[sage-devel] Re: Ascii Output

[Andrey Novoseltsev]

It would be nice actually to have it available in Sage and support
classes with _latex_ but no _repr_ - right now it is OK to have the
opposite, i.e. define _repr_ and then it is used wrapped as verbatim
text for _latex_, if no special method is provided. I wrote several
classes recently whose output is a quite elaborate nested array and I
had no desire to figure out a plain text replacement. Not a problem
for me or my student as we just turn on typeset mode, but if someone
wants to use command line only or write comprehensible tests,
automatic text version would be convenient.

Andrey

On Nov 12, 10:34 am, Nils Bruin  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 7:21 am, Andrea Lazzarotto 
> wrote:
>
> > > is there any method which gives me an Ascii output for a
> > > mathematical-express like sqrt(x)?
>
> You can use some of maxima's capabilities for that:
>
> sage: maxima(x^(1/x)).display2d()
>                                       1/x
>                                      x
>
> although maxima prefers "sqrt(x)" over "\/x"
>
> With this approach you're limited to expressions that can be converted
> to maxima and maintain enough of their meaning to be allowed to render
> correctly.
>
> > This one looks nice:http://asciitex.sourceforge.net/
>
> If that just accepts latex input you should be able to do something
> along the lines of
>
> E=latex(sqrt(x))
> os.system("asciiTex '%s'%E)
>
> since sage does try to have methods for pretty much anything to be
> rendered as latex.

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[sage-devel] Re: analytic_rank() discussed on mathoverflow

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2012-11-13, Nils Bruin  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 6:06 pm, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> sage: e.cremona_label()
>> '457532830151317a1'
>> sage: e.analytic_rank(leading_coefficient=True)
>> (4, -2.50337480324368498e-9)
>>
>> here is what I got after some hours of running.
>> e-9 does not look as suspiciosuly small to me...
>
> That depends on what the bounds on the error in that number are. If
> it's
> -2.5e-9 +- 1e-3
> then it can very well be an approximation to 0 (which we know it is).
> It's the accuracy of the approximation that matters--not its size.

looking at the slide 22 of
http://homepages.warwick.ac.uk/~masgaj/papers/bsd50.pdf
seems to tell that we are not talking about a guaranteed computation, 
but just about a heuristic, no more than that. Unless I miss something.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: How to proceed to reduce Sage's memory leaking?

[Michael Welsh]

On 13/11/2012, at 4:16 PM, Nils Bruin  wrote:
> 
> Incidentally: Are PPC-OSX4 (or where-ever the problem earlier arose)
> and i686 both 32 bit platforms?

Yes.

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[sage-devel] Re: How to proceed to reduce Sage's memory leaking?

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 1:47 pm, Jeroen Demeyer  wrote:
> And for added fun: this time the error isn't always reproducible.

That's excellent news! Just keep trying until it's not reproducible
anymore. Then we're fine!

Seriously though, given that the bug pops up in the same file as
before indicates that probably the deletion of a similar kind of
object is to blame here. We just need to keep trying until we find a
way to consistently produce the error on a platform with reasonable
debugging tools.

Incidentally: Are PPC-OSX4 (or where-ever the problem earlier arose)
and i686 both 32 bit platforms? My bet is singular, since we know
refcounting there (or at least our interfacing with it) is handled
fishily and a previous issue indicated that omalloc is almost taylor-
made to generate different problems on different wordlengths.

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[sage-devel] Re: analytic_rank() discussed on mathoverflow

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 6:06 pm, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> sage: e.cremona_label()
> '457532830151317a1'
> sage: e.analytic_rank(leading_coefficient=True)
> (4, -2.50337480324368498e-9)
>
> here is what I got after some hours of running.
> e-9 does not look as suspiciosuly small to me...

That depends on what the bounds on the error in that number are. If
it's
-2.5e-9 +- 1e-3
then it can very well be an approximation to 0 (which we know it is).
It's the accuracy of the approximation that matters--not its size.

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[sage-devel] Re: analytic_rank() discussed on mathoverflow

[Dima Pasechnik]

On 2012-11-12, Nils Bruin  wrote:
> On Nov 12, 9:46 am, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
>> please have a look (and perhaps reply - I am not an expert on this
>> stuff):
>
> It has to check that a certain analytic function vanishes to 8th order
> at a particular point. That involves proving that all its derivatives
> up to 7th order vanish at the point. It's the *proving* that's hard.
> However, proving that they're not 0 is straightforward: Just
> approximate to sufficient precision.
>
> Thus, if sage gets it wrong and pari and magma get it right then it
> looks like sage gets a precision bound wrong somewhere. One would
> normally expect that a routine like this will err by *overestimating*
> the order of vanishing, since underestimating involves saying "I
> cannot really distinguish this approximated value from zero, but I bet
> it's nonzero".
>
> That, or sage is correct and we're looking at a counterexample of the
> Birch--Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture.
sage: e.cremona_label()
'457532830151317a1'
sage: e.analytic_rank(leading_coefficient=True)
(4, -2.50337480324368498e-9)

here is what I got after some hours of running.
e-9 does not look as suspiciosuly small to me...

and if I try algorithm='rubinstein' I see the following repeating ad
nauseum:

  ***   bug in PARI/GP (Segmentation Fault), please report
  ***   bug in PARI/GP (Segmentation Fault), please report
  ***   bug in PARI/GP (Segmentation Fault), please report


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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[P Purkayastha]

On 11/13/2012 04:48 AM, Nils Bruin wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:07 am, P Purkayastha  wrote:


+inv = self.base_ring()(1)/self.base_ring()(right)


It's probably more efficient to do:

inv = self.base_ring().one()/self.base_ring()(right)

since it completely avoids the coercion framework for constructing 1.



Thanks. I have opened #13704 with this change.

http://trac.sagemath.org/13704

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Re: [sage-devel] Best practices for scientific computing

[Raniere Gaia Silva]

Hi Nicolas,
thanks for the article.

Raniere

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Re: [sage-devel] Ascii Output

[David Roe]

Maxima will use ascii-art to print expressions (
http://www.sagemath.org/doc/reference/sage/interfaces/maxima.html), but it
will just leave sqrt as sqrt.  I don't know a way to get an ascii art
representation for sqrt.
David


On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Andreas Ruscheinski <
andreas.ruschein...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> is there any method to get an ascii out put for an expression?
>
> eg:
> sqrt(x) = \/
>
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>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] How to proceed to reduce Sage's memory leaking?

[Jeroen Demeyer]

Bad news again. During a preliminary test of sage-5.5.beta2, I got again
a segmentation fault in
devel/sage/sage/schemes/elliptic_curves/ell_number_field.py
but this time on a different system (arando: Linux i686) and with a
different set of patches as before. And for added fun: this time the
error isn't always reproducible.

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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 10:07 am, P Purkayastha  wrote:

> +            inv = self.base_ring()(1)/self.base_ring()(right)

It's probably more efficient to do:

inv = self.base_ring().one()/self.base_ring()(right)

since it completely avoids the coercion framework for constructing 1.

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[sage-devel] Re: Debugging Cython code

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 12:33 pm, Nils Bruin  wrote:
> Does this need a "cydb" wrapper around gdb or does gdb have its
> own customization options that allow something along these lines?

I should have googled before I replied:

http://docs.cython.org/src/userguide/debugging.html

It would be great if someone would check and report if and how this
can be used for sage and if it works well.

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[sage-devel] Re: Debugging Cython code

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 12:08 pm, Jason Grout  wrote:
> I think you can also use gdb; it seems I've done it once before, at least.

I have used gdb for stack examination after a segfault. For "C-like"
pieces of Cython it works quite well. For "Python-like" pieces it's
horrible, because python objects are virtually impossible to
investigate with gdb (i.e., C-level). There is the added problem that
gdb will happily give you the source context, but that will refer to
the C that cython produced, not the original ".pyx". That means you
have to deal with mangled identifier names too (which isn't too bad
for C-like cython, which allows an almost 1-1 translation to C).

A thing that would make gdb-debugging of cython immensely more useful
would be if one could set breakpoints in a sensible way. I haven't
used it, but gdb allows setting breakpoints by filename and
linenumber. Those would be ".c" filename and linenumber, though. If we
could somehow have a convenient translation tool from ".pyx" filename
+linenumber to ".c" filename+linenumber, setting breakpoints would be
much more doable. Is this something the cython people have thought
about? Does this need a "cydb" wrapper around gdb or does gdb have its
own customization options that allow something along these lines?

People tend to say that debuggers provide a more efficient
investigation tool than print-and-recompile, but I doubt this is
presently true for cython. Perhaps this can be improved?

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Debugging Cython code

[Robert Bradshaw]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Jason Grout
 wrote:
> On 11/12/12 12:26 PM, Raniere Gaia Silva wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> how is the easy way to debug a Cython code?
>
>
> I insert print statements, think really hard, insert more print statements,
> etc.

This is what I typically do.

> I think you can also use gdb; it seems I've done it once before, at least.

See http://wiki.cython.org/DebuggingTechniques and
http://docs.cython.org/src/userguide/debugging.html too.

- Robert

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[sage-devel] Re: Debugging Cython code

[Jason Grout]

On 11/12/12 12:26 PM, Raniere Gaia Silva wrote:

Hi,
how is the easy way to debug a Cython code?


I insert print statements, think really hard, insert more print 
statements, etc.


I think you can also use gdb; it seems I've done it once before, at least.

Thanks,

Jason


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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[Ben Hutz]

That seems like it fixes the symptoms, but I'm not sure if it is the source 
of the problem. For example, the following already works without the fix.

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ) 
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R) 
sage: x/S(2) 
1/2*x 

That being said, I wasn't able to come up with an example that breaks with 
your change. So with a change this innocuous, I'll review it as a fix of 
this particular problem.

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[sage-devel] Debugging Cython code

[Raniere Gaia Silva]

Hi,
how is the easy way to debug a Cython code?

Thanks,
Raniere

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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[P Purkayastha]

On 11/13/2012 02:07 AM, P Purkayastha wrote:

On 11/13/2012 01:06 AM, Ben Hutz wrote:

The following works

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2)
x/2

The following does not

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2)
Traceback (most recent call last):
...
AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'parent'

Seems to me that if the first one works, then so should the second. I
searched the trac server and couldn't come up with anything on this.

Thanks,
Ben


There is a simple fix for this (I hope).


--- a/sage/rings/polynomial/multi_polynomial_element.py
+++ b/sage/rings/polynomial/multi_polynomial_element.py
@@ -280,7 +280,7 @@
53 bits of precision
"""
if right in self.base_ring():
- inv = 1/self.base_ring()(right)
+ inv = self.base_ring()(1)/self.base_ring()(right)
return inv*self
return self.parent().fraction_field()(self, right, coerce=False)


If it looks right, then I can try and open a ticket.




Oh. by the way, the command works after applying this ppatch:

sage: sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: sage: x/S(2)
1/2*x


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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[P Purkayastha]

On 11/13/2012 01:06 AM, Ben Hutz wrote:

The following works

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2)
x/2

The following does not

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2)
Traceback (most recent call last):
...
AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'parent'

Seems to me that if the first one works, then so should the second. I
searched the trac server and couldn't come up with anything on this.

Thanks,
Ben


There is a simple fix for this (I hope).


--- a/sage/rings/polynomial/multi_polynomial_element.py
+++ b/sage/rings/polynomial/multi_polynomial_element.py
@@ -280,7 +280,7 @@
 53 bits of precision
 """
 if right in self.base_ring():
-inv = 1/self.base_ring()(right)
+inv = self.base_ring()(1)/self.base_ring()(right)
 return inv*self
 return self.parent().fraction_field()(self, right, coerce=False)


If it looks right, then I can try and open a ticket.


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[sage-devel] Re: analytic_rank() discussed on mathoverflow

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 9:46 am, Dima Pasechnik  wrote:
> please have a look (and perhaps reply - I am not an expert on this
> stuff):

It has to check that a certain analytic function vanishes to 8th order
at a particular point. That involves proving that all its derivatives
up to 7th order vanish at the point. It's the *proving* that's hard.
However, proving that they're not 0 is straightforward: Just
approximate to sufficient precision.

Thus, if sage gets it wrong and pari and magma get it right then it
looks like sage gets a precision bound wrong somewhere. One would
normally expect that a routine like this will err by *overestimating*
the order of vanishing, since underestimating involves saying "I
cannot really distinguish this approximated value from zero, but I bet
it's nonzero".

That, or sage is correct and we're looking at a counterexample of the
Birch--Swinnerton-Dyer conjecture.

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[sage-devel] Re: Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[Volker Braun]

This is yet another inconsistency with multivariate vs. univariate 
polynomial rings. They are implemented differently, so its easy to fall 
into these traps. I don't have any better idea than hope that it gets 
ironed out over time...




On Monday, November 12, 2012 12:06:29 PM UTC-5, Ben Hutz wrote:
>
> The following works
>
> sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
> sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
> sage: x/S(2)
> x/2
>
> The following does not
>
> sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
> sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
> sage: x/S(2) 
> Traceback (most recent call last):
> ...
> AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'parent'
>
> Seems to me that if the first one works, then so should the second. I 
> searched the trac server and couldn't come up with anything on this.
>
> Thanks,
>   Ben
>

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[sage-devel] analytic_rank() discussed on mathoverflow

[Dima Pasechnik]

please have a look (and perhaps reply - I am not an expert on this
stuff):

http://mathoverflow.net/questions/112154/what-cases-say-about-the-analytic-rank-of-rank-8-elliptic-curve-457532830151317a


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[sage-devel] Re: Ascii Output

[Nils Bruin]

On Nov 12, 7:21 am, Andrea Lazzarotto 
wrote:
> > is there any method which gives me an Ascii output for a
> > mathematical-express like sqrt(x)?

You can use some of maxima's capabilities for that:

sage: maxima(x^(1/x)).display2d()
  1/x
 x

although maxima prefers "sqrt(x)" over "\/x"

With this approach you're limited to expressions that can be converted
to maxima and maintain enough of their meaning to be allowed to render
correctly.

> This one looks nice:http://asciitex.sourceforge.net/

If that just accepts latex input you should be able to do something
along the lines of

E=latex(sqrt(x))
os.system("asciiTex '%s'%E)

since sage does try to have methods for pretty much anything to be
rendered as latex.

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[sage-devel] Is this a bug in multipoly _div_?

[Ben Hutz]

The following works

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2)
x/2

The following does not

sage: R.=PolynomialRing(QQ)
sage: S.=PolynomialRing(R)
sage: x/S(2) 
Traceback (most recent call last):
...
AttributeError: 'int' object has no attribute 'parent'

Seems to me that if the first one works, then so should the second. I 
searched the trac server and couldn't come up with anything on this.

Thanks,
  Ben

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[sage-devel] Re: Ubuntu 12.10 - 404 Not found

[Jan Groenewald]

Hi

To sage:devel I got feedback that this works, at least superficially.

This is slightly incorrect (running a binary BUILT on 12.04 for RUNTIME USE
on 12.10).
However the gcc and libc version differences between 12.04 and 12.10 are so
small
you may experience no problems at all.

Last time we experienced a problem was the 10.04 binary that failed to run
on 11.04.
This is why I provided the 12.04 buildbot slave. I intend to provide a
12.10 buildbot slave,
was just going to try and build an LXC machine (Linux containers,
virtualisation on top
of one kernel, unlike KVM -- this saves on resources). Since some libraries
like ATLAS
are CPU and/or kernel "sensitive", would it be OK to use containers rather
than full
virtual guests for buildbot slaves?

Regards,
Jan



On 12 November 2012 18:39, victor bonhomme wrote:

> With your command, everything works just fine under ubuntu 12.10 64bits !
>
> Thanks a lot, and keep on your awsome work on sagemath. The server/web
> interface is very smart.
>
> Regards,
> Victor.
>
>
> 2012/11/12 Jan Groenewald 
>
>> Dear Silliwane,
>>
>> The Sage PPA has not yet been updated for 12.10.
>> It currently only has 12.04 support. I hope to work
>> on this soon, but that might mean early next year;
>> I am not sure yet. In the meantime, try this:
>>
>> sudo sed -ie 's/quantal/precise/g'
>> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/aims-sagemath-quantal.list
>>
>> And continue from apt-get update again. Please let me know whether it
>> works (I expect it will).
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12 November 2012 16:34, sulliwane  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I'm trying to install Sage 5.4 on my ubuntu 12.10. I added your sage
>>> PPA, and then "apt-get update"
>>>
>>> But i got this error :
>>>
>>> W: Impossible de récupérer
>>>
>>> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/source/Sources
>>> 404  Not Found
>>>
>>> W: Impossible de récupérer
>>> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/binary-
>>> amd64/Packages
>>>  404  Not Found
>>>
>>> W: Impossible de récupérer
>>>
>>> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/binary-i386/Packages
>>> 404  Not Found
>>>
>>> E: Le téléchargement de quelques fichiers d'index a échoué, ils ont été
>>> ignorés, ou les anciens ont été utilisés à la place.
>>>
>>> It seems specifically related to my ubuntu version...
>>>
>>> Thanks for your support.
>>> --
>>> This message was sent from Launchpad by
>>> sulliwane (https://launchpad.net/~victor-bonhomme)
>>> using the "Contact this team's admins" link on the AIMS team page
>>> (https://launchpad.net/~aims).
>>> For more information see
>>> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>   .~.
>>   /V\ Jan Groenewald
>>  /( )\www.aims.ac.za
>>  ^^-^^
>>
>>
>


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Re: [sage-devel] Re: ** Upgrading 5.3 -> 5.4 broken **

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2012-11-12 17:23, John H Palmieri wrote:
> Isn't it only broken on systems for which SAGE_ROOT/local/lib64 and/or
> SAGE_ROOT/local/lib32 are used?
Indeed. I didn't know that OS X doesn't use these directories.

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[sage-devel] Re: ** Upgrading 5.3 -> 5.4 broken **

[John H Palmieri]

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:48:48 PM UTC-8, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
>
> Upgrading from sage-5.3 to sage-5.4 is broken if you installed GCC in 
> sage-5.3 and you moved the Sage installation tree after building GCC but 
> before upgrading.  This problem will be fixed in sage-5.4.1 (there is a 
> ticket #13689 waiting for review). 
>

Isn't it only broken on systems for which SAGE_ROOT/local/lib64 and/or 
SAGE_ROOT/local/lib32 are used? OS X doesn't seem to create these, so 
upgrading might work on that platform.

-- 
John

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Ubuntu 12.10 - 404 Not found

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 12/11/2012 15:42, Jan Groenewald a écrit :

Dear Silliwane,

The Sage PPA has not yet been updated for 12.10.
It currently only has 12.04 support. I hope to work
on this soon, but that might mean early next year;
I am not sure yet. In the meantime, try this:

sudo sed -ie 's/quantal/precise/g'
/etc/apt/sources.list.d/aims-sagemath-quantal.list

And continue from apt-get update again. Please let me know whether it
works (I expect it will).

Regards,
Jan



Dear all,

*Yes* , it works!

Regards,
t.

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<>

[sage-devel] Re: New iOS app is up

[Jason Grout]

On 11/12/12 9:16 AM, Ivan Andrus wrote:

I could make the Evaluate button always available on the iPad (which is where 
you use it right?).


Yes, I'm using it on the iPad.

Thanks,

Jason


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[sage-devel] Ascii Output

[Andreas Ruscheinski]

Hello,
is there any method to get an ascii out put for an expression?

eg: 
sqrt(x) = \/

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Re: [sage-devel] New iOS app is up

[Ivan Andrus]

On Nov 12, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Ivan Andrus  wrote:

> On Nov 12, 2012, at 3:57 PM, Jason Grout  wrote:
> 
>> On 11/11/12 5:09 PM, Ivan Andrus wrote:
>>> A substantial rewrite of the iOS app is in the iTunes store [1].  It
>>> uses the new server and supports interacts!  It handles output a
>>> little different (it uses a web page instead of plain text or image)
>>> so it can also handle more than one image as well as text plus image.
>>> The only problem that I know of is that it doesn't shrink the picture
>>> to be able to view it nicely on the iPhone—instead you have to scroll
>>> around.  I'm pretty sure this can be fixed, I just didn't want to
>>> delay the release any longer since I was having some weird issues
>>> getting it working.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, let me know if you experience any problems with it, and as
>>> always I'm interested in feature requests as well.  You can reply
>>> here, to me personally, or open a ticket on bitbucket [2], whichever
>>> you prefer.
>> 
>> This is awesome.  Thanks again Ivan!
>> 
>> As soon as the android app migrates to the new cell server, we'll retire 
>> aleph1.sagemath.org.
>> 
>> Ivan: is there an easy way to reevaluate a computation?  That is 
>> particularly useful for interacts.  If I click on a computation in the list, 
>> it opens up the window for editing and evaluating, but the evaluate button 
>> doesn't seem to appear until I actually edit the computation, so I find 
>> myself adding all sorts of empty lines and things to be able to evaluate a 
>> computation again.
> 
> 
> There isn't currently.  I did find myself editing in order to reevaluate, but 
> I figured that was because of the fact that I was testing things rather than 
> actually using it.  You are right though about interacts.  
> 
> One problem is that there isn't much room on the iPhone to add another 
> button.  I could make the Evaluate button always available on the iPad (which 
> is where you use it right?).  Perhaps if it contains the string "@interact" I 
> could make Evaluate the default when you open it up.  That probably makes 
> sense and should be an easy improvement.

Actually, maybe it makes sense all the time (not just for interacts) because 
you could have used the Share button from the main screen if that's what you 
wanted to do.

-Ivan

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Re: [sage-devel] Ascii Output

[Andrea Lazzarotto]

2012/11/12 Andreas Ruscheinski 

> is there any method which gives me an Ascii output for a
> mathematical-express like sqrt(x)?


This one looks nice:
http://asciitex.sourceforge.net/

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Andrea Lazzarotto]

2012/11/12 Jan Groenewald 

> The 4G limit: http://www.remastersys.com/ubuntu.html see the section
> titled "The 4GB limit explained - not a remastersys limitation".
>

I see. Well, maybe there is another way to workaround the issue. After
you've added the required software on the disc, you could use BleachBit and
remove all language files which are not English or any language you wish to
keep. IIRC this could free some hundreds of MB of data from your Ubuntu
system.

Also removing unneeded LaTeX documentation can help.

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Re: [sage-devel] New iOS app is up

[Ivan Andrus]

On Nov 12, 2012, at 3:57 PM, Jason Grout  wrote:

> On 11/11/12 5:09 PM, Ivan Andrus wrote:
>> A substantial rewrite of the iOS app is in the iTunes store [1].  It
>> uses the new server and supports interacts!  It handles output a
>> little different (it uses a web page instead of plain text or image)
>> so it can also handle more than one image as well as text plus image.
>> The only problem that I know of is that it doesn't shrink the picture
>> to be able to view it nicely on the iPhone—instead you have to scroll
>> around.  I'm pretty sure this can be fixed, I just didn't want to
>> delay the release any longer since I was having some weird issues
>> getting it working.
>> 
>> Anyway, let me know if you experience any problems with it, and as
>> always I'm interested in feature requests as well.  You can reply
>> here, to me personally, or open a ticket on bitbucket [2], whichever
>> you prefer.
> 
> This is awesome.  Thanks again Ivan!
> 
> As soon as the android app migrates to the new cell server, we'll retire 
> aleph1.sagemath.org.
> 
> Ivan: is there an easy way to reevaluate a computation?  That is particularly 
> useful for interacts.  If I click on a computation in the list, it opens up 
> the window for editing and evaluating, but the evaluate button doesn't seem 
> to appear until I actually edit the computation, so I find myself adding all 
> sorts of empty lines and things to be able to evaluate a computation again.


There isn't currently.  I did find myself editing in order to reevaluate, but I 
figured that was because of the fact that I was testing things rather than 
actually using it.  You are right though about interacts.  

One problem is that there isn't much room on the iPhone to add another button.  
I could make the Evaluate button always available on the iPad (which is where 
you use it right?).  Perhaps if it contains the string "@interact" I could make 
Evaluate the default when you open it up.  That probably makes sense and should 
be an easy improvement.

-Ivan

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[sage-devel] Ascii Output

[Andreas Ruscheinski]

Hello,

is there any method which gives me an Ascii output for a 
mathematical-express like sqrt(x)?


\/

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Jan Groenewald]

Hi

I will have a look, definitely, thanks.

The 4G limit: http://www.remastersys.com/ubuntu.html see the section
titled "The 4GB limit explained - not a remastersys limitation".

Regards,

Jan

On 12 November 2012 16:53, Andrea Lazzarotto wrote:

> 2012/11/12 Jan Groenewald 
>
>> Do you know much of it? Does it allow
>> 1) to surpass a 4G limit?
>>
>
> Do you mean the size of the ISO? I think yes. The distro I made as a
> project for my high school graduation stays under 4 GB so I can't confirm
> it, but you can check it to see a lot of customizations including software,
> themes, the "default home contents" for new users and so on.
> http://www.itislinux.it/
>
>
>> 2) to do a standard install from the ISO, including creating users, it
>> simply adds extra packages transparent to the user?
>>
>
> Do you mean "pre" creating users or creating a single user following the
> standard installation procedure of Ubuntu? For the former, I think yes but
> haven't tried, for the latter I can assure you the installation is the
> standard Ubuntu way, so you can set up the first user account with the name
> that you want.
>
> You can pre-install any software package (or system file for that matter)
> and the DVD will contain it, so when you install the system you have what
> you need.
>
>
>> 3) allow adding of new sources.list.d files to the install target easily?
>>
>
> Absolutely yes. Apart from allowing you to chroot and then simply use
> "sudo add-apt-repository" you can also manually copy a file in that
> directory.
>
> If you need information about UCK feel free to contact me.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> --
> *Andrea Lazzarotto* - http://andrealazzarotto.com*
> *
>
> --
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>
>



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 ^^-^^

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[sage-devel] Re: New iOS app is up

[Jason Grout]

On 11/11/12 5:09 PM, Ivan Andrus wrote:

A substantial rewrite of the iOS app is in the iTunes store [1].  It
uses the new server and supports interacts!  It handles output a
little different (it uses a web page instead of plain text or image)
so it can also handle more than one image as well as text plus image.
The only problem that I know of is that it doesn't shrink the picture
to be able to view it nicely on the iPhone—instead you have to scroll
around.  I'm pretty sure this can be fixed, I just didn't want to
delay the release any longer since I was having some weird issues
getting it working.

Anyway, let me know if you experience any problems with it, and as
always I'm interested in feature requests as well.  You can reply
here, to me personally, or open a ticket on bitbucket [2], whichever
you prefer.


This is awesome.  Thanks again Ivan!

As soon as the android app migrates to the new cell server, we'll retire 
aleph1.sagemath.org.


Ivan: is there an easy way to reevaluate a computation?  That is 
particularly useful for interacts.  If I click on a computation in the 
list, it opens up the window for editing and evaluating, but the 
evaluate button doesn't seem to appear until I actually edit the 
computation, so I find myself adding all sorts of empty lines and things 
to be able to evaluate a computation again.


Thanks,

Jason

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Andrea Lazzarotto]

2012/11/12 Jan Groenewald 

> Do you know much of it? Does it allow
> 1) to surpass a 4G limit?
>

Do you mean the size of the ISO? I think yes. The distro I made as a
project for my high school graduation stays under 4 GB so I can't confirm
it, but you can check it to see a lot of customizations including software,
themes, the "default home contents" for new users and so on.
http://www.itislinux.it/


> 2) to do a standard install from the ISO, including creating users, it
> simply adds extra packages transparent to the user?
>

Do you mean "pre" creating users or creating a single user following the
standard installation procedure of Ubuntu? For the former, I think yes but
haven't tried, for the latter I can assure you the installation is the
standard Ubuntu way, so you can set up the first user account with the name
that you want.

You can pre-install any software package (or system file for that matter)
and the DVD will contain it, so when you install the system you have what
you need.


> 3) allow adding of new sources.list.d files to the install target easily?
>

Absolutely yes. Apart from allowing you to chroot and then simply use "sudo
add-apt-repository" you can also manually copy a file in that directory.

If you need information about UCK feel free to contact me.

Best regards,

-- 
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*

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Jan Groenewald]

Hi

Yes. The reason is I have not started looking closely enough to know about
UCK.

Reference: http://sourceforge.net/projects/uck/

Do you know much of it? Does it allow
1) to surpass a 4G limit?
2) to do a standard install from the ISO, including creating users, it
simply adds extra packages transparent to the user?
3) allow adding of new sources.list.d files to the install target easily?

Regards,
Jan


On 12 November 2012 16:33, Andrea Lazzarotto wrote:

>
>
> 2012/11/12 Nicolas M. Thiery 
>
>> That's a question for Jan Groenewald :-)
>
>
> Yes I'm sorry, I didn't look at the conversation list very well!
>
>
> --
> *Andrea Lazzarotto* - http://andrealazzarotto.com*
> *
>
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>
>



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 /( )\www.aims.ac.za
 ^^-^^

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[sage-devel] Re: Ubuntu 12.10 - 404 Not found

[Jan Groenewald]

Dear Silliwane,

The Sage PPA has not yet been updated for 12.10.
It currently only has 12.04 support. I hope to work
on this soon, but that might mean early next year;
I am not sure yet. In the meantime, try this:

sudo sed -ie 's/quantal/precise/g'
/etc/apt/sources.list.d/aims-sagemath-quantal.list

And continue from apt-get update again. Please let me know whether it works
(I expect it will).

Regards,
Jan






On 12 November 2012 16:34, sulliwane  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm trying to install Sage 5.4 on my ubuntu 12.10. I added your sage
> PPA, and then "apt-get update"
>
> But i got this error :
>
> W: Impossible de récupérer
>
> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/source/Sources
> 404  Not Found
>
> W: Impossible de récupérer
> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/binary-
> amd64/Packages  404  Not Found
>
> W: Impossible de récupérer
>
> http://ppa.launchpad.net/aims/sagemath/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/binary-i386/Packages
> 404  Not Found
>
> E: Le téléchargement de quelques fichiers d'index a échoué, ils ont été
> ignorés, ou les anciens ont été utilisés à la place.
>
> It seems specifically related to my ubuntu version...
>
> Thanks for your support.
> --
> This message was sent from Launchpad by
> sulliwane (https://launchpad.net/~victor-bonhomme)
> using the "Contact this team's admins" link on the AIMS team page
> (https://launchpad.net/~aims).
> For more information see
> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/ContactingPeople
>



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 /( )\www.aims.ac.za
 ^^-^^

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Andrea Lazzarotto]

2012/11/12 Nicolas M. Thiery 

> That's a question for Jan Groenewald :-)


Yes I'm sorry, I didn't look at the conversation list very well!

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 02:10:37PM +0100, Andrea Lazzarotto wrote:
>  > I also hit the problem that Macs don't boot from USB, which IMHO is
>  > completely retarded, but that's just life.
> 
>One could simply burn a PLOP boot manager CD and then use it to
>boot from USB. The only exception to this would be the Macbook
>Air without an external SuperDrive.

Thanks for the pointer!

>BTW Nicolas is there a specific reason you're planning to use the "hackish
>and dirty" Remastersys instead of a pure Ubuntu editing tool like UCK?
>Results are usually better with it and it's quite easy to customize the
>system in every aspect before creating an ISO.

That's a question for Jan Groenewald :-)

Cheers,
Nicolas
--
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http://Nicolas.Thiery.name/

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Changing the default behaviour of Poset

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 02:22:59PM +0100, Marco Streng wrote:
>2012/11/12 Nicolas M. Thiery 
> 
>  First thing: for those who want to know more on what a facade is:
> 
>  sage: S = Sets()
>  sage: S.Facade?
> 
>Object `S.Facade` not found.
>It should be:
>sage: S.Facades?

Oops, right; I should have checked with a stock Sage :-)

Cheers,
Nicolas
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[sage-devel] Re: New iOS app is up

[Jason Grout]

On 11/11/12 5:09 PM, Ivan Andrus wrote:

A substantial rewrite of the iOS app is in the iTunes store [1].  It uses the 
new server and supports interacts!  It handles output a little different (it 
uses a web page instead of plain text or image) so it can also handle more than 
one image as well as text plus image.  The only problem that I know of is that 
it doesn't shrink the picture to be able to view it nicely on the 
iPhone—instead you have to scroll around.  I'm pretty sure this can be fixed, I 
just didn't want to delay the release any longer since I was having some weird 
issues getting it working.

Anyway, let me know if you experience any problems with it, and as always I'm 
interested in feature requests as well.  You can reply here, to me personally, 
or open a ticket on bitbucket [2], whichever you prefer.


If someone has a slashdot account, here would be a good place to 
advertise the iOS app:


http://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/11/11/1819236/color-screen-ti-84-plus-calculator-leaked

Thanks Ivan!

Jason



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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Changing the default behaviour of Poset

[Marco Streng]

2012/11/12 Nicolas M. Thiery 

>
>
> First thing: for those who want to know more on what a facade is:
>
> sage: S = Sets()
> sage: S.Facade?
>
>

Object `S.Facade` not found.

It should be:
sage: S.Facades?

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Andrea Lazzarotto]

I don't understand where this quote came from because this is being
cross-posted ( =.= ) through mailing lists, and I don't follow all of them,
but...

2012/11/12 Nicolas M. Thiery 

> > I also hit the problem that Macs don't boot from USB, which IMHO is
> > completely retarded, but that's just life.
>
>
One could simply burn a PLOP boot manager CD and then use it to boot from
USB. The only exception to this would be the Macbook Air without an
external SuperDrive.


BTW Nicolas is there a specific reason you're planning to use the "hackish
and dirty" Remastersys instead of a pure Ubuntu editing tool like UCK?
Results are usually better with it and it's quite easy to customize the
system in every aspect before creating an ISO.

Best regards,

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*

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Changing the default behaviour of Poset

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 05:03:58AM +, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> On 2012-11-11, Nathann Cohen  wrote:
> > I spent many hours fighting with Posets under Sage. I enjoyed it a lot, but
> > I can already tell that it gets on Florent's and Nicolas' nerves, and so I
> > was thinking of whether I should put an end to it. For their sake.
> >
> > Here's the problem. With comments.
> >
> > ---
> > Building the poset from a DiGraph defined on integers :
> > sage: g = DiGraph([(1,2),(1,3),(2,4),(3,4)])
> > sage: p = Poset(g)
> >
> > Is 3 in the poset ?
> >
> > sage: 3 in p
> > True
> >
> > Of course it is !
> >
> > sage: list(p)
> > [1, 2, 3, 4]
> > sage: 3 in list(p)
> > False
> >
> > Not it is not ! So what the hell is this list [1,2,3,4] that we get as a
> > result to list(p) ?
> >
> > sage: map(type,list(p))
> > [ > 'sage.combinat.posets.elements.FinitePoset_with_category.element_class'>,
> > ...
> > 'sage.combinat.posets.elements.FinitePoset_with_category.element_class'>]
> >
> > O_O;;;
> >
> > sage: p.cover_relations()
> > [[1, 2], [1, 3], [2, 4], [3, 4]]
> > sage: [1,3] in p.cover_relations()
> > False
> > sage: (1,3) in p.cover_relations()
> > False
> >
> > And of course :
> >
> > sage: p.hasse_diagraph() == g
> > False
> > 
> >
> > WELL. I personally consider that this behaviour is totally crazy, and I
> > often say so (very loud, and very frequently. Just come eat with us anyday
> > at lunch and I will probably complain about that, or about LaTeX). This
> > being said, I also heard that it may possibly make sense in a very sick
> > logic, and that the correction of some code may actually depend on that.
> >
> > I personally think that having this as the default behaviour of Poset is
> > *madness*. I personally *ONLY* use Posets with he flag "facade = True" when
> > I do not forget it, and lose half an hour when I do forget it. What would
> > you think of making it the default behaviour of Poset ? This way, normal
> > people could use a Poset without having to know what a facade is. Without
> > having to hear about parents, elements, the .value() method and all.
> > I mean. Why the hell should this stay the default behaviour ?
> 
> I agree that this looks very odd. A poset is a pair (set, binary
> relation), and one would fully expect that list() will produce
> the list of the elements in the set ordered in a way preserving
> the partial order...

First thing: for those who want to know more on what a facade is:

sage: S = Sets()
sage: S.Facade?

Now, just to put this in perspective. I think many people would find
the following madness if the end result was 3 and not 0:

sage: G = IntegerModRing(3)
sage: G.list()
[0, 1, 2]
sage: a,b,c=G.list()
sage: b+c
0

In the above use case, you want the element of G, as returned by G, to
be aware that they live in G, so that arithmetic get done
accordingly. Similarly, for posets, there are use cases where one
wants a Actually, I tried googling poset+facade, and all the maths hits are
> Sage, with an exception of a dissertation on posets, where the only
> place the word "facade" is used is the following quote:
>
>   It turns out that an eerie type of chaos
>   can lurk just behind a facade of order
>   and yet, deep inside the chaos
>   lurks an even eerier type of order.
>   D. Hofstadter
> 
> Thus indeed, we should not show "an eerie type of chaos",
> unless a user expicitly asks for it...

:-)

Cheers,
Nicolas
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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

Hi Jan,

Thanks for all the information and all your work making Sage easier to
install! On the next similar occasion, we should also investigate
aims-desktop, either through DVD installs or by running a local Ubuntu
+ PPA mirror. There still is the problem that installing a dual boot
requires some resources (disk space) and can take some time to be done
in a safe way (when the notion of backup is weak). One fine point as
well, for the many older laptops, is to run Ubuntu with a light window
manager.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 07:22:12AM +0200, Jan Groenewald wrote:
>In the meantime speak to me about hosting sage days at
>an AIMS centre, where you will arrive with Sage already
>installed on all computers, and the most reliable internet
>you can find in an African university.
> 
>If someone knows where to get the funding, I would look
>forward to a July 2014 Sage days in Cape Town.

Hmm, I don't have ideas on the top of my head for funding, but this
sounds attracting :-)

Cheers,
Nicolas
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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 10:31:47AM +0100, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> The pre-compiled binaries *should* work on old processors. If not,
> that's a bug which should be reported.

Ah, good to know!

I don't remember myself if we had issues with the processors
themselves, or only with distro-related issues (like glibc version).

Thierry?

> Supporting more distros is possible if and only if somebody
> contributes a buildbot slave machine for building the binaries.

Ok.

Note that, in the discussion at hand, it would be more about testing
generic binaries rather than building distro-specific binaries.

Thierry: in case the *working on old processors* is confirmed, what
about running a virtual machine with your minimal Debian as buildbot
on the sage-combinat server?

Cheers,
Nicolas
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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 10:28:02AM +0100, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> On 2012-11-11 10:00, Nicolas M. Thiery wrote:
> > (a) failed most of the time on Linux by lack of gfortran.
> Since sage-5.4, gfortran is no longer a requirement (see #13515), so
> this will become easier in the future.

Great! One problem crossed out of the list. Kuddos to those who worked
on #13515!

Nicolas
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[sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

Hi Andrey,

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 08:37:50PM -0800, Andrey Novoseltsev wrote:
> Thanks a lot for such a detailed report!

:-)

> Is it possible to have step-by-step instructions for
> self-replicating USB sticks posted somewhere?

Thierry Monteil, who worked hard on that key and should get all the
credits for it, is in CC. He is planning to advertise it shortly.

> I think these may be a great way to use Sage even in developed
> countries. Last summer I used USB sticks for our summer school, with a
> hope that students may use them in the lab (I got our IT guys to open
> USB boot) and then on their own computers. To make sure that results
> are preserved between sessions, I've installed Linux on a USB
> partition together with Sage and LaTeX, tinkered with GRUB to mount
> only the stick by label rather than UUID, and then used Clonezilla for
> duplication (which fortunately support 1-to-many image restoration and
> I had a computer with 8 ports available). 

Thanks for reporting the use-case!

> I also hit the problem that Macs don't boot from USB, which IMHO is
> completely retarded, but that's just life.

Yeah. Besides, installing on Mac is not so much of an issue.

> It also seems to me that memory consumption is the main bottleneck
> of running Sage servers - when users are playing with basic
> calculus/ linear algebra, there isn't much demand on CPU, but every
> open worksheet or interact worker consumes quite a bit of virtual
> and resident memory. I hope to run a class with ~2k students next
> year and it is conceivable that most of them will do something a few
> hours before the homework deadline. We'll see how it goes (if it
> goes at all, of course).

Wow, 2k? That's quite a few!
Nicolas
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[sage-devel] Re: Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Nicolas M. Thiery]

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 08:07:06PM -0800, Mike Zabrocki wrote:
>Wow! Nicolas fantastic report.  That was a challenge to do.

Thanks :-)

> I hope you managed a convert or two in Africa. My experience with
> computer classes as part of a summer school (in Ghana, Kenya,
> Tanzania and Madagascar) is similar except I never had a wifi
> network and most of my students didn't have regular computer access.
> Most of my students were complete novices to the computer, but
> willing to learn.  Installing sage was several steps beyond what we
> tried.  I would say that most of the infrastructure that we had
> access to would not support sage (most computers were dated
> pre-python, though I did not have the expertise to make this work).

I could hope for 4-5 that will use Sage in the long run, and 20 that
definitely see the point but will get stuck by lack of infrastructure
and expertise.

But as you said: «if our problem was only network, we were in pretty
good shape to start with». We had a selection of students that were
definitely computer-literate (somehow, the main difficulty was to
prevent them from running to facebook&all and eat up all the bandwidth
whenever the network was working :-) ), even though most did not have
programming experience.

>I think to break the barrier and make a true sage days really
>productive, I think that you would need to partner with some
>organization like OLPC (one laptop per child) or arrange to
>minimize the problems with your hardware.

Well, I have a good contact for that: dad :-) We actually already used
Sage on our home OLPC, although only through a remote Sage server. I
doubt the old models can support running Sage locally, but for the
upcoming models we certainly will have a shot (at least running in a
terminal).

Of course, the real thing would be to integrate a resource-optimized
version of Sage within the Sugar activities. This probably won't be a
priority for OLPC, since their main target population is children of
age 6-12, but as you say we could explore other organizations as well.

Cheers,
Nicolas
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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2012-11-11 10:00, Nicolas M. Thiery wrote:
> - Precompiled binary for Linux: besides the usual distro-specific
>   binaries, it would be very helpful to have two (32bit / 64bit) fat
>   Sage binaries that would work without dependencies on as many
>   distros and processors as possible.
The pre-compiled binaries *should* work on old processors. If not,
that's a bug which should be reported. Supporting more distros is
possible if and only if somebody contributes a buildbot slave machine
for building the binaries.

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Re: [sage-devel] Sage Days in Bobo-Dioulasso debriefing; Sage in developping countries

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2012-11-11 10:00, Nicolas M. Thiery wrote:
> (a) failed most of the time on Linux by lack of gfortran.
Since sage-5.4, gfortran is no longer a requirement (see #13515), so
this will become easier in the future.

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Re: [sage-devel] Two sage-location related tickets need review

[Jeroen Demeyer]

These two tickets still need review:

On 2012-09-16 20:54, Jeroen Demeyer wrote:
> #13452: Refactor sage-location
> Some various clean-up of sage-location, in particular:
>1. Don't use realpath() or abspath() everywhere. Just once should be
> more than sufficient.
>2. Merge initialize_pkgconfig_files() and update_pkgconfig_files().
>3. Improve the logic, i.e. install_moved() should not write the
> processor flags.
>4. Improve structure by creating a new top-level function
> sage_relocate() which then calls the other functions.
>5. Better documentation.
> 
> 
> #13407: Move sage-make_relative to sage-location
> There is a rare race condition associated to sage-make_relative: when a
> file is open for writing, it cannot be executed (you get a "Text file
> busy" error). Since the sage-make_relative Python script opens all files
> in $SAGE_LOCAL/bin for writing, it can happen that a Sage build fails.
> The best solution is to move sage-make_relative to sage-location: the
> latter script is intented precisely to fix relocation issues. It would
> also be faster, as currently every file in $SAGE_LOCAL/bin is checked
> after every package is installed.
> 
> 
> Both these tickets are prerequisites for #5155 (Fix doctests that want
> write access to $SAGE_ROOT).  I think it would be good to finally fix
> this issue, such that Sage works 100% (not 99%) for other users (not the
> one who installed Sage).  I would like a push to get this into sage-5.4.
> 
> So please review:
> http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13452
> http://trac.sagemath.org/sage_trac/ticket/13407

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