Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Toby Rider]

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Derek Hoy wrote:

> Bob said:
> > When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry
> > post.
> > They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played
> > retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer.
> > Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the
> > howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?).
> >
> > Ritual. What more can you ask for?
>
> Sleep?



Mountains? :-)


Toby


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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Derek Hoy]

Bob said:
> When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry 
> post.
> They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played
> retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer.
> Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the
> howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?).
> 
> Ritual. What more can you ask for? 

Sleep?

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Carla and Bob Rogers]

> This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the
Changing
> of the Guard stuff I think):
> -
> The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth
century


When I was in high school, we lived at Fort Riley, Kansas, an infantry post.
They played bugle calls several (15?) times a day. Of course they played
retreat to take down the flag, which was preceeded by firing the howitzer.
Every night. That was about 3 blocks from our quarters. They fire the
howitzer when they raise the flag too (6AM?).

Ritual. What more can you ask for? I think I'll put on my kilt now, and
march around the house beating pots...

Bob
South Carolina


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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Derek Hoy]

Stuart wrote:
> The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune
> which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the
> evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. 
> It
> was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle 
> but
> was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary
> players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up 
> to ...

This is from a note to a CD by the Household Division (they do the Changing 
of the Guard stuff I think):
-
The beating or sounding of Retreat has its origins in the sixteenth century 
when it was possibly the same ceremony as Tattoo, 'ye retrete to beat att 9 
att night and take it from ye garde'. A book of 1598 says 'ye Drumme Major 
will advertise (by beate of Drum) those require for watch'. In the 
seventeenth century the Drummers are 'to beate the Retreat through the large 
street and to be answered by all the dummerrs of ye Gardes'.

Nowadays the ceremony, usually at sunset, denotes the end of the working day 
and heralds the mounting of the Guard.
-

There you are then.

My most memorable retreat was at Gleneagles during the 1977 Conference of 
Commonwealth Prime Ministers, when I watched the retreat being beaten with 
Pierre Trudeau.

Derek
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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Bruce Olson]

Jack Campin wrote:
> 
> > I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about
> > "rattlers"--which are sometimes noted as retreats? "Morgan's Rattler"
> > also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong.
> 
> "Morgan Rattler" is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was
> invented.  I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse
> from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline "I lathered her up
> with my Morgan Rattler", which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers
> in mind either.
> 
> Where do you find these "rattler" tunes?
> 
> ===  ===
> 
> Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To 
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See "Morgan Rattler" and variant "Jackson's Bouner Burger" in the Irish
tune index on my website for many copies of each. 

Thomas Hudson's song "Morgan Rattler" was written more than 40 years
after the tune appeared. 

Bruce Olson

Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, 
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw 
or just http://www.erols.com/olsonw";> Click 

Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.
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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Clifford Abrams]

Morgan's Rattler is from an old fife tunebook, spiral-bound of
limited production, now, unfortunately packed away as i put my things
in storage for about a year while i contemplate exactly where to live
in my new location. A long-winded way of saying that i can't remember
the exact title and can't get to it for awhile. I have not
encountered many "rattlers", which seem to be a variety of 2/4
quickstep, but they do seem to be a distinct American form (you're
probably right about the date--though i do think that Morgan may have
been composing c. WWI), and some may be in "Riley's Flute Melodies".
Sorry about guessing about this stuff from my leaky memory, but,
again, the references aren't accessable. PS. Interesting that you
should reply on the message board as i wrote to you "privately".
Either format is fine. Thanks for your reply.
CliffA

--- Jack Campin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about
> > "rattlers"--which are sometimes noted as retreats? "Morgan's
> Rattler"
> > also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong.
> 
> "Morgan Rattler" is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march
> was
> invented.  I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary
> verse
> from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline "I lathered her
> up
> with my Morgan Rattler", which kinda suggests he didn't have
> 3-wheelers
> in mind either.
> 
> Where do you find these "rattler" tunes?
> 
> === 
> ===
> 
> 
> Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List -
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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Jack Campin]

> I guess these are mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about
> "rattlers"--which are sometimes noted as retreats? "Morgan's Rattler"
> also seems to be kind of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong.

"Morgan Rattler" is from the 1780s, well before the retreat march was
invented.  I had no idea it was a genre: there is a fragmentary verse
from C.K. Sharpe's manuscripts with the punchline "I lathered her up
with my Morgan Rattler", which kinda suggests he didn't have 3-wheelers
in mind either.

Where do you find these "rattler" tunes?

===  ===


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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Clifford Abrams]

 I find your observations interesting, especially in that a march
usually listed as a retreat like "Battle of the Somme" seems to
want-- at least for me-- to move along a bit. I guess these are
mostly Amercan tunes, but how do you feel about "rattlers"--which are
sometimes noted as retreats? "Morgan's Rattler" also seems to be kind
of speedy, but maybe i'm playing it wrong.

CliffA

The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time
tune which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as
part of the evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave
way to night ones. It was not linked to the military manoeuvre of
retreating in or from battle but was linked to the idea of refuge and
safety in the camp. Some contemporary players, assuming that the
retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to a  kind of
swaggering, kilt swinging, tempo which robs the airs of the inherent
melancholy quality which many possess.
> 
> I hope this helps illustrate my earlier point.
> 
> Stuart Eydmann

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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Clifford Abrams]

Forgive my ignorance, but what does the word "birl" mean? Thanks.

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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Stuart Eydmann]

Stan wrote:

"Marches should be played at marching speed. Watch people going across the
Millennium bridge. They are all going at more or less the same speed. As you
play pretend you are marching home after you have escaped a bloody, painful
death in a battle you were forced to go to avoid your house being burned. If
you are only a few miles from your loved ones, and you see the hills of home
you'll start to swing into a retreat march, and my won't the tune go, and be
just "right"."

This is, in fact, a good illustration of my suggestion that there are no
universal right or wrongs in relation to tempi in Scottish traditional
music. Take the march, for example. Functional military marching has always
been influenced by the conditions under foot and the situation in hand and
therefore the prescribed tempi varied considerably in time and place. The
introduction of metalled roads in Scotland, for instance, coincided with the
rise of the quickstep and quickest step.

Then there were ceremonial marches which had there own requirements. In
piping the great period of march composition was not for marching at all but
for recital and competition performance with many tunes never intended for
marching.

The adoption of march tunes into the Scottish social dance tradition further
complicated the situation and added to the sheer variety of tempi which can
be employed.

The retreat march is not, as Stan suggests, necessarily a march time tune
which would be marched to - as often as not it was played as part of the
evening ritual in the military camp as day duties gave way to night ones. It
was not linked to the military manoeuvre of retreating in or from battle but
was linked to the idea of refuge and safety in the camp. Some contemporary
players, assuming that the retreat march is to be marched to, crank it up to
a  kind of swaggering, kilt swinging, tempo which robs the airs of the
inherent melancholy quality which many possess.

I hope this helps illustrate my earlier point.

Stuart Eydmann

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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Stuart Eydmann]

Kate responded on my suggestion that confronted with printed fiddle music
some classical musicians see the grace notes and immediately strive to give
them an emphasis and value which they do not deserve or require with
unfortunate consequences for the music stating:

"I have to disagree here because in Cape Breton fiddling there is much
use of emphasized grace notes with real note value.  Or, I should say
that one hears this type of grace note often anyway."

I don't think were are disagreeing too much here. My comments were not aimed
at the music I have heard from Cape Breton or most traditional fiddling this
side of the pond but with that of some classically trained, score-centric
fiddlers (there are quite a few here) whose training and experience does not
encourage listening to/observing the tradition. If, in fast dance music, the
traditional Cape Breton fiddlers are using grace notes which rob the melody
notes of time they are doing so in the context of other traditional musical
factors (which are also denied the classical player - such as the internal
rhythmic ones discussed by Alexander) which taken together produce the
special flavour/character/style which makes the tradition what it is.

As Kate says, the traditional fiddler probably does their own thing anyway
and I would go on to suggest that some do not have a mental concept (I'm
struggling for the correct terms here!) of the music as mapped out in the
conventional notation and that for them grace notes are an integral part of
the melody. This contrasts with the conventional Western convention of grace
notes as additions or emebelishments to the given melody.

I am glad to note that transcriptions are being made of Cape Breton
fiddling. There has been hardly any real transcription of fiddling in
Scotland to date and next to nothing going on at present. There are no
collections based on transcriptions from players most contemporary
publications simply recycling settings from earlier publications. This in
part, is due to the general lack of academic interest in Scottish fiddle
here and the unfortunate opinion abroad in Scottish music circles that the
study and analysis of the music will debase it somehow.

Any other thoughts?

Stuart Eydmann

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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[Kate Dunlay or David Greenberg]

>Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject:
>
>I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr.
>Peter Cooke..." to explain the internal rhythmic variation in
>traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and
>drive." Is it available?

Alexander, we have the Peter Cooke book here and you could borrow it.

Stuart Eydmann wrote:
>The grace note has echoes of the birl discussion of some months ago. Non
>traditional players are often thrown by the presence of grace notes on the
>written page and I think that is what is being referred to here. In most
>circumstances in fast music a fiddle grace note is fitted in without any
>real or apparent robbing of time from the melody note which follows - if it
>is overdone then it just does not sound right.
>
>I think it was CPE Bach who wrote on the "true" way to perform gracenotes
>(presumably in keyboard music) which classical musicians often drag up to
>defend their case. Classical musicians see the grace note and immediately
>strive to give it an emphasis and value which it does not deserve or
>require.

I have to disagree here because in Cape Breton fiddling there is much 
use of emphasized grace notes with real note value.  Or, I should say 
that one hears this type of grace note often anyway.  David and I 
notate them as grace notes with no slashes when we transcribe from 
someone's playing.  I'm not sure how many Cape Breton fiddlers 
actually *read* grace notes this way though -- this would have to be 
investigated.  I suspect that when reading music, Cape Breton 
fiddlers usually ignore most of the extra stuff and substitute their 
own expressions. However, I bet that if a written grace note fits the 
Cape Breton style and is placed in the type of situation in which 
these long grace notes are used, then a Cape Breton fiddler might 
well interprete it that way.  Some Cape Breton fiddlers play even the 
quick type of double grace notes more slowly than others, almost in a 
triplet rhythm.

- Kate D.
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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[SUZANNE MACDONALD]

Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject:

I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr.
Peter Cooke..." to explain the internal rhythmic variation in
traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and
drive." Is it available?

Re the issue of "traditional characteristics"  or "the Scottish Idiom"
as Hunter describes it ; the following may be of  interest to you and
others. The quote from Hunter in your e-mail "Snap bowing is one of the
most fundamental strokes in strathspey playing", continues  "and mastery
of it is essential if the player is to capture the rhythmic drive
inherent in the music". In my experience not a single Cape Breton
fiddler plays or ever did play strathspeys this way. In fact I believe
that it is virtually impossible to play strathspeys this way at "step
dance" tempo, [176 to 184] but you'd be in for a royal fight if you
concluded that CB fiddlers don't play them with rhythmic drive. It is
also interesting to note that Hunter's description of "the Scots snap"
on the same page and the "up-driven bow" on the following page describe
precisely how CB fiddlers execute this bowing.

Alexander

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Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions

[stan reeves]

All this stuff about Tempi is sort of interesting. What is "right", is not
for me as interesting as WHY certain tempi work. Human Physiology dosn't
vary that much (Dinner plates are the same size all over the world).
Understanding tempi is also about understanding its function.
Marches should be played at marching speed. Watch people going across the
Millenium bridge. They are all going at more or less the same speed. As you
play pretend you are marching home after you have escaped a bloody, painful
death in a battle you were forced to go to avoid your house being burned. If
you are only a few miles from your loved ones, and you see the hills of home
you'll start to swing into a retreat march, and my won't the tune go, and be
just "right"
You are playing at a dance and are not sure of the tempo. Dance it through
in your head and pick up the pulse. This of course depends on some
familliarity with the dance and and being a "no bad" dancer. So if you want
to be a dance musician, first learn to dance. Why are reels good at between
108\116 BPM? Moderate areobic exercise, which allows a moderately fat,
moderately middle aged man, to chat up a moderately beautiful partner, while
getting all the appropriate endorphins to kick in to keep you going all
night, produces a heart rate of 108/116BPM. So in theory a good band is so
sensitve to the audience and the audience is so sensitive to the band that a
commomn pulse builds in the hall, and we all get HIGH. Please consult a
whirling dervish to confirm
 AY STAN

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