Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[rb_n3dab]

My 2 cents worth. 

Many years ago I had a 200' run of LDF5-50 installed by a "professional" on a 
900'tower (rptr at 700' antenna at 900') about a week later we noticed that the 
 T&R performance dropped considerably.  Personal inspection revealed that water 
or condensate (about a teaspoon full) had drained down the cable insde the 
hollow center conductor and had seeped around the inside of the bottom 
connector.  The solution was to completely remove the connector and center pin, 
drain the cable and let it thoroughly dry then reinstall the connector.  I 
never had another problem with it after that.   I suggest you take a look at 
yours.   

Years later I ordered 2 runs of LDF4-50 w/ connectors installed from DB and 
after receiving them checked them for continuitybefore installation.  One cable 
showed a direct short between center conductor and ground.  I removed both 
connectors and found one connector had been improperly installed at DB.  
Apparently the portion that has the spring fingers on it had been allowed to 
turn in the tightening process and it had grabbed the copper shield, shredded 
it and bent it inward to where it made contact with the center conductor.  
Needless to say ,but I then removed all the other connectors to verify their 
condition and reinstalled all of them properly.  

A third case similar to the one above (shredded shield ) but no physical 
contact (no continuity) showed a 1:1 SWR on Xmit but caused the RF to desense 
the rcvr. to the point where the perfomance of the rptr. was drastically 
reduced from what it should have been.  Similar to what you are describing.

While you might not see a direct short or even an indication of high reflected 
power when you test the system, if you have any contamination, moisture, or 
metallic debris in side the connector it can cause you the grief you are 
describing.  

Hope this helps some.
--
Doug   
N3DAB/WPRX486/WPJL709

 Cort Buffington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

=
Don,

two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them  
where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer.

The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters...  
(I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a  
little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap  
comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various  
signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from  
Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a  
nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within  
a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter,  
agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty  
confident of it.

Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ 
connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from  
tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday  
morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and  
installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of  
testing. After significant rains, no change.

Thanks Don!
Cort

On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote:

> Cort,
>
> I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your  
> post.
>
> One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines
> which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire?  
> Only one
> feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One  
> hardline /
> antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave  
> ANT450F10)
> works bad?
>
> The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold  
> of a
> Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest  
> thing to
> do.
>
> If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the  
> Telewave
> system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out
> either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time.
> Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or
> duplexer termination.
>
> How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy  
> rain in
> the area that water could have been introduced into the connector /  
> hardline
> if they weren't properly water-proofed?
>
> Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing  
> that
> the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading  
> your post
> over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment  
> and then
> implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to  
> cause
> the hardline / antenna system to react that way.
>
> Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem.
>
> Don, KD9PT
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] U

[Repeater-Builder] Need Info on Wilson radio

[Glenn Little WB4UIV]

I just bought a Wilson WS201 Mobile transceiver in the hopes of using 
the receiver for a repeater receiver.
This is a crystal controlled radio. I cannot locate any information 
on this radio. The FCC ID even comes back as a no find. The FCC ID is 
ATE9PLWS201. ATE comes back as a Regency type acceptance number.

Does anyone have a manual or schematics for this radio?

Any help appreciated.

73
Glenn
WB4UIV

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Cort Buffington]

Eric! That's a really, really fantastic idea. That's TOP on the list.

On Oct 16, 2008, at 10:16 PM, Eric Lemmon wrote:


Cort,

One problem that I don't think has been mentioned, is the  
possibility that

the center conductor of the feedline to the top antenna has somehow
disconnected from the center pin at the top end. This doesn't happen  
very

often with foam dielectric Heliax, but it does happen often with air
dielectric feedline. When the sun beats on the black exterior of the
feedline, it expands longitudinally, but more on the outside than on  
the
inside. After many cycles, the center conductor pulls out of the  
back of
the center pin. On captive-pin Heliax connectors, it looks like the  
center
pin is fine when viewed from the top, but there may be no connection  
to the
cable's center conductor. One quick way to check this is to measure  
the DC
resistance between the center conductor and shield at the bottom end  
of the
feedline, where it connects to the duplexer. When a DC-grounded is  
properly
connected at the top, you should measure close to zero ohms plus the  
loop

resistance of the feedline.

Incidentally, this quick and simple measurement is a good one to  
make on any

new installation, right after it is certain that everything is working
properly. The measured resistance value should be posted somewhere  
in the

shack so that it can be verified from time to time, or when there is a
suspected problem with the antenna or feedline.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:38 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

Don,

two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them  
where

each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer.

The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type  
meters... (I've

needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less
forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a  
quick
check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my  
IFR
1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted  
the same
signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for  
years on
it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a  
perfect
method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format.  
I'm

probably pretty confident of it.

Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ 
connector is

damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the
ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning  
there was a
pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No  
rain at all
between erection and the first round of testing. After significant  
rains, no

change.

Thanks Don!
Cort

On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote:



Cort,

I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your
post.

One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two
feedlines
which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire?
Only one
feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One
hardline /
antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave
ANT450F10)
works bad?

The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold
of a
Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest
thing to
do.

If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the
Telewave
system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule
out
either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a
time.
Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base
or
duplexer termination.

How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy
rain in
the area that water could have been introduced into the connector /
hardline
if they weren't properly water-proofed?

Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing
that
the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading
your post
over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment
and then
implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to
cause
the hardline / antenna system to react that way.

Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem.

Don, KD9PT

- Original Message -
From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 >
To: mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

> Folks,
>
> My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440
machine. We
> have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10
to
> put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"
> heliax. We als

RE: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Eric Lemmon]

Cort,

One problem that I don't think has been mentioned, is the possibility that
the center conductor of the feedline to the top antenna has somehow
disconnected from the center pin at the top end.  This doesn't happen very
often with foam dielectric Heliax, but it does happen often with air
dielectric feedline.  When the sun beats on the black exterior of the
feedline, it expands longitudinally, but more on the outside than on the
inside.  After many cycles, the center conductor pulls out of the back of
the center pin.  On captive-pin Heliax connectors, it looks like the center
pin is fine when viewed from the top, but there may be no connection to the
cable's center conductor.  One quick way to check this is to measure the DC
resistance between the center conductor and shield at the bottom end of the
feedline, where it connects to the duplexer.  When a DC-grounded is properly
connected at the top, you should measure close to zero ohms plus the loop
resistance of the feedline.

Incidentally, this quick and simple measurement is a good one to make on any
new installation, right after it is certain that everything is working
properly.  The measured resistance value should be posted somewhere in the
shack so that it can be verified from time to time, or when there is a
suspected problem with the antenna or feedline.

73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY


-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 7:38 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

Don,

two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them where
each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer.

The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters... (I've
needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a little less
forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap comets. I did a quick
check of the telewave by transmitting various signal levels into my IFR
1200S (currently in calibration from Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same
signals into the telewave with a nice big DB load I've trusted for years on
it. The Telewave was within a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect
method, but new meter, agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm
probably pretty confident of it.

Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/connector is
damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from tower on the
ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday morning there was a
pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and installed. No rain at all
between erection and the first round of testing. After significant rains, no
change.

Thanks Don!
Cort

On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote:




Cort,

I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your
post.

One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two
feedlines 
which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire?
Only one 
feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One
hardline / 
antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave
ANT450F10) 
works bad?

The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold
of a 
Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest
thing to 
do.

If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the
Telewave 
system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule
out 
either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a
time. 
Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base
or 
duplexer termination.

How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy
rain in 
the area that water could have been introduced into the connector /
hardline 
if they weren't properly water-proofed?

Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing
that 
the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading
your post 
over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment
and then 
implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to
cause 
the hardline / antenna system to react that way.

Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem.

Don, KD9PT

- Original Message - 
From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 >
To: mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

> Folks,
>
> My repeater partner and I hav

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Chuck Kelsey]

Could be a "bad-out-of-the-box" antenna. I've heard of this happening with 
fiberglass antennas. It could be broken near the bottom and still show good 
VSWR but give you no gain.

Chuck
WB2EDV



- Original Message - 
From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:16 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion


> Folks,
>
> My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We
> have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to
> put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"
> heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down
> from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.
> So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420
> is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90
> degrees rotated.
>
> The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)
> with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but
> on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns
> approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to
> town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a
> straight shot connecting them.
>
> The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is
> working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in
> full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit
> differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the
> Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all
> directions.
>
> Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things
> look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is
> 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make
> sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that
> has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who
> advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is
> critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down-
> tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not
> real appreciable difference.
>
> For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the
> feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave
> also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this
> installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and
> recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because
> of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and
> the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW
> vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought
> that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all)
> wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away.
>
> In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to
> check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to
> take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance
> rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if
> necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has
> appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than
> the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter
> intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the
> horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience
> and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list,
> which has saved me many times.
>
> Your thoughts gentlemen?
>
> --
> Cort Buffington
> H: +1-785-838-3034
> M: +1-785-865-7206
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Cort Buffington]

Don,

two completely different antenna and feedline systems. I swap them  
where each separate antenna/feedline system connects to the duplexer.


The Telewave meter is new because I didn't trust my ham-type meters...  
(I've needed a real meter for years anyway) The Telewave shows a  
little less forward power and a little lower VSWR than the cheap  
comets. I did a quick check of the telewave by transmitting various  
signal levels into my IFR 1200S (currently in calibration from  
Aeroflex) I then transmitted the same signals into the telewave with a  
nice big DB load I've trusted for years on it. The Telewave was within  
a few % of the IFR. I know that's not a perfect method, but new meter,  
agrees with IFR in my limited testing format. I'm probably pretty  
confident of it.


Problems before and after vertical alignment. If the feedline/ 
connector is damaged it was damaged when we put this system up -- from  
tower on the ground. I mean, we did it ALL three weeks ago. Saturday  
morning there was a pile of parts, by sundown it was all assembled and  
installed. No rain at all between erection and the first round of  
testing. After significant rains, no change.


Thanks Don!
Cort

On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:24 PM, Don Kupferschmidt wrote:


Cort,

I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your  
post.


One 440 machine. One duplexer. Two antennas connected to two feedlines
which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire?  
Only one
feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way? One  
hardline /
antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave  
ANT450F10)

works bad?

The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter. I'd get a hold  
of a
Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings. That's the easiest  
thing to

do.

If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the  
Telewave

system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise. You need to rule out
either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time.
Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or
duplexer termination.

How long ago was the antenna system put up? Was there some heavy  
rain in
the area that water could have been introduced into the connector /  
hardline

if they weren't properly water-proofed?

Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing  
that
the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical. In re-reading  
your post
over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment  
and then
implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to  
cause

the hardline / antenna system to react that way.

Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem.

Don, KD9PT

- Original Message -
From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

> Folks,
>
> My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440  
machine. We

> have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to
> put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"
> heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet  
down

> from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.
> So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The  
DB420

> is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90
> degrees rotated.
>
> The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)
> with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but
> on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns
> approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to
> town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a
> straight shot connecting them.
>
> The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is
> working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting  
in

> full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit
> differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the
> Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all
> directions.
>
> Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things
> look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is
> 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make
> sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit  
that

> has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who
> advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is
> critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little  
down-
> tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see  
not

> real appreciable difference.
>
> For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with  
the

> feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave
> also HIGHLY 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Cort Buffington]

LDF4.5-50A
http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=466137&eventGroup=4&eventPage=1
1.05dB loss at 450MHz @ 100'

DB420 spacing -- spacing and mounting per DB Products/Andrew/ComScope,  
etc. :) instructions, I agree, it's never perfect, just wanted to be  
clear that it is all "by the book".


Will keep looking -- measuring power at the feedline-antenna  
connection is my next step. Thanks for the input Robert -- this helps!



On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:18 PM, KD4PBC wrote:


Cort,

Do you really have 5/8" ?
Here are the part numbers for the coax

LDF4-50A 1/2 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~1.447
LDF5-50A 7/8 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~ .808
LDF6-50A 1 1/4 50 ohms
LDF7-50A 1 5/8 50 ohms

So if you have the real deal feed line loss doesn't look like your  
problem
If you have something else all bets are off send me what number is  
on the

cable.

The Telewave antenna (actuality ANY Telewave antenna) is problematic.
We tried using several in the paging business most likely for the same
reason you did they are cheap.
They never performed as well as advertised.

If you want a "cheap" antenna the best for the money is and ASP705K by
Decibel Products (or whatever they are this week)
They work well have a nice round pattern. And will generally out  
perform a

DB-420 because of less pattern distortion.

The statement "The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower"  
concerns me as

there is no "correct" way to side mount an antenna.
You must take in to account the desired v. undesired coverage areas  
and

optimize the mount and elements to achieve the desired coverage.

On that antenna with an 18" face tower mounted 16" off the point of  
the

tower set in an omni configuration
You will see peaks of around 10.5dBd and nulls of around 5dBd.

I see nothing here that would indicate that the Telewave system is
performing correctly.
Remember to take into the feed line loss when calculating SWR. That  
is if

you are putting a 100 watts into the feed line and get 50 watts back
That indicates a fault at the top as you have 100 watts and 2.894dB  
loss

(1.447*2 up and down) that would be half power of 50 watts.

Do some more looking before you call the antenna bad.

Robert / KD4PBC

-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:17 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

Folks,

My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We
have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to
put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"
heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down
from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.
So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420
is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90
degrees rotated.

The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)
with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but
on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns
approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to
town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a
straight shot connecting them.

The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is
working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in
full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit
differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the
Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all
directions.

Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things
look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is
1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make
sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that
has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who
advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is
critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little  
down-

tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not
real appreciable difference.

For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the
feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave
also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this
installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and
recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because
of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and
the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW
vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought
that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all)
wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away.

In any event I seek advice and

Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Don Kupferschmidt]

Cort,

I need to understand if I have all the information correct from your post.

One 440 machine.  One duplexer.  Two antennas connected to two feedlines 
which can either be terminated to the duplexer as you so desire?  Only one 
feedline to one antenna, not coupled or combined in any way?  One hardline / 
antenna works good (DB420) and one hardline / antenna (Telewave ANT450F10) 
works bad?

The first step is to verify the Telewave wattmeter.  I'd get a hold of a 
Bird 43 or equivalent and verify your readings.  That's the easiest thing to 
do.

If your forward / reverse numbers are accurate then I'd suspect the Telewave 
system or it's hardline, unless proven otherwise.  You need to rule out 
either the antenna or the hardline by substitution, and one at a time. 
Possible issues could be bad connectors either at the antenna base or 
duplexer termination.

How long ago was the antenna system put up?  Was there some heavy rain in 
the area that water could have been introduced into the connector / hardline 
if they weren't properly water-proofed?

Unless someone contradicts me here, I'm having a hard time believing that 
the vertical alignment of the Telewave is critical.  In re-reading your post 
over a couple of times I'm wondering when you checked the alignment and then 
implemented a little down-tilt you may have done something wrong to cause 
the hardline / antenna system to react that way.

Keep us posted and good luck with finding out the problem.

Don, KD9PT


- Original Message - 
From: "Cort Buffington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion


> Folks,
>
> My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We
> have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to
> put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"
> heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down
> from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.
> So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420
> is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90
> degrees rotated.
>
> The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)
> with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but
> on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns
> approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to
> town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a
> straight shot connecting them.
>
> The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is
> working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in
> full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit
> differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the
> Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all
> directions.
>
> Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things
> look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is
> 1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make
> sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that
> has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who
> advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is
> critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down-
> tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not
> real appreciable difference.
>
> For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the
> feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave
> also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this
> installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and
> recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because
> of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and
> the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW
> vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought
> that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all)
> wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away.
>
> In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to
> check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to
> take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance
> rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if
> necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has
> appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than
> the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter
> intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the
> horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience
> and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list,
> which has saved me many times.
>
> Your thoughts 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[KD4PBC]

Cort, 

Do you really have 5/8" ?  
Here are the part numbers for the coax

LDF4-50A 1/2 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~1.447 
LDF5-50A 7/8 50 ohms - loss at 450MHz ~ .808
LDF6-50A 1 1/4 50 ohms
LDF7-50A 1 5/8 50 ohms

So if you have the real deal feed line loss doesn't look like your problem
If you have something else all bets are off send me what number is on the
cable.  

The Telewave antenna (actuality ANY Telewave antenna) is problematic. 
We tried using several in the paging business most likely for the same
reason you did they are cheap. 
They never performed as well as advertised. 

If you want a "cheap" antenna the best for the money is and ASP705K by
Decibel Products (or whatever they are this week) 
They work well have a nice round pattern. And will generally out perform a
DB-420 because of less pattern distortion. 

The statement "The DB420 is spaced correctly from the tower" concerns me as
there is no "correct" way to side mount an antenna. 
You must take in to account the desired v. undesired coverage areas and
optimize the mount and elements to achieve the desired coverage.

On that antenna with an 18" face tower mounted 16" off the point of the
tower set in an omni configuration 
You will see peaks of around 10.5dBd and nulls of around 5dBd. 

I see nothing here that would indicate that the Telewave system is
performing correctly. 
Remember to take into the feed line loss when calculating SWR. That is if
you are putting a 100 watts into the feed line and get 50 watts back 
That indicates a fault at the top as you have 100 watts and 2.894dB loss
(1.447*2 up and down) that would be half power of 50 watts. 

Do some more looking before you call the antenna bad. 

Robert / KD4PBC



-Original Message-
From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cort Buffington
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:17 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

Folks,

My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We  
have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to  
put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"  
heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down  
from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.  
So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420  
is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90  
degrees rotated.

The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)  
with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but  
on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns  
approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to  
town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a  
straight shot connecting them.

The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is  
working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in  
full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit  
differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the  
Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all  
directions.

Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things  
look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is  
1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make  
sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that  
has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who  
advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is  
critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- 
tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not  
real appreciable difference.

For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the  
feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave  
also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this  
installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and  
recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because  
of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and  
the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW  
vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought  
that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all)  
wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away.

In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to  
check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to  
take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance  
rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if  
necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has  
appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than  
the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers

[Kevin Custer]

Randy wrote:
> ICS...Integrated Circuit Systems...
> ICM...Integrated Circuit Manufactor...
>  Manufactors make them...Systems use & sell them.
> Sorry I'm wrong for trying to help.

Look Randy,

You obviously don't know anything about ICS Controllers located at:
http://www.ics-ctrl.com/

OR

International Crystal located at:
http://www.icmfg.com/

You are on a Repeater Builder list. 
ICM to the folks here means International Crystal Manufacturing, not 
Integrated Circuit Manufacturer.
ICS here relates to Integrated Control Systems, not Integrated Circuit 
Systems.

You aren't helping anyone by giving incorrect information.  Please do a 
little homework before putting your foot in your mouth.

Kevin Custer
List Owner

[Repeater-Builder] UHF Repeater Antenna Discussion

[Cort Buffington]

Folks,

My repeater partner and I have recently placed our new 440 machine. We  
have realized some odd issues. We bought a new Telewave ANT450F10 to  
put on top of the 100' tower, fed with a new piece of Andrew 5/8"  
heliax. We also side-mounted an old DB420 with the top a few feet down  
from the top of the tower with about 85' of old 7/8" Andrew heliax.  
So, we put smokin' new gear on top, and smokin old below it. The DB420  
is spaced correctly from the tower and is set up with each half 90  
degrees rotated.

The tower is on relatively high pasture land (for NE Kansas anyway)  
with a nice clear view all around. I'll not say we're on a hill, but  
on relatively high ground. We are attempting to cover two towns  
approximately 25 miles apart. We are 1/3 of the way from town 1 to  
town 2 and about 3 miles N of the highway that pretty much is a  
straight shot connecting them.

The Telewave setup on top performs poorly. The DB420 on the side is  
working great. By this difference, I mean signals that are getting in  
full quieting on the DB420 are very noisy on the Telewave. Transmit  
differences mirror receive. S9 reception on the DB420, switch to the  
Telewave and it's S1-S3. We experience this phenomenon in all  
directions.

Wattmeter (yes, it is a "real one" -- Telewave 44) says that things  
look good as far as loading both antennas -- DB420 is 1.43:1, F10 is  
1.39:1. We are about to climb and take readings at the top to make  
sure there is no feed problem with the Telewave 'F10, and I admit that  
has not been done yet. We did have a discussion with Telewave, who  
advised that vertical alignment of the F10 (as they refer to it) is  
critical. We have checked alignment and even implemented a little down- 
tilt in the most important direction (just a few degrees). We see not  
real appreciable difference.

For you repeater elmers out there: If we don't find a problem with the  
feedline on the Telewave antenna, does this make any sense? Telewave  
also HIGHLY recommended that the F10 isn't a good fit for this  
installation due to its extremely narrow vertical beamwidth, and  
recommended that a 4-bay dipole of theirs would be MUCH better because  
of the ability to tune the pattern to our desired coverage area and  
the increased vertical beamwidth. I always thought I wanted NARROW  
vertical beamwidth to keep the RF on the horizon. I would have thought  
that 100' up on relatively high ground (this is Kansas, after all)  
wouldn't have a real problem shooting over the top 10 - 30 miles away.

In any event I seek advice and wisdom, and yes, we are planning to  
check the coax for loss at the earliest convenience. I would like to  
take advantage of the top slot on the tower for improved performance  
rather than stay on the lower spot, and will try another antenna if  
necessary. I'm just having a hard time imagining that the F10 has  
appreciably narrower vertical beam as a 9.something dBd antenna than  
the F10 as a 10dBd antenna, etc. etc. And it also seems counter  
intuitive that a taller vertical beamwidth and less gain on the  
horizon in this application would be better. I trust the experience  
and knowledge of Telewave, but I also trust the wisdom from this list,  
which has saved me many times.

Your thoughts gentlemen?

--
Cort Buffington
H: +1-785-838-3034
M: +1-785-865-7206

[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers

[Randy]

ICS...Integrated Circuit Systems...
ICM...Integrated Circuit Manufactor...
 Manufactors make them...Systems use & sell them.
Sorry I'm wrong for trying to help.
.
In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal 
> Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers.  I doubt Sara 
> Gore works for Brian at ICS.  Call the number, and ICM will answer, 
> not ICS.
> 
> Shorty, K6JSI
> 
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  wrote:
> >
> > --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers.
> > .
> > In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi"  wrote:
> > >
> > > What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers?
> > > 
> > > Shorty, K6JSI
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call 
them.
> > > > Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237
> > > > .
> > > >  In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "kb5vjy"  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website?  
I 
> > > needed to
> > > > > download the basic manual.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 73 de Joe KB5VJY
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

BZZT !Wrong answer.  Thank you for playing.

If you google "800-725-1426" you find 152 pointers, all
pointing to International Crystal.



At 06:51 PM 10/15/08, you wrote:
>--- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers.
>.
>In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers?
> >
> > Shorty, K6JSI
> >
> >
> > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  wrote:
> > >
> > > ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them.
> > > Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237
> > > .
> > >  In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "kb5vjy"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website?  I
> > needed to
> > > > download the basic manual.
> > > >
> > > > 73 de Joe KB5VJY
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers

[Jeff Kincaid]

There must be a dwindling number of people who can recognize the ICM
number on sight.  It's no surprise to me that Shorty would be one of
them; I have reason to know how long he's been dealing with them.  

Hi Shorty!

Jeff W6JK (ex WA6BIL)

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal 
> Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers.  I doubt Sara 
> Gore works for Brian at ICS.  Call the number, and ICM will answer, 
> not ICS.
> 
> Shorty, K6JSI
> 
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  wrote:
> >
> > --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers.
> > .
> > In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi"  wrote:
> > >
> > > What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers?
> > > 
> > > Shorty, K6JSI
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them.
> > > > Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237
> > > > .
> > > >  In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "kb5vjy"  
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website?  I 
> > > needed to
> > > > > download the basic manual.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 73 de Joe KB5VJY
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay

[skipp025]

Don't sweat it George... you now have the manual and you paid 
much less than the "got to have it now price", which seems to now 
be about $100 per book (as seen in/on some of the Ebay Stores). 

Avoid loaning the book out off premise and you'll be just fine. 

cheers, 
s. 

> Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay 

> Aggghhh!   I just paid $40 for the "C" revision 
> (at least I talked the guy down from $59...) 
> George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay

[George Henry]

Aggghhh!   I just paid $40 for the "C" revision (at least I talked 
the guy down from $59...)


George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413



- Original Message 
From: skipp025 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 11:21:25 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay


OK you MSR-2000 guys... there's a Manual available on 
Ebay... it's the Station Control Manual, which is the 
Service Manual for the Modules (Cards) in the back plane 
(chassis) but you should have this book along with the 
matching RF Manual for your repeater service needs. The 
smart way to go would be to have the other two RF Manuals, 
one for VHF and the other for the UHF Package as I believe 
only the VHF RF Manual has the Power Supply information 
unless you have a special version of the book. 

Motorola Manual MSR 2000 BASE & REPEATER #68P81061E40- B 
Ebay Item number: 390001501899 

cheers, 
s. 

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Z-match help?

[Jeff DePolo]

> 
> Despite GE's LBIs on adjusting these networks, I adjust them for
> maximum amplifier efficiency, not following the LBI instructions. 
> Makes a big difference in amplifier current draw if done carefully.
> 
> Laryn K8TVZ

I strongly second the motion.  The procedure in the LBI is having you tune
for least reflected power as monitored at the directional coupler.  That's
not necessarily the most efficient operating point (load Z) for the devices.
Monitor DC current draw and tune for max efficiency at the desired power
output.

--- Jeff WN3A

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Rptr Exciter Audio Inject Point

[Kevin Custer]

n6nr wrote:
> I am having a problem with the audio coming from my remote base 
> receiver.  I am using a LINKR2A controller.  I originally used the de-
> emphasis jumper setting, but it sounded too treble, so went back to 
> the broader spectrum setting. 
>
> SNIP
> It looks like I may have to build an RC filter of my own to clip off 
> the PL before it gets to the controller.

Here are several:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/pl-filter/


>   Does anyone have a 
> suggestion as to a better place to inject the audio?

Yes,  If you have a Micor Unified Station, Read this:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/stationmod.html

Standard Mobile conversion?  Read this:
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/micorvhfmobile.html

Railroad Mobile?
http://www.repeater-builder.com/rbtip/railroad.html

Kevin Custer

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Motorola MSR-2000 Manual available on Ebay

[Mike Morris WA6ILQ]

At 06:29 PM 10/15/08, you wrote:
>Looking for the UHF msr 2000 manual here---anyone please/ tnx
>
>Jerry VE3 EXT


Fifteen seconds typing the string "msr2000 manual uhf " less the 
quotes resulted in this:


Current price is US$15

There is also a VHF manual at

[Repeater-Builder] Re: ICS Controllers

[k6jsi]

The phone number you gace is for ICM, International Crystal 
Manufaturing in Tulsa Oklahoma, NOT ICS Controllers.  I doubt Sara 
Gore works for Brian at ICS.  Call the number, and ICM will answer, 
not ICS.

Shorty, K6JSI


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- She works for the company that makes the ICS controllers.
> .
> In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "k6jsi"  wrote:
> >
> > What does Sara Gore at ICM have to do with ICS Controllers?
> > 
> > Shorty, K6JSI
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Randy"  wrote:
> > >
> > > ---If your having a problem, maybe you might want to call them.
> > > Sara Gore...800-725-1426 xt 237
> > > .
> > >  In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "kb5vjy"  
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is anyone else having a problem getting to ICS's Website?  I 
> > needed to
> > > > download the basic manual.
> > > > 
> > > > 73 de Joe KB5VJY
> > > >
> > >
> >
>