Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products

[William Miller]

Windy:

We have used a quad (four wheeled off-road utility vehicle) to pull pumps. We 
set up an empty wire spool as a roller right above the well head and attach the 
pull rope to the quad. Extra hands manage the poly pipe. Less muscle strain 
this way. 

William Miller

> On Dec 15, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Windy Dankoff  wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> 
> Something else I want to add - since your customer has difficult access for a 
> service truck, consider if it’s feasible to pull and replace the pump by 
> hand. I had a 1/2 HP AC pump on almost 200 feet of 1” PVC drop pipe. It took 
> all strong hands on deck (two decks, if you count down in the pit and above, 
> ground level). With 4 people, we pulled it by hand, grunting for sure. PVC 
> schedule 80 can be flexed enough to pull it as one long tube.
> 
> Putting new pump in is much easier - air in pipe is lighter than water.
> 
> I don’ know how deep yours is set, but if it’s a 2-wire, it can’t be much 
> deeper than that.
> 
> Windy
> 
>> I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 
>> 2W model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. 
>> 
>> http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf
>> 
>> Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to 
>> retrofit an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS 
>> what you are asking for, the alternative to replacing the pump! It’s up to 
>> you to determine if it’s the BEST option in the short and long run.
>> 
>> I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your 
>> local driller.
>> 
>> Keep Shining // Windy
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products

[Windy Dankoff]

Dan,

Something else I want to add - since your customer has difficult access for a 
service truck, consider if it’s feasible to pull and replace the pump by hand. 
I had a 1/2 HP AC pump on almost 200 feet of 1” PVC drop pipe. It took all 
strong hands on deck (two decks, if you count down in the pit and above, ground 
level). With 4 people, we pulled it by hand, grunting for sure. PVC schedule 80 
can be flexed enough to pull it as one long tube.

Putting new pump in is much easier - air in pipe is lighter than water.

I don’ know how deep yours is set, but if it’s a 2-wire, it can’t be much 
deeper than that.

Windy

> I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 
> 2W model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. 
> 
> http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf
> 
> Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to 
> retrofit an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS 
> what you are asking for, the alternative to replacing the pump! It’s up to 
> you to determine if it’s the BEST option in the short and long run.
> 
> I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your 
> local driller.
> 
> Keep Shining // Windy
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump? // Franklin products

[Windy Dankoff]

Dan,

I stand corrected on my advice. This Franklin document describes a MonoDrive 2W 
model. 2W stands for 2-wire pump! I didn’t know it existed. 

http://franklinwater.com/media/116400/225417101_m1560_sd_manual_05-13_web.pdf

Nevertheless, I would expect inferior results and would not use it to retrofit 
an old 2-wire pump if it may be on its last legs. However, it IS what you are 
asking for, to replacing the pump! It’s up to you to determine if it’s the BEST 
option in the short and long run.

I would run this by a very knowlegable Franklin distributor, as well as your 
local driller.

Keep Shining // Windy



> On Dec 13, 2016, at 1:39 PM, Windy Dankoff  wrote:
> 
> Hey Dan!
> 
> A 2-wire pump does not have a built-in capacitor. It has NO capacitor. 
> Starting any single-phase induction motor is like a one legged bicyclist. 
> Without a start winding and capacitor (and a device to switch it out), it’s a 
> LAME one-legged bicyclist. Only marketed for those who must have the cheapest 
> option (on grid power).
> 
> Now, you CAN use Franklin MonoDrive with a 3-wire single-phase pump, but that 
> is (in my understanding) far inferior to a true variable-speed drive combined 
> with a 3-phase pump. I imagine the only reason they make a single-phase 
> version is to retrofit existing 1-ph 3-wire pumps, and that’s fine … BUT if 
> replacing the WHOLE pump, why not do it right and go 3-phase. A 3-ph motor 
> requires no special starting circuit, so it’s much simpler and in general, 
> it’s cheaper than a 1-ph cap-start motor! Also, I expect the electronics for 
> V speed would be cheaper. So ...
> 
> I strongly suggest you get a quote on the Franklin 3-ph SubDrive system. It 
> will draw a gentle starting rise of maybe 2X … not really a surge at all. It 
> can work in either soft-start full-speed mode, to work like any conventional 
> pressure pump, or as a “constant pressure” pump. The latter will rack up many 
> hours running at reduced speed which is also reduced pumping efficiency. It’s 
> intended for using with tiny pressure tanks, but not so energy-efficient. I’d 
> recommend keeping the full-size normal p tank, and using full-speed mode.
> 
> Incidentally, 3-ph variable speed drive is at the heart of  solar pump 
> controllers made for conventional pumps. And those items are for non-battery 
> systems! They are only made for 3-ph motors. Nobody makes one for 1-ph. even 
> though there would be high demand. Above 2HP, all AC subs are 3ph. Solar 
> controllers are handling them PV-direct approaching 100 kW now!
> 
> I’ve been researching this whole topic for my book (Solar Water Pumping, 
> Taylor & Francis for 2017) and I think it’s the best advice for your 
> customer. Any of you other guys have experience with VS 3-ph and constant 
> pressure pumps?
> 
> Please tell me what you end up recommending, and how it works out!
> 
> RE John B’s previous comment:  "All the things us solar guys get involved 
> with ...” All I can say is:
> 
> Somebody’s got to do it.
> 
> Windy
> 
> or in my case:   Somebody’s got to write about it! 
> http://www.windydankoff.com
> 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Windy Dankoff]

Hey Dan!

A 2-wire pump does not have a built-in capacitor. It has NO capacitor. Starting 
any single-phase induction motor is like a one legged bicyclist. Without a 
start winding and capacitor (and a device to switch it out), it’s a LAME 
one-legged bicyclist. Only marketed for those who must have the cheapest option 
(on grid power).

Now, you CAN use Franklin MonoDrive with a 3-wire single-phase pump, but that 
is (in my understanding) far inferior to a true variable-speed drive combined 
with a 3-phase pump. I imagine the only reason they make a single-phase version 
is to retrofit existing 1-ph 3-wire pumps, and that’s fine … BUT if replacing 
the WHOLE pump, why not do it right and go 3-phase. A 3-ph motor requires no 
special starting circuit, so it’s much simpler and in general, it’s cheaper 
than a 1-ph cap-start motor! Also, I expect the electronics for V speed would 
be cheaper. So ...

I strongly suggest you get a quote on the Franklin 3-ph SubDrive system. It 
will draw a gentle starting rise of maybe 2X … not really a surge at all. It 
can work in either soft-start full-speed mode, to work like any conventional 
pressure pump, or as a “constant pressure” pump. The latter will rack up many 
hours running at reduced speed which is also reduced pumping efficiency. It’s 
intended for using with tiny pressure tanks, but not so energy-efficient. I’d 
recommend keeping the full-size normal p tank, and using full-speed mode.

Incidentally, 3-ph variable speed drive is at the heart of  solar pump 
controllers made for conventional pumps. And those items are for non-battery 
systems! They are only made for 3-ph motors. Nobody makes one for 1-ph. even 
though there would be high demand. Above 2HP, all AC subs are 3ph. Solar 
controllers are handling them PV-direct approaching 100 kW now!

I’ve been researching this whole topic for my book (Solar Water Pumping, Taylor 
& Francis for 2017) and I think it’s the best advice for your customer. Any of 
you other guys have experience with VS 3-ph and constant pressure pumps?

Please tell me what you end up recommending, and how it works out!

RE John B’s previous comment:  "All the things us solar guys get involved with 
...” All I can say is:

 Somebody’s got to do it.

Windy

 or in my case:   Somebody’s got to write about it! 
http://www.windydankoff.com

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[John Blittersdorf]

hough.
>>> Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual
>>> battery voltages while the pump is running.
>>>
>>> R.Ray Walters
>>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760>
>>>
>>> On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>>>
>>> Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are
>>> Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From:
>>> "RE-wrenches" 
>>> 
>>>
>>> To:
>>> "RE-wrenches" 
>>> 
>>> Cc:
>>>
>>> Sent:
>>> Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the
>>> ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and
>>> not much abuse.
>>>
>>> Dan Fink
>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>>> 970.672.4342
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?
>>>>
>>>> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start”
>>>> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for
>>>> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just
>>>> electrical,  may may be resisting start up.
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size
>>>> looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet
>>>> and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might
>>>> be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD
>>>> might be a quick and dirty solution.
>>>>
>>>> Dan Fink
>>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be
>>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>>>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>>>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>>>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>>>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>>>> 970.672.4342
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump
>>>>> large enough for the distance?
>>>>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance /
>>>>> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a thought,
>>>>> Bob Ellison
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Esteemed Wrenches;
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having
>>>>> trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of
>>>>> charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It
>>>>> has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the
>>>>> situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start
>>>>> capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though
>>>>> I suppose it could be blown.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super
>>>>> expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a
>>>>> new, modern soft-start one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Dan Fink]

3-wire only for the Franklin MonoDrive. Darn! The Gould version works with
with 2-wire...but only at 240vac. Oh well, after my client chokes down the
well company bill next spring, I'll have a lovely, scenic 4WD trip up the
mountain, do 30 minutes worth of wiring, be the hero, and never have to
hassle with the problem again.
Thanks again, all.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 9:40 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

> Thanks for the advice, everyone! The problem has been ongoing since the
> system was first installed, it didn't just crop up. I have checked the
> battery bank (8x L-16) under load with a thermal imager and voltmeter and
> refractometer, no issues with cell voltage, SG or bad connections. I'll be
> looking into the Franklin Sub Drive and will report back as far as 2-wire.
>
> Everything here seems to me to be pointing towards an antiquated 2-wire
> well pump with the internal hard start cap possibly blown, or the rotor
> sticky with sediment. It'll be a hard sell to get a new well pump
> setbut when we started talking auto gen start for a boost, an old honda
> 6500kw (that runs the well pump fine) that doesn't have a remote start port
> for the Magnum AGS (Honda piggyback wiring harness nightmare I'd have to
> homebrew), I went into "won't touch that with a 10-foot pole" modeand
> the local Honda shop said I'd be nuts to attempt it.
>
> Thanks again, all -- I'll report back. The system is no longer accessible,
> this'll be a springtime project.
>
>
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:
>
>> Hey Dan;
>>
>> If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a
>> premature cell failure.  I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are
>> certainly problematic on inverters.  Many well service folks don't even
>> install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so your
>> customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway.
>> We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on
>> an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524.  Worked well, no call backs.
>> I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though.
>> Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual
>> battery voltages while the pump is running.
>>
>> R.Ray Walters
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760>
>>
>> On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>>
>> Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are
>> Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From:
>> "RE-wrenches" 
>> 
>>
>> To:
>> "RE-wrenches" 
>> 
>> Cc:
>>
>> Sent:
>> Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700
>> Subject:
>> Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?
>>
>>
>> Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the
>> ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and
>> not much abuse.
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?
>>>
>>> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start”
>>> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for
>>> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just
>>> electrical,  may may be resisting start up.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> On De

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Dan Fink]

Thanks for the advice, everyone! The problem has been ongoing since the
system was first installed, it didn't just crop up. I have checked the
battery bank (8x L-16) under load with a thermal imager and voltmeter and
refractometer, no issues with cell voltage, SG or bad connections. I'll be
looking into the Franklin Sub Drive and will report back as far as 2-wire.

Everything here seems to me to be pointing towards an antiquated 2-wire
well pump with the internal hard start cap possibly blown, or the rotor
sticky with sediment. It'll be a hard sell to get a new well pump
setbut when we started talking auto gen start for a boost, an old honda
6500kw (that runs the well pump fine) that doesn't have a remote start port
for the Magnum AGS (Honda piggyback wiring harness nightmare I'd have to
homebrew), I went into "won't touch that with a 10-foot pole" modeand
the local Honda shop said I'd be nuts to attempt it.

Thanks again, all -- I'll report back. The system is no longer accessible,
this'll be a springtime project.


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Sun, Dec 11, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> Hey Dan;
>
> If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a
> premature cell failure.  I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are
> certainly problematic on inverters.  Many well service folks don't even
> install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so your
> customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway.
> We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on
> an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524.  Worked well, no call backs.
> I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though.
> Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual battery
> voltages while the pump is running.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760 <(303)%20505-8760>
>
> On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are
> Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going bad.
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From:
> "RE-wrenches" 
> 
>
> To:
> "RE-wrenches" 
> 
> Cc:
>
> Sent:
> Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700
> Subject:
> Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?
>
>
> Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the
> ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and
> not much abuse.
>
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku 
> wrote:
>
>> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?
>>
>> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start”
>> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for
>> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just
>> electrical,  may may be resisting start up.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks
>> like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the
>> usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an
>> option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might
>> be a quick and dirty solution.
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:
>>
>>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump
>>> large enough for the distance?
>>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance /
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Ray Walters]

Hey Dan;

If this just problem just started, I'm with Drake, you could have a 
premature cell failure.  I also agree with Allan, 2 wire pumps are 
certainly problematic on inverters.  Many well service folks don't even 
install them because they don't last near as long as 3 wire pumps, so 
your customer may end up needing to replace the pump soon anyway.
We've used the Franklin Sub Drive with a 1.5 Hp Pump that would start on 
an SW 4024, but not on an Outback VFX3524.  Worked well, no call backs.  
I'm not sure if they will work with a 2 wire pump though.
Before you take that long trip, have the customer check individual 
battery voltages while the pump is running.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 12/10/2016 3:43 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are 
Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be going 
bad.




- Original Message -
From:
"RE-wrenches" 

To:
"RE-wrenches" 
Cc:

Sent:
Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700
Subject:
    Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?


Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's
in the ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it
(8 x L-16) and not much abuse.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342


On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku
mailto:mjmornings...@gmail.com>> wrote:

What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?

VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft
start” controllers for pumps and motors designed for that
application, but not for a two wire fed submersible pump. The
pump, for mechanical reasons, not just electrical,  may may be
resisting start up.

Michael

On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the
wire size looks like "the usual" for up here in this area,
it's only about 100 feet and the usual well depth around
here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to
consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping
VSD might be a quick and dirty solution.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch
Institute be
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342


On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison
mailto:reelli...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires
feeding the pump large enough for the distance?
Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a
high resistance / bad connection or a long wire run
and the need for a larger wire ?

Just a thought,
Bob Ellison

On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink
mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Esteemed Wrenches;

I have a client in a very remote mountain location
who is having trouble with his inverter starting
his well pump when battery state of charge is
below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.

It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model,
horsepower, or well depth. It has always given him
trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the
situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't
think adding a hard start capacitor would help as
there should be one inside the pump itself, though
I suppose it could be blown.

Because of the distance and the rough road, it
would be super expensive for a well company to
come up there, pull the old pump and set a new,
modern soft-start one.

Has anyone here had any experience with
retrofitting variable speed drive units to an
unknown pump? If so, what model

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Shasta Daiku]

Some two-wire pumps have integral start capacitors and others, Franklin and 
Gould comes to mind, do not. I’d be looking at start up current duration. If by 
chance the pump motor is without a capacitor and the current remains high for 
more than a second or two, it’s most likely structural as Allan has suggested. 
Unfortunately this thing will probable need pulling.
Michael

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Allan - my understanding is that with a 2-wire pump, the start capacitor is 
> integrated into the pump housing, underwater. I've never dealt with a 2-wire 
> pump eithermy experience has been with start capacitors in 3-wire pumps 
> being located conveniently above ground in the pump control enclosure.
> 
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342 
>  
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar  > wrote:
> Dan,
> I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground here, 
> but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third wire in a 
> three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. A two-wire 
> pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load from the AC 
> source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an inverter, as compared to 
> grid. So Shasta's surge question below is relevant. I'd determine both 
> instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it may be that the combination - of 
> battery voltage leading to reduced AC from the Magnum, voltage drop on the 
> wires, and simply using the Magnum - will keep it always problematic. 
> 
> Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a distributor, 
> Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the time, including 
> the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge capacity, but did this by 
> allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to around 80 VAC, if I recall, on 
> a 120 VAC inverter. 
> 
> You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump may 
> be the best solution. 
> Allan
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738  cell
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Dan Fink]

Allan - my understanding is that with a 2-wire pump, the start capacitor is
integrated into the pump housing, underwater. I've never dealt with a
2-wire pump eithermy experience has been with start capacitors in
3-wire pumps being located conveniently above ground in the pump control
enclosure.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Allan Sindelar 
wrote:

> Dan,
> I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground
> here, but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third
> wire in a three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. A
> two-wire pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load from
> the AC source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an inverter, as
> compared to grid. So Shasta's surge question below is relevant. I'd
> determine both instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it may be that the
> combination - of battery voltage leading to reduced AC from the Magnum,
> voltage drop on the wires, and simply using the Magnum - will keep it
> always problematic.
>
> Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a distributor,
> Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the time, including
> the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge capacity, but did this by
> allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to around 80 VAC, if I recall,
> on a 120 VAC inverter.
>
> You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump
> may be the best solution.
> Allan
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <(505)%20780-2738> cell*
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[drake . chamberlin]

Have you checked the condition of the batteries. Unless the L-16s are
Rolls or  East Penn, it might be about time for some cells to be
going bad. 

- Original Message -
From:
 "RE-wrenches" 

To:
"RE-wrenches" 
Cc:

Sent:
Sat, 10 Dec 2016 10:39:30 -0700
Subject:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in
the ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x
L-16) and not much abuse.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342

 

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku

 wrote:
What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?

VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft
start” controllers for pumps and motors designed for that
application, but not for a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump,
for mechanical reasons, not just electrical,  may may be resisting
start up. 

Michael

On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size
looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100
feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter
wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm
just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342

 

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison 
 wrote:

Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump
large enough for the distance?
Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance /
bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?

Just a thought,
Bob Ellison

On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:

Esteemed Wrenches;
I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having
trouble with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of
charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. 

It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It
has always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the
situation is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard
start capacitor would help as there should be one inside the pump
itself, though I suppose it could be blown.

Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super
expensive for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and
set a new, modern soft-start one.

Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed
drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and
what do you prefer?

Thanks; 

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342

 

___

List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [5]

Change listserver email address & settings:

http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[6]

List-Archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
[7]

List rules & etiquette:

www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [8]

Check out or update participant bios:

www.members.re-wrenches.org [9]

___
 List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [10]

 Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[11]

 List-Archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
[12]

 List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [13]

 Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org [14]

 ___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org [15]

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
[16]

List-Archive:
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
[17]

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm [18]

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org [19]

___
 List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

 List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.r

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Allan Sindelar]

Dan,
I have never had to work with a two-wire pump, so I'm on shaky ground 
here, but I refer back to what I learned years ago from Windy. The third 
wire in a three-wire pump carries the starting surge from the capacitor. 
A two-wire pump lacks this, and thus gets its entire surge-under-load 
from the AC source. This will be intrinsically difficult for an 
inverter, as compared to grid. So Shasta's surge question below is 
relevant. I'd determine both instantaneous surge and voltage drop; it 
may be that the combination - of battery voltage leading to reduced AC 
from the Magnum, voltage drop on the wires, and simply using the Magnum 
- will keep it always problematic.


Years ago, when Dankoff Solar Products was in its prime as a 
distributor, Phil U did a load capacity test on various inverters of the 
time, including the Magnum MS4024. It had remarkably strong surge 
capacity, but did this by allowing a much greater voltage drop - down to 
around 80 VAC, if I recall, on a 120 VAC inverter.


You may be dealing with a structural issue, for which upgrading the pump 
may be the best solution.

Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**

On 12/10/2016 11:06 AM, Shasta Daiku wrote:

Dan,
Have you measured start up current?

On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Drake 
> wrote:


The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10 UF cable. A 450 
foot run might create too much voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost 
transformer would help.


Drake

At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote:
Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size 
looks like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 
feet and the usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter 
wire might be an option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. 
I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution.


Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructorâ„¢ for:Â
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 

Â

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison > wrote:


Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding
the pump large enough for the distance?
Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high
resistance / bad connection or a long wire run and the need for
a larger wire ?

Just a thought,
Bob Ellison

On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Esteemed Wrenches;

I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is
having trouble with his inverter starting his well pump
when battery state of charge is below 75%. 24v system,
Magnum inverter.Â

It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well
depth. It has always given him trouble, that's why he
upgraded to 24v, and the situation is better, but not ideal
yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would help
as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I
suppose it could be blown.

Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be
super expensive for a well company to come up there, pull
the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one.

Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting
variable speed drive units to an unknown pump? If so, what
models have you tried and what do you prefer?

Thanks;Â

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:Â






Avast logo 
 
	


This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com 
 




___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 



Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html


List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org





___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Shasta Daiku]

Dan,
Have you measured start up current?

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:39 AM, Drake  
> wrote:
> 
> The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10 UF cable. A 450 foot run 
> might create too much voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost transformer would 
> help. 
> 
> Drake 
> 
> At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote:
>> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks 
>> like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the 
>> usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an 
>> option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might 
>> be a quick and dirty solution.
>> 
>> Dan Fink
>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342 
>> 
>> Â 
>> 
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison > > wrote:
>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large 
>> enough for the distance?
>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad 
>> connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?
>> 
>> Just a thought,
>> Bob Ellison
>> 
>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Esteemed Wrenches;
>>> 
>>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble 
>>> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is 
>>> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. 
>>> 
>>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has 
>>> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation 
>>> is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor 
>>> would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose 
>>> it could be blown.
>>> 
>>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for 
>>> a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern 
>>> soft-start one.
>>> 
>>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive 
>>> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you 
>>> prefer?
>>> 
>>> Thanks;Â 
>>> 
>>> Dan Fink
>>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> 
> 
>   
> 
>
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
> www.avast.com 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Drake]

The usual wire I see running to most pumps is #10
UF cable. A 450 foot run might create too much
voltage drop. Maybe a buck boost transformer would help.

Drake

At 12:11 PM 12/10/2016, you wrote:

Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion,
and the wire size looks like "the usual" for up
here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and
the usual well depth around here is 350 ft.
Running stouter wire might be an option to
consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just
hoping VSD might be a quick and dirty solution.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:Â
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342

Â

On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison
<reelli...@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't know about the variable speed but are the
wires feeding the pump large enough for the distance?
Sounds like it might be voltage starved because
of a high resistance / bad connection or a long
wire run and the need for a larger wire ?

Just a thought,
Bob Ellison

On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink
<danbo...@gmail.com> wrote:


Esteemed Wrenches;

I have a client in a very remote mountain
location who is having trouble with his
inverter starting his well pump when battery
state of charge is below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.Â

It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model,
horsepower, or well depth. It has always given
him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and
the situation is better, but not ideal yet. I
don't think adding a hard start capacitor would
help as there should be one inside the pump
itself, though I suppose it could be blown.

Because of the distance and the rough road, it
would be super expensive for a well company to
come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern soft-start one.

Has anyone here had any experience with
retrofitting variable speed drive units to an
unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you prefer?

Thanks;Â

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:Â



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Dan Fink]

Michael; Battery bank voltage at 75% SOC is around 24.7v, so it's in the
ballpark and the battery bank has only about 3 years on it (8 x L-16) and
not much abuse.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:34 AM, Shasta Daiku 
wrote:

> What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?
>
> VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start”
> controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for
> a two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just
> electrical,  may may be resisting start up.
>
> Michael
>
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks
> like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the
> usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an
> option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might
> be a quick and dirty solution.
>
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:
>
>> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump
>> large enough for the distance?
>> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance /
>> bad connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?
>>
>> Just a thought,
>> Bob Ellison
>>
>> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>>
>> Esteemed Wrenches;
>>
>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble
>> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is
>> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.
>>
>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has
>> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation
>> is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor
>> would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose
>> it could be blown.
>>
>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive
>> for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new,
>> modern soft-start one.
>>
>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive
>> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you
>> prefer?
>>
>> Thanks;
>>
>> Dan Fink
>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re
>> -wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re
>> -wrenc...@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/mailli

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Shasta Daiku]

What is the battery voltage when the client says that SOC is %75?

VFD driven pumps are three phase. There are single phase “soft start” 
controllers for pumps and motors designed for that application, but not for a 
two wire fed submersible pump. The pump, for mechanical reasons, not just 
electrical,  may may be resisting start up. 

Michael

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks like 
> "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the usual 
> well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an option to 
> consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might be a quick 
> and dirty solution.
> 
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Scotch Institute be
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342 
>  
> 
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison  > wrote:
> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large 
> enough for the distance?
> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad 
> connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?
> 
> Just a thought,
> Bob Ellison
> 
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  > wrote:
> 
>> Esteemed Wrenches;
>> 
>> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble 
>> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is 
>> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. 
>> 
>> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has 
>> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation 
>> is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor 
>> would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose 
>> it could be blown.
>> 
>> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for 
>> a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern 
>> soft-start one.
>> 
>> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive 
>> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you 
>> prefer?
>> 
>> Thanks; 
>> 
>> Dan Fink
>> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
>> ~ PV Installation Professional
>> ~ Small Wind Installer
>> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
>> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
>> 970.672.4342 
>>  
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
>> 
>> 
>> List-Archive: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
>> 
>> 
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
>> 
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
>> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html 
> 
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenc

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[Dan Fink]

Hi Bob; I checked the connections for corrosion, and the wire size looks
like "the usual" for up here in this area, it's only about 100 feet and the
usual well depth around here is 350 ft. Running stouter wire might be an
option to consider...but that's a lot of digging. I'm just hoping VSD might
be a quick and dirty solution.

Dan Fink
Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342



On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 9:53 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:

> Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump
> large enough for the distance?
> Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad
> connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?
>
> Just a thought,
> Bob Ellison
>
> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> Esteemed Wrenches;
>
> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble
> with his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is
> below 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter.
>
> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has
> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation
> is better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor
> would help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose
> it could be blown.
>
> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive
> for a well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new,
> modern soft-start one.
>
> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive
> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you
> prefer?
>
> Thanks;
>
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.
> org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Retrofit variable speed drive to old well pump?

[RE Ellison]

Don't know about the variable speed but are the wires feeding the pump large 
enough for the distance?
Sounds like it might be voltage starved because of a high resistance / bad 
connection or a long wire run and the need for a larger wire ?

Just a thought,
Bob Ellison

> On Dec 10, 2016, at 11:39 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Esteemed Wrenches;
> 
> I have a client in a very remote mountain location who is having trouble with 
> his inverter starting his well pump when battery state of charge is below 
> 75%. 24v system, Magnum inverter. 
> 
> It's a 2-wire pump, unknown age, model, horsepower, or well depth. It has 
> always given him trouble, that's why he upgraded to 24v, and the situation is 
> better, but not ideal yet. I don't think adding a hard start capacitor would 
> help as there should be one inside the pump itself, though I suppose it could 
> be blown.
> 
> Because of the distance and the rough road, it would be super expensive for a 
> well company to come up there, pull the old pump and set a new, modern 
> soft-start one.
> 
> Has anyone here had any experience with retrofitting variable speed drive 
> units to an unknown pump? If so, what models have you tried and what do you 
> prefer?
> 
> Thanks; 
> 
> Dan Fink
> Adjunct Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org