Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Konstantin Olchanski olcha...@triumf.ca wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:55:33AM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: On Thursday, June 09, 2011 07:21:29 PM you wrote: The curses based, text compatible system-config-network needs everything a typical desktop or server needs. It lacks some of the foofiness of NetworkManager, but that's both unnecessary and dangerous on a stable desktop or server, as we've seen happen repeatedly for new installations of RHEL based systems over the last 5 years or so. Heh. Why would you want to stick with such an old codebase, Nico? I think the wrong question was asked and a different wrong question was answered. One issue is GUI vs TUI. Gui is okey when you are standing in front of the computer console and the X11 graphics are working and you have a working monitor of reasonable size. And a network connection needing attention is very likely to disable the X services, especially for remote X servers. If you are not standing in front of the computer, you have to tunnel X11 graphics through an ssh tunnel. Okey for a computer in the office next door, but good luck doing this through a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific link. (You say use VNC!, well good luck getting a VNC connection to a computer behind a firewall on the other side of a VPN connection. Hint - it can be done by tunneling a reverse connection (server to client) through an ssh tunnel). Oh, my, you've brought back laughs. I wrote one of the early VNC ports, to SunOS 4.1.x. Yeah, it's fun to get that working internationally or over a messed up network. I've been encouraging a switch to NX from www.nomachine.com, to save money on X servers and get a much better connection than VNC provides. On my side, I have the instructions for setting up new computers written up on a web page. I want to be able to cut-and-paste them to a command line, so authconfig --enablenis --nisdomain xxx --update is cool, but run system-config-users, then push these buttons with mouse is not cool. Now, *THAT* is when it's nice to have a Windows box with a remote serial connection or, if the network is working well, and SSH session. And yeah, being able to configure such settings in an init script or as part of a system update is also prize, especially for clusters or scattered servers.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Friday, June 10, 2011 09:21:43 PM you wrote: One issue is GUI vs TUI. NetworkManager per se does not require a GUI. There is a fairly functional CLI client to activate and deactivate connections, and a pretty well documented set of directives to put in those same flat files that have been used for a very long time in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts that includes useful things. Like this topic's OP found, a useful directive indeed is available to force NM to wait on a particular connection to come up. Also, directives to make the connection 'system-wide' and thus come up at boot and stay up, etc. I think once a really functional CLI and/or a reasonable text-mode 'curses' or similar interface for NM that operates well, then you'll see it become the upstream default. Already there are improvements in EL6.1 in this area. The point being this: if upstream does it, then SL will either need to follow, or will need to maintain increasingly more difficult workarounds.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Jon Peatfield j.s.peatfi...@damtp.cam.ac.uk wrote: The TUV's technical notes for 6.0 say: http://docs.redhat.com/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/html/Technical_Notes/networking.html 5. Networking NetworkManager NetworkManager is enabled by default if it is installed. However, NetworkManager is only installed by default in the client use cases. NetworkManager is available to be installed for the server use cases, but is not included in the default installation. I wonder how accurate this is (in spite of it being in TUV's tech notes!). If you do an SL6 kickstart install with just @base, NM's installed and active. So, unless an @base install's somehow considered a client use install, that statement's for SL6. Fedora's behaved this way for a few releases so it's probably safe to assume that RHEL6 does too.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Friday, June 10, 2011 08:18:47 PM Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote: On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote: Heh. Why would you want to stick with such an old codebase, Nico? [snip] Because it works well over SSH remote connections, [snip] Should I go on? This is an old subject, and I've got plenty more reasons. It may be an old subject, but you might want to refresh your information. NetworkManager can be driven over ssh in text mode *now*, no GUI required. Configuration can still be in /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts, and you can even put directives in those scripts to tell NM to not manage that connection at all. And my remark about an old codebase is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, relative to the 48GB being large for SLC5.6 made earlier, in a different thread. :-)
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Thursday, June 09, 2011 07:21:29 PM you wrote: The curses based, text compatible system-config-network needs everything a typical desktop or server needs. It lacks some of the foofiness of NetworkManager, but that's both unnecessary and dangerous on a stable desktop or server, as we've seen happen repeatedly for new installations of RHEL based systems over the last 5 years or so. Heh. Why would you want to stick with such an old codebase, Nico? The TUI system-config-network is deprecated in upstream EL6 and will at some point in time be removed, once the NM config tools are able to duplicate all functionality. And they are most definitely getting closer. This is part of what going to EL6 is and will be about.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu wrote: On Thursday, June 09, 2011 07:21:29 PM you wrote: The curses based, text compatible system-config-network needs everything a typical desktop or server needs. It lacks some of the foofiness of NetworkManager, but that's both unnecessary and dangerous on a stable desktop or server, as we've seen happen repeatedly for new installations of RHEL based systems over the last 5 years or so. Heh. Why would you want to stick with such an old codebase, Nico? The TUI system-config-network is deprecated in upstream EL6 and will at some point in time be removed, once the NM config tools are able to duplicate all functionality. And they are most definitely getting closer. This is part of what going to EL6 is and will be about. Because it works well over SSH remote connections, headless serial port based access for clusters, virtualized system consoles where GUI's are ill supported and burden the VM and the host, micro-installations, and systems where some sucker installed NVidia drivers, updated their OpenGL libraries, and broke X but hard. It's dealing with flat text files in a well devined, shell compatible format: there is no XML or complex databases to deal with, just some simple configuration files. And if you make a mistake in the network configuration, you again break X services. Should I go on? This is an old subject, and I've got plenty more reasons.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 10:55:33AM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: On Thursday, June 09, 2011 07:21:29 PM you wrote: The curses based, text compatible system-config-network needs everything a typical desktop or server needs. It lacks some of the foofiness of NetworkManager, but that's both unnecessary and dangerous on a stable desktop or server, as we've seen happen repeatedly for new installations of RHEL based systems over the last 5 years or so. Heh. Why would you want to stick with such an old codebase, Nico? I think the wrong question was asked and a different wrong question was answered. One issue is GUI vs TUI. Gui is okey when you are standing in front of the computer console and the X11 graphics are working and you have a working monitor of reasonable size. If you do not have a working monitor of reasonable size, the GUIs tend to fail (usually the OK buttons are below the bottom of the screen). If X11 graphics do not work, GUI is no good (no image on monitor, or monitor complains about out-of-range video settings, etc). (Yes, I can spend the day fixing X11 graphics, but I have better things to do). If you are not standing in front of the computer, you have to tunnel X11 graphics through an ssh tunnel. Okey for a computer in the office next door, but good luck doing this through a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific link. (You say use VNC!, well good luck getting a VNC connection to a computer behind a firewall on the other side of a VPN connection. Hint - it can be done by tunneling a reverse connection (server to client) through an ssh tunnel). On my side, I have the instructions for setting up new computers written up on a web page. I want to be able to cut-and-paste them to a command line, so authconfig --enablenis --nisdomain xxx --update is cool, but run system-config-users, then push these buttons with mouse is not cool. -- Konstantin Olchanski Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow! Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Wednesday, June 08, 2011 05:50:31 PM you wrote: But the ifcfg scripts hardly qualify as a major customization - that's a fairly standard way of doing things across many distros, and in fact the only way you could do it at all until the current release (the old config gui was simply a clunky interface to these very text files). Most of the current 'top 10' distributions are going towards NetworkManager. So NM knowledge importance will increase. Whether that's a good thing or not is left as an exercise for the reader. My biggest gripe is that Debian chose to do things differently (in more than just this area) so that a Debian-based system is rather different than most of the others. However, if only the NM tools are used for config, then that knowledge should, hypothetically, allow the same admin commands to work across the Deb-RH divide for networking even though the backend configs are different. Whether that's a good thing or not is also left as an exercise for the reader. :-) And it's all changed again on F15 (so presumably also SL7 eventually). Yeah, that and the loss of decades-old /etc/inittab knowledge progress in some areas results in deprecation of others. This is true in most fields, but more true in IT than in most others.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On 07/06/11 19:15, Konstantin Olchanski wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 01:44:05PM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: ... The GUI network config tools are all for NetworkManager in upstream EL6. Hmm... I am blind and I do not see any GUI tools for the NetworkManager. What am I supposed to use? (I do see the desktop applet, but I cannot use it unless I am standing in front of the computer logged in as a root user. A neat trick, if the computer is in Japan and I am in Vancouver). The worrying thing for me is when I installed it ifcfg-eth0 was disabled onboot leaving it to me to enable it in networkmanager. Not very useful for a remote install...
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
Nay indeed. I'd also like to note that GUI tools are not so helpful when you're not running X on a server. I have had nothing but trouble with this thing. It sometimes changes from static to DHCP addresses (making computers disappear) and makes even slightly nontrivial configuration (multiple interfaces on different subnets, iptables NAT) difficult or impossible. The first thing I do when I set up a new box is delete NetworkManager. (For remote install, manual package selection should let you disable it.) It's fine for 3G on laptops or whatever, but that's not really the target market of SL. The average SL user's needs are different from TUV's; this seems like a place where some changes to the distribution would make some sense. Best, Andy On 06/08/2011 09:30 AM, James Holland wrote: On 07/06/11 19:15, Konstantin Olchanski wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 01:44:05PM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: ... The GUI network config tools are all for NetworkManager in upstream EL6. Hmm... I am blind and I do not see any GUI tools for the NetworkManager. What am I supposed to use? (I do see the desktop applet, but I cannot use it unless I am standing in front of the computer logged in as a root user. A neat trick, if the computer is in Japan and I am in Vancouver). The worrying thing for me is when I installed it ifcfg-eth0 was disabled onboot leaving it to me to enable it in networkmanager. Not very useful for a remote install...
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
Andy Mastbaum writes: It's fine for 3G on laptops or whatever, but that's not really the target market of SL. The average SL user's needs are different from TUV's; this seems like a place where some changes to the distribution would make some sense. Certainly one of the first things to go into a command line in a new SL install for me is rpm -e NetworkManager Then the next is to edit ifcfg-eth0 appropriately. If you're getting your network config from dhcp anyway, it's all of 4-5 lines and looks the same for most machines anyway. If you're a server admin, you've no need for a gui (or a tui) to set the /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts files options anyway - although I'll admit that I'm running on experience here and that a documented template file would be a very nice thing to have there if you don't already know what the options are. Just something with all the different variables listed but commented out, so someone with vi could go in there and uncomment or fill in what's needed for their setup. Is it worth one making one of the little SL configuration rpms which blows up NetworkManager and creates a default DHCP config, call it something like server-dhcp-networkconfig, so this can happen at install? Would be easy to add a template file to that rpm too. All of FNAL's compute cluster nodes are going to need this anyway for when they eventually go to 6.x or rolling them out will be a nightmare. -- Alec Habig, University of Minnesota Duluth Physics Dept. ha...@neutrino.d.umn.edu http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Wednesday, June 08, 2011 09:45:41 AM Andy Mastbaum wrote: Nay indeed. I'd also like to note that GUI tools are not so helpful when you're not running X on a server. That I'll agree with; thus the cnetworkmanager package wishful thinking (upstream isn't shipping it, at least not yet, and it's not in EPEL. Haven't check ELrepo or RPMforge yet.) It allows full functionality in the CLI. I have had nothing but trouble with this thing. It sometimes changes from static to DHCP addresses (making computers disappear) I'm assuming you filed a bugzilla upstream? Also, in your ifcfg-ethX files you have the ability (that is fully documented in upstream's documentation) to tell NM to not manage a particular interface, but just pull it up. It's just a matter of learning a newer way of doing things. and makes even slightly nontrivial configuration (multiple interfaces on different subnets, iptables NAT) difficult or impossible. The first thing I do when I set up a new box is delete NetworkManager. (For remote install, manual package selection should let you disable it.) My EL6 test box has four eth ports, and I had zero trouble getting them working, on different subnets. But I also thoroughly read the docs and their notes before installing, and noticed the 'Configure Network' button on the hostname dialog while I installed using VNC. Also, this install was an EL6.1, not 6.0, install. It's fine for 3G on laptops or whatever, but that's not really the target market of SL. Target market? It's for scientific and other users who want an EL distribution. That's not exclusively servers. I'm looking at possibly some desktop installs with LABview and MatLab here. Both of those are supported on upstream's workstation offering. One of those desktops will be a laptop. No wireless (we're a radio astronomy observatory; aint' no wifi supposed to be here!), and out far enough in the boonies that there isn't good 3G either. But do realize that the following statement is in the upstream docs: The Network Administration Tool is now deprecated and will be replaced by NetworkManager during the lifetime of ... 6. That means at some point it will be bye-bye system-config-network-tui. I hope they've gotten a text-mode nm-connection-editor by then. Also note: for those who are having issues with network interfaces not coming up post-install, upstream's documentation addresses this, too, in the installation document. If you're installing headless, you really should use the GUI installer over VNC, and on the dialog where you set the hostname is a button to configure network connections during install. I used this installing my testbed system (which is not SL, but is upstream EL6), over VNC, and everything came up as it should during first boot. Oh, and first boot was to runlevel 3, not 5. It's set to init to 5 now, because I actually use that box as a desktop, too. Even though this box will detect the NICs in a nondeterministic fashion (it totally depends on which one initializes first!) I've not had any wandering connections. I specifically tested install with this box since it does have such 'randomizing' in device detect order. Hrmph, right now it has the boot hard disk sitting at /dev/sdaa (not a typo; two a's). Next boot it's anyone's guess where it will come up; and that's ok, the box runs just fine, and all filesystems are mounted properly. And I chose meaningful names, too, for the various subnets. Makes things pretty simple. I don't look forward to replacing a NIC, but, then again, I would have that issue with a manual config, too.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
Lamar Owen writes: I'm assuming you filed a bugzilla upstream? Also, in your ifcfg-ethX files you have the ability (that is fully documented in upstream's documentation) to tell NM to not manage a particular interface, but just pull it up. It's just a matter of learning a newer way of doing things. The big problem with this is that even if you do this, NM returns ok to the startup sequence well before it actually gets around to bringing up your network(*) - then things like autofs and nis fall over. I actually did file a bug back when this behavior hit Fedora 11 (remember, Fedora is TUV's beta cycle) and got no love (although a cleaner workaround than mine was presented): https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=506533 But, since this bug seems to have survived the development cycle I'm happy to reopen this particular against 6. However, I've no desire to reintroduce NM on any of my machines to verify it so would want to turn the bug over to someone who does want to fight the fight, and it also should be checked that it's still a problem in 6.1. Alec (*) - obviously not for everyone if yours works, but relying on a hardware-dependant race condition isn't a very robust solution. -- Alec Habig, University of Minnesota Duluth Physics Dept. ha...@neutrino.d.umn.edu http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On 08/06/11 15:10, Alec T. Habig wrote: Then the next is to edit ifcfg-eth0 appropriately. If you're getting your network config from dhcp anyway, it's all of 4-5 lines and looks the same for most machines anyway. And I always have to create br0 for my virtual machines. But when I reboot, my virtual machines have internet access but the SL6 host doesn't. This is solved by restarting the network or setting selinux to permissive. Not figured it out yet :(
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Wednesday, June 08, 2011 03:24:43 PM Konstantin Olchanski wrote: This is fine if I am the only manager of the computer. [snip] It is best if one could use the tools recommended by, supplied by and document by the vendor - I want to run RHEL/SL Linux, not Konstantin's Linux. [snip] Wow. You get it. Majorly customized systems that are poorly documented are ticking timebombs; and you recognize that fact. Bravo. I agree with your assessment 100%. P.P.S. What about documentation for the NetworkManager? [snip] SL seems to use the ifcfg-rh plugin, so we go to that section, and behold, here are documented all the NM-special ifcfg-eth0 settings. Here is the URL, scroll down to the section ifcfg-rh http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/SystemSettings Thanks so much for all that legwork; this is good information, and thank you for taking the time to pass it on to the list!
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
Lamar Owen writes: On Wednesday, June 08, 2011 03:24:43 PM Konstantin Olchanski wrote: This is fine if I am the only manager of the computer. [snip] It is best if one could use the tools recommended by, supplied by and document by the vendor - I want to run RHEL/SL Linux, not Konstantin's Linux. [snip] Wow. You get it. Majorly customized systems that are poorly documented are ticking timebombs; and you recognize that fact. Bravo. I agree with your assessment 100%. True only to the extent that someone with a RHEL6 cert and no other linux experience would find it easier to drop in and work on the system, which is certainly important. But the ifcfg scripts hardly qualify as a major customization - that's a fairly standard way of doing things across many distros, and in fact the only way you could do it at all until the current release (the old config gui was simply a clunky interface to these very text files). And it's all changed again on F15 (so presumably also SL7 eventually). Thanks so much for all that legwork; this is good information, and thank you for taking the time to pass it on to the list! I certainly agree with this though! -- Alec Habig, University of Minnesota Duluth Physics Dept. ha...@neutrino.d.umn.edu http://neutrino.d.umn.edu/~habig/
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Tuesday, June 07, 2011 11:31:30 AM Konstantin Olchanski wrote: On Mon, Jun 06, 2011 at 11:30:50PM -0400, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote: And rip it out by the roots. NetworkManager is a bad tool in any production environment, even if it's useful for traveling laptops and as an auto-detect tool at OS installation time. Agreed. Yet another works great on the author's laptop product. It's main feature is to stop the network when the user logs out. Great for servers. It is where upstream is going, like it or not. It won't stop the network if that connection is set up as a 'system wide' one. And it was originated by the upstream vendor, not just some random user somewhere. Yes, I did so, but I do not see the usual GUI. system-config-network starts some kind of erzatzprodukt text ui. Where is the old GUI? It's gone. At least on my RHEL6 personal box there is only the TUI version of system-config-network; no GUI. The GUI network config tools are all for NetworkManager in upstream EL6. For the incompatability you mention, see upstream's bugzilla at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=688845 Comment on that bug, or file your own BZ upstream; that's the way to get this fixed long-term. There's not a lot of help in that bug, incidentally, but comment on it anyway.
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 01:44:05PM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: ... The GUI network config tools are all for NetworkManager in upstream EL6. Hmm... I am blind and I do not see any GUI tools for the NetworkManager. What am I supposed to use? (I do see the desktop applet, but I cannot use it unless I am standing in front of the computer logged in as a root user. A neat trick, if the computer is in Japan and I am in Vancouver). -- Konstantin Olchanski Data Acquisition Systems: The Bytes Must Flow! Email: olchansk-at-triumf-dot-ca Snail mail: 4004 Wesbrook Mall, TRIUMF, Vancouver, B.C., V6T 2A3, Canada
Re: SL6: NIS, AUTOFS incompatible with NetworkManager
On Tuesday, June 07, 2011 02:15:14 PM you wrote: On Tue, Jun 07, 2011 at 01:44:05PM -0400, Lamar Owen wrote: ... The GUI network config tools are all for NetworkManager in upstream EL6. Hmm... I am blind and I do not see any GUI tools for the NetworkManager. What am I supposed to use? (I do see the desktop applet, but I cannot use it unless I am standing in front of the computer logged in as a root user. A neat trick, if the computer is in Japan and I am in Vancouver). VNC or xrdp. Both work, and both give complete remote desktop, not just a window with one tunneled app. For a tunneled X app to do it, see if you can tunnel in and pull up nm-connection-editor (part of NetworkManager-gnome package). Once the connection is defined, you might can bring it up with nmcli con $conid up If there are ethernet connections, NM by default gives you 'System ethX' where X is the ethX number, at least here it did for my eth1, eth2, and eth3 ports. I just checked an ssh X tunneled nm-connection-editor, and it's usable. YMMV. Would be nice if the Fedora 'cnetworkmanager' (CLI NM applet of sorts) were there.
