Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script as some of the right-leaners are about finding Sanskrit connections. Oh say, did you know the Pallavas were the Pahlevis of Iran. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Parthian_Kingdom http://iranian.com/History/2003/May/Pallava/ http://www.hindu.com/mp/2008/03/31/stories/2008033150300500.htm I think there's a line in the humanities (history, philosophy, the arts) that gets crossed often, even by the best minds. When the thinker gets carried away by the utter brilliance of the idea without pausing to consider if it can be substantiated in fact, or whether it has useful outcomes.
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Srini RamaKrishnan che...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Kingsley Jegan Joseph k...@kingsley2.comwrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script as some of the right-leaners are about finding Sanskrit connections. Oh say, did you know the Pallavas were the Pahlevis of Iran. ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Parthian_Kingdom http://iranian.com/History/2003/May/Pallava/ http://www.hindu.com/mp/2008/03/31/stories/2008033150300500.htm I think there's a line in the humanities (history, philosophy, the arts) that gets crossed often, even by the best minds. When the thinker gets carried away by the utter brilliance of the idea without pausing to consider if it can be substantiated in fact, or whether it has useful outcomes. The Lambadis are from Lombard. (insert lungi-tearing joke here)
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 09:29 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script Problem is that there are very profound linkages between Dravidian and non Dravidian Indian languages indicating links that no one has explained properly. The fact that non Dravidian Indian languages (eg Hindi, Bengali) are nowadays classified as Indo European ( formerly Indo-Aryan) is a historic hangover from a European search for roots older than Semitic history (as found in Assyria) which caused much jealousy and heartburn among 19th century European scholars. It was their theories and machinations that eventually led to Hitler's pogroms. When Sanskrit was found in India, it was necessary to include the daughter languages of Sanskrit (such as Hindi and Bengali) along with European languages to claim the antiquity of the Aryan(==Northern European) line, but the linkages between Dravidian languages and Sanskrit, Hindi and Bengali were ignored and sidelined by a cooked up racist story that initially postulated European kinship with the fair complexioned north Indian Brahmin while dismissing the pigmented south Indian as black heathendom. I have a 1910 book that clearly refers to south Indians/Dravidians as black heathendom whose gross corruptions sullied the purity of the Aryans. All this changed after world war 2 when European racism was beaten down to its current dormant state. This racist balderdash was cheerfully swallowed by the fair skinned north Indian upper caste Indians, and later the Church got into the fray to rescue the poor (formerly derided and dismissed as dull by the same Europeans) Dravidians from the clutches of the horrible Aryan Brahmins who had relegated the darkies to their sorry state. An entire political class and Dravidian political parties have been built up on cooked up history. There is no such thing as Dravidian, any more than there is Aryan, although the southern languages tend to be called Dravidian languages. There are links with these southern languages all along the coast up to Gujarat, Sindh and further North - and perhaps as far away as the homeland of the Finno-Ugric languages. So a connection with Sanskrit would not be surprising, given that retroflex phonemes are common to Dravidian and other Sanskrit derived Indian languages but are absent in all other Indo European languages outside India. It is not clear that Mr. Mahadevan is wrong. That may be what upsets people who do not see themselves as right leaners The fact that issues of languages are linked with a political colour is indicative of the fact that linguistics the speciality moved out of science long ago and became political. Interestingly even your reference to right leaners in a discussion of linguistics is indicative of exactly which route these discussions take. shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 9:45 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 09:29 +0530, Kingsley Jegan Joseph wrote: You know, sometimes I think that Mr. Mahadevan may be as over-enthusiastic in finding dravidian connections for Indus script Problem is that there are very profound linkages between Dravidian and non Dravidian Indian languages indicating links that no one has explained properly. What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. And the consensus opinion among contemporary linguists (not Evil European ones of the 1910 vintage) is that South Indian languages (like Tamil, Telugu, etc.) belong to a family of languages different from North Indian languages (like Hindi, Punjabi, Gujarati, etc.). And that there was liberal exchange of words between these languages over the last few millenia. Also, the Tamil (words and grammar) spoken today is significantly different from the Tamil spoken in the Sangam period. To backport the modern similarities between contemporary Tamil and Hindi to Sangham Tamil and Pali is not how Linguistics is done. Thaths -- Homer: Hey, what does this job pay? Carl: Nuthin'. Homer: D'oh! Carl: Unless you're crooked. Homer: Woo-hoo!
[silk] Silklisters in New Haven
Folks, I was wondering if there are any silklisters in New Haven, Connecticut. Do let me know if you're lurking about: I'll be heading that-a-side next week (and will stay put for a while), and would love to catch up. Cheers, Pranesh
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
An entire political class and Dravidian political parties have been built up on cooked up history. There is no such thing as Dravidian, any more than there is Aryan, although the southern languages tend to be called Dravidian languages. There are links with these southern languages all along the coast up to Gujarat, Sindh and further North - and perhaps as far away as the homeland of the Finno-Ugric languages. So a connection with Sanskrit would not be surprising, given that retroflex phonemes are common to Dravidian and other Sanskrit derived Indian languages but are absent in all other Indo European languages outside India. When the Piltdown man was shown to be a hoax, many evolution-deniers used it as an excuse to say that evolution itself is a hoax. Similarly, as we improve our understanding of what race means, some people seem to want to throw out the fairly solid work done in understanding our languages. There are numerous linguistic features that are considered when classifying languages. Prevalence of retroflex consonants in Dravidan languages may often be cited as one, but that's hardly the only reason. Words for primary objects (i, you, he them etc), word order, cases case markers, inclusive exclusive wes, gendering, types of agglutination, negation etc are different enough that they are classified in a different family. The origins of Dravidian politics have about as much to do with linguistic theories as the origin of the Bible belt in the USA had to do with the Bible. Whatever narrative of history is presented, someone will twist it to suit their political needs. They are just convenient origin myths used to teach simplistic views of history. BTW, I just wrote an answer to similarities between Hindi Tamil that you may find interesting: https://www.quora.com/Tamil-language/What-are-some-important-similarities-between-Tamil-and-Hindi
Re: [silk] Silklisters in New Haven
Does this mean you are going to be studying at Yale, Solipsist? I must remark on the modesty of those who go to Ivy League schools. If they are at Harvard, they say Cambridge...if at Stanford, they say, California...if Yale, it's New Haven...someone even told me he's going to Alameda County, I am not kiddingwhy is this? Are these people afraid of the evil eye, or of envy? On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 11:13 PM, Pranesh Prakash the.solips...@gmail.comwrote: Folks, I was wondering if there are any silklisters in New Haven, Connecticut. Do let me know if you're lurking about: I'll be heading that-a-side next week (and will stay put for a while), and would love to catch up. Cheers, Pranesh
Re: [silk] Silklisters in New Haven
On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 3:43 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: Does this mean you are going to be studying at Yale, Solipsist? I must remark on the modesty of those who go to Ivy League schools. If they are at Harvard, they say Cambridge...if at Stanford, they say, California...if Yale, it's New Haven...someone even told me he's going to Alameda County, I am not kiddingwhy is this? Are these people afraid of the evil eye, or of envy? Since thread-jacking is what we do on Silk, this reminded me of my favorite story along these lines. Many years ago, after I had finished my first year of law school at a well known law school in Cambridge, I had returned home to Bangalore to visit my parents. When I arrived from the airport, there was some friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend type person who was visiting my parents, and he engaged me in conversation: Visitor: So, where in the U.S. do you live? Me: In Boston. Visitor: In the city itself? Me: No, actually I live across the river in a neighboring town. Visitor: Oh? Which one? Me: In Cambridge. Visitor, his face lighting up: Cambridge?? That's where MIT is, isn't it??? My MIT friends in particular love that story
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 10:43 -0700, Thaths wrote: What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. Tsk tsk Thaths. I believe you are on the right track here. Would you be able to hazard a guess (or state from any extensive reading you may have done) as to how long the populations have existed side by side and influenced each other? That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. Indeed they do. But your response is disappointingly par for the course, being high on rhetoric and low on substance. I put it to you that you have actually not done any reading in depth and are simply trying to bluff your way out of this one. Please provide references to which tools you believe linguists use that are so powerful. What tools are you speaking of that would specifically demonstrate that the 1910 book reference is a one-off anomaly that can be discarded? I would be happy to see an analysis and critique of these powerful tools from within the community of linguists of which there are many, I can assure you. And do you believe that others must not judge the utility of such tools critically? I think we could have an interesting discussion here. The subject is a minefield and worthy of some debate, if it opens more eyes about what linguists have actually been doing rather than the run of the mill indignant responses that appear with boring regularity. Linguistics is full of angry people ready to fight. I would be happy to tell you what I think about any powerful linguistic tools that you may care to list. If you consult Uncle Google for that, I would be equally happy to see if you can come up with references that I have not looked at yet and judge them for myself. shiv
Re: [silk] [intro] Hello people of silklist!
On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:38 AM, SS cybers...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2013-09-06 at 10:43 -0700, Thaths wrote: What is to explain? For populations to exist side by side exchanging cuisines, culture, genes and words is self explanatory and not profound. One sees Tamil and Malayalam blending in Palghat. Telugu and Tamil blending in Tirupathi. There are many more such examples. Tsk tsk Thaths. I believe you are on the right track here. Would you be able to hazard a guess (or state from any extensive reading you may have done) as to how long the populations have existed side by side and influenced each other? Tamil Telugu are epigraphically attested (in Asokan edicts) neighbours since at least about 200BC, but likely at least 500 years before that, so you're looking at a contnuum of about 2500 years. Tamil and Malayalam were basically dialects of the same language till about 1000 AD. But Palakad is a special case - apart from being a fusion point, like Kanyakumari, the Palakad dialect was heavily influenced by the migration of Brahmins from the Chola country between the 14th 18th centuries. It preserves some very interesting snippets of the Vaisnava Paribhasha from that time that have been lost among Tamil Brahmins. That said, linguists use tools more powerful than anecdotal books published in 1910 to support their case. I think we could have an interesting discussion here. The subject is a minefield and worthy of some debate, if it opens more eyes about what linguists have actually been doing rather than the run of the mill indignant responses that appear with boring regularity. Linguistics is full of angry people ready to fight. I would be happy to tell you what I think about any powerful linguistic tools that you may care to list. If you consult Uncle Google for that, I would be equally happy to see if you can come up with references that I have not looked at yet and judge them for myself. This page contains a good list of approaches linguists use to understand words: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_linguistics . But if you really want to get deep into their application in practice, read some of Michael Witzel's published work (mainly because his work is on Sanskrit, which should be more accessible).
