Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
That's a chicken-and-egg question: it makes them both bad... - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:28:52 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide President Woodrow Wilson served as President of Princeton University and was a leading intellectual of the progressive era. He also brought many white Southerners into his administration, and tolerated their expansion of segregation in many federal agencies. He was elected President in 1913 (two years before BOAN was made). I say all this to say Wilson was smart enough to know BOAN was chocked full of lies and he endorsed it anyway. Does that make the movie or the man more evil? ~rave? --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: And President Woodrow Wilson, after seeing a private screening of Birth of a Nation at the White House, called it the most important movie ever made. No surprise: he presided over a lot of decisions that strengthened segregation in a wide swath of American life. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:20:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
One word: exacerbate - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:29:48 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide And, where was our race headed before 1915? ~rave? --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... wrote: That movie changed the course of our race. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@...wrote: And President Woodrow Wilson, after seeing a private screening of Birth of a Nation at the White House, called it the most important movie ever made. No surprise: he presided over a lot of decisions that strengthened segregation in a wide swath of American life. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:20:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Okay, so where's the historical record that Wilson *condemned* this film? that he argued that blacks weren't as portrayed in it? I haven't ever seen those. I know the history: he said things and made moves early on to halfway help blacks (or at least not hurt us), but in short order tacitly, passively and actively encouraged further segregation in this country. And come on: saying he didn't approve the film, but only said he saw the Klan as a natural outgrowth of the lawlessness of the South? What am I supposed to do with that, accept it? It still shows a level of racism, bigotry and insensitivity endemic to white men of that time. And at some point we have to quit saying eveyrone was doing it, it was expedient, and just say it was wrong. - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 3:36:00 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide This is not entirely accurate. Thomas Dixon, author of the source play The Clansman, was a former classmate of President Woodrow Wilson at Johns Hopkins University. Dixon arranged a screening at the White House, for Wilson, members of his cabinet, and their families. Wilson was reported to have commented of the film that it is like writing history with lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true. In Wilson: the new freedom, Arthur Link quotes Wilson's aide, Joseph Tumulty, who denied Wilson said this and also claims that the President was entirely unaware of the nature of the play before it was presented and at no time has expressed his approbation of it. However, Woodrow Wilson's History of the American People explained the Ku Klux Klan of the late 1860s as the natural outgrowth of Reconstruction, a lawless reaction to a lawless period. Wilson noted that the Klan began to attempt by intimidation what they were not allowed to attempt by the ballot or by any ordered course of public action.[11] In the film, approbation for the Klan, citing Wilson's History, is directly quoted. Relentless in publicizing the film, Dixon was apparently the source for the quotation. It has been repeated so often in print that it has taken on a separate life. Dixon went so far as to promote the film as Federally endorsed. After controversy over the film had grown, Wilson wrote that he disapproved of the unfortunate production. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: And President Woodrow Wilson, after seeing a private screening of Birth of a Nation at the White House, called it the most important movie ever made. No surprise: he presided over a lot of decisions that strengthened segregation in a wide swath of American life. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:20:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Mr. Worf, No truer words were ever written on this board before! I salute you sir. Dr. Fate. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 05:20:26 To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Rave, I have to side with B on this one. Fate. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: B Smith daikaij...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 19:24:16 To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
My point exactly B. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:24 AM, B Smith daikaij...@yahoo.com wrote: So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Birth of a nation was seen by all of the important people of the time. That includes Teddy Roosevelt who changed his political platform because of that movie. Stepin Fetchit may not have existed if Birth of a nation hadn't affected so many people. It was also at the time studied by film makers world wide. Still is. That is much more damaging. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: I'll tell you why the dissemination of Stepin Fetchit is more insidious than Birth of a Nation. It is more insidious because it is benign. Birth of a Nation (1915) is one vile movie which, even at its height, was seen by relatively small proportion of the nation's populace (due to lack of distribution and movie screens available in 1915). Lincoln Perry made FIFTY-TWO movies between 1925 and 1976 - movies that had much more currency than Nation ever had. Further, again unlike Nation, which became a cinematic pariah and was rarely seen, Perry's movies became a staple of early afternoon and late night televison in the fifties and the sixties - further disseminating the lie of the laziest man in the world. Many more politicians and employers were polluted by Perry's fifty-two movies than by Birth of a Nation. But, not to lose sight of my original assertion, Birth of a Nation is still a notable cinematic accomplishment - in spite of its content. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, B Smith daikaij...@... wrote: So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
It creates and reinforces negative thoughts. By the time most of the people that are racist or on the border of being racist see the film it pushes them over the edge into racism. You are missing the social effects that this movie had on society at this time. It wasn't a movie that everyone saw but they talked about it. The movie was the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh rhetoric during the election. It caused riots,beatings, and lynchings. Irreversible damage was done to American society and to black people. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Are you suggesting Birth of a Nation is still being studied by aspiring filmmakers as a means of disseminating racism (instead of as a primer for constructing a compelling cinematic narrative - without sound)? ~rave? --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... wrote: Birth of a nation was seen by all of the important people of the time. That includes Teddy Roosevelt who changed his political platform because of that movie. Stepin Fetchit may not have existed if Birth of a nation hadn't affected so many people. It was also at the time studied by film makers world wide. Still is. That is much more damaging. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: I'll tell you why the dissemination of Stepin Fetchit is more insidious than Birth of a Nation. It is more insidious because it is benign. Birth of a Nation (1915) is one vile movie which, even at its height, was seen by relatively small proportion of the nation's populace (due to lack of distribution and movie screens available in 1915). Lincoln Perry made FIFTY-TWO movies between 1925 and 1976 - movies that had much more currency than Nation ever had. Further, again unlike Nation, which became a cinematic pariah and was rarely seen, Perry's movies became a staple of early afternoon and late night televison in the fifties and the sixties - further disseminating the lie of the laziest man in the world. Many more politicians and employers were polluted by Perry's fifty-two movies than by Birth of a Nation. But, not to lose sight of my original assertion, Birth of a Nation is still a notable cinematic accomplishment - in spite of its content. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, B Smith daikaiju66@ wrote: So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
I meant Wilson. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 2:58 PM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Teddy Roosevelt was President of the United States from 1901 to 1909. He was dead in 1919. Birth of a Nation was released in 1915. How, what and who did Roosevelt's alleged change of mind influence? ~rave? --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... wrote: Birth of a nation was seen by all of the important people of the time. That includes Teddy Roosevelt who changed his political platform because of that movie. Stepin Fetchit may not have existed if Birth of a nation hadn't affected so many people. It was also at the time studied by film makers world wide. Still is. That is much more damaging. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: I'll tell you why the dissemination of Stepin Fetchit is more insidious than Birth of a Nation. It is more insidious because it is benign. Birth of a Nation (1915) is one vile movie which, even at its height, was seen by relatively small proportion of the nation's populace (due to lack of distribution and movie screens available in 1915). Lincoln Perry made FIFTY-TWO movies between 1925 and 1976 - movies that had much more currency than Nation ever had. Further, again unlike Nation, which became a cinematic pariah and was rarely seen, Perry's movies became a staple of early afternoon and late night televison in the fifties and the sixties - further disseminating the lie of the laziest man in the world. Many more politicians and employers were polluted by Perry's fifty-two movies than by Birth of a Nation. But, not to lose sight of my original assertion, Birth of a Nation is still a notable cinematic accomplishment - in spite of its content. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, B Smith daikaiju66@ wrote: So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ Post your SciFiNoir Profile at
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
I've seen them both. I feel it's important to see what people are making, even when reprehensible (know the enemy and all). It just bothers me that Gone with the Wind is the top grossing movie in history, as its portrayal of blacks as happy/funny little childlike servants irks me, as does its homage to that glorious old South. Birth of a Nation is disgusting. Both are indeed great filmmaking in terms of the pure mechanics and creativity behind them. But so was the filmic work of the lady who shot Nazi propaganda films. - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:03:40 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
And President Woodrow Wilson, after seeing a private screening of Birth of a Nation at the White House, called it the most important movie ever made. No surprise: he presided over a lot of decisions that strengthened segregation in a wide swath of American life. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:20:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
That movie changed the course of our race. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: And President Woodrow Wilson, after seeing a private screening of Birth of a Nation at the White House, called it the most important movie ever made. No surprise: he presided over a lot of decisions that strengthened segregation in a wide swath of American life. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:20:26 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@... wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo! Groups Links http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
I disagree; or, I don't think it' s productive to argue Birth of a Nation versus Stepin Fetchit. Birth was shown all over the county; whites stood a block long lines to see it. It grossed a phenomenal amount of money and was a hit for months on end. Like I just said in another post, even Woodrow Wilson celebrated it as a tough truth of history. Its influence on white thought--either justifying or engendering their thoughts of black inferiority and savagery, and the rightness of white rule--can't be overestimated. That black actors like Fetchit willingly lent themselves to damaging stereotypes can't be argued. But Birth, by its nature--white actors all playing black in poorly done blackface--showed that even without black complicity, some whites would have found ways to depict us as little more than animals. - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 8:47:10 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Mr. Worf hellomahog...@... wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
Amen! I just posted a similar response. People don't need us to spread their
hatred and bigotry. How many people are aware, for example, that the minstrel
show was for over a generation the single most *popular* form of entertainment
in country? And that was white folk in blackface, acting like fools and
buffoons as they supposedly parodied black folk. Didn't need a single black
actor to cooperate--indeed, in the annals of famous white entertainers form
those days are many white men who made their fortune in blackface.
- Original Message -
From: B Smith daikaij...@yahoo.com
To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 2:24:16 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages
with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin
Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks
and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully
disagree.
--- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Kelwyn ravena...@... wrote:
Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown
away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language.
Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for
drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant.
Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old
Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man
in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than
anything in Birth of a Nation.
~rave!
--- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote:
Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk
and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still
with
us today.
On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote:
Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy,
populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all
costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on
just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W.
Griffith
was a cinematic genius.
~rave!
--- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@
wrote:
In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all
time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With
the
Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty
interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia,
over a
hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit.Â
Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only
eighty-seven
thousand?
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm
Post your SciFiNoir Profile at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo
!
Groups Links
--
Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity!
Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide
In the final analysis, both are poisonous to our portrayal in film, and both are dangerous. I agree it's more viscerally disgusting to see a black man participate in his own belittlement, but Birth was still way more subversive than I think you're saying. - Original Message - From: Kelwyn ravena...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 4:56:28 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [scifinoir2] Re: Avatar Keeps Rolling on Worldwide I'll tell you why the dissemination of Stepin Fetchit is more insidious than Birth of a Nation. It is more insidious because it is benign. Birth of a Nation (1915) is one vile movie which, even at its height, was seen by relatively small proportion of the nation's populace (due to lack of distribution and movie screens available in 1915). Lincoln Perry made FIFTY-TWO movies between 1925 and 1976 - movies that had much more currency than Nation ever had. Further, again unlike Nation, which became a cinematic pariah and was rarely seen, Perry's movies became a staple of early afternoon and late night televison in the fifties and the sixties - further disseminating the lie of the laziest man in the world. Many more politicians and employers were polluted by Perry's fifty-two movies than by Birth of a Nation. But, not to lose sight of my original assertion, Birth of a Nation is still a notable cinematic accomplishment - in spite of its content. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , B Smith daikaij...@... wrote: So the depiction of blacks as childish, chicken and watermelon eating savages with an insatiable lust for white women didn't do as much harm as Stephin Fetchit? Screenings of Birth of Nation directly lead to riots, racial attacks and murders and was used as a recruitment tool by the KKK. Sorry I respectfully disagree. --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Apples and oranges. Still, a remarkable cinematic achievement. I was blown away when I saw it. Griffith practically invented modern cinematic language. Indicting Griffith for the rise of KKK is like indicting Samuel Colt for drive by shootings. Guilty as charged but, still, largely irrelevant. Me, personally, would be more inclined to indict John M. Stahl (In Old Kentucky), the first director to employ Stepin Fetchit as the Laziest Man in the World. This image was wy more destructive to black people than anything in Birth of a Nation. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ wrote: Shot by a genius that was personally responsible for the rebirth of the kkk and the racial stereotypes about black men, and mexicans that are still with us today. On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 5:03 AM, Kelwyn ravenadal@ wrote: Content aside, Gone with the Wind like Birth of a Nation is savvy, populist entertainment. If you are racially sensitive, avoid both at all costs as the narratives will suck you in. Nation is truly remarkable on just a technical basis. It is still a gorgeous looking film. D.W. Griffith was a cinematic genius. ~rave! --- In scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com , Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ wrote: In terms of pure dollars, Avatar will soon become the biggest of all time. (In terms of dollars adjusted for time, sadly, I think Gone With the Wind is still the champ). The country-by-country breakdown is pretty interesting. Australia over thirty mill, France, Algeria and Tunisia, over a hundred, and ninety mill in Russia? Wow, truly an international hit. Even Turkey with eight million. But what's up with Syria: only eighty-seven thousand? http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=intlid=avatar.htm Post your SciFiNoir Profile at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scifinoir2/app/peoplemap2/entry/add?fmvn=mapYahoo ! Groups Links -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
