Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Brett Viren]

Just a couple thoughts on framing this "development":

Yasha Karant  writes:

> Translation -- as a for-profit vendor, IBM does not want to subsidize
> a competitor to RHEL that is without fee.

I see this move in even worse light.  Previously there was mutual
benefit and trust between RH and CentOS/SL communities.  The collective
worked to make the shared system better, RH made money from those that
need their hands held, while CentOS/SL community did not need to pay for
what they did not need.

What RH/IBM have done is to turn that relationship into an *exploitive*
one.  It has not just cut off the community from the "freeness" (as in
beerness).  Rather, the community (whatever will remain of it) now
*works for free* for RH/IBM as beta testers.

Now, for some, I think this new arrangement will be just fine.  The
"stream" nature of the CentOS new world order may actually be welcome
for use some cases.  Eg, I use and love Debian "testing" on my laptop.
I can imagine those deep in the RH world and who do not already use
Fedora on their laptops or workstations will enjoy CentOS Stream (I hear
them crying now, "there are tens of us!").

For others, notably "grid" and other clusters and the sea of individual
servers that can't afford RHEL but require stability, a new solution
must be found.

I've always considered Debian far more of a "scientific Linux" than SL.
It has the stability and security fix support needed for large stable
clusters and services.  A switch of course will take effort.  Lots of
retraining (as someone who hates using RH, I can imagine there is a
symmetry in how many RH admins/users think of Debian).  Never the less,
this development has made me hopeful that the crisis will bring about a
better, Debian-oriented scientific computing future.

> I suspect that I made the "correct" planning decision to switch to
> Ubuntu LTS (until such time as Canonical follows the RH IBM path
> ...).

Canonical worries me (looking at you, "snaps") but in some sense they
already have their beneficial exploitation of Debian (which has a decent
level of mutuality) and that puts them kind of in their place.

I can not imagine it would ever be worth it for Canonical to abandon
Debian as their upstream feed.  If they took a model of charging for
Ubuntu builds (ala RHEL), it is relatively easy for users large and
small to move to pure Debian or to one of the many Ubuntu rebuilds.  For
Canonical to "pull a RedHat" they'd need to "aquihire" the community
leaders.  I don't think it is technically possible for Debian to "sell
out" like CentOS leadership.  They are too numerous and too goverened by
strong rules and practices that encode a moral community oriented
philosophy.  Nor would Debian give up due to funding as SL had to do.
Debian actually has a surplus of cash.  Likewise, the number of Ubuntu
re-builds is too large for Canonical to buy out all of them.

So, Canonical are, I think, "stuck".  But, in a good way.  They are not
able to turn the tables on their community in the manner that RH/IBM
just did.


Well, famous last words, never underestimate the creative amorality of
corporations, etc

-Brett.


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Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Maarten]

https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.redhat.com_en_blog_faq-2Dcentos-2Dstream-2Dupdates-23Q12=DwIDaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=FCHZnyuFoWqTM3SyDoXaKAG6aBmlut12Lj80X4nfBUw=4PW9qOS5ATcKxRe0dvVI9Qdzq7vivIRywZU0jKR8298= 


On 12/9/20 8:25 PM, Yasha Karant wrote:
If my recollection of the history is correct, CentOS and Princeton EL 
were separate from SL.  CentOS originally was a "volunteer" effort 
building from RHEL source, with RH personnel monitoring the CentOS 
"lists" because CentOS had a wider range of an installed base on 
enthusiast and home user systems, in addition to "professional" 
systems (such as the HP Zbook laptop workstation that I use).  The 
earlier SL major releases had some differences in the base installed 
system from EL "stock", whereas CentOS did not.  Later major releases 
of SL essentially were the same in the "base" as EL (in all cases, 
logos must change).  I never worked with the Princeton release.  When 
RH (not Fedora -- real production RH) was an executable installable 
supported distro, pre-EL, we used that, licensed for free for 
"personal" use.  Prior to RH, I was using Debian (the GNU Linux), and 
once RH had no executable installable supported distro, I switched to 
CentOS. I then switched to SL because CentOS was having issues and SL 
was professionally produced (Fermilab/CERN) with the level of 
professional support we needed (that is, this list, plus Fermilab SL 
support staff who would fix some things -- such as inconsistencies or 
missing components in the standard SL distro -- we do NOT need nor use 
"commercial cradle to grave" handholding support, unlike the 
University IT division for which everything essentially is outsourced 
to for-profit vendors, as part of the USA scheme for public funding of 
private for-profit entities and wealth transference to the wealthy. 
With the demise of SL 8 and the purchase of RH and CentOS by IBM, I 
switched to Ubuntu LTS.  If Canonical goes the way of RH, then I 
suppose I will look at Debian again.


On 12/9/20 10:47 AM, Konstantin Olchanski wrote:

Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.

I guess that CERN was caught red-handed as well.


(wrong metaphor? you wanted "with pants down" or "off guard" or 
something like that?

there is no evidence that CERN was "in" on this change, yes?)

They have already started to port their internal systems to CentOS8 
according to the

recent site report at HEPiX:
https://indico.cern.ch/event/898285/contributions/4015535/attachments/2120621/3569557/CERN_Site_Report_-_HEPiX_Autumn_2020_v2.pdf 



As one may remember, CERN Linux, SL and CentOS only exist because 
CERN could

not agree with Red Hat on the licensing scheme for LHC-scale computing.

(I guess, at the LHC scale, even small numbers like $1/license become 
unworkable).



BTW, in other news,

I see the CentOS wiki was changed to read "CentOS-8 full updates and 
Maintenance Updates"

from "May 2024 and May 2029" to "December 2021 and December 31, 2021",
see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product=DwICaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=eMvBVbBFwtBD5Xbw1LErGQIapxF_ioOOJoO-OqCNa6g=CaCDrxtp7Ka4fRCXAiVCT34Zxxx_VD19P2hQeMXliqs= 
and
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product-3Faction-3Drecall-26rev-3D122=DwICaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=eMvBVbBFwtBD5Xbw1LErGQIapxF_ioOOJoO-OqCNa6g=dx8Ilr6PNf35kZ8hodzZ5JC9z40X9p5iMktTifR_C34= 

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Yasha Karant]

If my recollection of the history is correct, CentOS and Princeton EL 
were separate from SL.  CentOS originally was a "volunteer" effort 
building from RHEL source, with RH personnel monitoring the CentOS 
"lists" because CentOS had a wider range of an installed base on 
enthusiast and home user systems, in addition to "professional" systems 
(such as the HP Zbook laptop workstation that I use).  The earlier SL 
major releases had some differences in the base installed system from EL 
"stock", whereas CentOS did not.  Later major releases of SL essentially 
were the same in the "base" as EL (in all cases, logos must change).  I 
never worked with the Princeton release.  When RH (not Fedora -- real 
production RH) was an executable installable supported distro, pre-EL, 
we used that, licensed for free for "personal" use.  Prior to RH, I was 
using Debian (the GNU Linux), and once RH had no executable installable 
supported distro, I switched to CentOS. I then switched to SL because 
CentOS was having issues and SL was professionally produced 
(Fermilab/CERN) with the level of professional support we needed (that 
is, this list, plus Fermilab SL support staff who would fix some things 
-- such as inconsistencies or missing components in the standard SL 
distro -- we do NOT need nor use "commercial cradle to grave" 
handholding support, unlike the University IT division for which 
everything essentially is outsourced to for-profit vendors, as part of 
the USA scheme for public funding of private for-profit entities and 
wealth transference to the wealthy. With the demise of SL 8 and the 
purchase of RH and CentOS by IBM, I switched to Ubuntu LTS.  If 
Canonical goes the way of RH, then I suppose I will look at Debian again.


On 12/9/20 10:47 AM, Konstantin Olchanski wrote:

Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.

I guess that CERN was caught red-handed as well.


(wrong metaphor? you wanted "with pants down" or "off guard" or something like 
that?
there is no evidence that CERN was "in" on this change, yes?)


They have already started to port their internal systems to CentOS8 according 
to the
recent site report at HEPiX:
https://indico.cern.ch/event/898285/contributions/4015535/attachments/2120621/3569557/CERN_Site_Report_-_HEPiX_Autumn_2020_v2.pdf


As one may remember, CERN Linux, SL and CentOS only exist because CERN could
not agree with Red Hat on the licensing scheme for LHC-scale computing.

(I guess, at the LHC scale, even small numbers like $1/license become 
unworkable).


BTW, in other news,

I see the CentOS wiki was changed to read "CentOS-8 full updates and Maintenance 
Updates"
from "May 2024 and May 2029" to "December 2021 and December 31, 2021",
see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product=DwICaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=eMvBVbBFwtBD5Xbw1LErGQIapxF_ioOOJoO-OqCNa6g=CaCDrxtp7Ka4fRCXAiVCT34Zxxx_VD19P2hQeMXliqs= 
and
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product-3Faction-3Drecall-26rev-3D122=DwICaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=eMvBVbBFwtBD5Xbw1LErGQIapxF_ioOOJoO-OqCNa6g=dx8Ilr6PNf35kZ8hodzZ5JC9z40X9p5iMktTifR_C34= 

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Konstantin Olchanski]

> > Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.
> I guess that CERN was caught red-handed as well.

(wrong metaphor? you wanted "with pants down" or "off guard" or something like 
that?
there is no evidence that CERN was "in" on this change, yes?)

> They have already started to port their internal systems to CentOS8 according 
> to the
> recent site report at HEPiX:
> https://indico.cern.ch/event/898285/contributions/4015535/attachments/2120621/3569557/CERN_Site_Report_-_HEPiX_Autumn_2020_v2.pdf

As one may remember, CERN Linux, SL and CentOS only exist because CERN could
not agree with Red Hat on the licensing scheme for LHC-scale computing.

(I guess, at the LHC scale, even small numbers like $1/license become 
unworkable).


BTW, in other news,

I see the CentOS wiki was changed to read "CentOS-8 full updates and 
Maintenance Updates"
from "May 2024 and May 2029" to "December 2021 and December 31, 2021",
see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product=DwIBAg=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=m57TS8KUJogsGkZGVKvoL8D7gIzlEIxZsrqSEhDOgqk=eQQfaXijQiDmBJz_iRNxOctSQXnzptQdtMj7Xk8N340=
 
and
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__wiki.centos.org_action_recall_About_Product-3Faction-3Drecall-26rev-3D122=DwIBAg=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=m57TS8KUJogsGkZGVKvoL8D7gIzlEIxZsrqSEhDOgqk=Hgd0S_7BGuuCKHIfyfpJaucFixwNwISvlHKpHhHwg4E=
 


-- 
Konstantin Olchanski
Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow!
Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca
Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Götz Waschk]

Am 09.12.20 um 01:39 schrieb Patrick J. LoPresti:
> Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.
I guess that CERN was caught red-handed as well. They have already
started to port their internal systems to CentOS8 according to the
recent site report at HEPiX:
https://indico.cern.ch/event/898285/contributions/4015535/attachments/2120621/3569557/CERN_Site_Report_-_HEPiX_Autumn_2020_v2.pdf

Regards,
Götz

-- 
Götz Waschk° Phone:  +49 33762 77169
Deutsches Elektronen-Synchrotron DESY  ° Fax:+49 33762 77216
Platanenallee 6° E-Mail: goetz.was...@desy.de
15738 Zeuthen Germany



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Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Andrew C Aitchison]

With my conspiracy-theory hat on, I suspect the timing of this
announcement, a week after the demise of the much-loved RHEL6.

--
Andrew C. Aitchison Kendal, UK
and...@aitchison.me.uk

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Yasha Karant]

I agree with your sentiments, based upon several informal discussions I 
have had with CentOS 8 "adopters".  "Supported" RHEL 8 seems to be 
better -- but are there still issues with EPEL, etc., because of 
inappropriate sub-system designations (as with the python example you 
provide)?  From what I can tell, Ubuntu LTS is a bit more "adaptable". 
Given the tool set and source partitions you describe, fortunately, I 
currently am not porting from source, and compile applications from 
source only when the "source" has a specification for the actual distro 
release that I use.


On 12/8/20 7:11 PM, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 9:31 PM Konstantin Olchanski  wrote:


On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 04:39:32PM -0800, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:


It has been almost exactly seven years since Red Hat bought CentOS



The way I remember it, RedHat approached CentOS lead developers and
made them an offer they could not refuse.



Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.



Nothing from CERN yet. But to sense where the wind is blowing,
note how ROOT still do not provide a binary kit for CentOS-8.
https://root.cern/releases/release-62206/



Our experiment at CERN (ALPHA anti-hydrogen trapping and spectroscopy)
uses CentOS-7 and we are in discussions over upgrading to CentOS-8
or Ubuntu LTS 20.04. All our RaspberyPi machines will probably
become converted from CentOS-7 to Raspbian (Ubuntu/Debian). For DAQ and
analysis machines, there is a preference for CentOS-8, but if we they
tell us now that CentOS-8 is a dead end and in 1 year will will have
to upgrade *again*, Ubuntu may become the preferred solution.


I'm unhappy with CentOs 8. The primary python 3 is already obsolete,
python 3.6, and should have been published as "python36" rather than
"pythone3" to allow a compatible "python38" parallel upgrade path.
Unfortunately, they've convinced EPEL as well to name packages
"python3" for "python36" packages in EPEL 7 and EPEL 8.  Guess what
fun this causes over in the Amazon Linux world, where "python3" is
"python37" and python modules from EPEL can no longer be used safely.

Do not get me *started* on "modular RPMs", which have proven very
destabilizing for building anything, for which there is no usable
documentation on how to build them or resolve circular
incompatibilities. And the unnecessary and unwelcome split among the
channels "base", powertools", "appstream" and "my uncle's secret ninja
repo that RHEL originally refused to publish because you shouldn't
need those to compile things we compile in-house", now called "devel"
were unwelcome splits.

And oh, the "we leave out encryption related components for popular
open source tools that we used to publish in RHEL 7" have eaten my
development time building up python module tool chains, especially for
awx, the ansible tower equivalent. I'm pretty unhappy about it.

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Konstantin Olchanski]

On Tue, Dec 08, 2020 at 04:39:32PM -0800, Patrick J. LoPresti wrote:
>
> It has been almost exactly seven years since Red Hat bought CentOS
>

The way I remember it, RedHat approached CentOS lead developers and
made them an offer they could not refuse.

> 
> Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.
> 

Nothing from CERN yet. But to sense where the wind is blowing,
note how ROOT still do not provide a binary kit for CentOS-8.
https://root.cern/releases/release-62206/

Our experiment at CERN (ALPHA anti-hydrogen trapping and spectroscopy)
uses CentOS-7 and we are in discussions over upgrading to CentOS-8
or Ubuntu LTS 20.04. All our RaspberyPi machines will probably
become converted from CentOS-7 to Raspbian (Ubuntu/Debian). For DAQ and
analysis machines, there is a preference for CentOS-8, but if we they
tell us now that CentOS-8 is a dead end and in 1 year will will have
to upgrade *again*, Ubuntu may become the preferred solution.

-- 
Konstantin Olchanski
Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow!
Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca
Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Patrick J. LoPresti]

It has been almost exactly seven years since Red Hat bought CentOS (
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_scientific-2Dlinux-2Dusers-40fnal.gov_msg01499.html=DwIBaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=k9C3FsK8ruGItyjO2valZJ7PiSyD6dfXo0o_uJDy9vc=hWYvmZ1dB98Fa5LjmQDAIUbm_0aIxLNdps_vUzte8CI=
 ).
I admit this move took longer than I expected. I suppose I was so early I
was functionally wrong.

The cost of switching to Ubuntu for us is large; we have big investments in
RPM and related technologies. I guess we have to start exploring it anyway.

Very curious how CERN and Fermilab will respond to this.

 - Pat

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[d tbsky]

is there any possibility for scientific linux 8?
we are testing centos 8 for several monthes, but scientific linux is
much better.

Re: CentOS 8 EOL; CentOS Stream?

[Yasha Karant]

For those who want to be nauseated, here is the essential quote of the post:

The future of the CentOS Project is CentOS Stream, and over the next 
year we’ll be shifting focus from CentOS Linux, the rebuild of Red Hat 
Enterprise Linux (RHEL), to CentOS Stream, which tracks just ahead of a 
current RHEL release. CentOS Linux 8, as a rebuild of RHEL 8, will end 
at the end of 2021. CentOS Stream continues after that date, serving as 
the upstream (development) branch of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.


Translation -- as a for-profit vendor, IBM does not want to subsidize a 
competitor to RHEL that is without fee.  Building RHEL from the source, 
that IBM RH is required to distribute under the terms of the license 
from which the source is obtained, is resource prohibitive.  I do not 
know the fate of the next Princeton clone of RHEL. What will the various 
HEP collaborations do?  Will Fermilab/CERN provide internal professional 
person power (not just grad students and postdocs for whom such support 
is only as much as their research supervisor requires) to maintain an 
internal RHEL 8 clone from RHEL source?  Given that the public 
pronouncements were to use CentOS 8 as the RHEL 8 clone in the HEP 
production environments, and that this is now not "long term" possible 
(CentOS stream is beta at best -- more or less a Fedora like unsupported 
cycle), one may be curious as to the future of HEP.  It is possible that 
IBM (that has branches almost everywhere in the nations from which HEP 
collaborators are housed) will decide for a publicity-gain and 
tax-write-off to partner with Fermilab/CERN and license RHEL 8 (and 9 
and ... ) at either a very reduced fee or for "free".  But what about 
those of us who are not in such a HEP collaboration?


I too have heard some nasty comments about Oracle EL 8 in terms of 
Oracle really using it more or less as a lure with the eventual goal of 
fund extraction from those who attempt to use the executable distro 
licensed for free.  Also, what about the various professional add-on 
distros, such as EPEL or ElRepo?


I suspect that I made the "correct" planning decision to switch to 
Ubuntu LTS (until such time as Canonical follows the RH IBM path ...). 
For those contemplating such a move, the changes are not that drastic, 
particularly if one "debugs" on a single sample of each class of machine 
(workstation, server, etc.).  I am willing to provide my notes (howtos) 
that I have garnered for Ubuntu LTS (my machine currently is 20.04.1 
LTS, and there is a 18.04 LTS machine that shortly will upgrade-in-place 
to 20.04 LTS -- both are laptop workstations, not "enthusiast home use" 
machines, one Dell, one HP).  For applications that are standardized for 
EL (we had these on a high performance compute server with a particular 
Infiniband implementation, but that machine largely is now obsolete), I 
am not certain what would be involved in porting -- if the libraries 
(typically, .so) are available in LTS, this should be not too difficult 
-- particularly on a set of replicated installs.


An additional large question for the community is the future of the 
X86-64/Nvidia GPU architecture.  The latest Fujitsu HPC is ARM based, as 
are the latest Mac OS machines.  Is ARM coming of real use beyond "smart 
phones" and the like, but as "real computers"?


Take care.  Stay safe.

On 12/8/20 3:38 PM, ~Stack~ wrote:

Anyone else on the verge of tears after reading today's CentOS blog post?
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.centos.org_2020_12_future-2Dis-2Dcentos-2Dstream_=DwICaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=t2J9jUFVgun90FIMquH4QRfvlPyoP8v5iYSZEcA87_g=-5u1jeYbTrmg0sZScxVN-0qJ1ifC2BEGlmW4_B70SYw= 

If you don't know CentOS Stream, it's "upstream RHEL". No, not Fedora. 
Yes, that too is "upstream RHEL". CentOS Stream a rolling release (so 
good luck getting long term steady kernels/packages) that is trying to 
be Arch like but with RHEL flavor. It sits in between RHEL and Fedora. 
It isn't and won't track steady releases like RHEL. It will have things 
before RHEL, except for security patches which will still come in 
whenever someone gets around to it. And, no, they still won't tag their 
security patches as such because they expect you to apply patches (and 
potentially reboot) at their whim.


For those of us in the scientific community who have packages from 
vendors that standardize on RHEL dot releases, I'm not sure what we're 
going to do. We have RHEL licensing on the important infrastructure 
nodes but the hundreds of compute nodes, VM's, dev systems, and misc? 
Going all RHEL would kill our budget. And I don't care if Oracle Linux 
is free or how good of a clone it is, you only get burned by Oracle once 
(and you are usually to broke to be burned a second time).


I suppose we can shift nearly all of our infrastructure to Ubuntu LTS 
but there's a lot still left that I'm not sure we can move to 

Re: Centos 8 last straw

[Nico Kadel-Garcia]

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 10:23 PM d tbsky  wrote:
>
> Larry Linder 
> >1 more week and we have to reload SL 7.6 and give it up.  Maybe we will
> > try RH 9 in a few years.
> >
>
>   you should wait for at least RHEL 8.1, or 8.2 to try/use it.
> current RHEL 8 is just to give you a feeling for next OS.

This is normal for every major RHEL/CentOS/SL release.

Re: Centos 8 last straw

[d tbsky]

Larry Linder 
>1 more week and we have to reload SL 7.6 and give it up.  Maybe we will
> try RH 9 in a few years.
>

  you should wait for at least RHEL 8.1, or 8.2 to try/use it.
current RHEL 8 is just to give you a feeling for next OS.

Re: centOS 8

[David Sommerseth]

On 17/10/2019 18:42, Akemi Yagi wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:30 AM Stephan Wiesand  
> wrote:
>>
>>> On 17. Oct 2019, at 14:01, David Sommerseth 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> You do know that Oracle EL is based on CentOS source RPMs?
>>
>> Given that they released 8 more than two months before CentOS, I'm not sure 
>> that's
>> correct?
> 
> I'm sure David meant "git.centos.org". :)

Correct! Thank you for clarifying this.


-- 
kind regards,

David Sommerseth

Re: centOS 8

[Akemi Yagi]

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:30 AM Stephan Wiesand  wrote:
>
> > On 17. Oct 2019, at 14:01, David Sommerseth 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > You do know that Oracle EL is based on CentOS source RPMs?
>
> Given that they released 8 more than two months before CentOS, I'm not sure 
> that's
> correct?

I'm sure David meant "git.centos.org". :)

> Speaking of source RPMs, does anyone know where to find the latest CentOS 8 
> ones?
> I thought they're supposed to be available on vault.centos.org, but that 
> seems to
> be lagging behind. Am I missing something, or will I have to learn how to 
> rebuild
> them from git.centos.org content?

> Stephan

You mean updated packages since GA? Yes, lagging behind. Sometimes (or
often times?), it needs to push^W encourage centos devs to have the
srpms released to vault. ;)

Akemi

Re: centOS 8

[Stephan Wiesand]

> On 17. Oct 2019, at 14:01, David Sommerseth  
> wrote:
> 
> You do know that Oracle EL is based on CentOS source RPMs?

Given that they released 8 more than two months before CentOS, I'm not sure 
that's
correct?

Speaking of source RPMs, does anyone know where to find the latest CentOS 8 
ones?
I thought they're supposed to be available on vault.centos.org, but that seems 
to
be lagging behind. Am I missing something, or will I have to learn how to 
rebuild
them from git.centos.org content?

>  So why would
> Oracle EL be better than CentOS in this case, which would also be an implicit
> support of a company not being much open source friendly (just look at what
> has happened with java/openjdk, openoffice.org/libreoffice, mysql/mariadb).

Nobody loves Oracle, but - while I haven't tried it yet - it looks like their
Linux folks are doing a pretty decent job providing an EL clone.

-- 
Stephan

Re: centOS 8

[Mark Rousell]

On 16/10/2019 21:14, Yasha Karant wrote:

Will the SL list continue to exist as a mechanism for raising issues
(and getting suggested solutions) for CentOS post-SL releases?  I have
found no equivalent list for either CentOS or the other possibility,
Ubuntu LTS (not RPM based, not RHEL based, but GNU Debian based).

Unless I am misunderstanding, there's a busy CentOS discussion list here: 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.centos.org_mailman_listinfo_centos=DwIGaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=LeCE5FTE9ELEO-DkTyM3OO00T578L7XK6Q_1BGgVvEY=I7F8d8A3Q9Sx8bwIdQKZBsFb53b_dZ3dqZvzEWsSmqw=
 

Re: centOS 8

[Larry Linder]

Hope the SL conversation net will stay alive.

I have found that there is little "noise" when you ask a question.  

Most of the stuff you find on the net about a subject is just
nonsensical.

Ask a question or have a problem and you get some real help that works.

I try to keep complaints to the point and they should be considered as
things that need to be fixed.

Long time SL user

Thank You All
Larry Linder

On Thu, 2019-10-17 at 14:01 +0200, David Sommerseth wrote:
> On 16/10/2019 22:14, Yasha Karant wrote:
> > As SL is "going away", and CERN/Fermilab on this list seemed to indicate 
> > future RHEL major releases would be CentOS deployments, is that in fact 
> > what is happening?  Or will there be RHEL licenses for CERN/Fermilab 
> > general deployment?
> > 
> > What about Oracle EL?  
> 
> You do know that Oracle EL is based on CentOS source RPMs?  So why would
> Oracle EL be better than CentOS in this case, which would also be an implicit
> support of a company not being much open source friendly (just look at what
> has happened with java/openjdk, openoffice.org/libreoffice, mysql/mariadb).
> 
> 

Re: centOS 8

[David Sommerseth]

On 16/10/2019 22:14, Yasha Karant wrote:
> As SL is "going away", and CERN/Fermilab on this list seemed to indicate 
> future RHEL major releases would be CentOS deployments, is that in fact 
> what is happening?  Or will there be RHEL licenses for CERN/Fermilab 
> general deployment?
> 
> What about Oracle EL?  

You do know that Oracle EL is based on CentOS source RPMs?  So why would
Oracle EL be better than CentOS in this case, which would also be an implicit
support of a company not being much open source friendly (just look at what
has happened with java/openjdk, openoffice.org/libreoffice, mysql/mariadb).


-- 
kind regards,

David Sommerseth

Re: centOS 8

[Yasha Karant]

My experience with "early" production releases of SL 
(post-production-deployment at CERN/Fermilab) is that it "worked".  I 
have downloaded the CentOS 8 ISO and have prepared a USB stick for 
installation.  Having read the comments below, I shall not be deploying 
CO 8 anytime soon.

As SL is "going away", and CERN/Fermilab on this list seemed to indicate 
future RHEL major releases would be CentOS deployments, is that in fact 
what is happening?  Or will there be RHEL licenses for CERN/Fermilab 
general deployment?

What about Oracle EL?  Is this experiencing the issues as discussed 
below?  From 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blogs.oracle.com_cloud-2Dinfrastructure_in-2Dan-2Dindustry-2Dfirst-2C-2Doracle-2Dbrings-2Dautonomous-2Doperation-2Dto-2Dlinux=DwIGaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=CBNiL-EofXAtF9N4nmiUm9uIfzH42PsCLWD6t1J5EGo=PHN-v29pHKvFxRbHRrwc_ga8o99OH97Vszc9arCL0AE=
 
Oracle Autonomous Linux, which is based on Oracle Linux, is 100% 
application binary compatible with Red Hat Enterprise Linux.

Will the SL list continue to exist as a mechanism for raising issues 
(and getting suggested solutions) for CentOS post-SL releases?  I have 
found no equivalent list for either CentOS or the other possibility, 
Ubuntu LTS (not RPM based, not RHEL based, but GNU Debian based).  For 
now, we are staying with SL 7, but this is not a viable longterm 
solution, particularly as new hardware configurations emerge (or needed 
applications such as VirtualBox or VMWare will require "later" libraries 
than what are available for SL 7).

Yasha Karant

On 10/5/19 10:25 AM, Larry Linder wrote:
> After tossing in the towel last Thursday we decided to try the nvidea
> install and it worked.  It is nice to have my dual high resulation
> displays back.
>
> Centos 8 problems.
>
> 1. We noticed that the mouse wheel has changed direction - why after 40
> years. This should be removed.
>
> 2.  We changed the mouse direction back to to what it had been for 40
> years and now you can't copy some command lines from a tutorial we are
> looking at with the browser.
>
> 3.  "bash" refuses to execute any command line code or linux executable
> file.
>
> 4.  There does not appear to be a C Shell.  We have 100's of usefull
> scripts that don't work.  The man pages are there but no /bin/csh.
>
> 5.   We were able to install NVidea drivers but it still didn't work.
> You have a couple of commands to run to set default to nvidea driver.
> This is the only thing that has worked.
>
> 6.   When you drag a terminal to the desktop and click to select it.  It
> rearranges all the other desktop terminal windows.
>
> 7.   Focus follows the mouse was one of the most useful things when
> putting data into other documents or spreadsheets.  Without it it makes
> doing my bank ledger almost impossible.
>
> 8.   Simple things are now complicated and require 3 to 4 time more
> mousing around to accomplish a simple task.
>
> 9.   After fixing the mouse direction we cannot even run "yum"  Checked
> permissions and paths but bash can't find it.
>
> 10   The neat little GUI that allowed you to set up users, groups,
> specify UID, home directory and shell for users is gone too.  It all
> back to the command line.
>
> 11The function to add a member to "group" doesn't work.  It does not
> change the "group" file or maybe the group file has gone away too.
>
> 12"fstab is now jiberish and the man pages have not changes.  I need
> to add a couple of directories the install disk partitions the insall
> did not install.
>
> 13after a lot of fooling around we were able to install one printer
> out of the 6.  It could not find the printserver so our large format HP
> Plotter could not be installed.
>
> 14Libera office can now get to documents on the server, you can edit
> and change file name and save them.  A great improvement.
>
> 15Setting up network and fixed IP's was a major major cammand line
> exercise.  The old utility that made it easy is now gone.
>
> 16None of my CAD / CAM packages work!  So there is nothing to plot.
>
> 17Last step is to reinstall SL 7.6 with KDE  on text box and call it
> done.
>
> Thank You again SL troops for the great work.
>
> I hate to say this:
> The most productive system in the shop is SL 5.11 running KDE 3.4.  It
> has 12 desktops, with VM-Ware it runs all our old Windows apps we need
> to support paying customers.  Focus Follows mouse and you can edit and
> paste documents just by moving the mouse.  It can capture sections for a
> windows cad package and you can paste the prawing into an Appache
> OpenOffice documtent and get you work done and get home for supper.
>
> Centos 8 is a major loss to the engineering community!!!
>
> RedHat & Centos has laid a big Egg.  The product should be recalled as a
> defective product as its basically useless.
>
> I would advise anyone who is a unix / linux user to not even bother with

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[David Sommerseth]

On 09/10/2019 21:15, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 12:10:50PM +, Teh, Kenneth M. wrote:
> 
>> One thing that annoys me is the hot top left corner but I have that 
>> disabled. 
> 
> That is nice to know, I'll find out how.  I presume Mate and
> Gnome3 can coexist on the same machine, perhaps with different
> logins to access them, so I can make the transition as Gnome3
> is adapted to my needs.
> 
> 
>> For a while I missed the icons on the desktop but I don't anymore.
> 
> Is there a way around that with Gnome3, to keep user-generated
> icons on the desktop, and few or NO system-mandatory icons?

Yes, there is a "GNOME Tweaks" app (I believe it is installed by default)
where you can enabled desktop icons and choose whether you want to show
"Home", "Network Servers", "Wastebasket" and "Mounted Volumes".

So you can have your own icons on the desktop if you want to.


This Tweaks app is also where you turn on/off various extensions to GNOME
Shell, which extends the shell with more features of your liking.  I have
these extensions installed and activated:

 - Alternatetab
 - Applications menu
 - Launch new instance
 - No topleft hot corner
 - Recent items
 - Removable drive menu
 - Sound input & output device chooser
 - Suspend button
 - Topicons

I have also one more, Pixel saver, which I like but I'm not sure if it makes
GNOME Shell unstable, as when I have maximized windows it seems to crash from
time to time (2-4 times a month or so).


-- 
kind regards,

David Sommerseth

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Jon Pruente]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 2:15 PM Keith Lofstrom  wrote:

> That is nice to know, I'll find out how.  I presume Mate and
> Gnome3 can coexist on the same machine, perhaps with different
> logins to access them, so I can make the transition as Gnome3
> is adapted to my needs.

No need for separate logins. Just choose which environment you want from
the login manager.

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Bill Maidment]

On 10/10/2019 5:15 am, Keith Lofstrom wrote:

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 12:10:50PM +, Teh, Kenneth M. wrote:

One thing that annoys me is the hot top left corner but I have that 
disabled.


That is nice to know, I'll find out how.  I presume Mate and
Gnome3 can coexist on the same machine, perhaps with different
logins to access them, so I can make the transition as Gnome3
is adapted to my needs.



For a while I missed the icons on the desktop but I don't anymore.


Is there a way around that with Gnome3, to keep user-generated
icons on the desktop, and few or NO system-mandatory icons?

I keep about two dozen icons and folders on my desktop,
changing them frequently with my workflow, different patterns
for differently tasked machines.

Sadly, it is true that some people let icons accumulate and
make a mess (resembling their physical desktops), and that
slows down the machine.  I once helped a colleague move 800
overlapped icons on her desktop to folders, and mostly to
the trash.

For me, visual organization of my work using my own icons
and classifications is vital, and saves mental effort for
more important needs.  Also important is to avoid externally
imposed change for change's sake; I'm quite capable of
introducting more changes in my own life than I can manage.

Keith

What about using gnome  3clasic
--
Cheers
Bill

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Keith Lofstrom]

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 07:44:23PM +, Teh, Kenneth M. wrote:
> The desktop icons I would have liked to have are files/documents one is 
> currently working with. I haven't figured out how.

That is exactly what I use my desktop for.  Documents I
am working on, PDFs I'm reading before filing, launchers
for my own self-generated applications,  

Most importantly, presentations ready-to-launch for
conferences (using my own presentation app), so I can
start up with the focus slide and then the title slide
in seconds.  Horsing around with a mouse and a menu
sucks when I want to focus on the audience and the
material I want to present.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom  kei...@keithl.com

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Teh, Kenneth M.]

Re: desktop icons. App icons are in the dock so having a shortcut link on the 
desktop to an app is not really needed. Hit the Super (the Windows) key and 
type 
the name of the app you want to launch. Much faster. If the current focus is 
the 
Gnome Terminal, Ctrl-Shift-N opens a new Gnome Terminal window which is what I 
use mostly.

The desktop icons I would have liked to have are files/documents one is 
currently working with. I haven't figured out how. Putting stuff in the Desktop 
folder has no effect. So, eventually, I just ended up using the file manager 
app. The only drawback is scrolling down to find for the file.  The Downloads 
window in the file manager has a 'ls -t' ordering so I imagine it is possible 
to 
configure the other folders to have the same ordering instead of the alphabetic 
or folder-then-files ordering.  This way your current document is always at the 
top.

The CLI for Gnome is gsettings but there is a gnome tweaks tool that is a GUI 
to 
gsettings. I used it for instance to add a compose key so I can type simple 
letters with diacriticals. It's worth installing.

Here's a section of my own notes on gnome with link to some useful (maybe 
outdated) info.

> Settings list
> =
> 
> A useful on-line resource for gsettings, their keys and values, is 
> 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__people.gnome.org_-7Epmkovar_system-2Dadmin-2Dguide_index.html=DwIGaQ=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=5GbBSPtAOuCA234pG8d5JY2ITZevk4w-pHdsVe8Kyns=gYM3IXWpZTse-8sAIYNQfcFL3NFlH9f0HRcuF8jkgho=
>  
> 
> No particular order:
> 
> * Disable automaximize when dragging a window to the top ::
> 
> gsettings set org.gnome.mutter auto-maximize false
> 
>   Hmm...didn't seem to work.  Reboot?  Or edge-tiling false?
> 
> * Turning caps lock into a compose key: 
>   
>   | tweak-tool -> typing -> position-of-compose-key
> 
> * Show date in the top panel ::
> 
> $ gsettings set org.gnome.shell.clock show-date true
> 
> * Dual monitor workspace. To make it span both monitors, say::
> 
> $ gsettings set org.gnome.mutter workspaces-only-on-primary false


Hope this helps.




On 10/9/19 2:15 PM, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 12:10:50PM +, Teh, Kenneth M. wrote:
> 
>> One thing that annoys me is the hot top left corner but I have that disabled.
> 
> That is nice to know, I'll find out how.  I presume Mate and
> Gnome3 can coexist on the same machine, perhaps with different
> logins to access them, so I can make the transition as Gnome3
> is adapted to my needs.
> 
> 
>> For a while I missed the icons on the desktop but I don't anymore.
> 
> Is there a way around that with Gnome3, to keep user-generated
> icons on the desktop, and few or NO system-mandatory icons?
> 
> I keep about two dozen icons and folders on my desktop,
> changing them frequently with my workflow, different patterns
> for differently tasked machines.
> 
> Sadly, it is true that some people let icons accumulate and
> make a mess (resembling their physical desktops), and that
> slows down the machine.  I once helped a colleague move 800
> overlapped icons on her desktop to folders, and mostly to
> the trash.
> 
> For me, visual organization of my work using my own icons
> and classifications is vital, and saves mental effort for
> more important needs.  Also important is to avoid externally
> imposed change for change's sake; I'm quite capable of
> introducting more changes in my own life than I can manage.
> 
> Keith
> 

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Keith Lofstrom]

On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 12:10:50PM +, Teh, Kenneth M. wrote:

> One thing that annoys me is the hot top left corner but I have that disabled. 

That is nice to know, I'll find out how.  I presume Mate and
Gnome3 can coexist on the same machine, perhaps with different
logins to access them, so I can make the transition as Gnome3
is adapted to my needs.


> For a while I missed the icons on the desktop but I don't anymore.

Is there a way around that with Gnome3, to keep user-generated
icons on the desktop, and few or NO system-mandatory icons?

I keep about two dozen icons and folders on my desktop,
changing them frequently with my workflow, different patterns
for differently tasked machines. 

Sadly, it is true that some people let icons accumulate and
make a mess (resembling their physical desktops), and that
slows down the machine.  I once helped a colleague move 800
overlapped icons on her desktop to folders, and mostly to
the trash.  

For me, visual organization of my work using my own icons
and classifications is vital, and saves mental effort for
more important needs.  Also important is to avoid externally
imposed change for change's sake; I'm quite capable of 
introducting more changes in my own life than I can manage.

Keith

-- 
Keith Lofstrom  kei...@keithl.com

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Alec Habig]

Teh, Kenneth M. writes:
> I agree with David. I've been using Gnome 3 since Fedora 26 and it's
> really quite nice. I especially like the ability to launch an app from
> the keyboard without an open terminal.

I somehow only discovered recently that in KDE, typing without a window
in focus (so, typing at the desktop I guess) does the same thing: opens
up a temporary command line so you can run something without an open
terminal.  So now I do this a lot.

But, less mousing makes me happy too - there's probably a way to map an
otherwise useless key (like the windows one) to save me having to mouse
over the desktop to do this.

Never thought I'd be wanting to steal a gnome3 thing!

-- 
   Alec Habig
 University of Minnesota Duluth
 Dept. of Physics and Astronomy
ha...@neutrino.d.umn.edu
   
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__neutrino.d.umn.edu_-7Ehabig_=DwIBAw=gRgGjJ3BkIsb5y6s49QqsA=gd8BzeSQcySVxr0gDWSEbN-P-pgDXkdyCtaMqdCgPPdW1cyL5RIpaIYrCn8C5x2A=_sBwrjb20HN_j841mPVD8P5Oz4EJJppPuHSVWKhm3Yw=oYrExQWap1-X3U_m-QBd44GbNtgDu7VFcQsaH-7ho0M=
 

Re: centOS 8 ... Gnome 3, Mate

[Teh, Kenneth M.]

I agree with David. I've been using Gnome 3 since Fedora 26 and it's really 
quite nice. I especially like the ability to launch an app from the keyboard 
without an open terminal. The Windows or Super key is really very handy. I'm 
also very fond of the Mac-style scroll. I just wish I could get my windows box 
to do the same.

One thing that annoys me is the hot top left corner but I have that disabled. 
For a while I missed the icons on the desktop but I don't anymore.




On 10/9/19 6:31 AM, David Sommerseth wrote:
> [resent with correct mail identity]
> 
> On 09/10/2019 02:19, Keith Lofstrom wrote:
>>> Centos 8 problems.
>>> 1. We noticed that the mouse wheel has changed direction ...
>>
>> Some of the issues described are Gnome3 "features", not
>> just CentOS.  I switched to Mate, a fork which resembles
>> Gnome2.  I hope the Mate team outlives me.  Send money
>> to them.
>>
>> I don't use tablets, "smart phones" (aka "dodo-paddles"),
>> gestures (besides the venerable middle digit), and other
>> cat-video-interface indoctrination and surveillance tools.
> 
> This is FUD ... And to be honest I did believe this too in the early GNOME
> 3/GNOME Shell days.  But nowadays GNOME 3 is by far more keyboard friendly
> than GNOME 2 was.  Nowadays, I mostly use the mouse to mark text and keep the
> right window focused (I use focus-follows-mouse).
> 
> So ...
> 
> - alt-tab with cursor keys to quickly flip windows without mouse.
> 
> - To open, say Firefox - hit the Windows-key, type "firef [ENTER]" - if there
> are multiple matches, use cursor keys.  And search results are adaptive, so if
> you search for the same thing more often, it appears higher up in the result
> list.
> 
> - To move windows, hit ALT-F7 and move the window with cursor keys (or go via
> the ALT+Space menu)
> 
> - To resize windows, hit ALT-F8 and resize the window with cursor keys (or go
> via ALT+Space menu)
> 
> - Maximize window: Windows key + cursor key UP
> 
> - Normalize window: Windows key + cursor key DOWN
> 
> - Maximize only cover half left or right side of the screen: Windows key +
> cursor key LEFT/RIGHT (undo by doing it once more, or Windows key + Cursor 
> DOWN)
> 
> - Restart GNOME Shell: ALT+F2 and type "r [enter]"
> 
> - Move window to another workspace: Focus the window you want to move and hit
> CTRL-ALT-SHIFT + cursor UP/DOWN
> 
> - Switch workspace: CTRL-ALT + cursor UP/DOWN
> 
> - Hit ctrl-alt-tab, and cursor keys now highlights things available on the
> "top bar" on the screen, allowing you to access those elements using cursor
> keys and the enter key.
> 
> ...
> ...
> and the list goes on.
> 
> Oh, hit the Windows key and search for "keyboard" and go down with cursor keys
> to "Settings -> Keyboard", and you see all the shortcuts there and can change
> or add more if you want.  Looking for something particular in that Keyboard
> settings window, just start typing what you're searching for.
> 
> If you've also configured GNOME to also index documents and contacts, they all
> appear when you start searching (via the Windows-key).
> 
> 
> I don't mind people bashing and complaining about bad software.  But only when
> the facts are right.
> 

Re: centOS 8

[Fait, James F.]

I tend to ignore ANY distribution with a .0 suffix.  Wait a few versions for 
the dust to settle.  I am only now starting to migrate from SL6 to SL7.  Also, 
I have always found the CentOS version of a release much harder to get going 
than the SL release.  I have not yet decided what to do with the nonsense of SL 
not doing a version 8.  I may end up going to a Debian based system like Ubuntu 
if I have to take as big of a leap as the SL7 to Centos8 sounds like.



James Fait, Ph.D.

Senior Beamline Scientist

SER-CAT, APS, Argonne National Laboratory

Building 436B-020, 9700 S. Cass Ave., Argonne, IL  60439

f...@anl.gov

Work: 630-252-0644  Cell: 815-302-2467 Fax: 630-252-0652

Light When You Need It


From: owner-scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov 
 on behalf of Larry Linder 

Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2019 4:02 PM
To: scientific-linux-us...@listserv.fnal.gov 

Subject: centOS 8

Nothing should be this hard to configure and set up.

1. The install did not recognize two other disks on system.
if you run "fs" you get a list of disks and a number of /tmp partitions.
When you try to edit "fstab" it is non-sensical.  Didn't try to run
"mount" as the man pages are not what you see. 

2. Video is basic VGA and it ignored my GForce dual monitor card.

3. Tried to install printers and didn't see "cups" even though I
selected it to install.

4.  I tried to run a couple of our linux cad packages and bash could not
run the process.  Permissions and ownership was Checked but no luck.

5.  Even setting up the sytem name and UID to what we use on the other
systems had to be manually.  Graphic network didn't give you a clue.

6.  When it shuts down you have to pound on the key-board and try every
key and then after a long time it finally wakes up.  Couldn't what key
did it.
Just don't have time to screw with it.

After spending two days I gave up.
This whole think looks like a very low level business workstation for
the mentally challanged.  Run my IBM computer the way I designed it or
just go away.  You can only run my programs you can download.  Most look
retarded such as "CHEESE" is there a connection between title and
function - its a major stretch of the immagination.

It wants you use a cloud for everything - we don't want to use the cloud
for anything.  Our internet provider sometimes takes a 1/2 hr nap during
the day.  Its very fast when it works.  (Spectrum) - AT in our
location was hopeless, bad service, bad price.

For now we are going to upgrade all systems to SL 7.7 and then look for
a linux that is usefull for real engineering, manufacturing and
business.

The labs should look at building there own.

Any suggestions?

I will go back to work and give up on centos 8.  If I had purchased
RedHat 8 I would be really ped for getting ripped off.

Larry Linder

Re: centOS 8

[Lamar Owen]

On 10/5/19 1:25 PM, Larry Linder wrote:
... Centos 8 problems. 1. We noticed that the mouse wheel has changed 
direction - why after 40 years. This should be removed.
So, I checked into this, and I can't duplicate it on my CentOS 8 VM.  
The scroll wheel here is 'sane,' and works the way I expect. Although I 
kindof find it humorous that you don't like the scroll wheel following 
the touchpad direction and then later praise macOS, when Apple was one 
of the first to switch to the 'new' scroll wheel behavior.  also, 
the mouse wheel itself is only 34 years old, and didn't become a 
commercial offering until 1995, 24 years ago.


2. We changed the mouse direction back to to what it had been for 40 
years and now you can't copy some command lines from a tutorial we are 
looking at with the browser. 
How did you change the scroll wheel direction?  That would help find the 
side effect that broke copy/paste, among other side effects.


3. "bash" refuses to execute any command line code or linux executable 
file.
Something is odd here, since if everyone had this problem the mailing 
lists would be full of reports of the issue.  I haven't had any issues 
of this kind with my testing CentOS 8 VM.


4. There does not appear to be a C Shell. We have 100's of usefull 
scripts that don't work. The man pages are there but no /bin/csh. 

yum install tcsh  (it's not installed by default).

5. We were able to install NVidea drivers but it still didn't work. 
You have a couple of commands to run to set default to nvidea driver. 
This is the only thing that has worked.


The rpmfusion repository has RPM-packaged nvidia drivers ready to go.  
Go to rpmfusion.org, follow the directions to enable both the 
rpmfusion-free and rpmfusion-nonfree repositories, and then

yum install kmod-nvidia xorg-x11-drv-nvidia

Or use ELrepo's time-tested packaging once it's packaged and ready (as 
of 16:17 EDT Saturday 10/5/2019 it's not in the main elrepo 
repository).  Just don't try to mix elrepo and rpmfusion. This is one of 
the main things I'm waiting on to transition my primary laptop to CentOS 
8, along with a few EPEL packages that are in the build queue.  I've 
been playing around with a CentOS 8 VM to get used to things.  There are 
a number of things that I've had to go dig for to get the behavior I'm 
used to (an Applications menu, a Places menu, workspaces that work the 
way I work, and a few others, most MOST ANNOYINGLY the absence of the 
minimize and maximize buttons in the default window decorations), but I 
had to do most of those when 7.0 was introduced, too.


6. When you drag a terminal to the desktop and click to select it. It 
rearranges all the other desktop terminal windows. 
I have no idea what you mean by 'drag a terminal to the desktop' as I've 
never opened a terminal that way; what do you mean by this?  I can't 
reproduce.  I just either go to 'Activities' or 'Applications -> 
Favorites' and click on the terminal.  I can open several, and clicking 
on any of them doesn't move any other.



9. After fixing the mouse direction we cannot even run "yum" Checked 
permissions and paths but bash can't find it. 
What does the output of 'which yum' say?  What exactly did you do to 
'fix' the mouse direction?  Something else got flummoxed, methinks.


10 The neat little GUI that allowed you to set up users, groups, 
specify UID, home directory and shell for users is gone too. It all 
back to the command line.
Settings -> Details -> Users is the default GUI to do this, but it 
doesn't have some of the settings the tool you're talking about did.
... snip other items I don't have any suggestions about or that I can't 
duplicate...


15 Setting up network and fixed IP's was a major major cammand line 
exercise. The old utility that made it easy is now gone.
The GUI is now in Settings -> Network (the settings tool can be found by 
clicking the upper right corner section of the panel, where the network, 
speaker, and power icons are; look for the icon that somewhat resembles 
a double-ended open-end wrench with a screwdriver diagonally across it; 
the button to the immediate left of the lock screen button).


If you want a fairly simple and easy to use text interface, then:
yum install NetworkManager-tui
And then run:
nmtui

16 None of my CAD / CAM packages work! So there is nothing to plot. 
You'll need to take that up with the CAD package vendor.  You can of 
course continue to use 7.x until 2024, your CAD/CAM vendor will have 
another version that will work with EL8 by then.


17 Last step is to reinstall SL 7.6 with KDE on text box and call it 
done. 


Possibly the best thing to do for your use case.


I'm not especially fond of some of the UI changes and removing of some 
very useful GUI tools I have used for a while, either.

Re: centOS 8

[Konstantin Olchanski]

On Sat, Oct 05, 2019 at 01:25:32PM -0400, Larry Linder wrote:
> 
> Centos 8 problems.
> 
> 1. We noticed that the mouse wheel has changed direction - why after 40
> years. This should be removed.
>

"get used to it". Apple and Microsoft decreed that the mouse wheel should
go same direction as touch pad. never mind that it broke the scroll bars.

> 
> 4.  There does not appear to be a C Shell.  We have 100's of usefull
> scripts that don't work.  The man pages are there but no /bin/csh.
> 

The "C-shell" was never liberated from the AT UNIX. What you though
was the C-shell, was actually the T-shell (tcsh). Maybe el8 forgot to
symlink /bin/csh -> /bin/tcsh.

>
> 5.   We were able to install NVidea drivers but it still didn't work.
> You have a couple of commands to run to set default to nvidea driver.
> This is the only thing that has worked.
> 

NVidia is spelled NVidia, with an "i".

>
> 6.   When you drag a terminal to the desktop and click to select it.  It
> rearranges all the other desktop terminal windows.
> 

Dragging things ruins the floor finish, do not do it. Terminals are for typing,
if they were meant to be moved, they would be on wheels.

>
> 7.   Focus follows the mouse was one of the most useful things when
> putting data into other documents or spreadsheets.  Without it it makes
> doing my bank ledger almost impossible.
> 

There was always a per-user setting to change this. Surely they did
not remove it in their always-war on users?

>
> 8.   Simple things are now complicated and require 3 to 4 time more
> mousing around to accomplish a simple task.
> 

You should try a Mac or Windows, even worse there.

>
> 9.   After fixing the mouse direction we cannot even run "yum"  Checked
> permissions and paths but bash can't find it.
> 

Surely /usr/bin/yum works? But did they not replace yum with dnf? Or they
did but changed the name back to yum? And kept the package names as dot-rpm
but changed the compression method to ensure lack of compatibility with old
packages?

>
> 10   The neat little GUI that allowed you to set up users, groups,
> specify UID, home directory and shell for users is gone too.  It all
> back to the command line.
> 

Yup, the good old system-config-xxx GUIs have been disappearing one-by-one
with each release.

> 
> 12"fstab is now jiberish and the man pages have not changes.  I need
> to add a couple of directories the install disk partitions the insall
> did not install.
> 

It is not gibberish. It is "mount by UUID". (find 10 differences).

> 
> 15Setting up network and fixed IP's was a major major cammand line
> exercise.  The old utility that made it easy is now gone.
> 

Welcome to the world of nm-connection-editor and "vi /etc/sysconfig/files".

>
> 16None of my CAD / CAM packages work!  So there is nothing to plot.
> 

I wonder if altera quartus works...

>
> 17Last step is to reinstall SL 7.6 with KDE  on text box and call it done.
> 

s/SL_7.6/Ubuntu_LTS/

>
> I hate to say this:
> The most productive system in the shop is SL 5.11 running KDE 3.4.
>

IMHO, SL6 was the "peak linux" from Red Hat. Downhill from there.

> 
> Centos 8 is a major loss to the engineering community!!!
> 

Nobody uses RHEL/CentOS. Even at CERN, the home of "CERN Linux" (CentOS-based),
the developers of ROOT do not use it for their development.

>
> RedHat & Centos has laid a big Egg.  The product should be recalled as a
> defective product as its basically useless.
> 

Nah, you are just the "wrong user".

>
> I would advise anyone who is a unix / linux user to not even bother with
> installing it, 
> 

I will have to try it, cannot reject it without trying first-hand.

>
> If Red Hat were smart they would look at all the good stuff that has
> worked for years and make sure new OS included them and they would have
> a winner.  They may not be fancy but they work.
> 

Instead, we have systemd, a fight with ZFS, removal of NIS, removal of KDE, 
removal of ...

> 
> Now if Apple made the Mac OS available at a reasonable cost Window 10
> and Linux would simply cese to exist.
> 

Instead, Apple is killing MacOS by stopping to build computers. Look
at the latest offerings: keyboard partially replaced with an 
extra-hard-on-figers
glass touchpad, remaining keyboard keys mostly work (check the class-action 
lawsuit about
faulty keyboards), but Apple are looking at "making the keyboard more thin".

>
> You always have to remind your self it take time it costs money.
> If it a good product the customer will be on your door step with cash in
> hand.  If there are no customers things will go cold and dark and you
> will become hungry.
> 

They found another profit center - make cat-video machines for the mass
market (capture cat videos, post them on youtube; watch cat videos on youtube,
this is the full list of supported functions).

>
> Another weekend almost shot- I am going back to sleep.
> 

Not for me. I am heading for this (today, dancing; tomorrow, playing the music)

Re: centOS 8

[Larry Linder]

After tossing in the towel last Thursday we decided to try the nvidea
install and it worked.  It is nice to have my dual high resulation
displays back.

Centos 8 problems.

1. We noticed that the mouse wheel has changed direction - why after 40
years. This should be removed.

2.  We changed the mouse direction back to to what it had been for 40
years and now you can't copy some command lines from a tutorial we are
looking at with the browser.

3.  "bash" refuses to execute any command line code or linux executable
file.

4.  There does not appear to be a C Shell.  We have 100's of usefull
scripts that don't work.  The man pages are there but no /bin/csh.

5.   We were able to install NVidea drivers but it still didn't work.
You have a couple of commands to run to set default to nvidea driver.
This is the only thing that has worked.

6.   When you drag a terminal to the desktop and click to select it.  It
rearranges all the other desktop terminal windows.

7.   Focus follows the mouse was one of the most useful things when
putting data into other documents or spreadsheets.  Without it it makes
doing my bank ledger almost impossible.

8.   Simple things are now complicated and require 3 to 4 time more
mousing around to accomplish a simple task.

9.   After fixing the mouse direction we cannot even run "yum"  Checked
permissions and paths but bash can't find it.

10   The neat little GUI that allowed you to set up users, groups,
specify UID, home directory and shell for users is gone too.  It all
back to the command line.

11The function to add a member to "group" doesn't work.  It does not
change the "group" file or maybe the group file has gone away too.

12"fstab is now jiberish and the man pages have not changes.  I need
to add a couple of directories the install disk partitions the insall
did not install.

13after a lot of fooling around we were able to install one printer
out of the 6.  It could not find the printserver so our large format HP
Plotter could not be installed.

14Libera office can now get to documents on the server, you can edit
and change file name and save them.  A great improvement.

15Setting up network and fixed IP's was a major major cammand line
exercise.  The old utility that made it easy is now gone.

16None of my CAD / CAM packages work!  So there is nothing to plot.

17Last step is to reinstall SL 7.6 with KDE  on text box and call it
done.

Thank You again SL troops for the great work.

I hate to say this:
The most productive system in the shop is SL 5.11 running KDE 3.4.  It
has 12 desktops, with VM-Ware it runs all our old Windows apps we need
to support paying customers.  Focus Follows mouse and you can edit and
paste documents just by moving the mouse.  It can capture sections for a
windows cad package and you can paste the prawing into an Appache
OpenOffice documtent and get you work done and get home for supper.

Centos 8 is a major loss to the engineering community!!!

RedHat & Centos has laid a big Egg.  The product should be recalled as a
defective product as its basically useless.

I would advise anyone who is a unix / linux user to not even bother with
installing it, 

If Red Hat were smart they would look at all the good stuff that has
worked for years and make sure new OS included them and they would have
a winner.  They may not be fancy but they work.

The thought process of its got to be "new" or is "dead" is defective
though.  You build on what works.
I very apparent that the developers have never worked in industry and a
very limited experience with doing useful work

A note on Fedora 20 years ago I complained to the Fedora community about
a problem in a version.  The response from a "KID" not good.  Basically
shot the messenger.  We turned FIDERA OFF.

Now if Apple made the Mac OS available at a reasonable cost Window 10
and Linux would simply cese to exist.

You always have to remind your self it take time it costs money.
If it a good product the customer will be on your door step with cash in
hand.  If there are no customers things will go cold and dark and you
will become hungry.

Another weekend almost shot- I am going back to sleep.

Larry Linder

I reminds me of the release of Windows 3.0 in early 90's that only did
business cards and nothing else.  It was pretty short lived
On Thu, 2019-10-03 at 17:24 -0700, jdowjunkm...@earthlink.net wrote:
> A quick search suggests there are some problems in this regard. Ideal is 
> "don't 
> install the cloud related modules in the first place." If you have you can 
> uninstall or disable the cloud service initialization. If you have been 
> running 
> awhile you may have to create new ssh etc keys. Installing the cloud "stuff" 
> apparently alters the keys.
> 
> VMs are an excellent way to test the install process for these kinds of 
> pitfalls 
> and find workarounds. They seem to be highly recommended.
> {^_^}  Joanne
> 
> On 20191003 09:43:21, Dave Dykstra wrote:
> > Larry,
> > 
> > 

Re: centOS 8

[jdowjunkm...@earthlink.net]

A quick search suggests there are some problems in this regard. Ideal is "don't 
install the cloud related modules in the first place." If you have you can 
uninstall or disable the cloud service initialization. If you have been running 
awhile you may have to create new ssh etc keys. Installing the cloud "stuff" 
apparently alters the keys.


VMs are an excellent way to test the install process for these kinds of pitfalls 
and find workarounds. They seem to be highly recommended.

{^_^}  Joanne

On 20191003 09:43:21, Dave Dykstra wrote:

Larry,

There are typically lots of rough edges for the first few point releases
in RHEL major releases.  They need people to test and report problems
including instructions on how to reproduce the problems in order to get
them fixed for later.  I wouldn't expect it to be suitable for
production use until 8.2 or 8.3.

Dave

On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 05:02:12PM -0400, Larry Linder wrote:

Nothing should be this hard to configure and set up.

1. The install did not recognize two other disks on system.
if you run "fs" you get a list of disks and a number of /tmp partitions.
When you try to edit "fstab" it is non-sensical.  Didn't try to run
"mount" as the man pages are not what you see. 

2. Video is basic VGA and it ignored my GForce dual monitor card.

3. Tried to install printers and didn't see "cups" even though I
selected it to install.

4.  I tried to run a couple of our linux cad packages and bash could not
run the process.  Permissions and ownership was Checked but no luck.

5.  Even setting up the sytem name and UID to what we use on the other
systems had to be manually.  Graphic network didn't give you a clue.

6.  When it shuts down you have to pound on the key-board and try every
key and then after a long time it finally wakes up.  Couldn't what key
did it.
Just don't have time to screw with it.

After spending two days I gave up.
This whole think looks like a very low level business workstation for
the mentally challanged.  Run my IBM computer the way I designed it or
just go away.  You can only run my programs you can download.  Most look
retarded such as "CHEESE" is there a connection between title and
function - its a major stretch of the immagination.

It wants you use a cloud for everything - we don't want to use the cloud
for anything.  Our internet provider sometimes takes a 1/2 hr nap during
the day.  Its very fast when it works.  (Spectrum) - AT in our
location was hopeless, bad service, bad price.

For now we are going to upgrade all systems to SL 7.7 and then look for
a linux that is usefull for real engineering, manufacturing and
business.

The labs should look at building there own.

Any suggestions?

I will go back to work and give up on centos 8.  If I had purchased
RedHat 8 I would be really ped for getting ripped off.

Larry Linder
  

Re: centOS 8

[Dave Dykstra]

Larry,

There are typically lots of rough edges for the first few point releases
in RHEL major releases.  They need people to test and report problems
including instructions on how to reproduce the problems in order to get
them fixed for later.  I wouldn't expect it to be suitable for
production use until 8.2 or 8.3.

Dave

On Wed, Oct 02, 2019 at 05:02:12PM -0400, Larry Linder wrote:
> Nothing should be this hard to configure and set up.
> 
> 1. The install did not recognize two other disks on system.
> if you run "fs" you get a list of disks and a number of /tmp partitions.
> When you try to edit "fstab" it is non-sensical.  Didn't try to run
> "mount" as the man pages are not what you see. 
> 
> 2. Video is basic VGA and it ignored my GForce dual monitor card.
> 
> 3. Tried to install printers and didn't see "cups" even though I
> selected it to install.
> 
> 4.  I tried to run a couple of our linux cad packages and bash could not
> run the process.  Permissions and ownership was Checked but no luck.
> 
> 5.  Even setting up the sytem name and UID to what we use on the other
> systems had to be manually.  Graphic network didn't give you a clue.
> 
> 6.  When it shuts down you have to pound on the key-board and try every
> key and then after a long time it finally wakes up.  Couldn't what key
> did it.
> Just don't have time to screw with it.
> 
> After spending two days I gave up.  
> This whole think looks like a very low level business workstation for
> the mentally challanged.  Run my IBM computer the way I designed it or
> just go away.  You can only run my programs you can download.  Most look
> retarded such as "CHEESE" is there a connection between title and
> function - its a major stretch of the immagination.
> 
> It wants you use a cloud for everything - we don't want to use the cloud
> for anything.  Our internet provider sometimes takes a 1/2 hr nap during
> the day.  Its very fast when it works.  (Spectrum) - AT in our
> location was hopeless, bad service, bad price.
> 
> For now we are going to upgrade all systems to SL 7.7 and then look for
> a linux that is usefull for real engineering, manufacturing and
> business.  
> 
> The labs should look at building there own.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> I will go back to work and give up on centos 8.  If I had purchased
> RedHat 8 I would be really ped for getting ripped off.
> 
> Larry Linder
>  

Re: centOS 8 install crash

[Dave Dykstra]

I've had good luck reporting Red Hat, Fedora, and EPEL problems to
https://bugzilla.redhat.com
even when the problems were observed on Scientific Linux or CentOS.

CentOS has their own bug tracker at
https://bugs.centos.org
although I haven't tried it.

I have successfully installed CentOS 8 in a VirtualBox VM.  It did
become unbootable after I attempted to install the host addons, but I
just installed it again and didn't try to install the addons after that.
The CentOS 8 release notes said that the Addons will "produce an error"
with the VirtualBox version I have without being specific as to what
type of error, but maybe that's what they meant.

Dave

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 10:55:12AM -0700, Konstantin Olchanski wrote:
> Hi, Larry, sorry to hear about your trouble. I wonder why you talk
> about "reinstalling SL6", when you could have popped the SL6 SSD out,
> put a blank one in, try el7/el8/whatever, if it bombs, put your SL6 SSD
> back in. Cost of SSD is zero compared with the time saved.
> 
> On the other hand, I wonder if you see a hardware fault. Over the years
> I came to rely on the SL/CentOS installer as a hardware test tool -
> if I have seen so many cases where we have an iffy machine,
> memtest runs just fine, but the OS installer fails with strange
> symptoms (freeze, nonsense package errors, etc) - replace the RAM,
> and now installer works, machine runs fine - conclusion - machine
> was problematic because of bad ram (bad cpu fan, bad power supply, etc).
> 
> It is not impossible that originally you installed SL6 and all was fine,
> then a hardware fault developed, and now the el7/el8 installer bombs.
> 
> But you do not tell us if you tried several different machines and what
> the actual failure was (freeze, kernel panic, kernel oops, unexpected reboot, 
> etc),
> so maybe you see something else.
> 
> 
> P.S. true, problem reporting to Red Hat has been ineffective for
> the last 10 years or so. On the other hand, I reported a ZFS problem
> to ZFS and got lively replies, some of them even helpful, and got
> my ZFS problem solved. So not all doom and gloom, not everywhere.
> 
> 
> K.O.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 12:52:11PM -0400, Larry Linder wrote:
> > This really off topic but there REL error reporting does not work.
> > It is not a centOS tool but RedHat.
> > 
> > Saturday PM - first failure.  At least we could reboot system.
> > Sunday AM - second failure.  System is dead and SL 6.9 must be
> > reinstalled before Monday.
> > 
> > Tried to install centOS 8 and it gets to point where I sets up disks in
> > classical scheme, so as not to clobber users files, 
> > it asks for root pass word and it crashes.  The crash is reproducible
> > but the result Saturday was recoverable, Sunday's crash is not
> > recoverable.
> > 
> > I checked download for errors and it agrees with their check sums.
> > 
> > Have been a SL user since 4.1 and never seen anything like this.  I wish
> > SL could continue as the centOS 8 is half baked.  You can't send an
> > error message to them !!!  The Red Hat bug reporting tool goes no where.
> > This is why we never used Fedora - you couldn't thrust it.
> > 
> > We had planned to up date our business to centOS 8 but I think we will
> > stick with SL 7.6 and update all system to that level and quit for a
> > year.
> > 
> > I would like to thank all the troops and contributors to SL for an
> > outstanding work.
> > 
> > If anyone know how to forward the error messages to centOS I will try a
> > third time next weekend.
> > 
> > Thank You
> > Larry Linder
> > MicroControls LLC
> 
> -- 
> Konstantin Olchanski
> Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow!
> Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca
> Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada

Re: centOS 8 install crash

[Konstantin Olchanski]

Hi, Larry, sorry to hear about your trouble. I wonder why you talk
about "reinstalling SL6", when you could have popped the SL6 SSD out,
put a blank one in, try el7/el8/whatever, if it bombs, put your SL6 SSD
back in. Cost of SSD is zero compared with the time saved.

On the other hand, I wonder if you see a hardware fault. Over the years
I came to rely on the SL/CentOS installer as a hardware test tool -
if I have seen so many cases where we have an iffy machine,
memtest runs just fine, but the OS installer fails with strange
symptoms (freeze, nonsense package errors, etc) - replace the RAM,
and now installer works, machine runs fine - conclusion - machine
was problematic because of bad ram (bad cpu fan, bad power supply, etc).

It is not impossible that originally you installed SL6 and all was fine,
then a hardware fault developed, and now the el7/el8 installer bombs.

But you do not tell us if you tried several different machines and what
the actual failure was (freeze, kernel panic, kernel oops, unexpected reboot, 
etc),
so maybe you see something else.


P.S. true, problem reporting to Red Hat has been ineffective for
the last 10 years or so. On the other hand, I reported a ZFS problem
to ZFS and got lively replies, some of them even helpful, and got
my ZFS problem solved. So not all doom and gloom, not everywhere.


K.O.




On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 12:52:11PM -0400, Larry Linder wrote:
> This really off topic but there REL error reporting does not work.
> It is not a centOS tool but RedHat.
> 
> Saturday PM - first failure.  At least we could reboot system.
> Sunday AM - second failure.  System is dead and SL 6.9 must be
> reinstalled before Monday.
> 
> Tried to install centOS 8 and it gets to point where I sets up disks in
> classical scheme, so as not to clobber users files, 
> it asks for root pass word and it crashes.  The crash is reproducible
> but the result Saturday was recoverable, Sunday's crash is not
> recoverable.
> 
> I checked download for errors and it agrees with their check sums.
> 
> Have been a SL user since 4.1 and never seen anything like this.  I wish
> SL could continue as the centOS 8 is half baked.  You can't send an
> error message to them !!!  The Red Hat bug reporting tool goes no where.
> This is why we never used Fedora - you couldn't thrust it.
> 
> We had planned to up date our business to centOS 8 but I think we will
> stick with SL 7.6 and update all system to that level and quit for a
> year.
> 
> I would like to thank all the troops and contributors to SL for an
> outstanding work.
> 
> If anyone know how to forward the error messages to centOS I will try a
> third time next weekend.
> 
> Thank You
> Larry Linder
> MicroControls LLC

-- 
Konstantin Olchanski
Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow!
Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca
Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada