Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
What's the rationale behind removing the integrated mocking framework? Can you not still use Mocha or FlexMock or whatever else you'd like to use still? Meanwhile, the integrated mocking framework in RSpec provides a ready and able mocking framework for anyone just starting out with RSpec. In my experience, people are more apt to begin to use a new thing if it's already there waiting for them. Chris Pratt On 9/6/07, Christoph Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/5/07, Steven R. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wilson Bilkovich wrote: On 9/5/07, Christoph Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One thing is clear, mocha is much nicer than the integrated mocking, nicer syntax, better errormessages, better everything. The rspec mocking framework could never compete with mocha or flexmock on its own. At the time it was created there were good reasons for that, just like there are good reasons to deprecate it now. I would be 100% OK with this for version 1.1 or 1.2 or whatever, as long as Mocha was the only 'recommendation', and the rspec gem had a listed gem dependency on Mocha. It's the 'choice' I object to, not the specifics of which mock framework we happen to use. To clarify, you just want a default mock framework, instead of being forced to make the decision yourself? Ok, I am in no way saying anything against flexmock, Its probably great, but I never tried it. What I tried was rspec mocking and mocha, and I liked mocha much better. And I do think there should be a default, for the generated code. regards chris ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
everybody in this thread is reacting like you are about to remove the built in mocking. The idea was to deprecate it, something like if you use the build in mocking right now, fine. If you start a new project dont use it One thing is clear, mocha is much nicer than the integrated mocking, nicer syntax, better errormessages, better everything. The rspec mocking framework could never compete with mocha or flexmock on its own. At the time it was created there were good reasons for that, just like there are good reasons to deprecate it now. No one should be forced to migrate an old project over to new mocks, but thats not what we are talking about. Maybe you should just keep the built in mocking, but recommend mocha for new projects, and start using mocha for the samples and generated specs. I recognize that some people like flexmock better, but having one recommended framework would make it much easier for people to get started. (It will almost feel like mocha was built in :P) It really feels strange to hear these complains about rspec not having everything built in, because the main complain for me and others about rspec was always that its too big and has its own mocking that you have to use. (This is fixed now and rspec plays very nice with mocha, great) regards christoph On 9/3/07, David Chelimsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I've talked this over w/ a couple of the other committers and we've decided that we will NOT be deprecating the mock framework, at least for the foreseeable future. If/when we do, it will happen with plenty of notice and a clear, painless (as much as is possible) upgrade path. To be clear: this decision is purely pragmatic. Benefits of the existing framework cited in this thread are significant (one-stop shop, generated specs for the rails plugin, etc). And the amount of work it would take to do it right (backwards compatibility, easy upgrade path, support for multiple external frameworks, etc) far exceeds the perceived cost of maintaining the existing framework. Cheers, David ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Lance Carlson wrote: If core was to deprecate the included mocking framework, then why would they favor mocha over flexmock? I agree we need to have some agreement as to which one to use, but why the favoritism? If my grandmother had wheels, would she be a skateboard? They're not deprecating it.. we don't need to choose which one we would potentially hypothetically someday choose. Jay ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/5/07, Christoph Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everybody in this thread is reacting like you are about to remove the built in mocking. The idea was to deprecate it, something like if you use the build in mocking right now, fine. If you start a new project dont use it One thing is clear, mocha is much nicer than the integrated mocking, nicer syntax, better errormessages, better everything. The rspec mocking framework could never compete with mocha or flexmock on its own. At the time it was created there were good reasons for that, just like there are good reasons to deprecate it now. I would be 100% OK with this for version 1.1 or 1.2 or whatever, as long as Mocha was the only 'recommendation', and the rspec gem had a listed gem dependency on Mocha. It's the 'choice' I object to, not the specifics of which mock framework we happen to use. ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/5/07, Steven R. Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wilson Bilkovich wrote: On 9/5/07, Christoph Sturm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: everybody in this thread is reacting like you are about to remove the built in mocking. The idea was to deprecate it, something like if you use the build in mocking right now, fine. If you start a new project dont use it One thing is clear, mocha is much nicer than the integrated mocking, nicer syntax, better errormessages, better everything. The rspec mocking framework could never compete with mocha or flexmock on its own. At the time it was created there were good reasons for that, just like there are good reasons to deprecate it now. I would be 100% OK with this for version 1.1 or 1.2 or whatever, as long as Mocha was the only 'recommendation', and the rspec gem had a listed gem dependency on Mocha. It's the 'choice' I object to, not the specifics of which mock framework we happen to use. To clarify, you just want a default mock framework, instead of being forced to make the decision yourself? Yep. Just so. ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Personally, I dont want to become an expert at the range of possible testing and mocking tools. I just want a solid framework to get my work done, recommended by experts like you. And the less different components I need to install and maintain, the better. So I prefer the integrated approach we've had in Rspec up to now. Jonathan On Sep 3, 2007, at 12:08 AM, Zach Dennis wrote: On 9/2/07, Andrew WC Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that makes sense. Which do you recommend? Flexmock or Mocha? I wouldn't recommend either of them by themselves, at least the current way they sit. Jim Weirich may be adding globally ordered strict mocks, which if he does then I think Flexmock will be the first mocking library in ruby to cover all mocking needs (as far as I know). Mocha (and RSpec mocks too) don't support globally strict ordered mocks. Hardmock is another mocking library which is just strict mocking (no stubs, no partial mocks). Right now I prefer Mocha + Hardmock, but I'm eagerly awaiting to see if Flexmock gets globally strict ordered mocks. Zach Dennis http://www.continuousthinking.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
I would like to know if the mock framework will be deprecated, since I have a pair of feature requests, and I don't know where to request them: 1) Alternative expectations: mock.should_receive(:save). and_return(false). or_receive(:save!). and_raise(ActiveRecord::RecordNotSaved) 2) Chained stubs/expectations mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(false) mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(true).after_receiving(:save).and_return(true) I'm sure that this needs no more explanation :) On 9/3/07, Zach Dennis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/2/07, Andrew WC Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that makes sense. Which do you recommend? Flexmock or Mocha? I wouldn't recommend either of them by themselves, at least the current way they sit. Jim Weirich may be adding globally ordered strict mocks, which if he does then I think Flexmock will be the first mocking library in ruby to cover all mocking needs (as far as I know). Mocha (and RSpec mocks too) don't support globally strict ordered mocks. Hardmock is another mocking library which is just strict mocking (no stubs, no partial mocks). Right now I prefer Mocha + Hardmock, but I'm eagerly awaiting to see if Flexmock gets globally strict ordered mocks. Zach Dennis http://www.continuousthinking.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users -- http://papipo.blogspot.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/3/07, Rodrigo Alvarez Fernández [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/3/07, Peter Marklund [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) Chained stubs/expectations mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(false) mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(true).after_receiving (:save).and_return(true) On first look, that last line is pretty hard to read. I think I understand the intention now, but I'm not sure it harmonizes with the Clarity over Cleverness motto. I understand that there are maybe too many method calls there, but it would be a nice feature. Another approach could be using blocks: mock.stub?(:save).and_return(true) do |saved_mock| saved_mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(true) end WDYT? This seems kind of funky. If an AR object can be saved then it's going to be valid anyway. In other words my_object.valid? # false my_object.save# true my_object.valid? # true is a super weird sequence. What context is this in? At first glance (i.e. with no context) I don't think that's a good use for mocks. You're introducing behavior and state into the mock (when save is called, change my valid state to true) which is getting a bit clever and mixing concerns imo. The mocks created via the framework should be pretty stupid and just respond how you want them to. If you do need some actual behavior then I suggest you code up another object that behaves as you need. However as I said that's just a strange sequence anyway, which suggests that maybe your design is a bit off. Pat ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/3/07, Scott Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 3, 2007, at 5:19 AM, Rodrigo Alvarez Fernández wrote: I would like to know if the mock framework will be deprecated, since I have a pair of feature requests, and I don't know where to request them: 1) Alternative expectations: mock.should_receive(:save). and_return(false). or_receive(:save!). and_raise(ActiveRecord::RecordNotSaved) 2) Chained stubs/expectations mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(false) mock.stub!(:valid?).and_return(true).after_receiving (:save).and_return(true) Maybe this can be accomplished with ordered stubs. rSpec mocks support only ordered expectations, doesn't it? I'm sure that this needs no more explanation :) Or we could do as flexmock does (and which I find much more readable): mock.stub!(method1.method2.method3).and_return(true) Scott ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users -- http://papipo.blogspot.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Zach, I believe version 0.7.0 has the global ordering you are looking for: Version 0.7.0 Added and_yield as an expectation clause. Inspect on Mocks now yield a more consise description. Global ordering across all mocks in a container is now allowed. Added support for Demeter chain mocking. Deprecated a number of mock_* methods. -Chad On Sep 3, 2007, at 12:08 AM, Zach Dennis wrote: On 9/2/07, Andrew WC Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that makes sense. Which do you recommend? Flexmock or Mocha? I wouldn't recommend either of them by themselves, at least the current way they sit. Jim Weirich may be adding globally ordered strict mocks, which if he does then I think Flexmock will be the first mocking library in ruby to cover all mocking needs (as far as I know). Mocha (and RSpec mocks too) don't support globally strict ordered mocks. Hardmock is another mocking library which is just strict mocking (no stubs, no partial mocks). Right now I prefer Mocha + Hardmock, but I'm eagerly awaiting to see if Flexmock gets globally strict ordered mocks. Zach Dennis http://www.continuousthinking.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Hi all, I've talked this over w/ a couple of the other committers and we've decided that we will NOT be deprecating the mock framework, at least for the foreseeable future. If/when we do, it will happen with plenty of notice and a clear, painless (as much as is possible) upgrade path. To be clear: this decision is purely pragmatic. Benefits of the existing framework cited in this thread are significant (one-stop shop, generated specs for the rails plugin, etc). And the amount of work it would take to do it right (backwards compatibility, easy upgrade path, support for multiple external frameworks, etc) far exceeds the perceived cost of maintaining the existing framework. Cheers, David ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/1/07, rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 10:04, Tom Stuart wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 09:31, rupert wrote: Are we planning on dumping the mock framework in favor of using Mocha The idea has been bandied around on the dev list recently This decision, if it is made in this manner, is suicide for RSpec. I have been a huge RSpec booster, but this will make me drop it like a hot coal. =( ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/2/07, Wilson Bilkovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/1/07, rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 10:04, Tom Stuart wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 09:31, rupert wrote: Are we planning on dumping the mock framework in favor of using Mocha The idea has been bandied around on the dev list recently This decision, if it is made in this manner, is suicide for RSpec. I simply don't understand this statement. Why is this such a big deal? RSpec's mock framework offers pretty much ZERO over mocha or flexmock - the only thing is that it saves you from typing 24 or 27 characters in a config file, depending on your preference. 21 if you use RR. After that, the functionality is pretty much the same as the other frameworks. I have been a huge RSpec booster, but this will make me drop it like a hot coal. Again - I can't understand where you're coming from here. If you start using test/unit or test/spec or any of the other bdd frameworks you'll still need to make a decision about a mock framework. What is the pain that you're perceiving that will come along w/ us dumping the mock framework? Perhaps there's something we can do to minimize that pain once we know what it is. Cheers, David =( ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On Sep 2, 2007, at 12:55 PM, David Chelimsky wrote: On 9/2/07, Wilson Bilkovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/1/07, rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 10:04, Tom Stuart wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 09:31, rupert wrote: Are we planning on dumping the mock framework in favor of using Mocha The idea has been bandied around on the dev list recently This decision, if it is made in this manner, is suicide for RSpec. I simply don't understand this statement. Why is this such a big deal? RSpec's mock framework offers pretty much ZERO over mocha or flexmock - the only thing is that it saves you from typing 24 or 27 characters in a config file, depending on your preference. 21 if you use RR. After that, the functionality is pretty much the same as the other frameworks I'm a little confused about this discussion. Why don't we just do the following: 1. Hand off the mocking/stubbing framework off to someone else. It will be their project 2. Make the mocking/stubbing framework a dependency of the rspec gem 3. Make it the default (as it is now) 4. Provide clear directions for changing mocking frameworks (as we have now). I thought the end goal with refactoring the mocking framework out was not that we shouldn't be using it, but, that we (David, Aslak, Brian, etc) won't have to maintain it. Or am I missing something? Scott ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
On 9/2/07, Scott Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 2, 2007, at 12:55 PM, David Chelimsky wrote: On 9/2/07, Wilson Bilkovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/1/07, rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 10:04, Tom Stuart wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 09:31, rupert wrote: Are we planning on dumping the mock framework in favor of using Mocha The idea has been bandied around on the dev list recently This decision, if it is made in this manner, is suicide for RSpec. I simply don't understand this statement. Why is this such a big deal? RSpec's mock framework offers pretty much ZERO over mocha or flexmock - the only thing is that it saves you from typing 24 or 27 characters in a config file, depending on your preference. 21 if you use RR. After that, the functionality is pretty much the same as the other frameworks I'm a little confused about this discussion. Why don't we just do the following: 1. Hand off the mocking/stubbing framework off to someone else. It will be their project 2. Make the mocking/stubbing framework a dependency of the rspec gem 3. Make it the default (as it is now) 4. Provide clear directions for changing mocking frameworks (as we have now). I thought the end goal with refactoring the mocking framework out was not that we shouldn't be using it, but, that we (David, Aslak, Brian, etc) won't have to maintain it. Or am I missing something? Well, it's not simply a matter of US maintaining it. It's a matter of it being maintained at all in light of the fact that mocha and flexmock exist. Put simply, there never should have been an rspec mock framework. But here we are. In my view, we either put the thing to sleep or keep it part of rspec and forget the whole deprecation thing. Handling it off to someone else to maintain seems silly to me. FWIW, David Scott ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Well, it's not simply a matter of US maintaining it. It's a matter of it being maintained at all in light of the fact that mocha and flexmock exist. Put simply, there never should have been an rspec mock framework. But here we are. In my view, we either put the thing to sleep or keep it part of rspec and forget the whole deprecation thing. Handling it off to someone else to maintain seems silly to me. FWIW, David Ah. I had no idea. Why was it originally created, then? Were you guys not happy with mocha at the time? I find it hard to believe that you were ignorant about it. Plus - are you going to change all of rspec's specs to use flexmock or mocha? Scott ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
Well, it's not simply a matter of US maintaining it. It's a matter of it being maintained at all in light of the fact that mocha and flexmock exist. Put simply, there never should have been an rspec mock framework. But here we are. In my view, we either put the thing to sleep or keep it part of rspec and forget the whole deprecation thing. Handling it off to someone else to maintain seems silly to me. Just to reiterate on my last point: There are some advantages to keeping the framework - namely that we won't have to convert a lot of specs. But there are other advantages, too. New features are easier for us to implement for ourselves. I've already had some ideas for how the mocking framework could become better (i.e. support for anonymous functions). I think if we keep it, we should be looking to implement some of those advantages that the other mocking frameworks don't have. We also have steam, which I don't think mocha and flexmock have (although I could be wrong about this). I just took a look at flexmock - and must say that I don't like the partial mock language, because it is confusing to my brain which distinguishes a stub from a mock. And mocha/stubba has an ugly syntax (In my humble, and inexperienced, opinion). If you did put the thing [rspec's mocking framework] to sleep - which would you covert to - Mocha, or Flexmock? Scott ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
I understand where you're coming from Tom. But it's currently two script/plugin installs to start using RSpec with Rails, making it be three (the current two plus a mocking framework) is presumably not going to change adoption or the hurdle of using RSpec by much. I currently use Mocha because I can use it both with Test::Unit and RSpec. I have a big legacy of Test::Unit tests and I want to be able to maintain those and use mocking there, with the same syntax as in RSpec. That's why I don't use the built in mocking in RSpec. Peter On Sep 1, 2007, at 11:04 AM, Tom Stuart wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 09:31, rupert wrote: Are we planning on dumping the mock framework in favor of using Mocha The idea has been banded around on the dev list recently This makes me sad, because it means only one thing for the majority of users: more hassle. So now I have to choose a mocking framework too (an arbitrary choice, thus a gamble), or else configure RSpec to keep working the way it used to work, and watch my mocking code slide into obsolescence? Sigh. I agree that it's a big win for the RSpec developers to not have to deal with the distraction of maintaining a mocking framework, but it's vaguely surprising that nobody's mentioned how valuable it is that RSpec is a tidy, coherent, consistent, integrated BDD tool that just works out of the box right now. (And newcomers still find it impenetrable!) It looks like it's inevitable that it'll be broken up, but, yeah, it's a real shame. Cheers, -Tom ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users Peter Marklund Garvar Lundins Gränd 7 11220 Stockholm Sweden Mobile Phone: +46-(0)70-4164857 Home Phone: +46-(0)8-50091315 Skype: peter_marklund IM: AIM - petermarklund, MSN - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Yahoo - peter_marklund2002 http://marklunds.com ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
El 1/9/2007, a las 11:15, Peter Marklund escribió: I understand where you're coming from Tom. But it's currently two script/plugin installs to start using RSpec with Rails, making it be three (the current two plus a mocking framework) is presumably not going to change adoption or the hurdle of using RSpec by much. I currently use Mocha because I can use it both with Test::Unit and RSpec. I have a big legacy of Test::Unit tests and I want to be able to maintain those and use mocking there, with the same syntax as in RSpec. That's why I don't use the built in mocking in RSpec. Ouch. I used the built-in RSpec mocking because it was the default and I figured that it would be less likely to have compatibility issues in the future (say when Mocha or any of the others made subtle updates outside the control of the RSpec team). I liked the idea of having one integrated package which just worked. I actually thought the trend was in the opposite direction; to include things in RSpec (isn't RBehave part of trunk now?) rather than pare them down. Luckily, however, I don't have too many mocks yet, and the ones which are there aren't that complex. Could probably convert them over to something else in about a day's work. Cheers, Wincent ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
Re: [rspec-users] Deprecating the mocking framework?
After a quick google search: http://www.slideshare.net/viget/mockfight-flexmock-vs-mocha I have no problem using a external mocking framework but its the choosing. convention over configuration. On 9/1/07, rupert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1 Sep 2007, at 18:16, Andrew WC Brown wrote: My question is what would you recommend for Mocking? Mocha or FlexMock? Personally, I've not got a clue as all I've used to date is the rspec mocking framework. I've had a quick look at Mocha and it seems pretty good, but haven't looked into FlexMock at all yet. +1 to anyone who's used both these can comment on the differences! ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users -- Monsterbox Productions putting small businesses on-line 1319 Victoria Avenue East Thunder Bay, Ontario P7C 1C3 Canada Andrew WC Brown web-developer and owner [EMAIL PROTECTED] P: 807-626-9009 F: 807-624-2705 ___ rspec-users mailing list rspec-users@rubyforge.org http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rspec-users
