Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 04:47 PM 12/29/07, you wrote: Let's see what is wrong with my statement. The repeater controller keys up the link radio via the PTT. The Audio Delay Board places a one second delay on the audio being sent to the link radio. This allows the 2 Alinco radios on either side of the link to key up and the PL encode/decode functions to complete. After the 1 second delay, the audio is passed through to the other repeater that is being linked to. ... and the n the person stops talking and the Alinco takes SECONDS to stop decoding PL... then there si the dealy until the relying person presses his PTT, and another 1 second delay for his audio to start coming back to you. Why will this not work? Because you haven't thought it all the way through. Will you be able to tolerate 3-4 seconds of delay each time the conversation turns around? Return the Alincos, and get a decent radio. A pair of M10, M50, M100, M120 or similar Maxtrac or Radius radios are all you need. Mike WA6ILQ
[Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
My 2 friends just linked their 440 machines together using an Alinco DR-235T at each end for the link. They did find that there is a delay in time in which the decoder takes to decode and release. They are going to fix this by using Audio Delay Modules in the controllers at each end of the link. Also, using a high PL tone should help the decoder decode faster. 73, Joe, K1ike The Alinco 435T may be easy to set up, but the quality of the radio is lacking. The CTCSS decoder takes a minimum of 1 second to release, sometimes as long as 10 seconds. The RX front end also has an oscillation problem, causing blocking of random frequencies. The DB9 may be convenient but the 6 pin packet connector found on many radios isn't difficult to work with at all. If you buy a PS/2 mouse extension cable at your local computer store or eBay cut off the female connector, you can wire that to your IRLP board the male end plugs right into the radio. On the Kenwood G707 some of these cables don't quite fit out of the box because the radio's connector is recessed. A little carving of the molding on the PS/2 cable connector with an Exacto knife or Dremel takes care of that. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: My 2 friends just linked their 440 machines together using an Alinco DR-235T at each end for the link. They did find that there is a delay in time in which the decoder takes to decode and release. They are going to fix this by using Audio Delay Modules in the controllers at each end of the link. Also, using a high PL tone should help the decoder decode faster. Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're talking microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one at the top end. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
Have you ever used a delay board and know what it can do? Ken Arck wrote: At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're talking microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one at the top end. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 04:32 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Have you ever used a delay board and know what it can do? ---Oh I think I have an idea what they do, yes. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
Let's see what is wrong with my statement. The repeater controller keys up the link radio via the PTT. The Audio Delay Board places a one second delay on the audio being sent to the link radio. This allows the 2 Alinco radios on either side of the link to key up and the PL encode/decode functions to complete. After the 1 second delay, the audio is passed through to the other repeater that is being linked to. Why will this not work? Ken Arck wrote: At 04:32 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Have you ever used a delay board and know what it can do? ---Oh I think I have an idea what they do, yes. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 04:47 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Let's see what is wrong with my statement. The repeater controller keys up the link radio via the PTT. The Audio Delay Board places a one second delay on the audio being sent to the link radio. This allows the 2 Alinco radios on either side of the link to key up and the PL encode/decode functions to complete. After the 1 second delay, the audio is passed through to the other repeater that is being linked to. Why will this not work? ---You're missing the point. Using the delay board as you explain above will help with the slow takeup of the Alinco's decoder but it will do nothing for the extraordinarily long delay when the decoder STOPS decoding. Not to mention adding a 1 second delay to audio passing between the 2 repeaters. Your users are gonna hate it, trust me. IMHO, your best option is to use an external decoder in each radio and be done with it. The delay board bandaid is simply that - a bandaid and not a fix. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
One other thing to consider. If one user is on repeater A and the other user being talked with is on the other repeater, you have a 2 second delay in turnover between the two. As I said, your users are gonna hate it. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
Your original comment was: Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. A delay board will help fix both problems. The only question is how much delay needs to be put into the system to make it work acceptably (not perfectly). The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable for 64, 128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board). I really doubt that 1 second will be required, but I gave my example using the longest delay available to make a point. All we need to do is to experiment with the delay value and find and acceptable value. 73, Joe, K1ike
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
Like I said, IMHO you're applying a band aid instead of fixing the root problem. Butto each his own :-) Are you going to use COS from the receiver to gate the audio in/out of the delay board? Ken At 05:11 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Your original comment was: Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. A delay board will help fix both problems. The only question is how much delay needs to be put into the system to make it work acceptably (not perfectly). The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable for 64, 128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board). I really doubt that 1 second will be required, but I gave my example using the longest delay available to make a point. All we need to do is to experiment with the delay value and find and acceptable value. 73, Joe, K1ike -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
I haven't figured out exactly what Pin #1 SQC Squelch Signal Output lead characteristics of the Alinco DR-235T is. This is probably the COS that I will use from the receiver. I would like it to be a AND PL+COS output, but it probably is only PL decode out. We are going to experiment with DCS , as the DR-235T does CTCSS or DCS. Maybe the DCS encode/decode on the radio is better than the CTCSS operation. Yes, this is not the best fix for the problem. My attempt is to make off-the-shelf products work in an acceptable configuration. Given an unlimited budget and unlimited time one could come up with a much better setup. 73, Joe, K1ike Nothing is totally useless, as it can always serve as a bad example. Ken Arck wrote: Like I said, IMHO you're applying a band aid instead of fixing the root problem. Butto each his own :-) Are you going to use COS from the receiver to gate the audio in/out of the delay board? Ken At 05:11 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: Your original comment was: Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. A delay board will help fix both problems. The only question is how much delay needs to be put into the system to make it work acceptably (not perfectly). The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable for 64, 128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board). I really doubt that 1 second will be required, but I gave my example using the longest delay available to make a point. All we need to do is to experiment with the delay value and find and acceptable value. 73, Joe, K1ike -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net http://www.irlp.net/ We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
Hi Joe, The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable for 64, 128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board). That delay board uses the MX609 Delta Modulation CODEC, a device with a S/N ratio of 30-35 dB (at the highest sampling rate; varies with frequency) and a frequency response of 300-3400 Hz (MX-COM document 20480069.004). ICS (_www.ics-ctrl.com_ (http://www.ics-ctrl.com) ) sells the S-COM-designed DADM, a delay board with a S/N ratio of 60 dB and a frequency response of 30-5000 Hz. It's also cheaper. 73, Bob Bob Schmid, WA9FBO, Member S-COM, LLC PO Box 1546 LaPorte CO 80535-1546 970-416-6505 voice 970-419-3222 fax www.scomcontrollers.com **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 12/29/2007 14:33, you wrote: At 02:29 PM 12/29/2007, you wrote: My 2 friends just linked their 440 machines together using an Alinco DR-235T at each end for the link. They did find that there is a delay in time in which the decoder takes to decode and release. They are going to fix this by using Audio Delay Modules in the controllers at each end of the link. Also, using a high PL tone should help the decoder decode faster. Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. And a using a higher tone probably won't help either. You're talking microseconds in difference between a tone at the low range and one at the top end. Ken This reminds me of an experiment I did with a pair of the first Bendix/King (then just King) synthesized commercial VHF HTs. I noticed that one could program a CTCSS frequency as low at 10 Hz, so I set up a pair using this tone, they worked! The CTCSS decode speed wasn't that slow either. The reason was that the absolute decode bandwidth was just as wide at 10 Hz as it was at 100 Hz. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 12/29/2007 16:47, you wrote: Let's see what is wrong with my statement. The repeater controller keys up the link radio via the PTT. The Audio Delay Board places a one second delay on the audio being sent to the Who makes an ADM that can produce a 1 second delay? Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Linking with the Alinco DR-235T tranceivers
At 12/29/2007 17:11, you wrote: Your original comment was: Nope. A delay board won't do a thing for the decode pickup time and probably not for the release time either. A delay board will help fix both problems. The only question is how much delay needs to be put into the system to make it work acceptably (not perfectly). The delay board we are going to be using is adjustable for 64, 128, 256, 512 or 1024 milliseconds of delay. (NHRC-DAD board). The above answers my own question, so disregard my previous query. Still, such an ADM doesn't solve the problem for the reason Ken mentions (excessive voice delay in the system). Best to use outboard CTCSS decoders. Bob NO6B
