actually be installed
for final proposal presentation. Many companies don't allow sales folks on
roofs or near electrical panels for many reasons including liability and
lack of background.


So, if you're a small company- all electricians, so to speak, this test and
the supporting framework would be very helpful.
For alot of the larger companies- and I mean over 5-10+ sales force, I
believe the structure of how they approach prospects has shifted over the
last couple of years, especially in light of micro inverters and their
relative design simplicity. I believe this trend will continue, as we see
more and more micro or AC output modules entering into the marketplace.

For the folks that are doing off grid stuff, I've always found it to be a
more unique niche, as its a very technical sale and requires a deeper skill
set, as the competence of the sales/designer/installer/service team is
usually a small group of people from a small company, but I reserve the
right to be wrong about this. I see a future when and where we will all be
off grid and there will be a huge market to service the energy storage
devices that support our baseline energy from solar or another non firm
energy resource to power our futures, as grid saturation and feeder
capacities at the utility level will cause us to head in this direction,
naturally.
 
Aloha, Keith

  _  

From: Jesse Dahl 
To: Wrenches  
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:05 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales



Hello,


I'm prepping for the NABCEP sales exam and was wondering if others on here
have taken it?  What are your thoughts?

Jesse
Sent from my iPad!!!
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales

[Keith Cronin]

Jessie

Great question and it spawned a few additional questions.

1. How many on the list here do urban only or 97% on grid vs off grid systems?
2. How many urban solar folks today, have segued to mostly micro inverters vs 
string inverters?
3. How many wrenches here do mostly battery systems?
4. How many folks here have sales engineers or sell systems themselves?
5. If you have a sales team, what are they allowed to do? Go on the roof and 
measure? Open an electrical panel/meter?

Reason I ask, is the trends seem to be shifting in our area and perhaps because 
its more urban. Sales folks are trained to do preliminary work- google 
earth/pictometry etc. 
Then have a baseline for system sizing, prior to the site visit. They contact 
prospects and go over their needs and get the electric bill prior to the visit.
If the prospects express all of the buying signs or its a referral- hot to 
trot, many companies here will give a proposal within the second visit, pending 
the electrician/pre inspection to dial in the electrical and roof verification 
items to ensure whats being proposed can actually be installed for final 
proposal presentation. Many companies don't allow sales folks on roofs or near 
electrical panels for many reasons including liability and lack of background.

So, if you're a small company- all electricians, so to speak, this test and the 
supporting framework would be very helpful.
For alot of the larger companies- and I mean over 5-10+ sales force, I believe 
the structure of how they approach prospects has shifted over the last couple 
of years, especially in light of micro inverters and their relative design 
simplicity. I believe this trend will continue, as we see more and more micro 
or AC output modules entering into the marketplace.

For the folks that are doing off grid stuff, I've always found it to be a more 
unique niche, as its a very technical sale and requires a deeper skill set, as 
the competence of the sales/designer/installer/service team is usually a small 
group of people from a small company, but I reserve the right to be wrong about 
this. I see a future when and where we will all be off grid and there will be a 
huge market to service the energy storage devices that support our baseline 
energy from solar or another non firm energy resource to power our futures, as 
grid saturation and feeder capacities at the utility level will cause us to 
head in this direction, naturally.
 
Aloha, Keith



 From: Jesse Dahl 
To: Wrenches  
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2012 8:05 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Sales
 

Hello,


I'm prepping for the NABCEP sales exam and was wondering if others on here have 
taken it?  What are your thoughts?

Jesse
Sent from my iPad!!!
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP test

[North Texas Renewable Energy Inc]

Gives a whole new meaning to non-profit.
Jim
  My favorite part was when the test results arrived by mail, it had a
postage due notice on it.

  Had to pony up more $$ to tell if I passed or failed!!



  Glenn Burt



  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Vida
  Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:35 PM
  To: wrenches
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP test



  my favorite part of the test was sitting for an ultra detailed exam that
expected you to have certain things memorized that no engineer or
electrician does't use resources for (like voltage drop, lag bolt ratings,
and the rest) and getting the letter with the test location with the wrong
address on it!



  I was sent to:

  810 n. Poinsettia Santa Ana 92647



  when the actual address was:

  810 n. Poinsettia St. Santa Ana 92701



  Imagine my surprise when I drove 40 miles to a city I barley know for a
test you can't take if you are late, and I arrive in a sub-division!

  And yes, having a St, Rd or Ln is a big part of finding the place, as well
as the correct zipcode!



  Nick I agree, but what really got me was all the "most safe" questions. I
am glad that it is hard, however, because now that a c-10 can take it after
2 installs I think it is pretty hard to really expect too much respect. That
being said, combined with my 6 years of installing, it is a nice additional
credential.



  nick vida/


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP test

[Glenn Burt]

My favorite part was when the test results arrived by mail, it had a postage
due notice on it.

Had to pony up more $$ to tell if I passed or failed!!

 

Glenn Burt

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Vida
Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:35 PM
To: wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP test

 

my favorite part of the test was sitting for an ultra detailed exam that
expected you to have certain things memorized that no engineer or
electrician does't use resources for (like voltage drop, lag bolt ratings,
and the rest) and getting the letter with the test location with the wrong
address on it!

 

I was sent to:

810 n. Poinsettia Santa Ana 92647

 

when the actual address was:

810 n. Poinsettia St. Santa Ana 92701

 

Imagine my surprise when I drove 40 miles to a city I barley know for a test
you can't take if you are late, and I arrive in a sub-division! 

And yes, having a St, Rd or Ln is a big part of finding the place, as well
as the correct zipcode!

 

Nick I agree, but what really got me was all the "most safe" questions. I am
glad that it is hard, however, because now that a c-10 can take it after 2
installs I think it is pretty hard to really expect too much respect. That
being said, combined with my 6 years of installing, it is a nice additional
credential.

 

nick vida/

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Darryl Thayer]

HI Nick I am sympathic.  How ever I keep complaining the test is too easy and 
Obscure.  Yes, too easy and the questions are obscure.  I think NABCEP is 
trying 
to make a fair test, question writing is very hard,  I am sure we all want the 
highest standards for NABCEP it is the way we are going get respect and be 
named 
on bid requests, "I want a NABCEP installer" rings because we represent 
quality.  


Thanks and good luck, because luck is part of it.
Darryl





From: Nick Soleil 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 1:43:55 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test


Hello Ezra, Bob-o, and wrenches:
    I guess if I were to pass the exam, and if I could find my results, I would 
be content.  However, I do have a concern that if the test is calibrated to 
achieve a 50% pass rate, that the problems must be made vague and confusing to 
cause difficulty.  Here are my primary concerns.
- The test material did not match the study guide
- The most recent test seems to test us on a number of obscure OSHA facts, that 
do not really pertain to designing and installing solar, to keep the test 
difficult.
- With each test cycle, the candidates are told they need to study x number of 
hours to pass the test, but only 50% pass, so the next group has to study 2x 
times to pass the exam.  As more folks study harder and harder to pass the 
test, 
the test only gets harder or the pass level is raised to keep the same level of 
a 50% pass rate. Over time we have to study more and more obscure facts, that 
have less to do with solar installing and designing, and more to do with 
short-term memorization of unimportant material.
    Additionally, I believe that the test contained some mistakes.  One 
question 
required an analysis of two roof surfaces, and we had to find which surface 
would produce more power, and how much more power.  However, the azimuths were 
listed as 'Compass' degree readings, but the provided chart gave outputs for 
'True' degrees.  The question did not provide the magnetic declination for the 
site!  

   

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 





From: Bob-O Schultze 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 9:34:51 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

Larry, 
This also from Ezra -who, because of a bit of silliness on the part of the 
moderator of this list- cannot post here.

"Larry,

NABCEP provides test takers with a passing score and a partial breakdown of 
their score by exam blueprint area. It is always a bit confusing because we 
report only on those exam blueprint areas where there are sufficient number of 
questions for the information provided to be relevant. For example informing a 
candidate that they scored 50% in an area where there were only two questions 
provided little useful information but informing the same candidate that they 
scored 50% on an area where there are ten questions clearly informs them that 
this is an area where further study is required. 

We do not provide candidates with individual questions they missed as this 
would 
have a strong negative impact on the security of the exam. If we informed 
candidates on individual questions we would have to retire each exam question 
we 
did so with which would put a huge burden of developing new questions on our 
volunteer exam committee. It would also but a burden on the exam itself as we 
would be continually retiring statically field proven questions.

I know it is disappointing to candidates to not see the questions they missed, 
and if I was a candidate I'd likely be frustrated as well. I also know that it 
is simply not practical to do so and that our procedures are in accordance to 
established and recognized testing protocols. 

Sincerely,

Ezra Auerbach
Executive Director"

eauerb...@nabcep.org

To which I also add to replay to your last post:
You are incorrect that 70 is always the passing grade. It can be a little lower 
or even a little higher depending on the difficulty of that particular test and 
if we have identified any questions which have proved to be unclear or 
ambiguous. It takes time for our testing agency to compile that data. It takes 
time for our test committee to re-evaluate the questions and how they were 
answered. Lastly, each and every Certificant (not Entry Level) testing results 
comes before the Board with the raw information and the recommendations of our 
committee for a final decision and approval of a passing score. We go to great 
lengths to make sure all our testing is as fair and unbiased as possible.
As Ezra points out, it would be HUGELY expensive to have to replace our 
question 
pool for every test because we revealed the questions which you missed to you. 
Surely you can see that those questions would be widely circulated by the t

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Nick Soleil]

Hello Ezra, Bob-o, and wrenches:
I guess if I were to pass the exam, and if I could find my results, I would 
be content.  However, I do have a concern that if the test is calibrated to 
achieve a 50% pass rate, that the problems must be made vague and confusing to 
cause difficulty.  Here are my primary concerns.
- The test material did not match the study guide
- The most recent test seems to test us on a number of obscure OSHA facts, that 
do not really pertain to designing and installing solar, to keep the test 
difficult.
- With each test cycle, the candidates are told they need to study x number of 
hours to pass the test, but only 50% pass, so the next group has to study 2x 
times to pass the exam.  As more folks study harder and harder to pass the 
test, 
the test only gets harder or the pass level is raised to keep the same level of 
a 50% pass rate. Over time we have to study more and more obscure facts, that 
have less to do with solar installing and designing, and more to do with 
short-term memorization of unimportant material.
Additionally, I believe that the test contained some mistakes.  One 
question 
required an analysis of two roof surfaces, and we had to find which surface 
would produce more power, and how much more power.  However, the azimuths were 
listed as 'Compass' degree readings, but the provided chart gave outputs for 
'True' degrees.  The question did not provide the magnetic declination for the 
site!  

   

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: Bob-O Schultze 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 9:34:51 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

Larry,
This also from Ezra -who, because of a bit of silliness on the part of the 
moderator of this list- cannot post here.

"Larry,

NABCEP provides test takers with a passing score and a partial breakdown of 
their score by exam blueprint area. It is always a bit confusing because we 
report only on those exam blueprint areas where there are sufficient number of 
questions for the information provided to be relevant. For example informing a 
candidate that they scored 50% in an area where there were only two questions 
provided little useful information but informing the same candidate that they 
scored 50% on an area where there are ten questions clearly informs them that 
this is an area where further study is required. 

We do not provide candidates with individual questions they missed as this 
would 
have a strong negative impact on the security of the exam. If we informed 
candidates on individual questions we would have to retire each exam question 
we 
did so with which would put a huge burden of developing new questions on our 
volunteer exam committee. It would also but a burden on the exam itself as we 
would be continually retiring statically field proven questions.

I know it is disappointing to candidates to not see the questions they missed, 
and if I was a candidate I'd likely be frustrated as well. I also know that it 
is simply not practical to do so and that our procedures are in accordance to 
established and recognized testing protocols. 

Sincerely,

Ezra Auerbach
Executive Director"

eauerb...@nabcep.org

To which I also add to replay to your last post:
You are incorrect that 70 is always the passing grade. It can be a little lower 
or even a little higher depending on the difficulty of that particular test and 
if we have identified any questions which have proved to be unclear or 
ambiguous. It takes time for our testing agency to compile that data. It takes 
time for our test committee to re-evaluate the questions and how they were 
answered. Lastly, each and every Certificant (not Entry Level) testing results 
comes before the Board with the raw information and the recommendations of our 
committee for a final decision and approval of a passing score. We go to great 
lengths to make sure all our testing is as fair and unbiased as possible.
As Ezra points out, it would be HUGELY expensive to have to replace our 
question 
pool for every test because we revealed the questions which you missed to you. 
Surely you can see that those questions would be widely circulated by the time 
candidates sat for the next test, making them useless.
Bob-O

On Apr 1, 2011, at 5:57 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:

Ezra,


Do you follow guidelines as to the "rights and responsibilities" of test 
takers. 
Do test takers have a right to see the questions they got wrong?


Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenche

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[wirewiz]

Bob-O,

Sorry about the 70. I understand about not being able to tell us what we got 
wrong, those questions would circulate pretty fast, not by me of course.

I've been hard on NABCEP, especially privately to Ezra, lots of frustrations 
taken out on Ezra, but he takes it well, and follows up with thorough 
explanations about policies, etc. and understands my (and I'm sure others) 
frustrations and unlike me sometimes, is always polite. Enough sucking up.

Hey, I can't let you go without taking another shot about that ad in Home 
Power. Even if I pass this time, I will still feel that ad is unfair. We are 
all in the same industry and we are all trying to make a living here but that 
ad hits below the belt to highly qualified non certificants.

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



On Apr 1, 2011, at 12:34 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:

> Larry,
> This also from Ezra -who, because of a bit of silliness on the part of the 
> moderator of this list- cannot post here.
> 
> "Larry,
> 
> NABCEP provides test takers with a passing score and a partial breakdown of 
> their score by exam blueprint area. It is always a bit confusing because we 
> report only on those exam blueprint areas where there are sufficient number 
> of questions for the information provided to be relevant. For example 
> informing a candidate that they scored 50% in an area where there were only 
> two questions provided little useful information but informing the same 
> candidate that they scored 50% on an area where there are ten questions 
> clearly informs them that this is an area where further study is required. 
> 
> We do not provide candidates with individual questions they missed as this 
> would have a strong negative impact on the security of the exam. If we 
> informed candidates on individual questions we would have to retire each exam 
> question we did so with which would put a huge burden of developing new 
> questions on our volunteer exam committee. It would also but a burden on the 
> exam itself as we would be continually retiring statically field proven 
> questions.
> 
> I know it is disappointing to candidates to not see the questions they 
> missed, and if I was a candidate I'd likely be frustrated as well. I also 
> know that it is simply not practical to do so and that our procedures are in 
> accordance to established and recognized testing protocols. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Ezra Auerbach
> Executive Director"
> 
> eauerb...@nabcep.org
> 
> To which I also add to replay to your last post:
> You are incorrect that 70 is always the passing grade. It can be a little 
> lower or even a little higher depending on the difficulty of that particular 
> test and if we have identified any questions which have proved to be unclear 
> or ambiguous. It takes time for our testing agency to compile that data. It 
> takes time for our test committee to re-evaluate the questions and how they 
> were answered. Lastly, each and every Certificant (not Entry Level) testing 
> results comes before the Board with the raw information and the 
> recommendations of our committee for a final decision and approval of a 
> passing score. We go to great lengths to make sure all our testing is as fair 
> and unbiased as possible.
> As Ezra points out, it would be HUGELY expensive to have to replace our 
> question pool for every test because we revealed the questions which you 
> missed to you. Surely you can see that those questions would be widely 
> circulated by the time candidates sat for the next test, making them useless.
> Bob-O
> 
> On Apr 1, 2011, at 5:57 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Ezra,
> 
> Do you follow guidelines as to the "rights and responsibilities" of test 
> takers. Do test takers have a right to see the questions they got wrong?
> 
> Larry Liesner
> Wirewiz
> Westport, CT
> Phone: 203-644-2404
> Fax: 203-557-0556
> wire...@gmail.com
> www.wire-wiz.com
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Bob-O Schultze]

Larry,
This also from Ezra -who, because of a bit of silliness on the part of the 
moderator of this list- cannot post here.

"Larry,

NABCEP provides test takers with a passing score and a partial breakdown of 
their score by exam blueprint area. It is always a bit confusing because we 
report only on those exam blueprint areas where there are sufficient number of 
questions for the information provided to be relevant. For example informing a 
candidate that they scored 50% in an area where there were only two questions 
provided little useful information but informing the same candidate that they 
scored 50% on an area where there are ten questions clearly informs them that 
this is an area where further study is required. 

We do not provide candidates with individual questions they missed as this 
would have a strong negative impact on the security of the exam. If we informed 
candidates on individual questions we would have to retire each exam question 
we did so with which would put a huge burden of developing new questions on our 
volunteer exam committee. It would also but a burden on the exam itself as we 
would be continually retiring statically field proven questions.

I know it is disappointing to candidates to not see the questions they missed, 
and if I was a candidate I'd likely be frustrated as well. I also know that it 
is simply not practical to do so and that our procedures are in accordance to 
established and recognized testing protocols. 

Sincerely,

Ezra Auerbach
Executive Director"

eauerb...@nabcep.org

To which I also add to replay to your last post:
You are incorrect that 70 is always the passing grade. It can be a little lower 
or even a little higher depending on the difficulty of that particular test and 
if we have identified any questions which have proved to be unclear or 
ambiguous. It takes time for our testing agency to compile that data. It takes 
time for our test committee to re-evaluate the questions and how they were 
answered. Lastly, each and every Certificant (not Entry Level) testing results 
comes before the Board with the raw information and the recommendations of our 
committee for a final decision and approval of a passing score. We go to great 
lengths to make sure all our testing is as fair and unbiased as possible.
As Ezra points out, it would be HUGELY expensive to have to replace our 
question pool for every test because we revealed the questions which you missed 
to you. Surely you can see that those questions would be widely circulated by 
the time candidates sat for the next test, making them useless.
Bob-O

On Apr 1, 2011, at 5:57 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:

Ezra,

Do you follow guidelines as to the "rights and responsibilities" of test 
takers. Do test takers have a right to see the questions they got wrong?

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[wirewiz]

Ezra,

Do you follow guidelines as to the "rights and responsibilities" of test 
takers. Do test takers have a right to see the questions they got wrong?

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



On Apr 1, 2011, at 1:14 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote:

>  
> This is what Ezra Auerbach, Executive Director of NABCEP, has to say on the 
> matter:
>  
>  
> Hi Nick et al,
> 
> A couple of clarifications. It has always taken a month or more for NABCEP to 
> issue score reports on installer exams. Entry Level results tend to be 
> quicker and this might be a source for confusion.
> 
> I'll do my best to explain the passing score process. There is no set 
> percentage or number of correct answers. Each exam is different from the last 
> and is a mix of "field proven" and new questions. We use professional 
> psychometricians for  exam design and evaluation. They work with the subject 
> matter experts on the exam committee. After each exam they all meet and 
> review the performance of the exam with particular focus on new questions. 
> Sometimes a question performs poorly which is to say a very high percentage 
> of candidates who otherwise did well got it wrong. This sort of item is 
> flagged for committee review. They sometimes decide it was a poor question 
> and choose not to score it which is one reason for variance between exams.
> 
> The Psychometrician uses a well established and accepted statistical review 
> protocol that is designed to ensure consistency across multiple exam 
> administrations. They then present their professional recommendations to the 
> Board for their acceptance. This again is standard procedure for "Board"   
> exams.
> 
> In summary NABCEP follows well established internationally recognized scoring 
> protocols that are fully psychometrically defensible which is part of the 
> reason our PV Installer Certification has received accreditation by ANSI to 
> their 17024 standard for personnel certification. We remain the only PV 
> credentialing body in North America to have been accredited to this standard.
> 
> I hope this helps. To each and every Wrench who is waiting for their exam 
> results-I hope you passed.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ezra 
> 
> 
> Ezra Auerbach
> Executive Director
> NABCEP"
>  
>  
>  
> For a brighter energy future,
> 
> Andrew Truitt
> Principal
> Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
> (202) 486-7507
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713
> 
> <24 copy.jpg>
> 
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to 
> fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor 
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could 
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
> 
> ~William McDonough
> 
> 
> 
>  
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 11:35 AM,  wrote:
> Nick, 
> 
> The passing grade is 70, they don't change that. I think they just wan't to 
> see if any one question was consistently answered wrong and so maybe there 
> was a problem with the question and they may decide that everyone gets that 
> question right. I would guess that rarely happens.
> 
> As far as the six weeks to wait for pass/fail notification, they keep you 
> hangin! 
> 
> They notify you by snail mail, not email. Hint: if the plain brown envelope 
> says "do not bend" on it, pop the champagne, you passed. 
> 
> Larry Liesner
> Wirewiz
> Westport, CT
> Phone: 203-644-2404
> Fax: 203-557-0556
> wire...@gmail.com
> www.wire-wiz.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 31, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Jamie Johnson wrote:
> 
>> That sounds about right, a NABCEP board member told me they meet and vote on 
>> the difficulty of each question.
>> 
>> So 5-7 weeks of wondering if you have what it takes to pass.
>> 
>> When you get the email notification it will say "congratulations" or 
>> something to that effect in the subject line when you pass, not sure what it 
>> says if you don't.
>> 
>> 
>> Jamie Johnson
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
>> 
>> General Manager
>> SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
>> (941) 380 - 0098
>> EC13001765
>> www.SPEFL.com
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:42 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi wrenches:
>>> I sat for the NABCEP exam last weekend, and was surprised yesterday to 
>>> hear that we will not receive the exam results for another month!  I had 
>>> heard that it only took a week.  What was your experience.  Also, the 
>>> e-mail yesterday said that the Board has to decide what grade will be a 
>>> passing grade?  Can that be true?  Does the grade get set to control the 
>>> number who pass or fail?  That doesn't seem right.
>>>  
>>> Nick Soleil
>>> Project Manager
>>> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>>> PO Box 657
>>> Petaluma, CA 94953
>>> Cell: 707-321-2937
>>> Office: 707-789-9537
>>> Fax: 707-769-9037

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp

[Troy Harvey]

Either way both are just tests, and both are just there solely for the 
formality of AHJ.

I've done enough hiring of engineers to be thoroughly unconvinced any testing, 
certification, GPA, degree level makes any indication of level of ability. I 
remember a time a few years back when i hired a 2nd year sophomore over a phD 
candidate - because he was better in every way.

I don't know exactly what the P.E. rate amongst E.E.s is, but is way less than 
1% - and there is a reason. The E.E. field has largely driven by innovation, 
not "putting in you dues". Compounding that problem, since there are so few EE 
PEs, there is a very small chance to get a PE, even if you took your FE exam - 
because there so few to work under.

So I don't see anything about a PE that is so meaningful, just means you 
happened on a 1-in-100 boss out of college that had a PE, and worked for 
him/her for 3 years. 

Meaningless. Only the AHJ cares.


Troy

 Warren Lauzon wrote:

> The difference is that comparing the PE exam to the NABCEP exam is like 
> comparing brain surgeon board certification for a doctor to a first aid 
> course exam.
>  
> PE is not only a professional exam, it also holds legal status in all 50 
> states, whereas the NABCEP exam does not.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp

[dan]

Sorry If I'm off base a bit here. I'm hoping it's sorta related. I was recently asked to meet with a "Staff Architect", to field questions about installing a PV array on a public building. Yes, in all fairness I was deliberately vague about some design specifics (I've lost too many designs to the "Bidding Process").  He did ask about my Credentials and nodded in approval (Or so I thought) when I mentioned NABCEP certification. (I didn't feel I needed to mention any other Degrees or Certifications)..The following is just one of the "Issues" in his 5 page report: B. Electrical Design    1. In concept, the idea of plugging the PV array into the building's electrical system and watching the electric meter run backwards is accurate.  However, this needs to be designed carefully by someone who knows what the electrical characteristics of the PV system will be and who can insure that the connections are made properly, that the power coming from existing building the panels is in sync with the 3 phase power in the building, who can select the appropriate circuit breaker for the circuit being used for the connection and who can think through the rest of the system to make sure that we don't damage some other aspect of the existing electrical system.   2. When I asked if there were any possibility that the power coming from the PV array might damage other electrical devices in the building the answer was "no".  I'd get that in writing.   3. Again, one option would be to return to the original electrical engineer that designed the building and have them engineer the connections of new to old.I guess it's fair to say I'm new to the political end of running a business.. but more and more I see this kind of posturing from the Vultures circling the Renewable Energy Industry. It's even more hurtful when you see this crap from "Professional" Firms.Rant Off.. dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.comNABCEP #092907-44


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp
From: "Warren Lauzon" <war...@wind-sun.com>
Date: Thu, March 31, 2011 2:27 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

 The difference is that comparing the PE exam to the NABCEP exam is like comparing brain surgeon board certification for a doctor to a first aid course exam.   PE is not only a professional exam, it also holds legal status in all 50 states, whereas the NABCEP exam does not.      From: Greg Egan  Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:36 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp   Bill & Peter,Okay, if I have a PE Stamp that means I went to school and worked under a mentor for an amount of time to qualify for the PE exam.  Passed the exam and I got my stamp.  If I have NABCEP certification that means I worked installing solar electric systems (in my case) for an amount of time and /or went to school to qualify for the NABCEP exam and passed the test. I'm having a hard time seeing the difference here.  If NABCEP provided a stamp to it's members that they could use to stamp drawings all it would show is that someone who passed the NABCEP exam reviewed the design and hung his or her name on the job.  I don't see where NABCEP would be responsible for the design anymore than the PE board or whoever is in charge of giving out PE stamps would be culpable in a case of a bad design by a PE.I think NABCEP should provide a stamp with the certificated member's # on it.  All it would do is identify them as a NABCEP member.  My understanding is that NABCEP was formed to help the general public distinguish between fly by nights and real RE professionals.  A stamp would help do that.  If the city of xyz decides that they've seen a lot of good work from NABCEP members and that NABCEP certification is good enough for them, what's wrong with that?Greg EganRemote Power Inc.NABCEP PV Installer   ___



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Peter Parrish]

There may be some confusion here. Bill Brooks is referring to “work” being
done and the original post, unless I am mistaken, referred to “plan
checking”. Aside from the fact that the work being proposed needs to be done
by a duly licensed contractor, the plans may be the product of just about
anyone with or without any credentials. 

The plan checking arm of any AHJ has wide latitude as to who might certify
the conformance of the plans to relevant codes. I have found in my dealings
in Southern California, that the less the plan checker knows, the greater
their insistence on independent review. While this approach makes sense for
large and complex jobs, in other cases it is no more than a convenient
excuse to shield their ignorance. 

I digress. The most blatant example of I have encountered occurred in a town
in Orange County; where the Planning Department refused to approve a “supply
side feed”. I appealed their decision, offering to bring to a meeting my
tabbed NEC 2008 Handbook, articles by experts, and a written opinion by the
chief of Planning of the City of San Diego – to no avail. It turned out they
did offer one way out: if we retained the services of a registered PE – not
just any PE – but one from their “pre-approved list”. Two calls and one hour
later I found out the price for this service was $1,500, and we were taking
about a 4000W inverter and a 100A service panel. We opted for a 200A panel
upgrade, for less than that amount. I consider this an example of a
convenient excuse” and essentially extortion.

Back my main point. I think that my suggestion to use a “NABCEP Certified
Installer” sticker might not be appropriate since the tag at the bottom of
the sticker says “This photovoltaic system was *installed* by a national
Certified Solar PV Installer”. 

I think Ezra's idea of attaching a business card with the appropriate NABCEP
Certified Installer logo, the installers name and certification number -- is
a great one.

One final shot: I think that the NABCEP Certification is amply and openly
documented. If an informed AHJ feels comfortable dealing with someone so
certified, that's their prerogative, and theirs alone.

- Peter

 
Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:11 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

Andrew and Troy,

While I can’t speak for NABCEP, I would expect that NABCEP should be very
opposed to this type of use of their logo. NABCEP does not certify the work
that a NABCEP certificant does. They only certify that the installer has met
the obligations for certification. There is a HUGE difference between the
two. NABCEP cannot, and should not, be held accountable for work that
someone does in the field. A contactor’s work is covered by the state laws
and the licenses required to perform that work in that state. 

Just because a local jurisdictions thinks that getting a certification from
NABCEP means something to the installation, does not mean that the
information should be on the plan set. Information about the certification
of the installer should be provided separately. 

Don’t make a stamp, whatever you do.

Bill.

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
Truitt
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:57 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

Troy - I have not encountered this before but would you mind sharing what
city agency you are refering to?  NABCEP is always interested in hearing
about these types of "unconventional" uses of the certification.
 
 


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp

[Joel Davidson]

Greg,

I think some states require designers to have a professional engineering 
license. I know some clients require a licensed engineer with professional 
liability insurance.

You can be rightly proud of your NABCEP certification. It is good that NABCEP 
supports the practitioner concept and encourages life-long learning, but Bill 
Brooks is right. What out for slippery slopes.

Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: Greg Egan 
  To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
  Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:36 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp


  Bill & Peter,

  Okay, if I have a PE Stamp that means I went to school and worked under a 
mentor for an amount of time to qualify for the PE exam.  Passed the exam and I 
got my stamp.  

  If I have NABCEP certification that means I worked installing solar electric 
systems (in my case) for an amount of time and /or went to school to qualify 
for the NABCEP exam and passed the test. 

  I'm having a hard time seeing the difference here.  If NABCEP provided a 
stamp to it's members that they could use to stamp drawings all it would show 
is that someone who passed the NABCEP exam reviewed the design and hung his or 
her name on the job.  I don't see where NABCEP would be responsible for the 
design anymore than the PE board or whoever is in charge of giving out PE 
stamps would be culpable in a case of a bad design by a PE.

  I think NABCEP should provide a stamp with the certificated member's # on it. 
 All it would do is identify them as a NABCEP member.  My understanding is that 
NABCEP was formed to help the general public distinguish between fly by nights 
and real RE professionals.  A stamp would help do that.  If the city of xyz 
decides that they've seen a lot of good work from NABCEP members and that 
NABCEP certification is good enough for them, what's wrong with that?

  Greg Egan
  Remote Power Inc.
  NABCEP PV Installer



--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp

[Warren Lauzon]

The difference is that comparing the PE exam to the NABCEP exam is like 
comparing brain surgeon board certification for a doctor to a first aid course 
exam.

PE is not only a professional exam, it also holds legal status in all 50 
states, whereas the NABCEP exam does not.

From: Greg Egan 
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:36 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp

Bill & Peter,

Okay, if I have a PE Stamp that means I went to school and worked under a 
mentor for an amount of time to qualify for the PE exam.  Passed the exam and I 
got my stamp.  

If I have NABCEP certification that means I worked installing solar electric 
systems (in my case) for an amount of time and /or went to school to qualify 
for the NABCEP exam and passed the test. 

I'm having a hard time seeing the difference here.  If NABCEP provided a stamp 
to it's members that they could use to stamp drawings all it would show is that 
someone who passed the NABCEP exam reviewed the design and hung his or her name 
on the job.  I don't see where NABCEP would be responsible for the design 
anymore than the PE board or whoever is in charge of giving out PE stamps would 
be culpable in a case of a bad design by a PE.

I think NABCEP should provide a stamp with the certificated member's # on it.  
All it would do is identify them as a NABCEP member.  My understanding is that 
NABCEP was formed to help the general public distinguish between fly by nights 
and real RE professionals.  A stamp would help do that.  If the city of xyz 
decides that they've seen a lot of good work from NABCEP members and that 
NABCEP certification is good enough for them, what's wrong with that?

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
NABCEP PV Installer




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979

Online Solar Store
Free Solar Discussion Forum

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[wirewiz]

Nick, 

The passing grade is 70, they don't change that. I think they just wan't to see 
if any one question was consistently answered wrong and so maybe there was a 
problem with the question and they may decide that everyone gets that question 
right. I would guess that rarely happens.

As far as the six weeks to wait for pass/fail notification, they keep you 
hangin! 

They notify you by snail mail, not email. Hint: if the plain brown envelope 
says "do not bend" on it, pop the champagne, you passed. 

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



On Mar 31, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Jamie Johnson wrote:

> That sounds about right, a NABCEP board member told me they meet and vote on 
> the difficulty of each question.
> 
> So 5-7 weeks of wondering if you have what it takes to pass.
> 
> When you get the email notification it will say "congratulations" or 
> something to that effect in the subject line when you pass, not sure what it 
> says if you don't.
> 
> 
> Jamie Johnson
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
> 
> General Manager
> SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
> (941) 380 - 0098
> EC13001765
> www.SPEFL.com
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:42 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:
> 
>> Hi wrenches:
>> I sat for the NABCEP exam last weekend, and was surprised yesterday to 
>> hear that we will not receive the exam results for another month!  I had 
>> heard that it only took a week.  What was your experience.  Also, the e-mail 
>> yesterday said that the Board has to decide what grade will be a passing 
>> grade?  Can that be true?  Does the grade get set to control the number who 
>> pass or fail?  That doesn't seem right.
>>  
>> Nick Soleil
>> Project Manager
>> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
>> PO Box 657
>> Petaluma, CA 94953
>> Cell: 707-321-2937
>> Office: 707-789-9537
>> Fax: 707-769-9037
>> 
>> 
>> From: Hans Frederickson 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 8:15:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>> 
>> We used an OZ-Gedney expansion coupling for 1-1/4" EMT on a recent job. The 
>> part # is TX-125 for 1-1/4", and it would be TX-150 for 1-1/2". It is the 
>> same as the OZ-Gedney AX expansion coupling for rigid conduit, but uses a 
>> rigid nipple and EMT connectors to adapt to EMT. The assembly is UL listed.
>>  
>> -Hans
>>  
>> 
>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Erika 
>> Weliczko
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:54 PM
>> To: 'RE-wrenches'
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>> 
>> I recently used a Hubbell Killark product for rigid/IMC and was not happy 
>> with how the threads of the coupling engaged in factory conduit threads.
>>  
>> Crousehinds XJG-EMT series is intended for EMT. And is described as being 
>> used indoors or outdoors. The EMT couplings mostly seem to be compression.
>>  
>>  
>> REpower SOLUTIONS
>> www.repowersolutions.com
>> P: 216.268.2275
>> C: 216.402.4458
>>  
>> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Johnson
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:33 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>>  
>> Peter,
>>  
>> Cooper makes one for 1.5" emt, not sure if it is rated for wet locations or 
>> not.
>>  
>> part #XJG54 EMT, it allows for up to 4" max of conduit movement.
>>  
>> Jamie Johnson
>> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>>  
>> General Manager
>> SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>  
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>> From: "Peter Parrish" ;
>> Date: Tue, March 29, 2011 1:04 pm
>> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
>> 
>> Does anyone have information (manu and part number) for expansion joints
>> for
>> 1-1/2 EMT? I have also heard that many EJs are designed for rigid conduit
>> (RMC) and may not be directly applicable to EMT.
>> 
>> - Peter
>> 
>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
>> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
>> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
>> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
>> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
>> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Options & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Jamie Johnson]

That sounds about right, a NABCEP board member told me they meet and vote on 
the difficulty of each question.

So 5-7 weeks of wondering if you have what it takes to pass.

When you get the email notification it will say "congratulations" or something 
to that effect in the subject line when you pass, not sure what it says if you 
don't.


Jamie Johnson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional

General Manager
SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
(941) 380 - 0098
EC13001765
www.SPEFL.com

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 31, 2011, at 11:42 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:

> Hi wrenches:
> I sat for the NABCEP exam last weekend, and was surprised yesterday to 
> hear that we will not receive the exam results for another month!  I had 
> heard that it only took a week.  What was your experience.  Also, the e-mail 
> yesterday said that the Board has to decide what grade will be a passing 
> grade?  Can that be true?  Does the grade get set to control the number who 
> pass or fail?  That doesn't seem right.
>  
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manager
> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
> PO Box 657
> Petaluma, CA 94953
> Cell: 707-321-2937
> Office: 707-789-9537
> Fax: 707-769-9037
> 
> 
> From: Hans Frederickson 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 8:15:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
> 
> We used an OZ-Gedney expansion coupling for 1-1/4" EMT on a recent job. The 
> part # is TX-125 for 1-1/4", and it would be TX-150 for 1-1/2". It is the 
> same as the OZ-Gedney AX expansion coupling for rigid conduit, but uses a 
> rigid nipple and EMT connectors to adapt to EMT. The assembly is UL listed.
>  
> -Hans
>  
> 
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Erika Weliczko
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:54 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
> 
> I recently used a Hubbell Killark product for rigid/IMC and was not happy 
> with how the threads of the coupling engaged in factory conduit threads.
>  
> Crousehinds XJG-EMT series is intended for EMT. And is described as being 
> used indoors or outdoors. The EMT couplings mostly seem to be compression.
>  
>  
> REpower SOLUTIONS
> www.repowersolutions.com
> P: 216.268.2275
> C: 216.402.4458
>  
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:33 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [SPAM] Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>  
> Peter,
>  
> Cooper makes one for 1.5" emt, not sure if it is rated for wet locations or 
> not.
>  
> part #XJG54 EMT, it allows for up to 4" max of conduit movement.
>  
> Jamie Johnson
> NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
>  
> General Manager
> SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  
>  Original Message 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
> From: "Peter Parrish" ;
> Date: Tue, March 29, 2011 1:04 pm
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> 
> Does anyone have information (manu and part number) for expansion joints for
> 1-1/2 EMT? I have also heard that many EJs are designed for rigid conduit
> (RMC) and may not be directly applicable to EMT.
> 
> - Peter
> 
> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Mike Cook]

It took 7 weeks to get my results.

 

Mike Cook

m...@powerupco.com

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 11:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

 

Hi wrenches:
I sat for the NABCEP exam last weekend, and was surprised yesterday to
hear that we will not receive the exam results for another month!  I had
heard that it only took a week.  What was your experience.  Also, the e-mail
yesterday said that the Board has to decide what grade will be a passing
grade?  Can that be true?  Does the grade get set to control the number who
pass or fail?  That doesn't seem right.

 

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037

 

 

  _  

From: Hans Frederickson 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 8:15:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints




We used an OZ-Gedney expansion coupling for 1-1/4" EMT on a recent job. The
part # is TX-125 for 1-1/4", and it would be TX-150 for 1-1/2". It is the
same as the OZ-Gedney AX expansion coupling for rigid conduit, but uses a
rigid nipple and EMT connectors to adapt to EMT. The assembly is UL listed.

 

-Hans

 

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Erika
Weliczko
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:54 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints

I recently used a Hubbell Killark product for rigid/IMC and was not happy
with how the threads of the coupling engaged in factory conduit threads.

 

Crousehinds XJG-EMT series is intended for EMT. And is described as being
used indoors or outdoors. The EMT couplings mostly seem to be compression.

 

 

REpower SOLUTIONS

www.repowersolutions.com

P: 216.268.2275

C: 216.402.4458

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie
Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:33 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints

 

Peter,

 

Cooper makes one for 1.5" emt, not sure if it is rated for wet locations or
not.

 

part #XJG54 EMT, it allows for up to 4" max of conduit movement.

 

Jamie Johnson

NABCEP Certified PV Technical Sales Professional

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer

 

General Manager

SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC

 

Error! Filename not specified.

 

 

 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
From: "Peter Parrish" http://peter.parr...@calsolareng.com%3e> >;
Date: Tue, March 29, 2011 1:04 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" 

Does anyone have information (manu and part number) for expansion joints for
1-1/2 EMT? I have also heard that many EJs are designed for rigid conduit
(RMC) and may not be directly applicable to EMT.

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

___



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Test

[Nick Soleil]

Hi wrenches:
I sat for the NABCEP exam last weekend, and was surprised yesterday to hear 
that we will not receive the exam results for another month!  I had heard that 
it only took a week.  What was your experience.  Also, the e-mail yesterday 
said 
that the Board has to decide what grade will be a passing grade?  Can that be 
true?  Does the grade get set to control the number who pass or fail?  That 
doesn't seem right.

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: Hans Frederickson 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 8:15:19 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints

  
We used an OZ-Gedney expansion coupling for  1-1/4" EMT on a recent job. The 
part # is TX-125 for 1-1/4", and it would be  TX-150 for 1-1/2". It is the same 
as the OZ-Gedney AX expansion coupling for  rigid conduit, but uses a rigid 
nipple and EMT connectors to adapt to  EMT. The assembly is UL listed.
 
-Hans
 



 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org  
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Erika  Weliczko
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:54 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion  joints


I  recently used a Hubbell Killark product for rigid/IMC and was not happy with 
how the threads of the coupling engaged in factory conduit  threads.
 
Crousehinds  XJG-EMT series is intended for EMT. And is described as being used 
indoors or  outdoors. The EMT couplings mostly seem to be compression.
 
 
REpower  SOLUTIONS
www.repowersolutions.com
P:  216.268.2275
C:  216.402.4458
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org  
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jamie  Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:33 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [RE-wrenches] Expansion  joints
 
Peter,
 
Cooper  makes one for 1.5" emt, not sure if it is rated for wet locations or  
not.
 
part  #XJG54 EMT, it allows for up to 4" max of conduit  movement.
 
Jamie  Johnson
NABCEP  Certified PV Technical Sales Professional
NABCEP  Certified Solar PV Installer
 
General  Manager
SOLAR  POWER ELECTRIC


 
 
 
Original Message 
>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Expansion joints
>From:"Peter Parrish" ;
>Date:Tue, March 29, 2011 1:04 pm
>To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
>
>Doesanyone have information (manu and part number) for expansion joints
>for
>1-1/2 EMT? I have also heard that many EJs are designed for rigidconduit
>(RMC) and may not be directly applicable to EMT.
>
>-Peter
>
>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
>California SolarEngineering, Inc.
>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
>CA Lic.854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
>peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 
>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax323-258-8885
>
>___
>Listsponsored by Home Power magazine
>
>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>Options& settings:
>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
>Listrules & etiquette:
>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
>Checkout participant bios:
>www.members.re-wrenches.org___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Peter Parrish]

Back in '06 I got a nifty roll of stickers that I think were meant to be put
inverters. But we put so much (doubtless important) signage on our systems,
I stopped using them. Maybe they might be used on plans.

- Peter

 
 Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Troy Harvey
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

I am wondering if anyone has had a NABCEP stamp made to stamp plans. I have
a city agency who is comfortable with the NABCEP certification as a
qualification, but would like to see a stamp. Has anyone out there done
this? 

Troy

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Bill Brooks]

Andrew and Troy,

 

While I can't speak for NABCEP, I would expect that NABCEP should be very
opposed to this type of use of their logo. NABCEP does not certify the work
that a NABCEP certificant does. They only certify that the installer has met
the obligations for certification. There is a HUGE difference between the
two. NABCEP cannot, and should not, be held accountable for work that
someone does in the field. A contactor's work is covered by the state laws
and the licenses required to perform that work in that state. 

 

Just because a local jurisdictions thinks that getting a certification from
NABCEP means something to the installation, does not mean that the
information should be on the plan set. Information about the certification
of the installer should be provided separately. 

 

Don't make a stamp, whatever you do.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
Truitt
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:57 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

 

Troy - I have not encountered this before but would you mind sharing what
city agency you are refering to?  NABCEP is always interested in hearing
about these types of "unconventional" uses of the certification.

 

 

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Erika Weliczko]

I hate to mention the evil insurance industry. However, a stamp implies some
professional liability insurance to me.

There are other professional membership organizations (RESNET) that have
developed a tailored professional liability insurance package for its
credentialed members with a preferred vendor.
Is NABCEP looking toward this? I do not know if there is a need, but may be
an advantage under certain circumstances.

Peace,
Erika

REpower SOLUTIONS
www.repowersolutions.com
P: 216.268.2275
C: 216.402.4458

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 5:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [SPAM] Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

Troy,
On Mar 30, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Troy Harvey wrote:

I am wondering if anyone has had a NABCEP stamp made to stamp plans. I have
a city agency who is comfortable with the NABCEP certification as a
qualification, but would like to see a stamp. Has anyone out there done
this? 

Troy
I'm with Andrew here. If a NABCEP stamp of some kind makes the city happy
and greases your permit approval, that's OK. If it is a city requirement,
then we'd sure like to know about that. IF you do have one made, please
remember to follow the NABCEP guidelines as to the use of our "Mark". IE,
your name -not the company name and not nothing- has to appear next to the
Mark.
Cheers, bob-O

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Bob-O Schultze]

Troy,
On Mar 30, 2011, at 10:04 AM, Troy Harvey wrote:

I am wondering if anyone has had a NABCEP stamp made to stamp plans. I have a 
city agency who is comfortable with the NABCEP certification as a 
qualification, but would like to see a stamp. Has anyone out there done this? 

Troy
I'm with Andrew here. If a NABCEP stamp of some kind makes the city happy and 
greases your permit approval, that's OK. If it is a city requirement, then we'd 
sure like to know about that. IF you do have one made, please remember to 
follow the NABCEP guidelines as to the use of our "Mark". IE, your name -not 
the company name and not nothing- has to appear next to the Mark.
Cheers, bob-O

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[Andrew Truitt]

Troy - I have not encountered this before but would you mind sharing what
city agency you are refering to?  NABCEP is always interested in hearing
about these types of "unconventional" uses of the certification.


For a brighter energy future,

Andrew Truitt
Principal
Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting
NABCEP Certified PV Installer™ (ID# 032407-66)
(202) 486-7507
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713

[image: 24 copy.jpg]

"Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"

~William McDonough




On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Troy Harvey wrote:

> I am wondering if anyone has had a NABCEP stamp made to stamp plans. I have
> a city agency who is comfortable with the NABCEP certification as a
> qualification, but would like to see a stamp. Has anyone out there done
> this?
>
> Troy
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
<<24 copy.jpg>>___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[David Brearley]

The lesson here might be: Use the right tool for the job.

NABCEP probably limits battery-based system questions to 5% of its test
questions these days. The test reflects the market. You can totally pass the
test without battery-based system knowledge; it helps if you have it, of
course, but most PV system installers these days don¹t. Let¹s be honest. The
experience on this listserve is not representative of the market at large.
Off-grid system integration is so specialized that hiring Larry the
Wirewiz‹who has worked installing stand-alone power systems on boats for 30
years‹probably makes more sense in this case than hiring a NABCEP Certified
Master Electrician, especially if the company they work for does grid-tied
work as a rule. 

My personal opinion is that voluntary NABCEP Certification is so much
better, especially for experienced PV professionals, than the other options.
I¹m glad the people within the industry took the initiative to try and set
some sort of benchmark or standard for solar installers. Without it, the
only benchmark is state licensing, which in many cases doesn¹t provide solar
installers with a specialized track. The NABCEP test isn¹t perfect‹big
surprise‹but let¹s be realistic about the limits of any multiple choice
test. As far as NABCEP hurting anyone¹s business, that seems like a stretch
to me. Customer¹s don¹t know what NABCEP is. It¹s unlikely that it will be
adopted as some sort of national licensing standard.

The same cannot be said for UL or the UL Certification for PV installers,
which I suspect is a much more likely to marginalize experienced, veteran
solar installers than NABCEP is. When I look into my crystal ball, I see
solar bozos, NABCEP certified or not, competing against UL Certified PV
Installation Companies, that are all licensed electrical contractors, likely
new to solar. Off-grid systems is one of the few places where I see solar
bozos coming out ahead in that competition. Everyone recognizes UL, even if
they don¹t know what it means or does.

If you don¹t want to be NABCEP Certified, don¹t take the test. But I don¹t
see where bashing an organization that is trying to do something to
legitimize or mainstream this industry deserves any contempt either.

This is just my opinion and not the opinion of my esteemed employer. And I¹m
not trying to offend anyone, either. I just see a lot of wrinkles to this.

Sorry for the rant,

David Brearley

On 2/8/11 2:04 PM, "hol...@sbcglobal.net"  wrote:

>  
> My electrician was out of pocket, so I hired a master electrician with NABCEP
> citification from a highly reputable company to complete a battery based
> system for me with the expectation that he would:
> 1) verify that my initial design would be to code and within proper operating
> parameters
> 2)  change any components that did not satisfy his interpretation of code and
> make recommendations to any performance issues
> 3) communicate these changes to me so that I could have specified components
> on site upon his arrival or in a timely manner so that the job may be
> completed within the time frame allotted
> 4) verify all components were installed to either initial or modified specs
> and to code
> 5) turn on system to verify all components were operating properly
>  
> What I got was:
> * Array wired incorrectly -  he had written instructions. 20 modules to  be 5
> strings of 4, he wired array 4 strings of 5...the CC's front end  mosfets
> appear to be fried due to overvoltage
> * ground conductor not run to combiner at array
> * "make do" fittings at combiner - they were "job-site adjusted" - not  liquid
> tite 
> * battery cable not run to shunt
> * grounding not completed at power shed (system was turned on without this
> being done) 
> * improper grounding at house sub-panel
> * Mate plugged into inverter port 3 at Hub
> * No twisted pair run from CC to shunt
> * many times that I arrived on site there was much looking around in the
> trailer to find "something that would work" a "certified" guy should know
> what is on the trailer and that it's properly inventoried before it  goes to
> site...
> I didn't need to pass a test to find these errors that have cost me a pretty
> big chunk of moneywe all have bad days, but, come on, man.
>  
> Conclusionsome people are good at passing tests, but not so good in the
> field. 
>  
>  
> sent anonymously as possible to protect the innocent
>>  
>> - Original Message -----
>>  
>> From:  Dana <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>
>>  
>> To: 'RE-wrenches' <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>>  
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:46  AM
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP  marketing
>>  
>> 
>>  
>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[holtek]

My electrician was out of pocket, so I hired a master electrician with NABCEP 
citification from a highly reputable company to complete a battery based system 
for me with the expectation that he would:
1) verify that my initial design would be to code and within proper operating 
parameters
2)  change any components that did not satisfy his interpretation of code and 
make recommendations to any performance issues
3) communicate these changes to me so that I could have specified components on 
site upon his arrival or in a timely manner so that the job may be completed 
within the time frame allotted
4) verify all components were installed to either initial or modified specs and 
to code
5) turn on system to verify all components were operating properly 

What I got was:
  a.. Array wired incorrectly -  he had written instructions. 20 modules to be 
5 strings of 4, he wired array 4 strings of 5...the CC's front end mosfets 
appear to be fried due to overvoltage
  b.. ground conductor not run to combiner at array
  c.. "make do" fittings at combiner - they were "job-site adjusted" - not 
liquid tite
  d.. battery cable not run to shunt
  e.. grounding not completed at power shed (system was turned on without this 
being done)
  f.. improper grounding at house sub-panel
  g.. Mate plugged into inverter port 3 at Hub
  h.. No twisted pair run from CC to shunt
  i.. many times that I arrived on site there was much looking around in the 
trailer to find "something that would work" a "certified" guy should know 
what is on the trailer and that it's properly inventoried before it goes to 
site...
I didn't need to pass a test to find these errors that have cost me a pretty 
big chunk of moneywe all have bad days, but, come on, man.

Conclusionsome people are good at passing tests, but not so good in the 
field. 


sent anonymously as possible to protect the innocent
  - Original Message - 
  From: Dana 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing


  The questions that are presented on the Nabcep “Problem” solving are short on 
realistic info and designed to really be multiple guess. Does this really 
qualify folks for the real world or just real guessing.

   

  Dana Orzel

  Great Solar Works, Inc

  E - d...@solarwork.com

  V - 970.626.5253

  F - 970.626.4140

  C - 970.209.4076

  web - www.solarwork.com

   

  "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

  Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.

   

  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon
  Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 8:46 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

   

  From what I see, NABCEP is heavily hardware oriented, with only a smidgen of 
actual problem solving and/or theory. It totally falls apart with battery based 
systems, generally way undersizing them.

   

  The actual electrical knowledge required is minimal except for code and 
wiring/hardware issues. Being certified will not make you capable of much – if 
any – real troubleshooting.

   

   

  From: Nick Soleil 

  Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:16 PM

  To: RE-wrenches 

  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

   

  To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV systems. 
 1 of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can be on your 
brothers house.  All that NABCEP Certified means is that I studied a list of 
questions, and then passed the test.  It is good to know that a handrailing 
should be 39"-45" tall, and not 36"-42."  However, that should not come with 
any title, like 'Certified PV Installer.' 
   The experience requirements should be more stringent.  If it required 
some real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many 
participants as possible, so anyone can sit for it.

 

  Nick Soleil
  Project Manager
  Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
  PO Box 657
  Petaluma, CA 94953
  Cell: 707-321-2937
  Office: 707-789-9537
  Fax: 707-769-9037 

   

   


----------

  From: Dave Palumbo 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing




  Larry,

   

  It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing 
these days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my 
opinion). NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment 
brought some good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some good 
things in your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on the 
first take. 

   

  David Palumbo

  Independent Power LLC 

  462 Solar Way Drive

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[Dana]

The questions that are presented on the Nabcep “Problem” solving are short on 
realistic info and designed to really be multiple guess. Does this really 
qualify folks for the real world or just real guessing.

 

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

web - www.solarwork.com

 

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 8:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

 

>From what I see, NABCEP is heavily hardware oriented, with only a smidgen of 
>actual problem solving and/or theory. It totally falls apart with battery 
>based systems, generally way undersizing them.

 

The actual electrical knowledge required is minimal except for code and 
wiring/hardware issues. Being certified will not make you capable of much – if 
any – real troubleshooting.

 

 

From: Nick Soleil <mailto:nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com>  

Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:16 PM

To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

 

To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV systems.  
1 of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can be on your 
brothers house.  All that NABCEP Certified means is that I studied a list of 
questions, and then passed the test.  It is good to know that a handrailing 
should be 39"-45" tall, and not 36"-42."  However, that should not come with 
any title, like 'Certified PV Installer.' 
 The experience requirements should be more stringent.  If it required some 
real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many participants 
as possible, so anyone can sit for it.

   

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 

 

 

  _  

From: Dave Palumbo 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing




Larry,

 

It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing these 
days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my opinion). 
NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment brought some 
good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some good things in 
your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on the first take. 

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

 

I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, 
so I have that. 

 

I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I 
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time.

 

I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking 
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have 
to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats 
for 30 years.

 

I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a 
competitive person and the ad ticked me off.

 

Larry Liesner

Wirewiz

Westport, CT

Phone: 203-644-2404

Fax: 203-557-0556

wire...@gmail.com

www.wire-wiz.com

 

 

 

On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:

 

Larry

 

My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a 
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time energy 
and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way with 
NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and stress to 
get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the time and effort 
to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and effort, it is good 
to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that away from me, because 
you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a break!  You have the 
right to run your business and promote it as you see fit and so do I!  Does any 
qualification mean that you know everything, of course not.  If any one of us 
think that, then we should get out of the business.  Cause guess what, we are 
in a rapidly changing landscape where we all are continu

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[August Goers]

Hi All -

Good discussion indeed and always controversial with differing opinions. I
am dual-NABCEP certified for PV and thermal and I'm happy that I've gone
through the process. I don't think that being certified has brought on much
additional work for our business and most residential customers don't have a
clue about NABCEP nor do they really care. Certainly quality of work and
design may or may not have anything to do with certification.  I sort of
think of NABCEP as something that is good for yourself. It's just another
feather in your cap. Studying for the test(s) and thinking thoroughly
through what we do every day a good thing to do. Bottom line. If you choose
not to get certified that is fine and it probably won't cost you much work.
If you don't have as much work as you would like, which is probably like
most of us, then you have to decide whether it is worth it or not to try to
get certified. I've seen a lot of shotty work and have to agree with most
wrenches that the work was most likely done by non NABCEP people. But you
never know. Best, August

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Warren Lauzon  wrote:

>   From what I see, NABCEP is heavily hardware oriented, with only a
> smidgen of actual problem solving and/or theory. It totally falls apart with
> battery based systems, generally way undersizing them.
>
> The actual electrical knowledge required is minimal except for code and
> wiring/hardware issues. Being certified will not make you capable of much –
> if any – real troubleshooting.
>
>
>  *From:* Nick Soleil 
> *Sent:* Monday, February 07, 2011 2:16 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing
>
>  To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV
> systems.  1 of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can
> be on your brothers house.  All that NABCEP Certified means is that I
> studied a list of questions, and then passed the test.  It is good to know
> that a handrailing should be 39"-45" tall, and not 36"-42."  However, that
> should not come with any title, like 'Certified PV Installer.'
>  The experience requirements should be more stringent.  If it required
> some real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many
> participants as possible, so anyone can sit for it.
>
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manager
> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
> PO Box 657
> Petaluma, CA 94953
> Cell: 707-321-2937
> Office: 707-789-9537
> Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
>  --
> *From:* Dave Palumbo 
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing
>
>  Larry,
>
>
>
> It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing
> these days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my
> opinion). NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment
> brought some good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some
> good things in your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on
> the first take.
>
>
>
> David Palumbo
>
> Independent Power LLC
>
> 462 Solar Way Drive
>
> Hyde Park, VT 05655**
>
> *www.independentpowerllc.com *
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer
>
> Vermont Solar Partner
>
> 23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *
> wire...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!
>
>
>
> I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level
> exam, so I have that.
>
>
>
> I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I
> failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this
> time.
>
>
>
> I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking
> tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't
> have to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on
> boats for 30 years.
>
>
>
> I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a
> competitive person and the ad ticked me off.
>
>
>
> Larry Liesner
>
> Wirewiz
>
> Westport, CT
>
> Phone: 203-644-2404
>
> Fax: 203-557-0556
>
> wire...@gmail.com
>
> www.wire-wiz.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:
>
>
>
>  Larry
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[Warren Lauzon]

>From what I see, NABCEP is heavily hardware oriented, with only a smidgen of 
>actual problem solving and/or theory. It totally falls apart with battery 
>based systems, generally way undersizing them.

The actual electrical knowledge required is minimal except for code and 
wiring/hardware issues. Being certified will not make you capable of much – if 
any – real troubleshooting.


From: Nick Soleil 
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV systems.  
1 of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can be on your 
brothers house.  All that NABCEP Certified means is that I studied a list of 
questions, and then passed the test.  It is good to know that a handrailing 
should be 39"-45" tall, and not 36"-42."  However, that should not come with 
any title, like 'Certified PV Installer.' 
 The experience requirements should be more stringent.  If it required some 
real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many participants 
as possible, so anyone can sit for it.

   

Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 




From: Dave Palumbo 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing


Larry,



It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing these 
days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my opinion). 
NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment brought some 
good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some good things in 
your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on the first take. 



David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 







From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!



I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, 
so I have that. 



I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I 
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time.



I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking 
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have 
to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats 
for 30 years.



I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a 
competitive person and the ad ticked me off.



Larry Liesner

Wirewiz

Westport, CT

Phone: 203-644-2404

Fax: 203-557-0556

wire...@gmail.com

www.wire-wiz.com







On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:





Larry



My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a 
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time energy 
and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way with 
NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and stress to 
get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the time and effort 
to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and effort, it is good 
to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that away from me, because 
you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a break!  You have the 
right to run your business and promote it as you see fit and so do I!  Does any 
qualification mean that you know everything, of course not.  If any one of us 
think that, then we should get out of the business.  Cause guess what, we are 
in a rapidly changing landscape where we all are continually learning more and 
growing as an industry.  Otherwise there would not be much use in this blog at 
all.  All an exam really means is that you took the time, energy and stress to 
prepare for and take the exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is 
about time our industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all 
have the opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be. 
 I applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the 
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can do 
without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being unfair 
that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this industry!

Bill

-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Cer

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Larry,

Thanks for your hard dollar numbers (beyond the $400 fee, for one NABCEP test). 

If you look back in the Wrench archives, the willingness of NABCEP to take 
their exam to the users was also discussed. I can remember one very specific 
example where the user was told the exam would be scheduled in their 
neighborhood and once the fee was paid, the user also had massive travel 
expenses. 

Caveat Emptor.

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar

PS   You might take heart that there are some very, very knowledgeable, first 
class installers on this RE-wrenches List who have expressed their non interest 
in NABCEP for a variety of reasons. 




  - Original Message - 
  From: wire...@gmail.com 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 10:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!


  I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, 
so I have that.  


  I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I 
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time.


  I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking 
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have 
to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats 
for 30 years.


  I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a 
competitive person and the ad ticked me off.


  Larry Liesner
  Wirewiz
  Westport, CT
  Phone: 203-644-2404
  Fax: 203-557-0556
  wire...@gmail.com
  www.wire-wiz.com






  On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:


Larry

My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a 
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time energy 
and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way with 
NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and stress to 
get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the time and effort 
to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and effort, it is good 
to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that away from me, because 
you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a break!  You have the 
right to run your business and promote it as you see fit and so do I!  Does any 
qualification mean that you know everything, of course not.  If any one of us 
think that, then we should get out of the business.  Cause guess what, we are 
in a rapidly changing landscape where we all are continually learning more and 
growing as an industry.  Otherwise there would not be much use in this blog at 
all.  All an exam really means is that you took the time, energy and stress to 
prepare for and take the exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is 
about time our industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all 
have the opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be. 
 I applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the 
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can do 
without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being unfair 
that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this industry!

Bill
-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
Cell(509)679-6165


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org






--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiq

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[Nick Soleil]

To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV systems.  
1 
of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can be on your 
brothers house.  All that NABCEP Certified means is that I studied a list of 
questions, and then passed the test.  It is good to know that a handrailing 
should be 39"-45" tall, and not 36"-42."  However, that should not come with 
any 
title, like 'Certified PV Installer.' 

 The experience requirements should be more stringent.  If it required some 
real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many participants 
as possible, so anyone can sit for it.

   
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell:   707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax:707-769-9037





From: Dave Palumbo 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing


Larry,
 
It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing these 
days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my opinion). 
NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment brought some 
good 
discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some good things in your 
business. Many professionals have not passed the test on the first take. 

 
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC 
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
www.independentpowerllc.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Vermont Solar Partner
23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
 
 
 
From:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!
 
I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, 
so 
I have that. 
 
I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I 
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time.
 
I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking 
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have 
to 
rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats for 
30 years.
 
I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a 
competitive 
person and the ad ticked me off.
 
Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com
 
 
 
On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:


Larry
 
My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a 
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time energy 
and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way with 
NABCEP, 
I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and stress to get the 
qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the time and effort to 
promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and effort, it is good to 
get some tangible payback, and you want to take that away from me, because you 
do not have the time to take the exam...give me a break!  You have the right to 
run your business and promote it as you see fit and so do I!  Does any 
qualification mean that you know everything, of course not.  If any one of us 
think that, then we should get out of the business.  Cause guess what, we are 
in 
a rapidly changing landscape where we all are continually learning more and 
growing as an industry.  Otherwise there would not be much use in this blog at 
all.  All an exam really means is that you took the time, energy and stress to 
prepare for and take the exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is 
about time our industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all 
have the opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be. 
 
I applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the 
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can do 
without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being unfair 
that 
we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this industry!

Bill
-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
Cell(509)679-6165
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.memb

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing

[Dave Palumbo]

Larry,

 

It's easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone's marketing
these days. It's OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my
opinion). NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment
brought some good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some
good things in your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on
the first take. 

 

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC 

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

www.independentpowerllc.com 

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Vermont Solar Partner

23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
wire...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

 

I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level
exam, so I have that. 

 

I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this
time.

 

I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't
have to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on
boats for 30 years.

 

I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a
competitive person and the ad ticked me off.

 

Larry Liesner

Wirewiz

Westport, CT

Phone: 203-644-2404

Fax: 203-557-0556

wire...@gmail.com

www.wire-wiz.com

 

 

 

On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:





Larry

 

My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time
energy and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way
with NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and
stress to get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the
time and effort to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and
effort, it is good to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that
away from me, because you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a
break!  You have the right to run your business and promote it as you see
fit and so do I!  Does any qualification mean that you know everything, of
course not.  If any one of us think that, then we should get out of the
business.  Cause guess what, we are in a rapidly changing landscape where we
all are continually learning more and growing as an industry.  Otherwise
there would not be much use in this blog at all.  All an exam really means
is that you took the time, energy and stress to prepare for and take the
exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is about time our
industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all have the
opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be.  I
applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can
do without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being
unfair that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this
industry!

Bill

-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
Cell(509)679-6165

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

[wirewiz]

I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, 
so I have that. 

I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I 
failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time.

I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking 
tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have 
to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats 
for 30 years.

I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a 
competitive person and the ad ticked me off.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote:

> Larry
>  
> My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a 
> considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time 
> energy and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way 
> with NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and 
> stress to get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the 
> time and effort to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and 
> effort, it is good to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that 
> away from me, because you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a 
> break!  You have the right to run your business and promote it as you see fit 
> and so do I!  Does any qualification mean that you know everything, of course 
> not.  If any one of us think that, then we should get out of the business.  
> Cause guess what, we are in a rapidly changing landscape where we all are 
> continually learning more and growing as an industry.  Otherwise there would 
> not be much use in this blog at all.  All an exam really means is that you 
> took the time, energy and stress to prepare for and take the exam, which to 
> me is a sign of professionalism.  It is about time our industry grows up!  Is 
> NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all have the opportunity to help to 
> make this organization the best that it can be.  I applaud the pioneers who 
> had the vision and that were willing to invest the considerable amount of 
> time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can do without it , more 
> power to you, but don't whine to me about it being unfair that we want to 
> toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this industry!
> 
> Bill
> -- 
> Bill Hoffer PE
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
> Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
> 2504 Columbia Ave NW
> East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
> suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
> Cell(509)679-6165
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

[Bill Hoffer]

Larry

My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time
energy and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way
with NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and
stress to get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the
time and effort to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and
effort, it is good to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that
away from me, because you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a
break!  You have the right to run your business and promote it as you see
fit and so do I!  Does any qualification mean that you know everything, of
course not.  If any one of us think that, then we should get out of the
business.  Cause guess what, we are in a rapidly changing landscape where we
all are continually learning more and growing as an industry.  Otherwise
there would not be much use in this blog at all.  All an exam really means
is that you took the time, energy and stress to prepare for and take the
exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is about time our
industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all have the
opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be.  I
applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can
do without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being
unfair that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this
industry!

Bill
-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
Cell(509)679-6165
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Warren,

A couple of comments.

>From my viewpoint, NABCEP wants to be all things to all solar people, at
least in those select solar areas where there is money to be made. As you
might surmise, making money is, IMHO, the key to all NABCEP interests,
witness the plethora of certifications that now exist and the straphanger
training crowd willing to get some mileage out of "NABCEP eligible training"
during the current solar tax credit boondoggle. I see NABCEP, at best, sort
of like the US Green Building folks, LEED, Energy Star, etc. admirable in
concept but often so sorely lacking in execution as to be laughable and
oftentimes even disingenuous.

While I would welcome some type of nationwide certification, that hasn't
happened with Doctors, engineers, or even electricians; where there is
certainly less regional variation than there is with solar, so I won't hold
my breath for anyone to accomplish that desirable outcome for a long, long,
long time.Until then, state certification is the defacto benchmark.  I
oftentimes remind myself that it was the giant SONY who first introduced a
standardized videotape format, the BetaMax, but yet it was the, Johnny come
late, upstart Phillips who prevailed with VHS.

Thanks,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar


- Original Message - 
From: "Warren Lauzon" 
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +


> Way back in my more Liberal days, I was a union member and supporter. But
> over the past 20-25 years I have done a 180, and one of the main reasons
was
> the giant unions attempts at taking over the solar installation business.
> Somehow NABCEP got itself associated with the IBEW, at least in
perception.
> And perception is what matters to the less informed (which is 99.9% of
> everyone).
>
> NABCEP might want to make it more clear that it is not IBEW/big union
> associated - ie, "non partisan".
>
> Overall, I think that some sort of nationwide certification is the future,
> and right now NABCEP looks like the best bet for that.
>
> -Original Message- 
> From: Conrad Geyser
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 4:49 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +
>
> The advantage of having NABCEP is that it at least creates the idea and
> maybe lays the groundwork for licensing provisions for solar installers.
> Here in Massachusetts, we still can't pull our own electrical permits.
And
> by the way, that's BECAUSE of the electricians union.  The whole thing has
> actually gone South quite a bit but that's another story.  As far as I
know,
> in most other States with significant RE programs, us solar bozo's can at
> least wire back to the inverter under their PV license.  Did it not take
an
> extra year for California to get the million solar roofs initiative passed
> because the C-10s commandeered the bill?  So from my perspective, if it's
> less hassle we want, we want NABCEP to become stronger.
>
> My two cents,
>
> Conrad
> Cotuit Solar
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Parrish
> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:20 PM
> To: 'RE-wrenches'
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad
>
> As PV becomes more and more mainstream, more and more organizations
> (including state licensing boards, unions and other certifying bodies)
will
> weigh in on the subject of certifying installers for PV installation. We
> also have Professional Engineers that can provide expert opinions on the
> subject of sound engineering design.
>
> I think one of the more interesting conflicts (in California at least) is
> the insistence by some AHJs (and clients) that certain work be performed
by
> a licensed electrical contractor (C-10 in CA) as opposed to a licensed
solar
> contractor (C-46). Gosh, some schools require a C-10 license to teach PV
> design and installation!
>
> It is my understanding (and I am prepared to be corrected) that there is
> nothing in the C-10 license requirements (experience, skills, examination)
> that would argue that the holder of a C-10 license has any PV-specific
> knowledge, such as design of a PV system (orientation, shading, string
> sizing, proper PV ampacity calculations, maximum and minimum system
> voltages, proper loading analysis, anchoring and attachment of PV systems
on
> roof tops), commissioning/troubleshooting or calculation of annual energy
> production, or financial metrics such as payback and IRR. But I digress.
>
> As for NABCEP certification, there are of course different levels and
> different specialties. If we stick to the Ent

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP What's the problem?

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

I can't believe that reputable installers are actually trying to have this ad 
removed and have a problem with NABCEP's efforts to give this industry some 
standards.  I can't even count how many jobs I have fixed that were installed 
by professionals 10 years ago.  It is just scary what some installers try to 
get away with.  If someone has been in the industry for 10+ years they should 
be able to pass the NABCEP.  If they expect someone to pay big bucks for their 
service don't you think they should have some way of backing up their claim of 
professionalism other than the fact that others have trusted their work?  It 
seems to me that if the test is to hard, takes to long, or is a financial 
burden to anyone in this industry; you are in the wrong line of work.  I pay 
way more per year in liability insurance and other costs to keep by business 
open that the $400 test fee (for 3 years) is really just a drop in the bucket. 
And yes I am NABCEP Certified and proud of it. 

Aaron Mandelkorn
Renewable Energy Outfitters
P.O. Box 65 
Salida CO 81201
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com
www.reosolar.com




On Feb 7, 2011, at 7:59 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:

> Bob-O,
> 
> It sounds like you have some influence as to running this ad when you stated 
> "NO FREAKIN' WAY!" as a response to me asking NABCEP to either stop running 
> it or alter it so it doesn't have a negative effect on non-certificants.
> 
> Obviously, from the responses to my thread, the ad offends some 
> non-certificants. If NABCEP wants to continue to offend, then go ahead, 
> continue to run the ad. 
> 
> Please keep in mind that the ad not only offends some non certificants but 
> may also affect their business in a negative way. Offending is one thing but 
> negatively affecting livelihoods is quite another. Grid-tie PV is hard enough 
> to sell "as is" without the added burden of "countering the certification 
> argument" as someone suggested.
> 
> I know NABCEP wants everyone to be certified and we all want to be certified 
> but until we all have the time, money and the stress to do so or until it is 
> actually required then please use your influence to get NABCEP to stop 
> running of this ad. 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Larry Liesner
> Wirewiz
> Westport, CT
> Phone: 203-644-2404
> Fax: 203-557-0556
> wire...@gmail.com
> www.wire-wiz.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:
> 
>> Larry, Aram, etc,
>> Let me put this as succinctly as I can:
>> NO FREAKIN' WAY!
>> I've sat on the NABCEP BoD for many years -almost since it began. I am not 
>> an IBEW or NECA member, nor have I ever been. I've had my CA C-10 since 1991 
>> and I've been a NABCEP Certified PV installer since 2003. For many years we 
>> had no IBEW or NECA representation at NABCEP, but because we subscribe to 
>> the "Big Tent" theory and feel that all the players need a place at the 
>> table, we invited both of those organizations to participate in NABCEP some 
>> time ago. We are proud that both of them -along with many others- now sit 
>> with us and help to make our testing better and more relevant to today's RE 
>> markets. The IBEW is a large and very powerful union, but they do not 
>> control NABCEP -not even close. As long as I (and others) serve on the 
>> Board, they never will.
>> I'm sorry that you have a problem with our Home Power ad, but we're not 
>> backing down or changing it. Do you buy your components through 
>> distribution? Your distributor is going to tout their dealers as the best in 
>> the biz and they all support Certification. You bitching them out too or 
>> just us?
>> While there are many highly qualified Wrenches who have not yet achieved 
>> Certification or don't seek it for whatever reasons, those that have are 
>> among the best in the business. Can a Certificant screw up and make a 
>> mistake? Sure. Ain't nobody walking on water here. Do we have a very few 
>> Certificants who gamed the system and aren't as good as they should be? 
>> Probably. Are you going to stop using medical doctors because of a couple of 
>> quacks? Same thing.
>> Certification not for you? Fine. Be well and good luck. 
>> You might want to consider, however, that Certificants command a better wage 
>> or get more jobs than the average installer. While it's hard to accurately 
>> put a price on that, our research indicates that Certification adds 
>> $10K-$15K a year to an installer's pocket. Certification costs $400. and is 
>> good for three years. Do the math.
>> Peace,
>> Bob-O
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 6, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Aram Alexander wrote:
>> 
>> No you are not. I have been installing grid tied PV for 10 years in ca.
>> Nabcep is union based and all though it is good but it does not mean by any 
>> means the best as we have to fix several nabcep installed systems.
>> I personally don't like there advertising either
>> 
>> Aram 
>> 
>> On Feb 6, 2011, at 9:13 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>> 
>>> NABCEP has a 

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

[wirewiz]

Bob-O,

It sounds like you have some influence as to running this ad when you stated 
"NO FREAKIN' WAY!" as a response to me asking NABCEP to either stop running it 
or alter it so it doesn't have a negative effect on non-certificants.

Obviously, from the responses to my thread, the ad offends some 
non-certificants. If NABCEP wants to continue to offend, then go ahead, 
continue to run the ad. 

Please keep in mind that the ad not only offends some non certificants but may 
also affect their business in a negative way. Offending is one thing but 
negatively affecting livelihoods is quite another. Grid-tie PV is hard enough 
to sell "as is" without the added burden of "countering the certification 
argument" as someone suggested.

I know NABCEP wants everyone to be certified and we all want to be certified 
but until we all have the time, money and the stress to do so or until it is 
actually required then please use your influence to get NABCEP to stop running 
of this ad. 

Thank you.

Larry Liesner
Wirewiz
Westport, CT
Phone: 203-644-2404
Fax: 203-557-0556
wire...@gmail.com
www.wire-wiz.com



On Feb 6, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:

> Larry, Aram, etc,
> Let me put this as succinctly as I can:
> NO FREAKIN' WAY!
> I've sat on the NABCEP BoD for many years -almost since it began. I am not an 
> IBEW or NECA member, nor have I ever been. I've had my CA C-10 since 1991 and 
> I've been a NABCEP Certified PV installer since 2003. For many years we had 
> no IBEW or NECA representation at NABCEP, but because we subscribe to the 
> "Big Tent" theory and feel that all the players need a place at the table, we 
> invited both of those organizations to participate in NABCEP some time ago. 
> We are proud that both of them -along with many others- now sit with us and 
> help to make our testing better and more relevant to today's RE markets. The 
> IBEW is a large and very powerful union, but they do not control NABCEP -not 
> even close. As long as I (and others) serve on the Board, they never will.
> I'm sorry that you have a problem with our Home Power ad, but we're not 
> backing down or changing it. Do you buy your components through distribution? 
> Your distributor is going to tout their dealers as the best in the biz and 
> they all support Certification. You bitching them out too or just us?
> While there are many highly qualified Wrenches who have not yet achieved 
> Certification or don't seek it for whatever reasons, those that have are 
> among the best in the business. Can a Certificant screw up and make a 
> mistake? Sure. Ain't nobody walking on water here. Do we have a very few 
> Certificants who gamed the system and aren't as good as they should be? 
> Probably. Are you going to stop using medical doctors because of a couple of 
> quacks? Same thing.
> Certification not for you? Fine. Be well and good luck. 
> You might want to consider, however, that Certificants command a better wage 
> or get more jobs than the average installer. While it's hard to accurately 
> put a price on that, our research indicates that Certification adds $10K-$15K 
> a year to an installer's pocket. Certification costs $400. and is good for 
> three years. Do the math.
> Peace,
> Bob-O
> 
> 
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 10:11 AM, Aram Alexander wrote:
> 
> No you are not. I have been installing grid tied PV for 10 years in ca.
> Nabcep is union based and all though it is good but it does not mean by any 
> means the best as we have to fix several nabcep installed systems.
> I personally don't like there advertising either
> 
> Aram 
> 
> On Feb 6, 2011, at 9:13 AM, wire...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> 
>> NABCEP has a full page ad in Home Power magazine that tells potential PV 
>> buyers to "Insist on a NABCEP Certified Installer". That's a great ad if you 
>> are certified but not so good if you are not. I know many of you are but 
>> lots of us are not yet certified. 
>> 
>> NABCEP is doing a great job to ensure that PV is installed by qualified 
>> personal but is it their job to unintentionally cause non NABCEP certified 
>> installers who are otherwise very qualified to lose business. I don't think 
>> so. 
>> 
>> I contacted NABCEP about the consequences of this ad and actually asked them 
>> to stop running it or at least tone it down so it doesn't cause installers 
>> like to me to lose business. They disagreed with me.
>> 
>> Am I being too sensitive here?
>> 
>> Thank you.
>> 
>> Larry Liesner
>> Wirewiz
>> Westport, CT
>> Phone: 203-644-2404
>> Fax: 203-557-0556
>> wire...@gmail.com
>> www.wire-wiz.com
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +

[Warren Lauzon]

Way back in my more Liberal days, I was a union member and supporter. But 
over the past 20-25 years I have done a 180, and one of the main reasons was 
the giant unions attempts at taking over the solar installation business. 
Somehow NABCEP got itself associated with the IBEW, at least in perception. 
And perception is what matters to the less informed (which is 99.9% of 
everyone).


NABCEP might want to make it more clear that it is not IBEW/big union 
associated - ie, "non partisan".


Overall, I think that some sort of nationwide certification is the future, 
and right now NABCEP looks like the best bet for that.


-Original Message- 
From: Conrad Geyser

Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 4:49 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +

The advantage of having NABCEP is that it at least creates the idea and
maybe lays the groundwork for licensing provisions for solar installers.
Here in Massachusetts, we still can't pull our own electrical permits.  And
by the way, that's BECAUSE of the electricians union.  The whole thing has
actually gone South quite a bit but that's another story.  As far as I know,
in most other States with significant RE programs, us solar bozo's can at
least wire back to the inverter under their PV license.  Did it not take an
extra year for California to get the million solar roofs initiative passed
because the C-10s commandeered the bill?  So from my perspective, if it's
less hassle we want, we want NABCEP to become stronger.

My two cents,

Conrad
Cotuit Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:20 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad

As PV becomes more and more mainstream, more and more organizations
(including state licensing boards, unions and other certifying bodies) will
weigh in on the subject of certifying installers for PV installation. We
also have Professional Engineers that can provide expert opinions on the
subject of sound engineering design.

I think one of the more interesting conflicts (in California at least) is
the insistence by some AHJs (and clients) that certain work be performed by
a licensed electrical contractor (C-10 in CA) as opposed to a licensed solar
contractor (C-46). Gosh, some schools require a C-10 license to teach PV
design and installation!

It is my understanding (and I am prepared to be corrected) that there is
nothing in the C-10 license requirements (experience, skills, examination)
that would argue that the holder of a C-10 license has any PV-specific
knowledge, such as design of a PV system (orientation, shading, string
sizing, proper PV ampacity calculations, maximum and minimum system
voltages, proper loading analysis, anchoring and attachment of PV systems on
roof tops), commissioning/troubleshooting or calculation of annual energy
production, or financial metrics such as payback and IRR. But I digress.

As for NABCEP certification, there are of course different levels and
different specialties. If we stick to the Entry Level exam for PV installers
and the (full-up) Certified Solar PV Installer (of which I have some
knowledge) -- I think both have their value.

An individual who passes the Entry Level Exam demonstrates that they have a
certain level of knowledge about solar resources, PV system design and
installation, system performance, troubleshooting, safety practices, and
some financial metrics. What it doesn't deal with is experience and
practical skills. If I were contemplating hiring for an "entry level
installer" position, I would give considerable weight to some one who passed
the Entry Level Exam. I would of course also evaluate the individual's
skills and construction trade experience.

As for the Certified Solar PV Installer, the requirements to sit for the
exam include a significant amount of actual hands-on PV installation
experience. There are a number of ways to qualify and I think that NABCEP
has recognized a fairly broad number of "paths" to demonstrating this
experience. There is recognition of academic instruction but it must be
coupled with hands-on experience. There is also a code of ethics and
requirements for continuing education as a requirement for recertification.

And then there is the exam. I can vouch for the fact that the exam is
thorough and difficult. As an anecdote, when I took the exam not one single
person left the exam before the end of the time period. I won't hazard a
guess as to the "pass rate", perhaps someone else can provide some insight.

With all this work that NABCEP has put into standards and certification, I
would expect them to promote the value of their standards and
certifications. (full disclosure: I haven't seen the ad in Home Power; could
someone provide me with issue and page number?).

Is "insist" too strong a word? I don't know. I hear advertising all the time
like "Insist 

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP credits and code webinars

[Kelly Larson]

I think these may be:

http://www.sunwize.com/webinars/

Blessings,
Kelly

Kelly Larson
Box 104
Piercy, CA 95587
707-223-3209
Electrical Engineer
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
ISPQ Master Trainer
CA C-10 # 868189
solarke...@asis.com

"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of  
power!  I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before  
we tackle that."   	~ Thomas Edison





On Jan 4, 2011, at 11:54 AM, gary easton wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Anyone aware of webinars coming up approved for NABCEP's code  
related continuing education credits?

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP credits and code webinars

[toddcory]

Sunwise is having one this Thursday on code approved roof mounts.

Todd

On Tuesday, January 4, 2011 11:54am, "gary easton"  said:


Hello Wrenches,
 
Anyone aware of webinars coming up approved for NABCEP's code related 
continuing education credits?


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Bob-O,

Are you aware that the below news is no longer being reported on the NABCEP 
website?
IMHO, a short lived "welcome" to ULU.
"Nicely managed" becomes an even more appropriate comment, now.
Doesn't competition make you stronger?
Thanks,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:56 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU


  PRESS RELEASE CONTENT:
  May 5, 2010

Clifton Park, New York

NABCEP Charges Ahead with New Credentialing Opportunities

The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) 
announces new credentialing programs in response to growing renewable energy 
markets. NABCEP Chairperson Don Warfield says “Keeping pace with the rapid 
changes in the renewable sector is a priority for NABCEP. Our new credentialing 
programs are part of our commitment to continue to provide quality assurances 
for the renewable energy workforce.”
 
NABCEP’s newest credential will be for qualified electricians (i.e. 
journeyman/journeyperson) who work in non- supervisory roles on PV installation 
crews. This certification will focus on installing PV systems safely and will 
also cover the principals of the application, design and operation of grid-tie 
PV system. It is being developed in close collaboration with NABCEP Board 
members who represent; Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC), International 
Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), National Electrical Contractors 
Association (NECA), National Joint Apprenticeship Training Center (NJATC), and 
NABCEP Certified PV Installers.

Ezra Auerbach, NABCEP’s Executive Director, says; “This new credential is 
being developed in recognition that as the industry has grown the work of an 
installer has become multifaceted and more Certifications have become 
necessary. On many jobs, especially those with larger scope, the installer is a 
qualified electrician who is called upon to perform work that has already 
undergone engineering review and is on a job site that is prepared for the 
electrical trades.”

NABCEP’s flagship PV Installer Certification is offered to individuals who 
can show responsible installation experience and advanced training. Passing the 
PV Installer Certification exam demonstrates the candidate’s knowledge of the 
design, installation, commissioning and troubleshooting of grid-tie and 
stand-alone PV systems. This certification is widely held by supervisory 
personnel who lead PV installation crews.   

In conjunction with making this announcement, NABCEP welcomes UL 
University’s (ULU) recent announcement that they are entering the business of 
offering PV Training to qualified electricians. NABCEP’s Executive Director, 
Ezra Auerbach, says; “I encourage ULU to use the nationally recognized Task 
Analyses and practitioner credentialing programs developed by NABCEP for their 
training programs. We have no doubt that they will do an excellent job at ULU 
in their PV training and we would hope that their students will have the 
opportunity to demonstrate their educational successes by sitting for NABCEP’s 
professional credentialing exams.”

NABCEP offers the most widely recognized personnel credentialing program in 
the Renewable Energy industry.  New credentialing programs are being rolled out 
including the Small Wind Installer Certification and the PV Technical Sales 
Certification.  The PV Entry Level exam will soon be available through 
computer-based testing.  Please check in at www.nabcep.org for more details.


  Ezra Auerbach
  Executive Director

  eauerb...@nabcep.org

  North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP)
  634 Plank Road
  Clifton Park, N.Y. 12065

  1 800 654 0021
  1 518 670 4553 Direct

  www.nabcep.org


--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU

[Bill Loesch]

Hi Bob-O,

Thanks for the PR update, in which one thrust appears to be an all encompasing 
/embracing appeal by listing the affiliations of the Board members. Any reason 
the website doesn't list the actual Board members _with_ their formal 
affiliation titles (i.e.. member, president)? 

I appreciate the announcement not degenerating into mud slinging (at least not 
yet ). As Joel said, "Nicely managed. Congratulations."

Thanks,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar


  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:56 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU


  PRESS RELEASE CONTENT:
  May 5, 2010

Clifton Park, New York

NABCEP Charges Ahead with New Credentialing Opportunities

The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) 
announces new credentialing programs in response to growing renewable energy 
markets. NABCEP Chairperson Don Warfield says “Keeping pace with the rapid 
changes in the renewable sector is a priority for NABCEP. Our new credentialing 
programs are part of our commitment to continue to provide quality assurances 
for the renewable energy workforce.”
 
NABCEP’s newest credential will be for qualified electricians (i.e. 
journeyman/journeyperson) who work in non- supervisory roles on PV installation 
crews. This certification will focus on installing PV systems safely and will 
also cover the principals of the application, design and operation of grid-tie 
PV system. It is being developed in close collaboration with NABCEP Board 
members who represent; Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC), International 
Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), National Electrical Contractors 
Association (NECA), National Joint Apprenticeship Training Center (NJATC), and 
NABCEP Certified PV Installers.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU

[Joel Davidson]

Nicely managed. Congratulations.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:56 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Statement about ULU


  PRESS RELEASE CONTENT:
  May 5, 2010

Clifton Park, New York

NABCEP Charges Ahead with New Credentialing Opportunities

The North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP) 
announces new credentialing programs in response to growing renewable energy 
markets. NABCEP Chairperson Don Warfield says “Keeping pace with the rapid 
changes in the renewable sector is a priority for NABCEP. Our new credentialing 
programs are part of our commitment to continue to provide quality assurances 
for the renewable energy workforce.”
 
NABCEP’s newest credential will be for qualified electricians (i.e. 
journeyman/journeyperson) who work in non- supervisory roles on PV installation 
crews. This certification will focus on installing PV systems safely and will 
also cover the principals of the application, design and operation of grid-tie 
PV system. It is being developed in close collaboration with NABCEP Board 
members who represent; Independent Electrical Contractors (IEC), International 
Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW), National Electrical Contractors 
Association (NECA), National Joint Apprenticeship Training Center (NJATC), and 
NABCEP Certified PV Installers.

Ezra Auerbach, NABCEP’s Executive Director, says; “This new credential is 
being developed in recognition that as the industry has grown the work of an 
installer has become multifaceted and more Certifications have become 
necessary. On many jobs, especially those with larger scope, the installer is a 
qualified electrician who is called upon to perform work that has already 
undergone engineering review and is on a job site that is prepared for the 
electrical trades.”

NABCEP’s flagship PV Installer Certification is offered to individuals who 
can show responsible installation experience and advanced training. Passing the 
PV Installer Certification exam demonstrates the candidate’s knowledge of the 
design, installation, commissioning and troubleshooting of grid-tie and 
stand-alone PV systems. This certification is widely held by supervisory 
personnel who lead PV installation crews.   

In conjunction with making this announcement, NABCEP welcomes UL 
University’s (ULU) recent announcement that they are entering the business of 
offering PV Training to qualified electricians. NABCEP’s Executive Director, 
Ezra Auerbach, says; “I encourage ULU to use the nationally recognized Task 
Analyses and practitioner credentialing programs developed by NABCEP for their 
training programs. We have no doubt that they will do an excellent job at ULU 
in their PV training and we would hope that their students will have the 
opportunity to demonstrate their educational successes by sitting for NABCEP’s 
professional credentialing exams.”

NABCEP offers the most widely recognized personnel credentialing program in 
the Renewable Energy industry.  New credentialing programs are being rolled out 
including the Small Wind Installer Certification and the PV Technical Sales 
Certification.  The PV Entry Level exam will soon be available through 
computer-based testing.  Please check in at www.nabcep.org for more details.


  Ezra Auerbach
  Executive Director

  eauerb...@nabcep.org

  North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP)
  634 Plank Road
  Clifton Park, N.Y. 12065

  1 800 654 0021
  1 518 670 4553 Direct

  www.nabcep.org


--


  ___
  List sponsored by Home Power magazine

  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

  Options & settings:
  http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

  List rules & etiquette:
  www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

  Check out participant bios:
  www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition? ANYONE OUT THERE???

[Peter Parrish]

Which show are you referring to, NABCEP or ULU?

Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885

 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 8:41 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition? ANYONE OUT THERE???

What or who is running this solar bozo show?

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076
web - www.solarwork.com
Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Blair
May
Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 8:25 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition? ANYONE OUT THERE???

I am frustrated by the lack of response from the folks at NABCEP
regarding
this type of comment.
Is anyone from NABCEP out there? Any thoughts on this???
To bad this wasn't discussed/addressed w/ UL prior to their launching.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition?

  Underwriters Laboratories Announces Personnel Certification
Program
for Solar Photovoltaic System Installers
26.04.2010: Underwriters Laboratories (UL), a global
leader in
safety testing and certification, announced today the introduction of
a new
program to train and certify installers of photovoltaic (PV) products
and
systems. The program, available beginning July 2010 through UL
University
(ULU), represents the first of many the organization will provide for
practitioners across a wide range of industries and professions. The
PV
System Installer certification program was created to meet and exceed
existing industry requirements through a working cooperation with
leading PV

industry stakeholders, NGOs and professional associations. The new
offering
from ULU, geared towards licensed electricians, aims to satisfy a need
to
improve the safety and performance of PV systems through a more
qualified
workforce. With solar power expected to generate 10 percent of the
world's
total electricity by 2035, the safety of installed systems will become
even
more important. . Source: Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2848 - Release Date:
05/02/10 12:27:00

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition? ANYONE OUT THERE????

[Bob-O Schultze]

Blair,
We're out here and are well aware of UL's toe-tipping into the world of 
certification. Look for a formal announcement from NABCEP in a few days.
In the meantime, two things:
First, it's no great wonder that UL made this announcement at the same time the 
DOE announced that they were considering making DOE funding a competitive 
process. It's a throw-your-hat-into-the-ring kind of thing.
Second, you all know that NABCEP does NOT do training. We are an independent 
certification agency. Ask yourself how an agency can both train AND certify. 
Bit of a conflict of interest there, don't you think?
A short while back, Ezra posted here asking y'all to send in letters to the DOE 
supporting NABCEP. These are VERY important and if you haven't done so yet, 
please do. Unless, of course, you like the way that UL does business now and 
want to have your Certification handled the same way. Think about that one for 
a minute.
Best, Bob-O


On May 3, 2010, at 7:25 AM, Blair May wrote:

I am frustrated by the lack of response from the folks at NABCEP regarding
this type of comment.
Is anyone from NABCEP out there? Any thoughts on this???
To bad this wasn't discussed/addressed w/ UL prior to their launching.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition?


 Underwriters Laboratories Announces Personnel Certification Program 
for Solar Photovoltaic System Installers
   26.04.2010: Underwriters Laboratories (UL), a global leader in 
safety testing and certification, announced today the introduction of a new 
program to train and certify installers of photovoltaic (PV) products and 
systems. The program, available beginning July 2010 through UL University 
(ULU), represents the first of many the organization will provide for 
practitioners across a wide range of industries and professions. The PV 
System Installer certification program was created to meet and exceed 
existing industry requirements through a working cooperation with leading PV

industry stakeholders, NGOs and professional associations. The new offering 
from ULU, geared towards licensed electricians, aims to satisfy a need to 
improve the safety and performance of PV systems through a more qualified 
workforce. With solar power expected to generate 10 percent of the world's 
total electricity by 2035, the safety of installed systems will become even 
more important. . Source: Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition? ANYONE OUT THERE????

[Blair May]

I am frustrated by the lack of response from the folks at NABCEP regarding
this type of comment.
Is anyone from NABCEP out there? Any thoughts on this???
To bad this wasn't discussed/addressed w/ UL prior to their launching.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:35 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP competition?


  Underwriters Laboratories Announces Personnel Certification Program 
for Solar Photovoltaic System Installers
26.04.2010: Underwriters Laboratories (UL), a global leader in 
safety testing and certification, announced today the introduction of a new 
program to train and certify installers of photovoltaic (PV) products and 
systems. The program, available beginning July 2010 through UL University 
(ULU), represents the first of many the organization will provide for 
practitioners across a wide range of industries and professions. The PV 
System Installer certification program was created to meet and exceed 
existing industry requirements through a working cooperation with leading PV

industry stakeholders, NGOs and professional associations. The new offering 
from ULU, geared towards licensed electricians, aims to satisfy a need to 
improve the safety and performance of PV systems through a more qualified 
workforce. With solar power expected to generate 10 percent of the world's 
total electricity by 2035, the safety of installed systems will become even 
more important. . Source: Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger

[Tump]

 
  

 After spending quite a few hours working with fellow installers &
professional testing folks, developing, reviewing, fighting to keep the
NABCEP test "tough & on task" I too agree w/ Bob OIf you think all that
is easy to do, try it sometime.


I wholeheartedly agree with and can confirm what Bob-O said.
 
-Matt Lafferty


  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger


Folks, 
While none of us obviously has access to the wording of the specific
question itself, I can assure you that there are no "tricky" or non-sensical
questions on ANY of the NABCEP exams. Our Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who
come up with the questions AND the answers aren't a bunch of nerds in a
university somewhere, they are us; working wrenches like ourselves. All the
questions and answered are submitted to a round table discussion of the SMEs
to be accepted, modified to be made clearer, or thrown out. At the same
time, they are reviewed by a professional testing expert for clarity,
readability, and correct usage of the language. Of the four answer choices,
there are almost always two which are dead wrong, one which could be arrived
at if you didn't follow all the steps of the question or didn't exactly know
the material, and the correct answer. If you think all that is easy to do,
try it sometime.
After the test is taken, the testing expert analyses the raw data and the
SMEs review any items which seem questionable. For example, if most of the
test takers INCLUDING those who did very well on the test otherwise missed a
certain question, they take a hard look at it to see if there is ambiguity
or if it can be interpreted differently from the way it was intended. It
does happen that in spite of all the work put into developing the question,
it is flawed in some way. When that happens, the question is discarded and
all the test takers in that round get credit for it.
As to putting together a study guide, that's even harder. Remember that it's
a "Guide", not a book like the NEC wherein lie all the answers to the
questions. The Entry Level test is not a snap by any means, but it is basic
in nature to our field and there are no questions on it that an installer
would have to face, IE, anything to do with the NEC. The Installer
Certification test is difficult, as it should be. Unless you know our trade
inside and out PLUS have done some study in the areas which you don't do at
all or very often (we all have those), you will have difficulty in achieving
a passing score. I know many good Wrenches who missed it at least the first
time. Some of those just say, "Screw it, I don't need this shit". Others
have challenged themselves to hit the books again and brush up on the areas
they found out (from taking the test the first time) where they were weak
and nailed it on the next round. Everyone I've ever talked to, including
myself, has said that they are a better craftsperson for having taken and
passed the test.
Bob-O


On Mar 27, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

I have never seen the exam but I have been told several of the questions are
nonsense.   Just like the study guide, and  from what I hear  there are
questions  of similar  nature on the installers exam.  Something is wrong
with the test generation.  
Darryl

--- On Sat, 3/27/10, Warren Lauzon  wrote:




From: Warren Lauzon 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 10:55 AM


To be honest, I don't think the question makes any sense. There are several
"right" answers, but no good ones. I hope that is not the extent of the
battery questions on that exam.
 

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

..

- Original Message - 
From: Drake  
Chamberlin 
To: RE-wrenches 

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger

Hi Dave, 

At 10:44 AM 3/26/2010, you wrote:


Is the answer here (at least the one that NABCEP intends) just that the VMP
of a "12V module" is higher than the voltage of a 12V battery? With the
higher voltage it will charge the battery with its corresponding current
based on the I-V curve. The objective reads "Explain why PV modules make
excellent battery chargers based on their I-V characteristics



This may be the answer they want.  The "Objectives" deals with the 5 key
points on the IV curve, Vmp, Imp, Voc, Isc and Pmp.  >From a study of the
curve, the obvious "excellent" load is one that takes power from Pmp, which
direct battery charging doesn't do.  Whe

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger

[Drake Chamberlin]

Thanks Joel,

That was the type of information I was looking for.

At 01:36 PM 3/28/2010, you wrote:
The PV industry started using 32 to 38 silicon single crystal solar 
cells in series to charge 12-volt batteries. At first, 33-cell 
modules were used without charge controllers for smaller PV systems 
by balancing the size of the PV array with the load and battery 
bank. Later, it was determined that 36-cell silicon single crystal 
and multicrystalline cell modules in combination with a charge 
controller provided reliable battery charging over a range of cell 
temperatures and also reduced the size of the battery bank that was 
previously used with unregulated systems. In the early 1980s, Arco 
Solar claimed that 30-cell single crystal so-called 
'self-regulating' solar modules could be used for 12-volt battery 
charging without a charge controller. However, 30-cell modules did 
not provide adequate charging voltage for 12-volt batteries in hot 
and even in temperate climates. Still, PV is a excellent electric 
power source and a properly sized PV system using 33- to 36-silicon 
cell modules can charge 12-volt batteries well.


Joel Davidson


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP TM  Certified PV Installer
Office - 740-448-7328
Mobile - 740-856-9648  ___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger

[Matt Lafferty]

I wholeheartedly agree with and can confirm what Bob-O said.
 
-Matt Lafferty


  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob-O
Schultze
Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:19 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger


Folks, 
While none of us obviously has access to the wording of the specific
question itself, I can assure you that there are no "tricky" or non-sensical
questions on ANY of the NABCEP exams. Our Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who
come up with the questions AND the answers aren't a bunch of nerds in a
university somewhere, they are us; working wrenches like ourselves. All the
questions and answered are submitted to a round table discussion of the SMEs
to be accepted, modified to be made clearer, or thrown out. At the same
time, they are reviewed by a professional testing expert for clarity,
readability, and correct usage of the language. Of the four answer choices,
there are almost always two which are dead wrong, one which could be arrived
at if you didn't follow all the steps of the question or didn't exactly know
the material, and the correct answer. If you think all that is easy to do,
try it sometime.
After the test is taken, the testing expert analyses the raw data and the
SMEs review any items which seem questionable. For example, if most of the
test takers INCLUDING those who did very well on the test otherwise missed a
certain question, they take a hard look at it to see if there is ambiguity
or if it can be interpreted differently from the way it was intended. It
does happen that in spite of all the work put into developing the question,
it is flawed in some way. When that happens, the question is discarded and
all the test takers in that round get credit for it.
As to putting together a study guide, that's even harder. Remember that it's
a "Guide", not a book like the NEC wherein lie all the answers to the
questions. The Entry Level test is not a snap by any means, but it is basic
in nature to our field and there are no questions on it that an installer
would have to face, IE, anything to do with the NEC. The Installer
Certification test is difficult, as it should be. Unless you know our trade
inside and out PLUS have done some study in the areas which you don't do at
all or very often (we all have those), you will have difficulty in achieving
a passing score. I know many good Wrenches who missed it at least the first
time. Some of those just say, "Screw it, I don't need this shit". Others
have challenged themselves to hit the books again and brush up on the areas
they found out (from taking the test the first time) where they were weak
and nailed it on the next round. Everyone I've ever talked to, including
myself, has said that they are a better craftsperson for having taken and
passed the test.
Bob-O


On Mar 27, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

I have never seen the exam but I have been told several of the questions are
nonsense.   Just like the study guide, and  from what I hear  there are
questions  of similar  nature on the installers exam.  Something is wrong
with the test generation.  
Darryl

--- On Sat, 3/27/10, Warren Lauzon  wrote:




From: Warren Lauzon 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 10:55 AM


To be honest, I don't think the question makes any sense. There are several
"right" answers, but no good ones. I hope that is not the extent of the
battery questions on that exam.
 

..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

..

- Original Message - 
From: Drake  
Chamberlin 
To: RE-wrenches 

Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger

Hi Dave, 

At 10:44 AM 3/26/2010, you wrote:


Is the answer here (at least the one that NABCEP intends) just that the VMP
of a "12V module" is higher than the voltage of a 12V battery? With the
higher voltage it will charge the battery with its corresponding current
based on the I-V curve. The objective reads "Explain why PV modules make
excellent battery chargers based on their I-V characteristics



This may be the answer they want.  The "Objectives" deals with the 5 key
points on the IV curve, Vmp, Imp, Voc, Isc and Pmp.  >From a study of the
curve, the obvious "excellent" load is one that takes power from Pmp, which
direct battery charging doesn't do.  When I draw the curve, the Vmp of the
module is above the resulting voltage on the curve.  

What you say about the power loss not being released as heat in the
batteries,  just not produced, makes sense to me.  I've never seen any real
documentation about w

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger

[Joel Davidson]

I forgot to include the reference for PV battery charging without a charge 
controller. It is 'Solar Photovoltaic Applications Seminar: Design, 
Installation and Operation of Small, Stand-Alone Photovoltaic Power Systems,' 
July 1980, 351 pages, DOE/CS/32522-T1

"Direct electrical connection of the array to the battery system without 
regulation is advisable only when the peak output current of the array is less 
than 5% of the charge capacity of the batteries (amp-hour rating) in the system 
(charge equals current x time)." 

This document is one of the first comprehensive PV system design books and well 
worth reading. I could not find it for free on the internet. Jim Fortenberry at 
Jet Propulsion Laboratory gave me his copy in 1986 when the Reagan 
Administration stopped the JPL solar program and Block V testing the same year 
UL 1703 was published.

Joel Davidson

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:18 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger


  Folks,
  While none of us obviously has access to the wording of the specific question 
itself, I can assure you that there are no "tricky" or non-sensical questions 
on ANY of the NABCEP exams. Our Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who come up with 
the questions AND the answers aren't a bunch of nerds in a university 
somewhere, they are us; working wrenches like ourselves. All the questions and 
answered are submitted to a round table discussion of the SMEs to be accepted, 
modified to be made clearer, or thrown out. At the same time, they are reviewed 
by a professional testing expert for clarity, readability, and correct usage of 
the language. Of the four answer choices, there are almost always two which are 
dead wrong, one which could be arrived at if you didn't follow all the steps of 
the question or didn't exactly know the material, and the correct answer. If 
you think all that is easy to do, try it sometime.
  After the test is taken, the testing expert analyses the raw data and the 
SMEs review any items which seem questionable. For example, if most of the test 
takers INCLUDING those who did very well on the test otherwise missed a certain 
question, they take a hard look at it to see if there is ambiguity or if it can 
be interpreted differently from the way it was intended. It does happen that in 
spite of all the work put into developing the question, it is flawed in some 
way. When that happens, the question is discarded and all the test takers in 
that round get credit for it.
  As to putting together a study guide, that's even harder. Remember that it's 
a "Guide", not a book like the NEC wherein lie all the answers to the 
questions. The Entry Level test is not a snap by any means, but it is basic in 
nature to our field and there are no questions on it that an installer would 
have to face, IE, anything to do with the NEC. The Installer Certification test 
is difficult, as it should be. Unless you know our trade inside and out PLUS 
have done some study in the areas which you don't do at all or very often (we 
all have those), you will have difficulty in achieving a passing score. I know 
many good Wrenches who missed it at least the first time. Some of those just 
say, "Screw it, I don't need this shit". Others have challenged themselves to 
hit the books again and brush up on the areas they found out (from taking the 
test the first time) where they were weak and nailed it on the next round. 
Everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, has said that they are a better 
craftsperson for having taken and passed the test.
  Bob-O




  On Mar 27, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

I have never seen the exam but I have been told several of the 
questions are nonsense.   Just like the study guide, and  from what I hear  
there are  questions  of similar  nature on the installers exam.  Something is 
wrong with the test generation.  
Darryl

--- On Sat, 3/27/10, Warren Lauzon  wrote:


  From: Warren Lauzon 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
  To: "RE-wrenches" 
  Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 10:55 AM


  To be honest, I don't think the question makes any sense. There are 
several "right" answers, but no good ones. I hope that is not the extent of the 
battery questions on that exam.

  
..
  Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
  Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
  
..
- Original Message - 
From: Drake Chamberlin 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excelle

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger

[Joel Davidson]

Developing test questions is an on-going process as knowledge, understanding, 
and language evolve.

The PV industry started using 32 to 38 silicon single crystal solar cells in 
series to charge 12-volt batteries. At first, 33-cell modules were used without 
charge controllers for smaller PV systems by balancing the size of the PV array 
with the load and battery bank. Later, it was determined that 36-cell silicon 
single crystal and multicrystalline cell modules in combination with a charge 
controller provided reliable battery charging over a range of cell temperatures 
and also reduced the size of the battery bank that was previously used with 
unregulated systems. In the early 1980s, Arco Solar claimed that 30-cell single 
crystal so-called 'self-regulating' solar modules could be used for 12-volt 
battery charging without a charge controller. However, 30-cell modules did not 
provide adequate charging voltage for 12-volt batteries in hot and even in 
temperate climates. Still, PV is a excellent electric power source and a 
properly sized PV system using 33- to 36-silicon cell modules can charge 
12-volt batteries well.

Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: Bob-O Schultze 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 9:18 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP Exam was: PV excellent battery charger


  Folks,
  While none of us obviously has access to the wording of the specific question 
itself, I can assure you that there are no "tricky" or non-sensical questions 
on ANY of the NABCEP exams. Our Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who come up with 
the questions AND the answers aren't a bunch of nerds in a university 
somewhere, they are us; working wrenches like ourselves. All the questions and 
answered are submitted to a round table discussion of the SMEs to be accepted, 
modified to be made clearer, or thrown out. At the same time, they are reviewed 
by a professional testing expert for clarity, readability, and correct usage of 
the language. Of the four answer choices, there are almost always two which are 
dead wrong, one which could be arrived at if you didn't follow all the steps of 
the question or didn't exactly know the material, and the correct answer. If 
you think all that is easy to do, try it sometime.
  After the test is taken, the testing expert analyses the raw data and the 
SMEs review any items which seem questionable. For example, if most of the test 
takers INCLUDING those who did very well on the test otherwise missed a certain 
question, they take a hard look at it to see if there is ambiguity or if it can 
be interpreted differently from the way it was intended. It does happen that in 
spite of all the work put into developing the question, it is flawed in some 
way. When that happens, the question is discarded and all the test takers in 
that round get credit for it.
  As to putting together a study guide, that's even harder. Remember that it's 
a "Guide", not a book like the NEC wherein lie all the answers to the 
questions. The Entry Level test is not a snap by any means, but it is basic in 
nature to our field and there are no questions on it that an installer would 
have to face, IE, anything to do with the NEC. The Installer Certification test 
is difficult, as it should be. Unless you know our trade inside and out PLUS 
have done some study in the areas which you don't do at all or very often (we 
all have those), you will have difficulty in achieving a passing score. I know 
many good Wrenches who missed it at least the first time. Some of those just 
say, "Screw it, I don't need this shit". Others have challenged themselves to 
hit the books again and brush up on the areas they found out (from taking the 
test the first time) where they were weak and nailed it on the next round. 
Everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, has said that they are a better 
craftsperson for having taken and passed the test.
  Bob-O




  On Mar 27, 2010, at 8:02 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:

I have never seen the exam but I have been told several of the 
questions are nonsense.   Just like the study guide, and  from what I hear  
there are  questions  of similar  nature on the installers exam.  Something is 
wrong with the test generation.  
Darryl

--- On Sat, 3/27/10, Warren Lauzon  wrote:


  From: Warren Lauzon 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
  To: "RE-wrenches" 
  Date: Saturday, March 27, 2010, 10:55 AM


  To be honest, I don't think the question makes any sense. There are 
several "right" answers, but no good ones. I hope that is not the extent of the 
battery questions on that exam.

  
..
  Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
  Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
  
..

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP website ideas

[Andrew Truitt]

Allan - I think both tools could be very useful and fully support the
website modifications.


Andrew Truitt
NABCEP Certified PV Installer (ID# 032407-66)



On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:12 PM, R Ray Walters  wrote:

> Both ideas are simple and make good sense. I think listing the number of
> years certified is a strong reason I'd renew actually, otherwise what's the
> difference between someone who has been certified for 6 years vs. 6 months?
>
>  R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>
>  Wrenches,
> Recently I wrote to NABCEP with two requests, for changes on the website's
> public information:
>  1. In addition to a state-by-state list of certificants, have also a
> single overall alphabetized list that is not delimited by state, to allow a
> quick check if an installer who claims certification actually is so.
>  2. I would like to see the year of initial certification available as
> part of the published info on NABCEP's certificant listings. I would like to
> think that this is also a good indicator of an installer's experience as the
> field (of certificants) continues to get larger.
>
> I got thoughtful responses from Ezra and Bob-O. The essence of the
> back-and-forth discussion follows my signature line. But straight and to the
> point: Among those of you who are NABCEP Certified PV Installers, what are
> your opinions about these two ideas? Any responses and discussion will make
> its way back to NABCEP - I'll see to that.
> Thanks,
> Allan
> --
>
> *Allan** Sindelar*
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> *Positive Energy, Inc.*
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112*
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
>
>
> [Last post first; earlier posts follow]
>
> Hi Allan,
> As always it's great to "talk" with you. I want to correct a common
> misunderstanding about the qualifications to sit for the NABCEP Installer
> Exam. Nothing has changed with respect to experience. The person applying
> still needs to have been the person responsible for two PV systems sometime
> over the past two years. You are correct that some time ago we changed the
> wording to "some time within the past two years" this was to indicate that
> difference between two complete years of experience and two systems in the
> past two years (our actual requirement).
>
>  I can assure you that the likes of Bob-O keep us all very honest when it
> comes to watering down the qualifications to sit for the exam. The entire
> exam committee keeps their eye on not "dumbing down" the exam. They want the
> new achievers to work as hard as you and the other early adopters did.
>
>  I am not really in favour of the downloadable list because of the spam
> concerns but I'll happily accede to what the "Certs" want. I'd suggest an
> informal poll - RE Wrenches perhaps - trying to get some additional buy-in
> from Certificants. Again that's your call.
>
>  As to the date first Certified I don't think that should be too difficult
> but I hate to make promises before I speak the the folks who would actually
> do the work and find out from them how difficult or time consuming the task
> would be. I'm going to be in our office later this week and I'll keep you
> posted.
> Best regards,
> Ezra
>
> Ezra Auerbach
> Executive Director
> eauerb...@nabcep.org
> North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP)
> 634 Plank Road
> Clifton Park, N.Y. 12065
> 1 800 654 0021
> 1 518 670 4553 Direct
> www.nabcep.org
>
> On 2010-03-01, at 9:01 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Ezra, Bob-O, Tim, Rex,
> Wow! I appreciate the dialogue that my suggestions engendered, and the fast
> response.
>
> Re the first issue, the national list: like Bob-O, I did not see spam
> potential as an issue, and I'm not knowledgeable enough about spam control
> to advise. I have observed that I get far fewer spam messages in my inbox
> than I did a few years ago - perhaps one or two a day, versus 15-20 maybe 4
> years ago, and I haven't changed either email addresses or public
> visibility.
>
> I would consider a national list to be a convenience more than a necessity.
> You are all aware that I am quite protective of proper use of the logo and
> any claims of certification - I have shared some of my efforts with you. But
> I have seldom been hindered by having to check state lists, so it's not a
> big deal for my needs - more a suggestion. Perhaps there are others for whom
> this would make a bigger difference.
>
> On the other issue, I'll offer two perspectives, closely related. As NABCEP
> certification becomes widespread and necessary for so many installations,
> you are most likely experiencing ongoing pressure to certify more
> installers. I have already seen the qualification standards become
> diminished - where an applicant once needed to lead at least two
> installations to qualify, now he or she need only show "e

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP website ideas

[R Ray Walters]

Both ideas are simple and make good sense. I think listing the number of years 
certified is a strong reason I'd renew actually, otherwise what's the 
difference between someone who has been certified for 6 years vs. 6 months? 

R. Walters
r...@solarray.com
Solar Engineer




On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Wrenches,
> Recently I wrote to NABCEP with two requests, for changes on the website's 
> public information:
>  1. In addition to a state-by-state list of certificants, have also a 
> single overall alphabetized list that is not delimited by state, to allow a 
> quick check if an installer who claims certification actually is so. 
>  2. I would like to see the year of initial certification available as 
> part of the published info on NABCEP's certificant listings. I would like to 
> think that this is also a good indicator of an installer's experience as the 
> field (of certificants) continues to get larger.
> 
> I got thoughtful responses from Ezra and Bob-O. The essence of the 
> back-and-forth discussion follows my signature line. But straight and to the 
> point: Among those of you who are NABCEP Certified PV Installers, what are 
> your opinions about these two ideas? Any responses and discussion will make 
> its way back to NABCEP - I'll see to that.
> Thanks,
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
> 
> [Last post first; earlier posts follow]
> 
> Hi Allan,
> As always it's great to "talk" with you. I want to correct a common 
> misunderstanding about the qualifications to sit for the NABCEP Installer 
> Exam. Nothing has changed with respect to experience. The person applying 
> still needs to have been the person responsible for two PV systems sometime 
> over the past two years. You are correct that some time ago we changed the 
> wording to "some time within the past two years" this was to indicate that 
> difference between two complete years of experience and two systems in the 
> past two years (our actual requirement). 
> 
> I can assure you that the likes of Bob-O keep us all very honest when it 
> comes to watering down the qualifications to sit for the exam. The entire 
> exam committee keeps their eye on not "dumbing down" the exam. They want the 
> new achievers to work as hard as you and the other early adopters did.
> 
> I am not really in favour of the downloadable list because of the spam 
> concerns but I'll happily accede to what the "Certs" want. I'd suggest an 
> informal poll - RE Wrenches perhaps - trying to get some additional buy-in 
> from Certificants. Again that's your call.
> 
> As to the date first Certified I don't think that should be too difficult but 
> I hate to make promises before I speak the the folks who would actually do 
> the work and find out from them how difficult or time consuming the task 
> would be. I'm going to be in our office later this week and I'll keep you 
> posted. 
> Best regards,
> Ezra
> 
> Ezra Auerbach
> Executive Director
> eauerb...@nabcep.org
> North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP)
> 634 Plank Road
> Clifton Park, N.Y. 12065
> 1 800 654 0021
> 1 518 670 4553 Direct
> www.nabcep.org
> 
> On 2010-03-01, at 9:01 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
> Ezra, Bob-O, Tim, Rex,
> Wow! I appreciate the dialogue that my suggestions engendered, and the fast 
> response.
> 
> Re the first issue, the national list: like Bob-O, I did not see spam 
> potential as an issue, and I'm not knowledgeable enough about spam control to 
> advise. I have observed that I get far fewer spam messages in my inbox than I 
> did a few years ago - perhaps one or two a day, versus 15-20 maybe 4 years 
> ago, and I haven't changed either email addresses or public visibility. 
> 
> I would consider a national list to be a convenience more than a necessity. 
> You are all aware that I am quite protective of proper use of the logo and 
> any claims of certification - I have shared some of my efforts with you. But 
> I have seldom been hindered by having to check state lists, so it's not a big 
> deal for my needs - more a suggestion. Perhaps there are others for whom this 
> would make a bigger difference.
> 
> On the other issue, I'll offer two perspectives, closely related. As NABCEP 
> certification becomes widespread and necessary for so many installations, you 
> are most likely experiencing ongoing pressure to certify more installers. I 
> have already seen the qualification standards become diminished - where an 
> applicant once needed to lead at least two installations to qualify, now he 
> or she need only show "experience installing PV systems occurring at some 
> point in the two (2) years prior to submitting an application". And 
> certification is certification, by which I mean that once certif

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP website ideas

[August Goers]

Hi Allan,

I like the idea of adding the cert date to the NABCEP list. Here in California 
we can go to the contractors state license board website and check contractor 
license info at any time:

https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/OnlineServices/CheckLicense/LicenseRequest.asp

I imagine that other states have similar websites. It's great to be able to see 
when the license was issued, current status, and to see if any claims have been 
filed against the contractor.

I don't have a strong opinion about the nationwide list but I don't see any 
downsides to it.

I'm both a NABCEP certified PV and Thermal installer.

-August


August Goers


Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167
www.luminalt.com


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar 
[al...@positiveenergysolar.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 11:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP website ideas

Wrenches,
Recently I wrote to NABCEP with two requests, for changes on the website's 
public information:
 1. In addition to a state-by-state list of certificants, have also a 
single overall alphabetized list that is not delimited by state, to allow a 
quick check if an installer who claims certification actually is so.
 2. I would like to see the year of initial certification available as part 
of the published info on NABCEP's certificant listings. I would like to think 
that this is also a good indicator of an installer's experience as the field 
(of certificants) continues to get larger.

I got thoughtful responses from Ezra and Bob-O. The essence of the 
back-and-forth discussion follows my signature line. But straight and to the 
point: Among those of you who are NABCEP Certified PV Installers, what are your 
opinions about these two ideas? Any responses and discussion will make its way 
back to NABCEP - I'll see to that.
Thanks,
Allan
--
Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com

[Last post first; earlier posts follow]

Hi Allan,
As always it's great to "talk" with you. I want to correct a common 
misunderstanding about the qualifications to sit for the NABCEP Installer Exam. 
Nothing has changed with respect to experience. The person applying still needs 
to have been the person responsible for two PV systems sometime over the past 
two years. You are correct that some time ago we changed the wording to "some 
time within the past two years" this was to indicate that difference between 
two complete years of experience and two systems in the past two years (our 
actual requirement).

I can assure you that the likes of Bob-O keep us all very honest when it comes 
to watering down the qualifications to sit for the exam. The entire exam 
committee keeps their eye on not "dumbing down" the exam. They want the new 
achievers to work as hard as you and the other early adopters did.

I am not really in favour of the downloadable list because of the spam concerns 
but I'll happily accede to what the "Certs" want. I'd suggest an informal poll 
- RE Wrenches perhaps - trying to get some additional buy-in from Certificants. 
Again that's your call.

As to the date first Certified I don't think that should be too difficult but I 
hate to make promises before I speak the the folks who would actually do the 
work and find out from them how difficult or time consuming the task would be. 
I'm going to be in our office later this week and I'll keep you posted.
Best regards,
Ezra

Ezra Auerbach
Executive Director
eauerb...@nabcep.org
North American Board of Certified Energy Practitioners (NABCEP)
634 Plank Road
Clifton Park, N.Y. 12065
1 800 654 0021
1 518 670 4553 Direct
www.nabcep.org

On 2010-03-01, at 9:01 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
Ezra, Bob-O, Tim, Rex,
Wow! I appreciate the dialogue that my suggestions engendered, and the fast 
response.

Re the first issue, the national list: like Bob-O, I did not see spam potential 
as an issue, and I'm not knowledgeable enough about spam control to advise. I 
have observed that I get far fewer spam messages in my inbox than I did a few 
years ago - perhaps one or two a day, versus 15-20 maybe 4 years ago, and I 
haven't changed either email addresses or public visibility.

I would consider a national list to be a convenience more than a necessity. You 
are all aware that I am quite protective of proper use of the logo and any 
claims of certification - I have shared some of my efforts with you. But I have 
seldom been hindered by having to check state lists, so it's not a big deal for 
my needs - more a suggestion. Perhaps there are others

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP website ideas

[dave]

Allan and other NABCEP certs,

I say Yes to both the alphabetized full listing and year of cert.

I propose to list as follows: Name, home state, year certified, and date 
certification expires.

Dave Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
Hyde Park, VT

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[The Office of Tom Duffy]

Doug

I have to agree with you on the dubious value of certification testing as
any benchmark at all. Certification in any industry is a separate business,
and as such, sooner or later, becomes mostly about itself, given that,
fast-tracking installers is the next logical step into another useless layer
of bureaucracy.

Unfortunately for all of us in this day and age, in all industries, the
"certification industry" and the demands of the corporate world has given
rise to very expensive Certification Boot Camps and the like, qualifying
folks that don't know squat, and leaving really qualified folks out in the
non-corporate cold. 

This is the next step, just wait until Lowes, Home Depot or Wal-Mart wants
their installers to be "Certified". Don't think so? Just go into Wal-Mart's
auto department and check out the "Certified Mechanics" working for seven
bucks and hour. 

Sooner or later the Government steps in and says we all have to pony up the
big bucks and get certified or don't work at all, because governmental
agencies feel safe requiring folks to pass some sort of test. 

Next they'll want a bond too, and insurance which will drive up the costs to
the point that we don't have to worry about anyone being qualified to design
an off grid system, no one will be able to afford to buy one anyhow, at
least not from the little non-corporate installer.

Certification testing without real experience standards just proves someone
can cram and pass a test. It in no way proves that they know their a** from
a hole-in-the-ground.

I usually don't get this crazy, but this subject really bothers me, my
apologies 

  Tom Duffy
  t...@thesolar.biz
  575-539-2111 X 301

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Doug Wells
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:33 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

William,

I agree that the value of NABCEP is mixed.  I would like to think that  
it is still a benchmark.
To me the importance of NABCEP has not been the test, but the  
prerequisites to take the test.
A test is just a test and I have always felt that they have limited  
value.  But experience is different.
When I applied you had to have 3 years of experience installing(in my  
track).  And the jobs that you used had to be lead installs.
Not just, "yeah I was on a crew for a couple jobs.  Or I have "some  
experience" installing.  I feel it important to understand the job  
from beginning to end.
Design, Safety, Installs and Commissioning.
The more they water down the experience component to fast track eager  
installers, the less the certification will mean.

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[The Office of Tom Duffy]

  Tom Duffy
  Systems Design Engineer

 t...@thesolar.biz
   575-539-2111 X 301

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Doug Wells
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:33 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

William,

I agree that the value of NABCEP is mixed.  I would like to think that  
it is still a benchmark.
To me the importance of NABCEP has not been the test, but the  
prerequisites to take the test.
A test is just a test and I have always felt that they have limited  
value.  But experience is different.
When I applied you had to have 3 years of experience installing(in my  
track).  And the jobs that you used had to be lead installs.
Not just, "yeah I was on a crew for a couple jobs.  Or I have "some  
experience" installing.  I feel it important to understand the job  
from beginning to end.
Design, Safety, Installs and Commissioning.
The more they water down the experience component to fast track eager  
installers, the less the certification will mean.

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Doug Wells]

William,

I agree that the value of NABCEP is mixed.  I would like to think that  
it is still a benchmark.
To me the importance of NABCEP has not been the test, but the  
prerequisites to take the test.
A test is just a test and I have always felt that they have limited  
value.  But experience is different.
When I applied you had to have 3 years of experience installing(in my  
track).  And the jobs that you used had to be lead installs.
Not just, "yeah I was on a crew for a couple jobs.  Or I have "some  
experience" installing.  I feel it important to understand the job  
from beginning to end.

Design, Safety, Installs and Commissioning.
The more they water down the experience component to fast track eager  
installers, the less the certification will mean.


Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[August Goers]

William and Wrenches,

I've been following this post and thought I'd make a quick comment on the value 
of NABCEP certification. William, you mention below that NABCEP certification 
currently offers "no benefit" for you.

There are several benefits I've seen in being NABCEP certified. First, our 
company has been invited to bid on projects which require a minimum of one 
employee who is NABCEP certified. If we didn't have certified employees we 
wouldn't have even been invited to the party. In addition, I've been through 
the process and I found that just studying and preparing for the exam was 
helpful to keep me fresh and up to date. It's a good thing to have on my 
resume. In addition to that, I try to hire and encourage our employees to go 
for the certification. This is one way to improve our overall crew quality. If 
I wasn't personally certified I would have less clout when making management 
decisions with a NABCEP certified installer.

At the very least I've been contacted many times by people who found my name on 
the NABCEP website oftentimes resulting in new positive relationships.

-August



August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation
O: 415.564.7652
M: 415.559.1525
F: 650.244.9167

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 9:37 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

Tump:

I think we are in agreement here.  There needs to be some method to enable 
qualified installers and disable unqualified.

I don't think the issue is whether I support NABCEP's goals or not.  The issue 
is that regulators do not require some type of verification that a given 
installer can perform a safe installation.  If NABCEP certification were 
required, I would have it and those just dabbling in the trade would not.  This 
would be an improvement over the current situation.

Until this requirement becomes reality, acquiring NAPCEP certification has no 
benefit for me.

William Miller

At 07:03 AM 11/26/2009, you wrote:

Having worked for many years educating my clients, legislators and other 
officials of the value of a NABCEP certification,NABCEP IS important to me. I 
have invested many hours working w/ the early supporters, developing  a 
national certification program which morphed into the NABCEP program. I also 
work on various NABCEP committees working to insure NABCEP,the test & the test 
questions are relevant AND continue to address the real world of PV 
installations I personally find your lack of support for the NABCEP 
certification undermining.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid

[Dave Click]

> Speaking of IBEW, how
> about the installation done in Dorchester, Ma., do you mount your arrays
> vertically?

That (relatively small--5.4kW) array was installed vertically to improve 
its visibility from I-93. It was understood that vertical PV facing 
somewhat SE wouldn't have been as efficient as a 30 degree slope facing 
south, but visibility was more important than increasing the energy 
production by $60/yr.


DKC

 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid
From: Tump 
To: 'RE-wrenches' 
Date: 2009/11/26 10:03

Having worked for many years educating my clients, legislators and other 
officials of the value of a NABCEP certification,NABCEP IS important to 
me. I have invested many hours working w/ the early supporters, 
developing  a national certification program which morphed into the 
NABCEP program. I also work on various NABCEP committees working to 
insure NABCEP,the test & the test questions are relevant AND continue to 
address the real world of PV installations I personally find your lack 
of support for the NABCEP certification undermining.
Recently while developing new test questions for /_both on & off grid 
applications_/, myself & the installers working w/ NABCEP, the testing 
lab & some other HIGHLY qualified individuals got into a row about how 
tough we were making the entry level questions. "This isn't what those 
kids will know". The installers argued that NABCEP is the best 
benchmark & the test was a method of helping our industry weed out those 
people that want a easy transition into our/your solar world. We were 
finally able to convince the dissenters that the tough questions WERE 
the right way to go.
I think that many folks see the NABCEP program "a way in",the actual 
certification test is NOT an easy.
It is true that NOTHING will prevent some low balling jerk (NABCEP 
certified or not) from getting the job.
There are those of us who see the value in the certification, while the 
St. of Maine sees it (the NABCEP test) as too tough a test so what did 
they do? They have developed  one of their own tests,something that 
allows very poor quality of work to be accepted for rebate funds, (some 
of it performed by IBEW & licensed electricians). Speaking of IBEW, how 
about the installation done in Dorchester, Ma., do you mount your arrays 
vertically?
 Yeah I loose jobs too, because I charge a competitive rate,install a 
quality a product,value my insurance, both health & liability.I 
also value my reputation as someone that is considered "one of the 
better installers" in the state where I live & work!
There are many of us that have worked to improve the value of the 
NABCEP program, you may have seen my personal attack & praise of the 
NABCEP program.
I find presently that the increasing awareness of the NABCEP program 
comforting,BUT, I too find the lack of support from the industry & some 
States frustrating.
Certification is NOT for everyone, its expensive & time consuming but w/ 
continued interest from folks that may be on the fence & the continuing 
hard work marketing the certification program "as the one to have", we 
will continue to see the quality minded customer looking for that NABCEP 
certification.
Please review some of the questions on the test, perhaps one of these 
days you too will see the value of NABCEP & become one of the proud, 
frustrated NABCEP certificate holders.
Were you also someone that said that computers were too costly and a 
waste of time?

OK I've gotta go & saddle bend up my horse & ride off to turkey land...
 
*t...@swnl.net* <mailto:t...@swnl.net>_*www.SWNL.net* 
<http://www.swnl.net/>_
   Solarwinds Northernlights  
*/   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California

 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401/*
 
/*  Blair "TUMP" May*/

*/    MAINE'S CHARTER 
  _  NABCEP"Certified PV Installer"_/**/_
_  
    MAINE'S CHARTER 

   /**/_Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
_   /*
*/  /*

-Original Message-
*From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*William Miller
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:48 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

Friends:

I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:

1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd
normally lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the
test, but it won't.

2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered
electricians.  Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to
   

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP - grid tie---Off grid

[Tump]

Having worked for many years educating my clients, legislators and other
officials of the value of a NABCEP certification,NABCEP IS important to me.
I have invested many hours working w/ the early supporters, developing  a
national certification program which morphed into the NABCEP program. I also
work on various NABCEP committees working to insure NABCEP,the test & the
test questions are relevant AND continue to address the real world of PV
installations I personally find your lack of support for the NABCEP
certification undermining.
Recently while developing new test questions for both on & off grid
applications, myself & the installers working w/ NABCEP, the testing lab &
some other HIGHLY qualified individuals got into a row about how tough we
were making the entry level questions. "This isn't what those kids will
know". The installers argued that NABCEP is the best benchmark & the test
was a method of helping our industry weed out those people that want a easy
transition into our/your solar world. We were finally able to convince the
dissenters that the tough questions WERE the right way to go.
I think that many folks see the NABCEP program "a way in",the actual
certification test is NOT an easy.
It is true that NOTHING will prevent some low balling jerk (NABCEP certified
or not) from getting the job. 
There are those of us who see the value in the certification, while the St.
of Maine sees it (the NABCEP test) as too tough a test so what did they do?
They have developed  one of their own tests,something that allows very poor
quality of work to be accepted for rebate funds, (some of it performed by
IBEW & licensed electricians). Speaking of IBEW, how about the installation
done in Dorchester, Ma., do you mount your arrays vertically?
 Yeah I loose jobs too, because I charge a competitive rate,install a
quality a product,value my insurance, both health & liability.I also value
my reputation as someone that is considered "one of the better installers"
in the state where I live & work!
There are many of us that have worked to improve the value of the NABCEP
program, you may have seen my personal attack & praise of the NABCEP
program.
I find presently that the increasing awareness of the NABCEP program
comforting,BUT, I too find the lack of support from the industry & some
States frustrating.
Certification is NOT for everyone, its expensive & time consuming but w/
continued interest from folks that may be on the fence & the continuing hard
work marketing the certification program "as the one to have", we will
continue to see the quality minded customer looking for that NABCEP
certification.
Please review some of the questions on the test, perhaps one of these days
you too will see the value of NABCEP & become one of the proud, frustrated
NABCEP certificate holders.
Were you also someone that said that computers were too costly and a waste
of time?
OK I've gotta go & saddle bend up my horse & ride off to turkey land...
 
 <mailto:t...@swnl.net> t...@swnl.net <http://www.swnl.net/>
www.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401
 
  Blair "TUMP" May
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
   
  

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 2:48 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid


Friends:

I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:

1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it
won't.

2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.
Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic
grid tie system.  Conversely, many electricians with the most basic
electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known to design and
install solar-electric.  Wrong again.

I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force,
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded
electrician's skills.  How many solar installers can actually lay an offset
into a stick of EMT?  Not many.  Most are glorified stereo installers,
plugging and praying.

Respectfully,

William Miller


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

[Bob-O Schultze]

William,
Nice to meet you -however briefly- at the Solar Zoo in Anaheim.
If you don't see the value in being NABCEP certified, then you shouldn't bother 
with it. If your state- as more than a few have- decides to recognize it in 
some way that affects your pocket, then you'll likely change your mind PDQ. 
I've personally gotten one or two jobs that I know about because I was 
Certified and the other bidder was not, but our bids were very close in price. 
Low-ballers, like head lice, are just a nasty fact of life.
While I generally agree with you on your point #2, it varies a lot state to 
state. I'm licensed in CA and OR. While I understand the rules in CA are 
changing, enforcement is, and has always been, a joke. In OR, you need a 4000 
hour apprenticeship AND 256 hours of general electrical classroom time to get a 
Renewable Energy license. A general journeyman license is twice that. I've had 
inspectors come to our job site and check that everyone is licensed. In OR, you 
don't lay hands on a wire without a license. Ever hear of the like in CA? Maybe 
in the big cities, but nowhere else.
We're totally on the same page about the IBEW. If you understand that their 
goal is total domination of the electrical trade everywhere, a lot of how they 
operate makes sense. I'm a pro-Union kinda guy as a rule, but, like religion, 
too much of a thing is way worse than none.
As to experience with EMT and the like, again it varies state to state and 
certainly region to region. In this neck of the woods, if you can't bend an 
offset or saddle bend, you are either a new apprentice or unemployed.
Best, Bob-O

On Nov 24, 2009, at 11:48 PM, William Miller wrote:

Friends:

I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:

1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally 
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.

2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered electricians.  Until 
they learn the trade, they are not qualified to install the most basic grid tie 
system.  Conversely, many electricians with the most basic electrical skills 
think they know all that needs to be known to design and install 
solar-electric.  Wrong again.

I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by force, 
but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded 
electrician's skills.  How many solar installers can actually lay an offset 
into a stick of EMT?  Not many.  Most are glorified stereo installers, plugging 
and praying.

Respectfully,

William Miller

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

[William Miller]

Friends:

I'd like to make two brief points on the training/NABCEP debate:

1. If I thought NABCEP certification would get me one more job I'd normally 
lose to a low-ball bidder, I'd be inclined to sit for the test, but it won't.


2. Most solar electric installers could not be considered 
electricians.  Until they learn the trade, they are not qualified to 
install the most basic grid tie system.  Conversely, many electricians with 
the most basic electrical skills think they know all that needs to be known 
to design and install solar-electric.  Wrong again.


I don't support the IBEW concept of taking over the solar industry by 
force, but I do respect their concept of actually encouraging well rounded 
electrician's skills.  How many solar installers can actually lay an offset 
into a stick of EMT?  Not many.  Most are glorified stereo installers, 
plugging and praying.


Respectfully,

William Miller
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

[penobscotsolar]

I try to do more lurking here than participating, simply because there are
many experienced installers here with similar experience and knowledge. I
do agree with the earlier post that maintains the best experience with off
grid systems is living with off grid solar. Our office is 100% off grid as
was my home up to about 5 years ago when Maine made it more equitable to
be tied in.
That said, I will say that installations of straight grid tied systems 
require less knowledge and experience and therefore might, in my mind,
qualify as a "journeyman" type licensing by NABCEP. I do believe that any
electrician can learn to do code compliant grid tied systems in a fairly
short period of time.
 Full PV certification should involve both grid tie and off grid, in my
opinion. Our transition to grid tie was pretty much seamless, while fully
twenty years later I still find myself learning the in's and out's of
programming the newest and "best" equipment available to the off grid
world.
 I suspect this will not go over well with some but remember, it's just
one mans opinion. :-)

Daryl




> I have to agree. We have done off-grid for 30+ years, so it was a very
> simple transition for us to also do on-grid because the system design and
> configurations are much simpler.
>
> Over the past few years we have seen more mistakes by those that are only
> grid-tie familiar or certified when designing off-grid. I think the single
> most common mistake they make is to use the yearly average insolation
> instead of worst case. Other very common mistakes we see in the many
> systems
> we have refurbished or redesigned are failure to account for battery
> temperatures vs capacity and charging, proper battery sizing, and phantom
> loads.
>
> Apparently NABCEP does not go into off-grid systems very deeply, perhaps
> because the market is smaller and they can be much more complicated.
>
> ..
> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
> ..
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dana" 
> To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:40 AM
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid
>
>
>> Just got to weigh in on this one.
>>
>> It cracks me up to see the grid tie generation's attempts at off grid
>> design. It is such an experiential design mode. It can be conceptually
>> taught in a class. But it has to be lived to really be made whole. The
>> finer
>> OG designers I know have almost all lived off grid. It is like
>> transmission
>> repair mechanics! I used to do tune-ups and do a timing chain on
>> occasion
>> long ago, but fix a transmission, either automatic or manual, forget it,
>> not
>> me as it was to specialized.
>>
>> Perhaps you have a good idea here, Jay. I hate to see an additional
>> layer
>> added here but you bring a good point to light. I am currently the #4
>> designer to work on both a SHW and Grid tie with battery backups that do
>> not
>> work and the battery bank is cooked and was not large enough to do much
>> more
>> than a couple of hours of back up at most though the client was promised
>> that it would support the house for several days. It is sad to see
>> people
>> taken by NAPCEP Certified and non certified installer/designers who wade
>> in,
>> make more of a mess, charge a bucket load and wander off citing the
>> owner
>> is
>> asking too much.
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid

[wind...@wind-sun.com]

I have to agree. We have done off-grid for 30+ years, so it was a very 
simple transition for us to also do on-grid because the system design and 
configurations are much simpler.


Over the past few years we have seen more mistakes by those that are only 
grid-tie familiar or certified when designing off-grid. I think the single 
most common mistake they make is to use the yearly average insolation 
instead of worst case. Other very common mistakes we see in the many systems 
we have refurbished or redesigned are failure to account for battery 
temperatures vs capacity and charging, proper battery sizing, and phantom 
loads.


Apparently NABCEP does not go into off-grid systems very deeply, perhaps 
because the market is smaller and they can be much more complicated.


..
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979
Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/
..
- Original Message - 
From: "Dana" 

To: "'RE-wrenches'" 
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2009 9:40 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep - grid tie---Off grid



Just got to weigh in on this one.

It cracks me up to see the grid tie generation's attempts at off grid
design. It is such an experiential design mode. It can be conceptually
taught in a class. But it has to be lived to really be made whole. The 
finer
OG designers I know have almost all lived off grid. It is like 
transmission

repair mechanics! I used to do tune-ups and do a timing chain on occasion
long ago, but fix a transmission, either automatic or manual, forget it, 
not

me as it was to specialized.

Perhaps you have a good idea here, Jay. I hate to see an additional layer
added here but you bring a good point to light. I am currently the #4
designer to work on both a SHW and Grid tie with battery backups that do 
not
work and the battery bank is cooked and was not large enough to do much 
more

than a couple of hours of back up at most though the client was promised
that it would support the house for several days. It is sad to see people
taken by NAPCEP Certified and non certified installer/designers who wade 
in,
make more of a mess, charge a bucket load and wander off citing the owner 
is

asking too much.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] nabcep executive director

[Geoff Greenfield]

Attention all wrenches!  I just had lunch with Ezra and am pleased to confirm 
that this incredible power concentrated in the hands of one man has NOT gone to 
his head. 

I am confident that NABCEP will continue to fulfill it's important role as our 
industry evolves. Congrsts. 

For a brighter energy future,

Geoff Greenfield
President
Third Sun Solar & Wind Power Ltd.
340 West State Street, Unit 25
Athens, OH 45701

740.597.3111 Fax 740.597.1548
www.Third-Sun.com

Clean Energy - Expertly Installed






- boB Gudgel  wrote:
> paul wilkins wrote:
> > congratulations, ezra
> Gee... I thought Ezra ~WAS~   already the head of all NAPCEP  ??
> 
> Congrats anyhowz, Ezra !
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > ___
> > List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> >
> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >
> > Options & settings:
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List-Archive: 
> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> >
> > List rules & etiquette:
> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> >
> > Check out participant bios:
> > www.members.re-wrenches.org
> >
> >
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] nabcep executive director

[tump]

Kinda funny eh?
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-Original Message-
From: boB Gudgel 

Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:42:10 
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] nabcep executive director


paul wilkins wrote:
> congratulations, ezra
Gee... I thought Ezra ~WAS~   already the head of all NAPCEP  ??

Congrats anyhowz, Ezra !

boB




> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] nabcep executive director

[boB Gudgel]

paul wilkins wrote:

congratulations, ezra

Gee... I thought Ezra ~WAS~   already the head of all NAPCEP  ??

Congrats anyhowz, Ezra !

boB





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Jeff Yago]

I did not receive a lot of opinion on this matter, but there was no consensus 
nor even a majority of responses that were in favor of adding an otherwise 
non-qualified NABCEP staff person to this list server.

- - - - - -

Actually, I did respond and I was against it. Nothing personal, but I think it 
would start something that once opening the door it could not be closed again. 
Its not easy to get on this list and thats the way it should be. If you are not 
a wrench turner then you can still post on this list by having a wrench post 
anything you want for you. 

Jeff Yago

_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Bob-O Schultze]

For those of you who don't know, I sit on the NABCEP BoD as the PV  
Certificant representative and advocate. That would be y'all.
Frankly, I don't check into this list as often as I should, but any  
Certificants who have an issue, suggestion, gripe, or praise with  
NABCEP are welcome to contact me off list. bob- 
o...@electronconnection.com  Can't promise to resolve whatever your  
concern is, but I'll at least listen. Rebecca, BTW, is our Executive  
Director. While she isn't a Wrench, she is very committed and sharp.  
Policy and administrative sort of things are probably best directed  
towards her. Nuts, bolts, and Wrenchy things will probably get a  
better ear with me.

Cheers, Bob-O
On Feb 20, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Michael Welch wrote:

Hello Wrenches. If you have any questions, let's discuss off list.  
Thanks.


I did not receive a lot of opinion on this matter, but there was no  
consensus nor even a majority of responses that were in favor of  
adding an otherwise nonqualified NABCEP staff person to this list  
server.


Therefore, I am sticking with my original plan, which is quoted below  
from the message I sent about this last week.


Thanks to all that responded, now everyone can get off the edge of  
their seats.


Michael Welch wrote at 10:16 AM 2/13/2009:

I have offered Rebecca, and she accepted, the same thing I offer  
other nonqualified individuals that might some time want to post to  
the list: send your post to me, and I will post appropriate messages  
on their behalf. I have done this several times over the years and  
in fact, did it for Rebecca once already.


There are at least 3 NABCEP board members on this list. While they  
may not be prepared to respond with the nuts and bolts of NABCEP  
workings, it seems to me to be good representation on the list. At a  
minimum, these members could alert their staff, who could then  
respond through the already-available mechanism mentioned above.




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Michael Welch]

Hello Wrenches. If you have any questions, let's discuss off list. Thanks.

I did not receive a lot of opinion on this matter, but there was no consensus 
nor even a majority of responses that were in favor of adding an otherwise 
nonqualified NABCEP staff person to this list server.

Therefore, I am sticking with my original plan, which is quoted below from the 
message I sent about this last week.

Thanks to all that responded, now everyone can get off the edge of their seats.

Michael Welch wrote at 10:16 AM 2/13/2009:
 
>I have offered Rebecca, and she accepted, the same thing I offer other 
>nonqualified individuals that might some time want to post to the list: send 
>your post to me, and I will post appropriate messages on their behalf. I have 
>done this several times over the years and in fact, did it for Rebecca once 
>already.
>
>There are at least 3 NABCEP board members on this list. While they may not be 
>prepared to respond with the nuts and bolts of NABCEP workings, it seems to me 
>to be good representation on the list. At a minimum, these members could alert 
>their staff, who could then respond through the already-available mechanism 
>mentioned above.


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Michael Welch]

Off list, please...

I hope that everyone that wants to chime in on this will do so in the next few 
days.

Michael Welch wrote at 10:16 AM 2/13/2009:
 
>Hello Wrenches. As always, please contact me off list about this subject if 
>you would like to weigh in. 
>
>This is your list, and I run it by a consensus of your wishes. If any changes 
>are to be made, I have tried to at least come close to a consensus among the 
>Wrenches (not manufacturer reps) on the list. We now have a proposed change in 
>policy before us.
>
>I am being placed under pressure by Ezra Auerbach to add an otherwise 
>nonqualified NABCEP staff person, Rebecca Eaton, to the Wrench list so she may 
>respond on behalf of NABCEP if Wrenches are discussing anything to do with the 
>org.
>
>First, I often receive membership requests from nonqualified individuals. 
>Unless they are technically proficient, they are respectfully turned down, and 
>have included (among others): the general public, casual installers, 
>academics, trade organization staff, union staff, and now NABCEP staff. I 
>think you have clearly and appropriately drawn the line that we want pros on 
>this list in order to keep the discussion quality high. 
>
>Second, the only exceptions to this have been "technically proficient" 
>representatives of the companies that manufacture the equipment that you 
>Wrenches install -- and some time ago, we reached consensus to allow any fully 
>NABCEP-certified individual, working pro or not. Ezra believes that the 
>manufacturers' privilege should be extended to the NABCEP staff person.
>
>Third, I have offered Rebecca, and she accepted, the same thing I offer other 
>nonqualified individuals that might some time want to post to the list: send 
>your post to me, and I will post appropriate messages on their behalf. I have 
>done this several times over the years and in fact, did it for Rebecca once 
>already.
>
>Fourth, there are at least 3 NABCEP board members on this list. While they may 
>not be prepared to respond with the nuts and bolts of NABCEP workings, it 
>seems to me to be good representation on the list. At a minimum, these members 
>could alert their staff, who could then respond through the already-available 
>mechanism mentioned above.
>
>Until now, my efforts had been behind the scenes, but now it has come to a 
>head and I need to involve you because this morning I rejected a list post 
>from Ezra that was an end run around my off-list efforts. Here is that post:
>
>>Hello Wrenches,
>>
>>I'm writing to you all wearing my "Chairperson of NABCEP" hat and wishing to 
>>seek your collective guidance.
>>
>>The question is: Should the Executive Director of NABCEP be able to post to 
>>this list on matters germain to the organization?
>>
>>Following the NABCEP Rant thread our ED tried to get posting access so she 
>>could issue a timely and factual reply. She was turned down and as it stands 
>>today she can not post relevant and informative replies.
>>
>>A very long time ago this list allowed designated representatives from 
>>manufacturers on to this list so they could speak directly when appropriate 
>>and we all have learned good stuff from the ensuing dialogue.
>>
>>It seems ulitmately silly to me that NABCEP Certification "qualifies" for 
>>list posting access but being the ED of the organization does not.
>>
>>Please weigh in with your collective thoughts.
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>Ezra Auerbach


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Michael Welch]

Hi again gang. I also can put some of my own time into this to help make the 
organization yours.

If there is interest in getting this going, I would like to start a separate 
list server so folks can work on this without involving the entire Wrench list.

Joel  Davidson wrote at 10:40 AM 2/14/2009:
 
>Sounds good to me. Jeff, this is your baby. What do you think about cranking 
>up IPP http://www.i2p.org/ I have some time to volunteer.
>
>- Original Message - From: "Michael Welch" 
>
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:23 AM
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP
>
>
>>Folks. There is a nonprofit already formed with a mission that will fit these 
>>needs. It currently does not have the name mentioned, but that is easily 
>>remedied. It was started by Don Loweburg, Richard Perez, Bob-O Schultze, and 
>>I am not sure who else. It is called Independent Power Providers (for now).
>>
>>IPP is currently inactive, but is being kept alive by Don, with some support 
>>from myself. I2P is just waiting for somebody with the energy to make it into 
>>exactly what is being suggested here, or whatever.
>>
>>Note that it costs a fair amount of money, time, and effort to start a new 
>>nonprofit. If Wrenches want one, here it is.
>>
>>Jeff Yago wrote at 08:42 AM 2/14/2009:
>>
>>
>>>Joel,
>>>
>>>The following is a re-print of my posting of Jan 22,2008.  This explained 
>>>why I am trying to get a National Associaiton of Photovoltaic  Installers 
>>>(NAPVSI)started:
>>>
>>>Almost every home builder where you live will be a member of the
>>>National Association of Home Builders, not the association of home
>>>appliance manufacturers. The NAHB sponsors great educational programs
>>>for their building contractors, promotes the interests of the small
>>>contractor when dealing with government codes and regulations, and if
>>>anyone wants feedback on anything that could affect homebuilders, they
>>>contact the NAHB, not Lowes.
>>>
>>>Your local plumber will be a member of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling
>>>Contractors Association, and their web site says "Dedicated to the
>>>promotion, advancement, education and training of the industry".
>>>
>>>Your local contractor who installs custom home automation systems will
>>>be a member of the CEDIA, and their web site says - "Trade association
>>>for contractors specializing in planning and installing home cinema."
>>>
>>>Your local roofing contractor will be a member of the National Roofing
>>>Contractors Association (NRCA).
>>>
>>>Your local carpenter will be a member of the Carpenter Contractors
>>>Association (CCA), and their web site says- "The objectives and purpose of
>>>this Association shall be to foster the business of contractors employed
>>>in Carpenter construction."
>>>
>>>Your local bricklayer will be a member of the Mason Contractors
>>>Association of America (MCAA), and their web site says - "a national trade
>>>association representing masonry contractors in national legislative and
>>>political affairs, codes and standards composition, workforce
>>>development, education, market promotion and general advocacy."
>>>
>>>Your local flooring installer will be a member of the Flooring
>>>Contractors Association(FCICA) and their web site says -"It is our
>>>vision to promote and protect the best interest of floor covering
>>>contractors"
>>>
>>>Do we see a pattern here?I'm sorry, but I just do not know of any
>>>trade group out there that is just for solar installers, and feel like
>>>its way past time to start. I was really hoping NABCEP would help make
>>>this happen, either by adding this to their charter, or at least would
>>>offer to help us form the National Association of Solar Installers
>>>(NASI).
>>>
>>>Jeff Yago (Jan 22,2008)
>>
>>
>>___
>>List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
>>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>Options & settings:
>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>>List-Archive: 
>>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>>List rules & etiquette:
>>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>>Check out participant bios:
>>www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Joel Davidson]

Sounds good to me. Jeff, this is your baby. What do you think about cranking 
up IPP http://www.i2p.org/ I have some time to volunteer.


- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Welch" 

To: "RE-wrenches" 
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP


Folks. There is a nonprofit already formed with a mission that will fit 
these needs. It currently does not have the name mentioned, but that is 
easily remedied. It was started by Don Loweburg, Richard Perez, Bob-O 
Schultze, and I am not sure who else. It is called Independent Power 
Providers (for now).


IPP is currently inactive, but is being kept alive by Don, with some 
support from myself. I2P is just waiting for somebody with the energy to 
make it into exactly what is being suggested here, or whatever.


Note that it costs a fair amount of money, time, and effort to start a new 
nonprofit. If Wrenches want one, here it is.


Jeff Yago wrote at 08:42 AM 2/14/2009:



Joel,

The following is a re-print of my posting of Jan 22,2008.  This explained 
why I am trying to get a National Associaiton of Photovoltaic  Installers 
(NAPVSI)started:


Almost every home builder where you live will be a member of the
National Association of Home Builders, not the association of home
appliance manufacturers. The NAHB sponsors great educational programs
for their building contractors, promotes the interests of the small
contractor when dealing with government codes and regulations, and if
anyone wants feedback on anything that could affect homebuilders, they
contact the NAHB, not Lowes.

Your local plumber will be a member of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling
Contractors Association, and their web site says "Dedicated to the
promotion, advancement, education and training of the industry".

Your local contractor who installs custom home automation systems will
be a member of the CEDIA, and their web site says - "Trade association
for contractors specializing in planning and installing home cinema."

Your local roofing contractor will be a member of the National Roofing
Contractors Association (NRCA).

Your local carpenter will be a member of the Carpenter Contractors
Association (CCA), and their web site says- "The objectives and purpose of
this Association shall be to foster the business of contractors employed
in Carpenter construction."

Your local bricklayer will be a member of the Mason Contractors
Association of America (MCAA), and their web site says - "a national trade
association representing masonry contractors in national legislative and
political affairs, codes and standards composition, workforce
development, education, market promotion and general advocacy."

Your local flooring installer will be a member of the Flooring
Contractors Association(FCICA) and their web site says -"It is our
vision to promote and protect the best interest of floor covering
contractors"

Do we see a pattern here?I'm sorry, but I just do not know of any
trade group out there that is just for solar installers, and feel like
its way past time to start. I was really hoping NABCEP would help make
this happen, either by adding this to their charter, or at least would
offer to help us form the National Association of Solar Installers
(NASI).

Jeff Yago (Jan 22,2008)



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Michael Welch]

Folks. There is a nonprofit already formed with a mission that will fit these 
needs. It currently does not have the name mentioned, but that is easily 
remedied. It was started by Don Loweburg, Richard Perez, Bob-O Schultze, and I 
am not sure who else. It is called Independent Power Providers (for now).

IPP is currently inactive, but is being kept alive by Don, with some support 
from myself. I2P is just waiting for somebody with the energy to make it into 
exactly what is being suggested here, or whatever.

Note that it costs a fair amount of money, time, and effort to start a new 
nonprofit. If Wrenches want one, here it is.

Jeff Yago wrote at 08:42 AM 2/14/2009:
 

>Joel,
>
>The following is a re-print of my posting of Jan 22,2008.  This explained why 
>I am trying to get a National Associaiton of Photovoltaic  Installers 
>(NAPVSI)started:
>
>Almost every home builder where you live will be a member of the 
>National Association of Home Builders, not the association of home 
>appliance manufacturers. The NAHB sponsors great educational programs 
>for their building contractors, promotes the interests of the small 
>contractor when dealing with government codes and regulations, and if 
>anyone wants feedback on anything that could affect homebuilders, they 
>contact the NAHB, not Lowes.
>
>Your local plumber will be a member of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 
>Contractors Association, and their web site says "Dedicated to the 
>promotion, advancement, education and training of the industry".
>
>Your local contractor who installs custom home automation systems will 
>be a member of the CEDIA, and their web site says - "Trade association 
>for contractors specializing in planning and installing home cinema."
>
>Your local roofing contractor will be a member of the National Roofing 
>Contractors Association (NRCA).
>
>Your local carpenter will be a member of the Carpenter Contractors 
>Association (CCA), and their web site says- "The objectives and purpose of 
>this Association shall be to foster the business of contractors employed 
>in Carpenter construction." 
>
>Your local bricklayer will be a member of the Mason Contractors 
>Association of America (MCAA), and their web site says - "a national trade 
>association representing masonry contractors in national legislative and 
>political affairs, codes and standards composition, workforce 
>development, education, market promotion and general advocacy."
>
>Your local flooring installer will be a member of the Flooring 
>Contractors Association(FCICA) and their web site says -"It is our 
>vision to promote and protect the best interest of floor covering 
>contractors"
>
>Do we see a pattern here?I'm sorry, but I just do not know of any 
>trade group out there that is just for solar installers, and feel like 
>its way past time to start. I was really hoping NABCEP would help make 
>this happen, either by adding this to their charter, or at least would 
>offer to help us form the National Association of Solar Installers 
>(NASI).
>
>Jeff Yago (Jan 22,2008)


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Jeff Yago]

Joel,

The following is a re-print of my posting of Jan 22,2008.  This explained why I 
am trying to get a National Associaiton of Photovoltaic  Installers 
(NAPVSI)started:

Almost every home builder where you live will be a member of the 
National Association of Home Builders, not the association of home 
appliance manufacturers. The NAHB sponsors great educational programs 
for their building contractors, promotes the interests of the small 
contractor when dealing with government codes and regulations, and if 
anyone wants feedback on anything that could affect homebuilders, they 
contact the NAHB, not Lowes.

Your local plumber will be a member of the Plumbing-Heating-Cooling 
Contractors Association, and their web site says "Dedicated to the 
promotion, advancement, education and training of the industry".

Your local contractor who installs custom home automation systems will 
be a member of the CEDIA, and their web site says - "Trade association 
for contractors specializing in planning and installing home cinema."

Your local roofing contractor will be a member of the National Roofing 
Contractors Association (NRCA).

Your local carpenter will be a member of the Carpenter Contractors 
Association (CCA), and their web site says- "The objectives and purpose of 
this Association shall be to foster the business of contractors employed 
in Carpenter construction." 

Your local bricklayer will be a member of the Mason Contractors 
Association of America (MCAA), and their web site says - "a national trade 
association representing masonry contractors in national legislative and 
political affairs, codes and standards composition, workforce 
development, education, market promotion and general advocacy."

Your local flooring installer will be a member of the Flooring 
Contractors Association(FCICA) and their web site says -"It is our 
vision to promote and protect the best interest of floor covering 
contractors"

Do we see a pattern here?I'm sorry, but I just do not know of any 
trade group out there that is just for solar installers, and feel like 
its way past time to start. I was really hoping NABCEP would help make 
this happen, either by adding this to their charter, or at least would 
offer to help us form the National Association of Solar Installers 
(NASI).

Jeff Yago (Jan 22,2008)



_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Jeff Yago]

Last year I started a rant that we installers had no real trade association 
that looks out for the interests of solar installers. I pointed out that I felt 
SEIA spent most if its time related to the solar manufacturer's interests and 
congress. Yes, this is needed, but does not address our issues. I then 
suggested that NABCEP was perfectly positioned to create a spin-off or assist 
with starting a national trade association since they were the front door for 
the professional solar installer and probably received most of the initial 
contacts from new-bees. As you recall, I had my head handed to me from NABCEP 
who made it clear that they were a TESTING group, that their entire efforts 
were for TESTING, and they wanted nothing to do with installers after they 
passed their test. 

Yes, there are some very experienced solar installers on the board (Bob-O), but 
NABCEP made it pretty clear that as a entity, they wanted nothing to do with 
installers, installer issues, or anything to do with what happens after 
somebody passes their test. 

I take them at their word and say fine, you all stay with the testing process 
and we will form our own installers association that will deal with INSTALLER 
concerns. I say there is nothing wrong with letting the other NABCEP board 
members who are also on this list to post her comments, and I see no reason to 
allow someone to be an active member of a solar installer list just because 
they hold an office position in a testing group. I say if someone passes the 
NAPCEP test, actually goes out and sizes and installs a few systems on their 
own including hanging from a rope on a steep roof for many hours, then by all 
means they are welcome to our list!  As far as a few manufacturer's reps that 
were allowed on this list, I know most of them and know they paid their dues 
long before working for a manufacturer.  Does anyone think Chris at Outback is 
not qualified to provide installation advice?

Jeff Yago




_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design]

Hi Folks,

Please note that Michael asked us to give our vote offlist to him 
directly.  I will vote there.


Thanks!

Jeff C.



Thanks Michael for bringing this up.

I vote YES. Allow the ED of NABCEP being allowed on the list, until and
unless NABCEP gets a dedicated Wrench-head employee that can speak to the
sort of issues we come up with here. No holds barred. Same basic rules as
Manus. No marketing, no bashing others, stick to your corner, protect
yourself at all times, only one rep on the list. Michael is the referee and
you must obey his commands at all times.

The learning will go both ways. I see it as "tech support" and "field
feedback" for our industry credential. This differs GREATLY from allowing a
building inspector or fire fighter or other government dude. I think we all
want that credential to mean something, have value, and continue to improve.
As NABCEP grows, more and more credentials are being added. What used to be
the original "PV Practitioner" is now "PV Installer". There are "new"
credentials now and coming up... Entry Level PV, Thermal, Wind... Pretty
much covers what RE-Wrenches is about.

In a perfect world, I'm in favor of questions or concerns about NABCEP being
sent directly to NABCEP and having them post the questions & answers on an
FAQ or info page. That's not gonna happen and most everybody wouldn't read
them all anyway. This effectively means that there is a failure to share the
information with 265 (or so) other Wrenches who just happen to have a stake
in it, too. Whether or not they are "certified".

How many questions have been sent directly to NABCEP by Wrenches that are
identical to the one somebody already asked? Or how many aren't asked that
should be? Will asking and responding onlist prevent duplication and
minimize needless concerns? I believe so. Will valid concerns be voiced and
responded too for the benefit of all? I expect they will be. Should we be
sending questions about "price" on the list? No. NABCEP needs to maintain
clarity and deal with that internally.

I sincerely doubt that Rebecca or any future ED of NABCEP will spend a lot
of time monitoring the list and responding to stuff that doesn't apply
directly to NABCEP as an organization. Here, I'll prove it: Hey, Rebecca.
What do you think about 2008 NEC Article 230 and how it applies to PV
interconnections? (If she answers that one, I want to change my vote to NO)

We all know there have been many NABCEP conversations on this list over the
years. These have ranged from speculation to attaboys and complaints to
defense of the organization. In the past, some of the NABCEPers have been so
good as to forward Wrench conversations to the ED and have been allowed to
post the response. I believe that the responses have been helpful and
appropriate every time that I remember. Why should the 3rd party have to do
this? Why can't it be straight to the horse and straight back from the
horse's mouth?

Frankly, I don't believe that Ezra or the other board members should be
expected or required to answer on behalf of the organization or to forward a
conversation and wait for a reply. I sit on a tech committee with a couple
other Wrenches, and I ain't about to speak on behalf of the organization.

NABCEP is of, to, by, and for Wrenches. Always has been. Let's keep it that
way.

$0.020001,

Matt Lafferty
gilliga...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Welch
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:16 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

Hello Wrenches. As always, please contact me off list about this subject if
you would like to weigh in.

This is your list, and I run it by a consensus of your wishes. If any
changes are to be made, I have tried to at least come close to a consensus
among the Wrenches (not manufacturer reps) on the list. We now have a
proposed change in policy before us.

I am being placed under pressure by Ezra Auerbach to add an otherwise
nonqualified NABCEP staff person, Rebecca Eaton, to the Wrench list so she
may respond on behalf of NABCEP if Wrenches are discussing anything to do
with the org.

First, I often receive membership requests from nonqualified individuals.
Unless they are technically proficient, they are respectfully turned down,
and have included (among others): the general public, casual installers,
academics, trade organization staff, union staff, and now NABCEP staff. I
think you have clearly and appropriately drawn the line that we want pros on
this list in order to keep the discussion quality high.

Second, the only exceptions to this have been "technically proficient"
representatives of the companies that manufacture the equipment that you
Wrenches install -- and some time ago, we reached consensus to allow any
fully NABCEP-certified individual, working pro or not. Ezra believes that
the manufacturers' privilege should be extended

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Matt Lafferty]

Thanks Michael for bringing this up.

I vote YES. Allow the ED of NABCEP being allowed on the list, until and
unless NABCEP gets a dedicated Wrench-head employee that can speak to the
sort of issues we come up with here. No holds barred. Same basic rules as
Manus. No marketing, no bashing others, stick to your corner, protect
yourself at all times, only one rep on the list. Michael is the referee and
you must obey his commands at all times.

The learning will go both ways. I see it as "tech support" and "field
feedback" for our industry credential. This differs GREATLY from allowing a
building inspector or fire fighter or other government dude. I think we all
want that credential to mean something, have value, and continue to improve.
As NABCEP grows, more and more credentials are being added. What used to be
the original "PV Practitioner" is now "PV Installer". There are "new"
credentials now and coming up... Entry Level PV, Thermal, Wind... Pretty
much covers what RE-Wrenches is about.

In a perfect world, I'm in favor of questions or concerns about NABCEP being
sent directly to NABCEP and having them post the questions & answers on an
FAQ or info page. That's not gonna happen and most everybody wouldn't read
them all anyway. This effectively means that there is a failure to share the
information with 265 (or so) other Wrenches who just happen to have a stake
in it, too. Whether or not they are "certified".

How many questions have been sent directly to NABCEP by Wrenches that are
identical to the one somebody already asked? Or how many aren't asked that
should be? Will asking and responding onlist prevent duplication and
minimize needless concerns? I believe so. Will valid concerns be voiced and
responded too for the benefit of all? I expect they will be. Should we be
sending questions about "price" on the list? No. NABCEP needs to maintain
clarity and deal with that internally. 

I sincerely doubt that Rebecca or any future ED of NABCEP will spend a lot
of time monitoring the list and responding to stuff that doesn't apply
directly to NABCEP as an organization. Here, I'll prove it: Hey, Rebecca.
What do you think about 2008 NEC Article 230 and how it applies to PV
interconnections? (If she answers that one, I want to change my vote to NO)

We all know there have been many NABCEP conversations on this list over the
years. These have ranged from speculation to attaboys and complaints to
defense of the organization. In the past, some of the NABCEPers have been so
good as to forward Wrench conversations to the ED and have been allowed to
post the response. I believe that the responses have been helpful and
appropriate every time that I remember. Why should the 3rd party have to do
this? Why can't it be straight to the horse and straight back from the
horse's mouth?

Frankly, I don't believe that Ezra or the other board members should be
expected or required to answer on behalf of the organization or to forward a
conversation and wait for a reply. I sit on a tech committee with a couple
other Wrenches, and I ain't about to speak on behalf of the organization. 

NABCEP is of, to, by, and for Wrenches. Always has been. Let's keep it that
way.

$0.020001, 

Matt Lafferty
gilliga...@gmail.com

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Welch
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:16 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

Hello Wrenches. As always, please contact me off list about this subject if
you would like to weigh in. 

This is your list, and I run it by a consensus of your wishes. If any
changes are to be made, I have tried to at least come close to a consensus
among the Wrenches (not manufacturer reps) on the list. We now have a
proposed change in policy before us.

I am being placed under pressure by Ezra Auerbach to add an otherwise
nonqualified NABCEP staff person, Rebecca Eaton, to the Wrench list so she
may respond on behalf of NABCEP if Wrenches are discussing anything to do
with the org.

First, I often receive membership requests from nonqualified individuals.
Unless they are technically proficient, they are respectfully turned down,
and have included (among others): the general public, casual installers,
academics, trade organization staff, union staff, and now NABCEP staff. I
think you have clearly and appropriately drawn the line that we want pros on
this list in order to keep the discussion quality high. 

Second, the only exceptions to this have been "technically proficient"
representatives of the companies that manufacture the equipment that you
Wrenches install -- and some time ago, we reached consensus to allow any
fully NABCEP-certified individual, working pro or not. Ezra believes that
the manufacturers' privilege should be extended to the NABCEP staff person.

Third, I have offered Rebecca, and she accepted, the same thing I offer
other nonqualified indiv

Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP

[Joel Davidson]

Hello Michael,

I think that only technically proficient people should be allowed to post 
directly to RE-wrenches. Wrench concerns about NABCEP will continue along 
with our concerns about UL, NFPA/NEC, CSI, DOE, IRS, etc. because they 
affect our daily work.  I don't think that it has ever been a problem for 
someone not on the list to get something posted by you, Ezra, Bob-O, and 
others. The free flow of information, ideas, and opinions from "them that's 
doing" is what makes RE-wrenches one of the best RE exchanges on the 
internet.


Thank you for keep the quality technical exchange high and for reining me 
and others in when we get off-subject.


Joel Davidson

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Welch" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:16 AM
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP


Hello Wrenches. As always, please contact me off list about this subject 
if you would like to weigh in.


This is your list, and I run it by a consensus of your wishes. If any 
changes are to be made, I have tried to at least come close to a consensus 
among the Wrenches (not manufacturer reps) on the list. We now have a 
proposed change in policy before us.


I am being placed under pressure by Ezra Auerbach to add an otherwise 
nonqualified NABCEP staff person, Rebecca Eaton, to the Wrench list so she 
may respond on behalf of NABCEP if Wrenches are discussing anything to do 
with the org.


First, I often receive membership requests from nonqualified individuals. 
Unless they are technically proficient, they are respectfully turned down, 
and have included (among others): the general public, casual installers, 
academics, trade organization staff, union staff, and now NABCEP staff. I 
think you have clearly and appropriately drawn the line that we want pros 
on this list in order to keep the discussion quality high.


Second, the only exceptions to this have been "technically proficient" 
representatives of the companies that manufacture the equipment that you 
Wrenches install -- and some time ago, we reached consensus to allow any 
fully NABCEP-certified individual, working pro or not. Ezra believes that 
the manufacturers' privilege should be extended to the NABCEP staff 
person.


Third, I have offered Rebecca, and she accepted, the same thing I offer 
other nonqualified individuals that might some time want to post to the 
list: send your post to me, and I will post appropriate messages on their 
behalf. I have done this several times over the years and in fact, did it 
for Rebecca once already.


Fourth, there are at least 3 NABCEP board members on this list. While they 
may not be prepared to respond with the nuts and bolts of NABCEP workings, 
it seems to me to be good representation on the list. At a minimum, these 
members could alert their staff, who could then respond through the 
already-available mechanism mentioned above.


Until now, my efforts had been behind the scenes, but now it has come to a 
head and I need to involve you because this morning I rejected a list post 
from Ezra that was an end run around my off-list efforts. Here is that 
post:



Hello Wrenches,

I'm writing to you all wearing my "Chairperson of NABCEP" hat and wishing 
to seek your collective guidance.


The question is: Should the Executive Director of NABCEP be able to post 
to this list on matters germain to the organization?


Following the NABCEP Rant thread our ED tried to get posting access so she 
could issue a timely and factual reply. She was turned down and as it 
stands today she can not post relevant and informative replies.


A very long time ago this list allowed designated representatives from 
manufacturers on to this list so they could speak directly when 
appropriate and we all have learned good stuff from the ensuing dialogue.


It seems ulitmately silly to me that NABCEP Certification "qualifies" for 
list posting access but being the ED of the organization does not.


Please weigh in with your collective thoughts.

Best regards,

Ezra Auerbach



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org