[sage-devel] Re: JSMath Fonts
It will not be as easy as you think to modify jsMath to use @font-face web fonts. First, IE uses EOT fonts, while everyone else uses TTF and OTF fonts (and DON'T handle EOT fonts). Also, EOT fonts are keyed to a particular server, so they would have to be modified every time you want to serve them from a different server. I'm not sure of the implications of this for using them from a local disk (as no server is involved). Second, several browsers load web fonts asynchronously, meaning that they initially show the character in a default font and then change the page after the font is loaded. Because jsMath must measure the size of parts of the mathematics while it is constructing the typeset formula, this approach will not work (the sizes would change after the math has ben typeset). So you would need to work out a method of determining when the font is actually available and wait until after that to start typesetting mathematics. The only ways I can think of to do this are fragile hacks. I have been looking forward to being able to use web fonts with jsMath, but it is not a trivial change, and I'm not sure when I will get to it. Davide On Jul 16, 12:26 pm, Tom Boothby tomas.boot...@gmail.com wrote: At long last, the Mozilla team has heard the voice of reason, and allows the browser to download fonts! This means no more jsmath warning! Next week, I'm going to take a crack at remedying this problem in jsmath itself, and submitting it upstream. Failing that, I'll put it into the notebook code. http://craigmod.com/journal/font-face/ --tom --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: JSMath Fonts
Davide, Thanks for responding! On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 4:07 AM, Davide Cervoned...@union.edu wrote: It will not be as easy as you think to modify jsMath to use @font-face web fonts. First, IE uses EOT fonts, while everyone else uses TTF and OTF fonts (and DON'T handle EOT fonts). Also, EOT fonts are keyed to a particular server, so they would have to be modified every time you want to serve them from a different server. Seriously? I guess I can see a sort of a security rationale for this, or perhaps DRM... but I find it so strange that all this extra effort went into what should have been obvious: use the fonts that the OS already knows how to use. *sigh* OTOH, let's suppose we can work around that somehow -- I don't think it should be a problem to detect IE and send it a different type of file, right? I'm not sure of the implications of this for using them from a local disk (as no server is involved). Actually, for a local notebook, there is certainly a server involved, so this won't be a problem. Second, several browsers load web fonts asynchronously, meaning that they initially show the character in a default font and then change the page after the font is loaded. Because jsMath must measure the size of parts of the mathematics while it is constructing the typeset formula, this approach will not work (the sizes would change after the math has ben typeset). So you would need to work out a method of determining when the font is actually available and wait until after that to start typesetting mathematics. The only ways I can think of to do this are fragile hacks. Our use case isn't quite the same: the page will load, and the font will get cached, hopefully indefinitely. So for the most part, a user will see one badly-rendered page. First impressions last, yes, but if the user doesn't have a cookie set, we can warn them that they might be looking at a poorly rendered version, click this button to re-render. That seems OK to me. I have been looking forward to being able to use web fonts with jsMath, but it is not a trivial change, and I'm not sure when I will get to it. That you think this is nontrivial is a little discouraging for me... but I have yet to read your code. I'll crack it open and take a look, at the very least. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: JSMath Fonts
On Jul 16, 2:19 pm, Alex Clemesha cleme...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for posting this! I'm really surprised that Mozilla has lagged on this as much as they did. Searching for @font-face browser support shows that IE has had this since version4:http://webfonts.info/wiki/index.php?title=%40font-face_browser_support but now it looks like all the major browsers are getting this functionality. Anyways, it's great to see browsers getting better and better. True. Note however that IE has the following stipulation: font formats: Embedded OpenType (EOT) created by Microsoft's WEFT tool That seems less than desirable, but maybe it's okay? - kcrisman At long last, the Mozilla team has heard the voice of reason, and allows the browser to download fonts! This means no more jsmath warning! Next week, I'm going to take a crack at remedying this problem in jsmath itself, and submitting it upstream. Failing that, I'll put it into the notebook code. http://craigmod.com/journal/font-face/ --tom -- Alex Clemesha clemesha.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: JSMath Fonts
On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 11:59 AM, kcrismankcris...@gmail.com wrote: On Jul 16, 2:19 pm, Alex Clemesha cleme...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for posting this! I'm really surprised that Mozilla has lagged on this as much as they did. Searching for @font-face browser support shows that IE has had this since version4:http://webfonts.info/wiki/index.php?title=%40font-face_browser_support but now it looks like all the major browsers are getting this functionality. Anyways, it's great to see browsers getting better and better. True. Note however that IE has the following stipulation: font formats: Embedded OpenType (EOT) created by Microsoft's WEFT tool That seems less than desirable, but maybe it's okay? Looks like WEFT converts from TTF into EOT, so we should be able to work around this. It looks like WEFT is free (beer), and rather permissive: Platform: WEFT was designed to work on Windows 98 and continues to work on newer versions of the Windows operating system. Users have reported that WEFT 3 works under Apple operating systems running the latest versions of some PC emulators. http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/download.aspx - kcrisman At long last, the Mozilla team has heard the voice of reason, and allows the browser to download fonts! This means no more jsmath warning! Next week, I'm going to take a crack at remedying this problem in jsmath itself, and submitting it upstream. Failing that, I'll put it into the notebook code. http://craigmod.com/journal/font-face/ --tom -- Alex Clemesha clemesha.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-devel-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
So to be crystal, are the files TeX-fonts-n.zip listed here http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath-fonts.html public domain? Yes, that is how I understand it. Certainly I am not planing to restrict them in any way myself, and I am happy to give you special permission to include them in sage if hat would help. Davide --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
On Jan 25, 2008 2:43 PM, dpvc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I understand things correctly, the fonts up at http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath-fonts.html are based on the Bakoma fonts, and the license quoted above is the Bakoma fonts license. If you look at the original Bakoma fonts link at the jsMath fonts page, you'll see inside the zip file a file named BaKoMa-CM.Fonts, which contains the license agreement (and is quoted above). You are right that the original jsMath fonts were the BaKoMa fonts, but that is no longer the case. The encoding used by the BaKoMa fonts turned out to be problematic, and so I made my own versions using mftrace directly from the Computer Modern metafont files. So the BaKoMa copyright no longer applies. The Computer Modern fonts were put into the public domain by Knuth (see http://www.ntg.nl/maps/pdf/5_34.pdf), so I don't think there is any problem using these versions in Sage. Hi Davide, Thanks for your very helpful answer. So to be crystal, are the files TeX-fonts-n.zip listed here http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath-fonts.html public domain? -- William 1. Davide does not distribute this license agreement (or any other) with his modified versions of the Bakoma fonts. Does that mean he claims the copyright and he is the only one we need to work with for redistribution? No, I don't claim copyright. 2. If the license agreement of the original Bakoma fonts is the one in effect, then it sounds like we might have to work with them as well as Davide to okay the redistribution of his modified fonts. No, BoKoMa is no longer involved, as these are unrelated to their versions of the fonts. Davide -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
Anyway, I would be most comfortable if we found out from the jsmath author (Davide Cervone, who I've cc'd and who sometimes reads sage-devel) whether it is ok with him if we distribute the jsmath fons with the sage distribution, even if said distribution could in some cases be sold (to support our project). You might look into the Stix font project. http://www.stixfonts.org Axiom uses the stix fonts in the firefox help browser. Mathematica also allows their fonts to be used (but not distributed with the system). Tim --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
William Stein wrote: On Jan 25, 2008 12:14 AM, Jason Grout [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There has been some discussion about including the computer modern jsMath fonts in Sage to ease installation. The license agreement for these fonts is: The author of this fonts grants to any individual or non-commercial organization the right to use and to make an unlimited number of copies of full package or selected fonts when this is done WITHOUT CHARGE and has attached this file with licence agreement. This fonts cannot be sold or distributed with any commercial product or used in any commercial organization without additional agreement with author. If you want to charge a small fee via distribution these fonts or any derivations from this fonts, you should contact the author. This restriction is also true for only outlines from this fonts i.e. outlines exported into other font formats, for example TrueType or Type3. This restriction is not intended to apply to connect time charges, or flat rate connection/download fees for electronic bulletin board services. -- Is that compatible with GPL 3? No. But I don't think it matters because these are fonts that will not be binary linked with Sage at runtime, so it isn't necessary that their copyright be compatible with the GPL. That said, we need clarification regarding the statement This fonts cannot be sold or distributed with any commercial product or used in any commercial organization without additional agreement with author. If you want to charge a small fee via distribution these fonts or any derivations from this fonts, you should contact the author. We need clarification, since we fully *do* intend to sell Sage. E.g., I sold a copy the other day in my office to a retired Boeing engineer for $20 (he wouldn't take no for an answer).And we'll likely also sell Sage online via lulo (as Robert Bradshaw mentioned). However, Sage is not-for-profit, so it's unclear whether it counts as any commercial product. Anyway, I would be most comfortable if we found out from the jsmath author (Davide Cervone, who I've cc'd and who sometimes reads sage-devel) whether it is ok with him if we distribute the jsmath fons with the sage distribution, even if said distribution could in some cases be sold (to support our project). If I understand things correctly, the fonts up at http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath-fonts.html are based on the Bakoma fonts, and the license quoted above is the Bakoma fonts license. If you look at the original Bakoma fonts link at the jsMath fonts page, you'll see inside the zip file a file named BaKoMa-CM.Fonts, which contains the license agreement (and is quoted above). 1. Davide does not distribute this license agreement (or any other) with his modified versions of the Bakoma fonts. Does that mean he claims the copyright and he is the only one we need to work with for redistribution? 2. If the license agreement of the original Bakoma fonts is the one in effect, then it sounds like we might have to work with them as well as Davide to okay the redistribution of his modified fonts. According to the top of BaKoMa-CM.Fonts, the license holders are: ** * * *BaKoMa Fonts Collection * *=== Level B === * * Version 1.1/12-Nov-94 * * * * Copyright (C) 1994, Basil K. Malyshev. All Rights Reserved. * * * ** and according to the bottom of the file, we can contact them at: ** * Author location and bug report address * ** If you have some remarks about fonts shape quality, encoding or compatibily with different software you can notify author: Basil K. Malyshev INSTITUTE FOR HIGH ENERGY PHYSICS IHEP, OMVT Moscow Region 142284 PROTVINO RUSSIA E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Happy TeXing with my fonts. Basil K. Malyshev, 12-Nov-1994, Geneva, Switzerland. ** *End of BaKoMa-CM.Fonts file. * ** -Jason --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
If I understand things correctly, the fonts up at http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath-fonts.html are based on the Bakoma fonts, and the license quoted above is the Bakoma fonts license. If you look at the original Bakoma fonts link at the jsMath fonts page, you'll see inside the zip file a file named BaKoMa-CM.Fonts, which contains the license agreement (and is quoted above). You are right that the original jsMath fonts were the BaKoMa fonts, but that is no longer the case. The encoding used by the BaKoMa fonts turned out to be problematic, and so I made my own versions using mftrace directly from the Computer Modern metafont files. So the BaKoMa copyright no longer applies. The Computer Modern fonts were put into the public domain by Knuth (see http://www.ntg.nl/maps/pdf/5_34.pdf), so I don't think there is any problem using these versions in Sage. 1. Davide does not distribute this license agreement (or any other) with his modified versions of the Bakoma fonts. Does that mean he claims the copyright and he is the only one we need to work with for redistribution? No, I don't claim copyright. 2. If the license agreement of the original Bakoma fonts is the one in effect, then it sounds like we might have to work with them as well as Davide to okay the redistribution of his modified fonts. No, BoKoMa is no longer involved, as these are unrelated to their versions of the fonts. Davide --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
You might look into the Stix font project. http://www.stixfonts.org Axiom uses the stix fonts in the firefox help browser. Mathematica also allows their fonts to be used (but not distributed with the system). I do plan to support the STIX fonts in jsMath, but haven't had the time to make the required data needed by jsMath for them yet. Davide --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-devel] Re: jsMath fonts
On Jan 25, 2008 12:14 AM, Jason Grout [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There has been some discussion about including the computer modern jsMath fonts in Sage to ease installation. The license agreement for these fonts is: The author of this fonts grants to any individual or non-commercial organization the right to use and to make an unlimited number of copies of full package or selected fonts when this is done WITHOUT CHARGE and has attached this file with licence agreement. This fonts cannot be sold or distributed with any commercial product or used in any commercial organization without additional agreement with author. If you want to charge a small fee via distribution these fonts or any derivations from this fonts, you should contact the author. This restriction is also true for only outlines from this fonts i.e. outlines exported into other font formats, for example TrueType or Type3. This restriction is not intended to apply to connect time charges, or flat rate connection/download fees for electronic bulletin board services. -- Is that compatible with GPL 3? No. But I don't think it matters because these are fonts that will not be binary linked with Sage at runtime, so it isn't necessary that their copyright be compatible with the GPL. That said, we need clarification regarding the statement This fonts cannot be sold or distributed with any commercial product or used in any commercial organization without additional agreement with author. If you want to charge a small fee via distribution these fonts or any derivations from this fonts, you should contact the author. We need clarification, since we fully *do* intend to sell Sage. E.g., I sold a copy the other day in my office to a retired Boeing engineer for $20 (he wouldn't take no for an answer).And we'll likely also sell Sage online via lulo (as Robert Bradshaw mentioned). However, Sage is not-for-profit, so it's unclear whether it counts as any commercial product. Anyway, I would be most comfortable if we found out from the jsmath author (Davide Cervone, who I've cc'd and who sometimes reads sage-devel) whether it is ok with him if we distribute the jsmath fons with the sage distribution, even if said distribution could in some cases be sold (to support our project). --William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel URLs: http://www.sagemath.org -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
