Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Jeroen Demeyer]

On 2017-12-04 23:52, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

I will open a trac ticket changing Math* to Wiskunde.


Great idea!

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[kcrisman]

> Mind you, some components of Sage have versions of the same command in two 
> different English spellings, e.g. GAP has Center() and Centre().
>
> I propose switching to a language with a consistent meaningful spelling, 
> not all that impossible to understand arbitrary multiple choices. I will 
> open a trac ticket changing Math* to Wiskunde. At least there is no 
> potato-in-your-mouth phoneme there!
>
>
>
Hey, just because nobody ELSE can pronounce theta doesn't mean 
English/Icelandic/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_dental_fricative#Occurrence
 
shouldn't get them ;-)  Just try ordering a beer in Madrid without it! 

As to the serious comment DC makes about technical writing, while this is 
true, SageMath has always faced (shall we say) a lack of volunteer 
willingness for such things in comparison to bug fixes etc., similarly to 
many open source projects.  I would recommend the practical step of 
submitting a pull request to the website github site I referenced earlier 
with that very small change (my option 2) and see if Harald accepts it - I 
don't really see why not, as it's so isolated.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Jori Mäntysalo]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017, Dima Pasechnik wrote:

Mind you, some components of Sage have versions of the same command in 
two different English spellings, e.g. GAP has Center() and Centre().


But the Sage source code itseself contains only one "centre", in 
documentation of src/sage/groups/perm_gps/permgroup_named.py.


I would like to see only one spelling, i.e. no color and colour etc, but 
that has been discussed earlier without ending to a common view.


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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Dima Pasechnik]

Mind you, some components of Sage have versions of the same command in two 
different English spellings, e.g. GAP has Center() and Centre().

I propose switching to a language with a consistent meaningful spelling, not 
all that impossible to understand arbitrary multiple choices. I will open a 
trac ticket changing Math* to Wiskunde. At least there is no 
potato-in-your-mouth phoneme there!


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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[DC]

Despite my attempt to bring the discussion into the realm of objectivity, 
it is apparent that personal preference has won.

>>>On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 7:37:57 PM UTC-8, John H Palmieri wrote:
>
> I think it is much more important to fix bugs and to add new functionality 
> to Sage.
>

There is no reason that bug fixes and terminology fixes cannot coexist. 
>From a technical writing standpoint, they are not mutually exclusive.

 

> >>>
> Regarding consistency:
> "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" -- Ralph Waldo 
> Emerson
> "Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely 
> consistent people are the dead." – Huxley.
> 'Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative': O. Wilde
>

Creativity is a good thing, but SageMath is not a novel. In the technical 
world it is better if a rocket launch always results in the consistency of 
a successful landing.
 

>>>
> Regarding your first sentence: do you really think that clarity is somehow 
> sacrificed by using "maths" instead of "math"? I am very dubious.
>

I was not claiming anything about sacrifice, just objective consistency.
If you begin fixing your car with a spanner, you end with a spanner, not a 
wrench.

 

> >>>
> Finally, there is virtue in recognizing that Sage is supported by a 
> world-wide network of contributors, and people speak different languages 
> around the world (BTW: we welcome translations of Sage documentation to 
> more languages!). Even among those of us that speak English, there are 
> variations in how we speak it. Recognizing and supporting this is valuable, 
> just as is encouraging all other types of diversity in Sage, in 
> mathematics, in life.
>

Excellent :)

 

>
>
> On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 4:46:35 PM UTC-8, DC wrote:
>>
>> For the sake of clarity, definite points can be made to unequivocally 
>> illustrate the need to take the very simple step and *be* *consistent*, 
>> by combing over this system and using the term "MATH" :
>>
>> Using the full word "mathematics" is a noble suggestion, and even 
>> acceptable to a point, however communicative human nature yearns for 
>> abbreviation (as seen clearly in many programming languages), so more than 
>> likely the proper abbreviation needs to be chosen. Objective consistency is 
>> the goal, not personal preference.
>>
>> Perhaps the absolute indication that the site needs to be revised to use 
>> the term "math" is the very premise and name of the product, SageMath. 
>> Either the term should remain consistent, or the name of the product must 
>> be changed to SageMaths.
>>
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Andrew]

On Wednesday, 29 November 2017 10:18:54 UTC+1, John Cremona wrote:
>
> Please can we just use "mathematics" and not argue about abbreviations? 
>
> +1

As an Australian,"math" sounds as wrong to me as I imagine that "maths" 
does to north Americans.

Andrew

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[John H Palmieri]

I think it is much more important to fix bugs and to add new functionality 
to Sage.

Regarding consistency:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" -- Ralph Waldo 
Emerson
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely 
consistent people are the dead." – Huxley.
'Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative': O. Wilde

Regarding your first sentence: do you really think that clarity is somehow 
sacrificed by using "maths" instead of "math"? I am very dubious.

Finally, there is virtue in recognizing that Sage is supported by a 
world-wide network of contributors, and people speak different languages 
around the world (BTW: we welcome translations of Sage documentation to 
more languages!). Even among those of us that speak English, there are 
variations in how we speak it. Recognizing and supporting this is valuable, 
just as is encouraging all other types of diversity in Sage, in 
mathematics, in life.


On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 4:46:35 PM UTC-8, DC wrote:
>
> For the sake of clarity, definite points can be made to unequivocally 
> illustrate the need to take the very simple step and *be* *consistent*, 
> by combing over this system and using the term "MATH" :
>
> Using the full word "mathematics" is a noble suggestion, and even 
> acceptable to a point, however communicative human nature yearns for 
> abbreviation (as seen clearly in many programming languages), so more than 
> likely the proper abbreviation needs to be chosen. Objective consistency is 
> the goal, not personal preference.
>
> Perhaps the absolute indication that the site needs to be revised to use 
> the term "math" is the very premise and name of the product, SageMath. 
> Either the term should remain consistent, or the name of the product must 
> be changed to SageMaths.
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[dave]

For the sake of clarity, definite points can be made to unequivocally 
illustrate the need to take the very simple step and *be* *consistent*, by 
combing over this system and using the term "MATH" :

Using the full word "mathematics" is a noble suggestion, and even 
acceptable to a point, however communicative human nature yearns for 
abbreviation (as seen clearly in many programming languages), so more than 
likely the proper abbreviation needs to be chosen. Objective consistency is 
the goal, not personal preference.

Perhaps the absolute indication that the site needs to be revised to use 
the term "math" is the very premise and name of the product, SageMath. 
Either the term should remain consistent, or the name of the product must 
be changed to SageMaths.

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[John H Palmieri]

On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 6:43:05 AM UTC-8, kcrisman wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 6:50:09 PM UTC-5, Matthew Schroeder 
> wrote:
>>
>> Dear John,
>>
>> Thank you for your interest in resolving this problem.  
>>
>> To answer your question I am referring to  
>> http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html.  I was reading this to get 
>> an idea of what SAGE can do, when I hit this road block :)
>>
>> "Sort of supports" my point?  I tracked down a video of an interview with 
>> a professor of Linguistics, within which she addresses this very issue.  
>> During these dark times in America (and the world) 
>> in which the expert is increasingly marginalized, I am surprised to see 
>> Dr. Murphy's comments so readily dismissed here in an academic forum.
>> Please visit her home page  at 
>> the University
>> of Sussex.  On her homepage you will see that Dr Murphy's areas of 
>> expertise include "American English" and "British English".  In watching 
>> the video, I was struck by the rich and long history of this problem. 
>> I was hoping that by presenting this information, others would have the 
>> intellectual honesty to move past their individual preferences and just 
>> consider the facts.  Doing this seems the only way that mistakes  like 
>> "Maths"
>> will ever be corrected.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if this is parody or not; I'll assume not.  Suffice to say 
> that despite the very sound linguistic analysis of the *origin* of "maths" 
> (I wish the "pea(s)" example were better known), note her key argument in 
> the original blog post:
>
> "there's absolutely no reason why maths should be considered to be more 
> correct than math." 
>
> That is NOT the same as "math should be considered more correct than 
> maths"; I would suspect that most descriptive linguists (which is most 
> academic linguists now?) would not go that far.Even the author says, 
> "Myself, 
> I do tend to say maths in BrE company, but only because it's so painful 
> not to." (and she's American).  I.e., in British English, apparently this 
> has within a century become the nearly-universal accepted rendition.
>
> So the resolution is either
> 1) Do nothing because both are common practice in the standard version of 
> American/received British dialects, and because it's not really that 
> important given that SageMath users come from all over the world - even 
> those who are native English speakers
> 2) Change "maths" to "math" in that isolated instance because the roots of 
> SageMath are in American English vernacular, as evidenced by the fact this 
> entire forum is in English, for consistency's sake
>

(1) makes sense to me, or if we have to make a change, change it to 
"mathematics", as John Cremona said.


> > Anyway, what "quick start" are you talking about? The phrase "symbolic 
> maths" does not appear anywhere in the Sage source code, nor does 
> "numerical maths".
>
> John, he is referring to http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html 
> which is indeed not part of the Sage source code.  See 
> https://github.com/sagemath/website/commits/master/src/tour-quickstart.html 
> for the source of this - apparently someone long, long ago wrote this in 
> the original website.
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[kcrisman]

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 6:50:09 PM UTC-5, Matthew Schroeder wrote:
>
> Dear John,
>
> Thank you for your interest in resolving this problem.  
>
> To answer your question I am referring to  
> http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html.  I was reading this to get 
> an idea of what SAGE can do, when I hit this road block :)
>
> "Sort of supports" my point?  I tracked down a video of an interview with 
> a professor of Linguistics, within which she addresses this very issue.  
> During these dark times in America (and the world) 
> in which the expert is increasingly marginalized, I am surprised to see 
> Dr. Murphy's comments so readily dismissed here in an academic forum.
> Please visit her home page  at 
> the University
> of Sussex.  On her homepage you will see that Dr Murphy's areas of 
> expertise include "American English" and "British English".  In watching 
> the video, I was struck by the rich and long history of this problem. 
> I was hoping that by presenting this information, others would have the 
> intellectual honesty to move past their individual preferences and just 
> consider the facts.  Doing this seems the only way that mistakes  like 
> "Maths"
> will ever be corrected.
>

I'm not sure if this is parody or not; I'll assume not.  Suffice to say 
that despite the very sound linguistic analysis of the *origin* of "maths" 
(I wish the "pea(s)" example were better known), note her key argument in 
the original blog post:

"there's absolutely no reason why maths should be considered to be more 
correct than math." 

That is NOT the same as "math should be considered more correct than 
maths"; I would suspect that most descriptive linguists (which is most 
academic linguists now?) would not go that far.Even the author says, 
"Myself, 
I do tend to say maths in BrE company, but only because it's so painful not 
to." (and she's American).  I.e., in British English, apparently this has 
within a century become the nearly-universal accepted rendition.

So the resolution is either
1) Do nothing because both are common practice in the standard version of 
American/received British dialects, and because it's not really that 
important given that SageMath users come from all over the world - even 
those who are native English speakers
2) Change "maths" to "math" in that isolated instance because the roots of 
SageMath are in American English vernacular, as evidenced by the fact this 
entire forum is in English, for consistency's sake

> Anyway, what "quick start" are you talking about? The phrase "symbolic 
maths" does not appear anywhere in the Sage source code, nor does 
"numerical maths".

John, he is referring to http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html which 
is indeed not part of the Sage source code. 
 See 
https://github.com/sagemath/website/commits/master/src/tour-quickstart.html 
for the source of this - apparently someone long, long ago wrote this in 
the original website.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[William Stein]

John Cremona:
> Please can we just use "mathematics" and not argue about abbreviations? -- 
> John

+1000



On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Matthew Schroeder
 wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> Thank you for your interest in resolving this problem.
>
> To answer your question I am referring to
> http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html.  I was reading this to get an
> idea of what SAGE can do, when I hit this road block :)
>
> "Sort of supports" my point?  I tracked down a video of an interview with a
> professor of Linguistics, within which she addresses this very issue.
> During these dark times in America (and the world)
> in which the expert is increasingly marginalized, I am surprised to see Dr.
> Murphy's comments so readily dismissed here in an academic forum.Please
> visit her home page at the University
> of Sussex.  On her homepage you will see that Dr Murphy's areas of expertise
> include "American English" and "British English".  In watching the video, I
> was struck by the rich and long history of this problem.
> I was hoping that by presenting this information, others would have the
> intellectual honesty to move past their individual preferences and just
> consider the facts.  Doing this seems the only way that mistakes  like
> "Maths"
> will ever be corrected.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-8, Matthew Schroeder wrote:
>>
>> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic Maths"
>> and "Numerical Maths"
>>
>> It is MATH not MATHS.
>
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-- 
William (http://wstein.org)

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Matthew Schroeder]

Dear John,

Thank you for your interest in resolving this problem.  

To answer your question I am referring to  
http://www.sagemath.org/tour-quickstart.html.  I was reading this to get an 
idea of what SAGE can do, when I hit this road block :)

"Sort of supports" my point?  I tracked down a video of an interview with a 
professor of Linguistics, within which she addresses this very issue.  
During these dark times in America (and the world) 
in which the expert is increasingly marginalized, I am surprised to see Dr. 
Murphy's comments so readily dismissed here in an academic forum.Please 
visit her home page  at the 
University
of Sussex.  On her homepage you will see that Dr Murphy's areas of 
expertise include "American English" and "British English".  In watching 
the video, I was struck by the rich and long history of this problem. 
I was hoping that by presenting this information, others would have the 
intellectual honesty to move past their individual preferences and just 
consider the facts.  Doing this seems the only way that mistakes  like 
"Maths"
will ever be corrected.



On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-8, Matthew Schroeder wrote:
>
> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic *Maths*"  
> and "Numerical *Maths*"
>
> It is MATH not MATHS.  
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[John H Palmieri]

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 12:22:05 PM UTC-8, Matthew Schroeder 
wrote:
>
> i did some research.  Please see the link:  Saying "Maths" is wrong 
> 
>

Turns out this is a problem that should be fixed.
>


I assume you're joking. With this assumption: whoa! You found something on 
the internet, in fact a YouTube video, which sort of supports your point. 
You must be right!
 
Anyway, what "quick start" are you talking about? The phrase "symbolic 
maths" does not appear anywhere in the Sage source code, nor does 
"numerical maths".

 

>
> On a side note:  Did someone who speaks French just accuse people of being 
> lazy for ignoring consonants on the end of words?
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-8, Matthew Schroeder wrote:
>>
>> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic *Maths*"  
>> and "Numerical *Maths*"
>>
>> It is MATH not MATHS.  
>>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Matthew Schroeder]

i did some research.  Please see the link:  Saying "Maths" is wrong 


Turns out this is a problem that should be fixed.

On a side note:  Did someone who speaks French just accuse people of being 
lazy for ignoring consonants on the end of words?


On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-8, Matthew Schroeder wrote:
>
> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic *Maths*"  
> and "Numerical *Maths*"
>
> It is MATH not MATHS.  
>

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 29/11/2017 à 08:40, Emmanuel Charpentier a écrit :
> In French, we name that "les mathématiques"... ISTR that there are
> serious etymological reasons. The US's "math" sounds like carelessness
> (and the french "désinvolture" would be a better designation...).
> 
> --
> Emmanuel Charpentier
> 
When I was a young student, the Church of Bourbaki was omnipotent. It
was a sin to say "les mathématiques" (mathematics).  The First
Commandment was: Thou shalt say "La Mathématique".
t.d.

> Le mercredi 29 novembre 2017 01:03:05 UTC+1, Matthew Schroeder a écrit :
> 
> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic
> *Maths*"  and "Numerical *Maths*"
> 
> It is MATH not MATHS.  
> 
> -- 
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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[kcrisman]

Please can we just use "mathematics" and not argue about abbreviations?
>

Perhaps we should go back to being called geometers! 
 

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[John Cremona]

Please can we just use "mathematics" and not argue about abbreviations?

John

On 29 November 2017 at 07:40, Emmanuel Charpentier
 wrote:
> In French, we name that "les mathématiques"... ISTR that there are serious
> etymological reasons. The US's "math" sounds like carelessness (and the
> french "désinvolture" would be a better designation...).
>
> --
> Emmanuel Charpentier
>
>
> Le mercredi 29 novembre 2017 01:03:05 UTC+1, Matthew Schroeder a écrit :
>>
>> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic Maths"
>> and "Numerical Maths"
>>
>> It is MATH not MATHS.
>
> --
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[sage-devel] Re: Issue with quick start

[Emmanuel Charpentier]

In French, we name that "les mathématiques"... ISTR that there are serious 
etymological reasons. The US's "math" sounds like carelessness (and the 
french "désinvolture" would be a better designation...).

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Emmanuel Charpentier

Le mercredi 29 novembre 2017 01:03:05 UTC+1, Matthew Schroeder a écrit :
>
> In the headings of the quick start it says things like "Symbolic *Maths*"  
> and "Numerical *Maths*"
>
> It is MATH not MATHS.  
>

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