Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Ron Young]

Hello all,
Report from my last visit and some generator forensics. The 240v  
generator plug was wired for only one leg and terminated at another  
plugbox on the wall of the shed. This other plugbox had basically  
fried internally and when disassembled pretty much came apart,  
carbonized wires. So when I measured the output from the genset under  
load, at the generator it appeared ok. When the voltage was measured  
at the FX terminals, with no load, it was ok but as soon as a load  
was applied the voltage began cycling up and down, presumably as the  
resistance in the generator wall plug increased. The attempt of the  
FX to connect AC-In was immediately dropped as the load of the  
charger kicked in, thus the click after 20 secs. as it attempted to  
connect then dropped the connection.


I re-wired the genset plug for both legs then wired it into an  
Outback FW-X240 to balance the output into the FX and everything is  
now working A-OK. Although the system had previously been working for  
several months the eventual deterioration of the wiring in the  
plugbox on the wall led to it's downfall because the FX was only  
getting half the output from a 3800w generator at best. The generator  
was improperly wired, by the homeowner presumably, and could have led  
to a fire. I just wish I had spotted this problem on the first visit  
but working in a dark outdoor shed with a headlight in -25 C temps  
has it's limitations.


Thanks to everyone for your input and may the New Year bring us all  
the sun, wind and water we need to green the planet.


Ron Young
earthRight - Solareagle


On 31-Dec-08, at 10:43 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote:


HI all and Ron
In my previous post I said the inverter FET board, I am wrong, it  
would have to be the AC board or the generator is running out of  
frequency spec.


Place a load on the generator, so it runs in power note idle, use  
your meter to measure the generator frequency, set the inverter to  
not charge, have no load on the output of the inverter, Try as you  
have done.  The inverter should connect offering very little load.   
If the same effect, measure the surge current to the inverter using  
your meter.  I think the surge should be very minimul.


Darryl


--- On Tue, 12/30/08, R Young  wrote:


From: R Young 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
To: "Christopher Freitas" , "RE- 
wrenches" 

Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:29 AM
Hi Chris,
My answers appear below:

On 29-Dec-08, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:

When you tested just the inverter without the

generator running – you stated that there was a noticeable
flicker every 20 seconds –

THE GENERATOR WAS RUNNING, IT'S JUST THAT I TURNED OFF
ALL THE LOADS TO SEE IF THE PROBLEM WOULD PERSIST AND I
FOUND THAT THE RAPID CYCLING OF THE VOLTAGE AT INPUTS QUIT
AND THE VOLTAGE STABILIZED AT ~121V BUT ABOUT EVERY 20
SECONDS, JUST WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THE AC-IN TO GET PICKED
UP BY THE INVERTER THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIBLE CLICK, THE
VOLTAGE WOULD SUDDENLY DROP TO ABOUT 110V, THEN IMMEDIATELY
RECOVER TO ~121V. AT NO TIME DID THE AC-IN GET PICKED UP.


When the generator was connected to the inverter –

was the varying AC input voltage viewed on a digital test
meter or on the MATE’s display?

I WAS MEASURING THE AC INPUT VOLTAGE WITH A FLUKE METER AT
THE INPUT CONNECTORS ON THE FX.


Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator

operating with only one inverter on it?  It is possible that
an internal connection in the generators windings has fried
due to overloading one output leg of the generator – its
similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage is OK until
current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try
putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the
same issue.

THIS IS A POSSIBILITY THAT I WILL LOOK INTO. IT IS RUNNING
ON ONE LEG OF A 240V GENSET, NOT THE IDEAL SITUATION.
I'LL BE PUTTING A PSX240 ON IT TO BALANCE THE OUTPUT BUT
WILL FIRST CHECK TO SEE IF IT WILL RUN OK ON THE OTHER LEG
BY ITSELF.



Be sure to check the frequency of the generator when

seeing issues like this – its often the problem.




THAT'S ON THE SHORT LIST, THANKS

Thanks all who have offered suggestions, I'll check
back in with whatever I find out.

Ron Young
earthright - Solareagle






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Darryl Thayer]

HI all and Ron
In my previous post I said the inverter FET board, I am wrong, it would have to 
be the AC board or the generator is running out of frequency spec.  

Place a load on the generator, so it runs in power note idle, use your meter to 
measure the generator frequency, set the inverter to not charge, have no load 
on the output of the inverter, Try as you have done.  The inverter should 
connect offering very little load.  If the same effect, measure the surge 
current to the inverter using your meter.  I think the surge should be very 
minimul.  

Darryl


--- On Tue, 12/30/08, R Young  wrote:

> From: R Young 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
> To: "Christopher Freitas" , "RE-wrenches" 
> 
> Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:29 AM
> Hi Chris,
> My answers appear below:
> 
> On 29-Dec-08, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:
> > When you tested just the inverter without the
> generator running – you stated that there was a noticeable
> flicker every 20 seconds –
> 
> THE GENERATOR WAS RUNNING, IT'S JUST THAT I TURNED OFF
> ALL THE LOADS TO SEE IF THE PROBLEM WOULD PERSIST AND I
> FOUND THAT THE RAPID CYCLING OF THE VOLTAGE AT INPUTS QUIT
> AND THE VOLTAGE STABILIZED AT ~121V BUT ABOUT EVERY 20
> SECONDS, JUST WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THE AC-IN TO GET PICKED
> UP BY THE INVERTER THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIBLE CLICK, THE
> VOLTAGE WOULD SUDDENLY DROP TO ABOUT 110V, THEN IMMEDIATELY
> RECOVER TO ~121V. AT NO TIME DID THE AC-IN GET PICKED UP.
> > 
> > When the generator was connected to the inverter –
> was the varying AC input voltage viewed on a digital test
> meter or on the MATE’s display?
> 
> I WAS MEASURING THE AC INPUT VOLTAGE WITH A FLUKE METER AT
> THE INPUT CONNECTORS ON THE FX.
> > 
> > Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator
> operating with only one inverter on it?  It is possible that
> an internal connection in the generators windings has fried
> due to overloading one output leg of the generator – its
> similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage is OK until
> current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try
> putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the
> same issue.
> 
> THIS IS A POSSIBILITY THAT I WILL LOOK INTO. IT IS RUNNING
> ON ONE LEG OF A 240V GENSET, NOT THE IDEAL SITUATION.
> I'LL BE PUTTING A PSX240 ON IT TO BALANCE THE OUTPUT BUT
> WILL FIRST CHECK TO SEE IF IT WILL RUN OK ON THE OTHER LEG
> BY ITSELF.
> 
> > 
> > Be sure to check the frequency of the generator when
> seeing issues like this – its often the problem.
> > 
> 
> THAT'S ON THE SHORT LIST, THANKS
> 
> Thanks all who have offered suggestions, I'll check
> back in with whatever I find out.
> 
> Ron Young
> earthright - Solareagle
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Darryl Thayer]

HI all and Ron
Hope you find the answer soon as this is a puzzelment to me.  

My take, if the generator is running and there is an audiable click, the 
voltage drops and probibly the frequency the inverter would correctly release 
the generator, the generator would recover and then the inverter tries again.  
If the AC-in max charge current is set very low, or even off, the inverter must 
be loading the AC-in beyond the generators capability, which means the 
generator is on idle or not a generator problem. If the generator is running on 
idle then it would need some fixed load to make it run on power.  

If it is the inverter either the inverter is picking up load on AC-out or it is 
backing feeding to AC in or the inverter has a bad board.  Assuming the 
inverter is not backfeeding itself, or the inverter is not feeding a short or 
extreamly large load, then the Inverter FET? board must be shorted.

Darryl 

--- On Mon, 12/29/08, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:

> From: Kirpal Khalsa 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 10:07 PM
> Hi Ron, Jay and all...It is easy to blame the generator
> because it is
> usually the generator causing the problem.One thing
> that we have run
> into on occasion is that the generator has been re-adjusted
> and tuned up but
> that the generator repair person does this only at an idle
> load.We now
> always make sure that when our customers are having their
> generators tuned
> up that also included in the tune up is that the generator
> is able to hold
> its voltage and frequency at a minimum of 3/4 of the rated
> load
> capacityThis has solved a few of our generator 
> connection
> issues...just one idea.
> Might be worth while to test the generator under these
> parameters as this
> would affect the the acceptance by the VFX.
> Cheers,
> Kirpal
> 
> On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 PM, jay peltz
>  wrote:
> 
> > HI Christopher,
> > I don't know if this is similar.
> >
> > I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at
> 120v.  Being fed from a
> > 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is
> a Onan 8.5kw.  (
> > don't ask why its a long story)
> >
> > Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.
> >
> > When you start the generator, the inverter will
> connect, AC voltage will
> > rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and
> the cycle repeats.
> >
> > Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few
> lights ( could
> > be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150
> watts worth, and then turn on
> > the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the AC
> spike. But a small motor
> > spike, such as a Rotozip etc will kick out the
> generator, and then it starts
> > again.
> >
> > Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help,
> unless you turn it down
> > a lot.
> > The generator has a new board and was tested out as
> OK.
> >
> > If you run the house directly from the generator no
> problems. You can run
> > large loads no problem.
> > If you run the house directly from the inverter all is
> good.
> >
> > Only issue is with genny/inv interface.
> >
> > Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.
> >
> > Do you think this is a related problem?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > jay
> >
> > peltz power
> >  On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas
> wrote:
> >
> >   Ron –
> >
> >
> > Tech support is open today and should be able to help
> you troubleshoot this
> > in a step-by-step process that will discover the root
> problem.
> >
> >
> > I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events
> and have the
> > following questions and comments:
> >
> >
> > When you tested just the inverter without the
> generator running – you
> > stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20
> seconds – did you also
> > notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light
> would blink and then turn solid
> > momentarily?  This usually indicates that there is a
> cross connection of the
> > inverter's AC output with the AC input wiring –
> which can be caused by many
> > different problems (nicked or chewed wires, water
> filled junction box or
> > conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load, etc. – or an
> internal problem with the
> > inverter).  In a nutshell – the inverter is
> "seeing" its own AC output at
> > its AC input – so it connects and then tries to
> charge from itself – which
> > causes the AC

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Christopher Freitas]

Hey Jay - 

 

I have seen this type of problem before - but it was with Kohler
generators and the old SW series.   They use a voltage regulation system
which actually increases the AC output voltage along with the AC load
level - they call it "power boost" and it is intended to offset the
voltage drop in the wiring from the generator to the loads.  Usually
this is a good feature to have - but under some situations it can be a
problem - such as when the inverter and generator are close together and
the Generator's AC output voltage is set close to the limit of the
inverter.  Maybe the larger Onan's have a similar system.  

 

I think that the CFL lights are making a difference at very light load
levels because they really only draw power for a very short time from
the peak of the waveform - which causes the RMS voltage to drop.  Then
as the inverter loads up the generator the voltage rises again and its
dropped.  Even though the CFLs are a small total wattage AC load they
draw power in a very brief instant - so they are more like a 1500 watt
AC load which surges on each cycle for just a very brief instance (less
than 1 millisecond usually - depends on the design of the CFL's power
supply).  Often the AC voltage waveform of an unloaded generator can be
extremely non-sinusoidal without any operating.  Unfortunately this
requires an oscilloscope to check and even then there is not much which
can be done if it is ugly.  

 

I would check the AC voltage on the generator with a hand held true-RMS
meter and also with the MATE with the charger set to "OFF" (via the
MATE).  I would also increase the AC Input Maximum Voltage setting to at
least 140VAC.  Then enable the charger again and watch the AC input
voltage on both the hand held meter and on the MATE itself.  

 

You might be able to have the customer check the AC input voltage level
(with the charger on and off) and adjust the AC input maximum limit over
the phone if that is possible - saving you a trip to the site perhaps.  

 

You also might need to adjust the calibration of the inverter's AC input
measurement - again this is done with the MATE in the "CAL" menu
section. 

 

I hope this helps!

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

cfrei...@outbackpower.com  

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com  

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Drake Chamberlin]

At 02:29 AM 12/30/2008, you wrote:
BUT ABOUT EVERY 20 SECONDS, JUST WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THE AC-IN TO 
GET PICKED UP BY THE INVERTER THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIBLE CLICK, THE 
VOLTAGE WOULD SUDDENLY DROP TO ABOUT 110V, THEN IMMEDIATELY RECOVER 
TO ~121V. AT NO TIME DID THE AC-IN GET PICKED UP.



The drop in voltage usually indicates that the inverter is trying to 
pick up the generator.  Are you certain that the inverter is not 
grabbing the generator's AC input, slowing the rpms and then letting 
it go of the gen feed because the frequency is knocked out of spec?



Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648  



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[R Young]

Hi Chris,
My answers appear below:

On 29-Dec-08, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:
When you tested just the inverter without the generator running –  
you stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds –


THE GENERATOR WAS RUNNING, IT'S JUST THAT I TURNED OFF ALL THE LOADS  
TO SEE IF THE PROBLEM WOULD PERSIST AND I FOUND THAT THE RAPID  
CYCLING OF THE VOLTAGE AT INPUTS QUIT AND THE VOLTAGE STABILIZED AT  
~121V BUT ABOUT EVERY 20 SECONDS, JUST WHEN YOU WOULD EXPECT THE AC- 
IN TO GET PICKED UP BY THE INVERTER THERE WOULD BE AN AUDIBLE CLICK,  
THE VOLTAGE WOULD SUDDENLY DROP TO ABOUT 110V, THEN IMMEDIATELY  
RECOVER TO ~121V. AT NO TIME DID THE AC-IN GET PICKED UP.


When the generator was connected to the inverter – was the varying  
AC input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE’s  
display?


I WAS MEASURING THE AC INPUT VOLTAGE WITH A FLUKE METER AT THE INPUT  
CONNECTORS ON THE FX.


Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator operating with only  
one inverter on it?  It is possible that an internal connection in  
the generators windings has fried due to overloading one output leg  
of the generator – its similar to a bad solder joint where the  
voltage is OK until current is pulled and then it opens up.  You  
might try putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see  
the same issue.


THIS IS A POSSIBILITY THAT I WILL LOOK INTO. IT IS RUNNING ON ONE LEG  
OF A 240V GENSET, NOT THE IDEAL SITUATION. I'LL BE PUTTING A PSX240  
ON IT TO BALANCE THE OUTPUT BUT WILL FIRST CHECK TO SEE IF IT WILL  
RUN OK ON THE OTHER LEG BY ITSELF.




Be sure to check the frequency of the generator when seeing issues  
like this – its often the problem.




THAT'S ON THE SHORT LIST, THANKS

Thanks all who have offered suggestions, I'll check back in with  
whatever I find out.


Ron Young
earthright - Solareagle






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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[boB Gudgel]

jay peltz wrote:

Hi Kirpal,

I understand and have sure seen lots of "fixed" generators that we not 
fixed.
The guy who sells most of the generators I use used to be at Stanford 
labs, smart guy.


I agree but I have never seen this type of problem, that is "fixed" by 
turning on a few lights.


And to be clear, this isn't to allow the generator to connect, it 
connects just fine, but once connected the AC voltage will rise  quite 
quickly and then once it goes above the max input setpoint the 
inverter kicks it out of course.


I just don't understand how turning on a few lights would stop this 
from happening?


jay 
peltz power




I can sorta see how this pre-loading the generator could work... Maybe...

If the generator is already fairly well loaded down, it's not as 
susceptible to having to regulate and change RPMs

so much when another, smaller load like a charger is added to it.

Jay, what do you mean when you say the AC voltage will rise ?  You mean 
the generator voltage rises when it gets loaded ?

OK then, maybe Kirpal's method might just work for that.

Also, inductors tend to filter better with more current.   Remember the 
old SW ??  It did the same thing.  The more load you gave it, the
smoother the little steps were.  Related ?...   I have no idea, but it 
sounds good to me, that is, if there is an inductor somewhere in the 
circuit.


boB





On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:07 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:

Hi Ron, Jay and all...It is easy to blame the generator because 
it is usually the generator causing the problem.One thing 
that we have run into on occasion is that the generator has been 
re-adjusted and tuned up but that the generator repair person does 
this only at an idle load.We now always make sure that when our 
customers are having their generators tuned up that also included in 
the tune up is that the generator is able to hold its voltage and 
frequency at a minimum of 3/4 of the rated load capacityThis 
has solved a few of our generator  connection issues...just 
one idea.
Might be worth while to test the generator under these parameters as 
this would affect the the acceptance by the VFX.

Cheers,
Kirpal

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 PM, jay peltz > wrote:


HI Christopher,

I don't know if this is similar.

I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at 120v.  Being
fed from a 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is
a Onan 8.5kw.  ( don't ask why its a long story)

Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.

When you start the generator, the inverter will connect, AC
voltage will rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and
the cycle repeats.

Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few lights (
could be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150 watts worth,
and then turn on the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the
AC spike. But a small motor spike, such as a Rotozip etc will
kick out the generator, and then it starts again.

Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help, unless you
turn it down a lot.
The generator has a new board and was tested out as OK.  


If you run the house directly from the generator no problems. You
can run large loads no problem.
If you run the house directly from the inverter all is good.

Only issue is with genny/inv interface.

Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.  


Do you think this is a related problem?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:


Ron –

 


Tech support is open today and should be able to help you
troubleshoot this in a step-by-step process that will discover


the root problem. 

 


I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have
the following questions and comments: 

 


When you tested just the inverter without the generator running
– you stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20
seconds – did you also notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light
would blink and then turn solid momentarily?  This usually
indicates that there is a cross connection of the inverter's AC
output with the AC input wiring – which can be caused by many
different problems (nicked or chewed wires, water filled
junction box or conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load, etc. – or
an internal problem with the inverter).  In a nutshell – the
inverter is "seeing" its own AC output at its AC input – so it
connects and then tries to charge from itself – which causes the
AC output voltage to decrease – and then it drops the AC source
for another 20 seconds – over and over…

 


When the generator was connected to the inverter – was the
varying AC input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on
the MATE's display?   The voltage display on the MATE will vary
until the inverter has actually c

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[jay peltz]

Hi Kirpal,


I understand and have sure seen lots of "fixed" generators that we not  
fixed.
The guy who sells most of the generators I use used to be at Stanford  
labs, smart guy.


I agree but I have never seen this type of problem, that is "fixed" by  
turning on a few lights.


And to be clear, this isn't to allow the generator to connect, it  
connects just fine, but once connected the AC voltage will rise  quite  
quickly and then once it goes above the max input setpoint the  
inverter kicks it out of course.


I just don't understand how turning on a few lights would stop this  
from happening?


jay
peltz power


On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:07 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:

Hi Ron, Jay and all...It is easy to blame the generator because  
it is usually the generator causing the problem.One thing  
that we have run into on occasion is that the generator has been re- 
adjusted and tuned up but that the generator repair person does this  
only at an idle load.We now always make sure that when our  
customers are having their generators tuned up that also included in  
the tune up is that the generator is able to hold its voltage and  
frequency at a minimum of 3/4 of the rated load capacityThis  
has solved a few of our generator  connection issues...just  
one idea.
Might be worth while to test the generator under these parameters as  
this would affect the the acceptance by the VFX.

Cheers,
Kirpal

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 6:14 PM, jay peltz  wrote:
HI Christopher,

I don't know if this is similar.

I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at 120v.  Being fed  
from a 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is a Onan  
8.5kw.  ( don't ask why its a long story)


Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.

When you start the generator, the inverter will connect, AC voltage  
will rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and the cycle  
repeats.


Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few lights ( could  
be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150 watts worth, and then  
turn on the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the AC spike. But  
a small motor spike, such as a Rotozip etc will kick out the  
generator, and then it starts again.


Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help, unless you turn  
it down a lot.

The generator has a new board and was tested out as OK.

If you run the house directly from the generator no problems. You  
can run large loads no problem.

If you run the house directly from the inverter all is good.

Only issue is with genny/inv interface.

Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.

Do you think this is a related problem?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:


Ron –

Tech support is open today and should be able to help you  
troubleshoot this in a step-by-step process that will discover the  
root problem.


I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have the  
following questions and comments:


When you tested just the inverter without the generator running –  
you stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds –  
did you also notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light would blink  
and then turn solid momentarily?  This usually indicates that there  
is a cross connection of the inverter's AC output with the AC input  
wiring – which can be caused by many different problems (nicked or  
chewed wires, water filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a  
240VAC load, etc. – or an internal problem with the inverter).  In  
a nutshell – the inverter is "seeing" its own AC output at its AC  
input – so it connects and then tries to charge from itself – which  
causes the AC output voltage to decrease – and then it drops the AC  
source for another 20 seconds – over and over…


When the generator was connected to the inverter – was the varying  
AC input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE's  
display?   The voltage display on the MATE will vary until the  
inverter has actually connected to the generator since the inverter  
is not locked onto the frequency of the generator.  The fluctuation  
of the AC voltage on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency  
of the generator is way off from the 60hz nominal.  Check the  
voltage and the frequency at the inverter's AC input terminals with  
a good quality true-RMS meter with the generator running but not  
connected.


e a situation where two (or more) things are going on  
simultaneously.  My approach would be to continue to isolate  
components and run several different tests on all components.


Good luck

Drake



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Kirpal Khalsa]

 more assistance
>
>
>  Christopher
>
>
>
>
> Christopher Freitas
> Director of Research and Development
> OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
> cfrei...@outbackpower.com
> Tel 360 435 6030
> Cell 360 202 4239
> 19009 62nd Ave NE
> Arlington WA 98223 USA
> www.outbackpower.com
>  --
>  *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Drake Chamberlin
> *Sent:* Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
>
>
> I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post of yours it appeared
> that the system ran more normally when *not* connected to the house loads,
> but still cycled.
>
> Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a huge load
> trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It may well be a situation
> where two (or more) things are going on simultaneously.  My approach would
> be to continue to isolate components and run several different tests on all
> components.
>
> Good luck
>
> Drake
>
>
> At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
>
> This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the
> "strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further input I
> would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long trip to remedy
> this and want to have as much ammunition as possible. Again, to restate the
> problem:
>
>
> an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote off-grid
> location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is fluctuating between 110
> & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't charge.
> Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is steady at 122v.
> When all household loads are turned off the input terminal voltage
> stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.
>
> Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the gen. is
> stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 years but under
> new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries have become totally
> discharged.
>
> I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can perform
> a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock inverter, Outback
> tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar problem?
>
>
> Mick,
>
> referring to
>
>
> there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have accidentally
> been set for auto, is there?
>
> His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the household
> loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered was that the voltage
> was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually switched the generator
> to full speed and then checked the voltage again, that is where I found the
> rapid fluctuations occurring at the inverter.
>
> Ron
>
> On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:
>
>
>
> Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch incorrectly
> and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and
> everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."
>
> Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands (going
> as
> far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental
> short
> circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a
> circuit
> breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer
> experienced...possibly
> due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.
>
> I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated to
> your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg, borrow,
> or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda
> 3800.
> That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the
> generator.
>
> Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit
> normal
> looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which
> render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.
>
> Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
> accidentally been set for auto, is there?
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
>
>  Hi Mick & Jay,
> I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output and got
> steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and tested the gen. output
> from a different outlet and got steady voltage, both around 122v. So

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[jay peltz]

HI Christopher,

I don't know if this is similar.

I have a stacked 3648 unit, running in parallel at 120v.  Being fed  
from a 240v generator with a X-240 as stepdown.  Generator is a Onan  
8.5kw.  ( don't ask why its a long story)


Unit did work OK for about 2 yrs.

When you start the generator, the inverter will connect, AC voltage  
will rise until the inverter kicks out the generator and the cycle  
repeats.


Now here is where it gets weird, if you turn on a few lights ( could  
be incandescent or CFL's) and I mean like 150 watts worth, and then  
turn on the generator it will work OK.  Won't have the AC spike. But a  
small motor spike, such as a Rotozip etc will kick out the generator,  
and then it starts again.


Turning down the AC input AAC rating doesn't help, unless you turn it  
down a lot.

The generator has a new board and was tested out as OK.

If you run the house directly from the generator no problems. You can  
run large loads no problem.

If you run the house directly from the inverter all is good.

Only issue is with genny/inv interface.

Of course its a 2.5 hr drive each way.

Do you think this is a related problem?

thanks,

jay

peltz power
On Dec 29, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Christopher Freitas wrote:


Ron –

Tech support is open today and should be able to help you  
troubleshoot this in a step-by-step process that will discover the  
root problem.


I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have the  
following questions and comments:


When you tested just the inverter without the generator running –  
you stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds –  
did you also notice that the yellow “AC INPUT” light would blink and  
then turn solid momentarily?  This usually indicates that there is a  
cross connection of the inverter’s AC output with the AC input  
wiring – which can be caused by many different problems (nicked or  
chewed wires, water filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a  
240VAC load, etc. – or an internal problem with the inverter).  In a  
nutshell – the inverter is “seeing” its own AC output at its AC  
input – so it connects and then tries to charge from itself – which  
causes the AC output voltage to decrease – and then it drops the AC  
source for another 20 seconds – over and over…


When the generator was connected to the inverter – was the varying  
AC input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE’s  
display?   The voltage display on the MATE will vary until the  
inverter has actually connected to the generator since the inverter  
is not locked onto the frequency of the generator.  The fluctuation  
of the AC voltage on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency of  
the generator is way off from the 60hz nominal.  Check the voltage  
and the frequency at the inverter’s AC input terminals with a good  
quality true-RMS meter with the generator running but not connected.


Is this a 120/240VAC “split phase” generator operating with only one  
inverter on it?  It is possible that an internal connection in the  
generators windings has fried due to overloading one output leg of  
the generator – its similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage  
is OK until current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try  
putting the inverter on the other leg to see if you see the same  
issue.


I agree with the multiple problem theory that was suggested – it  
sounds like the generator is having a problem maintaining good  
voltage (or more likely a high enough frequency probably) and then  
there is some type of voltage feedback occurring when the generator  
is not connected.   Be sure to check the frequency of the generator  
when seeing issues like this – its often the problem.


Let us know if you need more assistance

Christopher


Christopher Freitas
Director of Research and Development
OutBack Power Systems, Inc.
cfrei...@outbackpower.com
Tel 360 435 6030
Cell 360 202 4239
19009 62nd Ave NE
Arlington WA 98223 USA
www.outbackpower.com
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin

Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post of yours it  
appeared that the system ran more normally when not connected to the  
house loads, but still cycled.


Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a  
huge load trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It may well  
be a situation where two (or more) things are going on  
simultaneously.  My approach would be to continue to isolate  
components and run several different tests on all components.


Good luck

Drake


At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:

This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the  
"strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further  
in

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Christopher Freitas]

Ron - 

 

Tech support is open today and should be able to help you troubleshoot
this in a step-by-step process that will discover the root problem.  

 

I am a bit confused by the descriptions of the events and have the
following questions and comments:  

 

When you tested just the inverter without the generator running - you
stated that there was a noticeable flicker every 20 seconds - did you
also notice that the yellow "AC INPUT" light would blink and then turn
solid momentarily?  This usually indicates that there is a cross
connection of the inverter's AC output with the AC input wiring - which
can be caused by many different problems (nicked or chewed wires, water
filled junction box or conduits, miswiring of a 240VAC load, etc. - or
an internal problem with the inverter).  In a nutshell - the inverter is
"seeing" its own AC output at its AC input - so it connects and then
tries to charge from itself - which causes the AC output voltage to
decrease - and then it drops the AC source for another 20 seconds - over
and over... 

 

When the generator was connected to the inverter - was the varying AC
input voltage viewed on a digital test meter or on the MATE's display?
The voltage display on the MATE will vary until the inverter has
actually connected to the generator since the inverter is not locked
onto the frequency of the generator.  The fluctuation of the AC voltage
on the MATE is more pronounced if the frequency of the generator is way
off from the 60hz nominal.  Check the voltage and the frequency at the
inverter's AC input terminals with a good quality true-RMS meter with
the generator running but not connected.  

 

Is this a 120/240VAC "split phase" generator operating with only one
inverter on it?  It is possible that an internal connection in the
generators windings has fried due to overloading one output leg of the
generator - its similar to a bad solder joint where the voltage is OK
until current is pulled and then it opens up.  You might try putting the
inverter on the other leg to see if you see the same issue. 

 

I agree with the multiple problem theory that was suggested - it sounds
like the generator is having a problem maintaining good voltage (or more
likely a high enough frequency probably) and then there is some type of
voltage feedback occurring when the generator is not connected.   Be
sure to check the frequency of the generator when seeing issues like
this - its often the problem.  

 

Let us know if you need more assistance 

 

Christopher

 

 

Christopher Freitas

Director of Research and Development 

OutBack Power Systems, Inc.

cfrei...@outbackpower.com <mailto:cfrei...@outbackpower.com> 

Tel 360 435 6030

Cell 360 202 4239

19009 62nd Ave NE 

Arlington WA 98223 USA

www.outbackpower.com <http://www.outbackpower.com/> 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Chamberlin
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 6:39 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

 

I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post of yours it
appeared that the system ran more normally when not connected to the
house loads, but still cycled. 

Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a huge
load trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It may well be a
situation where two (or more) things are going on simultaneously.  My
approach would be to continue to isolate components and run several
different tests on all components.  

Good luck 

Drake 


At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:



This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the
"strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further input I
would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long trip to
remedy this and want to have as much ammunition as possible. Again, to
restate the problem:




an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote off-grid
location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is fluctuating between
110 & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't
charge. Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is
steady at 122v.  When all household loads are turned off the input
terminal voltage stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.

Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the gen. is
stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 years but
under new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries have become
totally discharged.

I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can
perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock
inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar
problem? 



Mick,

referring to




there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Drake Chamberlin]

I would also look at the loads.  From an earlier post of yours it 
appeared that the system ran more normally when not connected to the 
house loads, but still cycled.


Could something on the load side be shorting, or could there be a 
huge load trying to kick on that doesn't really start?  It may well 
be a situation where two (or more) things are going on 
simultaneously.  My approach would be to continue to isolate 
components and run several different tests on all components.


Good luck

Drake


At 08:51 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote:
This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the 
"strings of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further 
input I would very much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long 
trip to remedy this and want to have as much ammunition as possible. 
Again, to restate the problem:


an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote 
off-grid location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is 
fluctuating between 110 & 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not 
connect so batteries can't charge. Output voltage measured at the 
inverter output terminals is steady at 122v.  When all household 
loads are turned off the input terminal voltage stabilizes but AC 
In still does not connect.


Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the 
gen. is stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 
years but under new ownership has been badly monitored and 
batteries have become totally discharged.


I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can 
perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock 
inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar problem?



Mick,

referring to

there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have 
accidentally been set for auto, is there?


His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the 
household loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered 
was that the voltage was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I 
manually switched the generator to full speed and then checked the 
voltage again, that is where I found the rapid fluctuations 
occurring at the inverter.


Ron

On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:



Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch incorrectly
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."

Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands (going as
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental short
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a circuit
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer experienced...possibly
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.

I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated to
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg, borrow,
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda 3800.
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on 
the generator.


Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit normal
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which
render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.

Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
accidentally been set for auto, is there?

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
Voice: 970-731-4675



Hi Mick & Jay,
I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output 
and got steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and 
tested the gen. output from a different outlet and got steady 
voltage, both around 122v. So I've ruled out the generator. It was 
my first suspicion.


I have also noticed that when the household loads are off the 
inverter output appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except about 
every 20 seconds inverter audibly, the voltage drops from around 
120 to 110 then resumes - as if the input was momentarily dropped.


Darryl,
I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to around 5 aac 
but it didn't seem to make a difference. The owner told me, as an 
afterthought that someone had wired a switch incorrectly and when 
he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and 
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board. I 
know there is an ac control board in there ... could this be it?


BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.


Ron


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List-Archive: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Tump]

I would first isolate your system. turn off all loads on the inverter, &
REPOLE. check the AC input AT the inverter, checking ALL AC input
connections, pull on the wires , make sure they are tight. Ck the AC voltage
at the generator then at the inverter. 
 
Is it possible to run a separate wire from the gen to the inverter? sometime
the conduit fills w/ water or  mice have chewed wires ect, Ck the temp
sensor & remove it during testing.
 
With the E panel their is an outlet plug in your heat gun , loading the
generator, still have fluctuating voltages?If the batteries are low I would,
while watching the AC input voltage & Hzs, lower the charge rate to the
batteries & watch these readings. Stabilize at a lower current?
Do you have a small portable gen that you can being? try that. 
All else fails you have brought the other inverter w/ you I sometimes find
it less time consuming to swap inverters to check, then boards. 
I have replaced quite a few boards & yes there have been times that the AC
board was faulty & the generator never connected. 
OB is quite good sending boards I would REPLACE ALL if they will send them
to you, AC, DC, & Control, If it is remote & you don't want to go back &
forth wait until you get the boards.
As posted below, you have looked at most of these things I have suggested
but the inverters,usually can w/stand a quick short,shutting the inverter
down. 

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of R Young
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 8:51 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling


This thread seems to have died ... somehow it got mixed in with the "strings
of different orientation" thread. If anyone has further input I would very
much appreciate it as I have to schedule a long trip to remedy this and want
to have as much ammunition as possible. Again, to restate the problem:


an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on an E-panel in a remote off-grid
location. Voltage at the inverter input terminals is fluctuating between 110
& 140+ volts continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't charge.
Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is steady at 122v.
When all household loads are turned off the input terminal voltage
stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.

Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the gen. is
stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2 years but under
new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries have become totally
discharged.

I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can perform
a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock inverter, Outback
tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar problem? 



Mick,

referring to


there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have accidentally
been set for auto, is there?



His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the household
loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered was that the voltage
was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually switched the generator
to full speed and then checked the voltage again, that is where I found the
rapid fluctuations occurring at the inverter.

Ron

On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:



Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch incorrectly
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."

Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands (going
as
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental short
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a
circuit
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer experienced...possibly
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.

I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated to
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg, borrow,
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda
3800.
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the
generator.

Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit
normal
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which
render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.

Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
accidentally been set for auto, is there?

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
Voice: 970-731-4675


Hi Mick & Jay,
I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output and got
steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and tested the gen. output
from a different outlet and got steady voltage, both around 122v. So I've
ruled out the generator. It was my first suspicion.

I have also noticed that when the househ

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[R Young]

Mick,

referring to
there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have  
accidentally been set for auto, is there?


His generator was actually running in idle mode, operating the  
household loads when I got there and the first thing I discovered was  
that the voltage was ~90 volts coming in to the inverter. I manually  
switched the generator to full speed and then checked the voltage  
again, that is where I found the rapid fluctuations occurring at the  
inverter.


Ron

On 27-Dec-08, at 1:23 PM, mick abraham wrote:

Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch  
incorrectly
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired  
it and

everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."

Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands  
(going as
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an  
accidental short
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than  
a circuit
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer  
experienced...possibly
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to  
ground.


I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely  
unrelated to
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg,  
borrow,
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the  
Honda 3800.
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on  
the generator.


Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will  
exhibit normal
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes  
which

render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.

Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may  
have

accidentally been set for auto, is there?

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
Voice: 970-731-4675

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[mick abraham]

Ron wrote: "The owner told me...that someone had wired a switch incorrectly
and when he turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board."

Mick replies: I've seen several times with Outback and other brands (going as
far back as the Trace SW) where the inverter responds to an accidental short
circuit in the household wiring by shutting itself off quicker than a circuit
breaker can open. I'll bet that is what your customer experienced...possibly
due to a nicked hot wire in that new switch box shorting out to ground.

I suspect that (part of your customer's report) is completely unrelated to
your present problem scenario. If it was my headache I would beg, borrow,
or...rent a second generator to insert temporarily instead of the Honda 3800.
That's the most conclusive way to determine fault or no-fault on the generator.

Sometimes a genset will operate non-inverter loads OK and will exhibit normal
looking voltage etc. but there still could be transients or spikes which
render this input AC power unacceptable to the inverter/charger.

Thinking...there's not an auto-idle switch on that genset which may have
accidentally been set for auto, is there?

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com
Voice: 970-731-4675

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[R Young]

Hi Mick & Jay,
I disconnected the gen. line to the inverter and tested the output  
and got steady voltage. I then re-connected the inverter and tested  
the gen. output from a different outlet and got steady voltage, both  
around 122v. So I've ruled out the generator. It was my first suspicion.


I have also noticed that when the household loads are off the  
inverter output appears stable, doesn't fluctuate except about every  
20 seconds inverter audibly, the voltage drops from around 120 to 110  
then resumes - as if the input was momentarily dropped.


Darryl,
I did play with the AC charge current lowering it to around 5 aac but  
it didn't seem to make a difference. The owner told me, as an  
afterthought that someone had wired a switch incorrectly and when he  
turned it on the system "shut down". He then re-wired it and  
everything appeared ok but I'm wondering if this fried a board. I  
know there is an ac control board in there ... could this be it?


BTW, it's a very small generator, Honda 3800.

Ron

It sounds like the AC charge current is set to high, with the  
batteries being low the inverter charge rate is overloading the gen  
set. The gen set voltage drops and the inverter releases the genny  
and the voltage returns, the inverter reloads the genny and the  
cycle repeats.  If this worked before the gen set need attension,  
if not (changes to settings having occured or batteries just to  
low) reduce the AC charge current.

Daryl



On 27-Dec-08, at 8:58 AM, jay peltz wrote:


Hi Ron,

Almost for sure its the genny.  What type and when was it last  
serviced and how many hours does it have?


if the voltage is going all over the place really quickly then its  
not connecting to the inverter at all.


So here is a test that might help.  Turn on a resistive load such  
as a floor heater ( size depends on the generator) to lock in the  
voltage.  At this point if the voltage is constant, then the  
inverter might connect.


If this works, then the problem is most likely the genny, which  
case its needs some work.


jay

peltz power





On Dec 26, 2008, at 8:43 PM, R Young wrote:

I'm having a problem with an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on  
an E-panel in a remote off-grid location. Voltage at the inverter  
input terminals is fluctuating between 110 & 140+ volts  
continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't charge.  
Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is steady  
at 122v.  When all household loads are turned off the input  
terminal voltage stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.


Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the  
gen. is stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2  
years but under new ownership has been badly monitored and  
batteries have become totally discharged.


I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I  
can perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in- 
stock inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a  
similar problem?


Ron Young

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[jay peltz]

Hi Ron,

Almost for sure its the genny.  What type and when was it last  
serviced and how many hours does it have?


if the voltage is going all over the place really quickly then its not  
connecting to the inverter at all.


So here is a test that might help.  Turn on a resistive load such as a  
floor heater ( size depends on the generator) to lock in the voltage.   
At this point if the voltage is constant, then the inverter might  
connect.


If this works, then the problem is most likely the genny, which case  
its needs some work.


jay

peltz power





On Dec 26, 2008, at 8:43 PM, R Young wrote:

I'm having a problem with an Outback VFX3524 inverter installed on  
an E-panel in a remote off-grid location. Voltage at the inverter  
input terminals is fluctuating between 110 & 140+ volts  
continuously. AC in will not connect so batteries can't charge.  
Output voltage measured at the inverter output terminals is steady  
at 122v.  When all household loads are turned off the input terminal  
voltage stabilizes but AC In still does not connect.


Generator does not seem to be at fault as output measured at the  
gen. is stable even under load. System was working for about 1 1/2  
years but under new ownership has been badly monitored and batteries  
have become totally discharged.


I'm trying to determine if this is a circuit board problem so I can  
perform a rescue mission by pulling some boards from an in-stock  
inverter, Outback tech support are on holidays. Anyone had a similar  
problem?


Ron Young

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Darryl Thayer]

It sounds like the AC charge current is set to high, with the batteries being 
low the inverter charge rate is overloading the gen set. The gen set voltage 
drops and the inverter releases the genny and the voltage returns, the inverter 
reloads the genny and the cycle repeats.  If this worked before the gen set 
need attension, if not (changes to settings having occured or batteries just to 
low) reduce the AC charge current.  
Daryl


--- On Sat, 12/27/08, cvsol...@aol.com  wrote:

> From: cvsol...@aol.com 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Date: Saturday, December 27, 2008, 8:45 AM
> Sounds like a generator issue. Maybe a connection. maybe a
> generator control 
> board.  The generator out voltage test, are you sure
> you're seeing the true 
> generator out? Or are you seeing the inverter (i.e., a Gen.
> Service Receptacle). 
> Maybe a gen set tune up? Sounds like the inverter is fine.
> my 2 cents. db
> 
> Dan Brown
> President
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems 
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> NABCEP #092907-44
> 
> 
> **
> One site keeps you connected to all your 
> email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
> (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom0025)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX input voltage cycling

[Cvsolar2]

Sounds like a generator issue. Maybe a connection. maybe a generator control 
board.  The generator out voltage test, are you sure you're seeing the true 
generator out? Or are you seeing the inverter (i.e., a Gen. Service 
Receptacle). 
Maybe a gen set tune up? Sounds like the inverter is fine. my 2 cents. db

Dan Brown
President
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems 
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com
NABCEP #092907-44


**
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email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Yahoo Mail. Try it now. 
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